Knowledge Fight - #853: Chatting with The Squatch Guys

Episode Date: September 29, 2023

In this installment, Dan and Jordan chat with Solomon Berg and Daniel Jordan (aka Barry and Andrew), the two gents behind the riveting Ambassador saga on Project Camelot.  The conversation gets into all manner of revelations one might come to by entering the the paranormal conspiracy space, and if the strategy of stealthily injecting reality into unreal spaces has any promise.

I Rettler Rettler Rettler Rettler Rettler Rettler Rettler No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, It's time to pray. I have great respect for knowledge. I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys. Chang-E are the bad guys. I know you can fight. And enjoy the knowledge. Fight. Need money. And the end of the game. And the end of the game. And the end of the game. And the end of the game. And the end of the game. So Alex, I'm a fifth and I'm a fifth and I love your world.

Knowledge fight. Not knowledge fight. I love you. Hey everybody. Welcome back to Knowledge Fight. I'm Dan. I'm Jordan. We're a couple dudes. Like sit around at the ultra of saline and talk a little bit about Alex Jones Oh indeed we are Dan Jordan Dan Jordan. I have a quick question for you sir. So what's your right spot today, buddy? My bright spot is fall is right around the corner. Fall possibly upon us. Is it yes?

And that means one thing and that is Where there's originals green apple is back So good I've literally never heard of them so good. I found them last year where there's originals, green apple is back. So good. I haven't really never heard of those. So good. I found them last year where there's originals, Chooey, you know, not a hard candy. Oh, don't like Chooey.

But it's a caramel apple flavor and it works perfectly. It is so good. So good. All right. I was at Marshall's the other day with friends of the show, Marty and Sarah. Yes. And I found this and I got very excited. And Sarah was like, well, if you like it, you should get two bags.

It because she's an enabler. Sarah is the most Sarah thing to say. And I fell for it. Of course you did. I got two bags because she's the devil. Yes. And another thing that's it, Marshalls, look at this. We're not doing just the tip waffle cone tips.

Uh, just the tip, the best bite is the name of it. That's a dick thing. Haven't you, you've seen that before? I had never, until like two weeks ago, me and Sarah went to Marshall's. Look, here's the thing. Okay. Michaels, the craft store is under, it's a floor under Marshalls And so she and I have gone to the craft store to get some fake plants for my walls and stuff

Shush, Shush, Shush, Shush, and so she's wanted to go to Marshall So we've gone to Marshall's both times that we've gone first time I saw the just the tips and I got furious Uh-huh, and I we met up with you afterwards. Yes, and I yelled at you about you did and so quite some time And so then we went back the other day and I got some. I bought the bag because I was like, I had to have made it up.

Yeah. And I didn't. It's right here. It's right there. And they're good. All right. They need to change their name. It's a fact.

To what? Balls deep. That's the only one that makes sense. Anyway, what's your bright spot? My bright spot is there's a documentary series called Telemarketers. Who? And it's about, it's really, really good.

Is it about telemarketers? Yeah, but a specific kind. There's all these interesting characters who or like former felons couldn't get a job anywhere, but this cold calling center, right? And one of the guys was was really, really good at and then starts unraveling this mystery that it's tied. Dan, I'll watch it. I don't tell you everything else. It goes to the top. I'll watch it. That sounds very interesting. I'm worried that if you say anything more, it'll give it

a give way. It's telemarketers. there's some really, really HBF. Okay, yeah. I think I have a password, if not, I'll steal yours. Take that streaming services. You'll never catch us. Support the workers. The pirate bay. So, Jordan.

Yes, Dan. Today we have an episode to go over. But we're not going over anything. We're talking to some people. Oh, no. Now, generally, interviews are your territories. I've been doing them so low recently. I do appreciate you doing them because with this Europe trip, especially, it really does help take a little bit of the burden off with

having to prepare these episodes and get ready and stuff. So kudos and a tip of the cap. Thank you very much. But today, it was an interview that it only seemed right that we both and we both had to be there. Yes And that is of course we are interviewing Solomon Berg the major who is a friend of the ambassador Sasquatch Mm-hmm and Lieutenant Daniel Jordan the two guys who Who did that? Yeah, and you know, I think some people will maybe think there's a slightly hypocritical of me,

but we address some of the reasons why I think it's not hypocritical to interview them, though their experiment and what they did by going on project Camelot is definitely something that I don't advocate the people do. Yeah. But I do think that it's still What they were aspiring towards and the kind of messaging that they were trying to inject into it. I think that justifies

having a Decompressing session to be debriefing because they're There you go with them and interesting dudes Yeah, I would say that whatever judgment you may have on like, uh, should, shouldn't, yes, no, but it's a very interesting conversation worth listening to. And it's a point of view that's worth hearing out. And I think that all the criticism that would be, uh, levied would be towards me. And I always say, if you think that it's hypocritical of me, I appreciate your position.

I respectfully disagree. Yeah. But also we are four people and it's on a Zoom call. And so it's intense sometimes. I want to apologize a little bit for some crosstalk and maybe some sound stuff, but you know, it's fine. It's worth listening to. But we'll be back, uh, after, uh,

another episode, I don't know, we have to do a beginning and an end right now. I enjoy the episode. Do we do? Is that what we do? Hey, everybody, Jordan, yes, Dan, we are currently on our tour, uh, in the UK, but uh, across the ocean. Yes, when you're listening to on our tour in the UK, but across the ocean. Yes, when you are listening to this, that will be the case. But for now, we are still in Chicago and we are joined by a couple of folks

who have a little interview. This is a strange interview to have because a couple of things, one, I didn't, I didn't think this conversation would, whatever happened. I thought this was going to be a dangling thread that would live as sort of a mysterious. Everyone knows what happened, but no one, you know, there's never a debrief conversation about it. Yeah. full closure seemed like something that would almost be preferable not to have. Well, in a, in a, in a movie, yeah, this is a like sunset, like, you know, this, this is a Kaiser Soze walks away.

Yes. Yeah. And lip goes away. Yeah. Yeah. But then the other reason is, I think I may have been a little bit unfair about these, these, these folks. And I would like to, before I introduce them, start with the slight apology that I was, I was pretty harshly critical.

And maybe it had to do just with one failed bit. But joining us is Solomon Berg from the project, Camelot episodes about the ambassador, Sasquatch, also known as Barry, and Lieutenant Daniel Jordan, also known as Andrew. Jens, thank you for coming on. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having us. Absolutely. First voice was Solomon and the second voice was Daniel Jordan there, just to be clear on who everybody sounds like. So, I am I'm sure everyone is interested in like the full story and I'd like to get into your intentions and how you came up with this. But where would you like to start?

What's foremost on your all's mind? Andrew is the one actually who introduced the sparrows to the game, Solomon. Andrew is the one who introduced me to Knowledge Fight about almost like two years ago, roughly. And so I kind of want him to start that part of the story and then I'll kind of jump in when it seems relevant. Sure. So Andrew, you did not appear on Project Camelot

as a performer, as it were, but you were more conceptually crafting some of the idea from my understanding. So I'm a pretty long time listener, I'd say I've been listening for about three years and at Thanksgiving two years ago All the cousins were hanging out Introduced Barry to the show and told him in particular there was some episodes that he might have a particular interest in It's more of a sci-fi angle to them. I'm called project project Kamalot and sort of that was the introduction And we kind of just went from there and a few months later,

I believe it was an episode 200. In fact, I know it was an episode 200 of yours. Jordan makes an off-hand comment about, wouldn't it be great to have a squash murder mystery or something to the effect and introduce that to Kerry. And so that just sort of rattled around in my brain and I just couldn't get rid of it and brought the idea up to Barry. And we sort of just went from there in terms of the origin story is that's pretty much it.

Came with you guys actually. That's one of the bizarre things that we have accidentally created. But if everybody walked around turning off hand things that I said into real life, I would have left a swath of destruction on this planet behind me. Yeah. And I would like to say too that if you had only done like some, some form of that, like a squash murder mystery that was like an elaborate joke or a prank or something, I would not probably want to have a conversation with you all because I would, I think if you was, what you did was purely prank based, there's kind of a harshness and

a cruelty to it, but it was so clear from listening to the way that information was conveyed, the way that there was a very concerted effort to make sure that when you'd talk about aliens and stuff, there wasn't monolithic groups of them. It was so clear that there was something else behind it. There was messaging behind it. And, you know, when did that develop? How did that idea develop as you were going from Sasquatch murder mystery to what ended up becoming the reality?

Well, Barry, I mean, I'll just say there was a definite theme at least in the beginning of a Jewish alien. And both obviously Barry and I are Jewish. And not practicing particularly for myself, I'll say, but that, that was a sort of road that we decided to go down. And I will say before we get into it is, you know, some parts of Berge were intentionally absurd to both directions so it was you know you he had left his ideas but at the same time you know he was forced to wear sort of the garb maybe of a right wingerer, so but Barry, do you want to sort of take it away? Yeah, so my conception, you know, I, we were talking about, you know, the references to Squatch, you know, in episode 200 and saying, like, well, you know, we should involve

Squatch somehow. And when I was about 11, so So first of all, backstory. When I was a kid, like in my like three, teen years and teen teens, I was like caring. I believed in a lot of UFO stuff and Ross well and the grays or rather I wanted to, you know, I was like a lot of friends. Yeah, and you know, I was always into science fiction and kind of the bigger cosmic picture. And I, you know, but being a kid, you're not really trained yet to discriminate, you

know, sources. So as an 11-year-old, I just enjoyed buying weekly world news from the drug store. And I remember one time, in like fifth grade, I was browsing the magazine aisle and picked up the week world news. And there was a story in there about a farmer siding, flying saucer waving, and like an army of task squatches walking out, so the image being that these squatches were in that alien.

And so that was kind of in the back of my head when I was in the squad, and immediately I kind of just said, well, what if squatch I kind of desenable. What if squash is kind of a pseudo Jewish space alien like from a diaspora people? And you know, our human characters who became Solomon Berg would be like a Jewish Randy Kramer, like a Jewish super soldier.

Who also looks up to Randy Kramer, of course, as a hero. And that's funny because when Terry brought up Randy and some of his discrepancies between my story and his, my response to her in part three in our third interview was essentially well, Randy's older than me. He was on Mars' authority. The perfect logical explanation within the absurd context. Yeah. Yeah, the perfect logical explanation within the absurd context. Yeah, even in the first one you're talking about like he was a soldier.

I'm in like support core. Like there is a built in. Yeah, built in explanation for it. So I did actually study anthropology and comp. I anyway, I went from being like a preteen or a teenager who really hard forberleaved to by the time I was 18, I was more of a rational skeptic, those off the materialist. And I studied anthropology in college, although I did not be a common anthropologist in practice. I'm sure everyone wants to know what a Salmonberg's actual day job is. I am an outpatient therapist

and the director of a mental health clinic. Interesting. So I do therapy. I supervise staff who provide therapeutic and behavioral services to adults and children. I'm a social worker by training. You know, I used to be like a one-on-one, you know, the kids, what they call a TSS, they're a sports staff and then I was a blended case manager and I did child welfare. You know, it's interesting that kind of- That makes sense.

Actually, you know, I wouldn't have guessed it, but it makes sense, Actually, you know, I wouldn't have guessed it, but it makes sense. The ability to empathically or empathetically communicate with carry the way that you should. Yeah. And then on top of that, the history of studying anthropology makes sense because there's a lot of stuff that it's like, well, this would be hard to just like cram and then be able to discuss in a conversational manner.

Yeah, only a pair of philanthropists can do this. Yeah. Or someone at least with some background in anthropology. So, you know, a transition from anthropology under Brad to work if you would services not all that uncommon. You know, I ended up going back to grad school and we're good going to grad school and getting my NSW. And now I have a couple more letters after my name. But I don't want to get too specific because I don't want anyone's like, I didn't find it personally. Yeah, that's a board. I'm a seas key.

But when during the time that I was in grad school, I also got very actively involved in a lot of like, gravel left, street organizing, direct actions and some labor organizing. As you can see by the tattoo, I, I, so actually my best experience in democracy was I was a founding member of the Philadelphia IW.

And early on when we formed the branch, we, I was involved in writing when we formed the branch, I was involved in writing a by-law that clarified the definition of a boss who was not allowed to join IWU and wrote this amendment that we passed and later forced me to leave the organization when I became a boss. I still consider myself an anarchist. I still consider myself a ideologically an anarchist, although it's a little hard to practice anarchism when I am a management. These are the rubs, you know.

Well, you know, you got an in capitalism, you have to survive, and then I had to survive by moving up. And, you know, I'm good at what I do. And I love doing it. And you don't have to be a hypocrite too. Like you can take your position and deal with people underneath you in a way that you would approve of.

You know, like there are ways that you can do it better than someone else perhaps. but maybe not ideologically pure to some. Probably the one of the lesser evil bosses. Now that's good enough. Yeah, I was involved in second against the all when the revolution comes. So you can tell you can tell he supports trans youth from his deeply, deeply held position. So that was actually my statement to carry. That was an ad live and I was exactly slightly. I have been a state witness in child abuse cases.

And I have worked with children who were trafficked or groomed or otherwise sexually exploited. But it's not like that broken up child trafficking rings or some high level stuff like that. It was more like I was an advocate for it's. Well, I'm not going to make it. It's a be a barrier to them. It's a frustrating, it's a frustrating conversation to have with Kerry and we've worked at it so many times with her both both both on the show and off the show. She communicated in a way that was it was like a string of right wing talking points. And it was, you mentioned the Barry's patience.

It was, it was amazing and it was required. And every, every method of communicating with her, even getting her attention at first was incredibly difficult. And she became erratic in terms of communication and in terms of her requirements. And so it was a patient's testing operation. That's that's where I would like to ask this question. How did you begin to talk to Carrie? Like, what was the we're getting on the show like? So we contacted her first on Telegram and I had drafted some, you know, kind of, you know, manic statements about, you know, my eye opening experiences with expert

rats for y'alls and with being, she might know, it's the Sasquad for Getty. And when she proved to be kind of hard to get her attention on telegram, we actually switched to WhatsApp. So I was communicating with her through WhatsApp, primarily. It took months to get any response at all from her. Yeah.

After initially reaching out through the channels that she had designated as how to get a hold of me reach out to me here XYZ. And it was just not work. I can empathize a tiny bit with her situation because even as like for me, it's difficult to, you know, I can't get back to everybody who sends an email. And I'm sure that the things that she gets from people are substantially closer to I know Sasquatch than the emails that I get. Like I'm sure she hears a ton of, you know, various claims. And her telegram channel is literally a nonstop garbage fire as are her online distribution methods.

So like she has a rumble and as a sort of a fun thing, we would go back and read some of the comments both on her Facebook lives, her rumbles on her website. And it is just a neo-Nazi dumpster fire. Yeah, a lot of people didn't like you guys. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, we took a lot of fun back on reddit. I think I'm going to leave those comments. I could not stand to look at those comments. I did follow

the conversation among wands on reddit and discord but I didn't engage. I never interacted with anyone who was discussing burger squash. I just observed and held back and practiced some incredible self-restraint who's kind of difficult at times, but. I imagine so. No, sorry. The desire to defend himself must have been huge. Or to tell like this is the point of this thing,

this is the point of this thing, while people are speculating, you know. Yeah. And they're telling us that we're moving our own favorite podcasts, you know. I didn't actually figure it out. I was a social worker. There was one Reddit thread that put the pieces together

or they were like speculating, or like, because someone was like, he does sound like maybe he actually works in the field of anthropology. And someone else was like he sounds more like someone who took four years of anthropology as an underbatant then went on to some kind of cute surface field like maybe some sort of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or an advocate or an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate or some kind of an advocate shockingly close guesses. That one blew my mind. That one was, I was honored and laughed so hard. Another one that blew my mind,

and this is mostly, well, it's actually all three times that he appeared on Kerry's show. She very earnestly, I think, at the end, made sure that he would be receiving, and we heavily encouraged all communications that Kerry received to pass those messages along. And boy, that is a treasure trove of stuff

because those are only the people who are the most true believers sending her. Please send him the phone number of this person who has the antidote to the toxins that he's suffering from. That's so. It was Stella and manual phone number. That's that's it.

That's it. That's it. You need that. It's the worst. Yeah. You want to take your doctors recommended. Yeah. You should clear you the demons and make sure you don't get any more vaccines.

It's going to be great. Yeah. Exercise the spirit of the reptile venom. Yeah. I didn't see, and I granted, I probably didn't look too deeply. I didn't see a lot of like bigity comments about your appearance, but there were a fair amount that like it was pretty clear that the message that you were putting into your story about your experience with Squatch didn't resonate as they say with them. And it was too empathetic and too caring in some ways. And it was just like, this is bullshit. This guy, he's not seen an alien.

This guy doesn't want a million people to die. It was kind of gatekeeping almost even of that space. Well, but that goes to actually my whole theory of carry. And I think Andrew and I have somewhat different appraisal of carry than you enjoyed in my. Well, I mean, you have more first-hand experience. So I would be interested to hear. We would speculate, you know, how much and to believe our versus the grip your is carry, right?

And by the end of this experience, my impression is that I think carry has her own beliefs about the secret space program and you have those nailings and stuff. And maybe some of that is very influenced by like Ashianna Dean and obviously Mark Richards and Patrick go to sources. Although I think she and Ashianna Dean have only sort of superficial things in common. Ashianadins, conception is much more new age and carries it as much more like militant, you know, sci-fi-ish. But I think Harry sees herself as the curator of the weird. I think she sees herself as

a kind of gay keeper and she sees it as her mission to sort through the 80% of bullshit to get to that 20% of truth. And I think I did just some research and uncovered some things about her former partner, Go Ryan and his involvement with something called Project Surba, which was a host engineered by a guy named Rick Doey, who appears from as far as I can tell, to have been a former Air Force officer, this inspection investigation officer, who was like a Cold War-y or a propagandaist who was part of, you know, during the Cold War, the intelligence community and military tells them we're very concerned about the community of alien of ducks and believers and UFO people,

because they felt it poses a security risk that these were global people who now had access to increase in sophisticated surveillance technology and were trying to uncover things about UFOs that actually might have led them to chance upon up like actual real stuff the military was working on like the big anti-communication systems and stuff like that.

And they said they felt that Soviet infiltration could happen. That was their concern. They felt that this group of people could easily be cultivated as foreign assets by Soviet or Chinese intelligence. And so there were counter surveillance programs conducted by the government on these communities, much as there were similar to Colin Taufreau, against the anti-war and Black liberation movements. So to the extent that this group feels they've been persecuted, well, there

is some truth to that that because people like Doty were involved in engineering, post-IS and gaslighting by the citizens and this, you know, if there's a good documentary called The Rochman by Mark Wilkinson that goes into this, that is important. The Roch. Did you see him saying, I know that. Oh, sorry, I'm sorry.

I just got worked with Bill Ryan on something. Is that what you're saying? I think there's one degree of separation between Kerry Cassidy and Rick Dovey and that is Bill Ryan, because Bill Ryan was the web master for this, the project's server, which was a, a hoax that claimed, I don't think he knew it was a hoax. I think he was Duke by Doty. Doty's cousin was flown in the late 80s at a UFO conference by a urologist and he

had manipulated. And then he had to fight his way out of the conference. So no, no, no, he wasn't at the conference himself, but this cover got blown. And I think at that point, you know, the Air Force office, that's from the discussions cut ties with him. And he kind of pitched his star to like post to co-stay. Yeah, I'm in the UFO community and became, you know, went from being an actual government propagandist to just another Richter.

And he's actually been on post to post, I think one of the shows he was on was the same show as like Whitney Scriber was on. But I know that I'm pretty sure he manipulated into Orion. So I don't know if he and Carrie have actually ever met, but one thing Doty would always say was, you know, 80% of what I say is lie, so 20% is the truth. And that's how you sell a lie is you package it with truth.

And I think that's very, I like some kind of odd stuff. Well, I think through some kind of odd's most, just Carrie probably had thrown a life that, maybe go lie and repeat it to her or something like that. But I think that's the way Karen sees her content. And I think that Harry doesn't actually believe any of the very contradictory stories that the guests tell. Like I don't think she believed Captain Jay one day.

There's a, you know, I think. There seems to be like a, there seems to be like a, a whole industry sort of grown up around Carrie of, yes, Anting her. And obviously we participated in that. But I've noticed when she has guests on her show. They sort of let her,

they just kind of let her go. They let her speak and they say, wow, yes, Kerry, really, you know, and so when I, when we, we first started listening to her through knowledge fight, I thought for sure she was a true believer. I thought we were both Barry and I pretty sure close to 100% belief. And I think by the end of the whole project, we're both at zero percent. We don't think she believes I'm very close to zero. I mean, close to zero. Just because she's a grifter at the end of the day. Either way, if that's, whoa. I see, I think I if I understand very correctly, what you're saying is that she is willing to enter

or like she doesn't believe the bullshit that she lets her guests spew. Like when Eddie is just like you're a billion, you know, like this. Oh, yeah, but she still believes weird space stuff. She's not like she's in reality and is grifting outside of reality. She believes whatever from reality.

But whatever, yeah, whatever, whatever will make her the most money, I think is what she believes. And I think from my experience of watching, you're motivated by money and I'm interested in influence. And I think that there is a like one, she, from what I've seen, when interacting with a guest who's making a claim kind of goes along with it for the most part, unless it interacts with something that Mark Richard says said or a she on a Dean, like if it contradicts those kinds of things, then there'll be some pushback. But other than that, it's just I'll believe anything kind of.

Yeah. And she's she writes her own stories like, and I don't know if you ever saw the third time we went on her show, but when we went on, I will say, I watched about the first hour of it. And then I had to move on to something else and I never got back to finishing. But just, yeah, I apologize.

That's fine. Something that she mentioned though, was sort of characterizing Bergs initial or characterizing a prior statement that he had made about, specifically about Israel and whether Israel had was run by the Anunnaki. And Berg had very clearly said, yes, there's some Anunnaki in the Israeli government, just like there's some Anunnaki in any government. And the issue was not necessarily with the people of Israel,

but a very select number of people in the government, turned into later in the last episode, Israel is completely run by the Anunnaki. And she's, I remember from your prior interview, when you said that Israel is completely run by the honor not, which is the exact opposite of what he said. I went back and watched the video and it's like, that's just so you're right, she'll push back in certain things.

And some things, she'll just rewrite in the moment because the audience that she's speaking to is an instrument, you know, insert. And where's never going to fully deconstruct Harry's anti-Semitism? Yes, sir. I would characterize her as having as an average white lady with average white lady racism and average white lady anti-Semitism filtered through UFOs and conspiracy theories. But when, you know, when she, I've watched some of her other stuff

and she has gone so far and I think even one of your Accels covered this she's gone so far as to say that Jews have anonaki blood or that the Jews are descended from Anonaki So she's literally saying Jews are lizard people. Yeah, and there's a there's a tradition throughout some of this paranormal Yeah, and there's a tradition throughout some of this paranormal community stuff that I'm not sure exactly where it traces back to, but you know, there are some schools in it that just believe that Hebrew peoples come from space. You know, like there is, and that does not exist for like people of Hispanic descent. You know, like that doesn't exist within these paranormal and alien worldviews. There isn't there isn't that isn't described to other groups.

There is a uniqueness to the anti-Semitism that gets filtered within this. Right. Because of because of Jews historical connection to, you know to religious texts that are canonically part of mainstream Christianity. I think there's, if you're trying to integrate mainstream Christianity with some kind of pseudo materialist understanding of the cosmos, then it's kind of, you know, if you're, if you're raised in even a vaguely anti-Semitic culture, and maybe you're not fully aware of it, there is that kind of knee jerk or compulsive, you know, go to of like, well, you know, maybe,

you know, the Hebrews of the Old Testament were influenced by aliens or descended from aliens or engineers by aliens or I actually remember one of my journey in my teens from being a believer to a skeptic involved going to the grips or where years ago I had discovered the now-bontanican books and finding another book with a very similar cover from the same publisher called The Lost Tribes from Outer Space and the original French title was The Jews from Space. And it was actually somewhat, when I read it, the idea isn't it, we're somewhat similar to like realism, realism, but way more anti-Semitic. And of course, the first, you know, chapter of book explains why it's not anti-Semitic. Yeah, Oh yeah.

As somebody who's been reading a lot of John Birch society materials in the last like couple years, I will say that the most anti-Semitic and racist books often start with a chapter about how they are not anti-Semitic and racist. Yeah. You might need that for a library fight. I gotta say that's essential. Yeah. You need to be on the show. Oh, I can find a copy of the Jews from space.

I'll send it to you. That would be awesome. My mom just sent me a guidebook for the Masons that apparently like her great uncle was in the Masons that apparently like her great uncle was in the Masons and so now I have a little it looks almost like the size of a pocket Constitution but it's much bigger and it's a guide book for the Masons and it's mostly like here's how you fold a shirt. It's like we didn't do it for a Masons. It's not me writing? Nope. Nope. It is not secretive at all. It is boring as shit. Here's where you place the candles.

All right. That's actually. OK. No, go for it. What were you going to say? Well, I was going to say like the trappings. Kerry's trappings was very important. And it was one of the things that I thought Barry did a great job on was he knows the

knowledge-fight coverage of Kerry's various iterations, like almost probably better than you guys remember it. I mean, so he would use, definitely. He would use, yeah, I mean, he was using, you know, he would insert her story back at her and have those trappings which enabled him to get the messaging in. And so I thought that was a really important part of it, like telling the story of the, what was it, the dogs buried the, oh, the, the mark, the mark, the mark, the dog story. And that was, right, referencing back to her stuff was the key to her heart and

it let you in and then that's where you could sort of make your own stuff. It gives her the feeling of like being influential and important and then at the same time it also like it creates a scenario where in order for her to contradict you she has to contradict herself kind of. And that's exactly that's a bizarre place to be in. And I think Terry, you know, has just enough self consciousness that like she knows there are certain things she can't push back on when she has a Jewish guest. Because there were things I could say on her show that she couldn't push back on. I was laughing at the end of the program. She was presenting the ask an expert.

She was presenting me as a scientist. So one thing, you didn't mention this on your show, but one thing, if you watched the full cut videos, one thing that has always hurt me in science fiction, fantasy is the conflation of race and species by writers. And it's essentially just scientific racism and it reinforces racism in the real world when like, oh, Babylon 5, you know,

the gnar in this tutorial race is not species. No, they're species. They evolve on different planets. They are not genetically related. They cannot hybridize. They are alien species, not alien races. And this is a trope in sci-fi and fantasy, but we're mostly mostly on sci-fi right now,

because that's the more scientific of the racisms. And so Kerry was having me on, presenting me as an expert anthropologist, expert in human evolution and biology and biological and cultural anthropology. So she couldn't quite argue with my expert opinion because she was hosting me live without the ability to edit. And she and I don't know. She didn't know why she does that. Yeah, that does seem unwise.

But he also knows so much. It's not great editorial judgment. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But anyway, let me just put it for a quick. So pardon me. So it's right. So my point being, she, one thing I kept doing when she would say race and she was referring

to alien species was I would say species, human species, at one point I broke down a couple times for her. We're talking about biological species, not race, race is not a side of the concept. And there's one point where she kept saying race and I kept saying species, species, species, until she started self-correcting. I somehow don't remember that. That's fascinating. I- This happens several times.

It was something that bird was extremely 100% insistent because when I talk to Carrie, because I have that background in biological anthropology, I would insert a lot of real scientific terminology. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. And I would, you know, the environmental cataclysm on prehistoric earth was the total catastrophe. That's a real theory about how there was a bottleneck, a genetic bottleneck in human population about,

like, I don't know, like in 74,000 years ago or something like that, that do massive super volcanic eruptions and like 99% of humans and I human as a genius, not a singular species, almost safety is a time got wiped out and a handful of homo sapiens in the undertauls and flores, homo flores the end just another isolated human groups survived that bottleneck and humane really almost went extinct. So there was a lot I was loading onto her that was actual real science or at least good theory. Again, you know, 80% truth, 80% live, 20% truth. Right. Right. So and because I was familiar, you know, I had a basic familiarity with the subject material, I could pull off basic familiarity with the subject material, like a law,

re-a, D.A. Purchase presenting the app. Right. So hold on. Hold on. One second. Yeah. No, you stop. Because you got to stop. You got to. I'm just going to talk over here. I want to know that specifically. How much of that is something, how much of the story did you guys have coming

into it and how much of it is improvisation in the moment? And I'm going to ask my question. Was your intention to also mirror that 80 20 rule where the 80% is the squash aliens and the stuff like that? And then the 20 is the real science, the what you're describing about the science of racism. Yeah, the scientific racism of the species race, uh, come like conflation, that is exactly what I was talking about, but the monolithic nature of these, these races, it's the thing, it's a really good way and a better way to put exactly the complaint about like all Draco are grumpy or whatever, you know, like that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that but I wouldn't say they are not possibly orientated species. I don't know every trod. Yeah.

And it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, on the plot. The general plot was written. Barry hasn't really said it, but Barry's a writer. Barry's a sci-fi writer. I've written three on published, so I find out. I've gotten nearly published. I've sold the stories of a radio show. I'm working on getting my novel's published, but with my current schedule, it's hard for me to do submissions and agent queries. Sure. But there was nuance to a lot of different things that she didn't pick up on because she couldn't possibly have, because there were things that came out of Barry or my head.

So the the trogue in my brain was actually sort of a world of work raft inspired idea. And I never played the game, but I know some of the stories. And so when she was grilling Barry on, you know, aren't the drugs more like, you know, the way this other, one of my other guests said, and, you know, Barry could say, well, you know, I can only tell you what I can tell you. And then there was ad-libbing sections on top of the of the storyline where we just had

the rough outline of he's going to meet a lizard. He's, you know, they're going to do this thing, but there's not necessarily going to be a. He's like how they wrote curb your enthusiasm, you know, like there's a basic idea and then go for there. You meet a lizard. What happens next? I don't know for government.

Well, that's, I mean, that's fascinating to me because like obviously, I guess it has to be written because there's so many specifics of the way that you, you guys laid out the story and it was presented. But at the same time, it does feel like you, Barry, you roll so well with the questioning that Kerry is, is putting forth and like being able to wiggle through situations like I wouldn't describe myself as having been a feeder kid exactly, but I did do a lot of like improv comedy and series, dramatic series, improv classes and I did use to act in my third grade teachers at the Willows. The general rule was yes and though.

I mean the general rule was if Kerry states it has facts. You did not follow that rule then. Well, the 20th rule was definitely in my mind. I mean, I wasn't, you know, working it out algorithmically in my head, but I always kind of kept going down. And this is that rate of truth. And that is also part of the messaging about like trans rights and trying to give practical real advice that deconstructs some of her toxicity and dig a tree. And to be clear, when I say yes and, a lot of those yes ends are in the form of no buts.

So it's allowing what she's saying and just slightly correcting. Right. And that's kind of the thing that I find very interesting about this is because you're going on to this show and it's fundamentally a conflict before it begins, right? You're going on the show specifically because the show is wrong. And you're going on the show in order to agree with her into not believing what she believes anymore, right? Right.

Now is this targeted at her or at her audience, or were you guys just throwing this out there as an experiment to see if you could even do it? It was an experiment, and I will say. You bought just two different answers. No, I mean, it was an experiment. We had no idea what was going to happen, but I will say, like, as an example,

for Carrie specifically, and Barry already touched on it, but in the third episode, she was, she was not only self-correcting to species while Barry was still there. I saw her on another interview she did with Patriot front, sub-correcting herself in, or sorry, Patriot on the ring, like all the Nazis get confusing. But basically, they, you know, it was, it was, she was self-correcting herself

now without Berg there. And so, she got very defensive of Berg in that interview. So it was, it was like, I don't know, like, I want to have to interview and she's talking about all her normal stuff, COVID, and the facts and all that. But then at about 54 minutes into this interview with hatred underground, they bring up Berg and hatred underground watched the third episode and had some questions, but his first question had to do with, you know, what part of the story we told Kerry about, you know, Berg's activities involved going to Brazil, trained Brazilian acts, not from first contact with the teachers. And while he was in Brazil, he learned about this character, Maltchanics, who is an Anaki Bounty Hunter, who murdered indigenous activists in the rainforest, a lot predator,

and then takes out a bounty on squash. And I had said that Malt shen at the time, to both narrow government and Virg had been working for his name is Silva, I believe the current president. He's a lot of this, he's a better guy. And Patriot Underground's problem in his first question was, well, isn't Bolsonaro the good guy? I mean, that's not what we're good doing, he's still in it. But what do, you know, but what about, you know,

how can, how can, you know, isn't Bolsonaro or White Hat be like Bolsonaro? And, you know, that was how it launched into this discussion of Berg. Where Kerry got very similarly defensive of Berg as she gets of Mark Richards. But she specifically, it's an interesting watch. You should watch it.

Yeah, I'll check that out. I usually do it out. Anything else she does. It's 54 minutes in. You can skip to the 54 minute mark and the other be right there where you're gonna get caught up. And in this video, she makes a couple

kind of almost woke points where she's like, well, Berg may be quote unquote more of a Democrat than a Republican, which obviously is very influential. I'm not right. I'm a Democratic party. I'm an anarchist. I'm a leftist. I don't even consider Democrats really leftists.

I'm much more aligned with like Sophia from Mars to you recently had on your show. That's much more on that, ideologically. But to her, there's only Democrats and Republicans. Another of her is more of a feminist. And she defends this by saying, well, Bird has been to other planets. He's been to space.

So of course, he's not going to have a provincial world view. And then she calls out mainstream Christians because Kerry is very anti-church. She definitely believes in God and Satan, but she's sort of preventive religious. I think she won't believe in Satan. I think Satan for sure. Yeah. But she was talking about how, you know, if there is a God, and I believe there's a God, she believes there's a God, I don't believe there's God, but she was saying, if there is a God,

God's not just God of this or God made aliens too. Whoa. And of course, of course, and she kind of implies that like that broader perspective is wide bird maybe has these left wing views and aligns but as she put it LGBT whatever She can't even miss the break up with you without saying what? Another area I would highly recommend you watch is actually the end of the third episode. I couldn't believe some of the philosophical U-turns she almost makes after they discussed. She holds it in that interview with Pace and I'm about to be unknowingly quoted.

Mark said religion is the opiate of the masses. Yeah, I mean, she believes, or she at least utters some things sometimes that I don't know that she actually holds in her head. Because there were some of the sort of, I don't remember the specifics, to be honest, but at that third episode, I know you only watched first hour, I'm encouraging you to watch the last hour,

but the first hour, sort of, the first hour really and like is what got my first off because she clearly doesn't believe her. And that's the story and scenes. Right. And it builds and she basically ends up saying, you know, I don't know how to put it, but basically she's she just kind of loses the, um, loses the

thread, they get off the story and they just start sort of philosophizing. And I thought it was actually one of the most interesting, um, I wanted to understand Kerry better as a person. And I think we get to, we sort of get to that at the very, very end. And I don't know if it's because of the ruse that we pulled, which is, you know, around his illness, which was sort of drawing sympathy out of Kerry, but there was a distinct change near the end. And, you know, and so back to your original question, you know, was this targeted at Kerry or her listeners, I don't think we had a strong plan, but it certainly affected her, I think,

in the very end calculus. Because we did get you internalized some anti-apressed narratives. Obviously, it's still a raging endite semi who believes that Jews are lizard people and lizard people run Israel. And to be clear, I'm not a fan of the Israeli government. I'm not defending a archive there., I'm not a fan of the Israeli government. I'm not defending, you know, a part right there. But they're not losers.

They're not really to differentiate between Jewish and Israeli. You say it's how it. Yeah, I think I think a lot you're doing or what you did is worth Like having a conversation with you as opposed to leaving it on spoken and that is the the ability or at least the experiment that you undertook seems to be geared at, is it possible to make those behavioral changes by introducing correct information with that 80% of fun space shit thrown in?

And I'm curious about when that became an idea that you were going to pursue and whether it felt like that was possible When you started the first interview Did you feel like that was something that was going to even be in the cards? well, so We weren't I don't think we were really expecting to be invited back But I wanted to know about Mars and Jordan you wanted to know about Mars You wanted to know more about Mars

So we we didn't we had to do a follow-up and we did it you know a few weeks later, which you know maybe was a little too soon It was it was three months actually. And like I said, maybe it was a little too soon. And if we could do it again, we wouldn't do the Lion call. That was an error on our part. And like I said earlier, when we were not recording, neither Andrew or I are professional media. And getting critical feedback on jokes

for our professional media. You took him off classes. You said you did some improv cast. Yeah, I took him off classes and I did some performances, but like I was ironically, I was the kind of guy who told me this last thing on stage. You couldn't keep my shift together and yet I was able to film like in total maybe like six or seven hours of carry without breaking character or laughing.

I've always felt when I'm talking about the demons in part three, you know, that was very hard for me not to laugh. The entire, all three episodes were shot in my apartment. And so I had to watch all three. You did a good sentence about being the same room. You was not allowed to be in the same room. But I also had to observe this all without laughing and stifling my laughs when I did laugh, which was many, many times. But I want to talk about the timing and the scheduling. So the initial June, we sort of did our initial touch with her. We were invited back in September, and I think the excitement of wanting to answer a lot of Jordan's questions specifically, but really both of you was like,

we were excited to like, see, this is why this is dangerous is because it's like you're communicating with us through her. Yeah. That's a little bit. And we got carried away, but you know, Barry had the glyphs because Jordan wanted to see those glyphs. And so, and then we got a lot of negative feedback after the second episode. And I will say also are a relative of ours. A common relative past of way, a very important relative in our lives. And that was one of the reasons why we took not a problem. But also, at least somewhat, this whole thing,

weirdly enough, I like to think is sort of in her honor. And as far as set dressing, some of the items on the desk, we're related to her. And all the people in our family. Also, there's actually a book in part two. There's on the shelf, there's a book that my great uncle, his grandfather, owned about like Oaks'es and Scams.

And skepticism. Oh, yeah, skepticism. That's really cool. So our, our, our, you know our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, we had our own internal jokes too, and they were, to be fair, they were knowledge-fight jokes, you know, like Alex eating sandwiches during breaks and things like that. And just having, having, having Berg eat a sandwich,

just nonchalantly during the interview. I'm sorry, the joint too was kind of pushing the envelope transgressive. Right. Kerry, so Andrew said to me at one point, months after we did this, when we were prepping for our part three, or no after we had done part three, that he thinks Kerry is very bad at confrontation, and that it actually made us feel a little bad in hindsight,

because the bird rolls that joint on her show and lights up having you know, claimed that he quits back though and referred earlier to the Martian psychoactive herb that the teenage caveman soldier snouts. And that Andrew Jordan hit the pipe

when you found it. That was very dangerous. And she doesn't say any angel to him. He doesn't say like, hey, what are you doing? You're doing drugs on my show. She's a California writer, it's cool. Yeah, but also, I'm being obviously like a lot of conservatives, not pot. And I don't think caring necessarily has a problem with weed.

But this, the fact that it went uncommented And I don't think caring necessarily has a problem with weed, but you know this The fact that it went Uncommentant was Yeah, well the one that's That was great. That's kind of where I would like to go with that next is that that conversation about You know 80% 80 20 you know in this situation you're going to meet her on her playing field, so to speak. But in that vein, how is it that you are, how is it that you're not like feeling a mix of, am I offending this person when I'm not laughing? Do you know what I mean? I'm having an ingenuine interaction

with this person. And I'm doing it in such a way that I am aware they are not. So I'm taking advantage of that mismatch and information. And I just I'm just interested to see if that is something that you like feel bad about or even care about. So seriously, you mean like, okay, a serious consideration for me because of my, you know, the work I do and my training and my ethics and, you know, I, I do have to uphold a certain code of ethics, social work, or, you know, before the first interview I had an audio conversation with Caria along conversation with part group, you know, what's at call. And before I spoke with her, I'd said to Andrew, if I get even a whiff that Caria is not mentally stable, this, we're calling this all out. That's good. And it

would be inappropriate for me as a professional who diagnosed this people clinically, who I have direct interaction with to state what my clinical old infractions were of carry. But I don't think that she is in any significant way. I don't think she has any kind of psychosis or anything like that. She might maybe have some borderline or cystic tendencies, but she's not like a... Hey, catch most of us on a bad day. We've all got borderline viruses to take control. She's not a borderable, yeah, that's it. She's not a borderable person in the way that like, I think if you were taking, and I think if you were taking advantage of her, this would be like a wholly different conversation.

You know, like, or this conversation wouldn't be happening, but also what you guys, like the actual show itself, I think it would have felt a lot different. If there was a, yeah. She pushed that, especially in the last episode, but in terms of, oh, Berg, you're sick. Tell us your website. Where can people go to give you money? What do you need? My community cares a lot. And one of the things with the, yeah, with the, with the emails that we were getting forwarded from her supporters, a genuine, I would say two to three and Barry can talk on it after I mean two to three dozen emails genuinely concerned for the major and how, who he needed to call right away and how, how much money he needed to raise to get these ingredients to eat that would cure his illness. I mean, it was it was a genuine outpouring from her supporters just to clarify because we never put her up on the offer to fundraise because we felt that it would have been absolutely

wrong to financially exploit her viewers in any way. I would say highly. You know, we could not. We were now that was never something that you considered. I didn't even respond to it. I just ignored it when she said that. Yeah. And just to clarify really quick, because we didn't cover the third interview on the show and some people probably didn't hear it, you all sort of made an exit from Carrie. Yeah. You know, there was a, this isn't going to happen again.

So now that we did the second interview, Andrew and I decided that we were going to do a third interview because Kerry had asked us to come back, but Berg was going to be away for a while and inaccessible. So what I did was I didn't respond, I didn't even go on WhatsApp, I didn't check. Obviously my phone wouldn't form me if Kerry was messaging me, but I didn't go into the app. So there was no double check mark and the message having been received for months. I would say maybe for like, I don't know, eight or ten months.

Initially, we had wanted to do, initially we had, we had, we had always talked about a three-part part. Well, you're sci-fi, Norx. Everything's intelligent. But when, when, when initial plans, and this was way back, was to have a basically an agent come in and shoot or in some other way. Sure, sure. Yeah. Live on. We've all seen student films. I totally get it.

It makes sense. It was actually inspired by, there's an episode of the ex files where molder was shown and then like a bunch of armed men breaking in and murder the scientists who were dissecting the alien. The planet is clear that it's not fake. So that was kind of what I was thinking was like, we want to have this interrupted interview that would end abruptly in the screen would go to to black and maybe birds phone would fall and hit a button and you belong to the city would play or something like that. See that's interesting. But that's dangerous. Yeah. That's right. I think that in project

Kamala world that is dangerous because you could become too important to part of the lore. If you did that and pulled it off. That's why we were discussing it. Andrew had said, you know, we have to have some kind of big reveal, you know, like squatches, try to do something like that. And we were talking about her spitballing, and I said to Andrew, what if Berg is dying? And we were like, okay, what does he say? He's dying of, and I was like, reptile then. But one of the very important things we felt about the very end was that, and this is still part of our plan, is we're sending a letter to Carrie to her PO box, which has on it essentially a scrap of paper from Daniel Jordan, which tells her that the major is dead, and that he

died of COVID, and that he would not Daniel Jordan participate in COVID denialism. And so, you know, believe what you will carry, but a great man is dead and he died of COVID-19. And he died because I was in the right COVID. Yeah. Right. And we thought if we left, if we left it up to her, she would take the narrative and turn it and she still might, frankly, eat it after. You do have to, you do have to maintain control of that character.

This will become a vaccine. Yeah, she can't have that knowledge of, or she can't be allowed to take control of that. I wanted the reasons we reached out to you was because this is science fiction and people come back from a dead-hung time and science fiction. And we wanted to be very clear that we were not going to you know pull a spark right as it were we're not coming back there's not going to be you know a fourth-berg episode we're not going to

and I think I think this is an important thing to point out too is you guys sent us an email like a couple of weeks ago. Now, and we did not interact or like, there was no contact between us before that. And I kind of expected that we would never hear from you all, but it would just be something we were aware that it was very clearly like connected in some way to our podcast. But like that it was like we'd never touched base. And I'm, I'm, you did reach out. Yeah, our original intention.

That was a late development in the game. Our original intention was we were just not going to break space for it or pay for it. Mm-hmm. It just we were not going to break character. We were going to let this simmer. We were going to leave it, leave it dangling, as he said. But on further reflection, we felt a little bit manipulative and decided it was courteous to reach out to you

and explain ourselves a little bit and assure you that Berg is not coming back from the death. That he's been killed off offscreen. You know, he died a tragic death and he will not be making any further appearances on Project Kamala. And one of the things, when I was following the conversations on Reddit and Discord, which obviously I know you guys aren't eating the Reddit, and you're not eating the Discord,

and for good reason clearly. Well, we just get overwhelmed and cry a lot. Yeah, you get blocked out. That started posting on Instagram, and it's already going terribly for me. It's going great for me. And it's funny because Reddit seems to love squats but hate bird. Which is only natural, you know, but Reddit, so the internet conversation among the warks centered around this concept of the quote-unquote crime directive, which obviously refers to your guidance never to call into Alex's show

or try to prank Alex or mess with info wars or colladas, your way to interact with Alas, because that would just play into his game and would only get hold of it and bolster him and his voice. And there was a question about whether the prime directive applies to Karen. Can I clarify something really quick? Please clarify, please clarify. So in terms of coming not from you, this is coming from red.

So in terms of the what they, there are a lot of wanks called the prime directive, I don't really want to tell people how to behave. And I don't really, I think it's my place to say, hey, don't prank people or whatever. I think a lot of pranks are cruel and unnecessary. So I'm personally not thrilled with them. But the guidance and the request to not call into Alex's show and fuck with him was based on the fact that we were studying Alex. And that if people called into Alex's show and tried to mess with him in a way that would play to us, it would all get a living across from the fire station.

Oh, it's all right. But it would alter what we're studying. And then it would become like a snake eating its own tail and become meaningless. So I didn't want people to mess with Alex for that reason that it would ruin the purity of what we were looking at. With Carrie, it's less important, but it is very important that people don't be cruel to her and make a joke of her. If you're, if what you were doing was like, she's the butt of a joke, I think that it would probably violate.

Oh, we never would talk to the director. We wouldn't even, you know, that wouldn't have shown up on, on our show. But in terms of, in terms of that kind of framework, I don't know if it exists as much in project hamilot because, you know, like, everything's nuts to begin with. Yeah, the way I, and the prime director of itself, as it's called, is gone. Basically, because, like, I mean, I was part of the trials and stuff. It's like, there's nothing we can get now. Yeah.

I was frustrated for the most often violated law in the start right first. I mean, it's the front. It isn't around. It's something you don't want people to. Yeah. Because there's a higher ethical good, or there's a higher moral reason to get involved and be kind of a challenge. I will say the ability for two kids, me and Barry, to completely destroy a discord in terms of like, oh, I think it's the greatest thing ever. I think it's the worst thing ever. They ruined the show. Dan would have, Dan would not approve. Dan would approve. Jordan would not approve. Jordan would approve. I mean, it's unbelievable. The drama. Well, I guess we can settle

back for the discord. We're fine. Yeah. I mean, I think the reason that I approve is because of the the experimental progressive aspect like because I think that that is something that is a framework that is not understood. We don't know the answer to the question of like, can you get people to have better opinions by entering the superficial space that their bad opinions come from. And if you give up on the conversation and you give up on a section of people, you can't expect them to change. And so even if you're even if the things that you have to say, well, only convince a small percentage of people, if you give up on it, you're not going to succeed. And I'm not a radical, but I am a leftist. And I do believe in like incremental change.

And I do believe that giving up communicating your beliefs to even the most extreme groups is sometimes not the best strategy. You can pull people back from the brink. And if you're not going to engage in certain spaces, it's not like anti-Semites aren't going to, like, they're going to leave it alone because they don't believe in aliens or something, you know, like, it's a place where a lot of that stuff can fester. Yeah, I mean, the central question that is kind of being asked here is, I mean, Dan pointed it out just there, you know, every community that we're seeing now is getting infiltrated with fucking Nazis left and right. Because they're willing to make the community at the spot where the community is at. Whereas it is, it is impossible

realistically to say, I am going to be a straightforward honest person and I'm going to meet this person of about aliens on their own space because you are fundamentally lying to this person right away. Like the moment you say hello, you are lying. So I'm interested in the idea of what is the difference between lying and just meeting somebody where they're at. of what is the difference between lying and just meeting somebody where they're at? That's that's a great question. In therapy when I'm doing 45-minute sessions with clients, I hear a lot of racism and a lot of anti-semitism. People will say anti-semitic things to a Jewish therapist and because they expect, well, I'm not gonna make it about me, it's their session. So they kind of will sometimes abuse works.

Like what's that? And there's other, you know, it's, I can't push back against every time a client gets racist or I would lose that client. Well, there's a difference between putting up with it and joining in on the racism of the patient that you're talking to, though. You have to find a way not to validate it. And so for example, sometimes when white Christian, Gentile clients of mine have made racist comments or seem to expect me to validate their racism,

I have said things like, I have black clients too, so I hear both sides. And keep it at that kind of gentle sort of breathing. So where it's not like, you know, and keep it at that kind of like gentle sort of ribbing. So where it's not like, you know, you fucking racist, you know, it's more like, yeah, watch it, cause I want this all to be a safe space for everyone, including you and including my other clients.

And if you disrespect my other clients, I might, you know, I might. Yeah, go ahead, Andrew, what are you doing about that? Andrew, Andrew, go for it. For God's sake, Andrew. Go, save me, man. I don't let anybody interrupt you anymore. I was just gonna say,

Jens, I was just gonna say, you know, I think like when Kerry has people on her show, you know, telling her that she's a, I can't remember the guy's name, Abaddon, the guy that goes by that now. I always forget his name. Any page, you know, any page, the racist daily and telling her racist stuff all the time. Of course, she's going to be surrounded by it. And if there's no one else saying the opposite stuff. And so it is lying, but at the same time, if you're not in the arena. And so it's like, you have to be there, there has to be some pushback. And there's not,

and it's just interesting that every single person that goes on to her show to drift is from the right. And like, there's no reason that necessarily that group has to be right wing. They're interested in space, they're interested in UFOs. The new UAP stuff, it's a big group of political interest. And I just, for the right to have dominated it for so long and to still continue to dominate it today, it's not necessary.

But yeah, I guess if you aren't a true believer or a grifter, you do have to lie to get into the space. Yeah, it's, it's that, it's that idea, right? Like, of course, the right will dominate that space. They have no problem with lying to these people. And I mean, that's not, that's not a left or right thing. But it in terms of grifting, you're going to get more money by grifting people towards the right. You're not going to, you're not going to get left winged grifting people towards the right. You're not gonna you're not gonna get left winged Grift money very as easily as you would the right we were worried about stolen valor even just Even talking about using that

Using the rankings And my response to that is you know, do you have a problem when Tom angst plays soldier? But do you have a problem with warm movies? problem when Tom Hanks plays soldier, but do you have a problem with warm movies? Like, I have a problem with war periods. So we don't need to worry about how I feel about still about it. Well, here's a, here's a way I thought about it in the context of this is that it's almost impossible to take seriously your pretending to be a soldier or whatever. SSP. Yeah.

With, yeah, within it, you are acting like you said, it, it very much seemed to me, not a claim of position, but, um, saying the role for the purposes of the conversation. It's not like you're trying to get a discount at some place by claiming that you're a major. It's just, yeah. Now I'm not in the conversation. It's not like you're trying to get a discount at some place by claiming that you're a major It's just yeah, now I'm not in this What was that I'm not applying your veterans benefits I'm not trying to you know get some kind of privilege or something by claiming that I was in the Marines. It was a script. It was a fiction.

I was involved in and my role was no different than an actor in a movie. Can I ask you a question here? I think this would be, I think you don't have an answer for it, probably, but it would be a very interesting question. This is a great, but it would be a very interesting question. This is a great setup. It'd be a very interesting question. Is there a difference between somebody who is a true believer saying exactly word for word, everything that you said to carry and somebody who, like you, who doesn't believe

what they're saying? I don't know. I never, I never considered that. Well, doesn't intention play into it, I think? Isn't that, I mean, that's the question, though, when we're talking about meeting people in this space. Yeah, but the intention of like, if you're lying to, you know, self-enrich or, you know, abuse people in some way, then that matters.

And if you're doing it for, I don't know, why am I answering a question that was directed to you guys? I'm sorry. I liked I liked the concept and I got to watch this firsthand of people lying at each other specifically Barry and Gary just lying at each other but but but in a way that it had to be mutual there had to be a given a take and it was I mean I think it's comes down to human nature, I guess. Would there be a difference between what Barry did and someone who,

I don't even know, like a person who was like Barry, if they were a true believer, would either be a real space, like an amazing thing, or they would be mentally unstable. And so for Carrie to engage with the latter would be really fucked up. And it for Kerry to engage with the latter would be really fucked up. And for Kerry to engage with the former would be incredible. But does she really believe that? No. And so for her to be able to engage at all, it has to be this kind of weird, mutual aid

of lying to each other. That's really it was bizarre to observe. Yeah. That's, you know, it's hard to hold on to that thought of, of like, her belief also dictates whether she is lying or not. Yeah. And I think that Terry is a very superficial and transactional person, very transactional. And in our interactions with Terry, we were giving her great content.

She was getting views. She was benefiting from this. And I think because of what your views being somewhat controversial within her community in that space, I would assume that there's more engagement than a lot of other episodes that are just saying the same thing that everyone already believes. And so that's probably even more of an incentive for her, quite frankly. So as far as this whole experiment goes, right? Like I'm trying to, I'm trying to process it as a, as a thing that you can then execute something from this information we have. And it's like,

I can't help but think is should we just train like 40 people in how to be this time talking about the side like a side off to this one I'm talking about. That is exactly what I'm talking about. This stuff doesn't exist in these spaces. That's what you've pretty much proven. Right. And there's no way that it will naturally evolve in these spaces because it's based on entirely upon falsehoods. So then we have to have a directed falsehood team infiltrating all of these different spaces to put these ideas into action, otherwise they won't get in there. Period, right? When I was a kid, when I was a preteen and like a middle schooler going online and reading about, you know,

Draco's and Grays and and Roswell and and Rengal Shim and all that stuff, you know, I would follow the links and sometimes I would wind up on anti-smitic agents and then I would experience cognitive dissonance. And eventually, I convinced myself that there weren't alien visitors to Earth and aliens hadn't engineered humans in any way or gifted us with any kind of genetic know, surplus. I don't know if that's the right word for it, but we're not, we're, you know,

I became a skeptic and materialist largely because I kept running into that fringe right, which was fringe then. I wouldn't call it fringe now. One thing I got to consider is that your average bush voter of 2004 became your average Trump voter of 2016. I think a lot of people already made me have an inclination toward believing in things like interdimensional demons or the Bible talks about UFOs and other stuff. That's only recently been brought to the surface

because now the mainstream right is so thoroughly dominated by conspiracy theory law. And there's such an overlap between the propaganda and the conspiracy theorists. To touch back on Jordan's question, I think. But maybe they wouldn't have made themselves so bold in 2014. Right.

All right, interesting. I think the answer is yes. I think the answer is yes. I don't think you need to send up 40 teams. And if you think about the men who stare at goats and all that stuff, there's already probably plenty of government folks already thinking about, how do you get into those communities?

How do you spread your messages? Well, yeah, but I don't want them involved in these communities. No, no, but how do you introduce the left leaning ideas into those communities? And the answer is yes, now I don't think you need to recruit agents to go and do it, but I do think that what I would encourage folks to do is in your life, in your personal life, if you know someone who's a fringe person, if you know someone who's interested in the 10-foot aliens in Las Vegas, if you know people who are into the French things, don't shy away from engaging them in political terms and on topics that are

traditionally reserved for the right, I would say, you know, encourage that encourage dialogue with those folks, don't ignore them because if you don't inject it, then it comes from nowhere. Yeah, it's like people off, you end up kind of freeing a clip or an echo chamber. Yeah, and you surrender them to those other negative voices. Exactly. Yeah, that's really interesting. People wouldn't think it about Boston on society. Yeah.

Well, one thing I'm curious about is, we talked a little bit about what you learned about carry, but I'm curious about, you guys experienced something that I think a lot of people didn't ancient, and I'm curious what you learned. What did you walk away with the most of through firsthand experience of this, this is the resonant image, the resonant message,

the thing that's like, oh damn, that's nuts, that you came away with the thesis. One at a time, Andrew, you go first because you do not have the courage to burst through with an interruption. And because I'm worried that darkness is about to absorb you. It's like, I'm. Yeah, I, there's a, there's a thunderstorm.

Like I've never seen my wife going on outside right now. From when we started recording to now, it's just like, it almost pinched black in your room. Yeah. I would say the number one thing is the, the profit motivation. That I saw from Kerry. It was genuinely shot, not that shocking, but there was there it was not just her own desire for profit, but her in platforming and engaging folks for

their for their own profits. And it could even be as simple as something on one of her rumble videos or something where someone's like, you know, by this miracle medicine cure or some ridiculous thing and just hurt chiming in. And yes, it's really good. And being exposed to her telegram channels and just the absolute echo chamber that's in there at that is all so obviously profit driven. That was something that I knew from listening to your show that Gryfter's Gryft, but I didn't really fully absorb how someone with a lot of eyeballs on their social media just becomes almost as it's they become so reliant on the eyeballs resulting in dollars. And it's everything, every agreement and disagreement, ultimately with her, it stemmed from

whether I think she thought she could profit off of it. That's my name, take away. And so like even to the point of like the, the ideas, I'm like everything like has a tinge of profit in it, that's a bummer. Like so for instance, it won't matter if she watches this or if she listens to this. Because, and because, and because you know, they just all the birds, you conduct that, nobody's solving bird in squash and find the threads. You

can, it's there for her if she were actually curious. Right. I don't think she's curious. Curse, which is, that's the bummer. Like you'd expect somebody who talks all of the time about spaceship to be really curious and have a great imagination. And you know, yeah, but they, man, imagine Carl Sagan was just in it for the cash. And whatever pale blue dot my ass. Give me the box. That's, I don't know if that's your takeaway barrier or not,

but that would be my secondary takeaway is her absolute lack of curiosity. And as I think Jordan put it in one of the episodes where you covered us, her lack of commitment or her lack of investment in her own ideas, like I had to remind her that the mercantile thought. Yeah, that's yeah.

She was confused by that momentarily. And I said, well, I believe you call them Kenoneans and then she had the recognition. And was like, oh, yes, yes, yes, that is from my show. And so do you think that that's because if she had an investment in it, it would become clear how incoherent everything is? No, I actually genuinely think she has a short attention span. And also, keep in mind, Carrie is like 70, roughly. We think she's about 70. Yeah. You know, she like, you never know with Leadiansians could be any age, you know, yeah, you never know.

So one thing that was frustrating about Carrie, other than her being an erratic communicator, she's one of these people who is like always late. There's struggles to be on time. I can relate. And well, she, she's kind of a scatterbrain. And I think she, Jenman Reed, doesn't look like there might, I don't know, maybe be a little bit of cognitive decline because she's getting up there.

I mean, she looks awful for her age, but when she's on with, when if she's getting up there. I mean, she looks youthful for her age, but when she was on with, when she's probably, and she's still like, no, she's older than that. And when she didn't, she didn't respond to us when we were setting up the third interview when she didn't get in touch with us until like 15 minutes before he ran into his time, I actually started saying to Andrew like,

hey, you know, something might happen. She might have got a fall or something like that, you know, something might happen to you, might not have fall or something like that. You know, that was something I had to consider as like she is, you know, my parents age or a little, maybe a little older. And, you know, I'm starting to see them, you know, repeat themselves sometimes and my mom's been having more falls and medical emergencies. And so that's something keeping the fact that she is a person in mind. She's not a cartoon.

I mean, she's pretty horrible, but she's not like a character. There's not a thing. She's an end- an end of herself. As a personal like she, she, you know, there's every possibility that something could happen to her that we're not fortunate and tragic and, and, you know, so I did actually cry the word. He was like, well, you know, I know she didn't, you know, have a ball or something or, you know, like, I don't want that to happen to her. Yeah, empathy went into overdrive, basically. Yeah, but we don't hold anything against Carrie.

I think she is who she is. I don't think she's beyond redemption. I don't think we hold anything against her as a human being. I think we're fascinated by her. But I also think that this you know, this our experiment, at least for me, proved to me that she doesn't believe almost anything and sort of it, it actually, it might, I thought she was a true believer. And as we went on and on and on, and got more and more absurd, it became more and more clear that it was just a profit-driven

idea. The fact that she didn't hang up on you after the Lionel calls is like that to me says a lot, because I would have hung up on her. If you think that's so fast, I mean, the third episode gets more absurd to be frank. Like the, you know, the devil is involved and there's a lot of involved. Yeah. I mean, it's just a part of the reason I think Barry wrote that in was to say, like, how far can I push this envelope? Like literally. So now here's, here's my biggest question that I have.

This is something that's troubled me from day one. Day one. I think there are no heroes for the squash is maybe one of the most poetic, beautiful things I've ever heard. Was this improvised or did you write that? So that actually I that was just a review to great man heroes. Right. I just hate great man. That's where it was not written. So it wasn't written. Just tossed it at each for me on my right. Nice nice turn of phrase in the moment.

That's well done. Yeah. That's well done. In into that's why I said it was a wasson construct, which I think from Jordan a little bit because, you know, we're talking about space, but I was very specifically talking about just storyography, you know, theories of history and sort of the patriarchal aspects of storytelling in Western civilization.

And the concept of what a hero is is maybe very individualistic and arguably something that aligns more with capitalism and authoritarian structures, maybe like, you know, the Soviet Union than like my kind of brand of like anarcho-socialism or Andrews, you know, left-progressivism, you know, that's not kings. Right. So, it's not kings, the masters, right? And so, it was so much in the, I think the conversation where that came up was about

the squash being kind of a, you know, a refugee and a breath. Yeah. And in terms of like, who's going to save the squash? Is it going to be the reptiles or the Pleiadians? And yeah, that rebuke of that idea is, I get just, I don't know, I, I mean, we made a button with that, you know, there's no squat touch. Yeah, that's why it's unethical for us to not talk to you on the show. We exploited each

other. Yeah, we have, I mean, we don't have merch. We didn't make any money on it. Sell anything. So we get it. But still we stole the turn of phrase. Yes. Yeah. Well, and we need, you know, we need to send you this. Oh, a Squatch mask. Okay. The gorilla mask that actually inspired the athletes. It's about also maybe studying subplot in miles. They subplot in miles. I am amazed. I don't I've seen a lot of people speak off the top of their head and I've never heard a truck phrase like the Squatch S no heroes. So good.

Anyway, I will, I will stop a hammering on that. I think we should probably wrap this up because we've been going quite a while and I don't want to monopolize all your time. But before we do, is there anything else that you wanted to bring up? Is there anything else that like you think is important that I like to. So the reason the reason I alluded to earlier, the reason that we gave him the name Solomon. Oh, yeah, Solomon is the name of a king and Kerry has a thing

for men playing our three and lineage. Project Kamalot, right there. Project Kamalot, Bill Ryan, and Mark Richards. Well Bill Ryan for people who don't know is supposedly descended for King Arthur. Right and Mark Richards thought he was, I don't know, maybe the reincarnation of King Arthur or something or intended to be the new right, the look and so Pedrager. So there's a there's a theme there with Harry that she seems to be enthralled by men with our three and or maybe Kingley lineage and so that was why we named Solomon Burke's son. Do you think that that like translated to her, that that like subconscious thing, like

actually, like do you think she subconsciously got that? No, not necessarily. It was just sort of, you know, we were debating what is his name going to be. It's got to be. be, obviously very stereotypically Ashkenazi. I was going to say she's so anti-Semitic that just the name Solomon should be more than enough to get you across the finish line there. Nebuchadnezzar Burr. Yeah. Some of the names were, the names were a lot of fun like Fiona Saline, my cat's name was Fiona. She passed. I know. She's our two cows names. I read it correctly. Soft that Lyle Spurling getty was named for a furling getty that the poet wrote here at

his nits. I did not get that. That was one of the questions I had the Spurling getty. The Lionel was clear. I'm I'm I move. We were a Fiona was. I'm going to call it Lionel. I move. We were if you own a list of that.

All the lines. Yeah. Yeah. And then initially I wanted it to be Lionel Spaghetti, but very, very, very deep. Yeah. That might be too much. I would like to. Yeah.

I will say one, my final, my final thing I want to say is you, you have multiple times Dan specifically, maybe Jordan said to not listen to your podcast, you know, like from beginning to end and I guess the kids call it these days, whatever, you know, where listened to about 20 or 30 episodes at which point I decided I had to stop, start from episode one and listen exclusively from there till the very last episode. And even though I've only been listening for about three years, that only just happened about two or three weeks ago. So I've listened now finally to your entire catalog and I can say it was an incredibly entertaining three years. I wish I could do it again. I'm in withdrawal and I couldn't disagree with you more that people should binge your show. Maybe not like 10 episodes a day, but there's nothing wrong with going episode one and

just starting the journey. I love it. I loved every second of it and I put it. I did the same thing. I binge it to after after listing a bunch of like modern day Yeah, so it's in the whole project He did it even faster than like you And you know was listing to it in my car on the way to work I was I was listening to it. Yeah, you know when I wake up at 4 a.m. in the morning and it's supposed to split You know, I think if you can handle it, it's fine. But I do think that there's some people who it might be dangerous for.

Like I've heard people talk about like Alex showing up in their dreams and stuff. I think it's definitely a part of this. I definitely thought you were about to do it. You don't want to see Jordan that much. I think my favorite criticism of our show is something along the lines of like Jordan's really terrible for the first couple hundred episodes. Yeah, we get that. And it's like really, how can I be terrible for a couple hundred? Just quit listening. If you hate me. I could never understand that Jordan criticism. It's you guys are the Yin and the Yang. I mean, I don never understand that Jordan criticism. It's, you guys are the Yinn and the Yang.

I mean, I don't understand people being next. I understand people hating me. Well, you guys use a format that I'm seeing more and more now of in podcasts and behind the bastards and what the dollop also kind of do this where there is an expert and an every man standard. Yeah, they were way before us. We were led to that for the, yeah.

Or at least the doll, yeah. But that's what I'm, as I'm getting more and more into podcasts and watching less less TV. That's something I've begun to know is that that's a very common kind of platform, you know, for a show in order to explore a subject material. Yeah. So we were kind of, I mean, obviously we had that in mind, and we were, you know, devising all this.

We knew that we were, knew the dynamic and we knew how it would be people. Well, I think part of the issue is the mic down. You know, I feel like the first couple hundred episodes, there was maybe an interruptory issue. But again, you know, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, but so just in terms of that, you know, I think maybe that's how people got the wrong impression, but you got to have someone about something off of, you know, the sci-fi writer,

the sci-fi writer Barry and me, not the writer. You know, we bounced ideas back and forth. Yeah, even if you weren't both on screen at the same time, you know, now having talked to you guys and like, I can see the presentation of Berg is the is a culmination of the two of you. Yeah, it's it's almost like a reality TV show producer like throwing notes at the guy while he's on screen like oh try this go into this from under the door so you don't hear the laugh. But to his credit, I gotta say Barry's ability to add live with a crazy person is truly remarkable. Yeah, I was very, very impressed. Yeah. Yeah. Um, actually,

I have one more question. What other references did we not get? Oh God, I'm sure there are two men in the evening. I don't know. I can I will send you an email. I will send you a list of its ideas. Yeah, which literally will have every all of my ideas and maybe I'll like checkmark the ones that got into the I would be interested. Sure. Yeah. As some as well. Host that there was a lot of people love that. His agreement when we were doing part two Andrew sort of pushed a lot of references and I tolerated it, but I didn't feel too. Formerly about them.

I didn't want to get to talk down in references and you did tell I know. And I and caught down in references and you did the line up. And I put a rating for stack a little harder against some of the more overt references that maybe distract a little bit from the messaging. I did love how subtle the like Fiona Salinoe's lands on her feet. Yeah. That was nice.

That was cute. Well guys, thank you so much for, uh, uh, chatin with us. This is, this is very interesting. And, uh, like I said, I think that what you did shows, at least a little bit of proof of concept in some ways for like being able to, the fact that you're, you know, you're saying that Kerry is self-correcting the species race kind of thing. You know, as kind of minor as that may seem,

that is something that matters. And it is. I don't know how useful that, you know, your findings are for other people, you know, who may want to explore that kind of thing, but it is fascinating. And I'm glad that you did it strangely.

I do want to say, you know, just for my final closing words, I'm glad it's over. I didn't particularly enjoy interacting with Carrie because of the effects of autism. And she's so erratic and unpredictable. A lot of what she, like when she swin my story ends and she starts kind of quizzing and back checking me against her other sources. A lot of what comes out of her mouth can be triggering. So I was eager to end this. You know, we didn't, as we explained in our letter to you, we did not want to be a bottomless

well for her. That would have served her interests more than ours. Right. Yeah. And I mean, it's probably got to be complicated at very least to deal with a situation where you're telling your story and putting the information in that you want with the awareness that there's a decent chance that no matter what I say, show you what I'm saying for her own purposes. Like that dynamic is, is got to be a strange space to live inside. Yeah, it is. Well, I mean, thank you guys so much.

Wait, this was awesome. Before we go, I have to say one thing very clearly to the audience. Not to you guys. Before we go, we got one more. No, this is for the audience. Oh, okay, sorry, for the benefit of the audience. There is, I want to make this clear, you guys didn't do this in order to get on our show. When you emailed us, you weren't looking to come on the show. And I want to make it very clear to anybody listening. If you do things to fuck with people for the, like, Oh, yeah. No, goal of getting on our show. It is not going to work. This is a very specific circumstance

yeah, where there's other things involved. If you're even want to make that clear, abundantly clear that you were not trying to get on the show. I would, it was my idea to ask you to be on the show. You guys don't have anything to do with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to discourage anybody from like pulling stunts in order to know. No, stunts. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Try to set up. Thank you. I don't know if you can't get a good start. I don't know if you can get a good start. I don't know if you can get a good start.

I don't know if you can get a good start. I don't know if you can get a good start. I don't know if you can get a good start. I don't know if you can get a good start. I don't know if you can get a

good start. I don't know if you can get a good start. I don't know if you can get a the first time I've had a huge fan, I love your work. I love you.