Knowledge Fight - Doing Dune: Part 2

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

Dan and Jordan wrap up their trek through Dune by discussing the second of the modern films, attempting to really get to the bottom of what the Bene Gesserit is up to.

We've got Worm Sign! Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Worm Mix. Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, Rattler, R I have great respect for knowledge fight knowledge. I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys Shane we are the bad guys knowledge Knowledge fight Spice Stop it Hey everybody, welcome back to Doin' Dune with Dan. Doin Dan being done We're doing part two part two part two of Dennis villain away based on 2024 absolutely

Shit very good. I love I love that We don't really notice how long our theme song is Until we start doing a remix in the middle of it, and then we're like I've run out of ideas run out of steam I had some other ideas, but I ran out of steam. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there was a good 10 second lull in there probably. Where both of us are like, oh boy, there's still quite a ways to go. We've made it different enough to call it a remix. Let's pack it in.

We should've emailed DJ Dan. Probably. What are you gonna do? Oh boy. So Jordan, we finished. We finished it. Sort of, I mean there's still other Dune content out there It is certainly, but we've seen the three major movies now sure it is fun that the further well this part two ends almost exactly the same way that part one does with

This movie is just about to start buddy. Yeah any moment now that was a little annoying because I did think that There would be more of a finality to this. I understood that there was more story to tell. Sure. But the way that the first one ended with desert power. Yeah. This is just the beginning.

This is just the beginning. And then the way that this ended with this is just the beginning. This is just the beginning even more so. Essentially, it wasn't the line. They didn't say that line, but it did feel that way. It was a little annoying. Yeah.

And I'm not, hey, look, I don't wanna, I don't wanna give away my feelings, but that was, the fact that there isn't another one I can just watch now is a little frustrating. I, I, I, I, it's not too dissimilar from having a fin card. That's like the end Dot-dot-dot or is it? Well, it's obviously not yeah, well it is no man everything ends in chaos

What's he gonna? Do nothing? To do come on everything to do no there's a whole galactic empire or whatever sure sure all right, so it starts exactly where the Galactic Empire or whatever sure sure all right, so it starts exactly where the Part one left off which I really like I like if you're gonna cut a movie in half Fucking at the end of the intermission. I want to be right back where I started you know what I'm saying Paul Hanging out with the Fremen being cool in the desert. Yeah doing stillsuit shit right. Yep. How do you like him? I liked it fine. Yeah, I thought they had a lovely Terrorist romance. Okay, well told Paul and Shani's Terrorist romance. Yeah. Yeah, I thought they actually felt like they cared about each other which is different than the 84 version

It is nice. It is nice to see her be a character. Yeah, I thought Zendaya was great I think she does a great job with that character Yeah, I don't know Where are we at the beginning? Are they taking out the Harkonnen? beginning right at the beginning is We're in the desert. They got a they got to try and you know hang out with the cool people. Oh, that's right That's right. He has to They're they're like

Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, they go meet still gar. Yeah have to prove themselves Before they're allowed to be terrorists, right? And it's like the scene that you liked in the 84 version where she was given the opportunity to like grab still gar real quick And they were like whoa, she's super powerful right and this one. It's way better Yes, as opposed to just a weird random like aha I caught you, but I think that was in the part one. Oh Yeah, you're right. That was in part one. That wasn't part one, but in this part in part two we have the conflict of whether or not they will be accepted into the Fremen community right and

So Paul has to take his little walk across the desert or whatever and then still guard Tells Jessica that like you gotta take you just be water. We could kill you Yeah, unless you do the thing that I want you to do right now this this is this was fascinating to me That that move on still gar's part. Okay, so Stillgar is a zealot in some ways. Sure. He is he believes in the prophecy of the what is it quiz outside Iraq? What's the other one? Lisa and Algaid the Lisa and Algaid. He's definitely he is a believer. Yeah. But at the same time, there's part of the prophecy that the Lisa and Alhaib has to be the child of the

Mother yes, the the what's it? What's it called in in the Fremen? It's the Sayyidina In the Benedicis it's a reverend mother. Yeah, there's be a reverend mother is the mother of the Lisan al-Ghaib Yeah, so he's forcing this prophecy. He he goes to Jessica and is like We could kill you unless you do this sure we have to make this prophecy come true that I believe in there's faith But there's also a cynicism that he's expressing I found that to be very interesting because Javier Bredem is a great actor Yes, and I think he was able to embody some of that like I Believe in this prophecy sure you doing this will work with that prophecy sure you not doing this

Means that it's not you and I could just kill you he knows he's strong-arming her sure sure But we also find out later on that this is not the first time he believes he's seen the Lysand Al-Geeb. Seen some signs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So people are kind of like wary of him just thrown out. Oh great, it's another messiah from Stilgar again. Okay. Right, right. So I'm sure he has that. And you're right, I think he plays that really well of being like, hey listen, I believe in this stuff, but at the end of the day, I am a politician. And if I go back to them and I say, she doesn't want to be part of anything, they're going to be like, Hey, listen, I believe in this stuff. But at the end of the day, I am a politician. And if I go back to them and I say, she doesn't want to be part of anything, they're going to be like, well, then put her in the lake. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You have,

you're not useful to us. You're an outsider. And if you want to save your life, you will help me bring about this prophecy. Yeah. Yeah. That is such an interesting line of faith, because it is well presented, I think because of the quality of acting, yes, and because the story has so much time to breathe. Yeah, but that like, tension of I don't doubt that he believes he's a true believer. But he's also acting incredibly cynically in order to force things that would reinforce and prop up the belief, right? I think that's an interesting point because that's a major theme the idea of

How much is it faith and how much is it like you've got no choice but to do this to live? Mm-hmm, you know all of the all of the benedict. These are signs, these are things that are happening, are also places where it eventually points down to either you do this or you die. So is it faith or is it that if you don't fulfill this prophecy, you're just going to die anyways? Right. And then eventually someone will come along who takes the choice of not dying and that will be fulfillment.

Yeah. So the question then is how much agency even does the person who has the ultimate agency have? None. In a way. In a way. And I would believe that if there weren't magic powers. There is that problem.

That is a part that like the fact that everyone like not everyone but a lot of people could do some really magical shit. Oh yeah. If that didn't exist and this was just a lot of people could do some really magical shit. Oh yeah. If that didn't exist and this was just a very human story but on another planet, you know, like then the cynicism of like no one really has free will would make more sense. Sure. But there is, I mean free will is already a completely fucked up conversation with the

existence of the voice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Without magic powers, period. Well, if the Bene Gesserit can just force you to do something by speaking, then what existence is there of free will? Right. And how can you ever be sure anyone is doing anything? If they're around a Bene Gesserit and you know they can do that, then you can never

trust anything that that person around them is doing. But if you see them doing it Mm-hmm, they do seem to walk like robots whenever they're doing something that the voice told them Yeah, there is a aesthetic To how they act that was a big failing for the Ben and Jezret had whenever they created the voice they forgot to do the thing where people didn't act yeah yeah natural natural act like you didn't get the voice

you can tweak that over time um but yeah that is that is a really challenging question and I think on some levels I'm not really prepared to answer a lot of it because the story still isn't fucking told. I thought by the end of this I would have a much clearer picture of a lot of stuff and to some extent I think I do. I think the political intrigue in a lot of it makes a lot more sense. A lot of that stuff is, well, one stage of it makes more sense. Sure.

But then we're revealed that there's a whole other level on top of it makes more sense sure but then we're revealed that there's a whole nother level on top of it, right, right but you got the idea that whenever Harkonnen was like the Emperor's coming you got the idea that he sent that message to all the other great houses like if If he's coming for hit for us Then we have to get them to fight on our side against the Emperor right like there was that little That little moment of kind of trying to explain the political balance. Yes. I still don't fully understand it, but I understand that that layer exists. Right. Right, right.

That there is some sort of check on power of the emperor that is the alliance of these great houses. But at the same time, the emperor ostensibly rules over the great houses right and everything right so there but but ultimately that is a trump card Right that Harkonnen is trying to pull out right. I mean it's it's part of the part of the Political intrigue behind that is from actual like What would I say any dictator doesn't lead as a dictator? You know there is a certain amount of Aristocracy yeah, just a fewer number of people you have to try and convince to do shit. You know instead of trying to oligarchs Yeah, yeah, you're gonna have to you're gonna have to get this person who has the enough power to cause at least a problem

For you to work with you without being like, if you don't, I'll kill your family. Now, what I want to understand, maybe I don't, maybe it's too complicated, but what is that for each of these houses? Like, I get that one of them, whether it's Harkonnen or Atreides, well, I guess Atreides, they can fight really well

because of the weirding way. And then also both of them are involved with Arrakis and the spice. Right. But there are other houses and I don't know what they do. I mean, unfortunately, I would say this is where we get into kind of the big problem with sci fi during this time period. This is where- You're paid by the word? Well, that is a huge problem, but second second only to the Harsh eugenicism and fascism that runs through the core of most of this But you know this is where we get the this is the planet that does this this is the planet that does this

This planet is where we get gemstones from this planet is where we get our stuff from so every great house has essentially a monopoly this planet is where we get our stuff from. So every great house has essentially a monopoly on like one kind of trade group thing. And then if you're an economic group that has a monopoly on that. So essentially every aspect of the political sphere is like this idea of if you have an economic monopoly on one thing that everybody wants, then you have enough power to influence everything. Right. Okay. That makes sense. I mean, it doesn't make sense. It wouldn't work, but it makes sense. Right, right, right. It's not like a... It makes enough sense for sci-fi. Yes! That was a great way of putting it.

Close enough for jazz, sensible enough for sci-fi. Good enough. Good enough. Um, so I... overall, I'll just give you, I guess, a broad... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me how you liked the movie. I thought it was good in the same way that I thought the first one was good, but it did in a way that the first one didn't. I felt the length more.

Okay. I will say that for sure. All right, all right. And maybe it's just that 15 minute difference, but whatever it was, it was like, this is long. Oh yeah. What dragged for you? I don't know if anything really dragged,

but it just, you could feel that it was two hours and 45 minutes. This is a very long time. Yeah, yeah, what dragged for you? I don't know if anything really dragged, but it just you could feel that it was 45 minutes is a very long time. Yeah, yeah Which I don't know if it's a failing of the movie cuz it's not like at any point I wanted to turn it off or anything sure it was just And you know I think that that is that is a dynamic that is underappreciated for me Yes, I don't watch a lot of movies is that like the context that you're watching it in really matters? Yeah, you know like maybe you're a little more tired that day, and that's gonna affect how you see the movie Yeah, maybe that's all it was maybe I was just more tired and you can boy you can feel that like yeah

Yeah, I was I When I watched it again Let's see it is my third time watching part two. And I don't think I, I think I was at the point where I was like, this is now something that's on while I'm working. You know what I mean? Because you've seen it enough.

The first couple of times, and I know the story, but you know, I do that. And so the first couple of times, I'm watching the movie looking for stuff. And then after that, it's like, this is an enjoyable thing. And I know where I'm gonna jump in and where I'm jumping out and where I have to focus and not. So yeah, I guess I think that's the same feeling in a way

except without the obligation to like stay through it. If you were watching it and it was feeling long, you would instinctively have been like, okay well I'll just go over here for a second and then go back to it. Mm-hmm, right? That's how that's how I tend to watch a lot of TV, you know, yeah I think that we have a pretty clear like Layers of onion thing going on sure with like with the first movie you get a broad introduction to the Harkonnens

Alia tradies and Arrakis. Then there's teasing of the Fremen, there's teasing of other things that exist in the world. And then in the second movie, you get the next layer of the onion where you get the emperor comes in, you get more of the Fremen are fleshed out,

and it becomes more like these are the characters, this is the cast of this movie Yep, as opposed to the cast of the first one right and then you know Watching this it's it's like you set it up for the exact same thing like the great houses Are going to be the cast of the next movie? And not to say it's formulaic, but it's infuriating because you didn't let me know anything about those things that are gonna be in The next movie. Yeah, and and apparently that's now more important because of the war that was in this movie is done, right? Well, but the bigger war that is to come

Apparently involves players that I don't even know. Oh so many that's kind of frustrating. Yeah, it's gonna last a long time, too Oh, yeah So long and then that guy's gonna turn into a worm apparently yeah, that's that's three books away Yeah, you got a ways to go before you get there First that's that's our main guy's son. We're not even there yet that yeah I will I will say that I'm invested enough that when the next one comes out. I'll see it I I'm interested to see if they'll make a next one. They have to well, okay a lot of money Sure sure now, but here's where we get into the problems of dune

Doing the book the first book is a movie book. It's a very that stuff happens What's the end of the first book? The end of the first book is what you saw. Oh, okay. This is all just the first book? It is the returning of water. But the water doesn't come back at the end of the Villain of Huey Vey 1. In the Villain of Huey Vey 1 it doesn't come back, but it's not really important to the story, honestly. And it's really kind of changed... it's not really important to the story honestly and it's really kind of changed it's it's important but also it's thrown away as something that matters. It's very important in the 84 one. Super important in the 84 one. Super important in the

first book but then as the story goes on that's kind of like oh this was a bad idea actually this kind of destroys the whole point of the planet it's all about spice and then and then later so now that it's... You can't have liquid spice? You can't have you can't have liquid spice because the spice is the worms right so the worms need the desert and if you remove the desert then you don't have the spice exactly mm-hmm kind of kind of roach yourself into a corner on that one but that's out of it but that is what the Fremen want they want a green world right they used to have they don't want the spice they don't particularly

interested in the spice no it, it's ruined to their lives It's made all these weirdo white people come from outer space to fucking murder them all day, right? Yeah, so in their in their interest fucking let it rain. Yeah, absolutely, but everybody else can't have that rain No, absolutely not. Mm-hmm. Okay. So as far as the Mm-hmm. Okay, so as far as the What would I say as far as like this section of the book? This is where we get into kind of Paul wrestling with the idea of being the Messiah Yeah, so he's both, you know, he's all over the place, right? Well, he's both the manufactured Messiah that the Benedicess are it have lied to everybody about but also he's the real one that they've

genetically created through lying to everybody about but also he's the real one that they've genetically created through lying to everybody about but also Can he choose not to be one right right? It he tries hard not to see that's that's something that I have Mixed feelings about as far as the presentation of the movie goes okay? Because at the beginning there is a very real cynicism that he is coming with. That is, I need to convince the nonbelievers, you know? And then he gives up on that almost immediately

after Jessica drinks the water. And he's like, she's pulling a Ben and Jezaret trick. They know how to suppress poison. Sure, sure, sure, sure. This is all nonsense. Yeah. He works against his own interests. And then comes around to being like,

fuck it, I'll be the Messiah. Sure, sure. Eh, you gotta do what you gotta do. It's very, I don't know, that path seemed very strange to me. There is some of that. It's struggle, but it wasn't as coherent, maybe, as I wanted it to be.

See, this is where, and you're you're right about that This would make more sense in the length of time of the book this period of time is like five years So uh the you know, the voice that jessica's hearing the unborn baby Yeah, uh, that's st. Alia of the knife, which is a great name. No reason for that name, but I love that name Uh now let me say this about that. Sure. Um, I appreciated which is a great name. No reason for that name, but I love that name. Now, let me say this about that. Sure. I appreciated that she didn't turn into a child that knew everything.

That is true. Because in hindsight, an 84 version, that's silly. That is silly. Visually on screen, that is a bit silly. And so having it be embodied voice from in the womb and then the person that Paul can see in his dreams. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes more sense.

Way more sense. Yeah. Much better. But I'm sorry, you're saying it's five years. No, in the book you're like, oh, it's a child and it's just really, really smart. And then, or like, you know, has the memories of, or whatever. But in the movie it's like, oh oh you guys really shouldn't have done that

84 what it's strange you shouldn't have done that um no so the Jordan was just gesticulating Good thing there's another one to spin around with No so over that length of time, like four or five years, Jessica is becoming, they're becoming part of the siege, you know, they're just part of the community. And during this time period, you know, Paul's having a pretty good time. All things considered.

Hang out with Johnny? Yeah, he's, he's living a life. Fighting around with Stilgar? Yeah, that he wants to live. Like for his entire life, he's been's living a Around with still guard yeah that he wants to live like for his entire life He's been growing up in this sheltered bullshit trained in a weird way Stuck with doing everything that all these rules are supposed to do and now he's finally free. He's got borderline infinite power Yeah, you know he's unstoppable fighter all this cool stuff So at this point in time, he's kind of living his best life.

Why would you want to go south? Why would you want to become the Messiah? You're having a grand old time. As far as the hero's journey, this is the like, I don't want to become an adult. Fuck that. But that's, that's, that's something that, that is interesting because the, the, I don't want to be an adult is not at all how it feels, right? It feels like I'm going to kill a ton of people if I end up doing this, right? And I can't do it But then he gives up on that not doing it and deciding to go south pretty quickly

Well, there is the other elements that you we brought up earlier if he doesn't when he does then he'll die Mm-hmm every it's like, like. But why? What do you mean why? Well, he's already being hunted. The Harkonnens want him dead, because regardless of whether or not he's known as Paul Atreides yet.

He's Muad'Dib. He's Muad'Dib and he's in the Fideikan. So they're going around fucking everybody up. Harkonnens getting wrecked. Yeah, and they destroy the town, they blow up the well the Harkonens then after Fade Ratha is given control of Arrakis Boy, this scene was stupid scorched earth. Yeah You fired a bunch of missiles brilliant, right? Oh my god. That was that was a strange

Yeah, we didn't think of that before we hadn't thought of blowing them up with all of our power right now Yeah, I guess I guess that is you're trying to make him look more That was a strange, oh we didn't think of that before. We hadn't thought of blowing them up with all of our power. Right. I guess that is, you're trying to make him look more bloodthirsty and ruthless and I think that succeeds but that was kind of a silly. Yeah, that was a silly. Wait, Batista never thought of this? The guy who was famous for wanting to murder guys all the time didn't think, let's blow it up.

Yeah. Now that being said, Austin Austin Butler so much scarier than sting what how how so what in the lack of uh at all hair the black and white aspects the whole thing quite uh better version of that character, I would say. He seems menacing, seems scary, seems like when the whole thing ultimately comes down to a knife fight between him and Paul, when it's Sting, I don't buy it.

Stupid, dumb. In this case, I was like, he's a credible threat. He's a credible opponent. Yeah. And so I think that was an upgrade. And they did a great job of establishing that in the arena fight, which is one of the more important scenes from the book, wherein you've got this idea that the movie

kind of makes ambiguous. Like, oh, he was trying to kill him. And then in Skarsgard's performance, you kind of get the idea that, no, this was supposed to be a test. I took that similarly to the Stilgar, like, you can rise to this occasion, or you'll die, and either way, it'll be fine.

Right, right, right. You can either fight this person who's not drugged and succeed, and'll become a hero and it'll be great or You'll die and then you're not my problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah And then it's like why would I give a rakas to somebody who can't even win a fight against a guy who's not drugged? Right, you know, yeah, there's definitely that But by doing this by putting this whole thing and then you have Princess Fenring Who is the woman

who seduces Fade Ratha after the fight. Puts his hand in the pain box. You got it. Then they, she's I guess part of the Bene Gesser breathing program. So she's actually related to Paul also. She has to be. They're all inbred by like one generation. that's how you get a messiah, right? Because of the magic powers or something people didn't think about that they were like, oh, there's a lot of downsides agreed

But you forgot about magic powers, right? Um Yeah, so what happens now with that? Princess or whoever who has who's gotten pregnant by Fey Ratha? So she has because he's no law he's dead at the end right so she has for that child nah No, it's a potential quiz out Sartarac, but we already have him ah, but we don't have the right one Ah shit. We don't have the good one. Oh no good one was next generation The good one was the one that they could control yeah, or at least the one that was supposed to be there the one that wasn't a shock You know that the maybe the real problem the whole time is

Gaius mohaim was like this wasn't what I was expecting Who's that? That's the lady who's that's the highest or ever mother? Okay? That's the lady who puts Paul's hand in the box. I see, I see. So, that's another thing. She is trying to kill Paul from the moment Paul is born. But, because she's a benedict- She's terrible at it! Exactly.

Why? Because they're infinitely powerful and they're always so easy to beat. The Reverend Mothers, every single scheme they ever do is successful. Except for the ones that happen in the plot of every book. It's so wild. Okay, well now you've opened this can of worms up. Yeah. And this is where we will need to probably spend the rest of the time we're talking.

I expected it to be. Okay. So, as the plot goes on. Yes. I understand what the Emperor wants. Right. I get it. He has an investment in controlling spice because internet inter planetary travel requires it and there's an economy and all that stuff. He could not control house of traities. So he betrayed them with house Harkonnen and did this conspiracy and now he knows that Paul is

alive and is Muad'Dib and has to come try and solve this fucking problem on his own yes because the Harkonnens can't take care of it right so this all makes sense yes what the Harkonnens want makes sense what the Atreides house makes what they want makes sense in In theory, I assume, but I don't know these characters, what the other great houses want makes sense. Sure. I don't get what the Ben and Jezoret are up to. Okay. I don't know what their end game is. Right. Everyone else's end game makes sense. There's like these, these pieces and chess pieces that are being put in play. And I understand that the Ben

and Jezaret are behind everything and influencing everybody. They were responsible for advising the emperor to abandon or betray House Atreides. I get that they're the puppet masters and everything. But I don't get what they want. Well, I get what the Fremen want. So I get what all sides want except this group. Right. Um, that's made clear maybe in chapter house, dude, which is like book six or five. I can't even remember anymore. Okay. But the God Emperor, who is Paul, who's declared U2, Paul the Traite's son.

He's two books from now. Okay. He's the one who becomes a worm. He's the one who becomes a worm. He essentially is God, so he lives forever, can see the future and the past, et cetera, et cetera. But so can Paul, right? He can see the future and the past.

Paul can see the future and the past. Paul can see the future in the past. The idea being this, unfortunately. If we get this guy, then, and then we'll stop conflict forever. There will be no more war. Sure, a war to end wars. Well, more like if we genetically engineer God, then God'll take care of it.

Uh-huh. I guess. So this is what they're after? Nominally, yes. I think what's going on with the Bene Gesserit is unfortunate because if you have a super- It's unfortunate. If you have a super powerful, magic-powered syndicate

that controls everything from behind the shadows. Yeah, right Sooner or later you're gonna have to explain why it is Everything's not going the exact same way since one of them is at everybody's house, right? Like and they have the ability to override your free will totally and they can talk to each other They can just send each they can talk they can send a phone message They seem to be able to also telepathically connect totally so all All kinds of magic powers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there are factions, of course, within the deep state. Oh man. Yeah.

Yep. But this is, and this is another one of those great, like, sci-fi writers in this time period thing. I feel like this is a man who really wants to compliment women by letting you know that all women are conniving liars who are controlling you from behind the scenes and the only way to be free is to throw off their shackles. Not at all something that Frank Herbert thought a lot.

Sure. Sure. I, I, I could definitely, uh, you know, say that's of the time and unfortunate, but I'm trying to, I'm trying to tease out the thread yes Yeah, so you have this entire world mm-hmm that is all Political yeah like this is all about economies totally and the spice People are not important if you're not a main character you don't exist but they also have like really concrete motives and motivations like there is there is abstract power sure and then there is resources sure that they are all interested in the

Bene Gesserit are actually mystical motivated like they are actually trying to bring in a messiah yep to end all war so on some level they have what they believe to be a benevolent end goal yes that they are that they are working towards yes I don't I don't. The thing that happens. But here's the problem. Yeah. Ha ha. Okay. What do we got? What do we got here? Is this a moral question? The means by which the Bene Gesserit are trying to bring about this Messiah. Yeah. Is by implanting false stories of a Messiah.

Yep. In other people, except ultimately it will lead to a real messiah. Well, okay. So there's two parts of this. The first part is the Missionaria Protectiva is the Bene Gesserit arm that seeds the general messiah kind of religion, which is less about the messiah

and more about if a Ben of Jesuit shows up You should treat her like she's a witch that's got superpowers. Yeah, and then that way but she is well exactly I mean, you know which language aside it did you have superpowers? But at the same time if you find a witch with superpowers There's a good chance that thousands of people will probably murder that witch Unless there's a religion in place to protect them in advance True see so the really run. Yeah. Yeah, that's the idea so they created this whole propaganda program and throughout all of the galaxy there are

Variations on the exact same thing, but they have a lot of the same themes I imagine they have the exact same that kind of is on our guy He will come because that's what the Bene Gesserit will send somebody to the planet who will fulfill the prophecy of the voice from outside or whatever. Which is a really good like twin theme. The theme of if something is a prophecy then it will happen. But it hasn't happened yet so it has to happen somehow. But it's only going to happen because people are making it happen. But it hasn't happened yet, so it has to happen somehow. But it's only gonna happen because people are making it happen.

Right. Which I think is great until there's magic powers. Yeah, that is the issue. That is the issue. Because the magic powers kind of indicate that all this is true. It is true. Yes. Well, I mean, but that's the thing.

Like, okay, so what they're not really wrestling wrestling with or what isn't really wrestled with is if Paul Atreides Right if the quiz ought to hotarac the idea is they can see into the future and they can see into the past Yeah And any action or motion they take or any thought they have will give lead them to whichever one they choose So the idea is we have now removed all agency from the entire human race and given it to this guy. Which is a weird way of looking at God, and also I think the correct one, as a way of absolving all of us of our responsibility for anything if we create God Then God is the one who is responsible for everything sure now hold on. Yeah, because I don't understand Exactly, what's so different between the understanding of the past that Jessica gets and what Paul gets.

So this is... I know that no man has ever gotten it before. I understand that. Well, this is... I mean, it's kind of funny that we heard... It comes back to chauvinism? We heard, well, it comes back to... We were...

Not to date this, but there was the episode where we were talking about the doula, and they were like... Because they were one body. Because they were one body because they were one body at one point and it's essentially that it's like because women are all one body every woman is born with every egg she's ever gonna have so there's three generations you know whatever inside the same body at one point in time so a reverend mother can connect to every woman dating back all the way to Primordial Eve mm-hmm that's the power of the Bene Gesserit

well in that line in that line not branching off that line not branching off that line right yes but the quiz outs hot rock can do that for dudes uh-huh and dudes can't do that because dudes aren't related to anybody they're just dicks so that's good that goes all over the place that goes all over the place that goes to women that goes to men that goes To everybody everywhere. He can see every future. He can see every past he can do it all okay I can see how that gives a little bit of a different Vision yeah, it is it is tough because if you're if you've not fully fleshed out the idea of becoming God, then you're kind of working on the level of becoming Jesus and not becoming God.

So whenever you're reading the Messiah story of Dune, people kind of associated with the Messiah story of Jesus where you're like, this is the good guy. This is the guy who is going to free us, who's going to save us, who's going to do all kinds of stuff. Right. People aren't thinking about God, God, the guy who's like, yeah, there's a fucking hurricane thrown around. It's not you.

You didn't do anything wrong. I'm just God. I just make hurricanes sometimes, right? So naturally, if you're looking at that, if you're staring down the barrel of being Jesus You're thinking ah this might be pretty cool, and then you realize that nope It's going to be everything is my fault from then on forever mm-hmm And in fact it was always my fault in the past because that's how time works You yeah space time is one thing it's not like a thing that keeps getting made. That is a tough pill to swallow.

Eh, it's tough. Tough worm piss to swallow. It is tough. That's why the next movie might be a little bit harder to film. Because what happens at the end of this book, and at the end of this movie is we go okay because Paul has to Essentially take over the entire imperium in order to live If he doesn't then somebody's going to kill him The benedicis are gonna kill him the tilaxia are gonna kill him the other houses are gonna kill him He can only live longer if he is in charge of everything

right Can only live longer if he is in charge of everything mm-hmm right I? Guess you know like that's his only path. There's no way for him to be like okay. I'm gonna move to a small I Could see a possibility of obi-wan Kenobi Maybe it just associate that cuz deserts I mean I think the difference there is that obi-wan Kenobi was just a guy in the knighthood as opposed to being a former duke, you know what I mean? Yeah, somebody who is of the royal lineage who is supposed to be the king And who was raised since he was born with like maybe you're the Messiah. I don't know Yeah, I feel like he could fight people off. I Could use good fighter. He's a very good fight seems to be able to overcome every odd

He can yell at people and make them do whatever He wants yeah, so Mike he doesn't really have to take power and you know point You'd have a he'd have a tough road and people probably trying constantly to kill him Yeah, but he you'd probably kill all of them. He'd probably beat everyone who it would get it. Oh really God It would get annoying it would get really annoying right, but you could do it theoretically I suppose yeah There's that You know what's never addressed suppose yeah, that's all I'm saying there's that You know what's never addressed at any point as far as I'm aware Despite the voice being as good as it is and as powerful it is it is at no point in time

Does anybody get a bullhorn and just really see how we can do oh? You know what I mean it always has to be one person. It's always one-on-one It's never like hey I'm just gonna stand up at this pulpit and we're gonna see if everybody's gonna remember fake shit today You know, nobody ever tries it. Well, let's see. That's what Alex's innovation would be Absolutely. He had the voice tyranny maker one. Yeah that that idea of ancestral memories and stuff definitely felt more Yeah info wars connected or Alex's view of himself connected and prophetic dreams. And so there is a lot of Paul Atreides in his self conception. I can see a bit of that from now that I've seen both of these. And I'm sure it would be almost

embarrassing if I read the book. Probably. Probably. Thinking off the top of my book. Probably, probably. Thinking off the top of my head, yeah, probably. There's not as much Infowars straight stuff that I was expecting when I watched it the second time. Because I was, in my head, whenever I had the idea that maybe we should do this little thing, in my head you were going to be like,

oh, here's some stuff that I haven't even told you that Alex does from parts of the show that I didn't even you know like you listen to the show Yeah, and there's stuff that you listen to like a thousand times that was from dune But because you weren't in inundated with dune in dune and yeah You know what I mean that I wouldn't have read you wouldn't have been recognized I think it's honestly more just like that is a huge thing. Yeah. The ancestral memory and stuff like that

and being able to tell the future. Yeah. It is very parallel. And the fact that I didn't know that before is kind of like, oh, that's a huge blind spot. Yeah. And then Alex talks constantly about like when he was a kid in Dallas,

like how he would ride worms. And I never picked up that that was related. It's tough. It's tough to engage the text too much as like looking for all of that while still trying to take it in. Sure, sure, sure. Because I wanted to understand what I

Was what I was totally totally I was I'm not I'm not Admonishing you for not having a thousand examples of something that probably doesn't exist. Yeah There's a lot of thematic stuff, but there it's not as like he Legitimately directly believes like childhoods and is real yeah and stuff like that Yeah, is this he just sort of has given himself Paul's powers It does feel like he believes he is the quiz outside Iraq. Yes in in a lot of ways. He feels like But I don't know how you could not if you were if you're a narcissist these books are for you, you know, like

regardless of and How do I put it? Okay. It is viewed as a valor, as a positive for Paul to be like, I am not the Messiah. It's not me. No big deal. You know? That's cool. You shouldn't be the person who's like, I am the Messiah. That's creepy. You don't want to pay attention to that guy. But then he does. But if you are the Messiah, then everything is about you. So like just the entire world is about you. Right. You're the most important person in the world. And if you're a narcissist, that feels like, okay, sure, everybody always tells me that I'm not the most important person in the world, but they said that to Paul.

Right, and the humility gets you nowhere when the world is actually. Yep, you just gotta take control of things. If I'm the Messiah, then I gotta walk into that room and I gotta be like, bababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababababab And I've got a Begrudgingly accept. Yeah, you can't do it. You can't want it right wanting it makes you bad person. Yeah Yeah, I don't know I was surprised at how good Shaolin I did with the the yelling scenes and Whenever still guard is like you got to kill me and then you can take my place and really talk This is our rules and he was like, like Ah fuck you a bit of Nick cage there was definitely I noticed I noticed it in the first one and there was a bit more

There's some there's some pretty cagey vibes. You got a nice. Ella may you gotta be you gotta get big You gotta yell big. Mm-hmm. That was tough to do and I respect it. Yeah, I thought I thought he he did fine I thought he I thought that his character Felt more full in the first one. Mm-hmm, and maybe I Would imagine the assignment on the second one is a lot harder. Yeah The complexity of what you're probably trying to convey I might have missed a little bit of it, but it's still think you did a great job Zendaya was great. Yeah, Robert down was great. I can't remember who played Jessica Rebecca Ferguson. Is that right? Uh, she was great

Yeah, she was great. Jessica was great Austin Butler was great. He was great. Skarsgard was great Batista No, I agree. I think he's fine James Brolin was great. Whatever whatever everyone's about, Batista being the best actor that's come out of wrestling, I don't think it's based on Dune. And I don't think that's his fault. I think he's playing this role fine.

I just don't think that there's a lot in the role. Right. I'm going to throw it out to you. Blade Runner 2049 is why. Okay. He's, his, his whole, and if you put little tiny glasses on Dave Bautista because I think I think M. Night Shyamalan did it too if you put little tiny glasses on him. You're like, holy shit This guy might be amazing. Okay, you just put tiny glasses on him Dave Bautista and you're like this man is an actor. I will

Reserve judgment just take a look at a picture of him with tiny glasses You're like I bet this man is if love with peace also slight correction He's not that old, but I always thought he was much older because he was a grandfather at 40 So he was a wrestling grandpa and that made me think he was a bit older than he was right? He's not he's not like really old. I may have overstated that on the last episode gotcha Is I googled it no, it's okay. But yeah, one thing that I thought, okay. Yeah.

The bagpipes took me out of the last one a tiny bit. They did. Not to the point where I think it's a bad movie or anything like that. But there was another moment like that in this one. Okay. And that was when Stilgar is talking about the dangers of the desert.

Yeah. And he tells him to watch out for trapdoor spiders. Right. And to me, why are there trapdoor spiders there? Because there's trapdoor spiders everywhere. Why are they called that? Because it's an Orna trapdoor spider, Thopter. Right. I feel like those exist on Earth. Yeah.

And this would have to imply that they were somehow brought from Earth. Yeah. And this would have to imply that they were somehow brought from Earth. Yeah. Or that they evolved organically on Arrakis. Right. And they decided to call them Trapdoor Spiders as well. Made me a little bit, come on, give it a different name. That's one of my favorite things about sci-fi period

is just like half the time you're like, oh, it's a Jupiterian space spider, and the other half of the time it's, oh, it's a scorpion. It's a daddy longlegs. From Arizona. Wait, you called them that? What? I'm sorry, what now? Why?

They say, what do you want me to come up with a name for everything? Yes, it's your world. In every universe, that is a daddy longlegs. It's just a truth of I mean that was that was my that was a great Douglas Adams joke is that every Civilization has developed a drink called a gin and tonic does it spelled differently But it's all pronounced gin and tonic for some reason all different drinks, but for whatever reason I guess if that is a joke in this then I'll accept it It would be but if it's a trapdoor spider joke if it's a trapdoor spider joke. If it's a trapdoor spider joke it would be a good joke. I still don't think I understand

what the Bene Gesserit want. The Bene Gesserit and I so what's actually interesting about this question is that this is maybe the moral question of the entire series. If you want a world without conflict, a world without war, if you want a world without conflict a world without war if you want to end people fighting each other What are you doing? Are you? Domesticating people are you removing their ability to fight? Mm-hmm, are you are you saying we shouldn't fight are you convincing people not to fight? Are you forcing them not to fight and if you're forcing them not to fight? And if you're forcing people not to fight, you're the bad guy.

You're creating something of such force that people are afraid to ever fight again, lest you bring the ire of that thing. And that's just peace by terror. Right. So then their idea is we're going gonna breed it out of people. Hmm. Except not really. No. Because that would be stupid. They're going to breed the ultimate weapon. Right. And then he's gonna do it. I mean it's crazy. Have a god as a weapon. Yeah, essentially. They're trying to make a god because their conception of god is

similar to themselves as being you know Because we can see through the past we kind of get the idea of what's going on. We have the shape of the future What they what actually happens is if you have somebody who is existing in all times past present and future Simultaneously regardless of whether or not they are even alive There the universe is them. It's their universe. Even going backwards. Because it had to be going backwards. Because the only way this universe could exist is if they already existed to make this universe exist.

Yeah. Yeah. Worm. Yep. That's the problem. Yeah. I mean, I can agree with and get that and then I just want I just want to retreat back to worm. And you want to go back to worm. That's why Dune Messiah will be a much more interesting book to see filmed because it is not a fight. There is not a big worm showing up. Is there not there's not a fight with the great houses. Oh seem to be what the dude Skip it. Oh don't need it. Okay next movie Emperor bow so

Yep, I guess I mean I kind of am interested in spoilers. Mm-hmm. So what happens you've got the Emperor Yeah, it comes down. He's like, all right, you're cool. You can marry my daughter. This is this is fucking crazy This sucks. You just killed that bald dude. Yeah I I fucked up. I had a plan didn't work out. He did now the great houses are there Yep, and they put out the call that Paul is ascending. Yep, and they're like nah don't like it So then what so then and this that Paul's got to wipe out the great houses, right? You got it. This is the part that I I think is like both the ultimate expression of the theme and also

The one that's wrong about everything or that's been interpreted wrong. I don't know How would that humans are wrong about everything so at the end of this in order for Paul to survive? He's like we got to do it We got to take over everybody So all of the Fremen the millions and millions of Fremen who have only ever lived in the desert Their entire lives only ever fought the harcone in their entire lives suddenly get on spaceships travel all throughout the galaxy murdering people left and right conquering every fucking planet They can and killing everybody who gets in their way, okay? Okay? That's the holy war that sort of implied

Because that's the only way because Paul is the only way for Paul to survive is if he becomes emperor Otherwise the other great houses are gonna kill him or even the people who work with him are gonna kill him right the only way For him to become emperor is if he takes over the other grey houses. And the only people who can do it for him are the Fremen. Now the Fremen don't know anybody. Uh-huh. They don't know anybody. They don't know about these grey houses.

They don't know about any of this shit. They were living there and then these people showed up and started murdering them. And then Paul, their messiah, is suddenly like, Hey, let's leave this planet and murder everybody else So I cannot die exactly because I'm God I Do I do appreciate that at least you know Paul is not presented like altruistically, right? You know like they do a better job of that. Yeah, there isn't a feeling that like Granted he's like yeah, I'd like you guys to be able to live on your planet

But that's a side thing. Yeah to the larger goal that I have. Yeah But I appreciate that You know, you're not you're not left feeling like Yeah, Paul. No, no, that's good. And you don't feel that throughout too. You know, there's a menace to him and to Jessica, both of them, throughout the movie. And I think that's probably a positive way to present what they're all about.

Yeah, they did. I mean, you know, the criticism for so many of these stories is usually correct of like, this is the colonizer narrative. And you're, yeah. But it is, this is the colonizer narrative. And you're, yeah. But it is. It is the colonizer narrative, but Frank is kind of pointing out like.

You're on first name basis with him? Yeah. Frank? Well, it's better than his son. Because I was gonna say Herbert, but then it might be reference, dude. Don't worry about it. I'm sorry.

It's a colonizer narrative turned on its head, but also made worse Yeah, exactly. This is this is the bad guy the main character that you are watching It gets the entirety of dune for you to feel justified in what he's doing, right? Barely. I mean the sort of okay That's the layers of the onion right in this This one layer which is his fight against the Harkonnen's yes like in that sense There's a justification of taking out the Harkonnen's yeah, and what have you yeah, but once we get past that layer Nothing is justified everything is a complete mess and because magic powers exist. Yep. I don't even know what to think

Yeah, yeah, that's the that's kind of the interesting question of Well religion hmm Our magic you know like when magic powers are real that changes the Conception of morality I think for anybody who is really going to wrestle with I think for anybody who is really going to wrestle with magic and the powers therein Your your conception of what is and is good and good bad are have to be different In just in subjugation to there being a god, but there's also like okay, so in in this universe There's magic. That's a trick like Jessica surviving the poison is a trick

Kind of and the voice is a trick. Yes. It's something that you learn and you can like it's her training, right? Right, right. Right. That's not really magic, right necessarily, right? There's something that's being done Whether it's like, you know those people who can modulate their body temperatures so they can survive in really cold places. Sure, sure, sure, sure. You know, like, that's kind of what the poison thing is. Yes, yeah, yeah. The spice gives you the ability to do that, yeah. But there's also magic that's magic. Right.

And I feel like there's a distinction between the two. Like if we live in a universe where someone can survive this poison because they did a trick, then I'm not like, I don't know. It doesn't, it's not magic. Yeah. There is magic though. Well, if we live in a universe where somebody can manipulate their genetic code

to now make an enzyme that processes the poison in your liver or whatever. Right. That is magic, right? I guess if that's the mechanics of it, then it is magic. But it's also slightly not, I mean if that's the mechanics of it then it is magic but it's also slightly not I mean it's different I agree with you from like I can talk to my ancestors from hundreds of thousands of years ago yeah and

really actually talk to them it's not it not a thought it's never like is this all in their head no no no no this is 100% factual yeah yeah it's it's It's not factual. Yeah. Yeah. It's difficult. Yeah. And it points, Paul is able to, as far as the voice goes, one of the things that Paul does is he just becomes Leto in front of James Brolin's character in order to, he's like, how do I trust you with all this stuff? And then he just adopts all of this stuff because he can actually speak to his dad now. And once you become the Kwisatz Haderach, you have the voice of your dad there who's real, who's a not dead version of your dad.

And you can just embody them. At all times. This is a mess. Uh-huh. Oh, it's a real mess. And it gets even messier in Children of Dude, the third book, whenever we see what Saint Alia of the Knife can really fuck up with. Because if you call something an abomination, usually there's a reason for it. And we find out what that reason is. Because she's a child that knows everything.

Well, there is, see, but that on its face isn't terrible. Yes it is. Well, I mean, it's terrible. Because you don't have the maturity and you know you're not an adult and maybe make capricious child decisions I think it's actually the opposite is the problem is that you're trapped in a baby you're an infinite being with knowledge of Centuries upon millennia of experience in life that we could never even process and you go She seems to be able to communicate pretty well. She does pretty good psychic powers of being what they are. Yeah magic helps. Hmm. Yeah, so I I

Am infuriated. Yeah that this story isn't fully told Yeah But I think it's a good movie. I think it was well done But it it does drive me crazy Like the way the first one ended with like tune in next time right and I felt okay about that right because I understood There's a part two. Yeah I'm kind of livid that there's a part three or a part three that may never exist Because it's not if I told you it's not done

What if I told you dude is never, which is the fucking problem with it There's a hundred fucking books all this nonsense. You tell me about the plot What if I told you that that is not true what there's only like six books or whatever I can't remember because Frank Herbert died And the story was never finished right? That's the proper that not once that's the problem This doesn't end kid quote unquote Right, that's the proper that's not once that's the problem this doesn't end kid quote-unquote Found his notes or whatever and decided to finish the story only it happened to be very very bad

So was it the end of the story? Well? I mean, I think that's probably You know what happens with these kinds of epic grand stories tough Game of Thrones could never end Satisfactorily do we'll never end satisfactorily like the 84 movie tried never end satisfactorily. Dune will never end satisfactorily. Like the 84 movie tried to end satisfactorily as a contained story and it felt fucking silly. And then they went to the waves and the title cards of people and it looked ridiculous. And I get that, but it sucks. It sucks.

I mean, the problem is it is a story about religion and Religions can only a religious story only ends one way with everyone dying and the rapture or whatever it is You know what I mean? Like you can't end the Bible with Jesus being like and I'll be back in a few days You know it has to be Seventh seal will open and then God and there's a big battle And then there's a showdown, but each one ends with that guitar lick. Yeah, absolutely, but it's not that's frustrating But that's what you're gonna get forever Forever it's what we're gonna get in our human lives

Yeah, we don't have magic. I guess I would have a criticism that it felt Artificially like completed for the sake of a movie's sake if it did that. But then I have the alternate complaint that it's just left open-ended and it's like an episode on TV. It is. Because it didn't do that. Right.

So there's a way they could have forced it and it would have felt cheap, whereas I guess this is what they probably should have done, but it also feels unsatisfying and like the door isn't closed. This is where we get back to postmodern critical theory. Because when you read Dune, when Dune exists before other Dunes exist, It is a lot less muddled. The story that you can read from Dune can be far more straightforward, because Dune could probably, possibly,

have been only one book, right? So when he's writing it, he's writing it that way. Now, as time goes on, now he's got more stuff that he's adding, which changes the original meaning of the book, which means that if you're going to Adapt it then you have to make your own choice as to whether or not you're going to engage with just the text of dune Just the text of his work just the text of all of the dune text Or you're just gonna go fuck it. It's mine. You know yeah, and I think that if you only engage with the text you'll get a lot of blowback

Like you I wouldn't I would look fans, you know like but I mean, I think that's why I like doing more than I like some other stuff of you know, like I Don't I wouldn't get mad at somebody if they whatever about Star Wars or something like that But whenever there's a conversation about the last Jedi, I'm going to get into it. Whatever you feel about Dune, I'm cool with that. Go to town, buddy. There's so many ways. But I don't know if that's indicative of all the fan base.

I think there's a lot of very strong feelings. I'm sure. I'm sure there are. Which seems strange to me, because, but, whatever. I'm not a big fan of religion. Fair enough. And Dune is a book I would say almost entirely about religion and God.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, yeah, and that's the part that's really difficult because it's also like a political story and it's also like a hero's journey type story. But it is just so complicated that multiple people know that what they're doing is bullshit, or kind of know that what they're doing is bullshit, and still do it. But also what they're doing isn't bullshit.

Right. So that is the problem with making time a character in your story, because if time is a character, then that means people's decisions can then be evaluated on results later on, upon later on, upon later on. So if you're going to live with time as a character, then here's what you can run up against while you're writing, okay? So say I've got a character named Itler, all right?

And he has a vision. This is while his terrible country, Erminy, is under horrible oppression, all these people are pissed off, everybody's miserable. He has this vision from real ass God, real ass God, the real one, right? That says, if you don't do this, then Germany will go away forever and ever. But if you do this, you will be a monster, but eventually

you'll be part of the world leadership. Eventually your country will be part of the nations of nations. Eventually you'll be a leader economically, even despite all of that horrifying shit. But you will live forever as a monster. Yep So now you have that question You don't have am I a good person if I commit a genocide? You have a am I a good person if I commit a smaller genocide? There will always if time is a character then your problem is always going to be the trolley problem For every decision you make if you're Paul Atreides,

okay, so I go on a tear and kill everybody in the universe and become the emperor. I don't kill everybody. There's plenty of people left. I just killed a bunch of people who would have lived if I hadn't. But if he doesn't exist, then a bunch of people are going to kill a bunch of people anyways The only difference is agency. The only difference is in this story But it is definitively Paul's fault and Paul could choose to keep all of those people alive. But here's the thing Mm-hmm. Okay, so if Paul just died, yeah in the Sword fight with bald guy yep

How does everyone end up dying then? Well, that's the problem there if he dies in a sword fight with bald guy bald guys kid is gonna become the quiz out It's hot rock the bened jesuit are probably gonna be able to control that kid right kid will also become the emperor And so we'll have the quiz out Todd rock being the Emperor anyways only it won't be Jessica's son it'll be Fade Rotha's son. Right. Yeah. Seems arbitrary. It's very arbitrary. That's also the problem with religion, but man. Paul, he has the agency and he has the choice. Yes. The end result is bad for everyone no matter what. Right. It's really just selfishness. The end result is bad for everyone no matter what. It's really just selfishness. Exactly.

He is, because in this universe, he is the only person who can make a decision. For now. Right. Like, if he punted and he just said, okay, I'm gonna go and fight off everyone who comes to attack me or whatever and I'm not gonna do any of this bullshit yep then fade Ratha's son would come around and then become the kids at Sotorak or whatever and then that kid would have agency that kid would have ultimate agency yes and so I mean that kids probably gonna have to kill you though Maybe so you know I mean it is it is that kind of thing where with two beings who are ultimate on the same planet

Exactly well, but I mean that's it What's so fun about that is to me? That's an infinitely more interesting story because to me we live like that Everybody has agency if everybody has, then you have to respect everybody else's agency when you're shitting on other people and taking it away from them. But then what if only two people have agency? Well, but, but I mean, in this universe, only one person has agency. Right. So the conflict is between does this person make the right choice of the trolley problem? Always.

The conflict is what is justifiable if the end result is known? If I know that me being a good person now will cause extinction for humanity in a thousand years, then is it not my responsibility to do the thing that will keep humanity alive for 10,000 years? Is that my responsibility? Am I the person, am I being altruistic by being a monster in order to keep humanity? It's cruel to be kind.

Right? But the reality of that is that's dumb. That is a dumb way of viewing things and it's a dumb way of looking at life because you don't know the outcome of things. Except they do. Exactly.

In a situation where you do know the outcome, where you have a concrete awareness of what the future will be and you can choose a bespoke one, specifically the one you want. Yes, your actions are blah blah blah. That's the problem with presenting the hypothetical in the context that it does in this story. Yes. It's like the magic powers existing kind of... Undercuts the whole idea.

A little bit. But it still provokes a lot of interesting questions. Yeah, I mean the trolley problem is always interesting because you don't know, you know, what if whatever happens, whatever unknown ramifications of your actions spiral out right? Yeah, but if the trolley problem is not only do I know what's going to happen Am I a bad person if I say saving this one guy is more important because that guy eventually becomes a doctor that say buh You know am I a bad person right because I have to make the choice and the I think the conclusion is

Anyone with agency is making both the right and wrong choice at all times Because you're either gonna live or die mm-hmm and so if you're alive Then you've made the right choice, and if you're dead, then you've probably also made the right choice. It doesn't matter Unless you're God in which case you fucked up That's the ultimate conclusion. I think that might be the ultimate conclusion, but again, it was an unfinished series. Yeah. Only six books.

He had so little time to get his point out. Oh my God, so many words. So many words. I can't begin to describe how long some of those are. I have a couple of stray thoughts. Yes. The first is that I thought it was bullshit that House of Traides happens to have their atomic stuff

on Arrakis. Shouldn't it be on their home planet? I don't even wanna. That was a little bit convenient. It was the most convenient. Yeah. I love a good, oh by the way, we have infinite power over here.

Yeah, I thought that was a little bit, I'm guessing that's in the books too. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We brought the one ring from home just in case we needed it right Yeah, we even though we got jumped and killed the day after we got here. These are just here Yeah, well we hid them in plain sight because we're geniuses. I found that to be troubling Yep, and then the other thing sort of flip side of this. Mm-hmm It's very difficult for Christopher Walken to exist in something and not be a distraction. And I think he did okay.

I mean, it's weird because it's like, you're Christopher Walken. Why aren't you Christopher Walkening right now? But at the same time, it's like, you're doing a good job, Christopher Walken. But you're Christopher Walken. I think he's been Christopher Walken for so long. And there's so many people who have done impressions of him and he's become a caricature that it is very difficult for him to exist in a role like I said, that's not distracting. Yeah, I think he's not distracting as the Emperor which is a Yeah testament. It does seem weird. It does seem weird for him to have a job. Mm-hmm

Like he's just Yeah, yeah, you're just you should just be you right and instead. He was doing like he's acting Yeah, yeah, it's good well played Chris So anyway, I've seen you now you've seen dune now mm-hmm. How do you feel um I feel better for it? I guess do you I guess I have I feel better for it, I guess. Do you? I guess. I have some context, I have some references. Yeah. I have some thoughts.

It definitely, it raised questions about obligation and prophecy and what have you, but it was a good movie. Yeah. The new ones are good. First one, I don't even know what I think about it anymore the 84 one Yeah, I swear if you watch it about 13 14 more times. It's gonna really open up for you. See there's a This I get how it hooks people you know what I mean like that's why I haven't watched this I understand People like getting into it deep. Yeah, like I I can understand, especially if it hits you

at the right age, and I could see how this kind of a story, particularly how I'm imagining the books, because I haven't read them. Oh, imagine you were, I don't know, probably somebody was like, imagine if you were prophesied. Mm-hmm, oh. Really hit you hard, this oh shit I wasn't even you know I wasn't even taken into

account that way yeah I didn't have much of a shot yeah even if you are a non heralded child these are interesting questions yeah it raises a lot of like interesting stuff and the characters are Compelling so I get it I get how someone could get hooked and I worry about myself a little bit because there is a part of me that is Now very curious. Yeah, because this two part Five and a half fucking hour movie or whatever ended with no satisfactory Conclusion of anything. I don't even know the worm kid. So there's part of me that worries that it's like someone has given me a little

bit of crack and I'm gonna have to go look for a hit. Yeah, I think for me it was kind of, you know, what am I gonna do? I was, this is the only, maybe, I think maybe like, I would go with Highlander as far as like, manufactured shit. Like, coming into this from a point of view of like, this is both real and not real. You know that this is not real. But shit keeps happening, man.

It's fucking crazy. So as somebody who was prophesied as a child, how does that affect your relationship with the material? I find my relationship to it to be, I think the opposite of what people would have expected. Because I think that's probably a large part of how I wound up being who I am is like immediately rejecting the idea Whenever I read doing it like eight of how silly this is while embodying it like there is a

Certain part of you that remembers like if, if you're a 12-year-old kid or something, you've got this fucking prophecy on your ass head, and then you're reading this book about how this guy who doesn't want to be the prophet is like, well, eventually I guess I'll just have to kill everybody. It's the only way. It's the only way to survive. Then there's a part of you that is like, it has to be easy to get swept up in. And there's a part of me that sees like,

when Alex starts doing some of that like megalomaniacal shit, there's a part of me that feels that it's a certain type. And it's a type that I know because it's like, I could walk into it to a certain extent. And it's a type that I know because it's like, I could walk into it to a certain extent. Like I've got the, I've got the, I've got the resume. You have that backstory that you could use incredibly well to your advantage if you wanted to weaponize it.

Totally, but it's, yeah, so just that choice of not doing it ever and forever, like it has to be a constant forever, you know? I think part of that, and I'm not saying, I'm not trying to diminish what you're saying. Oh no, please, please. But magic isn't real. Exactly.

So if you actually had magic powers, it would be much more difficult for you to deal with the fact that you were prophesied because you're like, oh wait, I also have magic fucking powers. Totally, totally. The problem though is like when you're like, oh wait, I also have magic fucking powers. Totally. Totally. The problem, though, is when you're in it, especially at religious level, magic is real. And that means that there were a bunch of weird things

that happened while I was growing up that weren't not like, no, not miraculous weird. Weird like some, like one of our neighbors who I'd never spoken to, had never met before, just like one day walked in and was like, I had a dream about your son and then gave me $500. I'm not joking. Well that's just weird.

That's insane weird, right? But if that hits you at the wrong time, when you're in the wrong head space, you're like, holy shit, it's a sign. Right? Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it goes along with that. It's not just like a weird thing that happened to me. It's a weird thing that happened to the guy

with the fucking prophecy on his head, you know? Right, right. So there is that instinct of like, it's possible if you've got more than one piece of evidence to convince yourself that something is true, despite the fact that it is absolutely silly. So do you think Paul just some of these things hit him at the wrong time? I mean what's what's interesting about Paul is the choice that he makes later on. Which we don't have in this movie. Which we don't have in

this movie. I'm to understand that he takes out his eyes. Yeah well his eyes are taken out but he can see the future so if something happens to him he did it. Right. Right? So he chooses everything. Yeah, and so eventually you get to the point where there is that choice. Live or die. If I live everybody dies. If I die everybody lives. Mm-hmm. So that is the Jesus story and what I that's what I find interesting about it, is that in the first dune, you have the manufactured Messiah, and then in the third dune,

you have the conversation between what you would expect to kind of like, resurrected Jesus and God would have a conversation of being like, hey man, that didn't solve shit, did it? Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna come back. I don't think I'm gonna come back. You can handle this one bounce and then worm and then worm Well, it'll be interesting to see if that movie ever It'll be interesting, but it's it's done now

I still don't really fully understand what the Ben and Jas are interrupted. There's a mini series where you can watch James McAvoy get eaten by a sand trout. Well, I know what I'm doing tonight. I know what I'm doing. Dune. Dune Messiah. Is that what that's called?

I believe it's Children of Dune. Children of Dune. Or maybe, whatever. Anyway, I'm doomed out. It's time to be Dune with Dune. Yes. That's called I believe it's children of do children or maybe the whatever anyway I'm doomed out your it's time to be doomed with dude. Yes But thank you, thank you for exposing me to this and taking me down this path and sharing your experience to It's it helps. You know I just flesh out some of some of your side

No, it is it is like it's kind of fascinating To have a weird connection with Alex mm-hmm just that that like I know I know your thoughts sometimes not because I'm smart but because I am fighting them Or because I've read the same sci-fi Affected me it affected me similarly, and I could make your choice mm-hmm, and that's yeah. It's weird well good thing You didn't yeah, it's nice hooray instead. I'm doing this which is completely different sure It's a little different slightly so We'll be back. Indeed. I guess.

Indeed we will. But we have a website. Yep, knowledgeride.com. We are not on social media. That is true. I'm neither Neo nor Leo nor Desiax Clark. I am not the mysterious professor. Woo yeah woo yeah woo!

And now here comes the sex robot. Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding. Hello, Alex. I'm a first time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work.