L&D In Action: Winning Strategies from Learning Leaders - Clear Is Kind: Promoting Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Head On with Bold Conversations and Allyship

Episode Date: August 29, 2023

Work doesn’t happen in a social vacuum. In fact, it becomes more clear by the day that sustained changes to behavior, power structures, and policy are all necessary to pursue true equity in the workplace–much like in society at large. But how do we ensure any education or solutions we deliver actually have long-term impact? And how do we have the difficult conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion? This week, we’re joined by activist, consultant, influencer and HR leader Rachel Lauren, who offers insight from the frontlines of advocacy.

You're listening to L&D in Action, winning strategies from learning leaders. This podcast, presented by Get Abstract, brings together the brightest minds in learning and development to discuss the best strategies for fostering employee engagement, maximizing potential, and building a culture of learning in your organization. Today I speak with Rachel Lauren. Rachel is a conscious social influencer who is passionate about racial equity, women's rights, and holistic wellness. By profession, she is the chief people officer at Dream.org, a nonprofit founded by Van Jones

focused on minimizing poverty and creating a sustainable future. Rachel is also founding partner and chief programming officer for Diversified, a boutique diversity, equity, and inclusion consulting firm. Through her popular social platforms, work with businesses, speaking engagements, and direct advocacy, Rachel promotes equity and justice inside and outside of the workplace. As a proud adoptive mom of three, Rachel also fights to improve the lives and circumstances of black and brown children in the foster care and adoption systems. Let's dive in. Rachel, it's a pleasure to have you on. Thank you for joining me. Thank you, Tyler. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. So let's just start off quickly by centering this conversation. We're going to talk about

DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion. This is a very complicated topic. I've also seen other terms thrown in with these three letters. I've seen B for usually belonging. I've seen justice. There are many different ways to kind of frame the purpose of DEI in various organizations. But just to center things, I'd really like it if you would go ahead and define what you think the ultimate goal of diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts should be. For sure. Well, I think equity is actually the foundation of DEI work. So I always say I know that it comes DEI, but what I've found in practice is most people are comfortable with the diversity part just because it covers so many things. It's not just race. It's not just gender or sexual preference. It's the way that you think.

It's your upbringing. So it's a lot easier for organizations and people to say, yes, I believe in diversity and I want diverse staff, for example. But equity means that you're actually acknowledging that everyone doesn't have the same set of things to start with, right? Like we're not all starting in the same place. And because of that, you need to create things that allow people to reach the same playing field before you even get to the other elements. And that can be really difficult for people to understand because same playing field before you even get to the other elements. And that can be really difficult for people to understand because it has a lot to do with society, systemic issues, processes, and policies.

So I always say equity is the first thing. Let's make sure that everyone that wants to be here actually can be here. And so how do we do that? And then diversity kind of comes second because then once we've figured that out, then we can actually attract the right talent, have different individuals that can be in the room and can compete for the same positions or different things. And then inclusivity really just takes into account that people have different ideas of what it means to belong somewhere and to feel included and to feel like they're seen, heard and respected. And so that is more so about the feeling, the culture, and the things that are kind of put into place through diversity and equity.

For those listening, we are recording this episode on, I guess it's August 24th, 2023. It's an important time to have this conversation for a number of reasons. There have been some serious legislative setbacks. And for those of you who have ever wondered about my politics, you're about to kind of learn where I stand, but there's been some serious legislative setbacks. And for those of you who have ever wondered about my politics, you're about to kind of learn where I stand. But there's been some serious legislative setbacks recently in terms of what I consider equity and justice overall, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, even in terms of racial justice. We've seen a lot of things happen recently. Affirmative action was dealt a blow. There's just been a slew of anti-LGBT rhetoric and legislation, Roe v. Wade being overturned. Lots of things have happened in the past summer, in the past several months.

And ultimately, I guess my question, you have many different perspectives on this as an individual, as an advocate, as an activist, but also somebody who works with companies on their efforts to do these things. What do you think companies and organizations and leaders should be doing right now in this climate? Are people required to take a stand? Are companies and organizations required to take a stand just because they're a part of the economy, the industry and society at large? Yeah, I think so. Businesses are part of the community. Like you said it, you know, yourself even imposing the question, there's a responsibility that we have as individuals, but we definitely have a responsibility as organizations.

You know, if we contribute to the marketplace, if we can contribute to the community, then we should care about it. And so, yes, it starts from within and it definitely starts with the things that you do within your organization for your staff. But guess what? At the end of the day, they go back out into the community. So they're dealing with everything that happens outside of works walls and the impact that it does even internally. And so you should care about that. And that should be a part of your mission. I think depending on the organization that might determine the types of things that

you get hardcore involved in or speak out on, I understand that there's so many issues. So it's difficult to speak on everything and to fix everything. But you should have a starting point and always go back to that place of this is who we said we are, and this is what we said we'll do. And this is the position that we have here. And how will we use the power that we have to make a change and a difference and to stand for what we believe in? In a past career, I was very involved with a number of psychologists and sociologists who were advocates and activists in the same direction. And I don't remember who it was specifically who put me onto this idea, but when it came to diversity and fighting for justice in this way,

somebody told me to think of it in like four different pillars when you're thinking about a company, for instance. And that means that in terms of the people that work at that company, you know, you must be diverse, you must be inclusive. The products and services that that company actually delivers must consider those principles in what it's creating and giving to the world. You know, the messages that it puts out into the world as well as kind of like a third pillar, the brand and the messaging and how it communicates publicly PR. And then also like in terms of leadership, which is like personnel at a second level, you can't just be, you know, hiring diversely and saying, okay, we did it. We hit our quotas now. Like you have to actually have people of color and queer people and just women in leadership

positions essentially. So do you think of things that way as well when you're doing your DEI work? Is it mostly internal or do you try to instill that in a more broad, like multifaceted manner? No, it's definitely a broad approach. And I think when you are trying to impact change in an organization, it does need to start somewhere. And oftentimes it has to start at the top. Because honestly, that's where decisions are made. And people need to see that leadership cares about these things and that they're doing something about it. But it is something that

touches everyone. So you have to include everyone. And to kind of put the two questions that you've asked together prior to this one. I do think that like who you say you are on the inside should show on the outside, which really speaks again to your responsibility and the approach that you have. So when you're working with an organization, when you're working with a business and you're figuring out what kind of work you're going to be doing, do you have systems or metrics for actually assessing how that company is doing? And if so, you know, what are you looking at? How are you judging how well a company is progressing in terms of DEI? Yeah. So, you know, a lot of organizations have basic data just around what the demographic of the organization might look like, retention,

things like that. And so I do take into account those things because they do tell a story. But I also feel as though sometimes the metrics that are captured are limited. People are more than numbers. And so when I go into organizations, depending on the work I'm doing, I do suggest surveys because no one can tell us what's really happening, how people feel, and what people might not even see on a large scale day to day, except for those individuals that are living it. So a lot of times I will actually start my work with a survey and allow staff to really tell me what it is that's happening, how they feel, what diversity really means to them. An example even is a lot of times when we do demographic data, it's just the very basic checks of a box that come when you start a job, right?

You say, this is my race, this is how I identify, but those are limited. There's the check only one box, for example. So a lot of times I encourage organizations to do diversity surveys that allow people to identify themselves without limitation, because that really gives you a true representation of who's there. And then you can actually build equitable approaches and processes as well as ensure that you're doing engaging and inclusive things in your environment. So who are you working with most closely when you're doing these things? Are you with C-suite leadership? Are you with middle management that are directly overseeing the people? Is it like the HR and learning folks? Is it a mix of everybody?

Yeah, I think it definitely varies depending on the client. Everyone that you've named I've worked with. But my requirement is to really meet with someone that is on the C-suite executive level, top of the organization, if you will, because I need to know that they're bought in. A lot of times those individuals assign the work to someone else to get it done. But like I said before, it is important that the people at the top understand what's going on, actually care and are bought into this for there to be sustainable change. There's going to be a lot of moving parts. And so no, they won't be the only people that are being worked with, but they need to know what's happening and be involved. And I actually

think that it changes even the morale of staff to see those individuals care and take the time to actually be a part of the process. Do you generally find that when you get to work with those people at the top that they do care? Is there work that you have to do to convince them that this matters? Do you draw a line and say, sometimes I just, you know, I can't work with these people?

How do you handle it? Absolutely. There's definitely a mix. There are some people that this was their idea to begin with, and they do see the value. And a lot of those people, you know, even going back to some of the stuff that we talked about that's happening in the community, they will stick to what it is they said they wanted to do, despite what legislation is saying, despite, you know, the different challenges that are happening. And that showed me that they actually cared from the beginning. And there are others that are like, you know, there's a bunch of squeaky wheels and I'm just doing this to appease them, unfortunately. And I think the thing for me, especially in consulting and in being a Black

woman is I get to choose who I work with. I don't have to take a client and I won't because I refuse to harm myself in the process. So there are people that I've said no to because I understand that if you're not open, then my work really won't affect the people that it needs to affect because it needs to start with you. And where is it going to go? So let's talk about methodology then. When it comes to teaching DEI, what actions or teachings are most impactful? I mean, you have to do a lot of, a lot of change has to take place.

There has to be the unlearning of unconscious bias and understanding what systemic discrimination is. A lot of things that these people probably just didn't learn in their formal education and still have been blind to for much of their adult lives. And actual solutions are complex. So what works best? Are you doing scenario-based training, like one-on-one coaching, collaborative discussions? What works best for you? Again, I do think that it depends on the client. Because again, depending on how large the organization is, the different areas that we're focusing on, and even the starting point, everyone isn't at the same place. And organizations are not at all at the same place. Some have started this work and started this journey, might even have DEI departments or individuals built into the

organization and are reaching out for supplemental assistance. Others are completely starting from scratch and don't have some of that understanding. Regardless, what I do know is that everyone comes from a different background, and therefore they not only have different experiences, but different training. And so I usually have to start figuring out a place where I can kind of bring everyone to the same point. So some stuff might be redundant, right, for people, but I think it's important for them to actually see individuals that don't know the stuff they know, learn it. And so we do start off leveling the playing field and acknowledging that people are at different places and admitting that there are

going to be some ignorance that comes out and that's okay. But in order for us to actually grow and get better, we need to acknowledge that that exists. And in terms of approach, I love interactive training. So a lot of the training that I do is definitely interactive. There's group discussion, there's breakout sessions. I want people to feel like I'm not talking at them, but I'm working with them. So that is definitely a part of my approach. And then I do more than training. So I do, like I said, process and policy advisement and also do coaching and managerial training. So it just depends again on the organization. And I go in and assess what's needed. Can you tell me a little bit what like coaching, for instance, looks like?

That might be more intimate and a little bit harder to describe because, again, it depends. But I'd love to hear more about like what you're actually doing if you're coaching one on one or even with a group or something like that. Yeah, my coaching is one on one and it usually consists of leadership. Yeah, my coaching is one-on-one and it usually consists of leadership. Normally, those are the individuals, like I said, that need to kind of buy in and understand what's happening in the organization, but also realize their own holes and the things that they can work on themselves to actually, again, sustain the change that needs to happen in the organization. And so it is one-on-one.

Usually I have one-on-one hour sessions that look either weekly or biweekly, depending on the client and depending on the need. And we actually work through real examples of things that are happening. I'm able to start my coaching with really assessing where they are and figuring out what it is that we need to focus on and the challenges that they might be facing or the blind spots that they might have. And we work through that in the coaching model. Yeah, that's really fascinating. So when you say like real examples, are you talking about like, do you discuss current events with them and like historical events and that sort of thing? Yep. Current events, historical events, but also really what's happening in their organization, manager and direct report, maybe issues that might be coming up, lack of understanding between differences,

managing across the difference is a really big thing. I actually have a training on that, but that's something that I definitely help people in coaching with because the truth is there isn't a one size fits all to be a manager and to be a great leader. And so it's understanding what it means to acknowledge differences

and manage individuals through that. I was gonna, I had this question on my list for toward the end because it's a good wrap up question, but I wanna ask it now just cause I think it's relevant to this point. Do you like assign any readings or recommend any readings or any like additional material to people? Because if you haven't figured out by now, dear audience, I'm a white guy. And I learned about this stuff mostly through reading when I was in school, plenty of theorists and also fiction and that sort of thing. But that's how I learned about issues of diversity and injustice and that sort of thing. And it really changed my life in a serious way. So are you recommending anything like that? Or even these days, some social media accounts are really effective teachers and that sort of thing. You do a good amount of that yourself. Any sort of just additional resources that you're recommending people to do almost like

as homework or something like that? Yeah, there are definitely books that I recommend. How to Be Anti-Racist is definitely one of them. There's one. That Ibram X. Kendi? Yes. There is another one that's We Are Not Yet Equal by Carol Anderson. That's a great one. An Unconscious Bias book by, her last name is Fuller, I believe. So there's a list of books that I recommend. There's also a list of books that I recommend. There's also several kind of videos that I, or even Netflix documentaries and different things

that I'll challenge people to watch and to pay attention to that will definitely assist. And there are LinkedIn accounts actually now too that I recommend people follow. One that comes to mind, Janice Gassam Asari. She has her doctorate in DEI. She has a book called The Pink Elephant, which is another really good workplace DEI book. She posts pretty regularly some great content.

Great. Thank you for those recommendations. Yeah. So back to questions of methodology and who you're working with and that sort of thing. I assume that a good portion of what you do is hopefully getting some help from the people within the organizations themselves. I like to think that any organization that's big enough is going to have strong advocates and believers of pursuing social justice and racial justice within them. And I would like to think that you're able to sort of use those people as champions and

supporters and that sort of thing. But I guess to jump into this series of questions, you already mentioned that you kind of start everybody on a level plane, but do you ever have different ways of getting people into it? You know that some people already know what the issues are, so you don't necessarily have them do certain things. Do you ever put people into different buckets and teach them differently? Or is it usually, like you said, making sure that everybody is on the same plane so that they can see who else maybe isn't on the same plane as them? Yeah, I mean, I think in a group setting, it's hard to kind of separate individuals. I try not to do that. And I think the techniques that I use and the dialogue that I use allows people to kind of see where they are at without having to actually separate them. I do think, like I mentioned before, that just the coaching and some of the approaches that I

have that are intertwined in my method help with that, especially if I am consulting and I'm actually deep within an organization. So I can see not just in a training setting, but again, in these like one-on-one sessions or through building relationships and helping them with maybe other parts of the organization, who it is I need to work on certain things with. But I think when I'm doing just trainings, I've built it enough and I'm aware enough, right, to the point where I can understand who might need a little bit more, but not having to like isolate them to do it. Yeah. So do you then work with any, you know, sort of champions, like I said before,

are you finding people in the organizations and activating them? Or I'm sure that you've gone in and worked with departments that already exist dedicated to DEI, and you're kind of working on an initiative that they're trying to promote or something along those lines. But what is the collaboration with those who are already like, you know, pretty deep into these issues? deep into these issues. Yeah, absolutely. I'm an advocate for ERGs. I think ERGs really help carry the work in the workplace. Employee resource groups. So groups that actually, that ladder up to whatever DEI program or individual might be in the organization, those definitely help and you tend to find champions there. And if they don't have one created, I will help them create a program that does do that. But you absolutely need champions throughout the organization. Yes, it starts at leadership, but they only know so much about what's happening. And so it's important to have people at different levels with different understanding. There's no way to build an inclusive environment with one mindset or even just with one

level of leadership. So I like to pull from throughout the organization. And oftentimes when I go in, even before doing a training or anything, I ask like, who are the champions in your organization? Who comes to mind if they don't have this already built out? And there usually is an answer. People know who those individuals are and they're usually really excited to do the work. And depending on what that work looks like, I also advocate for compensation because that's another part of this work that people kind of take for granted is that it's just this side desk job. But there's a lot that goes into this and there's a lot of mental and emotional capital that you have to kind of provide. And so people need to be able to receive some level of recognition and compensation for it.

Yeah, of course. I agree. recognition and compensation for it. Yeah, of course. I agree. What advice do you have for those who are champions in their own organizations of DEI, where it's just not really an easy route to actually achieve some change? So I'm thinking of those maybe, you know, smaller organizations, but also larger organizations where there's just some intractable people who are either just, you know, opposed to the ideas. It's just kind of a non-starter where it's already maybe a not very diverse organization. It's just one of those busy organizations that just doesn't really think this is super valuable. What advice do you have for champions within those organizations who want to make some change? Yeah, definitely find your ally or allies and find your entry point.

The truth is everyone cares about DEI in some capacity. They just don't know it yet. And so you have to figure out where that is from a business perspective. There's so much data that proves just how beneficial a diverse workforce is. Right. And so you can find ways to pique interest. And I think that that's important to just kind of find those different ways so that you can have the right communication.

It's just like understanding that you can't communicate the same way with everyone. It's the same thing with DEI. Like you need to know exactly how to speak about it and what it is that's going to pique their interest before you dive into the deep end on some of the maybe harder topics. So there's that. And then allyship, which is something we could probably talk about forever. But my whole idea of allyship is like, you can't name yourself an ally. Oftentimes people do that. The people that you are allying for need to see that and they need to name it for you. Because sometimes allies just become the loudest person in the room and don't

actually hear. Right. And so I think those individuals have to find true allies that they think that they can trust to assist them with approaching the topic and bringing this to the people that can make change. And they might be the people that can make change that are those allies. So I spoke with Shane Snow in one of my recent shows, who is a sort of like a serial entrepreneur. He mostly does content creation, but he now I think he's actually involved in like full-on film production in addition to corporate education as well. And he's written a few books and one of his main topics is sort of like thought leadership topics is cognitive diversity. And this is, it's one of the categories, as you mentioned, you know,

diversity of thought, that sort of thing is what some people say. But I think this is an important question. Ultimately, you mentioned that there are benefits to having a diverse workforce, that sort of thing. I hate to have to like go into this just to say, hey, for those of you listening who want to know what the benefits are, you know, like we all know that they're there, but can we go over them a little bit? Like, you know, what do you think are the biggest benefits of having a diverse workforce? And are these the things that people come to you when you actually are working with organizations? Are they coming to you saying, I know this is going to improve my organization? Or are they saying, you know, I know this is the right thing to do.

So I want to get this done and take care of it. Yeah, I mean, people come with both. But in terms of the benefit, the most obvious is people that have different backgrounds and different minds are going to bring different solutions to the table in the workplace. Right. So if I grew up in X neighborhood and I dealt with this set number of things in my childhood and my adulthood, et cetera, then I have a certain outlook on these things and an understanding. And that can affect product, that can affect my communication, the way that I approach things. Whereas someone else that has a completely opposite upbringing, et cetera, will have a completely different idea. And bringing those two individuals into a room, that's going to actually give you more possible outcomes. It's going to give you a colorful picture of what the possibilities are, right? It's just a diverse mind, right? Diverse minds can create better outcomes for an organization. And that's just the reality. I think especially in a product

environment, which is something that you mentioned before, if you are the only person that is being considered when you're creating a product, well, then who's going to use it? How's that going to work for everyone? It's not. Yeah. This is a big question right now with AI and, you know, next generation technology coming through. I think it's pretty well established that AI has its blind spots. And I think we all know who's creating those AI products largely over in Silicon Valley and that sort of thing. But how do you see this sort of the next generation of technology?

I think that this is a solution that I've seen many people, including Shane, who I just mentioned. I think Christopher Lind might have been one who I spoke with previously. Plenty of people are advocating for a more diverse teams making the future of technology so that we're thinking about different perspectives and different kinds of people and what that means for such advanced, you know, intelligent technology to interact with these people. So, do you think that this is more important than ever to really be focusing on DEI for that reason? Absolutely. I mean, even when you think about what's kind of scary, you think about some of the technology that's coming out for police forces and, you know, targeting

individuals even. Like, you have to think about if there's only one type of person making anything, then it's not going to benefit the masses. I'm working with an organization called Ilios, and it's a new tech company. They're actually a dating platform, and they base their technology on astrology. So they're actually using astrology to help match individuals, which I think is really cool because there's diversity even in that. But what I love about them is from the top and from the very beginning, they're thinking, how is this going to land for different groups of individuals? They're looking at the product and saying, I see this this way, but what would be different for this community? And they're also combining that ideology with what they're doing on the outside too for the community, which kind of goes back to what we talked about earlier. So yeah, I think it's extremely important

for you to consider when it comes to AI, especially. I think it'll become really dangerous if everything is automated and there's only one or two types of people that are creating this automation. I think a lot of organizations, they tend to treat DEI as like a recruiting issue. As I said before, there's sort of maybe like a multi-pronged pillar type approach that I've been familiarized with. And it does sound like you also pursue that sort of ideology. But when it comes to developing diverse leaders in organizations, do you have systems for this? Do you have education for how to actually not just kind of recruit and make things more diverse, but actually to promote that diversity through the ranks and have the diversity kind of permeate organizations

in that way? Yeah, absolutely. And I think, again, even going into an organization, when I talk about the data that people usually have and the stuff that they don't talk about, that's one of them. It's like, this is what the organization looks like. We have X amount of this type of person, but then you're not looking about, you're not looking at where, like, well, where are they and why? And I think that that, again, goes back to process policy, inclusion, belonging, but equity, because how do you determine who gets to move into these leadership roles? What type of criteria do you have? How often do you look at this? These are all things that definitely matter. And it means nothing if you bring a bunch of diverse staff into an organization, but they all are on the lower level of the organization and they don't have the opportunity

to thrive and to grow because guess what? The people that are making decisions aren't diverse. So you're doing absolutely nothing for people. Yeah. I mean, in terms of actually teaching how to do this, are you working directly with those folks? Are you working with underrepresented people within companies as well and sort of like establishing mentorship systems or doing any direct mentorship yourself, maybe anything along those lines? Yes, I have done that in organizations. That is something that's been implemented. I think what is important, too, is for people to see themselves.

So again, if there are individuals, diverse individuals in leadership, how are they assisting with other minority groups in the organization? and leadership, how are they assisting with other minority groups in the organization? It's insane just what it does to the mind and then therefore the drive of an individual to see someone that just looks like them in a role that they might have never thought that they could attain. So I think mentorship is valuable, but also a lot of that can happen in the employee resource groups. So the employee resource groups are for everyone and they're based on different groups that might have similarities and sometimes the allies that support them. And it's a really great place to show that kind of dialogue or to have that dialogue and to give people the opportunity to speak and to train and to mentor in those spaces.

These conversations are difficult for a lot of people, especially us white folks, but I'm wondering, we talk a lot about leaders and teams on the show. When it comes to small teams, I don't know, anywhere from three to maybe like, even like up to 15, 20 people, I guess, there's always diversity in those sorts of teams or hopefully there is these days.

And having those conversations can be difficult, especially if somebody feels treated unfairly. So I wanna talk about sort of the two sides of the coin as a leader or as just maybe an advocate or an ally on a team like that. How do you have these conversations? How do you set them up in a safe way that doesn't maybe exoticize somebody

and doesn't other somebody, but simultaneously brings up the potential of an issue. Do you have any advice for that sort of thing? This is going to sound really basic, but clear as kind. Honestly, I think that sometimes we over-technique courageous conversations that have to happen. And we do it really in an attempt to keep the people that are maybe consciously or unconsciously making others uncomfortable, comfortable. And that is actually not what the basis of DEI work is, right? And so teaching people, one, not to be offended. Sometimes when they are called out for the

things that might offend others is important. You don't get to scream ouch when you're the one making other people say ouch all of the time. You know what I mean? And I think when you start DEI work in a place of, again, leveling the playing field, I always let people know that this is difficult. And if you're going to do this and you're going to lean in, then you're going to have to have difficult conversations. And that means you're going to have to be on the receiving end of them. But sometimes you're going to have to actually be the person to approach them and have them. And so honestly, I don't know that there's a technique as much as there is a willingness and openness. I also teach people that perception and intention

rule. It's something that I use a lot, which basically it's the idea that perception and intention are two things you can't argue with. Like perception is mine. How I perceive something, you can't tell me that I did or didn't perceive it that way. And I can't argue with. Like perception is mine. How I perceive something, you can't tell me that I did or didn't perceive it that way. And I can't argue with your intention. If you say your intention was XYZ, then I have to trust that that was your intention. However, there needs to be a meeting somewhere. And we have to acknowledge both parts of that. Yeah, I think that's incredibly important right now. I see just volumes and volumes of especially anti-LGBT hateful language on social media and in general media and that sort of thing. And there's always the refrain, you know, it's not hate, it's something else, you know.

It's, I don't want to see this or I don't want my children to see this, that sort of thing. And it's the perception, the reception and the perception of that is obviously not what those people intended to be. And at the end of the day, I think it's so important to remember that when we're having these conversations. Would you ultimately say the same thing to, I mean, I asked about allies and that sort of thing, but I suspect that you're kind of answering more generally, and this is your

general advice. But if somebody who is just vastly underrepresented in a company in terms of their identity or on a team, I feel like sometimes it can be dangerous to speak out in a frank manner, of course. There's the issue of tone policing and historically Black women, they behave a certain way being received in an incorrect and inappropriate way, that sort of thing. And I feel like it's more risky, for instance, for people of color to respond negatively to something that was already negative in the first place. So do you advocate for navigating around these things? Or do you really think it's best to just be frank in this day and age and really hit the issue head on?

Yeah, I mean, I do advocate for being frank, but I understand how difficult that can be and sometimes the risk that comes with it. And so I'm not naive to that. I do think, again, having the right allies on the right end is important. But also when I talked about some of the things that I do from the beginning, like the survey that I discussed, it gives people the opportunity to say things that they might not be able to verbalize and sometimes anonymously. And I actually challenge organizations to develop some sort of communication tool that gives people that ability to voice, right, like things that are coming up for them, things that they're seeing in the organization,

issues that they're having, or things that they want to see without having to single themselves out. And so there are methods and ways to do that and to create kind of this safe environment of communication and tools that can be used to support it. Yeah, I've talked a good amount about psychological safety in my last few episodes. That's sort of the broad now buzzword term that we use for this sort of thing. The idea of giving feedback in a safe environment is, it's a funny one. I do feel like we've entered this point where a lot of leaders in a lot of companies are saying, like, we're all open books, your bosses, me, the CEO, whomever, you can speak to us about anything.

You can call us anytime, you can talk to us. Like, especially if you go on like LinkedIn and you see what a lot of people are talking about, how they sort of run their organizations, the sort of like CEO influencers these days. There's a lot of like, you know, we have an open communication policy, but it still feels like that's not how people feel about the policies that are being put in place. It feels like it's much harder than the CEO wants for somebody to

just talk to them in a frank manner, because you're, you still theoretically could be putting yourself at risk because that person just has so much power. So I'm a believer that there needs to be intentional systems in addition to just the advocacy and the support for such open communication, such as anonymous feedback or after meetings and that sort of thing. There are other avenues for speaking up and speaking out that aren't in front of a bunch of people on the same Zoom call or in the same boardroom. So like whether it's anonymous, whether it's just a second chance or something like that, I feel like these things need to be in place. And maybe that's what you're kind of getting at as like a tool for communication. Is that kind of what you're talking about? Yeah, absolutely. The surveys that I do most of the time are anonymous and I go into organizations. I don't stay there forever. And so there's always

something that needs to be set up that can be used when I'm gone. I want to make sure that I teach individuals how to do this, like, for example, in yearly diversity survey, but continue it when I'm gone. What are some tools, to your point, that you can use so people feel comfortable being able to voice what it is they need to voice to, unfortunately, authority figures that might be able to put their jobs in jeopardy based on the things that they say, like, let's be real, we're still human. That's the thing that people don't want to acknowledge is like, we can say all of this stuff, we can work as hard as we want to, but at the end of the day, we're all still human. And so sometimes that's going to happen, right? We're going to have these reactions and these feelings and sometimes unconsciously. So how do

we make sure that we protect people in those instances? There's been generations of wrongdoing that have led to the inequality that we're talking about right now, which theoretically means that we need long-term solutions, generations of redoing in some cases. So what are you doing to do your best to make sure that the solutions that you provide and what you teach really is instilled for the long term. And it really sticks with these organizations in sort of a permanent or very long term manner. Again, the different processes and policies that are put into place tend to be one of the things that really can help. Because if you, for example, look at an employee handbook and the rules that go in it and the things that we say and like how we're going to do something, that tends to be the thing that people don't change that frequently.

So trying to put those in place the right way and making sure that those are still there definitely helps. But I actually do advocate for people to check on those like every couple years, make sure that they're making updates that are needed, putting those right champions in the places that they belong. And so setting up those groups, those communication tools, like all of that is the thing that makes it sustainable and stay while I'm gone. Teaching people how to speak up and empowering them to do the work and to share their voices allows people to continue it. And having the relationship built with the organization where it's like, hey, I might be gone, but that doesn't mean that I'm gone, right?

Like I'll check in on my past clients. I'll make sure that things are going well. I've built really great relationships with some of the people that I've worked with. And so being able to go back, check in and see what's happening is something I do. It's very kind of you to keep up with them like that. It sounds like a lot of long-term work, but respect for that. I want to talk a little bit more about ERGs before we wrap up. These are obviously something that I think a lot of organizations have some version of this, and that's kind of like their first steps

into this if they don't have like a proper DEI department or system in place. ERGs tend to be how things bubble up. And I actually, I was just before this call, I spoke with Helen Marshall, who is another L&D podcast host. And she has a group called Women In based out of the UK. That's just kind of like a, an HR organization specifically for women. So, you know, these things, they happen internally. They also happen externally where you can join groups of people that have similar jobs to you, but are at different companies and sort of share across those resources. But what do you see as the biggest value out of these groups and maybe how can they conduct themselves to extract the most value? It gives people the opportunity to find individuals that actually are like them in the workplace.

So that in and of itself creates a safe space most of the time. You don't get to always work directly with the individuals that might be like you. And so being able to relate in some capacity in that space really just helps. And, you know, we talked about communication and the avenues to communicate. It gives people the opportunity to say, I know I'm coming together with this group of people that will support me. And now I feel as though I can speak to X, Y, and Z. I can do the different things that I need to do. It gives allies, if you create the ERGs to include

allies, some of them do not. And I'm actually an advocate for both depending on what it is, but it gives allies the opportunity to actually learn and to take learning into their own hands. I think sometimes individuals that need to learn depend on everyone else to teach them. But if you can actually come to the group with an open mind and say, I'm here because I want to learn. It's not for you to teach me. I'm actually going to glean from you without demanding it. I think that that's helpful. And then I would say on the outside, a lot of times ERGs come together, like you said, and can find individuals at other organizations, but they also come together for the community aspect that we talked about.

So they know firsthand what it is that they'd like to see the organization step into, stand out on, et cetera. And a lot of times those ideas do come from those individuals and the ERGs. Last thing I'll say is I created what I call like a stoplight system in these ERGs. It's this red, green, yellow idea of communication. And so in the meeting setting, I challenge people to say, hey, red means that the people that identify as the members. So for example, black at X organization, those black individuals, they are the members. They're the identifying members. If they're having a meeting that they don't want other individuals in in that moment, that's okay.

They're going to call it a red meeting. Or if they want you to be there, but they want you to just listen, they might call it a red meeting. Like, listen, but we don't want your feedback right now. Yellow might be, there are certain things that we are asking that we want you to speak to, but outside of that, this communication and the way that we're dialoguing, we want you to kind of slow down a little bit and again, be here to listen.

And then green could completely be full engagement, want everyone to talk, et cetera. But it helps people instead of saying, hey, so-and-so, I need you to be quiet. It helps people to say, this is the stoplight system. This is the type of meeting we're in. This is the environment. Let's all follow it. You don't have to single people out that way.

I love that system. That's really creative. Just to follow up on that. I mean, how do you have to work with these groups to have those conversations so that they other members of that organization aren't put off by that sort of concept? Because I mean, I'm familiar with plenty of people who think that any sort of exclusive behavior is detrimental. I don't believe that myself, but I know there's a lot of people that think that if we're excluding or if we're segregating or in something like that, that it's going to be ineffective for some reason. So do you have to teach that into organizations sometimes? Yeah, in a way. You also need to have a mission statement for not only the ERG program overall, but each individual one and have what the setup is going to look like laid out. So it isn't a surprise. You're coming into this, you're signing up for this. This is the goal. This is how we operate. These are the expectations. And then normally people are fine. I think a lot of times when there is a feeling of

being excluded or anger that comes up, it's because it's like a last minute thing or something that might have happened in one meeting where they're confused. That didn't happen last time. It's important to lay the foundation, I guess, is what I'm saying. And so it's important to make sure that that's there prior. Sure. So I guess my last question then, again, back to those who are maybe trying to instill change or create change within

their organizations where it's just kind of a non-starter or even where cases where somebody is really feeling like they're being treated poorly you have any just general messages of perseverance of hope for those sorts of people and things how they can take more self-care and what they can do to just hold out hope yeah again find the people that you feel as though you can trust, but also at the end of the day, you have to take care of yourself. And I have actually coached people out of organizations and I'll continue to do that. Sometimes you have to recognize that the people and the place might not be it. You can try to change individuals, you can raise your hand, but if it is that difficult to be in an environment where your voice is heard, then sometimes you need to reassess. And I think that there's enough harm in society for so many people, you don't have to put yourself in a position to be in that again.

And I know that's easier said than done sometimes as well, but that really is the truth. Sometimes it really is about saying, I'm not going to do this anymore. And you might be the thing that changes the culture just by doing that and speaking your truth. Sometimes it really is about saying, I'm not going to do this anymore. And you might think that changes the culture just by doing that and speaking your truth. Great. Well, before we wrap up, can you just let our listeners know where they can learn more about you and what you do? Yep. Rachel Warren, you can find me on Instagram at theonlyrachel. And my website is theonlyrachel.com. Awesome. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for joining us and speaking with me today. For everybody at home listening, thank you so much for joining.

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