L&D In Action: Winning Strategies from Learning Leaders - The Power Quotient: Empowering Women to Show Their Worth and Rise into Leadership Positions

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

Still today, if you fill a room with 10 software developers, there’s a good chance that 9 of them will be men. In the technology industry–and in a handful of particular roles inside and outside of tech–women are vastly under-represented. Women of color even moreso. But by now, it’s also common knowledge that a more diverse workforce is more capable of innovation and creative problem-solving. So, how do we ensure that women not only move into lucrative, historically male-dominated roles, but also end up in leadership positions?

You're listening to L&D in Action, winning strategies from learning leaders. This podcast, presented by Get Abstract, brings together the brightest minds in learning and development to discuss the best strategies for fostering employee engagement, maximizing potential, and building a culture of learning in your organization. This week on the show, I welcome Shalmina Babai-Abji. Shalmina is the author of the best-selling book, Show Your Worth, Eight Intentional Strategies for Women to Emerge as Leaders at Work. Shalmina's illustrious career in technology included nearly two decades at IBM,

where as a VP and sales director, her teams oversaw between $1 and $2 billion of annual revenue. Now, her story leading up to these roles and achievements is fascinating, and it's a critical part of the messages she hopes to spread. So, I'm going to let her share that story herself, right at the top of this conversation. Let's dive in. Hello, and welcome to L&D in Action. I'm your host, Tyler Lay, and today I'm speaking with Shalmina Babai Abji. Shalmina, I'm really excited to chat with you. Thanks so much for joining me today. Thank you for having me. But in your case, the work that you do in your backstory and your book are all deeply intertwined. And your story is just incredibly inspirational.

And I would be remiss to not give you the chance to go over that yourself. So I'd just like to start by asking you, what inspired you to write the book Show Your Worth? Well, thank you for asking that question, Tyler. So to provide some context, I have to go back a little bit. I grew up very humble beginnings in Tanzania, and I was motivated to lift my family and myself out of poverty. So as a young girl growing up in Tanzania, I firmly believed that if I had a college education, that I would make enough money so we would never have to be poor again. And so that journey, Tyler, led me to be on this mission to obtain a college degree. However, the town in which I grew up did not have education past 10th grade.

My family did not have any disposable income, and families like us would not qualify for a bank loan. And no one in my family had been to college. However, I was determined that that's what I wanted to do. And so with the help of my mom, my family, we overcame many challenges. My first degree is from India, and I picked India because it was the least expensive way for me to obtain a college degree. I got a degree in mathematics. I came back, and I realized after the fact that I was not going to make as much money as I needed to to lift my family and myself out of poverty.

And that brought me to the United States. The universe somehow had this magazine show up. And in that magazine in 1981, there were two articles that got me started. The first one was IBM had just announced its PC Junior. Computing was in its infancy. in its infancy. And the second article was that if you're good at math, you could learn how to program computers. And people that know how to program computers make a lot of money. And so that's what brought me here, Tyler. I came to a university in Wisconsin, La Crosse, not even knowing what winter is. Remember, this is before the days of the internet. And I got a degree in computer science when I was about getting ready to graduate. I was on a student visa, which meant I could have one year practical training experience in the US. And I was very fortunate because one company, a technology startup company, took a chance on me and they interviewed me and accepted me and gave me a job. Tyler,

the $27,000 that they offered me for my annual salary was more money than my parents could make in 10 years. And I thought, that's it. We're never going to be poor again. With a spring in my step, wanting to pour my heart and soul into my work, I showed up to work every single day. But very quickly, I realized, Tyler, that there was no other woman of color in a company of 2,000 engineers. I was the only person that looked like me. I was the only person that spoke like me. And, you know, by now I've been in the U.S. for over two years. I know what Ivy League colleges are. And I started looking around. There were people from MIT, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, master's degrees, Carnegie Mellon, PhDs. And I started looking around and I thought to myself, oh, my God, what would I know that

they don't already know? They're all smarter than I am. They have been to higher ranked universities. They have more advanced degrees. They speak English better than I do. They dress up better than I do. They dress up better than I do. And immediately I started undermining my own capabilities, my own ideas. I convinced myself that my ideas will not matter because they know everything that I

would know and then some. But I was between a rock and a hard place. But I was between a rock difficult to replace by creating unique value so they couldn't go hire someone at the end of my one-year visa to do my job. Because by law, they were required to hire someone with the right visa status. So here's Shalmina starting her career, thinking her ideas don't matter, and that instills this fear of speaking up. Because I was afraid that if I speak up, I sound stupid. I'll state what's obvious. They might figure out that they made a mistake in hiring me. But if I didn't speak up and contribute

unique value towards the success of my organization, my dream of lifting myself and my family out of poverty would be very short-lived. So I started there. That company shut down in three and a half years. However, they saw enough value in me that they extended my visa. and by the time that company shut down, I already had a green card. And that's when I joined IBM. A lot of people have helped me along the way. And every time someone would help me, I would look back and think, how can I help them? But I was not in a position to help them. help them, but I was not in a position to help them. I became one of the highest ranking women of color at IBM, running billion-dollar businesses, leading global teams, and I had this deep desire

to honor the people that had helped me, including my mom. So my book is actually dedicated to my mom, including my mom, who worked tirelessly to raise us and who had the confidence to allow her 15-year-old child to leave home, even though we didn't own a phone. And so that desire to pay back was the reason I left my corporate career at the peak of my career to help others become successful. That way, I was honoring the people that helped me become successful. So initially, Tyler, I mentored hundreds of women.

I spoke at different places. I started sharing what it is that I knew that would make others successful. is that I knew that would make others successful. And that transformed the career trajectory of hundreds of women. And that emboldened me. At the time, I was on the board of a United Nations Foundation organization called GRELA, and this is about gender justice. And so I was very aware of the disparity in the leadership. Both gender and racial equality is lacking. And it's something I felt that I could change. I could become a change agent because now I know that I have insights. If they can help hundreds of women, they can help thousands and millions of women. So that's what inspired me to write this book. Your level of persistence and resilience throughout this whole story, it's just remarkable. It's inspirational, as I said before. So thank you so much for retelling your story. Just overcoming the odds to reach university and at that phase, even studying in the winter,

something that I can actually relate to there. It's hard to study when it's that cold and need to focus on your academics when the snow is beating down. So again, just thank you. Thank you for this description. I want to key in on one thing that you mentioned here, which is that you felt like you had to provide unique value. You decided that you can't just do what everybody else is doing and that you needed to find something unique to give to your company. Sadly, I feel it's true as if most people don't feel that way. I don't think you'd be surprised to hear that. But most people, they understand they have to provide value or give value, but they don't go as far as to say unique value. And I'm sure in a

place with lots of software engineers, that's probably true where most people were there because they're making solid money, regardless of the uniqueness or impact of their contribution. So I'm sure you saw a lot of people who are more or less kind of coasting along the American dream, sort of like you were seeking, but without thinking that it was much of a challenge to them because there were so many versions of themselves, a lot of, you know, similar looking people. But I'm just curious, can you elaborate on your thought process behind that? How do you determine what that unique value would become and how did you pursue it? Because that honestly almost sounds like a job on top of the job in a way. Is that true to an extent? Well, you know, it's actually not. If we lean into our authenticity, it's not. Because you see,

what creates unique value, Tyler, is diversity of thought. When you lean in into who you are, your life's journey, the way you think is different from everyone else, which translates into the way you solve problems is different from everyone else. But what happens is when we look different, we try to fit in, which is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. We try to fit in and we try to do things the way others are doing. But if you allow your natural, authentic self, if you permit your natural, authentic self to think the way you would instead of thinking the way others want you to think, and you bring that thought into solving problems, because that is what is going to create a unique value.

The way you think your life journey, that's what brings a thought process into the equation which the company wouldn't have if it wasn't for you. However, having said that, it's easier said than done because here's what happens, right? And this is what happened to me. When you don't see anyone that looks like you, not just in leadership roles, but anywhere in my case, a lot of women, when they don't see leaders that look like them, they start thinking, oh, we don't belong there because there's no one who looks like us. And so in order for us to succeed, we have to talk like them and we have to be like them and we have to act like us. And so in order for us to succeed, we have to talk like them and we have to be like

them and we have to act like them. And that actually short changes you and prevents you from creating unique value because you don't need to be like them. You need to bring your unique self to work. And you know what is going on right now, Tyler, now that my book is out for a year and a half, women that get energized to show their worth. And one of the ways you show your worth is by intentionally creating unique value. When women get energized to show their worth at work, they are bringing their authentic self to work. They are speaking up when they were afraid to speak up. This is translating into better, more competitive, more innovative solutions from that organization and it is impacting and improving their business results.

So this is a win-win-win for all of us because women are now energized. We go in, the morale is high. We are seeking to contribute unique value. Our voices are being heard. The organizations are recognizing that when we speak up and we lean into our authenticity, we are bringing forth ideas that were never there before.

And for me to go back, it was a learning process. I had to overcome this fear of speaking up, which is not today's agenda. But I have done a TEDx talk on how I overcame the fear of speaking up because overcoming that fear of speaking up is the entry point. If you're afraid to speak up and share your authentic ideas at work, you are not going to be able to show your worth and you are not going to be able to climb the leadership ladder. What you're ultimately describing here is a bottom-up approach of fixing organizations in many cases, because I would argue that the fact that so many of these

organizations that are creating, in some cases, world-changing products, especially in the tech sector and that sort of thing, those organizations are overwhelmingly run by men and made up of men. And historically, we've seen some issues develop from that sort of thing. I want to address that word intentional that you keep bringing up, because that is in the subtitle of your book. It's in every chapter of the book and intentionally pursuing unique value and intentionally establishing work-life balance, those sorts of things. But at the same time, I do want to address the elephant in the room that it should be that the organizations that we are talking about as well from the top down also intentionally address these sorts of issues to supporting women, empowering women,

and giving them a potential place in leadership roles so that they can continue to empower women below them as well. Would you agree with that statement? I agree. When it happens from both sides, the acceleration of success is incredible. So let's address one at a time. Intentionally for the women, the way they show up to work. So I am very clear, and the subtitle you noticed is eight intentional strategies. Here's the thing, Tyler, no organization succeeds without a strategy. No human being realizes their maximum potential without a strategy. So the first thing we must do

is we must be strategic. We must become very strategic and then intentionally execute upon those strategies. And the eight strategies that I lay out, as you talked about, is intentional value creation, intentional work-life balance, intentional growth, intentional branding. When we have these strategies driving us day in and day out, when we intentionally show up to work, to execute upon those strategies, to show our worth, we fast track into leadership roles. And an organization knows this better than anyone else because every organization has a strategy. Every organization has a strategy.

And one of their strategies should be to intentionally recruit, grow, and promote diverse leaders. Absolutely. I fully agree. The first of the intentionals, first chapter intentionally defining success so as i was saying earlier i think a lot of people show up to work and they're pretty passive unfortunately i think we're seeing pretty good evidence of this in a lot of data that's coming through and just things that come up like quiet quitting and you know things that you see in the linkedin news headlines and whatnot there's a lot of passivity at work and even some insecurity perhaps about the status of things because of layoffs and all that's going on in industry right now. But intentionally defining success, you give some really fascinating stories in this first chapter and you describe the goals that you have

to set for yourself. Of course, there are the standard goals of growth within your company at your role. But you mentioned, for instance, you know, buying your first home as a critical objective. But even beyond that, you described that you wanted your daughter to have a swing in the yard so that she could play and enjoy herself. And that to me was just like, that was a degree farther than how I had ever thought about my own goals. It's imaginative and it's emotional. And I just want to ask you, how important are those things, imagination and emotion and tying those in when sort of defining your success, as you put it? Extremely important. You see, Tyler, we are never just about our careers. As women, we are mothers, we are daughters, we are sisters, we are friends, we are caregivers, we are volunteers. And each one of these roles brings meaning to our life. And we bring that energy to work and how we feel at work. We bring that energy to wherever we go outside of our work. And so when I got excited about buying a home in which my daughter could

grow up and having a swing, that actually got me to move into sales because that made me want to make more money. And really, it was in sales where I saw my genius, where I found excellence, where I accelerated my success. And it started from a personal definition of success, which was buying a home. And so when we define our success just about our profession, we are shortchanging ourselves. When we define our success just about our personal life, we're shortchanging ourselves. When we define our success just about our personal life, we're shortchanging our success. But when we define our success holistically as to what matters most to us, personally and professionally, they will feed each other and it creates an upward spiral for both. You cite Susan Whitney as one of your earliest

mentors. I believe that was at IBM. She was paramount to your realizing that you needed to set goals in the first place. I think there was a quick conversation where you kind of knew who she was. She was a very high up leader. And you got to meet her because you had been given an opportunity for the early success that you had seen. And you met her and she kind of just asked you, what are your goals in five or 10 years? And you kind of thought to yourself, oh man, I'm not quite sure at this point. And then she set you on that path

to really realizing that. And I'm just curious, you've also held, as you already mentioned, massive leadership positions. I think you're basically in charge of like a billion dollars worth of sales at one point. So you've probably led other women in that sort of thing at IBM too. And I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on how leaders can have that same impact,

especially on aspiring women, and to teach them how to systematically set impactful and beneficial goals. Is it through deliberate mentorship systems, things like employee resource groups, which can be focused on, you know, improving diversity and that sort of thing. Just simple individual leaders tactics like prioritizing celebration and recognition of small successes. Do you have any advice for that? Yeah. In my chapter of intentional relationships, I quote Alex Haley, the famous author who wrote Roots. And he says, when you see a turtle on a ledge, you know it had helped getting there. That's my story. And Susan Whitney started that story. Well, my mom started that story,

actually. But in my career, I've had a lot of people that have mentored me, that have guided me, that have coached me. And, you know, it can be one conversation, Tyler, like it was with Susan Whitney. It was a two-minute conversation that changed my career trajectory. And for the listeners who don't know or haven't read my book, I received an award, a highly coveted award. And so I was invited to a women's roundtable that was hosted by our general manager from Chicago. I was in Minneapolis and her name is Susan Whitney. And so I, even in that round table, Tyler, I was the only woman of color. And I sat in awe. I was watching Susan, her intelligence, her grace, her diamond earrings, her purple dress. It's like I

was watching everything, right? The way she sat, the way she walked, the way she carried herself. And my boss's boss had asked me to walk her back. And on the way, she first congratulated me. And I thought, oh my God, she knows about my award. She knows about me. That made me feel good. So this is something leaders should notice, that the words that you say when you have a chance to speak with your employees can either build them up or not. So use every opportunity to recognize potential in people, to ask questions that will get them to think. And that's exactly what Susan did, because up until then, I was settling for small successes.

And remember, a lot of women, we are wired. We settle for small successes. And there is this thing about, oh, I'm so grateful. Oh, I'm so content. But you know what? We can be grateful, content, and ambitious. So back to Susan. And Susan says, congratulations, Shalmina, on winning such a prestigious award. And I couldn't even get a thank you out of me because I was stammering. And she says, where do you want to be in five years? And, you know, the thing with me, Tyler, that has really served me is what you see is what you get. I'm a straight shooter. I'm going to tell you exactly

what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling. I don't mince words. And so I looked at her and I said, I don't know. I've actually never thought about it. I get so busy doing the best possible job that I can in my current role that I don't think about where I want to be in five years. And what she told me, now, everyone, please listen to this. She said, Shalmina, it is critical that you do the best possible job in your current role. that you do the best possible job in your current role. And it is equally critical to think about what you want to do next and next. That way, you're always working towards something bigger. You see, our career is a long game. And we have to be strategic and intentional to set goals that are high. It is better to set goals that are so high that pushes you outside your comfort zone and makes you realize

what you can't do than it is to set goals that are so low and you will never even know what you're capable of. Before we get too deep, I want to ask you about the power quotient. So this is a critical tool that you refer to pretty much in every chapter. I think you formally introduce it in chapter three or four, maybe. Would you mind defining the power quotient so we can talk about that briefly? Yeah, I introduce it in chapter three, intentional value creation. So, you know, Tyler, earlier we talked about the fact that I was afraid to speak up. And when I learned how to speak up is when I coined this term called power quotient. And basically what it was is because I was afraid to speak up, there was this voice of

fear in my own head saying all the things and giving me all the reasons why I shouldn't speak up, there was this voice of fear in my own head saying all the things and giving me all the reasons why I shouldn't speak up. Don't speak of Shalmina. They're going to realize you're stupid. Your ideas don't matter. They might even fire you. And it was an overtribe because I had convinced myself that my ideas don't matter. So it was really energized to stop me from speaking up. And then one day, one gentleman sitting right across from me said exactly what I was thinking, because we were trying to solve a problem with our software release. And I had that idea, but my voice of fear stopped me from speaking up. And this gentleman stated exactly what I was thinking. And as soon as he did that, he started getting pats on his up. And this gentleman stated exactly what I was thinking. And as soon

as he did that, he started getting pats on his shoulder. And then because our bosses were in the same meeting, I heard someone say, what a unique way of solving this problem. And I thought to myself, oh my God, Shalmina, I've been looking for ways to contribute unique value. How did that idea? I should have spoken up. My ideas do matter. So that first victory in my own head that went from my ideas don't matter to my ideas do matter, that had to happen first. And so I want women to first and foremost, and all your listeners, men, women, everyone, to know that your ideas matter.

In fact, the more unique your ideas, the better. And so don't convince yourself that your ideas don't In fact, the more unique your ideas, the better. And so don't convince yourself that your ideas don't matter and not speak up. However, because I had conditioned myself not to speak up, the next time I had an idea, that voice of fear on fire again, telling me not to speak up. But this time, there was this tiny voice of courage, and it was fueled by that shift in my own mindset from my ideas matter to my ideas matter. And that voice of courage also chimed in. Shalmina, speak up. You have ideas that matter. You will create unique value. And if you create unique value, they will extend your visa, and you will never have to be poor again. And that hit it. And I thought, okay, fear, I get you.

You're trying to protect me, but this time I must speak up because the rewards of speaking up far outweigh the risk. And so I spoke up. That's the day I realized, Tyler, that these are voices in my head and I'm not those voices. I can actually hear those voices and I can decide which voice wins by feeding that voice. And that's when I coined this term power quotient. Your power quotient is your ability to scan your mental chatter because there is all kinds of voices in our head. You can scan it and you can intentionally pick an empowering response, especially when the stimulus is disempowering. You see, when things are going well, you will show up empowered. You will behave empowered. You will respond

empowered. But when the stimulus is disempowering, whether it is an internal stimulus like fear or an external stimulus like someone undermining you or interrupting you while you're stating your ideas or saying things that could potentially belittle you, microaggressions, negative stereotypes, they all exist. Here's the thing. When you learn to pick an empowering response to your internal disempowering stimulus like fear, the external stimuluses do not stand a chance. So this is up to us. Our power lies in our ability to pick our responses, to make them empowering responses in the face of disempowering stimuli. At the same time, though, you did mention earlier that it's critical for organizations to embrace diversity of thought. And that simply results in,

you know, more innovation, more creative solutions, and theoretically more success as a business. So I would say it is important for organizations to facilitate this sort of thing, to facilitate bravery in speaking out and speaking up and even calling people out. And I think that's kind of the point of psychological safety, which has become a bit of a buzzword these days. And it's used very frequently in L&D circles and HR circles. But I do think it's important to address that as well. And I'm wondering if you have any words to say from that organizational perspective, what should we do as leaders or as high up as executives in a company? I love that question. So here's the thing. Leaders should not look at advancing women as a corporate social responsibility or whatever,

or a checkbox. Leaders need to recognize that women have diverse thoughts, which when they are encouraged to share their ideas and their thoughts, it will improve the competitiveness, the innovation, and their business performance. So they're not doing this as a favor to the woman. They're doing it because it is the right thing to do. So if there is a woman sitting in a meeting and hasn't figured out her power quotient yet and hasn't learned how to speak up because she's afraid, reach out gently. Encourage everyone to speak and state their diverse ideas. And then when a woman is speaking up and if someone interrupts her and she backs off, make sure that no one interrupts her. Make sure that you allow and encourage this environment

of sharing our unique thoughts and our diverse ideas. So when someone interrupts, you can stop them from interrupting. And I actually give an example in my book, Tyler, because there were people that interrupted me. Now, listen, I'm not saying that people show up to work to put women down. No, everyone comes in to create value for their organization. But sometimes they've never heard a woman like me speak up. Or maybe I am pausing a little bit to gather my thoughts to speak up and they will speak over me. And if I allow them to do that, or if I allow

myself to feel badly that they interrupted me, the next time I might not speak up. So I say, let us own it. Okay. And let us not allow someone to interrupt us. And when they interrupt us, we can gently or sometimes more forcefully ask them, let me finish. And here's the thing. When you know that your idea is going to be creating unique value for your organization, that will give you the courage and the confidence to stop people from interrupting you. However, the leaders can also facilitate, make sure that every voice is heard. On the other side of the coin, instead of speaking up and speaking out, you can also withdraw in some cases and you can pull back. And what I'm getting at is the power of no. I can't remember exactly which chapter this is, and I apologize. You'll

have to forgive me. But either work-life balance or allocating your attention, you tell a few stories about saying no so that you can maintain giving maximum value and that sort of thing. So can you just explain the power of no and the importance of saying no sometimes? Yeah, it's in both those chapters. You have a great memory, by the way. Yes, it's in both those chapters. You have a great memory, by the way. Yes, it's better than I thought. I initially learned about the power of saying no at work. And then when I became unexpectedly a single mom when my kids were two and four, I had to also learn how to say no in my personal life. So the point here is in order for us to show our worth, in order for us to create maximum value towards the success

of our organization, we must structure our days around our highest priorities, the priorities that will create maximum value towards the success of our organization, which also translates towards your success. They go hand in hand. And what that requires you to do, and this is very difficult for a lot of women. It was difficult for me too, because most of us women, we want to be liked by people. And we think that by saying yes to everything, people will like us. And my boss, and this is again, going back to leaders, enlightened leaders that take a special interest in realizing the maximum potential of all their employees. Because here's the thing, Tyler, the higher up you rise, in fact, even at the first level, your success is completely dependent upon the success of your people. And so you must intentionally and strategically make sure that you are being an advocate for your people to realize their maximum potential.

And so my boss at the time, Keith Elzia, said to me, you know, Shalmina, IBM did not hire you to win a popularity contest. We hired you to give business outcomes. And you shouldn't get focused on being liked. Get focused on being respected. And that changed the way I approached work. So in order for us to say no to our lesser priorities, we must first understand what the higher priorities are, what value are they contributing towards the success of our organization, and then we must learn to say no by articulating where we are focusing our attention. And so how to say no?

Kind and firm. Be kind to the person you're saying no to. Firm on the decision. But don't alienate people. This is why I take them step by step in the book. How to say no. Because when you say no the right way, you will create a brand, first of all, that don't bring lesser priorities to Shalmina.

She's going to say no. So people will stop coming to you with lesser priorities, but you also earn their respect and you deepen your relationships. So a lot of people think that by saying no, you will not be liked. It actually earns your respect because you explain to them. So it's not a confrontational no, it's not a combative no, it is a very well thought out no based on the success of your organization. And so when you start structuring your days around your highest priorities, that requires you to say no. And that's why saying no is so important. And the higher up you rise, the more things vie for your attention. Task forces, people, projects. And the more no you have to say.

And the sooner you learn, the better. You're also talking about deepening relationships here and developing deep and meaningful relationships with those around you. Skipping ahead a little bit in the book to I think one of the later chapters, but one thing that stuck out to me in this chapter about relationships is how you describe an optimal relationship with one's boss. And I believe you do describe that you should maintain a professional relationship with your boss, which of course, I mean, I think that makes perfect sense. I know you're not advocating for like a black and white sort of relationship where you're either, you know, you work for that person or you're a friend. I don't think it's as simple as just two

options. There are two distinct options. I think there's sort of a spectrum of relationship that exists with your leader and your direct report. But I do want to dig into this a little bit and hear a more elaborate definition from you, because I think there's a lot of thought leaders and a lot of authors out there who are advocating for much friendlier organizations, you know, organizations that really do base themselves on deeper connections and learning a lot about each other, especially your direct reports and your boss, learning about each other's lives and becoming friendlier. Because I think, unfortunately, with decentralized work and working from home, people feel lonely. You know, I feel lonely. I work from home sometimes. And it's nice to have friends that are the people that you engage with

every single day, even if that's your boss. So I know you're not saying that, you know, don't be friends with your boss. But I would just like, if you don't mind, to give sort of a statement on more clearly what you mean. Yeah. You know what? I'm glad we are clarifying this. I guess this depends on how you define friendship. Getting to know each other, getting to understand each other's values, getting to understand each other's lives, what's important to you,

what's not, your children. All that is important and is also professional as far as I'm concerned. It's a good friendship to have. What I want women to know, and I'm going to be blunt here, your boss is not your therapist. When you think that friendship means that I can go and cry over my boss's shoulder. Now, listen, when you have a loss and you're grieving, you let them know, of course you do. When I became single with two children, my boss was one of the first people that I let know because it was going to impact my business performance and that I needed them to know

that I'm going to require a little more flexibility, etc. So that is a requirement. To me, that's not about being friendly. This is about letting them know what is going on in your life. But if I started going to work and telling my boss how difficult my life is and crying to them, then what happens is they start coddling you. They start protecting you. And then they won't give you more responsibilities because they might think that you're already having a difficult time doing whatever it is that you're doing today. It's different levels of friendliness.

And remember, at the end of the day, you work for your boss and your bosses will change. So you want to share. Again, be strategic, be intentional, share what you must. Know that your boss will not be your boss five years down the road. And is this something you want to share with them? And if yes, do it. You were a boss yourself. You were a leader, as I already mentioned, of I think about 150 salespeople. That was like the lower level. And then in between there were managers responsible for quite literally almost a billion dollars

of sales. And you talk about this at various points. But as far as I remember, you don't dive too deeply into what it was like leading those folks on a day to day basis. And I mean, I'm sure it was just incredibly difficult work. And I really just want to know, from a hierarchical standpoint, there's a couple layers there where the people that you're overseeing and responsible for, you know, you're probably not able to engage with every single one of those people as frequently as you would like to. And when there's so much on the line, you know, I think it was $970 million

or something like that. I just want to know, how did you lead? How did you maintain those relationships through the hierarchies in a way that ensured success, ensured happiness? Do you have any pieces of advice for people who have large teams that they oversee like that? First and foremost, I want to tell you one thing is my transition from being a subject matter expert to being a first-line sales leader was more difficult than being a first-line sales leader to the second-line sales leader. And that happens because you're too close to the content. And so I mentioned this in the book, right? You go on sales calls with your clients and your salespeople. And because you've been there, done that, you watch that movie, you want to jump in and you want to take over and

that's suicide. But I know I did it and I had to learn. So for me, going from an individual contributor to a first-line sales leader was the hardest thing to do. I was very, very, very fortunate that IBM invested a lot in the first line sales leader to really teach them how to lead effectively. And I also talk about my first class when I entered and the instructor has on the board treat people the way Dash and each one of us said the way you want to be treated. And he said, no, it's the way they want to be treated. So as a leader, the first thing you must understand

are your people. What motivates them? Because a person, Tyler, is like an iceberg. You only see the top one third, but it's really the bottom two third that separates the stars from the superstars. And so you must understand the motivation, the values, what inspires them. How can you build them up? How do you even compensate them? For some people, money is more important. For others, travel is more important. I mean, you must understand the people you're leading.

And that applies even at a second line sales leader. And so when you become a second or a third or a fourth, you are, as you aptly stated, further and further away from the people on the ground. However, you never, ever want to undermine the people that are reporting to you and go directly to the people that they report to. That is not acceptable. You must understand what your leaders need from you. You become a coach.

You become the person that removes their obstacles so they can succeed because your success is entirely dependent upon their success. So on the one hand, you motivate them by whether it's compensation or giving them flexibility or having a conversation, whatever. You have to figure out what it is that motivates them because you want to energize them. You want them to show up as their best selves each and every day. And when you treat them well, you make it easy for them to treat their teams well. And happy people produce happy results. And so you have to respect them. You have to appreciate them. No matter what level a person is, everyone wants to be respected. They want to be appreciated. They want to be treated with dignity. You have to take an interest in them. You have to

grow them. You have to pay them well. You treat them well. And it's this hierarchy when you energize and motivate and remove the obstacles of the people that are reporting to you. They will do the same for their people who will do the same for their people. So you are setting the stage for how they will be treating their people. With leadership comes a tremendous responsibility, which we cannot take lightly. When you are a leader, you have to show up in your full glory and you have to energize and motivate the people that report to you. So my final question, as we run up on time here, it's been I think about a year and a half since the book came out. You already mentioned at the top that you've heard some great stories of

women empowering each other and great organizational success through what they've learned in what you've written. But a lot has changed in that year and a half. We've had, as I already mentioned, things like mass layoffs, big technological changes with the new AI question. You know, general job insecurity seems to be still fluttering around. Do you have any new advice for women who may not look like the others in the room or who might feel out of place like you once did? Has anything new come up? Would you maybe write a ninth chapter and add that in there? You know, a new intentional piece of advice, anything you could think of? So here's the thing, Tyler. Today, it's AI. But I have been through so many cycles. We went from the centralized computing to

decentralized computing, client-server key. Then came the internet. Then came the cloud. Then comes AI. The change is constant. It is guaranteed. So no matter what is changing, two things to this. First and foremost, things will not always be the way you want them to be. People will not always be the way you want them to be. But you must always be the way you want to be. You must drive your agenda and you must decide that you're going to show up to work to show your worth every single day, no matter what the situation. OK.

to work, to show your worth every single day, no matter what the situation. OK, secondly, in my chapter of intentional growth, I ask women to move to sectors that are growing, to build the competencies that will be needed in the future and to go into areas that have opportunities for promotion. So today that area is AI and ML, tomorrow it will be something else. It doesn't matter. You keep building your competencies so you will be more marketable no matter where you go.

If your company decides to lay you off, by the way, we started this conversation. The company I was working for shut down and so all of us got laid off. And if I didn't get laid off, Tyler, I would still be working for that same company because they had done my visa and who knows what my career trajectory would have been. Them laying me off was a blessing in disguise. I joined IBM. So getting laid off doesn't take your skills away. So getting laid off doesn't take your skills away. If you focus on building your skills, building your brand, you will find a job because I'm telling you, there are very few people that go into work every single day to show their worth. Those people don't get laid off. And if they do, somebody will grab them with open arms.

I love that message. Okay, well, before I let you go, can you just let our listeners know where they can learn more about you and what work you're doing these days? Yes. So my entire purpose in life, Tyler, is to advance gender equality in leadership roles. And you can find me on shelmina.com. Read my book. I am teaching you how you can emerge as a leader. I want every listener to know that they have the capacity to lead. Leaders are not born. Leadership is learned. It's a skill. I learned it and so can they. And I'm teaching them. So opt into the leadership pipeline. Become a leader. Take others with you. Let's together create gender equality and racial equality in leadership roles. I'm on LinkedIn. My book is out there. Google me. You will learn so much and teach that to others. Share it freely.

All right. Once more, thank you so much for joining us, Shalmina. This was a wonderful conversation. I really enjoyed it. It has been my honor to be on this call, Tyler. You are such an incredible partner to have this podcast with. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. That means a lot. And for everybody listening at home, thank you for joining us. We will catch you on the next episode. Cheers. You've been listening to L&D in Action, a show from Get Abstract. Subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast player to make sure you never miss an episode. And don't forget to give us a rating, leave a comment, and share the episodes you love. Help us keep delivering the conversations that turn learning into action. Until next time.