Life Kit - Be Honest And Concrete: Tips For Talking To Kids About Death

Episode Date: May 28, 2020

Whether it's a family pet or a loved one, every child will experience a death at some point — and their parents will likely struggle to explain it. This episode, we revisit the Mr. Hooper episode of Sesame Street, which provides a master class in talking about death and grief with young children.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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If you've got a good tip, leave us a voicemail at 202-216-9823 or email us at lifekit at npr.org. Hey, Corey. How's it going, Anya? I'm doing all right. You know, we had a death in the family recently. Yeah, I heard. I'm really sorry about that. It was your husband's aunt? That's right, Aunt Nancy. And, you know, Adam and I have been together for a while, so I was really lucky to have her in my family for 20 years. And she was really a special person, Corey. She was a teacher, an editor, a writer, and above all, a dancer. And one thing I'm really grateful for is that in the last couple of years since she was diagnosed with cancer, she made a really big effort to connect with my girls. Oh, I'm so glad for that. Not only for you and for Aunt Nancy, but for your girls. Yeah. I'm curious, Anya, given everything else that's been going on lately, how were you able to handle the end? Were you able to be with her, to celebrate her? What was that like? Well, it's hard, Corey. you know, and so many families are going through a version of this. But when Aunt Nancy went on hospice care, we had a goodbye visit

over Zoom. And then, you know, a couple of weeks later, we also had a version of the funeral service over Zoom. The rabbi came to my mother-in-law's backyard and she was socially distanced. And then the rest of us were just kind of on the computer screen. So yeah, that's how it was. That's how it is right now. That's how it is right now. And I'm sure, Anya, there's so many families who are going through this right now. I mean, that's why we've decided to revisit what is honestly for me, and I'm pretty sure the same is true for you, one of the most meaningful Life Kit episodes we've decided to revisit what is honestly for me, and I'm pretty sure the same is true for you, one of the most meaningful Life Kit episodes we've ever worked on. That's right. And this one is how to talk to kids about death.

Where is he? I want to give it to him. That's Big Bird from Sesame Street in one of the show's most famous episodes. It's the one where Mr. Hooper, who ran the soda fountain, he's just died. And Big Bird wants to give him a present. It's a portrait he's drawn. Where is he? Big Bird, don't you remember we told you? Mr. Hooper died. He's dead. Oh, yeah. I remember.

Well, I'll give it to him when he comes back. And what follows is a master class in how you talk with kids about death. You're listening to Life Kit. I'm Corey Turner, an education reporter with NPR and the father of two boys. And I'm Anya Kamenetz, an education reporter with NPR and the father of two boys. And I'm Anya Kamenetz, an education reporter with NPR and the mother of two girls. And we've got six strategies for talking with kids about death, including what apples can tell us about how kids make sense of tough news. We'll have that when we come back.

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In this guide, we're tackling tough questions that we face as parents, caregivers, and teachers. Luckily, we'll be getting a lot of help from our partner, Sesame Workshop. Because every word that comes out of a Muppet's mouth on Sesame Street all has to go by Sesame's in-house child development experts. We're going to meet one of them in just a few minutes. But first, Anya, this episode's difficult conversation. How do you talk with kids, especially young kids, about death? And to help us out, we called on Rosemary Trulio, a developmental psychologist and senior vice president of education and research at Sesame Workshop.

Rosemary. Yes. Hi, I'm back. We missed you. I missed you, too. and Senior Vice President of Education and Research at Sesame Workshop. Rosemarie! Yes, hi, I'm back. We missed you. I missed you too. Rosemarie's been with Sesame for a long time, and she says the death of Will Lee, the actor who played Mr. Hooper, presented a real dilemma for the show's writers. They gave a lot of decision to this. So the actor dies in real life, and you have choices when you have a television show.

Do you replace the actor dies in real life and you have choices when you have a television show. Do you replace the actor? Do you just write the actor off? And as we do on Sesame Street, we're always putting the needs of kids first. So from an educational point of view, what is the right thing to do for children? And in the case of Mr. Hooper, the right thing was to be completely, painfully honest. Big Bird, Mr. Hooper's not coming back. Why not? Big Bird, when people die, they don't come back. Ever? No, never.

Why not? Well, Big Bird, they're dead. They can't come back. This brings us to the first of our big takeaways. Be honest and concrete when talking with kids about the what of death. What happens and what it means. That's right, because young kids often have trouble understanding the permanence of death. And Rosemarie says we grown-ups are often part of the problem.

Death is a part of our lives. And what happens is that as adults, we find talking about death difficult. And when we're trying to talk to our children about death, we don't necessarily always have the words. And so, Rosemary says, we often use euphemisms instead, which can be really confusing for kids and even scary. Think. Passed away. You know, we're sorry for your loss.

Went on a long, long journey. We put the dog to sleep. We put the dog to sleep. That's a really big one. And the reason for that is that, well, then if you're telling me now that the dog went to sleep and is not going to wake up and died, well, I go to sleep every night. Am I going to die? You go to sleep every night, Mommy and Daddy. Are you going to die?

So it's really important to use the word died. You know, Corey, I feel like we often trip up in our rush to want to reassure kids. Totally. I remember when my older daughter was three, she said, I know, Mommy, you said everybody dies, but me and you and the cat won't die, right? And I so wanted to tell her, no, nobody, none of you, no one you love is going to die. But, you know, I had to tell her the truth, and I was so glad that I did because a few years later, our cat did pass away, did die. Did you hear that, Anya? It's so hard, Corey.

You said best to it. I know. We're so used to doing that? It's so hard, Corey. You said best away. I know. We're so used to doing that. It's really hard. It's totally true. The euphemism's everywhere, which is one reason Rosemary says don't just use the word died, but also be clear with kids, like, this is what it means. You know, when you die, your heart stops, your body stops working, you don't eat, you don't breathe. To give more

concrete information about what is the meaning of death. This is all true for when we're talking about the what of death. But, you know, the advice is a little different when kids are asking the why questions. And this brings us to takeaway number two, which is sometimes it can be better not to tell kids too much, especially not all at once. Yeah. So let's pick up where we left off with Big Bird. Well, I don't understand.

You know, everything was just fine. Why does it have to be this way? Give me one good reason. One good reason. And it is at this point that a grown-up on the show, a man named Gordon, stands up, he walks over, and he says something that just hit me. It's so simple, Corey. Big Bird, it has to be this way because.

Just because? Just because. Just because. Just because. That's it. Yeah, that's it. So Rosemary says they picked that answer for a few reasons. So first of all, they wanted to leave room for families to talk about the meaning of death according to their own faith traditions, their own beliefs. And, you know, and we as parents should always feel free to kind of – we all will fill that in however it makes sense to us.

Right. Which isn't easy. Right. But Rosemary says there's another reason they did it this way. And it's that sometimes it's better not to give kids too much information, at least all at once. Right. So kids, you know, they get overwhelmed really easily. So do adults.

And in this moment, Gordon can see that Big Bird's already taken in a lot. So he holds back. Yeah. Rosemary says she got advice on this once from a hospice social worker who specialized in talking with kids about death. And she used the analogy of eating an apple. When we eat an apple, we eat an apple. We eat the whole apple. When a child eats an apple, they take a bite, maybe two bites.

They put it down. Put it down. Leave it on the couch. Leave it on the couch. Kick it on the floor. Kick it on the floor. Pick it back up. Take two more bites.

Exactly. And this goes on. Now, we would look at that apple and say, gross. Like, I ain't eating this apple. But for them, it's like, I'm still eating the apple. That's probably how they're going to experience death as well. They're going to take a couple of bites. They're going to go on with their life.

And then they're going to come back and they're going to take a couple more bites. Okay, but Rosemary, are you that person, that parent who slices up the apple and gives them a few slices at a time? I'm so serious. Yes. Or do you hand them the whole piece of fruit? But even a slice. They're probably not going to eat the whole slice in one sitting. So kids, they process something big like death in bits and pieces over time.

They'll keep coming back to it. They might even ask the same questions over and over like Big Bird does here. Well, he's going to come back. Who's going to take care of the store? And who's going to make my bird seed milkshakes and tell me stories? So Big Bird's reaction here, I mean, you can hear in his voice, right? He's not just asking about Mr. Hooper. He wants to know, what about my whole world?

This really big thing changed. Is everything else going to change too? Who's going to take care of me? His fear comes from feeling alone and vulnerable. It's very personal. And that's why takeaway number three is key. When a child is mourning the loss of a loved one. They need to know that there are many people in their lives. There are grandparents, there are aunts, there are uncles, there are some really, really good friends who are like family. So you will always be cared for. Big Bird, I'm going to take care of this store. Mr. Hooper, he left it to me.

And I'll make you your milkshakes and we'll all tell you stories and we'll make sure you're okay. Sure, we'll look after you. Oh. Hmm. All the adults were there to comfort Big Bird. By their sheer numbers, they kind of make you feel like you're part of a community,

you're part of our family. And what they do at the end is that they gather around him. They form a circle around him and they hug him and to let him know that you will be okay. And they explain the plans. Maybe the most powerful moment in the Mr. Hooper episode brings us to our fourth takeaway. Grownups, don't be afraid to show your emotions in front of kids.

Here's actor Bob McGrath taking his turn with Big Bird, and he's genuinely crying here. It won't be the same. You're right, Big Bird. It'll never be the same around You're right, Pinkbird. It's, it's, it'll never be the same around here without him. But you know something? We can all be very happy that we had a chance to be with him and to know him and to love him a lot when he was here. Yeah. It was a very emotional filming of that episode because keep in mind, I mean, everyone knew Will Lee very well.

They are going through a state of mourning. They miss him, the person, and of course their fellow actor on Sesame Street. And so those tears are real. And it was really important for us. Now, they're not made up. They were really real. But it's really important for kids to see adults express emotions. And Rosemary says there's a couple sides to this. So first of all, you know, you need to have self-care. And if you're mourning a loss, you need to make sure that you have that support and take care of yourself. At the same time, you don't want to wall your kids off from you, from seeing you express grief.

I think a lot of parents or other people worry that it's going to be upsetting for kids to see them that way. But she says, you know, don't isolate yourself. It's important for children to see us grieve. We're going to cry. And I think that you need to explain why you're crying. Because this isn't going to be just a one-time event, right? You're going to go through a mourning period. And there are going to be times after the funeral and burial, you're going to cry. And there are going to be things that are going to trigger memories, and you're going to cry, and they're going to see you cry. My mom's going to be dead, it'll be eight years in January. And just last week, I had a memory, and I cried in front of my son. and he says, you're crying. And I says, yes, I am. I miss grandma. And he said, I miss her too. And we hugged each other and then it was over. So

those crying moments are probably going to go on for a really long time. So in normal times, one place kids will be exposed to a lot of grown-up emotion, obviously, is the funeral or memorial service. Yes, of course. These are not normal times. And a lot of memorials are being postponed. Some of them are being held online. Yeah, but whatever you end up doing, takeaway number five, when it comes to funerals and memorials, whether they are in person or online, make sure you give kids a choice.

You should never say you have to do this or make them feel guilty if they choose not to participate. You need to give them that wiggle room. You can't force them, and I think that's really important. That also means tell them what to expect, whatever they choose. So if it's an open casket or a closed casket, explain what that's going to look like. Right. Give them the information to choose. And Anya, I'm so glad we had this chat with Rosemary when we did because, as you know, a few weeks after we recorded this, my wife's grandmother died.

Right. Our boys loved her. They called her Nana Betty. Right. If we choose to, we will have a chance to see her body because she has not yet been cremated. Some family members, including Papa Lloyd, felt it was important that people be able to say goodbye to her body. So her body's been fixed up and it'll be in a coffin, in a casket. It will look kind of like her, but not entirely because her spark you know, her spark and her spirit's not inside anymore. So she'll look different. Rowan, my six-year-old, asked if seeing his nunna's body might be kind of gross was his word. He didn't mean anything by it. He was genuinely curious.

And so Rachel jumps in again, doing what Rosemary basically suggests here. She's very clear. The month before this, we had euthanized our beloved family cat, Ruby, at home with our boys at her side, and so Rachel draws on that experience here. Do you remember how it looked with Ruby in that basket after the vet? She looked exactly the same. She looked the same to you? Yeah.

I could still pet Ruby and it felt so much the same. Yeah. Well, yeah, Ruby, after she died, her body was still warm for a while, and she was soft. All the same except she was dead. All the same except she was dead? except she was dead. All the same, except she was dead. Except she was dead. And it was this moment, honestly, Anya, I think, remembering what death was like for our cat Ruby,

that really helped Rowan make sense of what his Nana would look like in her casket. So he said yes. He wanted to go and see her. And so did his big brother, Eamon. Yes. I do want to see her body. Really? I've known her my whole life and I can't just be afraid to see her body just because she's dead. Just because of that change, I'm not going to be afraid to go see her body. I love that. I love the way he kind of talks himself into that confidence.

Yeah. And I was so impressed. The boys walked right up to their nun's casket and said goodbye. That's wonderful. So let's end with one more takeaway. And this will come in handy, you know, before and immediately after a loss as well as down the road. Rosemary calls it keeping the hope alive. So one activity is to take your child's hand and then trace the finger. So trace the hand and with each finger, just label it with something that you're looking forward to. So it could be going to school tomorrow to see my friends. It could be that it's springtime and you can't wait to take those training wheels off and ride your two-wheeler for the first time. It just gives your child an understanding that life is going to go on. We're going to be okay.

It's a tough time right now, but we have things to look forward to. So I love how they did this on Sesame Street in the Mr. Hooper episode, the very last scene, Big Bird sitting in his big nest. The picture of Mr. Hooper is up on the wall. Come in. Big Bird. Hi, Louise.

You want to see Mrs. Williams' baby? Oh, yes. Oh, hi, Mrs. Williams. Hi. Hi, Mr. Williams. And this is the new baby. Oh, isn't he cute? Oh, look at him. I love how excited Big Bird is in the scene to meet this new baby. His name is Leandro. Big Bird fawns over the baby for a few beats, and then he drops this last line, turning death's finality on its head. Gee, you know what the nice thing is about new babies?

What's that, Big Bird? What? Well, one day they're not here, and the next day, here they are. That's right. You know, Corey, this moment really got me because I realized in the course of reporting this episode that having kids changed

the way that I look at death. You know, when you're young, you're free to have, you know, mostly not think about death, I think. But then a kid arrives, they're so vulnerable, they got the whole world ahead of them. And even when you do experience profound grief and loss, you know that life goes on. And in some ways, it's because of raising children that I do have hope for the future. I think I'm kind of having to see how life comes full circle. Absolutely. It's completely changed how I think of it. All right. Well, it's that time.

Okay. Let's recap our six takeaways for the episode. One. It's really important to use the word dud. When talking about death with kids, be honest, be clear. The dog is not sleeping and grandpa did not go on a long journey. That's right. Number two, yes, be clear, but don't overload kids with information. Remember how Gordon responded to Big Bird. It has to be this way because. And always keep in mind the apple metaphor.

Kids are going to make sense of death one bite at a time. And number three, for many kids, the scariest thing about the death of a loved one is that it makes them feel isolated, alone, helpless. So grownups, we need to remind them. You will always be cared for. And get specific. Tell them the plan. Walk them through the people in their life who are still around to love and to care for them.

Number four. It's important for children to see us grieve. We're going to cry. Don't hide it. Feelings are not a sign of weakness. And one of the best things that you can do for the kids in your life is to show them how to process their big feelings in a healthy way. Absolutely.

And so that brings us to number five. This one's about the funerals, the ceremonies that often come with death. Should you bring the kids? The answer is, it's their decision. But make sure that they have the information that they need to make that choice. And finally, takeaway number six,

keep the hope alive. Help kids see that life is gonna go, no matter how painful the loss. And that's all for this episode of Life Kit. Special thanks to Kenneth J. Doka, Robin Goodman, Robin Gurwitch. And of course, Rosemary Trulio and all our friends at Sesame Workshop. And I'd like to send some special love and thanks across the divide to my amazing mother-in-law, Debra. It was her death that started this whole podcast journey. For more NPR Life Kit, check out our other episodes. There's one we did about teaching

your kids to love math, even if you didn't. It's perfect for these homeschooling times. You can find that episode and more at npr.org slash LifeKit. And if you love LifeKit and you want more, be sure to subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org slash LifeKit newsletter. Also, if you've got a good tip for us or a question, leave us a voicemail at 202-216-9823 or email us at lifekit at npr.org. This episode was produced by Chloe Weiner and Sylvie Douglas. Megan Cain is the managing producer. Beth Donovan is the senior editor.

Our digital editor is Beck Harlan, and our editorial assistant is Claire Schneider. I'm Corey Turner. And I'm Laini Kamenetz. Thanks for listening. The news has been hard to escape. So take a deep breath and join us for NPR's All Songs Considered.

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