Life Kit - Death: Talking With Kids About The End

Episode Date: April 29, 2019

Whether it's a goldfish or Grandma, every child will experience a death at some point — and their parents will likely struggle to explain it. Here's what to remember:- Be honest and concrete. The cat wasn't put to sleep, and Grandma didn't go on a long journey.- Don't overwhelm kids with too much information. They need time to process.- Make sure kids know they're still surrounded by people who will love and support them.- Don't be afraid to show emotion.- When it comes to deathbed visits or funerals, tell kids what they might see and give them a choice.- Keep the hope alive!Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

What's in store for the music, TV, and film industries for 2025? We don't know, but we're making some fun, bold predictions for the new year. Listen now to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from NPR. Hey, Corey. Hey, Anya. So, we both just recently lost our beloved family cats. Yeah, Ruby. And Boo, yeah, and at the age of 16, both of them. And I remember you

were telling me about a story that happened when you were a kid too, about losing a pet. Yeah, this was the first time death came to my family, for me anyway. And it was my dog, Mingo. He was a black cocker spaniel. He went to the vet's office. He'd been really sick. And he didn't come home that night. And I remember the next day, which just so happened to be my seventh birthday, we're at the dinner table celebrating. And I just keep asking my parents, where's Mingo? This doesn't make any sense. Where is Mingo? Oh, my God. They must have been so tortured about it. Yeah, they were in a total bind. You know, if I were in their situation, I don't know what I would have done. But they had tried to get through my birthday without telling me, but I forced the issue and they said, we put him to sleep. And it turns out, Anya, that that very same day, so this is my birthday, which also happened to be Thanksgiving, 1983, I wasn't the only one struggling to make sense of death.

Where is he? I want to give it to him. That's Big Bird from Sesame Street in one of the show's most famous episodes. And it turned out this episode, Anya, it aired on my seventh birthday. It's the one where Mr. Hooper, who ran the soda fountain, he's just died. And Big Bird wants to give him a present. It's a portrait he's drawn. Where is he? Big Bird, don't you remember we told you Mr. Hooper died? He's dead. Oh yeah, I remember. Well, I'll give it to him when he comes back.

And what follows is a master class in how you talk with kids about death. You're listening to Life Kit for Parents. I'm Corey Turner, an education reporter with NPR and the father of two boys. And I'm Anya Kamenetz, an education reporter with NPR and the mother of two girls. And we've got six strategies for talking with kids about death, And I'm Anya Kamenetz, an education reporter with NPR and the mother of two girls. And we've got six strategies for talking with kids about death, including what apples can tell us about how kids make sense of tough news. We'll have that when we come back. The Indicator is a podcast where daily economic news is about what matters to you.

Workers have been feeling the sting of inflation. So as a new administration promises action on the cost of living, taxes and home prices. This is NPR's Life Kit for Parents. In this guide, we're tackling tough questions that we face as parents, caregivers, and teachers. Luckily, we'll be getting a lot of help from our partner, Sesame Workshop. Because every word that comes out of a Muppet's mouth on Sesame Street all has to go by Sesame's in-house child development experts. We're going to meet one of them in just a few minutes. But first, Anya, this episode's a difficult conversation. How do you talk with kids, especially young kids, about death? And to help us out, we called on Rosemary Trulio,

a developmental psychologist and senior vice president of education and research at Sesame Workshop. Rosemary! Yes, hi, I'm back. We Sesame Workshop. Rosemarie. Yes. Hi. I'm back. We missed you. I missed you too. Rosemarie's been with Sesame for a long time. And she says the death of Will Lee, the actor who played Mr. Hooper, presented a real dilemma for the show's writers.

They gave a lot of decision to this. So the actor dies in real life and you have choices when you have a television show. Do you replace the actor? Do you just write the actor off? And as we do on Sesame Street, we're always putting the needs of kids first. So from an educational point of view, what is the right thing to do for children? And in the case of Mr. Hooper, the right thing was to be completely, painfully honest.

Big Bird, Mr. Hooper's not coming back. Why not? Big Bird, when people die, they don't come back. Ever? No, never. Why not? Well, Big Bird, they're dead. They can't come back.

This brings us to the first of our big takeaways. Be honest and concrete when talking with kids about the what of death. What happens and what it means. That's right, because young kids often have trouble understanding the permanence of death. And Rosemarie says, we grown-ups are often part of the problem. Death is a part of our lives. And what happens is that as adults, we find talking about death difficult. And when we're trying to talk to our children about death, we don't necessarily always have the words. And so, Rosemary says, we often use euphemisms instead, which can be really confusing for kids and even scary. Think.

Passed away. You know, we're sorry for your loss. Went on a long, long journey. We put the dog to sleep. We put the dog to sleep. That's a really big one. And the reason for that is that, well, then if you're telling me now that the dog went to sleep and is not going to wake up and die while I go to sleep every night. Am I going to die?

You go to sleep every night, Mommy and Daddy. Are you going to die? So it's really important to use the word died. You know, Corey, I feel like we often trip up in our rush to want to reassure kids. Totally. I remember when my older daughter was three, she said, I know, Mommy, you said everybody dies, but me and you and the cat won't die, right? And I so wanted to tell her, no, nobody, none of you, no one you love is going to die. But, you know, I had to tell her the truth. And I was so glad that I did because a few years later, our cat did pass away, did die.

Did you hear that, Anya? It's so hard, Corey. You said best to wait. I know. We're so used to doing that. It's really hard, Corey. You said best of it. I know. We're so used to doing that. It's really hard. It's totally true. The euphemism's everywhere, which is one reason Rosemary says don't just use the word died,

but also be clear with kids, like, this is what it means. You know, when you die, your heart stops, your body stops working, you don't eat, you don't breathe. To give more concrete information about what is the meaning of death. This is all true for when we're talking about the what of death. But, you know, the advice is a little different when kids are asking the why questions. And this brings us to takeaway number two, which is sometimes it can be better not to tell kids too much, especially not all at once.

Yeah. So let's pick up where we left off with Big Bird. I don't understand. You know, everything was just fine. Why does it have to be this way? Give me one good reason. One good reason. And it is at this point that a grown-up on the show, a man named Gordon, stands up, he walks over, and he says something that just hit me.

It's so simple, Corey. Big Bird. It has to be this way because. Just because? Just because. Just because. Just because. Just because. That's it.

Yeah, that's it. So Rosemary says they picked that answer for a few reasons. So first of all, they wanted to leave room for families to talk about the meaning of death according to their own faith traditions, their own beliefs. And, you know, and we as parents should always feel free to kind of – we all will fill that in however it makes sense to us. Right. Which isn to us. Right. Which isn't easy. Right. But Rosemary says there's another reason they did it this way.

And it's that sometimes it's better not to give kids too much information, at least all at once. Right. So kids, you know, they get overwhelmed really easily. So do adults. And in this moment, Gordon can see that Big Bird's already taken in a lot. So he holds back. Yeah. Rosemary says she got advice on this once from a hospice social worker who specialized in talking with kids about death.

And she used the analogy of eating an apple. When we eat an apple, we eat an apple. We eat the whole apple. When a child eats an apple, they take a bite, maybe two bites. They put it down. Put it down, leave it on the couch. Leave it on the couch. Kick it on the floor. Kick it on the floor.

Pick it back up, take two more bites. Exactly. And this goes on. Now, we would look at that apple and say, gross, like I ain't eating this apple. But for them, it's like, I'm still eating the apple. That's probably how they're going to experience death as well. They're going to take a couple of bites. They're going to go on with their life. And then they're going to come back and they're going to take a couple more bites. Okay, but Rosemary, are you that person, that parent who slices up the apple and gives them a few slices at a time?

I'm so serious. Yes. Or do you hand them the whole piece of fruit? But even a slice. They're probably not going to eat the whole slice in one sitting. So kids, they process something big like death in bits and pieces over time. They'll keep coming back to it. They might even ask the same questions over and over like Big Bird does here.

Well, he's going to come back. Who's going to take care of the store? And who's going to make my bird eat milkshakes and tell me stories? So Big Bird's reaction here, I mean, you can hear in his voice, right? He's not just asking about Mr. Hooper. He wants to know, what about my whole world? This really big thing changed. Is everything else going to change too?

Who's going to take care of me? His fear comes from feeling alone and vulnerable. It's very personal. And that's why takeaway number three is key. When a child is mourning the loss of a loved one. They need to know that there are many people in their lives. There are grandparents. There are aunts.

There are uncles. There are some really, really good friends who are like family. So you will always be cared for. Big Bird, I'm going to take care of the store. Mr. Hooper, he left it to me, and I'll make you your milkshakes, and we'll all tell your stories, and we'll make sure you're okay. Sure, we'll look after you. All the adults were there to comfort Big Bird. By their sheer numbers, they kind of make you feel like you're part of a community, you're part of our family.

And what they do at the end is that they gather around him. They form a circle around him, and they hug him, and to let him know that you will be okay. And they explain the plans. Maybe the most powerful moment in the Mr. Hooper episode brings us to our fourth takeaway. Grown-ups, don't be afraid to show your emotions in front of kids. Here's actor Bob McGrath taking his turn with Big Bird, and he's genuinely crying here. It won't be the same.

You're right, Big Bird. It's... it's... it'll never be the same around here without him but you know something we can all be very happy that we had a chance to be with him and to know him and to love him a lot when he was here. Yeah. It was a very emotional filming of that episode. Because keep in mind, I mean, everyone knew Will Lee very well. They are going through a state of mourning. They miss him, the person, and of course, their fellow actor on Sesame Street. And so those tears are real. And it was really important for us. Now, they're not made up. They weren't

really real. But it's really important for kids to see adults express emotions. And Rosemary says there's a couple sides to this. So first of all, you need to have self-care. And if you're mourning a loss, you need to make sure that you have that support and take care of yourself. At the same time, you don't want to wall your kids off from you, from seeing you express grief. I think a lot of parents or other people worry that it's going to be upsetting for kids to see them that way. But she says, don't isolate yourself. It's important for children to see us grieve. We're going to cry. And I think that you need to explain why you're crying. Because this isn't going to be just a one-time event, right? You're going to go through a mourning

period. And there are going to be times after the funeral and burial, you're going to cry. And there are going to be things that are going to trigger memories. And you're going to cry. And they're going to see you cry. My mom's going to be dead. It'll be eight years in January. And just last week, I had a memory. And I cried in front of my son.

And he says, you're crying. And I says, yes, I am. I miss grandma. And he said, I miss her too. And we hugged each other. And then it was over. So those crying moments are probably going to go on for a really long time. One place kids will be exposed to a lot of these crying moments and grown-up emotions

is at the funeral or memorial service, which is why the idea of bringing kids to these services makes a lot of us adults really uncomfortable. And this sets up takeaway number five. Right. When it comes to funerals, give kids the choice. You should never say you have to do this or make them feel guilty if they choose not to participate. You need to give them that wiggle room. You can't force them. And I think that's really important. That also means tell them what to expect, whatever they choose.

So if it's an open casket or a closed casket, explain what that's going to look like. Right. Give them the information to choose. And Anya, I'm so glad we had this chat with Rosemary when we did, because as you know, a few weeks after we recorded this, my wife's grandmother died. Our boys loved her. They called her Nana Betty. So we flew to Kansas for the funeral and we were driving to the hotel when my wife, Rachel, recorded herself explaining to our boys, Eamon and Rowan, who were nine and six at the time, that their nunner's casket would be open. If we choose to, we will have a chance to see her body because she has not yet been cremated.

Some family members, including Papa Lloyd, felt it was important that people be able to say goodbye to her body. So her body's been fixed up and it'll be in a coffin in a casket. It will look kind of like her, but not entirely because her, you know, her spark and her spirit's not inside anymore. So she'll look different. Rowan, my six-year-old, asked if seeing his nun as body might be kind of gross was his word. He didn't mean anything by it. He was genuinely curious. Sure.

And so Rachel jumps in again doing what Rosemarie basically suggests here. She's very clear. The month before this, we had euthanized our beloved family cat, Ruby, at home with our boys at her side. And so Rachel draws on that experience here. Do you remember how it looked with Ruby in that basket after the vet? She looked exactly the same. She looked the same to you? Yeah. I could still pet Ruby and it felt so much the same.

Yeah. Well, yeah, Ruby, after she died, her body was still warm for a while, and she was soft. All the same except she was dead. All the same except she was dead? Except she was dead. And it was this moment, honestly, Anya, I think remembering what death was like for our cat Ruby, that really helped Rowan make sense of what his Nana would look like in her casket.

So he said yes. He wanted to go and see her. And so did his big brother, Eamon. Yes. I do want to see her body. Really? I've known her my whole life, and I can't just be afraid to see her body just because she's dead.

Just because of that change, I'm not going to be afraid to go see her body. I love that. I love the way he kind of talks himself into that confidence. Yeah. And I was so impressed. The boys walked right up to their nun's casket and said goodbye. That's wonderful. So let's end with one more takeaway.

And this will come in handy, you know, before and immediately after a loss as well as down the road. Rosemary calls it keeping the hope alive. So one activity is to take your child's hand and then trace the finger. So trace the hand. And with each finger, just label it with something that you're looking forward to. So it could be going to school tomorrow to see my friends. It could be that it's springtime and you can't wait to take those training wheels off and ride your two-wheeler for the first time. It just gives your child an understanding that life is going to go on.

We're going to be okay. It's a tough time right now, but we have things to look forward to. So I love how they did this on Sesame Street in the Mr. Hooper episode. The very last scene, Big Bird sitting in his big nest. The picture of Mr. Hooper is up on the wall. Come in. Big Bird. Hi, Luis. You want to see Mrs. Williams' baby? Oh, yes. Oh, hi, Ms. Williams. Hi. Hi, Mr. Williams. And this is the new baby. Oh, isn't he cute? Oh, look at him. I love how excited Big Bird is in the scene to meet this new baby. His name is Leandro.

Big Bird fawns over the baby for a few beats, and then he drops this last line, turning death's finality on its head. Gee, you know what the nice thing is about new babies? What's that, Big Bird? What? Well, one day they're not here, and the next day, here they are. That's right. You know, Corey, this moment really got me because I realized in the course of reporting

this episode that having kids changed the way that I look at death. You know, when you're young, you're free to have, you know, mostly not think about death, I think. But then a kid arrives. They're so vulnerable. They've got the whole world ahead of them. And even when you do experience profound grief and loss, you know that life goes on. And in some ways, it's because of raising children that I do have hope for the future. I think I'm kind of having to see how life comes full circle.

Absolutely. It's completely changed how I think of it. All right. Well, it's that time. Okay. Let's recap our six takeaways for the episode. One. It's really important to use the word dot.

When talking about death with kids, be honest, be clear. The dog is not sleeping and grandpa did not go on a long journey. That's right. Number two, yes, be clear, but don't overload kids with information. Remember how Gordon responded to Big Bird. It has to be this way because... And always keep in mind the apple metaphor. Kids are going to make sense of death one bite at a time. And number three, for many kids,

the scariest thing about the death of a loved one is that it makes them feel isolated, alone, helpless. So grownups, we need to remind them. You will always be cared for. And get specific. Tell them the plan. Walk them through the people in their life who are still around to love and care for them. Number four, it's important for children to see us grieve. We're going to cry. Don't hide it. Feelings are not a sign of weakness. And one of the best things that you can do for the kids in your life

is to show them how to process their big feelings in a healthy way. Absolutely. And so that brings us to number five. This one's about the funerals, the ceremonies that often come with death. Should you bring the kids? The answer is it's their decision, but make sure that they have the information that they need to make that choice. And finally, takeaway number six, keep the hope alive. Help kids see that life is gonna go on no matter how painful the loss. And that's all for this episode of Life Kit.

Special thanks to Kenneth J. Doka, Robin Goodman, Robin Gurwitch. And of course, Rosemary Trulio and all our friends at Sesame Workshop. And I'd like to send some special love and thanks across the divide to my amazing mother-in-law, Deborah. It was her death two years ago that started this whole podcast journey with Sesame. For more NPR Life Kit, check out our other episodes in this guide. There's one about how to talk to your kids about Santa, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, and other magical creatures. Although, warning, do not listen to that episode with your kids in the room.

Yes, no, no, that's a headphone one. If you like what you heard, make sure to check out our other Life Kit guides at npr.org slash life kit. And while you're there, subscribe to our newsletter so you don't miss anything because we've got more guides coming every month on all sorts of topics. And as always, here's a completely random tip, this time from Morning Edition producer Taylor Haney. When you're cutting into warm brownies, you should use a plastic knife. A metal knife sticks to the brownie and makes crumbs and ruins your corners. But a plastic knife, I don't know why, it's non-stick. So you get perfect,

fudgy, smooth lines. If you've got a good tip or a parenting challenge you want us to explore, please let us know. We want to hear from you. Email us at lifekit at npr.org. I'm Corey Turner. And I'm Anya Kamenetz. Thanks for listening. Thank you.

Ever listen to the news and wonder, is there anything good happening out there? I'm Mindy Thomas from NPR's Wow in the World. And each week, Guy Raz and I take you and your kids on wild adventures to explore the most wow-worthy news stories on the planet. Find Wow in the World on Apple Podcasts.