Life Kit - Discussing 'The Talk'

Episode Date: June 11, 2020

It's Been A Minute host Sam Sanders talks with his colleague Kenya Young, executive producer of Morning Edition and mother of three boys about "the talk" — The series of conversations Black parents have with their kids, particularly their sons, about how to deal with police encounters.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from Wondery Kids and the number one kids science podcast, Wow in the World. Be wowed by fascinating companion audio stories that come exclusively with each Wow in the World stem toy. Shop the full collection today at Amazon.com slash Wondery Kids. Hey there, Sam Sanders here. I host It's Been a Minute from NPR. And like so many of you, I have been spending a lot of time recently talking about policing and race and the hurt a lot of us are feeling right now. Today, the folks here at Life Kit wanted to share a discussion I had on my show with my NPR colleague, Kenya Young. We discussed the talk. This is the talk that black parents give their children, particularly their sons, about how they should deal with the police if they encounter them.

It is often a hard talk, a sad talk, and the stakes with this talk are really high. Consider This is a daily news podcast, and lately, the news is about a big question. How much can one guy change? They want change. What will change look like for energy? Drill, baby, drill.

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but we're making some fun, bold predictions for the new year. Listen now to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from NPR. Kenya knows this talk all too well. She is my colleague and the executive producer of NPR's Morning Edition. Like, she runs the whole show. She is also the mother of three black boys. I have a 16 and a half year old, a 14 year old, and a four year old. How is the oldest 16? Because I remember... You remember him running around the building when he was four years old. Exactly. Isn't that crazy? It is crazy. It is. 16 years old. We actually took advantage of the pandemic with the empty parking lots and took some of our first driving lessons. You are brave and bold. Well, there wasn't no cars out there, so.

Yeah. So on top of just having to be a mom and do things like teach the oldest how to drive, you're also, as a black mother, a black mother of three black boys, having to talk to them about the news in a very specific way. What are you saying to them about George Floyd and his death and the police and these protests? Yeah, you know, it's

obviously not the first time. They are 16 and 14. And for some people, you know, this may be the first time they've had to have the conversation. It is not the first time for us. We've had to have what's known in the black culture as the talk many of times. You know, I'll never forget there was a time, our older house, we had a park right behind us and they wanted to go to the park. This was, I'll say, you know, I kind of put them in errors. This was right around the time of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling. And I was, it was really raw with me. My third son was just born. And, you know, I had many moments where I was holding him or nursing him and crying as I did so because I, while loved this little bundle of joy, immensely, also just the amount of fears and

worries of what I just brought into the world again with another black son and the burdens that I have to carry with that again. And so it was really raw for me around that time. And I just remember them asking to go to the park and the laundry list of what I had to tell them. Don't wear your hood. Don't put your hands in your pocket. If you get stopped, don't run. Put your hands up. Don't make a lot of moves. Tell them your mother works for MP. I mean, it just went on and on. You know, there's it's funny, there's stages as they start to get older. One, it's the you just don't even want them to draw attention themselves enough for someone to call on them or get stopped. Then there's the stages of what you do if you do get caught. And then more recently, I remember, I had them watch, we all watch as a

family together, Ava DuVernays, When They See Us. And it was really, really hard for them to go through. And they were really torn because they were, you know, these were young kids. It was a Central Park Five, and they were young kids themselves, and they're watching this. And that was the first time that it changed to a new iteration of the talk. And that talk was, what do you do once you're inside those walls? Don't ever sign a confession. Don't ever let them tell you that your mom told you it's okay. Don't ever do this. And I was just like, oh my gosh, it doesn't stop with this. And so in this time around, it has been more about,

I will be honest, this time around, it's been more about what's not fair. And just be, you know, this just isn't fair, you guys. This is the way the world is. This is the way America is right now. It's the way it's been for a long time. And I can't lie to you. I don't think it's going to change in your lifetime. And it's just not fair.

It's just not fair for us to have to live like this. I imagine that it probably gets emotionally taxing for you to keep having these conversations with your boys when stories like George Floyd pop up. It seems like every few weeks or months now. What is your emotional state having to give this talk again and again and again? Yeah, you know, it's, I got to be honest about it. The more it happens, the harder it is to stay optimistic about it. And, I mean, we have an example right here within the span of one month of two different incidences that we've had to talk to them through. And I will tell you with the Ahmaud Arbery shooting, there was a sorrow, honestly, because we're in the middle of a pandemic. Most of us were still in a shelter in place then. And even in a pandemic, even when someone's home, even when everything, when America has- When the world should be still.

And yet, we're still killing black, unarmed black men in the streets. That's the one thing we can still seem to count on it for America. And that hit me like a ton of bricks. And that hurt my heart that that was the truth of where racism is in this country. But even when everything stopped, that's the one thing that continued. Yeah, that's just what it is. And so that conversation with them, that talk with them, there were a lot of tears. There were a lot of, it was a lot of helplessness. I don't know what to do anymore, you guys. I don't know how of helplessness. I don't know what to do anymore, you guys. I don't know how to save you. I don't know how to keep you safe. I don't know,

you know, my husband and I certainly have been sure to provide even, you know, wherever we did start a very good life for them more than what we had and make sure that we lived places where we felt safe as a family, where they were in the best school districts, where they could, you know, I always looked at very diverse neighborhoods as well because that was important to me. But there was, there started to be a thought for me for the first time of, I did everything to make sure that we weren't in crime-ridden areas and that we were in safe neighborhoods and that they did get the best. And still, I fear for them walking down the street. Still, did I do even more of a disservice by being the only Black family on this street? Do we have to do more work by making sure that everyone knows us and everyone knows our heart

and who we are and be friends with everyone? And even if that, is that enough? Because you don't know if someone's mother-in-law visits and doesn't know you and wonder why my kids are riding their bike or if someone wanders over from another street and questions us. It's, you know, it's one of those places where I, you know, my talk with my kids at that point is, it was a bit, like I said, hopeless. I just don't know what to do anymore. I just don't. I feel the same way. I feel like for me, as a black man who's covered these stories for a long time and also just gotten the talk from my mother growing up, I think there were two assumptions I had, you know, from Trayvon Ford. I said, well, eventually it will get better. There's the cameras now. There's the reforms. I ought to get better. That actually hasn't happened. And two, I thought that I would age out of the fear. Yes. I'm 35 now.

Yeah. And I had convinced myself in my 20s, well, you know, when you're older, they care about you less. You're not the black kid they're looking for. Not true. How old is George Floyd? How old was Eric Garner? And to hear you talk about how like it's almost inescapable, I feel the same way. I feel like no matter what version of our lives we're in as Black people, as Black mothers, as Black sons, it's always a version of the talk. Always. That's right. Because the truth of the matter is, no matter what we do, what job we get, what college we go to, what education we have, what level we are, how much money, what car, anything that you think may change even a little bit about how people see you,

there are still people that are only going to see the skin color. My oldest son, bless black jeans, and you just never know how they're going to show up in your kids. All of my kids are three different colors. I call them dark chocolate, milk chocolate, and white chocolate. I've got all three. I've got a See's candy box. And Lance is a very dark skinned, getting pretty tall, taller than me now, has a head above me. Very large, broad boy, 16 year old boy. To some, he is going to look older than 16.

To some, he is going to look this kid that has this heart of gold and as goofy as can be. He will look menacing. He will look threatening. And that is just because that's how they perceive dark, big black skin. So they have, from what you're telling me, they've gotten several versions of this talk over the last several years. How do they react when you say, all right, come on, get on this couch. You know what we're about to talk about now. Are they tired of it? You know, I think it depends. I think in the very beginning, they get it. And they, you know, I make them watch the news and I make them listen to NPR just to understand what's really going on

and so that we can talk about it. They get it. And at different levels, I do still think that they even live in a space that you were talking about of, you know, okay, I know this happens, but it's over there. And, you know, as they, you know, they're, oh, that's not fair. You know, this country's still killing black men. And why do they do that to us? And it's just not. And it's a very hard thing. You know, as they, you know, they're, oh, that's not fair. You know, this country's still killing black men. And why do they do that to us? And it's just not. And it's a very hard thing. You know, the one thing, Sam, that is difficult is that it is hard to do this and then also not have them hate.

Right? want them to get so angry that suddenly there's a space that I know a lot of Black boys live in of, you know, just, well, then you're just not supposed to like white people. You know, they do this to us. And, you know, that's what the rage is that we're seeing right now. People are angry and they're tired and they're frustrated and things have been done many, many different ways. And there's a bit of a desperation where we just don't even know what to do yet. And I don't know that I want my kids to ever get to that place. I want them to still feel like they can call for change. It is interesting to talk them through it, but to also leave them the space to maneuver it themselves, to figure out their identity. Like my middle one cracks me up. I always joke with him that I'm

going to give him a t-shirt that says straight out of Rockville because you would just think that he is like so hard. And so I'm like, where do you think you came from? You grew up in Rockville, Maryland. I loved it. But there's this space that he is trying to figure out as a young black man in his neighborhood and in America and society. And he may be pushing some boundaries here and there, but I have to let him do that to understand who he is and to be okay and find his place as a black man in this country and to maneuver both that fear that I let them know is real without the anger and the hate as well. Because there's something that will start to turn, I think, particularly in black men, where it gets so closed off to the world that, you know, you you're not you don't trust anyone that's right away that's right just stay away yeah your your work as a mother to three black boys in moments like this is if not complicated uh further nuanced by the fact that you work in a newsroom of mostly white people and you are directing them on how to talk to the country about these stories.

I'm really curious to hear you talk about the differences and similarities between the talk you give your black boys about this and the talk you give your white co-workers about this when you're telling them how to cover this on the air? I don't know, because I think while it may be two different versions, I think the bottom line is it all has to come from this place of authenticity and this kind of raw space of how do we get here? So with my boys, how did we get here? And what's our next step? And that's in your lane. But it's the same question to my white colleagues or my white friends. How did we get here? Are you here with me? Are you still a little bit further behind trying to catch up? Or are you finally here with me now? Are we ready to have this conversation?

And what's our next step? What's your next step? What's my next step? And what is our next step together? I live in this every day. You may live it in the moment when it happens, but it can slowly fade away for some people because life goes on. And it's not your life experience. It is my life experience. It is my boy's life experience. It does not go away. And the sad part is within the next couple of weeks, we'll have another one. And so, you know, it becomes more of a talk with my white colleagues about, are we ready to talk about what's really going on in America? Are we ready to face that this isn't a one-off or a two-off or a three-off or a 10-off? It is America. It is America. It is a 10 off because it is. Totally.

My last question for you really isn't a question. It's just a thing that I've been thinking a lot about in the last few days and grappling with the last few days. You know, these conversations focus a lot on black men killed by police. Yeah. But we should note, as we've talked about in this conversation, when a black man dies at the hands of police, a little bit of some black woman who nurtured him or mothered him or loved him dies too. And I cannot help but continue to hear George Floyd as he was being choked to death. He called out for his mother. He called out for his mother twice. And I think it just reminds me,

and I think I just want to say to you as one black son to a black mother, we never forget those talks. We never forget those lessons. We're always grateful for you and for your protection. And even in the final moments of our lives however those occur we will think of you oh sam see i thought i was going to make it all the way through me too i know that i have to tell you, I was watching the video, and of course, there's anger, there's the yelling. It's like, what? Can't you see?

And then when he said that. He said, mama, mama. When he called for his mama, oh, God, that just, there was something about that that changed in me. Because it just, the level of fear in somebody that you know you're about to lose your life, unnecessarily, unjustly, that that's your last call out is, it's devastating. And it's also this reminder. It's like for all of these people that would want to see the worst in a black man and see an enemy and see violence and see something dangerous. We're all actually some mother's son. Just somebody's son. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And that's what,

I think that's the hard part. I look at my boys and they love life and I see that and I know that and I love them for that and I want the world to see them the exact same way. You see it all the time, black moms say it, but God, if there were ever a time, what if my son's name was ever a hashtag? What if we're posting his picture in a remembrance senseless racism, it's just not fair that that's a constant thought every day as a mother of these three beautiful brown boys. Yeah. Well, my hope is that listeners hearing this, of all races and ages and walks of life, will learn something and have more talks with their families and make things a bit better. Yeah.

But whatever happens with whoever hears this, I want you to hear from me. Thank you. Thanks to all the mothers. Thank you. Thank you so much. That means a lot. That means more than you know. Thanks again to Kenya Young.

She is the executive producer of NPR's Morning Edition. All right, this week, It's Been a Minute was produced by Janae West, Anjali Sastry, Andrea Gutierrez, and Hafsa Fatima. We had engineering help from Gilly Moon. Our fearless editor is Jordana Hokeman. Our director of programming is Steve Nelson. Our big boss is NPR's senior VP of programming, Anya Grundman. Listeners, till next time, thanks for listening. Stay strong out there. I'm Sam Sanders. We'll talk soon. You may have noticed something at all these protests over police violence. There are a lot more white people there than you'd expect.

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