Life Kit - How To Stop Getting Interrupted At Work

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

Getting interrupted. Getting ideas stolen. Being talked over and ignored in meetings. This happens to women, people of color and marginalized workers a LOT.So what should you do when you get interrupted or talked over or have an idea stolen in a meeting? In this episode, Stacey Vanek Smith, author of the new book Machiavelli For Women, goes over four ways to be heard in the workplace.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Meetings. Love them, hate them. When it comes to the workplace, they are undeniably important. Meetings are where new ideas are born, special projects are assigned, and a lot of politics and power dynamics play out. If you are low in the pecking order, meetings can be a place where you are disrespected, interrupted, ignored, or even have your ideas stolen. Research has found that this happens to women, people of color, and LGBTQ and non-binary workers a lot. Stig, I'm so glad you're doing this episode. This is a thing that I have been thinking about a lot.

It's just so important who gets interrupted and when, you know? Thanks, Kenny. Kenny Malone from Planet Money. I'm glad this topic is resonating with you. Yeah, you know, I actually thought this would make a really good life kit episode. That is super interesting, Kenny. I think that would make a great life kit. Right? How to be heard in meetings. Right. Let's do it. Alexi Horowitz-Gazi, welcome. I'm glad you're interested in this. Yeah, if you think about it, being heard is so key. I mean, if nobody hears your ideas, how are you going to get those ideas off the ground?

Well, exactly. Yes, Alexi. And to piggyback off this, how are you going to get those ideas off the ground? Well, exactly. Yes, Alexi. And to piggyback off this, how do you get funding if your ideas aren't yours? Oh, yes. I love this idea, Kenny. Thank you, Alexi. I am super excited about this episode. Okay, so yes, I'm really glad you guys are excited about this. When I had this idea months ago, because I was working on a book, I have a book that's just come out. It's called Machiavelli for Women, and it deals with a lot of these issues in the workplace, like women and work and pay and how to handle things like getting interrupted. And that's where I got the idea for this show. And actually, I came up with five solutions, like things that you can do when you're getting interrupted.

That's awesome, Stacey. But Kenny, I am loving this idea. Why don't you kick us off? It's so good, Alexi. This is NPR's Life Kit. I'm Kenny Malone. And I'm Alexi Orowitz-Ghazi. No, no, no. I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. This is NPR's Life Kit, the show that I wrote. And I have five tips.

On this episode of NPR's Life Kit, how to be heard. Interruptions, idea stealing, getting talked over. It's all here, baby. We'll take a look at why this happens and what to do about it. We'll also offer solutions. Six takeaways for how to be heard. It's five takeaways? Six takeaways. NPR's Life Kit coming up. But I don't have six. Well, just make one up. That's what you do when you don't know. You just make it up and you say it really loudly and confidently. Being heard at work. So before we get to how to make this happen, I just want to say for the record that Kenny Malone and Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi are two of the kindest, most wonderful colleagues.

They do not interrupt me, but for sure I have been interrupted. And this kind of interruption, idea stealing, it happens in workplaces all the time to everyone, even people who you would think it would not happen to, like Supreme Court justices. In fact, this made news a few years ago as part of a study of Supreme Court transcripts. The study, which was published in the Virginia Law Review, found that female justices were interrupted three times more often than male justices, even though they spoke less often. The study cites many examples, but here's a particularly striking one. This happened to Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and the person interrupting her is a lawyer arguing a case. And by the way,

lawyers are technically not allowed to interrupt judges. But when you take what the president undertook, which was just to use best efforts. That doesn't sound like a much-due... Well, Justice Ginsburg, I think it's the operation of the supremacy clause. That's right. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was interrupted multiple times by a lawyer who was arguing a case to her. So what is going on here? Before we get to solutions, I think it's important to look at

why this happens. Why do people interrupt other people in meetings? Well, what's really going on is power. This is Tina Opie. She has a PhD in management, teaches at Harvard Business School, and is the head of Opie Consulting Group. So when you interrupt someone, you're trying to see who is at the top of the pyramid and who's at the bottom. In certain cases, this is super obvious and even official, like the CEO is at the top of the pyramid and the intern is at the bottom. And, you know, the CEO might interrupt the intern, but the intern probably is not going to interrupt the CEO. But then there are some more complicated issues at play, issues of gender, race, and sexuality. Our background cultural beliefs about what types of people in society are more valuable voices in most things. Cecilia Ridgeway is a sociologist at Stanford University and is the author of Status. Why is it everywhere?

Why does it matter? She says our ideas about who has more status are often rooted in sexism, racism, and other biases. And often we aren't even aware of them. It has to do with old ideas about status associated with gender and who sort of rightfully controls the structure of interaction. So when more important people tend to interrupt less important people more often, and we find that it's men versus women. And unfortunately, we have race ones too, white people versus people of color, middle-aged people versus the young and the old, and so on. Cecilia points out that talking in meetings, introducing an idea, steering the conversation,

these are high-status activities. And if someone who is perceived to be low-status starts doing that, interrupting them is a way to smack them down, put them in their place. It is a classic microaggression. Cecilia says women get interrupted far more often than men. Also, Black women's statements and ideas are misremembered and forgotten significantly more often than the statements and ideas of white women. And it isn't just gender and race that come into play. Sherita Gruberg is vice president of the LGBTQ Research and Communications Project at the

Center for American Progress. She says LGBTQ and non-binary workers report that this happens to them a lot. Transgender workers reporting highest levels of supervisors not listening to them, followed by bisexual workers, and then lesbian, gay, and then straight cisgender workers. Sharita says interruption, stealing ideas, talking over people, and dismissing what they say, it's a message. A message that marginalized workers get all the time in all kinds of different ways. All of these behaviors that are rooted in both disrespect and control. It is a form of disrespect, but it's also establishing a hierarchy or showing you don't belong here. But you are here.

So how should you deal with this behavior when it happens? What do you do when you get interrupted? And how can you make sure you are heard? Here are five solutions and takeaways for how to be heard at work. Takeaway number one, call it out. This is probably the most obvious and sort of immediate solution. Call it out. This is one really straightforward option you can try.

Hey, Alexi, I was talking. I would like to finish my thought. What I was saying is the option number one is to call it out in the moment. And you know, this has its advantages. You're immediately shutting down the toxic behavior. Alexi is probably less likely to interrupt me in the future. Also, emotional satisfaction, right? It just feels really good to just jump in and shut down Alexi in that moment. But there are some downsides. Cecilia Ridgway says people can make some pretty harsh assumptions about you if you do.

Well, you just got a hair trigger, honey. Cecilia says research shows that when women speak out like this or speak in a way that's perceived to be aggressive, it can have real consequences. People will often have a negative reaction. They'll really write you off, like you're coming on strong, and then they'll dislike you and reject you. They'll see you as being domineering and self-promoting. Cecilia says that can do real damage over the course of a career. People might be less likely to put you in charge of projects or promote you. They might hesitate to put you into a management position because they think you're abrasive and difficult. It's not fair, of course, but this can have a real impact. And Cecilia says this is not necessarily

true for men. Men will often be admired for speaking up or being assertive or pushing back, but for marginalized workers, it is more complicated. Pushback can be perceived differently. Tina Opie says she has thought about this a lot, mostly because she herself has experienced this backlash when she has tried to call out interruptions and idea stealing. For example, the word strident has been used to describe me. And I think it comes because I correct people when they interrupt me or take credit for my ideas. And what I'm asking myself is,

is this leading to the kind of influence that I want to have in this particular team? If it is, go for it. If it's not, then I'm just suggesting that there's a little bit more nuance to this conversation than simply saying, whenever someone interrupts you, correct them in public, in front of the group, right in the moment. A little bit more nuanced. And this takes us to takeaway number two. Call it out, but softly. So this is similar to calling it out. Stacy, this is such a good point. You're using kind of gentler language.

This is an option, is my understanding that a lot of women will use naturally. Yeah? Yes, yes, that's true. In fact, it uses something called a softener. And so softeners are language or tones that are used to equivocate or soften a statement. It can be a phrase like, I just think, or sometimes ending a sentence with a question. Stacey, and when we were reading about this yesterday, the softeners,

it just felt like the softeners were a good thing to emphasize. Uh, yeah. Actually, Kenny, I know you and I talked about that this morning, and I'm so glad that stuck with you and that you brought this up in this meeting. We can talk about it now. That's right. So as you can see, this rather gentle but awkward exchange, softeners are a way of calling out, but gently. And there are some serious upsides.

For one thing, softeners work. Studies have shown that when women use softeners, it can increase their influence with men. And that can be a brilliant strategy. Still, Cecilia Ridgway says softeners can be tricky. And there's a real downside. If you use the wrong ones, they can backfire. So people might hear what you say and allow you to finish your thought, but they might take that thought less seriously. So people might like, I don't know, they might hear your idea. I, sorry, I'm not saying this very well. They might take it less seriously. So Cecilia Ridgway, she says that like, I don't know,

maybe avoid some of them. Don't put yourself down and don't say, well, this idea is kind of stupid, but I could put it out there anyway. Don't say that. Instead, Cecilia suggests using a softener that has a little swagger. For instance, something like, you know, here's a thought. Not sure what you guys are going to think about this, but what if we tried X approach? Or, you know, just to follow up on what Kenny was saying and to finish my thought, what if we tried Y approach? And, you know, if that sounds a little awkward, it is. And that is a real downside. Softly calling things out can be passive aggressive. It is not always smooth.

Calling out, though, hard or soft, these are not the only options. And that brings us to takeaway number three, the long game. This is kind of like deep poker table skills. The long game is when you don't react at all. You get interrupted, your idea gets stolen, you don't react in the meeting. You wait, you observe. Tina Opie says this can be a good tactic, especially if it's a new workplace or a new group of people, or if you're just really junior. When someone interrupts me, we tend to have a hot reaction. It doesn't feel good to be interrupted. It's a slight.

So I have learned not to immediately respond. I tend to write down what I'm thinking. Then, says Tina, she will observe the person and the situation in question. Is this person interrupting everyone? Only women? Only people of color? Only her? Is this a culture where everyone interrupts everyone else? Or is it just this one person doing all the interrupting?

And then she will decide how to respond. If I know the person really well, I'm more likely to approach them directly and to say, hey, what was going on in that meeting? Remember, I was talking about cell phones and you interrupted me. What was up with that? This way, you are not shaming the person in public, but you are addressing the behavior.

You're making sure that they are aware of what they're doing and giving them a chance to change. This is also a moment where you can build or deepen a relationship with someone and have a conversation that could create real change. This is also a moment where you can build or deepen a relationship with someone and have a conversation that could create real change. This person could even become an advocate for you in the future. The downside is that the long game is really difficult in the moment. It takes a lot of discipline and you might pay a price emotionally. Also, it is allowing the

behavior. You are not standing up for yourself and you are letting someone talk over you in that moment. You're not fighting back. But Tina says it is important to remember that being heard in the workplace, it is not about one meeting or one idea. That's why I gave myself the advice, Tina, you don't have to fight for every idea in every meeting. Because unfortunately, what I think can happen is if you're constantly saying, that was my idea, you begin to lose influence. And the whole reason you want your ideas heard in the first place is because we want credit for those ideas so that we can influence the conversation. Tina says she has gotten very good at the long game over the course

of her career, but it is not her preferred solution. Tina's favorite way to deal with interruptions and idea stealing is our takeaway number four, amplification. So Tina first read about this in a Washington Post article written about the women in the Obama administration. They were having trouble being heard in White House meetings. And so they developed this tactic. Before the meeting, they would talk with each other. And they might say something like, OK, Stacey, when I get into this meeting,

I'm going to talk about cell phones. So when I get into the meeting and talk about cell phones, I need you to say, Tina, I love your idea about cell phones. So when I get into the meeting and talk about cell phones, I need you to say, Tina, I love your idea about cell phones. And then Janet, I need you to come right behind Stacey and say, Tina's idea about cell phones is amazing. By the way, Janet is producer Janet Woo Jung Lee. Hi, Janet. Hey, Stacey. So Janet, in order for Amplication to work, you need an ally in the meeting. Oh, Stacey, this is such a good one. And I remember reading something about how the women in the Obama administration did this. They were amplifying. I was thinking we should try that here right now. Oh, yeah. I think I read that article, too. That was super interesting. Very good article. Hey, guys. Hey, guys. I actually agree with Stacey's

idea that Tina's amplification tactic is super effective. I've used it a bunch of times in meetings and it really works. Yeah, that's so true, Janet. The upside of this is that it works really well. You can get momentum for your ideas. It's a great way to be heard. The downside is you need an ally or two to make this work. Which brings us to our final pro tip, takeaway number five, be the ally. If you see a colleague trying to say something and getting cut off, it's a great moment to jump in. You should think about calling people

out if they interrupt somebody else. So Alexi, I actually think Stacey was trying to make a point there. Stacey, what were you saying? Oh, thank you, Janet. I was just about to say that Sharita Gruberg at the Center for American Progress says calling out interruptions and idea stealing when it's happening to someone else is a really powerful tool in the workplace. But it's other folks who are our peers saying, Sharita was speaking. I'd like to hear what Sharita started saying first. And that's also really helpful. So, you know, you individually can advocate for others and speak out when you see those practices happening. And there's another kind of cool part about this. So remember, there's research that shows that women and other marginalized workers will often experience backlash if they speak up for themselves or their idea. But they will often not experience that backlash when they speak up on behalf of someone else. So if Janet jumps in to defend her own idea when she gets interrupted,

people might see her as aggressive or hot-headed. But if she jumps in to defend my idea or me getting interrupted, people will probably admire her. They will see her as fighting on behalf of other people. So there you go. Five ways to be heard at work. And of course, all of this is changing a lot right now. Sherita Gruberg says all of the new platforms and technologies are changing how we meet and the culture of meetings. And she says in some ways, a lot of the issues that we've been talking about can be even more

extreme on these new platforms. There's definitely times and circumstances when things can be even more extreme on these new platforms. There's definitely times and circumstances when things can be a little bit more challenging. It's very easy to talk over people via video. I imagine it's going to be even more of an issue for folks who were being spoken over before. But Sharita says this is also an opportunity. Right now, our work routines are being shaken up. Everything is changing. And that can create an opening to set new standards and change our communication and cultures for the better.

Thanks again to Tina Opie, Cecilia Ridgway, and Sharita Gruberg. And thanks also to the Oye Project for their recording of The Supreme Court. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We've got one on thriving in a hybrid workplace, quitting your job, and lots more on everything from health to finance to parenting. You can find those at npr.org slash lifekit. And if you love Life Kit and want more, subscribe to our newsletter. That's npr.org slash life kit newsletter. And now, as always, a completely random tip, this time from our listener, Mara. Hi, NPR. This is Mara. I have a Life Kit tip to soften

a hard veggie. Simply add a few punctures around the vegetable and then just pop it in the microwave for a minute or so. And what this will do is it will soften up that hard exterior to slice it up. If you've got a good tip, leave us a voicemail at 202-216-9823 or email us a voice memo at lifekit at npr.org. This episode was produced by Janet Ujung Lee. Megan Cain is the managing producer. Beth Donovan is the senior editor. Our production staff also includes Audrey Nguyen, Andy Tagle, and Claire Marie Schneider. And our digital editors are Beck Harlan and Winn Davis.

And a very special thanks to Kenny Malone and Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi, the best colleagues a girl could ask for. I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Thanks for listening.