Life Kit - How to talk about money with friends, from planning a hangout to splitting the bill

Episode Date: December 10, 2021

Even among the closest of friends, conversations about money and privilege can be awkward. In this episode from Life Kit and The Cut, author Otegha Uwagba discusses how we can break that ice — before it's time to split the check.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

My name is Maya Chupkov. I've been listening to LifeKits since the beginning of the pandemic. That's when I really started getting into podcasts. Two episodes, Flip My World Upside Down, Making a Side Gig Work for You, and Five Practices to Become a Better Listener. And not only was the content amazing and helpful, but the people you invited on to talk about these issues were verbally diverse people. It really changed my perspective of who can be on a podcast. And it really just made me realize that my own speech impediment was holding me back and listening to these two episodes really helped me find my own voice. I'm Maya and this is Proud Stutter, a podcast exploring what it means to be verbally diverse. After listening to those two episodes,

I realized that I too can become an audio storyteller. And I've been wanting to start a podcast for so long. I'm so appreciative of LifeKit's commitment to diversity and inclusion. LifeKit brings you advice from all sorts of experts. Voices you may not be used to hearing, but have expertise to share nevertheless. LifeKit is here to make a real impact in your life. Our journalists and guests work hard to demystify topics that seem scary or complicated. And we can't do that without you.

Our show relies on listener support from our audience all over the country. When you donate to your local public radio station, you help bring more voices to our airwaves and your headphones. Go to donate.npr.org slash life kit to get started with your donation. And thanks. This is NPR's Life Kit. I'm Jasmine Aguilera. There's a complicated dance we all do when it comes to friendships and money. Having friends means going out, doing activities together. In short, spending money. All of my friends are from different backgrounds and make different salaries

and have different values when it comes to saving and spending money. So I still don't know what the proper etiquette is when the bill comes. I haven't yet mastered the dance. And to make matters worse, since I moved to New York City, a lot of these insecurities have been turbocharged because this city is home to some super rich people. It's all very confusing, made nearly incomprehensible because we just don't talk about this kind of thing.

I mean, not really. And so, for this episode of NPR's Life Kit, in collaboration with The Cut, I spoke with Otega Owagba, author of We Need to Talk About Money. She helps us figure out the best way to approach the sticky situations that come up around money and friendships. She's been thinking about money and friendships for quite a while. I mean, I was working on this book for about three years before it came out and money and friendships for quite a while. I mean, I was working on this book for about three years before it came out and money and having it or worrying about not having it is something that has really kind of dominated my life for various reasons. And certainly in my

20s, it's something that I gave a lot of thought to. Otega says there's a reason why it's so hard to talk about money with friends. Money becomes shorthand for someone's values as a person. And so it kind of isn't surprising that we find it difficult to talk about it with friends. Money becomes shorthand for someone's values as a person. And so it kind of isn't surprising that we find it difficult to talk about it openly, that we feel discomfort or shame. The amount of money you have invites judgment. And she says money conversations can also serve as sort of a compass,

pointing you in the direction of people you actually want to spend time with. If I feel like someone is kind of tone deaf or insensitive or doesn't really appreciate their good fortune, I have to say that over my 20s, I've kind of phased those friendships out, like not in a deliberate way, but just in terms of thinking who I want to spend my time around and who frustrates me to be around. We started out with the basics. When is it appropriate to talk about money with new friends?

I think what's appropriate to ask kind of depends on how close you are as a friend. You know, in the same way that I probably wouldn't ask a total stranger, you know, or how did you pay for your apartment? Who pays for your apartment? How did you get on the housing ladder? But if someone, you know, if a friend of yours mentions something that they're doing that requires money and you kind of can't add it up and you don't understand how it fits and, oh, okay, we've just bought a second home and that sort of thing,

I think it's very appropriate to, just in quite a neutral way, just to say, oh, how have you made that happen? How have you afforded that? I know it's expensive. I think for me, it's about tone and delivery and asking in a non-defensive, non-judgmental way. And that's what I've found is most effective. I think if people are going to talk about the kind of lifestyles that having money enables them, then I think it's kind of fair to expect that other people might potentially have questions.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So in that case, what conversations about money should we be having with our friends? And what kind of boundaries should we set with them on the outset? Have you worked out any kind of strategies? I think the main kind of conversations I have with my friends is kind of in a social context, like, do you want to go to this restaurant? Do you want to go on a holiday? I mean, just last week, a friend said, hey, a couple of us are thinking of going to Mexico for New Year. And I just said, I've had a really expensive year. I also had a really nice holiday over the summer. So I don't think I can afford this one. I'm going to sit it out. And she was

totally understanding and, you know, being honest about your limitations both with your friends and with yourself like I think self-delusion is one of the like most expensive habits trying to keep up with your friends or compete with friends who have more money than you do um and that's like kind of like on a day-to-day level but on like a broader level something that I didn't have in my 20s and that I felt quite embittered about and I write about in my book is that I wasn't having a lot of honest conversations with friends whose parents had given them say the money to put down a deposit on a flat or maybe paying their rent and I for years didn't understand how everybody else was getting onto the housing ladder and it just seemed completely impossible for me um been there exactly like I think a lot of people have been there and it was only towards the tail

end of my 20s that I found the sorts of friends who a were in a similar position to me and b were more willing to talk about that even if they had had help if they said you know I've bought a place they'd be like yeah my parents helped me my parents gave me a deposit my parents and it was just that honesty that I was looking for yeah transparency seems to be the way to go and just approaching the topic, trying to be as neutral about it as possible. But let's say that we're in the position of being the privileged ones, you and I, and we need to talk about, you know, with somebody who is not as privileged as we are. Where is the line between, you know, just being transparent about our financial situations and say like, oh, you know, this turned out to be a very successful book.

So now I'm able to do this. And where where do you feel like it starts to get into bragging? Because that seems I'm struggling with that a little bit with my my friends back home. And I want them to be proud of me and happy for me. And I want them to know the details. I don't want to omit anything. But I also don't I don't know where the line is. That's an interesting question. I think you kind of just have to go slowly and see how receptive people are to what you're sharing. And, you know,

is somebody asking questions about, you know, if you say, okay, I signed this book deal and actually I got paid a decent chunk for it, or I've made a decent chunk in royalties you know what's their body language do they want to know more or are they kind of closed off and they don't seem engaged at all and I think that can kind of tell you more about it like I think if you are already conscious and worried about bragging then I think it's highly unlikely that you are like people who brag tend to just not be very self-aware I have found from being on both sides of the coin is that it's it's incredibly sort of crass to fret about your money worries to a friend whose problems probably outstrip yours so if you're telling them about these financial successes you've had now is also not the time to complain about oh but so-and-so got more for their book deal or so-and-so you

know got this cushy new job I think that is what I find that people tend to get wrong which is that they don't target I guess their complaints and their gripes and their issues at the right audience so I'm like go talk to your rich friends about that like they will understand that you know why you're annoyed about that like I think you really have to know your audience um but I you know I also don't think you should be embarrassed about financial success. But I think, again, it's just about being honest and honest about what it's allowed you to do and honest about what your limitations are as well. Yeah. And on the flip side there, let's say that's like a one-on-one conversation. Those

are very deep conversations. But let's, let's like step back to like a group of friends and, you know, the things that come up with us and money and groups of friends all the time, splitting checks at dinner. It's always going to be awkward. It's always weird. Nobody addresses it until the check comes. And it's always this like awkward, what are we doing kind of situation. And in my experience, and this is a very generalized experience, but rich people are kind of cheap. And I know this from being a waitress myself sometimes. So in a situation when you're in a group setting, and somebody wants to split the check evenly,

somebody wants to have everyone pay only what they ate, how do you navigate that? I think it's helpful to be the person who looks out for other people in that situation. And that's kind of what I tend to do. So if I've gone for dinner with friends, and let's say one of my friends isn't drinking or doesn't drink, and obviously that tends to bump the bill up, like whether or not it relates to me and my spending, I do kind of tend to look at it also and say, well, she didn't actually drink. So I think we should like, she should pay less and that sort of thing. I think that can be a really good thing to do within your friendship circle because then you're kind of advocating for each other now when I go out for dinner or go out for meals I kind of go out and

I'm like okay this is going to cost me and I'm kind of prepared with that and so I either opt into the occasion as a whole or I opt out so like I because I think it can be really tricky to kind of navigate the bill splitting situation so I'm either like okay well I think it can be really tricky to kind of navigate the bill splitting situation. So I'm either like, okay, well, I'm going out for dinner, and this is going to cost me or I can't really afford this at the moment. So I'm at home, you know, I can host you guys at mine. And the more you do it, the easier it gets. And you'll often find that other people within your group are actually kind of grateful to you for doing that because like they also maybe don't want to spend money or they also kind of feeling a bit strapped or, you know, they're just generally quite sympathetic. Yeah, that makes sense. So I'm afraid to bring up money to my wealthier friends because I'm afraid that they're going to think

that that is the reason I'm friends with them. I can tell that that is a number one fear. One of my friends, for example, is deathly afraid that people are only friends with her because they assume that she's going to hook it up constantly. And I end up spending more money than I want to just to make things simple when I hang out, because I don't want to have that like, tension hanging in there. It's like, am I saying, you know, am I hanging out with you? Because I

want to hang out with you? Or am I hanging out with you? It just, how do I stop that whole section of tension and without making it awkward how do I convince like lay that foundation that I'm not friends with you because you know you can get me into these parties or you have this amount of wealth well I think you kind of have to um suck up that it is going to be awkward when you kind of have the initial conversation that I'm going to advise that you have like an honest conversation and like a neutral setting it's not the next time you guys go out and you're a really expensive um restaurant or bar or whatever but maybe if you're going for a walk or like she's over at yours and just saying hey you know do you think we could like and kind of suggest in what terms of the things that you can do that

maybe a little bit more on your budget and just say that like just be really honest like we are not in the same financial position and I don't want our friendship to be um kind of based around what we can do with each other that involves spending money like I think one of the weird silver linings of the pandemic was I realized how much I could sustain certain friendships without spending money because we couldn't go out we couldn't go anywhere and so there were a lot of phone calls and a lot of walks in the park. And, you know, when restrictions eased to an extent, a lot of like dinners at people's houses. And it made me realize how we'd kind of gotten into the cycle of thinking the only way we could socialize with each other was to go somewhere expensive, you know, service charge

and get an Uber home. And actually, that was all periphery to our friendship. Yeah. That's a great note too about the pandemic, like stripping away all these like structures that we put ourselves into. What if you're a guest, and you go visit a friend, is treating them appropriate or polite? Oh, definitely. Let's say you go and stay with a friend they put you up for a week or something it's polite to buy a present or on the final night that you guys go out you take them out to a nice restaurant and you pay like that to me is just like social niceties and politeness and in a way i think those things the need for those things kind of diminishes the longer you've been

friends i will just kind of turn up and like just flop on their sofa because it's like we're kind of beyond the point of those social niceties um so it definitely does kind of depend on the nature of a friendship but it's always nice to like offer a token of gratitude and I think it's it's something that I always kind of try to do if if I'm if somebody has been generous with me it doesn't have to be expensive I think it's just the thought and the effort that counts if staying with someone has saved you money let let's say it saved you, let's say you're going to visit a friend in a different country. And instead of having to pay for a hotel and Airbnb for a week, they let you stay in their place. Well, then you kind of have to think about it. It's like, oh, well, I've saved, you know, a thousand dollars.

So I can carve off a chunk of the thousand I've saved and maybe buy them like a really nice present. Yeah yeah I'm really glad that you mentioned that the need for those niceties diminishes as you get closer to someone because I definitely have that experience. Yeah I'm I think way less polite with my with my like very close friends and with people I don't know as well which I don't know what that says about me. Yeah what do you think the biggest takeaway that you have come away with about this whole topic since writing your book and since thinking about it in such a deep way? I think one of the most toxic emotions around money can be shame. And I think that can be the thing that just emotionally stops people from making progress and how they feel about money. I think one of the best ways to alleviate shame is having conversations with people in your life or conversations with therapists. I think we're really conditioned not to talk about money and

not to admit to some of our more base instincts and some of our more negative emotions, whether it is jealousy or bitterness or resentment, all these things. And it kind of keeps us trapped and it keeps us locked and it stops you from really establishing a healthy relationship with money. So that is the main reason that I think that we need to talk about money because it absolutely can be transformative for how you feel about money. Just a reminder, if you love and appreciate Life Kit, go to donate.npr.org slash life kit to get started with your donation. Again, that's donate.npr.org slash life kit. This episode was produced in collaboration with The Cut.

You can listen to their episode about friends, money, and what happens if you end up on a viral TikTok spreadsheet that ranks your friends by income wherever you find your podcasts. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We have one about how to boost your credit score and another on how to travel with friends. You can find those and so much more at npr.org slash life kit. And if you love Life Kit and want more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org slash LifeKit newsletter. This episode of LifeKit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider. Megan Cain is the managing producer. Beth Donovan is the senior editor.

Our production team also includes Audrey Nguyen, Andy Tegel, and Janet Ujung Lee. Our digital and visual editor is Beck Harlan. Special thanks to Noor Busidi, Jolie Myers, and Natasha Knox. I'm Jasmine Aguilera. Thanks for listening.