Life Kit - How to talk to kids about sex, bodies and consent

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

It's tricky to talk to younger kids about sex. This episode helps parents get past the confusion and embarrassment around sex education so they can raise healthy, responsible kids. This episode originally aired December 17, 2019.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

You're listening to Life Kit from NPR. Hey everybody, it's Marielle. Here at NPR, we are very serious. And thus, my friends, education correspondent Corey Turner and former NPR education correspondent Anya Kamenetz would like to play a very serious game with you. Penis. Penis.

Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis! Penis! Okay, so for real though, this is very serious business. Because getting comfortable with words like penis is crucial if you're a parent trying to explain sex and consent to your kids. On this episode of Life Kit, the birds and the bees, like you've never heard them before, Anya and Corey are going to teach you how to have conversations about anatomy and sex, specifically with younger kids. Because whether you bring this up or not,

they're going to have questions about their bodies and about where they came from. In this episode, the birds and the bees for a new decade. And we should say, we're going to deal here with the younger kids, say, birth to the doorstep of puberty. Yeah, because once the pubic hair and the body odor start to kick in, you're going to need a whole nother life kit. Thank you for that mental image, Corey. Oh, sure.

So, without further ado, our first takeaway of the day. Yeah, takeaway number one, a penis is not a hoo-hoo. Yeah, and a vulva is not a front bum. We're just going to go out on a limb here and say that most of you listening, like us, might struggle a bit finding and using the accurate words for our private parts because it's not what you got when you were a kid. You know, Corey, I grew up in the Deep South and my mom would definitely consider herself

a feminist, but she was also a Southerner. And she used to tell me things like, that's dirty or that's your pee pee. And so when I had my own daughters and they started asking me questions about their bodies, I thought it would be a good idea to make up a word. So here's my daughter, Elvie. She's three. What do we call the thing that you have in your underwear? What part of your body is that? A snooty.

What's a snooty? I don't know. You don't know? Do boys have a snooty? No, they have a penis. Facepalm moment there, seriously. Wait, I love that you taught her the proper term for penis. You're halfway there.

Halfway there. That's true. 50%. Here's the thing. We don't want anyone to feel badly. I don't want you to feel badly because the fact is you are not alone. So Bonnie Ruff is the author of the book Beyond Birds and Bees. One thing I never thought I would do is write a book about sex, let alone kids and sex. But that changed for Bonnie when she moved with her two young daughters from Minneapolis to a place where they do things pretty differently, Amsterdam in the Netherlands.

So she says it was pretty shocking at first. For example, at her daughter's Dutch preschool. Teachers were using accurate terms for body parts and body functions. The children were being helped with their toileting in a little bathroom where there were potties in a row. And children of different genders were really just kind of able to see and experience the presence of one another's bodies and their body differences as something that is a normal part of everyday life. Wow, what a concept. And a related idea that struck her about life in Amsterdam was the tone that her kids' teachers used when they talked about bodies. Instead of a diaper being yucky or dirty or stinky,

it might just be full or empty or wet or dry. So giving those body functions a kind of normalcy. It's so much bigger than just sex. Bonnie saw how all of this openness about bodies led to happier, more confident kids, especially girls. Yeah, and partly as a result, the Netherlands has lower teen pregnancy and abortion rates, fewer SEIs, and a more gender-equal society. The more we know about our bodies, the healthier and happier we are. So Dr. Cora Bruner says that data in the U.S. backs Bonnie Ruff's point up.

More and better and more comprehensive sex ed leads to better outcomes for kids. Dr. Bruner is a pediatrician, and she actually wrote the American Academy of Pediatrics sex ed guidelines. My poor kids, they, you know, we hung condoms on Christmas trees as ornaments. I mean, they have been exposed to all this for a long time. Happy holidays. With little children, Dr. Bruner suggests they learn the correct names for penis and vulva, just like you would any other part of the body. You just say it in a way that's the way you would say brush your teeth,

as opposed to saying that's your female parts or that's down there. You don't say that. Or snooty. You don't say that. And luckily for me and for you, if you haven't done this yet, it's never too late to start using the right words. My older daughter Lulu is eight and I promise she knows the word vulva. I get it, but I still don't know if I can say the word penis in front of my kid. That is from a series of educational cartoon videos called Amaze Junior,

and they're intended especially for parents like us who want help talking to our kids about these issues. Yes, and in this one, a counselor is trying to reassure parents who are clearly feeling a little awkward. Embarrassment is one of those catchy feelings. And most of us caught embarrassment about sexual things from people around us when we were very young. So we never get to find out that these words are just words and that it's really healthy and okay to say them out loud. You're right. Why should I be embarrassed to say testicles or erections?

Nipples? Masturbation. Vulva. Clitoris. Ejaculation. Scrotum. Vagina. Penis!

And if you need them, there are two more reasons to get over this embarrassment, experts say. Number one, the doctor. Yeah, if your child is in pain, they can tell the pediatrician or you, my testicle hurts or my labia itches, clear up a lot of confusion. Also, Dr. Bruner says it's possible that a child who lives in a house where they feel comfortable and open discussing their private parts will be less vulnerable to sexual predators. And if you're up for it, Bonnie Ruff has one more concrete suggestion around normalizing bodies.

Yeah, let your kid be naked when they want to be, even if grandma's visiting. You know, if we stay child-centered, this isn't about what grandma thinks. Before we move on, we need a quick acknowledgement here. We know for some of you, maybe many of you, this is going to be challenging where we're headed. And in some cases, our guidance may actually conflict with your family's beliefs. We put this life kit together based on the best research we could find. But this isn't all an exact science. And so what we're really asking you to do is listen and think about what is going to be best for your family.

So takeaway number two, answer your kids' questions. What we've learned is that kids are never too young for you to tell them about their bodies and sex. Do it clearly, simply, honestly, and let's not forget, briefly. Or as Dr. Bruner puts it, It's important to be factual and concise and loving. Now, if that's hard for you because you're not yet comfortable, here's some advice to get there. Practice in the mirror. You've got to monitor your facial expressions and your tone. Practice before you do it.

That's Brittany McBride. She's a sex educator with Advocates for Youth. And she's one of the people behind that Amaze Junior video we heard earlier. Yeah, and Brittany says she benefited from her own family's determination to get this stuff right. My parents were actually teenagers when they had me and went the complete opposite from what they received from their parents. So we started talking about sex from as early as I can remember. So Brittany is based in New Orleans, and she has worked with 40 of the largest school districts in the country to improve sex ed. And she says keeping our cool makes us more approachable as parents, and that's really important. Do it in a way that makes them feel safe and that you are a trusted person to

come and talk to about those things. Brittany gives the prose approach to the classic question, where did I come from? Which her own daughter asked when she was maybe five or six years old. Really, when a kid is that young, the question is not so much about sex, but instead about space and time. And where was I before I got here? And how did I get here? As opposed to the actual act of sex and how they were created. So for young children, find out why they're asking and then answer exactly what they're asking. No more, no less. So in other words, keep things very simple, very quick.

Talking about the facts around like anatomy, explaining that you grew in your mom's uterus and that's where a baby lives and grows until they are born and then you were born and you joined our family and we've loved you you can cover the rest next time and that's part of the big point here the birds and the bees should not be one talk your kids need to feel comfortable coming to you with their questions time and time again so there is a next time, and especially when their questions start getting harder. I'm confused. The sperm and the egg are in two different bodies, so how do they get together? As we said, Brittany's organization helped make these Amaze Junior videos aimed at kids as young as four. And they're a great resource for parents who are looking for a little help

answering these questions, especially when they get kind of tough. Well, a person's penis is shaped just the right way for it to fit together with another person's vagina. Kind of like a puzzle? A puzzle with only two pieces? Sounds pretty easy to me. Okay, so now that we're talking about pieces that fit together in a certain way, this is a really good time to acknowledge that sex can include different pieces for different people. And this is why we have our next takeaway.

Yeah, takeaway number three, talk about everybody right from the beginning. Yes, while our answers for young children are brief, they also should be accurate about different gender identities and all different kinds of families. For example, when my wife and I talk about family with our boys, we always include the same-sex couples and single parents in our lives to make clear family comes in all kinds of shapes and sizes. Yes. Elvie, who's three, she's wrapping her head around this too. The other morning in the coffee shop, she just out of the blue was like, some people have two daddies. And I was like, yeah,

like some of your friends. And Brittany McBride says from her very first quick conversation with her daughter about where she came from, she set the expectation for this kind of inclusivity. We also talked about adoption. We also talked about, you know, family friends who have always felt like they've been a part of our family. Yeah. And let's not forget gender and genitals, too. So instead of boys have a penis and girls have a vagina, it's more inclusive to say most people who are boys like you and daddy have a penis and most people who are girls like mommy, they have a vulva.

Now, if you're wondering, do my kids really need to know all this? Bonnie Ruff says, consider this. Knowledge about sexuality does not spoil innocence. We have this funny idea in our culture that childhood and innocence are the same and innocence is the same as ignorance. What a funny concept. I mean, it's so easy to quickly pick that apart and realize that's not true. So Bonnie argues that if sex and bodies are demystified a little bit, kids can spend less time wondering about them and more time focusing on, you know, being kids.

They can be confident and clear and knowledgeable about their bodies and get on with playing Legos or whatever they want to do. And we're going to get on to takeaway number four. Tickling and pizza are learning opportunities. Or in other words, sex ed isn't just about sex. It includes our relationships, our own kind of knowing ourselves, our wants and preferences, and how we treat other people. Everybody we spoke with for this episode told us that a lot of this kind

of social-emotional groundwork can and should happen really early on, actually with toddlers. Yeah, take the concept of consent, or in other words, no means no and only an enthusiastic yes means yes. We can start practicing this with our kids years before we get into the details of sex. For example, tickling turns out to be a great opportunity to do this. Bonnie says just the other day, her youngest daughter wanted to be tickled.

I said, OK, is there anywhere that you want to be tickled or don't want to be tickled? And she said, OK, not in the armpits and only a little bit on the bottoms of my feet. And so this is a non-sexual conversation about consent and desire. And Bonnie's daughter is saying what she wants. Oh, and the other rule that she always knows is if she says stop, I stop. That is a non-negotiable, Bonnie says. And if you look at things this way, kids' lives are full of opportunities to talk about saying what you want, desire, as well as negotiating what you want, consent. Absolutely. Here's another great example from Emily Spahn.

She's a mother in Wisconsin who saw an opportunity when her three-year-old son asked a girl if she wanted some pizza. She said yes. And so then he gave her the pizza and then she didn't want it. And he was so upset because he said, but she said she wanted the pizza. And I was like, oh, this is perfect. I'm like, oh, but you can say you want the pizza and then you can change your mind at any time. And you don't have to have the pizza. So Emily is teaching her son how to respect a no.

Brittany McBride, the sex educator in New Orleans, says this is really important. So often we talk about consent of, you know, the responsibility of the person to say no or yes. And we don't really talk a lot about what it feels like when you get the no that you're really hoping would be a yes. In this situation, like any other, we want to give our kids the tools to cope with disappointment and rejection by helping them name and manage their feelings. So you might have to reinforce this consent idea with relatives or family friends as well, like if you're visiting family around the holidays and grandma really wants a hug.

Help your kids feel safe and set those boundaries and also let them know when grandma closes in that you're going to support them if they don't want to be hugged. And it doesn't matter really if we're talking about a hug or a tickle or a slice of pizza. Right. This is the kind of talk that gives kids the tools they're going to need to navigate not just sex but romance later on. So we've talked about consent and desire. Now you're ready for something really difficult. Yeah, our takeaway number five. They're going to explore their bodies, and that is okay.

We're going to talk about our kids looking at or touching their own or another child's private parts. Yes, Dan Rice is a national sex ed expert. He works with Brittany McBride at Advocates for Youth. And he told us self-touching happens right from the beginning. You'll see when they are babies and toddlers that they often have their hands down their pants. It's a soothing thing to them. It's not, as we look at it through our adult lenses, sexual or anything of that nature. So Bonnie Ruff, she says that, you know, for generations, Americans have been told to tell their kids either don't do that at all or at best, go do that in private. We can do so much better than that now. You know, a lot of kids at that age simply just

don't understand what privacy is about. What it's about in that case is really for us and our adult comfort. So Bonnie suggests that our kids really need to hear from us. Things like, isn't it nice to have a body that can feel good? And if you need more words to use, here's what Brittany McBride would say. Honey, I'm glad you're enjoying your body. It's totally normal. And at the same time, let's find a safe place for that, like your bedroom. Let's totally normal. And at the same time, let's find a safe place for that, like your bedroom. Let's think about other people's comfort as well. So now let's jump over to the kind of exploration of each other's bodies that most little kids are

going to do at some point or another. And we should say we're talking about behavior between kids who are of similar ages. This is a little more complicated, obviously, because it involves consent and protection. That's right. And Corey, I know you have a story about this. Yeah, I do. A really short one. I remember in preschool playing the old I'll show you yours if you show me mine

with a girl friend of mine at nap time. And we both got into a lot of trouble with a teacher. And I remember that being scary and really confusing. Like, why did we get in trouble? You know what? I had the opposite experience. I had other girl playmates who wanted to play doctor with me. I didn't want to play.

And I didn't have the vocabulary to talk about it. And I felt so uncomfortable. I just didn't know what to do. So I guess the point to all this is this is pretty common. But also complicated. And also complicated. And the good news is that Bonnie has some this is this is pretty common. But also complicated. And also complicated. And the good news is that Bonnie has some rules for this kind of play. They come from Elspeth Reitzema.

She's one of the authors of the sex ed curriculum in Dutch schools. And Bonnie actually asked her about this subject. And Reitzema said, oh, yeah, the doctor game. And she said, oh, that's Dr. Tisbalen. We have rules for that game. She passed me a little pamphlet for parents and sure enough there are rules. Three rules in fact. The first rule is everyone has to agree it's a nice idea to play. That gets back to what you want. That's about affirmative consent. The second rule is you may do no pain. And rule number three is that

nothing goes in any orifices. Rules to live by, Corey. Rules to live by. At least at school. That perfectly sets up takeaway number six, Anya. Don't forget the joy. Yeah. So Bonnie Ruff in our conversation said something that's really stuck with me. It's a fascinating question, which is, what do we want our kids' sexual lives one day to be like? Actually trying to do this huge mind shift to asking ourselves and talking with our friends and fellow adults about, what are our hopes and dreams for our kids in their sexual lives instead of always just what are our fears. Okay, so what does that mean? It means we often spend so much time warning our kids about the risks of sex,

be it pregnancy or sexually transmitted infections, that we forget to tell them that sex, when they're old enough, is really pleasurable. Brittany McBride says this is crucial and it's worth getting over our mental blocks. It's very difficult to imagine your child as a sexual being as a child. But from the moment that they are born, they are sexual beings. I love to joke that I knew that my youngest was a boy because on the ultrasound I saw him playing with his penis. And Dan Rice, Brittany's colleague, makes this great point. Really, if we are not talking about pleasure as part of a sexual act when students start to get older, they basically start to tune us out because they feel like that we are being disingenuous with them. Yeah. In other

words, they will figure it out somewhere and you will no longer be a trusted source of information. This whole episode, we've been telling you, be factual with your kids about sex. And one of the facts about sex that rarely gets taught is that it's supposed to feel good. But, you know, there's even more to it than that. You can celebrate relationships, Bonnie says. We can rave about love. We have so many wonderful opportunities to, you know, remind kids that most of sexuality actually consists of thoughts and feelings and relationships. Yeah. And to underscore this point, Bonnie told us that when people in Netherlands grow up and they reflect on their first of joy, Dr. Bruner reminds us it's okay to laugh. She says when she's teaching sex ed to middle school students...

They have to have what I call giggle breaks or laugh breaks. And I have to laugh with them because it's our bodies and I'm not trying to make fun of our bodies. It's just something to be joyous about and celebrate. Yeah, so this was a paradigm shift for me, honestly, Corey, in reporting this episode.

We're not just talking about safety here. We're not just giving medical information, handing out condoms. We're talking about something that is hopefully a very wonderful and fulfilling part of our kids' lives as they grow up. You know, we've been saying this all along, but I just want to remind parents that if this feels really new and confusing, you can and should get back up. It's out there.

You can use videos, like we mentioned, from Amaze Junior. You can check out books at the library. You can go to a sex ed class with your kids. You can also obviously talk to your kid's pediatrician about all of this. Okay, so now it's time for our recap. Here we go. Takeaway number one, a penis is not a hoo-hoo and a vulva is not a schnooty. Though I wish it were because I love saying schnooty. Can't have that one, Corey.

That's my family word. Can't have it. Body parts have names and using them is the first step to helping kids be safe and healthy. Yes. Our takeaway number two is answer their questions. Kids are never too young for you to tell them about their bodies. Clearly, simply, honestly, and let's not forget briefly. Factual and concise and loving. Takeaway number three, talk about everybody from the beginning. Not all babies have a mommy and a daddy. Yeah, and you know, not all princesses have vulvas. Takeaway number four, sex ed isn't just about sex.

Tickling and pizza are learning opportunities, so you can be laying the groundwork for things like consent long before you're talking about sex with your kids. Yeah, and our takeaway number five is kids are going to explore their bodies, and that's okay. Encourage our children to enjoy living in the human bodies they were given by saying things like, isn't it nice to have a body that can feel good? And takeaway number six, don't forget the joy. Yeah, and the laughter.

Laughter. That totally is her giggle. That was NPR education correspondent Corey Turner and former NPR education correspondent Anya Kamenetz. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. There's one about being a supportive adult in a kid's life, and another about how to create a stronger bond with your child. You can find those at npr.org slash life kit. And if you love Life Kit and you want even more,

subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org slash life kit newsletter. Also, have you signed up for Life Kit Plus yet? Becoming a subscriber to Life Kit Plus means you're supporting the work we do here at NPR. Subscribers also get to listen to the show without any sponsor breaks. To find out more, head over to plus.npr.org slash life kit. And to everyone who's already subscribed, thank you. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Lauren Magaki. It was edited by Steve Drummond.

Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Cain is our supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tegel, Audrey Nguyen, Claire Marie Schneider, and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Sina Lafredo. Special thanks to Bonnie Ruff, Brittany McBride, Dan Rice, Nora Gelperin, Amy Lang, Dr. Cora Bruner, Emily Spahn, and all the parents who shared their stories with us. I'm Mariel Cigara. Thanks for listening.