Life Kit - Microaggressions are a big deal: How to talk them out and when to walk away

Episode Date: June 9, 2020

Microaggressions are the everyday, thinly veiled instances of racism, homophobia, sexism and other biases that come across in gestures, comments or insults. But the "micro" doesn't mean that the acts don't have a big impact. While there's no one right way to address a microaggression, we have some pointers for ways you can begin to respond.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from Wondery Kids and the number one kids science podcast, Wow in the World. Be wowed by fascinating companion audio stories that come exclusively with each Wow in the World stem toy. Shop the full collection today at Amazon.com slash Wondery Kids. This is NPR's Life Kit. A lot of people are talking about the big topics of race and racism, police and power, after the police killing of George Floyd and the protests that have come after. You might be having conversations right now with your family or workplace or friend group, asking variations of, what can I do? Or even, how am I complicit?

Which is a conversation worth having, but it's also one that, if you do it right, will include either calling out how someone may have said or done something kind of messed up or being called out on having done or said something messed up. Unintentionally, even. You've probably heard the term for these types of transgressions. They're called microaggressions. Because they can occur at any given time. They can occur in workplace settings. They can occur inaggressions. Because they can occur at any given time. They can occur in workplace settings.

They can occur in conversations within families. They can occur just walking down the street. And so we have these huge systemic issues that are happening. And then we also have these everyday sorts of interactions that are a result of those systemic issues. Kevin Nadal is a professor of psychology at John Jay result of those systemic issues. Kevin Nadal is a professor of psychology at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. He's done research and written books on the effects of microaggressions and how people can cope with them. Everything going on right now with the protests and police violence on top of the pandemic might seem big, but I ask Nadal why it might be important to think small.

We navigate all of these things in our lives, for many of us, on a daily, hourly basis. And for some of us, where we might not even recognize that we are navigating them or even perpetrating them. And that's why it's important for us to have these conversations. I'm Andrew Limbaugh, and this episode of LifeKid is all about identifying microaggressions and how or when to confront them. Helpful even if you don't face them yourself. Because, well, if you are actually trying to learn something from this moment,

these small daily interactions are as good a place as any to start. Donald Trump promised to change Washington, D.C., a place where there's an old saying that personnel is policy. That's why we have created a new podcast called Trump's Terms, where you can follow NPR's coverage of the incoming Trump administration, from his cabinet secretaries to political advisors and top military leaders, to understand who they are, what they believe, and how they'll govern. Listen to Trump's terms from NPR. On the Embedded podcast from NPR, what is it like to live under years of state surveillance?

So many people have fear of losing their families. For years, the Chinese government has been detaining hundreds of thousands of ethnic Uyghurs. This is the story of one family torn apart. Listen to The Black Gate on the Embedded podcast from NPR. All episodes are available now. This message comes from Wondery. Tis the Grinch holiday podcast is back. Listen as the Grinch's celebrity guests try to persuade him that there's more to love about the holiday season. When the term microaggressions first came on vogue a handful of years ago,

I think people sort of like misunderstand what it is. So what's a microaggression versus say like a macroaggression? Sure. So microaggression is defined as the everyday, subtle, intentional, and oftentimes unintentional interactions or behaviors that communicate some sort of bias towards historically marginalized groups. The difference between microaggressions and, let's say, overt discrimination or macroaggressions is that people who commit microaggressions might not even be aware of them. When we think about overt discrimination, hostile discrimination, violence, things like that, these are people that are intentionally trying to hurt or harm people of various groups because of their identity groups. When people commit microaggressions, it's sometimes that they didn't even realize that they did anything at all.

So, you know, some examples of microaggressions include what we would label as microinsult. Somebody who presumes that an Asian American wouldn't speak English, that would be considered an insult. And so somebody who says to a person, wow, you speak really good English, and the Asian American person says, thanks, I was born and raised here, I wouldn't know what else I would be speaking, that that would be an insult that conveys that they presume the Asian American would have been a perpetual foreigner, or they wouldn't have been American enough or born and raised in this country. Another example of a micro insult might be something like presuming that a Black person

or a person of color would be dangerous or violent in some way. So a very common experience that people of color and Black people, Black men particularly, talk about is being followed around in stores or getting on an elevator and people moving to the right or left and grabbing their purses or their wallet. To be clear, the micro in microaggression doesn't mean that the acts can't have big, life-altering impacts. Far from it, actually. There's a mental health toll to these constant, repetitive stressors. And on the more extreme side of it, the presumption of violence can lead to the cops being called, which often doesn't end well. Oftentimes people don't even realize that they're doing those sorts of things. And in fact, if you were to stop them and say, why did you just move?

They would deny it because they don't recognize that their behaviors communicate their racial biases. What is the value in the binary and then like putting them into two different camps? You know what I mean? Like if someone says something racist to me, right? What does their intent, like what can I do with knowing about whether or not they intended it? You know, at the end of the day, if somebody says something racist to you, it's racist. And if it hurts your feelings, it hurts your feelings. And if it makes you feel like crap, it makes you feel like crap. So it doesn't really matter, you know, what we would

define it as. But it is important to understand because a lot of times people who engage in microaggressions will not believe that what they said was racist or sexist or homophobic. And so calling them racist or sexist or homophobic would be something that would make them very defensive and make them unable to even recognize what their impact was. Not that microaggressions is too much better in terms of their defensiveness. But in my experience, what I found is by people who are aware that microaggressions exist, are able to have this sort of language, we recognize that we all are human beings who are prone to mistakes, and we're all human beings who might commit microaggressions. And it's not necessarily that you're a bad person if you commit a microaggression, but rather that you're a human who needs to be more aware of their biases and their impact on people, and that we all need to be committed, working on these things in order to be a more

harmonious society. But that does get into weird territory, right? Like now we're having a discussion about Black people and police brutality, and neither of us are Black. It is weird, but it's also like, you know, you don't have to be of a certain group to understand that something is unjust. You know, you don't have to be a woman to understand that sexism is real. You don't have to be, you know, a queer person to understand that homophobia is still real.

It's really just learning how to be empathetic to people and also just to be really aware and knowledgeable of history. This country is founded on racism towards Indigenous people and racism towards Black people. And that's not new. And so even if we might not necessarily understand exactly what it means to be the member of the targeted group at that moment, we certainly can relate to some of those experiences and can certainly rely on our knowledge and our awareness of history and of the lived experiences of people of those groups. Okay, so let's say you get into a conversation about current events, right?

And the conversation turns towards like police and, towards like, police and, you know, racism and, you know, police brutality and all that. And like, maybe a microaggression hasn't come up yet, but you can, you can like smell it in the air, like it's spring, right? Like, okay, you know, I can see that we're treading into some certain dangerous territory here. Like, what are your options there? I think there are a lot of things that people need to consider when having what we would call difficult dialogues with people. And it could be either whether or not the person is worth talking to. Is this somebody that you care about? Is this somebody who you think would actually have the capacity to hear what you have to say? Is this somebody who you're even close to, who you would even care would have some

personal growth or not? A lot of times people get into a lot of arguments with people that maybe they don't need to necessarily be emotionally invested in because they don't have that sort of relationship. And so these are types of decisions that people need to make. And if you are close, and if you do have a relationship that you might be worried about, in terms of having these difficult dialogues, maybe say something like, you know, maybe we need to take a break. And I'm going to give you something that I hope you could read. And maybe that would be something that could be helpful or effective even more than a conversation that might just turn into yelling and hostility and inability to actually communicate with each other. Is there a risk of that looking like homework?

Yes. So with all of these conversations comes the risk of homework, comes the risk of people having to do extra work. Oftentimes people of color are asked to speak about issues related to racism and to then educate white people on issues that the person of color has lived with and thought about for their entire lives. As a result of that, that can be very psychologically and emotionally exhausting for a person to then have to care about the white person's feelings and to take those extra efforts so that they can learn something that they should have and could have learned throughout the duration of their life.

And it's not just about race. It's oftentimes something that happens with women and LGBTQ folks and people with disabilities and immigrants and people of size and people of various marginalized identities, having to educate the person with power and privilege. And so with that, I say that, you know, you don't have to do that if you don't want to. At the same time, if you're a person with those privileged identities and you want to be a your job, your responsibility to have those conversations so that other people of color or women or LGBTQ folks won't have to have that conversation for you. Yeah. You're in a difficult dialogue with somebody that you like and have invested in, right? Or have made the decision that, like, this person is worth talking to.

And then they say something messed up that would fall, you know, maybe even toes a line between the microaggression, macroaggression line, right? How do you call them out without them getting defensive? Sure. I think one of the things that's important with difficult dialogues is to, one, to go into all difficult dialogues, having a strong sense of who you are, what's important to you, what your values are, what is worth it, what's not worth it. And so it's sort of like this, you know, promotion and prevention and this understanding that like, with anyone that I'm going to be in a relationship with, what is going to be where I draw the line in terms of how I stand up for myself and how I respond to certain things. And so I think going into those sorts of relationships is something that actually

a lot of people of color and people of other historically marginalized groups actually grapple with all the time. Like when I can speak for myself as a queer person of color, I know that when I meet white people or when I meet straight people, I'm not naive to think that at any given moment that something racist or homophobic, either overtly or subtly might occur. And so, you know, we're prepared for that, and to some degree, but, but there's also this sense of like, how will you react if that happens? And I think for many people, especially during, you know, this time, people have to be really intentional on how they want to react to certain things. I know lots of people who are in my circles are immediately like, no, if you oppress me in any way, I will not build with you and I don't want to continue my friendship or relationship with you. And then I have other people who might be very willing to have conversations with people. And I think all of those reactions are very valid because no one owes anyone anything. So a person of color, a person of historically marginalized group doesn't have to educate someone if they don't want to,

because they've had a lot of trauma and there is a lot of psychological distress that comes from these sorts of conversations. So going back to your original question, just this, how do you navigate these sorts of things? I think it's important to even just identify how you're feeling in that moment. I think a lot of times people like to argue with facts or what they perceive as facts and what they perceive as logic. But when you bring in your own experience and say, like, look, you know, what you're saying is really hurtful to me as a person of color. What you're saying is really hurtful to me as a queer person of color. And for the benefit of our relationship, I want to take a step back from you right now,

or I need you to take a step back right now because you're hurting my feelings. And again, this is something that you might say to somebody you're close to. If there's some stranger on the street starts saying something like that to you, you might not have any time for that and you shouldn't have any time for that. Let's assume that we're, we're like close friends and talking about, um, you know, just like being Brown in New York, right. As, as I have experienced being, right. And then I say something, um, like low key homophophobic but we're friends and you know that i could be better like where do you where do where do you go i guess i don't yeah where do you go from there sure i mean you know that's not just a role play that's

something that happens quite often so what i might say immediately is say what do you mean by that so like somebody says oh that's so gay or somebody somebody says, no homo. And then I say, what do you mean by that? Or if I say like pause or do one of those things, right? Yeah. Right. And then when I say, what do you mean by that? That's in my toolbox. That's something that I go to. And if we're friends, and if we're friends, that means that I trust that you do care about social justice issues. And maybe this is just a slip in that moment, that that person will say, oh, shit, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that. Because asking someone what they mean by that is giving them that opportunity to explain themselves. And for some people, they say things just because

they've been so socialized to say certain things. But when they're really asked to explain what they're trying to say, that's where, you know, they have to think about it, and sometimes even retract what they originally say, because they don't want to perpetuate something that that isn't actually who they are. What do you mean? I'm gonna keep that one in my pocket. What are some signs that it might be time to bail on a conversation? You've committed and you think that this person has an opportunity to grow, but maybe it's just Wednesday and you're both hungry and tired. What are so if you know that you don't have the time to do something because you're in a rush to go to a meeting or you need to eat something or you have to pick up your kids from school,

then maybe you know that this isn't exactly where you need to be right now. So setting your priorities and expectations and having any of these conversations. Sometimes it might even be helpful to put time limits on certain situations. To say to somebody like, look, I only have 10 minutes, but I do want to talk to you a little bit about what this is. And to use those 10 minutes as wisely as possible so that people know they can't just, you know, go off onto tangents and, you know, steer clear of whatever

the original issue was. But when you do have the time and you're in it, one of the things for you or for anyone to think about is, is this actually helping? Is this a conversation that I view as being helpful in any way, shape, or form? It's important to acknowledge that no one is going to learn everything in one conversation overnight. But realistically, you might be able to see that this is a conversation in which a person is able to be reflective, to receive and acknowledge anything that you're trying to say to them, that they are open to thinking about something, as opposed to them just waiting for you to stop talking so they can continue talking. And one of the things that I think about in these conversations is the word toxicity. Is this a toxic conversation? If the conversation is toxic, it might be best to step away as soon as possible. And I think that's totally valid and necessary. And as a psychologist, I will say is probably very good boundaries. There is no reason to keep on going back

to people that are going to hurt you. So to recap, if you're about to have a hard conversation with someone, that'll hit on microaggressions? I think one of the most important things of dealing with microaggressions and difficult dialogues is to do your own work, to do your work before you even get there, to read, to understand the lived experiences of people of historically marginalized groups, because that's one way that we can understand each other is to try to think outside of our own perspectives. I think the second thing that's important is to set realistic expectations of what you want from these conversations.

Setting these goals are important because oftentimes people want there to be immediate change and that just isn't going to happen. Hardly ever will you have a conversation where someone will say, oh, I 100% agree with you. You're right. Let me change my ways. But you might be able to offer them some insight. just to always be aware of yourself and your mental health when having these conversations. If we are fighting all the time, which in our hearts we want to do, but we're unable to rest, then we're not going to last very long in this world. And so this is why it's important for us to work together collectively, so that some people are fighting while some people are resting and other people will pick it up when those people who are fighting need to rest themselves. And so always think about, you know, what's best for you. If a conversation is going bad, it might be okay just to step away from that. But again, think

about your role and your positionality. Because if you're a person with privilege and you could fight a little bit longer, then do it. But if you're a person of a historically marginalized group, you know, we want you to be alive and we want you to be healthy in order to continue this fight towards justice. For more NPR Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We have an episode about how to talk about race with young kids, another on how to spot misinformation in the news, and a lot more. You can find those at npr.org slash lifekit. And if you love Life Kit and want more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org slash life kit newsletter. Hi, my name is Rachel from Pennsylvania, and I am a preschool teacher who's currently home with her preschooler during quarantine. My tip for parents is to try and keep a routine. Don't stress out if the routine's not the same one that you did the day before.

Sometimes your kids need something different from one day to the next. The important thing is to try and keep things regular for them. If you went on the walk outside on Monday, but on Tuesday it's raining, go walk inside. Try anything you can to try and keep them as routine, but as comfortable as possible. And it's okay to make mistakes. We also want to hear from you. What are you doing to cope right now? If you've got a good tip, leave us a voicemail with your name, number, and a greeting at 202-216-9823, or email us at lifekit at npr.org. This episode was produced by Andy Tegel. Megan Cain is the

managing producer. Beth Donovan is the senior editor. Our digital editor is Beck Harland, and our editorial assistant is Claire Schneider. I'm Andrew Limbaugh. Thanks for listening. This week on It's Been a Minute, I talk out the news with my Aunt Betty. I'm more concerned about the Black men that I love than anything in the world

because I just don't want to get that call. Also, parenting in the age of Black Lives Matter and the history of police reform. Listen and subscribe to It's Been a Minute from NPR. Consider This is a daily news podcast

and lately the news is about a big question. How much can one guy change? They want change. What will change look like for energy? Drill, baby, drill. Schools? Take the change. What will change look like for energy? Drill, baby, drill. Schools?

Take the Department of Education, close it. Health care? Better and less expensive. Follow coverage of a changing country. Promises made, promises kept. We're going to keep our promises. On Consider This, the afternoon news podcast from NPR. After the election, the economy feels like one big, huh?

Good thing there's the Indicator from Planet Money podcast. We take a different economic topic from the news every day and break it down in under 10 minutes. Topics like the home building shortage or the post-election crypto rally. Listen to the Indicator from Planet Money podcast from NPR and turn that, huh, into an, ah. The Indicator is a podcast where daily economic news is about what matters to you. Workers have been feeling the sting of inflation. So as a new administration promises action on the cost of living, taxes, and home prices. The S&P 500 biggest post-election day spike ever.

Follow all the big changes and what they mean for you. Make America affordable again. Listen to The Indicator, the daily economics podcast from NPR.