Life Kit - Navigating the coming out conversation — from both sides

Episode Date: June 25, 2020

Coming out looks different for everyone and is a continuous process. WNYC Studio's Nancy hosts talk with people about their coming out stories to learn what went well, what could have gone better, and what to say if someone comes out to you.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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You know, one of the reasons coming out is so tricky is because there's no one way to do it. Everyone's experience is a little different. You hear stories about people getting outright rejected by friends and family when they come out, or you hear about the person coming out and their dad has like baked a cake that says we always knew and they never have to talk about it again and it's all great and fine. And then there are those of us who have experiences somewhere in the middle, this sort of squishy center of coming out where everyone's trying to navigate the give and take of these very intimate conversations.

I'm Tobin Lo. And I'm Kathy Tu. And we are the co-hosts of the podcast Nancy. It's a storytelling podcast from WNYC Studios about all things LGBTQ. On our show, we talk about everything from dating to finding chosen family to going to queer summer camp. One of my favorite episodes. Yeah, we've done a lot.

And something that we talk a lot about on our show is, no surprise here, the experience of coming out as a queer or trans person. So we thought, even though Pride looks very different this year with the pandemic and protests against police brutality, people still come out. So we're teaming up with NPR's Live Kit, one of my favorite shows, to offer a little bit of advice on the topic. Wonder Twin powers activate! You make that reference all the time and I still don't know what it is. Okay, never mind. So Kathy, you and I each talk to a couple folks, sort of asking them their best pieces of advice for both sides of this conversation. I'm so excited to share with you, and I'm also thrilled to hear who you talk to.

Shall we jump in? Let's. Actually, before we jump in, let's say the big caveat to all of this. Yes, and that is, if you're thinking about coming out, you know when it's best. If you feel like it's unsafe for you to come out right now, if you're not ready, it's totally up to you to decide what's right. There's no pressure to do it on any type of timeline or in any sort of way. In person, by text, by email, carrier pigeon, it can be anything. So Tobin, now that we've got that out of the way, what's takeaway number one? Okay, takeaway number one is for if you're on the receiving end of a coming out conversation. So if someone is coming out to you, now in that moment

when someone shares their identity with you, there's a chance you may have misgivings or discomfort with the information. But remember, that moment of coming out is not about you. If somebody comes out to me and I'm feeling kind of like something bubbly, I'm kind of feeling uncomfortable, maybe I'm feeling some anger or maybe it's even disgust. I want anybody who's feeling those things to ask themselves why. Why are they feeling those? Where is that coming from? What is it stirring up within that person? And recognize that those emotions are not the responsibility of the person coming out, but your own responsibility to deal with. This lesson comes to us from Skylar Baylor. He's 23 years old. He was the first openly

transgender athlete to compete for an NCAA Division I men's team. And these days, he's an advocate focusing on transgender inclusion and education. He says it's important to recognize how vulnerable it is to come out. So that first conversation isn't a place to burden someone coming out with your feelings. Be a good listener and be open. Takeaway number two also comes from Skylar. He says if someone shares something with you about their gender identity, it is not an invitation for you to ask a bunch of invasive questions. What I mean by that is a lot of folks think that when I disclose my transits to them, I am opening up a conversation about my body, most specifically my genitals. And the reality is, I'm not.

Skylar says a good example of this takeaway comes from his own coming out story. Back in 2015, he wrote this big public Facebook post coming out as trans, and he shared it with everyone he knew. Well, except for one person. I blocked my grandmother from that Facebook post. I actually blocked her from my entire account because she is a Korean conservative Catholic immigrant. And I was very, very nervous about telling her.

And I wasn't ready at that moment to tell her. Was there sort of a worst case scenario in your mind? You mentioned maybe her breaking off the relationship. But how did you sort of imagine it might go? I think that it felt very likely, very possible that I would tell her, I was, and I would have my mom with me, but that we would tell her and she would be like, this is unacceptable. If you don't retract this, essentially, you're not welcome here anymore. Skyler also hadn't told his grandfather. So he decided the best way for him to come out to his grandparents was to write a letter explaining his identity and then to go to their house and read it to them.

I sat her down at the table and I read her, my grandfather, the letter. I was panicking. Like I was so nervous. And at the end, like I finished, I say, I love you. Oh my God, that's so intense. I know. It takes like real gumption to come out this way, like to your religious grandparents, especially.

Yeah. Wait, so what happens? My grandfather began to clap. And he's like, so you come out of closet now. And I was like, it just took me months to figure out what language to use to tell you this, but you already have all the language like knowing the words for coming out and everything like I didn't know that they even like were aware of that. And my grandmother's looking at me. She's got this super stern look and she's like, I knew that. Grandparents always know, or like most of the time they know. Absolutely. And Skylar says after he came out in the months following, his grandmother gave him space to share as much as he was comfortable. She wouldn't ask a bunch of invasive questions. What's his relationship with his grandmother like now?

Oh, she is still very much his grandma. They live in the same house. I go see them, we eat the same food. She asks me the same questions. She still asks me if I'm eating. The only difference is that she calls me gender-affirming pronouns, right? So she calls me he, him pronouns.

She always tells me how much of a great man I am. Like every time I call, she's like, oh, you are such great men. My parents also always ask if I'm meeting. Hard same. Such an Asian thing. Very Asian. But I kind of love it. Like his grandmother was still his grandmother, and she really lived this second takeaway. She didn't need to know a bunch of overly personal info. She just needed to know if he was eating. So now we know takeaway number one, don't pile your

feelings onto the person coming out. Takeaway number two, don't use coming out as an excuse to ask a bunch of invasive questions. Right. Now I have one. Takeaway number three. This one's for the person coming out. If or when you decide to come out, don't just say it and run away. It doesn't give anyone time to process this information. Yeah. I mean, some folks are going to be fine with it, but other people are going to need some time. Someone who learned that the hard way is Carmen Rios. She's a feminist writer and broadcaster. And all-around media maven. When Carmen decided to come out to her mom, she was a junior in college and home on a break.

And even though her mom has always been super accepting of Carmen's queer friends, Carmen just wasn't exactly sure how to say it. I couldn't totally speak with confidence because really, I was just, you know, a 20-year-old girl in college on her own for the first time in love with her best friend. So of course, I decided to tell her in the car when we were about 10, 15 minutes away from my friend's house that she was driving me to while I was home. I don't even remember if I said I'm attracted to women, I'm gay, I'm in love with my best friend, I don't know what to do about it. She was not quite prepared for that update. And it didn't go super well. I ended up sort of storming out of the car and, you know, dramatically getting another person to drive me home.

And my God, wow, she was pretty resistant to it. Yeah, I know what that's like. When I came out to my mom for the first time, it was pretty similar. My mom immigrated from Taiwan is very traditional. So I kind of knew telling her was going to be a big deal and most likely a fight. So when I called her, my defenses were up. I told her I was in a relationship with a girl and that was all there was to it. And she proceeded to yell and scream at me on the phone. So looking back on it now, I don't think I gave her much of a chance to have a dialogue with me about it. And maybe it's because I was too worried about disappointing her or making her upset. I was telling her something very vulnerable.

And what I needed in that moment was my mom to be vulnerable with me and sit with me in that vulnerability. But neither of us set up that conversation that way. I'm realizing that it's almost like our first attempts to tell our moms that we were gay kind of sound like teenagers asking for permission to do something they know they're not going to be allowed to do. Oh, totally. Yeah, it's like, I'm gay. And by the way, if you're not really cool with it, I'm gonna jump out of this car and like never talk to you about it again is basically the equivalent of like, I'm trying to go to this party. And I know

you're gonna say no, but I'm telling you and then I'm going to roll my eyes and like go run to, you know, run to my friend's house instead. Carmen eventually needed to come out to her mom again, but this time she really took time to talk to her. I know that this did not go well the first time, but there's this person in my life who you know about, but what you don't know about her is she's my partner and we've been dating for a long time and she means a lot to me. And I want to be able to talk about this with you and I want to be able to introduce her to you. And it was like my mom just sort of immediately, you know, melted away. Like my mom was the second time around was just so much more ready to engage in this dialogue. And for me, when I came out for the third time, I went into it with as much vulnerability as I could muster.

And we had a much better conversation and understanding of each other. I have to say this lesson hits home for me too, because even my parents, who were super supportive when I came out, they needed a lot of time to just talk it through and understand where I was coming from. And it was a long time before I really understood where they were coming from too in terms of having to adjust to how they saw me.

Yeah, so again, takeaway number three, if you're coming out, don't just say it and walk away because coming out can take a long time. Absolutely. I also just want to acknowledge that this process of coming out to someone can be mentally draining and exhausting and as every queer person knows you never just come out once. It happens again and again many times to the same person like I did with my mom. So just be kind to yourself as well through this whole thing.

You know, Tobes, I've said a little bit about my coming out, and I think it's your turn. Okay, putting me on blast. I see how it is. Share with everybody. Okay, so the first person I ever came out to was a friend of mine in high school. Hello? Hi. Hey! It's so nice to hear your voice. Same! Her name is Andrea Ruelas.

And Tobin and I know each other from growing up in the same little hometown in Northern California. And I believe we've known each other since first grade, maybe? I believe so, yeah. And Andrea, to me, is a great example of takeaway number four, which is if someone is coming out to you and you don't know how to act, look for role models. That might mean seeking out advice from someone who has had someone come out to them and found a way to be supportive. That might even mean looking to examples you've read about or seen on TV. That was certainly the case for when I came out to Andrea the summer after our senior year of high school.

The two of us had been hanging out a bunch. And all of these friends we were hanging out with started accusing us of dating. Oh my god, that's right. Right. I forgot about this. Because that's the only reason you would ever hang out with anybody that much is because you're romantically involved. Right. Because that's the only reason you would ever hang out with anybody that much is because you're romantically involved. Right.

But really, the reason I wanted to spend more time with Andrea was because I knew she was probably the safest person for me to come out to. I had my reasons, which I'll get to in a minute. But I just knew she was the one who I was going to tell first. So one night, we're in my car driving around town. And you were like, you know, there's something I kind of want to tell first. So one night we're in my car driving around town. And you were like, you know, there's something I kind of want to tell you. And it was, I don't feel like there was a big lead up to it. I can't imagine what it felt like for you. But I think just because we had been hanging out so much, it just felt like a another conversation another day.

And she was honestly really cool about it. She was kind of like, oh, yay, I have a new gay best friend. That's so sweet, Tobin. I know, it's nice. And the reason I knew Andrea would be cool was because at the time, she was obsessed with Will and Grace. She loved the episodes of Dawson's Creek where characters came out. And the other person I remember you being obsessed with, which was also sort of a sign was like you were a huge Margaret Cho fan. Oh my God, yes. That was my high school nickname. I was like, my kids are going to be so confused one day when they read my yearbook and they're like, who's Margaret? If you don't know, comedian Margaret Cho was raised in San Francisco. She talks very openly

about being around gay men and celebrating them. Her parents used to own a gay bookstore. So Margaret's comedy sort of provided a blueprint for Andrea's enthusiasm. She kind of like stepped into this role in my life of being a cheerleader. And I just wanted to be there for you for whatever that meant. I was like, whether or not, you know, you wanted it to be shopping because you were moving to the East Coast, too, on top of everything. And whether or not it was like, we need to shop for your fall sweater season, which I distinctly remember because we don't own sweaters here. Or do you want to tell other friends that we've been hanging out with? So, you know, maybe not the most serious example,

but I think Andrea embodies this takeaway. If you're not sure how to react when someone comes out to you, find someone who can show you the way. I love that. Yeah. And you know what else I love, Kathy? What? Surprises. I hate surprises, but go on. Well, do not worry. This one's not for you.

I wanted to surprise my friend Andrea with a special guest. Oh, wait, Andrea. I can imagine that. Sorry. Hold on one second. All right. I think we're ready to go. We're going to add this other person in. Hold on one second.

Hi, Margaret. I'm like about to cry. Are you serious? Hi. Can you hear me? Yes. Sorry about that. No worries at all. I can't like my whole

head is tingling. Oh, I love it. That's amazing. Margaret freaking Cho. I know. Love her. Margaret joined us not just to surprise my friend, but to offer a sort of a bonus takeaway, which is never respond to someone coming out by saying it's just a phase. Oh, God, don't do that, people. Don't do it. Yeah, Margaret says she's gotten so many responses like this, especially when she's come out as bisexual. Even her parents, who at one time owned that gay bookstore, had a tough time getting on board with her being bi. It was like they could only understand her being gay or straight. My mother would be like, oh no, that's no.

Even her friends kind of told her she'd get over it. They're like, well, you just haven't met the right. You'll find somebody. It's just that people don't take it seriously. But even so, Margaret's been out and proud about being bisexual, even when people tell her she's just in denial on her way to gay town or whatever. But I think bisexuality is a real place to be. I think it's a destination.

So yeah, just a little bonus takeaway from Margaret Cho. Don't ever say it's just a phase. You know, Tobin, we're really lucky to live at a time right now where there's more info out there about queer people. Like, I'm really happy to see that more people are aware of what it means to be non-binary, for example. Love to see it. But I think sometimes we need to make sure that we actually try to understand what that means. So takeaway number five is after someone comes out to you, supporting them isn't just loudly declaring your allyship. It's also about understanding what's important to them. Someone who knows this well is Ren Sanders. I'm a writer. I use they, them pronouns. I'm a Sagittarius sun, Taurus moon, and Pisces rising. I don't know if that's necessarily useful, but it's part of my

introduction. Ren came out to their parents as non-binary a couple years ago. And when they did so, they gave their parents a lot of information about what it means to be non-binary. And then at the end, I threw in, and what this means specifically for your lives and specifically with respect to your talking to me is that I would like for you to refer to me by these pronouns and to not call me your son anymore. Ren's parents took it well, except they didn't really do what Ren asked them to do.

Not that they didn't try, but it just didn't seem like enough. And what was almost more frustrating was that they often called me by they-them pronouns in front of other people as if it was like kind of a performative thing that they were like these woke parents. And that when we were at home and they were just like talking about me with each other, I would hear them use the wrong pronouns. And that felt like kind of more of an acute affront in a way. Cut to the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic.

Ren and their parents spent a few weeks quarantining together. And it's more apparent than ever that Ren's parents truly do not understand what it means for Ren to be non-binary. And that's their identity. So finally, Ren decided to confront them. I was coming out to them as frustrated. I wanted to just be like very clear that it's just patently unacceptable for them to call me by anything other than what I've asked them to call me. And that I knew like in the back of my mind that they are still going to make mistakes, like it's not going to change overnight. But in terms of communicating to them, it was important to me to like take, take this, like, pretty brutal stance

that it was just mandatory. It was only after this confrontation that Ren and their parents started to have an actual dialogue. Ren basically facilitated a conversation with their parents into understanding what it means to be non-binary. So I just kind of asked them, like, what do you think it means to be non-binary. So I just kind of asked them like, what do you think it means to be non-binary? I asked them, why do you think I asked for you to call me by they them pronouns? I asked

them, why do you think it's so important to me that you call me by the correct pronouns? And why do you think it hurts me so much when you don't? This is like takeaway five and a half, sort of. If the person you're coming out to just isn't understanding, facilitate their understanding with a series of questions that can lead them there. As we talk through those questions, I think they gradually begun to understand that calling me by they them pronouns is important, but it's important because it reflects their seeing me as someone who's growing and someone who's not necessarily the same boy

that they had sent off to college, so to speak. That it was more about recognizing that the pronouns were the tip of the iceberg, a very important tip, and yet not the whole thing. That they stood for this larger sense of becoming that I wanted them to witness and I wanted them to respect. I love that. It's almost like you can help them unpack their feelings

with these little breadcrumbs leading them along the way. Totally. But let me just reiterate, it's not your responsibility to do this, but it could be helpful if you find yourself hitting a wall. I think we learned some important takeaways today, Kathy. Yeah, should we list them off real quick? Number one, if someone comes out to you, don't make it about you. You're there to listen.

Number two, someone coming out to you about their identity is not an invitation to ask invasive questions. Number three, don't just come out and run away or shut down the conversation. Coming out can take time and multiple conversations. So when you're ready to do it, be vulnerable and make time for it. Number four, if you're not sure how to be supportive of someone coming out to you, look for role models. Number five, after someone comes out to you, take the time to truly understand what that means for them. I feel like this is a very Sesame Street way to end the episode, Tobin. Today's episode was brought to you by the letters LGBTQIA.

All right, let's get out of here. To hear more stories and conversations from us about the queer experience, subscribe to our podcast, Nancy. You can find us at nancypodcast.org. And you can also follow us on social media, Twitter, Instagram, you know the deal. We're at Nancy Podcast. For more NPR Life Kit, check out their other episodes. They've got one on how to make new friends, another on how to start therapy, and lots more.

You can find those at npr.org slash LifeKit. And if you love LifeKit and want more, subscribe to their newsletter at npr.org slash LifeKit newsletter. This episode was produced by Sam Leeds and Andy Tegel. Megan Cain is the managing producer. Beth Donovan is the senior editor. The digital editor is Beck Harlan, and the editorial assistant is Claire Schneider. I'm Kathy Tu. And I'm Tobin Lo. Thanks for listening. Actress Tracee Ellis Ross is used to people talking about her age a lot, and she's okay with whatever people say. I'm 47 years old and I'm the most comfortable in my skin I've ever been. When we go back to being 22, no thank you. The Black-ish star on Confronting an Ageist World.

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