Life Kit - Talking With Kids About Anti-Asian Racism

Episode Date: March 27, 2021

Navigating conversations with kids around race and racism can be tricky. Here's what to think about while talking to kids about the rise in anti-Asian attacks and the shootings in Atlanta earlier this month.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is NPR's Life Kit. I'm Adi Kornish. The rise in anti-Asian hate incidents over the past year, it's prompted this call for Americans to talk about racism and discrimination with their friends and parents and their kids. And these are conversations made even more difficult and, frankly, more urgent after shootings earlier this month in Atlanta. Now, if you're looking for ways into those conversations, our next two guests may be able to help. Nicole Chung is an author and advice columnist for Slate.

Christine Ko is a neuroscientist and co-authored a book on parenting. And we spoke with them for NPR's All Things Considered. We wanted to share our conversation with LifeKids listeners, so here it is. Nicole, I was hoping to start with you because you write an advice column at Slate. What are two tips you would give to parents who want to start a dialogue around these issues, racism or discrimination or inclusivity. One thing I do is like hearken back to past conversations. Like I'm always saying, remember when we talked about this, like this particular issue, like something else has happened. I want to talk to you about it. Like this is related to like this, this other thing that we talked about so that they're always, I'm trying to teach them to make those connections themselves. And the other big thing is just to like, ask them

what they have noticed, what they have experienced, like have they witnessed at school or out in the world? Have they seen things that maybe we, as their parents haven't been present for or have missed something that's stuck in their mind? I mean, I've been really surprised sometimes by all the things my kids have encountered when they're not with me sometimes at school. And then space. You know, let your kid talk. Let there be some awkward silence, because if you just wait, something unexpected is probably going to come up. And so that's so crucial. But you have to ask. Yeah. I mean, you, you can open it up. I, I really recommend doing this, um, you know, sort of like in a safe environment, like, you know, bedtime when it's kind of dark and you don't have to look at each other and you can just talk. And, um, I've found that's a really, really good way, uh, to have a conversation or just, you know, in a low pressure

way where you're not looking at each other. Like you could be, my kids and I talk a lot while we're cooking or baking or, you know, in the car, that kind of thing. Nicole, you actually had a question, right, from a parent earlier this month whose child had been suspended for bullying an Asian classmate. Can you talk about how you tried to answer their question? You know, I noticed that the framing of the question, what immediately stood out to me was the parents' main focus seemed to be, how do I punish this? Like, literally, how do I, what is the appropriate punishment for racism? And of course, I wanted to point out to them that, you know, not that I think there should be no consequences, of course, for racist bullying, but that, in fact, their student had already been suspended and might be expelled for this.

And the more important conversation, I thought a way to reframe it would be, you know, how are you actually going to talk with them? And it's really their thinking that you want to change. It's this biased thinking. It's this lack of compassion for their Asian classmate that they not only bullied, but tried to get other kids to join in bullying. I basically said no amount of punishment is really going to make a child or anyone less prejudiced. What you actually have to do is do that hard work, have those conversations with them, explain why anti-Asian racism is wrong and coronavirus scapegoating in particular, and try to link this to, you know, give them as much historical context as you can and make them understand

this makes them part of a legacy they don't want to be part of, right? And so really, I thought the answer should just be more focused on how do you actually have this conversation? How do you do more active anti-racist parenting, as opposed to focusing on punishment or thinking that if we just don't model racism overtly, that our kids will just naturally get it, right? Right. I want to talk about the idea of blended households. You both come from blended families. And Christine, starting with your story, you're Asian American and raising two mixed race children. Your husband is white. I mean, how do you go about talking about these kinds of events?

Yeah, I mean, my kids, when they're with their dad, they could pass as white. And when they're with me, then people might look at them and think, oh, okay, you know, maybe they could be part Asian. So I know that at the beginning of the pandemic, I felt very self-conscious, especially as, you know, all of this sort of the, the terrible things that were being said by the administration and all of the scapegoating was happening. And I just felt like, wow, if I go out with my kids, you know, they may be more of a target. So I think that, you know, it's always been about talking to my kids about being aware, you need to be aware of your surroundings, not in a way not to scare them. But I think it's a

reality that kids need to know about being safe about, you know, keeping their eyes up in the world. We have a strict my younger one doesn't have a phone yet. But we have a strict like no walking and having your head down in your phone policy. You know, you always have to keep your eyes up and just be aware of what's going around. Nicole, I understand you're ethnically Korean and were adopted by white parents because you wrote about this in a piece for Time where you said that your parents thought of themselves as colorblind. What advice can you give to families who are in this situation? Maybe their child is an Asian American adoptee, or as the child in that kind of family who's trying to explain to family members who don't get it. I was thinking about this while Christine was speaking, just about how

she talks about this with her kids. And that goes both ways. My adoptive parents passed, but when they were alive alive I often found myself in this position of either trying to explain or sort of translate not the whole Asian American experience because I'm one person and I could not do that right but like trying to sort of explain and translate like to them really like what I experienced how I experienced this country as a Korean American and they did they did kind of always struggle you know to see me as a as a Korean American. And they did, they did kind of always struggle, you know, to see me as a, as a Korean, as an Asian American woman. At the time they adopted me, especially, you know, the standard line was just basically assimilate her. I mean, that's literally what

the adoption judge told them, assimilate her, you'll be fine. Like no recommended reading, no recommended classes. And so I really grew up, I wouldn't say like I necessarily grew up colorblind because I don't believe I was any more than I believe most people are, but certainly I had no language for talking about race and racism. And of course, like I started experiencing racism from a very young age. I grew up in a really white community, heard my first slur at the age of seven. So I always knew from a young age that my race was, in fact, relevant to my lived experience and would be throughout my life. And it was just really a process starting much more in my teens and 20s, I think, than when I was a young child

of trying to kind of get my white adoptive family to sort of see that reality and acknowledge it, even though, of course, they could not fully understand, not having experienced it. We have a tendency in adoption nowadays to lean into the really fun cultural exploration and acknowledgement, and I think that's all great. I think it is a lot harder to have these conversations with our kids about racism in this country,

about white privilege, and I think those are the discussions that adoptive families also have to be willing to have. We know statistically a lot of white families aren't having these discussions, but when you are raising Asian American kids right now or kids of color at all, you have to be able to have those discussions and really be prepared to be your kids' first best ally in these situations. I saw you nodding a bit, Christine. Did you want to add something there? Well, I was just thinking as Nicole was talking

about how for a long time, through most of my childhood, I felt very deeply uncomfortable associating with other Asian kids because I felt actually unsafe. And so to think about that framework, just because I felt like if there were more to think about that framework, you know, just because I felt like if there were more of us together, we were a bigger target, you know, which is a really terrible, terrible way to, you know, lose your connection with a culture and a community that is so important. So, yeah, I guess, you know, I think these conversations are obviously, you know, I just received some outreach about talking to a parent group and, you know, I think these conversations are obviously, you know, I just received some outreach about talking to a parent group. And, you know, they were saying, we don't understand how to have these uncomfortable conversations. And my response is kind of like, it's high time to get uncomfortable, we have to get uncomfortable, we have to have these conversations. And, you know, honestly, if, you know, this is not to be too hard lined about it, but, you know, if you're a white parent and you are feeling like the conversation is uncomfortable

for you, just sort of tap into your empathy and think about how uncomfortable it is to be a person of color and feel like you have a target on your back or to feel the serious emotional labor of reliving racial aggressions and having very real safety concerns every time, you know, you see another, yet another incident in the news. Well, Christine Ko, thank you so much for speaking with us. This was so delightful. Thank you for making the space for this conversation. I truly appreciate it. And Nicole Chung, thank you for your time and advice. Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here with you both.

This conversation originally aired on NPR's All Things Considered. It was produced by Anna Sirianni with support from Becky Sullivan and edited by Sarah Handel. For more episodes of LifeKit, go to npr.org slash LifeKit. We have episodes on all sorts of parenting topics, including one about how to talk to kids when the news is scary. And if you love LifeKit and you want more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org slash LifeKit newsletter. Claire Lombardo and Beck Harlan are LifeKit's digital editors. Megan Cain is the managing producer. Beth Donovan is our senior editor.

And Claire Marie Schneider is our editorial assistant. I'm Audie Cornish. Thank you for listening.