Life Kit - What You Can (And Can't) Do After The Vaccine

Episode Date: March 2, 2021

In this episode, NPR's Sam Sanders talks with Short Wave host Maddie Sofia for answers to listener questions about the vaccine. (Here's the story we reference about improving your face mask protection: https://n.pr/2MCba0l.)Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey y'all, Sam Sanders here. So I host an NPR show called It's Been a Minute, and my friends over at LifeKit thought you all might appreciate a recent episode I did all about answering vaccine questions. For those of you who are already fans of my show, you know that quite often my Aunt Betty kicks off the episodes, and she recently got her second vaccine shot, so she is now fully vaccinated against the coronavirus. So before we answer your questions about the vaccine, let's start with my Aunt Betty's vaccine story. Betty, hi. Hi, Sam.

How are you? I am for a snowy day in Delaware. I'm very well. You, Aunt Betty, are fully vaccinated against coronavirus. Hooray, hooray, hooray. Yes, I am. Thank God for that. I got my first shot about a month ago and my second shot Monday of this week. Okay. And then describe the scene for you getting the shots.

How'd you do it? Well, the first shot was at the DMV and it was just like a mad genius had set it up because it worked like clockwork. So you kind of drove up, and they routed you to a parking area. Then they would just come through and send you to another parking area. And then when you moved again, you went through a checkpoint where they took your paperwork and checked your ID and asked you a few questions about your health. The next stop was a shop. So I rolled my

window down and got a shot and kept rolling. They did ask me to go to another holding area for 15 minutes when medical staff just walked around to see if you were okay. And you were okay? Okay, I was fine. Okay. What advice would you give for people who haven't gotten the vaccine yet and may soon be able to do it. Do it. It's worth it. I mean, save your life or save yourself from suffering. I know people who've died from it. You know a few folks that have died from it. Yeah. I do. Yeah. They suffered greatly before they died. So I don't wish that on people. Yeah. Well, you know, one of the details that you haven't said yet about your vaccine story is that

you heard about how to get it, where to get it from Zoom church. Is that what you told me? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because I'm not, I haven't gone back to church yet. So I'm still enjoying services online. And so my pastor is very civic minded.

And so he talked about this. And I was, as soon as the service was over, I was like at the house, keys in hand, heading to the DMV to get my shot. So I wouldn't have known about it if I hadn't been online listening to him. You know what the moral of this story is, Betty? What is the moral of the story? I need to go to church. You didn't need a story to tell you that. Oh, we got to go to break.

You're fading. Well, on that note, I'm glad you're vaccinated. Can't wait to get mine. As you usually do, kick off the show with your iconic catchphrase. All right, let's start the show. That sounded very vaccinated. I like it. Good. That sounded very vaccinated. I like it. Everybody wants one and pretty much everybody needs a vaccine for the novel coronavirus.

But people still have questions about how it all works. And we are all wondering when things can return to normal as more and more people get the vaccine every day. So to guide us through everything, we turned to an old friend of the show. She's actually helped us out with coronavirus related questions before. My dear friend, Maddie Safaya, how are you? Welcome back to the show. I'm doing well, Sam. How are you, buddy? I'm good. I feel like the last time we had you on seems like forever ago. But I think my biggest question with coronavirus was whether I could still pet other people's dogs.

Oh, that's interesting. That's an interesting version of that story because it was about whether or not you could kiss them on the mouth is how I remember it. That is Maddie Safaya. She is the host of NPR's daily science podcast, Shortwave. I remember you asking me if you could kiss them. Pet them, maybe. Yeah, but it came into play. You're kissing stranger dogs on the mouth. Not too often. Not too often. I promise you. Over the past few weeks, we have asked you,

our listeners, to send in your questions about the vaccine. We're going to answer some of those now, but before we get to those, I first had to ask Maddie about something else. This is my best Seinfeld voice. What is the deal with double masking? Honestly, it was pretty good. I was scared for you and then I thought it went pretty well. Yeah. All right. All right. So for a while now, we've known that like wearing a mask can protect you and the people around you, right? We've known that for a while. But I think recently there's been a lot more interest in this question of double masking. And so some folks at the CDC actually did some experiments around this. And it turns out that double masking or other modifications that just make the mask fit better really do make a difference. So it's all about trying to eliminate those little gaps around your chin and your nose and your cheeks. Now, Sam, before I get into it, you have to keep in mind that these experiments were done in a lab on some creepy looking CDC dummies. I don't know where they got

them. Not on like actual people making their way through the real world, but the results were still pretty convincing. So I feel comfortable talking about it. Okay. Okay. Okay. So there are a bunch of different ways to make your mask fit better. And it's kind of hard to visualize without seeing it. So, you know, don't worry about taking notes or anything right now. We have resources for you to look at. Also, if you don't get it all on the first time, play this episode again, like four or five times, because that's really good us too. Yeah. And from different devices, download it on different devices and listen to it a bunch. No, but also we will include a link to a special NPR guide on improving mask fit. Has a bunch of helpful pictures and such. That'll be

in the, what's the word? Episode notes. Episode notes. Yes. All right. With that, go ahead, Maddie. So first up, they looked at how to improve medical or surgical masks. So not like the big, intense respirator masks or N95 masks. I mean, just the, you know, like kind of thin, often they're blue surgical masks. I got the blue ones. You know, you know, Sam. These are the Grey's Anatomy masks. I was just about to say, you know it from Grey's Anatomy, because for some reason, you are watching that show in the year 2021.

Yes. For Shonda. I'm doing it for Shonda. Love her. So those have great filtration, but they don't fit very tightly on your face. Right. And so the particles can kind of sneak through those little gaps around your cheeks or your nose. So the researchers found that if you added a cloth mask over top of that surgical mask, that improves the fit and increases protection from those little tiny aerosols we worry about quite a bit. So I did this last week, Maddie, and I was a little worried at first because I've had the blue ones for a little bit. And I was like, if I put one of my cloth ones on top of it, will I be able to breathe? Yes. But I was able to breathe. I was about to say, you're here now, alive, breathing fine. Yeah, it is. You just have to breathe? Yes. But I was able to breathe. I was about to say you're here now alive, breathing fine. Yeah. Yeah, it is. You just have to make sure that none of these alterations

like get your nose peeking out or your mouth. So so anytime you're trying to refit your mask, you just have to make sure when you're trying to do this, you just have that nose and that mouth covered really well. And that's kind of the name of the game. OK. All right. Mass check. Question number two. And this came to us from a lot of listeners. If folks are able to get the vaccine, can they still carry and transmit coronavirus to other people? OK, so let's start off with what we know for sure. Right. We know that the vaccines that are authorized in the U.S. do an excellent job of preventing symptoms of COVID, including those really scary, severe symptoms. And let's just take a moment here on the show to acknowledge how monumental that is. I mean, that means fewer cases that result in

hospitalizations, finally giving our health care workers a break. That means less people dying every day. I mean, that in itself is huge. And that's what the vaccines were designed and tested to do. So as far as whether or not a less likely to have the virus in their body at all, or they carry less virus. So that's all very good news. But we still don't have enough data to say for sure that the vaccine cuts down on transmission or by how much. So for now, we just kind of have to wait, which means that vaccinated folks should still mask up when they're interacting with people outside their household, especially if those people are unvaccinated. If we know that the vaccine will protect you from getting severe symptoms, most likely, is it safe for two people who are fully vaccinated to hug or like hang out in the same room? Yeah. Okay. So here's what I will say

about this. Because we don't know for sure if vaccinated people can carry the virus, those vaccinated people just need to think about who else they are interacting with, right? So if you are living at home with somebody who is severely immunocompromised, who isn't vaccinated, you would treat the situation differently than if you lived by yourself, right? But if you are two vaccinated people, maybe you're even wearing masks for that added layer of risk reduction, I think you've reduced risk enough, you know, to hug it out, especially if you are two people that don't have, like, close contact with other people. I am a big proponent of risk reduction that still allows us to have some of our humanity, right? Permission to hug requested. Permission to hug requested. You know, two vaccinated people hugging, I would argue, is one of those situations. People will argue with me, but I would say so. You know, there are so many headlines.

It seems like every day there's a new variant of the coronavirus. Who knows where they're coming from? How effective is the vaccine against other and newer variants of coronavirus? So this is a great question. Another great question. Another stumper. You know, I wish your listeners would throw me a couple of easy ones once in a while, but, you know, they're too good. How do you spell coronavirus? Let's do that. So what I would say is this is another situation where things are developing, right? We didn't know about these variants like a month or two ago, but there's some data that suggests that the vaccine might not work as well for a few of those variants. But at this point, you know, most of the experts that

we're talking to say they will still work, right? Like that's the beauty of having vaccines that are super, super effective, that even if they don't work as well against one variant, they will still provide protection. In fact, public health officials are saying that the best way to prevent super effective that even if they don't work as well against one variant, they will still provide protection. In fact, public health officials are saying that the best way to prevent these variants from really taking off in the U.S. is by having as many people vaccinated as possible. So for now, with the variants that we're seeing in the U.S., it looks like the vaccines will work well on most of them and still provide some protection on the others, which is good news. All right. As more and more people in my circles get the vaccine, I'm starting to hear them talk

to me about side effects. And a few folks I know said first dose was fine. Second dose, I was like knocked out for a day or two. What in general are the side effects of the vaccine? Yeah, this is a great question. I mean, I'm just really glad we're talking about side effects because I think it's important to talk about them and be transparent. So all vaccines can cause side effects, right? And that's because vaccines work by kickstarting your immune system similar to what would happen with a natural infection. So if you do get side effects, like you get a little bit of swelling from the shot or you get a mild fever, that is just your immune system doing exactly what we want it to do. Now, rarely vaccines do cause more serious reactions like allergic reactions,

for example. So it's really important to talk about allergies with your doctor before getting the vaccine. Or if you get the shot and swelling gets worse after a day, or if your other symptoms are getting more severe, lasting more than a few days, you should call the doctor. But the overwhelming majority of the time, Sam, for the two vaccines that are authorized for use in the U.S., the most common symptoms are pain at that site of injection, swelling, as well as fevers, chills, aches, feeling tired. And some people experience very little of those symptoms. And some feel pretty uncomfortable, like you said, for a few days, especially after that second shot. Because that first shot, your immune system's like, oh,

hey, what's up? What's up? What's going on? And that second shot was like, oh, you again. It's like, oh, you want to move in now. Watch this. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Like now you're trying to... So that is really your immune system really being kicked Oh, my goodness. Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I think it's important to be transparent about vaccine side effects, but also to remind people, like for the overwhelming majority, this is not even as close to being as bad as a bad case of COVID. All right. Next question for you. Let's say your grandparent has been vaccinated, but you, a younger person, have not. Can you still see them? And is this scenario a little bit safer for the more vulnerable person? Okay. So this is a good one because it's all about assessing levels of risk. And like I said, you know, risk is not an all or nothing scenario. And there's a lot to work through to make these types of decisions. So let's walk through this example. So you've decided you really, really want to see your grandparent, right? Your grandparent has been vaccinated.

So you've cut the risk of them getting that bad case of COVID down quite a bit. And that's big, right? You know, before going, I would probably try to quarantine for a while myself, especially if they are in a nursing home, because I don't want to bring COVID into that facility because I'm not just going to interact with my grandparent. You know, if they're in their own house, maybe that's a different story. So that's all like before the visit. And then on the day of the visit, one thing I would leave your audience with is when you're seeing anybody, like the thing to think about is how do I cut down on the amount

of air I am sharing with people, right? That's the big, if you can carry that one thing in your head, that's the biggest thing because most transmission happens in close contact through the air, not through necessarily like groceries or stuff like that. So that's important to keep in mind. So if I'm going over to my grandmother's, and she makes me call her that, Sam, by the way, the full grandmother, she demands respect, she will not be called grandma. I would be wearing a well-fitted mask like we talked about. And if I could, and this is a huge one, I would try to take it outside if I could. If not, I would want to get fresh air circulating in the room because fresh air circulation is one of the best things you can do if you have to be indoors. And then the last thing to think about is time, right? It's not just proximity. It's also time. So I'd make the visit pretty short, too. I mean, the CDC suggests less than 15 minutes if you're indoors, but that's variable. But it's grandmother. Yeah, yes.

It is, it is. So it's just about keeping that visit as short as you can. And then after the visit, like I said, same thing as going in. I'd probably quarantine for a bit just to make sure if I got it, you know, somehow from being out and about, I don't spread it. Gotcha, gotcha. We are seeing millions of Americans getting the vaccine, which sounds good and feels good. But when do we know that we're there? Like what percentage of the population needs to be vaccinated before you can have herd immunity? Yeah. So, okay. This is unsurprisingly another complicated one. So. Complicated. Avril Lavigne over here. Avril Lavigne. Oh my God. You

know what? I'll take it. I'm not mad at that. I can, I mean, it's not my first choice, but it's not my last. Okay. Okay. Okay. So if you're not familiar with this term, herd immunity happens after enough people have been infected or vaccinated until there's essentially nowhere for the virus to go. There's not enough susceptible people left for coronavirus to infect. So there aren't those like massive outbreaks. But there isn't one straightforward number to reach herd immunity. It changes based on a lot of things. The biggest one probably is the germ itself. So for this coronavirus, some public health officials have thrown around that like 70 to 85 percent of people would need to be vaccinated or infected to have the level of immunity that

we would need. And the difficulty in knowing the answer to your question, Sam, like when do we reach that number, is that we don't actually even know how many people have gotten the coronavirus, you know, realistically. There's a lot of infections that we don't catch for multiple reasons. There's a lot of people that have asymptomatic infections, you know, that kind of stuff. So that complicates it. We also don't know how long immunity lasts. So for some diseases, you get it once and you're protected for years or your lifetime. And that's probably not what's going to happen with this one. And then, you know, we've got those variants on the scene.

You've heard of those variants. So those could play a role here, too. So there's a scenario in which this first round of vaccine that folks get, first two rounds, they'll have to be more vaccine shots down the road? I mean, there's the potential for that. It would be kind of like a booster situation, perhaps. We don't really know yet. Like I said, right now, it looks like our vaccines are working really well. But I know that there are some vaccine companies that are looking into developing more vaccines that would basically be kind of a booster situation. So I think, you know, Sam, when we ask, like, when can we reach herd immunity? When can things go back to

normal? You know, I would argue and people would argue with me again, that herd immunity might not be a reality for this virus. Like some people might achieve... No, no, no, no, it's not that bad. Some places might achieve something close to it. But this is a global pandemic, right? Like viruses travel with people who travel. So real herd immunity, you know, global herd immunity would be tough to achieve. And so, you know, I think we have to learn how to live with this virus to be realistic. You know, the coronavirus will probably be around to some degree for a long time. And so I think focusing on what we can do, you know, getting vaccinated if you can, continue masking up, physically distancing, you know, reducing your

risk as much as you can. The more we do those things right now, the faster we will get to our new normal, which, Sam, I'm happy to tell you, will be much, much, much more livable than where we are now. Last big picture question for you, Maddie. Like a lot of the answers around these questions are complicated and nuanced and data and information will change over time as scientists learn more things. But is there any kind of certainty yet or any kind of forecasting on the uncertainty horizon about what our springs and summers might look like regarding the vaccine? Can you forecast what the next few months might feel like in any way? Yeah, I mean, it's really tough. I wish I could give you a better idea of this. What I will say is that I understand the question. And it's something that I sit with, you know, every single day. It's really hard, right? Like not to know when this thing is going to be over, like when things are going to feel better. And what I would say is that these vaccines are going to make

a huge difference. You know, when I said we're not going to be coronavirus free, that doesn't mean that it's going to be in our face like this all the time. I mean, it could be something similar to the flu where it still impacts our lives, but we have systems to live with it. And if these vaccines are rolled out quickly and equitably, I've heard public health officials talking about this fall or maybe more at the end of the year, like really feeling a lot more of a return to normal, even if it's not totally back to normal.

But I think more importantly than predicting when it will happen is just, you know, keeping the faith that it will happen, like knowing that this will happen, we will return to this newish normal and, and that we have agency, you know, and that we have a say in this. So, so that's kind of what's getting me through. Okay. Okay. So then in that, in that normal-ish, normal-esque fall, what's the first thing you're going to do in that new normal that you can't do now? I don't know, Sam. Oh, I don't know. I probably, honestly, I'll probably go see my parents. It would be nice to see my parents. I might also, I've never been to the Grand Canyon. I've been thinking about maybe trying to do a little

traveling, do a little hiking. What are you what are you gonna do sam you know what i miss what and what i realized i miss so much it is um gathering with friends and eating and i want like a nice loungy saturday where we're either potlucking or the best cook is cooking and like 10 or 12 of us just like hang out for a few hours and eat and drink together. I miss that so much. I miss being really stressed before people came over my house. You know what I mean? Like I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward. You know what I miss the most? And this is so weird. I miss that weird, stressful feeling of when you say to all your friends, come over around 8, we'll do stuff, and then no one gets there until 8.30. That half hour of anxiety before your friends show up for the party, I miss that.

I know. Isn't it amazing that we can miss different types of nervous, you know? Yes. Yes. Thanks again to Maddie Sophia. She is the host of NPR's Daily Science Podcast Shortwave. Yes, NPR

has a Daily Science Podcast. Go check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Alright, this week It's Been a Minute was produced by Janae West, Andrea Gutierrez, and Sylvie Douglas. Our intern is Liam McBain. Our fearless editor is Jordana Hochman.

Our director of programming is Steve Nelson. And our big boss is NPR's senior VP of programming, Anya Grundman. Listeners, till next time, be good to yourselves. I'm Sam Sanders. We'll talk soon. The news is about more than what just happened. You need to know why it happened, who made it happen, how it's felt in the communities you care about. NPR's daily news podcast, Consider This, gives you all of that, with context, backstory, and analysis on a single topic every weekday. It's not just information, it's what the news means.

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