Live Free with Josh Howerton - Are Christians Commanded to Support the State of Israel? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

Is this the end of the world? How should Christians view Israel, prophecy, and the second coming of Jesus? In this episode, Pastors Josh Howerton, Carlos Erazo, and guest theologian Paul Cunningham unpack powerful themes from Romans 11, Revelation, and 1 Corinthians. The conversation ranges from spiritual mysteries to prophecy fulfillment, including various eschatological views like preterism, premillennialism, and idealism. You’ll hear deep, Spirit-filled reflections on how God’s sovereignty unfolded in history—and how His promises to Israel still matter today. But beyond the theology, the team brings it home: the return of Christ should stir urgency, humility, and action in our lives. Whether you’re exploring prophecy, struggling with what to believe, or leading others in discussion, this episode reminds us that while we don’t know the exact time, we do know our mission. 👍 Like, Comment, & Subscribe for more life-changing podcasts! 🔔 Turn on notifications so you never miss an update! 📝 SHOW NOTES Subscribe now to receive the show notes directly in your inbox with each new episode. These notes are filled with key insights and scripture to help you reflect and grow deeper in your faith – https://lakepointe.church/shownotes 👇 DON’T MISS OUT! Discipleship happens through relationships. Click the link to find your Life Group today! https://lakepointe.church/groups/ ⛪ ABOUT LAKEPOINTE CHURCH: We believe that Lakepointe is a movement for all people to Know God, Find Freedom, Discover their Calling, and Make a Difference. With 6 DFW locations and programs for all ages, there's something for everyone. 🤝 Support this ministry and help us reach more people with the Gospel: https://lakepointe.church/give STAY CONNECTED: 🌐 Website: https://lakepointe.church/ 👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lpconnect/ 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lpconnect 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lakepointechurch 🎧 LISTEN ON THE GO! ▶️ Live Free on Spotify / https://open.spotify.com/show/353ryGdZNlebaiqkCcy3Yc ▶️ Live Free on Apple Podcasts / https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/live-free-with-josh-howerton/id1669321198

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the Word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ.

Thanks for tuning in. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free Podcast. My name is Carlos Erasm. I'm here with Bester Josh Howardson. Carlos, what's that thing on your head?

Man, do you show up my new hat? We're going to talk about the End Times. People are like, what is going on right now? I'm wondering the same thing. It's going to be great. We're going to talk End Times, Return of Christ. Politics? Politics, Israel, Tucker Carlson.

Okay, Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz, all the things. So you need one of these. Yeah, you can have your tinfoil hat on when you're talking about the return of Christ. Is this the new Lake Point merch? Is that what it is? Yeah, we'll stick a logo on that sucker. Coming soon. That's great, man.

All proceeds to go to four missions specifically to reaching the Jewish people. Each one is custom shape, no additions in terms of repeating things. Exactly. Each one is its own custom shape. It's going to be a great episode. Very different. Hey. Wait, I'm going to take this off.

We'll put them back on when we start talking Return of Christ. In times. Josh, would you like to introduce our guest today? Bishop Paul Cunningham. First of all, let me just say it's going to be back. Oh, yeah, welcome back, Grant. Carlos forgot I was gone. No, no.

I get to see you on a regular basis, so welcome back. And happy birthday. Thank you. Happy birthday. Yes, happy 37th birthday. Man, thank you. That's lying as a sin. He meant give or take a few years.

Give her take five years. Forty-two. Yeah. Forty-two this year. Well, I was speaking up of your inner spirit. Absolutely, man. Being renewed day by day. How do you feel in your 42?

42. I feel one day older than 41. One day wiser? One day, I hope. I hope. So here's who Paul Cunningham is with us. Paul is, he's our resident, he's our theologian in residence. What's your official job title right now?

You've had like four. I've had four or so. Right now is lead pastor of staff. And so part of my responsibility is our theology to help train our staff and residents, create some resources, really anything I'm needed to do. Theologian and Residence. Man, anytime I have a... We call them the theologue.

There's no pressure with that title either when you're called theologian and residence or things like that. Every time I have a Bible question, I call Paul. I call Paul. I call my friend Paul. Paul writes my sermons. That's not true. That's not true. I have Paul. I'm going to get aggregated on social media now.

That is not true. Is that good? Paul is that good? Oh, my gosh. Man, thank you guys for subscribing, joining, liking, commenting. Good transition, Carlos. You're welcome. I learned from you.

And thank you for tagging us on social media. I love every time when people tag us whenever an episode drops. And also, the people are downloading the show notes. We've surpassed officially now over a thousand downloads for show notes. That's great, man. This is where, man, especially this episode, by the way, this is, you know, really important. Obviously, when people tune in, it's one thing to hear it. Another thing is for you to chew on the content.

That's exactly right. And there will be a lot of stuff that we're going to be sharing today that's going to be really important. So everything that we will discuss, if people are taking notes, I know we have a lot of people joining groups and coming together to listen to the pod. This is for you. Wait, Carlos, can I tease an idea that we're considering

and tell them to respond? Please. Okay, this is for real, every platform, if you can respond to if this idea, if you would do this idea. So here's something that we're considering, no problem. So what you guys know, what's happening right now is people are organically, they're listening to the sermon, and then they'll listen to Live Free, the DeeperDop podcast. Then they're just,

we haven't even planned this. They're just like spontaneously getting in groups, especially dudes, like getting in groups, Starbucks before work or diners, like we keep showing these pictures that people are saying, keep sending those, by the way. And then we'll shout out your group. And they're getting in and then they're all sharing what did God show you during the, in the Bible teaching. Then they're confessing sin, talking about like, okay, how am I going to apply it in my life and family? Then they pray for each other and encourage each other. So here's what we're considering. You guys tell us if it's something we should move on. We're considering potentially just vertically aligning a group's option at Lake Point where it's like, we just plan it. Like, hey man, listen to

the sermon, listen to live free. We would potentially create an aligned Bible reading plan that synced with what was being taught through the year. And then reverse engineering the show notes from being like discipleship questions for people to process. And then potentially no promises, like just building an app that puts it all right there.

Like, boom, I can just grab it. So good idea, bad idea. If it sounds like a win, y'all tell us. That's good. Let us know in the comment section. We would love to hear from you. And for people that are asking, okay, how do I get the show notes?

You can go to Lake Point. That church slash show notes. And man, you're going to get all the info. Today's going to be a good one. Is that the only way to get them? You can go to the link in the description on the YouTube video. You can go to this or go to the website, like point at church slash show notes.

And there'll be a little something on the screen here if you're joining on YouTube. Hey, we also have to celebrate this last weekend. We had a big event happening in the life of our church. This last weekend. This last weekend. We had, man, we had a lot of events happening. We had a lot of events.

But, man, we just had a lot of events. But, man, we just had. student camp. Oh, of course. So we have to celebrate that. Man, it was over a thousand high school students go to Gloriata. And I have not. Bro, there are 1,500 people at just high school camp. So I got a, I got a call Knight Clayton King. Shout out Clayton King. Breach the Gospel, 292 students gave their lives to Christ that one night. And one night. One night. And then, dang, man, I should have, I would have brought, we could have shown a clip. Tons of students. exploring calling to ministry on their lives. All in, man. All in. It was awesome.

Amazing. I love camp because camp is where God does a lot of work in a little time. Oh my gosh. And just to see that and the fact that we've been praying for that, some parents been praying that for years. And then to finally see that come to fruition is just incredible. That's awesome, man. Well, I'm going to dive in, Acts 19. First of all, welcome back. It's good to be back, man. I had a lot of stored up preach from being out for a month. That's amazing. With me and Janet our 20th anniversary trip. It was great. Yeah. Congrats. Thank you. Well, our 20th anniversary is until October. But every year what we do, then we'll start talking about the Bible in a couple of seconds. What we do is we don't do like birthdays, mothers day, fathers day, blah, blah, blah. We just like, both of us are like, let's just combine it all and do one awesome vacation, just me and you. So we always do that every summer. And we do the thing where if the kids go, we call it a trip. If the kids don't go, we call it a vacation. We go on a vacation. We go on a vacation. vacation in the summer. So it was just us. It was awesome. That's why you have a little color on you?

I'm a little tan. You get Jana in a hammock on the beach and she is good to be there for 10 hours. And I was there a lot. And I got a tan. We can tell it. That's also at the beach. I don't have the blessing of God in my life for tan. I'm half Scottish and half Irish. That's 100% chance I'll never get a tan in my life. I have Scottish, half Irish. Theologians don't tan. No. They don't. I like it.

I was trying to figure out a way to say, you know, grab that and then plug into the Acts 19. Let's go. Let's talk about the Bible. So, hey, man, what did it make into the sermon? I'm curious. Okay, there's a lot of stuff here. So first of all, let's give a heads up to listeners. Because we're going to, what we're going to do in the back half of the pod is respond.

While I was out, it was a very interesting national theological discussion. It's very rare for, like, the entire nation to be having a theological. discussion. And it blew up where Tucker Carlson and Ted Cruz did this interview on whether or not America has a theological obligation to support the nation of Israel. So I'm on vacation. I'm like texting you guys. I'm texting Jason Howard and back here. I'm like texting everybody about like, I was dying not to have a pie. So I was just like, as soon as we get back, we're going to talk about all this stuff on the pod. So the front half of the pod, the deeper dive into the message, we're going to condense a little so that we can get into what is a

pretty heavy theological discussion about Israel, end times, return of Christ, our Jewish people that don't believe in Jesus saved, all the things. So, okay, let me talk real quick about a few things that didn't make it in. First of all, Acts 19, we got Paul going back to Ephesus. It was pretty cool because I was actually in Ephesus recently. Can you guys toss up that picture of the library front? So this was, when we were preaching through letters to the seven churches of Revelation, one of them is, that's it.

One of them was letter to the church at Ephesus. Really interesting because Jesus, years and years after the events of Acts 19, you have this incredible spiritual awakening takes place in Acts 19. Apparently somewhere along the way, this incredible church that had a legitimately revival, they lost their first love both for Jesus and for each other. So when we did modern day emphasis is in Turkey, we filmed a video like right there for the Letters of the American Church series. It's the most mind-blowing city, biblical city I've been to.

Like it's incredibly well preserved. Beautiful. It was a coastal town. A quarter million people live there, massive. That's the library. There was like, I think over 200,000 volumes right there. So like literally, the, apostle Paul literally studied in that library. Like, you know, it's pretty cool stuff.

Wow. A couple of things I want to point out that were really cool and just like, so you can get your head around what's happening here. So in the Acts 19 text, Paul comes in. He starts preaching. It references the lecture hall of Tyrannus. Then a bunch of people get saved. You have the seven sons of Skeva thing, which is kind of an awesome passage, the fight with the demons, and there's nudity and violence and it's crazy, you know. All that happens. Then, all that happens, emphasis, mass revival, they burn all their witchcraft scrolls, a dude named Demetrius the silversmith. And I'm going to show this here in just a second. We actually know exactly, like I've stood there, where he was when the events of Acts 19 happened. And then there are

two verses, verse 29 and 31 that specifically referenced the theater. There after this is this big riot. And like, you can actually go to that theater. Like, it's insane. So I just want to point a few things out here. First of all, this church is a big deal. This ends up being what most people would say was the Apostle Paul's favorite church. Very interesting when you read the book of Ephesians. Obviously, the book of Ephesians was written to the church at. That's a good job. That's right. It's one of, if not the only epistle that contains no correction. It's strict. encouragement, you're awesome. Love you guys. Paul love this church. He also stayed here longer than almost anywhere else. It was here and Corinthians in Corinth are the two places

these days the longest. This church has such a massive outpouring of the spirit here that you're going to see it as a result of the ministry. It's in Acts 19. As a result of the ministry, Paul does in Acts 19. It says the Word of God spreads to all of Asia. Interesting little Bible nerd fact. So when you get to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, letters of seven churches, most Bible scholars think all seven of those six of the other churches got planted directly out of the revival that takes place in Acts 19. That's like every commentary I read said the same thing. That's the conjecture. So massive revival, massive outpouring in the spirit all goes back to this.

In fact, there's evidence of how big the spiritual awakening was. in Ephesus. Can you guys pull up that little, the Ephesian graffiti is essentially what it is? So this is when we think, I've referenced this real quick before, but there's a tie-in here that we didn't get to. So when we think Icthus, we think Jesus fish. The Jesus fish, Icthus, didn't come around for like a few hundred years. That was the original Ecthus. What's interesting is when you're walking through Ephesus today in modern-day Turkey, you see that little. wheel everywhere. It's like etched into the stone in front of anywhere there was an agora, which is a Greek word for marketplace. So dude, here's what happened. All right. So all this stuff

starts making sense. First of all, let's keep looking at this real quick. I just want to point this out. So the reason those are etched everywhere is because you read in Acts 19, we just preach it this weekend. So incredible outpouring of the spirit. So many people get saved that it starts, it overturns the Ephesian economic system. So you've got the temple to Artemis is there. It was one of the seven wonders of the world. Absolutely enormous temple. So many people get saved that the people who are making these little little silver idols, it's like messing with their business. Because now all these Christians aren't buying pagan idols. Right? Because they're, Because they're fake.

Because they're saying they're not real. Either there's nothing to that or it's demonic, so we're not buying it. So here's what happened is persecution breaks out upon the Christians in Ephesus. So when you walk around the agoras in the marketplaces, you see these ichthuses. They created these ichthuses as little secret markers that I'm a Christian. So if you're a Christian, this is what they were doing. It was a little symbol so other Christians would know the dude that owns this. shop is a Christian, I want to help his family because they're experiencing persecution,

so I'm going to buy from this dude. And Christians intentionally went out of their way to help other Christian businesses. Newsflash, Christians should still be doing that. I'll just say that. Like, we should still be doing that. Chow to Chick-Fleigh. That's right. Shout out chiquelay. We could list a million. In and out. Are they? There's a John 316. Yeah. I'm a fan. They're not as good as Waterburger. But are Waterburger? Are Wadderberger? I mean, I don't don't think so. Are you serious? I don't know. Don't mess this. I don't know. Yeah. This might be a bigger debate. This is another debate. The theological case for in and out over Waterborough. I have my convictions. That's fine.

Man, different pod. For me, it just boils down to like in and out, California, Waterburger, Texas. No, that's going. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. So, okay, let's keep going. So what you got right here. So here's what's interesting. The original Ecthus, it is, those five Greek letters over there. me see if I can remember them. Paul, help me out, if I get him wrong. That's Iota, Kai, Theta, Huia. Upsilon, Upsilon Sigma. Yep. Upsilon Sigma. And that stands for Iesus Christos Théhuiyos Sotterer, which means Jesus Christ, God's son, Savior. I don't have time to do this, but if you look close enough, what's really awesome about the original Icthus is it's all those Greek

letters combined make that circle. It's pretty awesome. That is awesome. It's pretty cool. Okay, so that was one thing. A couple other things. And then let's dive into like applying it to our lives as disciples. All right. So go ahead and show that. Can you show the picture of that it looks like kind of a field? So when you're standing looking at that library that I was talking about earlier, that was like the main thoroughfare in Ephesus. If you, if you're looking at the front of the library, this is immediately to the right of the library. That was the agora. Now, if you look around, all around the outside, you can see these little stone things. Those were ancient shops. It was almost like an ancient farmer's market. So this is where the agorra is. Now,

what's really interesting is archaeologists have uncovered this thing where at least one of the synagogues that almost certainly the Apostle Paul was teaching in, it references it in Acts 19, was off the back of one of these little Agora shops. So now all of a sudden it makes sense why Demetrius the Silversmith. So how did he even hear about all these people becoming Christians? It was because literally his shop was probably like just a stones throw away from this synagogue

that was off the back of one of the other little farmer's market booths. And that's why it was affecting his business. So right here, when you read in Acts 19 about Demetrius Silversmith throwing this big fit, He gets big hissy fit, gets her battle angry. That literally happened right there. Wow. Like that's exactly where that happened.

Now, before we switch to anything else, you can see in the back of that picture, the crane. Can you say that crane in the back? That is not original to. Glad you clear. That's why we brought Paul to confirm. I was really confused for a while. Paul the feel of the. Am I right?

I can have authoritative to conclude that that is new. That's not there. It was not there. That's good. All right. So, but now go to the picture of the big theater. This is it. Now that crane that was in the back of that picture is right in front of this. This was the theater. So in verse versus 29 and 31 of Acts 19, it says Demetrius throws the big fit. All these shop owners, they're like, hey, we're getting ready to, you know, probably kill Paul. They're having a mob. It says that then they go down to the theater. That's the theater. It's about, I'd say it's like two to three tenths of a mile away from the Agora on the same street. This is where they were. Now, dude, get this in your head. I mean, like, this is no joke. That thing seats 25,000 people. Yeah, 25,000 people. Anybody know how many,

he doesn't know how much the AAC? I was there. Somebody Google it. What's the American Airlines Center seat? I think, is it 40K? You look it up and I'll keep talking. So this is, is it. And then what I love about the Apostle Paul is he was just, he was that dude. So Paul sees thousands of people coming together in a mob that want to kill him. And Paul thinks, thank y'all for assembling a crowd for me to preach to. It's just so much easier. You guys did the hard part for me. Like he always does every opportunity. Like, what? This is awesome. So, you know, we always want to start, you know, whatever, how many? What's it say? 19,020. Okay, that's what I thought. Okay, I thought about this. So that theater literally seats.

more than the AAC, the MAVs stadium. Wow. All right, just let that sink in. So this is where this mob is happening. So all this is Acts 19. All this is Acts 19. And then that's where Paul wants to preach. Now, obviously, we're hitting the sermon.

Let's hit this real quick. And then let's talk about Jewish people, end times, Israel. Tucker Carlson, Ted Cruz. What an interesting week. What a sentence full of different things. We never thought we'd combine all those. That's why we got our tin foil hats. That's right.

X19. So what happens is what I do want to point. out is obviously what we preach this weekend is how to be revival ready. But as disciples and as men and women of God, what we want to be is we want to be people who like, we at a personal level. We're constantly revival ready. And so you see three very specific things in this passage. You see an awakening to the word. You see an awakening to the supernatural. And you see an awakening to the reality of sin and repentance. And there's just no way to become conform to the image of Jesus as well as three things. So that's the stuff that didn't make it in. And we can keep

gone. I love it though, that's beautiful. It reminds me, especially that last one of repentance, I think it was Martin Lloyd Jones who said that repentance is the language of revival. That when revival was happening, part of what happens is I confront the living out. That's right. And I'm convicted of my sin. And so part of that is just then like there is no revival without repentance. That's true of us, completely true of me individually as well. But then the beautiful thing is on the other side of repentance is the joy. That when we repent, we're not met with a father then says, how dare you? But he says, welcome home. That's right. That's right.

Yeah, people do miss that. Like in Acts 2, you know, Peter preaches and it says there were cut to the heart for repentance. And he says, repent and be baptized. And then later he says, so that times of refreshing my time. Yes. And it's really interesting. Like in my life as a disciple, for some reason before repentance, I'm always like dreading it. Like, oh, it's going to be embarrassing or painful, whatever.

God's going to be like getting the doghouse. And then every time there's confession. and repentance of sin in my life on the back end, I'm like, it's like breathe in fresh air again. There's freedom. Yes. Well, it's interesting,

because you mentioned Acts 2, some people see Acts 19 as a mini Pentecost for Ephesus. And if you think about it, in Acts 2, there's 12 disciples of Jesus, they receive the Holy Spirit, and they begin speaking in tongues and prophesying. In Acts 19, same thing.

12 disciples of John, they received the Holy Spirit. Is it saying 12? So it says that, it literally mentions 12. Yes. I miss that. It says, I believe it says, where were you during sermon prep? Carlos? I believe it says like there were around 12, that's what it says.

That's great. But the number 12 is still mentioned. And so there's a little bit of a parallel there. Again, the Holy Spirit comes. And in both scenarios, they speak in tongues and they prophesy. And so again, it's like the movement of the spirit. Verse 7. There were about 12 men in all.

So there's a very interesting nod there on behalf of Luke. and so Paul can you corroborate that. I just want to make sure that I'm not. So again, the same spirit that started church in Jerusalem is the same spirit building the church among the Gentiles and Ephesus. And obviously, to make it practical,

that's the same spirit that wants to fill his people today. So good. Speaking of that, did you want to go deeper? Just want to jump in. We're... How much not?

We're already... We're 22 in? Yeah, yeah. Let's just hit this real quick. Let me just say a couple things. here so that we can like get practical and then we can dive into all the other stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, one, like our goal on the podcast is not just, it's not learning, it's living.

It's called live free, not learn free. There you go. And so, like, if you just like, like, what we care about is people becoming disciples, families, getting healthy churches being full of the spirit and power of Jesus. And so a couple things, you know, one, those things. three things that awaken to church are the exact same things that will awaken a Christian. Yeah. Um, is you have to, you cannot be spiritually healthy and revitalized without, uh, a consistent and heavy presence of the word in my life, seeking the supernatural leadership of the spirit

in my life. And then practicing the supernatural act of repentance in my life. So, man, there's a, there's a ton of stuff I got on all three of those. Me too. But those three, let's do this. for each of us, we're just going to go free play. Pick the one thing. I'm taking over here. Let's each pick the one thing that it's like, if we had time, this is the one thing out of those three things I would want to talk about real quick and talk about whatever you would say.

And you can pick any, word, supernatural, repentance, and then round robin, and then let's move on. Let's go. I can go. Paul, go for it. Yeah, with the word, something I like to say to people all the time is there's never been a Christian in history. who's had a vibrant relationship with Jesus,

apart from a vibrant relationship with His work. Amen. And we're not going to be the first. Amen. And so it's just, it's one of the things. There's never happened. We're not going to be the first. So if that's been the pattern throughout history,

and if we obviously see it in God's word, we should take it to heart that at the end of the day, if I want a vibrant relationship with Jesus, I have to be in the word that the spirit inspired daily as much as I can. I think it was it. Was it Martin Luther that described the, he's called the scriptures, the swaddling clothes of Christ.

I think it was, yeah. Yeah. This is like, you search them because inside of them you're going to find Jesus and you're not going to find him anywhere else. That's right. That's it, man. I say at 66 on that note, this is one of my favorite verses because it reminds me of the posture of my heart. It says, I, the Lord, have spoken, I will bless those who have humble and contrived hearts, those who tremble at my word. And I think, you know, we live in a culture today where, like, we're just so familiar with scripture. We have it on our

phones. We, you know, we go to church. We see it on the screens. And, you know, sometimes it's easy to just kind of, oh, yeah, I know that verse. And, you know, maybe if you're reading, like, if you read Christian books and, like, you know, Bible verses are quoted, you kind of skip over those because you're kind of already familiar. But then God says, man, for the people that actually, like, tremble. And there's, like, a little bit of a, like, oh, my goodness, like, I can't believe. I'm reading the words of God and he is speaking to me. and there's a holy reverence of a healthy, beautiful fear of God. God says to that guy, I'm going to bless.

Exactly right. And so for somebody even, like, that's just kind of, and I feel like distant from God. And I feel like, you know, where is God? I'm looking for the experience of the supernatural. I'm looking for the Holy Spirit. But it just seems like there's something maybe getting in the way. I would just ask, you know, how is your heart? Do you tremble at the Word of God?

Or do you see it lightly? Or do you see it as something just kind of, oh, yeah, you know, I have a Bible here. And then for me, man, every time that I go back to a posture of like, Lord, I'm going to open your word right now and I don't just want to have it become like another thing that I check on my list of my day, I want you to really, in a supernatural way, speak to me. I just, I experience things that I, you know, those are critical moments for me that, again, whether it just kind of reminds me of my identity or whatever, if I'm going through like a season of anxiety or a crazy season, man, I feel grounded.

And so again, that's for me. It's the war that leads to the supernatural and obviously a life of repentance. Good. So if you were watching on YouTube, you saw me just get up and get out of the screen for a second. If you want a really good book on the fear of God, this book, The Aw of God by John Bevere, is excellent.

It's really, really excellent. It's a theological and practical treatment of what does it mean to fear God? Here's what's really interesting, Carlos. I'm so glad you pointed that out. is like, this is a bit of a pet peeve I have where like Bible teachers will they'll get to a passage about the fear of God and then they spend like four or five minutes

in the sermon explaining how fear doesn't really mean fear. It just means respect or it just means awe or it just means that's not what John says in this book. It just means this or that. I'm like, well, that's really interesting because my Bible just says fear. Literally what it means.

It just says like literally, you should be afraid of God. And that is the, consistent reaction of anyone who draws near to God in the scriptures. The Lord appears to Isaiah, and he's literally like, frigging, woe is me, falls on his face. He's like, I'm a man of unclean lips, and I dwell among a people of unclean lips. My eyes have seen the king, the Lord of hosts. You get right here, like all throughout Acts, Acts 4, I think, Anonis and Sapphire, that's X5. Yeah, five. I was literally just open to it. X5. Great fear came upon the whole church. Exactly. God, like, literally just, he,

kills two people. He literally, there's no other way to say it. God kills two people in response to them openly sinning against the apostles lying to the Holy Spirit. And it says, read it again. It says, great fear fell among all of it. Great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard these things. And then all the people that were there that got to see it happen. And then as soon as that happens, then the word of God multiplies. Exactly. After that, the many signs and wonders were regularly done. And it talks about then the word expanding and multiplying. You have that exact same thing right here in Acts 19. It's the exact same thing

is you have the Seven Sons of Sceva deal where a dude tries to, this is the whole point of that part of the passage is you can't fight, you can't fight a supernatural battle in a natural power. And he walks into a supernatural battle in natural power and he gets his butt kicked.

If you start a fight with your pants on and end a fight with your pants off, you lost. That's what happens that guy. You lost. You lost. and it just says, says the next thing happens, fear of God fell among the people. So it's just like, and then we keep going. The Apostle John, like Jesus' best bud,

he gets there in Revelation 1 and 2, and he sees Jesus for the first time. This is a guy, I always make a little joke about how he reclined on Jesus' chest at the dinner table. I was like, man, I got a lot of friends. I got zero friends who are going to recline on my chest. Carlos, you are not going to recline on my chest.

Is that okay with you, Carlos? I'm not going to do it. They don't do that in El Salvador. Nope. They don't do it in Texas or Kentucky either. There you all. Yep. And that was him with Jesus, but when he sees Jesus for the first time, he literally just, I fell down as though dead.

So it's kind of this principle of, hey man, if I look at the sun from 93 million miles away, it will burn out my retinas. and we think that we can just casually stroll into the presence of the living God. Like, no, no, like there's an appropriate fear that comes with knowing him. I remember, Pastor Josh, if you remember this, because we're about the same age, is when we were teenagers, there was these hats and shirts that went around called Jesus is my homeboy. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It reminds me of that. Yeah, yeah.

And it was this idea of like, I think what they were trying to get across, the head of Jesus is my friend, which is true. But the homeboy is holy. And even, like, to your point, like John, who had this, like, in Christ, friendship with him when he sees. He hits the deck and says he fell down as if dead. That Jesus really had to put his hand on and say, get up. And so there's just, we do have to remember that. If we're taking God lightly, we're probably going to have a light relationship with him. Some people think that God the Father is the Holy One and Jesus is the not Holy One.

It's funny because John falls down as though dead. Peter also falls down before Jesus. Whenever he did the miracle with the fish, Peter's like, man, I'm a sinful man and he just fell down. and so same God. And we keep going on this all day. Fear of God could be a whole podcast. A lot of people miss when Jesus does the, he calms the storm. And it's like, that whole passage is about fear of God because they see the wind of the waves like a little mini hurricane.

And it's like, we're afraid, we're afraid. And then Jesus calms the storm and it says, and then they were greatly afraid. They were more afraid of Jesus in the boat when they realized how powerful he was than they were of the hurricane outside of the boat. Wow. Because there is only one person in the Old Testament

who walked on the waves and controlled the wind in the sea, and that was Yahweh. Bro. And so they get this realization of like, oh, oh. And we could, like you said, we could go on this because it's beautiful. I think when you understand the right fear of God,

it actually amplifies the grace of God that we then have in repentance. Because there's a story in the Old Testament where people, someone flippantly puts their hand out on the ark and they struck dead. Same thing, great fear, awe, because he had taken the glory of God, So this idea like in the Oasis, you couldn't touch holy things or as you would fall dead.

But that's I love going back to Revelation is that there's John. He's falling down as if dead because he's actually seeing Jesus rightly. And then Jesus, Yahweh in the flesh, touches him. That's right, man. And instead of killing him, it actually, he says, get up. I am the living one. I was dead and I'm now alive. So if anything, the fear of God when you do it rightly amplifies the grace of God.

One more thing. You know, you will not experience revival in ice. isolation. One of the reasons I genuinely love, you know, to do what we do here, that we just open the Word of God and just go back and forth is, is because that's where you get to, that's where you grow, that's where you get to experience. I wanted to, you know, for somebody that's maybe thinking, man, I don't know, I'm not sure. I'm joining in the pod. Maybe I'm joining for a little bit. And, you know, you guys talk about groups. I don't, I actually don't know what my next step is. I don't know what, I would love to maybe grab the show notes and join a group. I just know who to meet.

man we in just a couple weeks here at lake point we're actually launching rooted yeah and rooted is a a 10 week discipleship experience where you basically especially if you're not in a group this is literally designed for you for you to jump in a group of people just like you brand new and you go through the seven rhythms of being a disciple according to the book of acts there's a whole week on like how to read the bible that's amazing like jane and i are leading a root of group yeah we just went through it. There's a whole week. Actually, there may be two weeks on how to read the Bible instead of the Bible is amazing. It's absolutely amazing. That's it. And so we want to help you. If that's you, text rooted to 20411 or drop a comment in the chat. And again, our team is here to help you.

And so again, revival does not happen in isolation. You need to be surrounded by people that love Jesus as well. Amen. I love that. By the way, we get excited about talking about this. It seems to me like it's a, it's a good thing. But now it's time. to Let's do it Hold on We got our tin foil ads on Let me see

Okay Shout out to the movie Science That freaked me out as a kid Were you? Did it scare you this? It scared me When they showed

Alien Bro I gave up in scary movies After that movie Was it a demon? Is it a demon? Is it supposed to be demon? You don't think so?

I don't think so He's a priest All the things I need to rewatch This thing You need to rewatch I have read that it was supposed to be

a nod to the demonic. If it was, they did a good job because that was scary. I remember watching that. I was living in Ohio at the time where my house was, you had to drive through farmland. And so the moon was out

and it was bright. And there's a scene where you see one kind of just a silhouette on top of a house on a farm. And it freaked me out, nearly got in a wreck just because I was looking off and scared to death.

Do you think it was a demon? No. No. No, but I'm not right. No, but I'm ready. Okay. Well, speaking of demons. What?

Actually. What? No, just kidding. Not speaking of demons. Speaking of what? Speaking of what? How are you going to do this? Because now it's like whatever you say, let me do the transition.

Let me do the transition. Not speaking of demons, Josh. Would you please do I hear that? Let me do the transition. The reason we have tin foil hats on is because we're going to talk about end times, big theological word, eschatology, which comes. comes from Eschatan, Greek word meaning last. Last or final.

Laster final. Anology, meaning study of. Study of a word's about. Study of the, oh, look at the feet along. If I have any questions about the etymology of a word, I just don't ask Paul. It's like a human chat. GPT. All right.

So we're going to talk about end times, return of Christ, Israel. Mm-hmm. Are things like a war with Iran and Israel? Is that a sign of the end times of Christ's return? And any time I talk about this stuff, I feel like a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist, but we're not because we got Bibles in our hands.

So we just thought we would embrace it. Let's go. Now, here's where this comes from. And by the way, we're going to get like super nerdy. Like, I mean like super nerdy here for a second. We're going to talk about different views of the end times. Let me preface this and tell them where we're going and then we're going to go there. Can you guys go ahead and cue up that Tucker Ted Cruz clip that sparked all this?

Okay. So we're going to answer questions like this in the next few minutes. It all started with me being I was sitting on a beach while Janah was in a hammock reading a book. And I was just, I'm a news junkie. So I see this little clip of Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson debating, does America have a theological obligation to support the nation state of Israel? And I got a million thoughts to run through my head while watching it. So I start texting all these guys. So we're going to answer questions like this after we watch this clip.

Does the church replace Israel in the new covenant, a theological position called supersessionism, or a smear term called replacement theology? Sometimes people will do that. Does God still have a special affection for the Jewish people? Or has that, have they been replaced by the people of faith and the Church in the New Testament? Are Jewish people who believe the Old Testament but reject Jesus as Messiah saved? Should we want to, quote, stay on the side of Israel? Like, in other words, does America have a theological or moral obligation to stay on the side of the nation's state of Israel? Does the promise from Genesis that God will bless those who bless you when he speaks to Abraham and his offspring? I'm going to just highlight that word.

That's an important word. And his offspring, singular, does that promise like still in effect today? All right. So we're going to, and all that ties into different views at the end time. So let's begin. Here's the clip that sparked all this off. We may ask you to pause at some point, but go ahead. Growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible.

Those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed. Pause. Let me go ahead and read it. So he's, this is, I'm just going to read the passage. He's referring to Genesis 12. It says this, beautiful passage. The Lord, this is Abrahamic covenant is what this chapter is referred to. The Lord had said to,

Abraham, Abraham, go from your country, your people, and your father's household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you. I will make your name great and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you. And whoever curses you, I will curse. And all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you. That's what he's quoting. Let's keep going. My perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of thing. Of those who bless the government of Israel? Those who bless Israel is what it says. It doesn't say the government of it says the nation of Israel.

Pause. Okay. Now, that's important. Okay. So let's talk about this for a second. I do think there is a distinction between the ethnic people, the Jewish people, and the government of Israel. So for instance, this, now Paul, you can disagree with me or I had context here. In Genesis 12, when God gives this promise,

he's giving the promise to Abraham and his offspring. And we'll get more into that in a second. So I do think there's a distinction between the people, distinction but overlap. I'll just say that. Distinction but overlap, almost like a Venn diagram, concentric, not concentric, but overlapping circles. That there's a distinction between the nation state

or the government of Israel and the people biblical Israel. Yes. Yeah, agree, disagree, additional comments. I would probably agree. Maybe to help people think of, if I say Rome, I could be referring to the city, but sometimes people are referring to it as the head of the Catholic Church. Rome has said and stuff like that. So I can use the same word, but can mean different things. In scripture, for sure, Israel is sometimes used as an actual state with a king, with borders.

But even then, once that kingdom splits in two, there's a northern part, which is Israel, and a southern part, which is Judah. So Israel could apply to all the land, and it can apply just to a small part, depending on what part of the Bible you're reading. then you get to Romans 9, which we may even get to here in a bit. And Paul says that not all Israel is Israel. He can't be talking about the kingdom because at that time there is no kingdom. He seems to be talking more about people who have Jewish descent. But even then, he uses the word in two different ways. He said, just because you're Jewish descent doesn't mean you're actually Israel.

So that's part of what makes the conversation tough and why it gets even heated. And right here is because we could be saying the same word but have different meanings because the Bible can use the same word in different ways to people. depending on the context. Exactly. Now, what I, and some context I would add to that is in the same way, like that promise does not always mean that people are morally obligated to agree with whatever is the government of Israel. So for instance, throughout the Old Testament, you have wicked rulers of Israel. People appropriately should have and did relate to, for instance, the, uh, the, uh, the administration of Ahab and Jezebel differently than they related to the administration of Josiah,

a righteous king. So this promise clearly does, yeah, promise does clearly does not always mean you have to support any decision by the governing authority of the nation state of Israel. 100%. I think some people get trapped it on there for some reason. Like they have to agree them with everything. And to your point, like if we were in the Old Testament times, would that mean that we have to agree when they were practicing idolatry and they were sacrificing their children to pagan demons. No, we would not. Of course not. Or even go back to the founding of the modern state of Israel. A lot of people don't know that some, not all, but some of the founders of it were socialists and were atheists, if that best agnostic. Yeah, 1948.

Reestablished nation of Israel. And so I can say I support them being reestablished at times. It doesn't mean I have to then support. They have a socialistic policy that I disagree with. And so that's a key distinction is that I can broadly support, but it doesn't mean I have to rubber stamp every single decision they make. Now, I'm going to go ahead and cut to the chase. And if you guys disagree, you can say it. I would also say that sometimes there are theological reasons. Like, here's a question.

Are you supporting Israel for theological reasons or geopolitical reasons or both? So I'll just cut to the chase. Like, I was a huge fan. Personally, I was a fan of knocking out Iranian nuclear facilities. Like, yep, checkmark. That's stinking awesome. I wish they had done it harder. whatever, you know, I'm all in. And from what I understand and read, when the Israeli military took

out some of the Iranian officials that were trying to acquire nuclear powers, I was like, that's great, big fan. But word debating, is there a theological prerogative to always support them? And I think it's important, again, to say that now, because when people are resonant with this, do you think, oh, you have to always land in the same spot for the same reasons. Whereas, for example, when I'm watching that video of Ted Cruz, I'll put my cards in the table and say, I agree with him in its foreign policy. I'm like you. I'm like, to me, and if the bombs that we dropped, apparently maybe didn't the job completely,

we should drop 20 more if we need to, to be able to finally destroy their nuclear capabilities. But I would disagree with Ted Cruz and how he got there. So, like, right there. As far as taking a theological route. It's like right there. I just think that shows to, you know, is that I can disagree how he got there

theologically, but we can still end up in the same place practically. And so there might be some nuances here that, hey, there's only two ways of coming at this. I'm like, no, there can be some nuances and some things that we have to parse that. So what you're saying is you agree with what he's doing. You disagree with the reasoning behind

why he's doing it. Exactly. Okay, interesting. We'll see. I may agree or disagree with you. Let's keep going. By the way, I'm going to take this off. Yeah, I'm distracting.

This thing. All right. So let's keep going on this clip. So that's in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that. Where is that? I can find it to you. I don't have the scripture off the tip of my.

You pull out the phone and you... I mean, he knows exactly what he's doing. He knows exactly what he doing. So you're quoting a Bible phrase. You don't have context for it and you don't know where in the Bible it is, but that's like your theology? I'm confused. What does that even mean?

My younger brother used to do that to me when I'm a Christian. I want to know what you're talking about. Okay. Where does my support for Israel come from, number one? because biblically we are commanded to support Israel. But number two, hold on. Hold on. You're a senator and now you're throwing out theology and I am a Christian and I am allowed to weigh in on this.

We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel. Pause. I do want to say this. Here's what I like. I like that leaders of our nation are wrestling with theological implications for how the Word of God that is true and should be treated as true, even in geopolitical decisions. The Word of God should be treated as true.

You treat true things as true. I love that this discussion's happening. But even to what Paul said, even the word support Israel. Like, what does that mean? That could mean so many different things depending on where you take it. From a government perspective

or from, you know, again, from praying for the country. Like, yeah. No, exactly. All right. You're smiling. You're waiting for response to me. No, let's keep going. Let's keep on.

Let's keep on. We are commanding. We are commanded to support Israel. And we're told, we're told those who bless Israel will be blessed. But hold on, define Israel. This is important. Are you kidding?

This is a majority of Christian country. Define Israel? Do you not know what Israel is? That would be the country you've asked like 49 questions about. So that's what Genesis refers. That's what God is talking about. The nation of Israel, yes. And he's, so does that the current borders, the current leadership?

He's talking with the political entity called Israel. Pause. And again, we keep going back to this, but that's the question. Is there a distinction between? between like Al Mueller says, by the way, we're going to put this in the show notes. There's a 20-minute clip

from Al-Moller, president of Southern Seminary, dissecting this. He does an unbelievable job. If this is interesting to you, you should go listen to it. It's in the show notes. But Mueller points out

there's a difference between, I think he uses national Israel and biblical Israel. Yeah, I think he said, biblical Israel or the state of Israel. The state of Israel. Okay. And what he points out,

and Paul pointed this out earlier. Now, again, I'm going to talk about this in a second. I am of the belief that the promise of God in Genesis 12, I will bless those who bless you and those who curse you shall be cursed. I think that's still in effect. I think that at least in some way, and we can talk about how or how not, it actually still applies to the descendants of Abraham, the Jewish people.

I do think in some way it still does. But that's the question. Is there a distinction between biblical Israel and the government of Israel? Paul pointed this out earlier. when Israel was formed as modern day Israel was formed in a nation 1948, a lot of those leaders were secular, godless, like socialist Marxists. Even like, let's just say, if Paul were writing Romans 9 through 11,

any time travel today, he would rewrite it again of the idea of, hey, they've still rejecting the Messiah. My heart longed for them. I want them to come to know Jesus. And I'm not using that as a slam against Jewish people, against the modern state of Israel. It's really just to say that, hey, a lot of them are actually in the same place

where they are still rejecting Jesus. And in many cases, he'd actually say, man, you've gone even further away and that many of you don't even believe in God at all. There you go. So, let's keep going. He's talking about the nation of Israel. Yeah, nations exist, and he's discussing a nation.

A nation was the people of Israel. Is the nation God's referring to in Genesis? Is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now? Yes. Yes. It is. And by the way, it's not run by Benjamin Netanyahu as a dictator. It's a democratic country that elected.

He's the prime minister. Right. But just like, just like, like, you know, America. Popcorn. I know. Every time I watch that, I'm just like. Okay.

Let's start here. And then we can zoom out and we can talk about escatological positions. So let's just start right here. Paul, Carlos, if you want to chime in, however you want to do it. So the question in front of us is, is the promise I will bless those who bless you and those who curse you shall be cursed. Is that promise still in effect? Who does it apply to? Well, and to clarify your question, so in effect, when you say to modern nations, the question is,

into the modern nations, that's good. Because there's a distinction there because somebody would say, well, does it apply to the ethnic people, ethnically Jewish people? Or does it apply to modern nations? Yeah. Which one are you asking? All of the above. You just talk about it.

Paul, you start. What's your math here? What's your theological math? And then we'll keep talking. I think it's a multi-layered answer, and I'll try to keep it short. But actually, before I give you the specific answer, I want to read from me. Galatians 329. It says, then you are Abrams offspring, Abraham's offspring. And if I were to ask you, who do you think that's talking about? If you just were hearing me say that out of context, you'd think,

oh, obviously to Jewish people. But actually, then if you back up, it says, if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. And so I would actually say that, while I do not believe the church in any way replaces Israel, what I do believe is that the church is now the recipient of that promise to Abraham, that now those who are children of Abraham are those who have faith, but not just faith in general and a God in general, but a faith specifically in Jesus, that your relationship with God is determined by your relationship with Jesus. And so on the one hand, I would actually say that, yes, this promise does to apply, but I would actually say it applies in part to the church, that this is now expanded. And that's what I like

to say replace. I like to say expanded, not to just to Jewish people, but also to believers in Jesus to the church. And so you could say those who bless the church will be blessed and those who curse the church will be cursed. So that's one thing. Even going back and up before that, what you see oftentimes in the New Testament, although it's not necessarily with this exact language, is that Jesus is the true Israel, that he fulfilled everything that actually Old Testament Israel could not, even like a cool little detail that some people miss. When Jesus is baptized, he goes through the waters and then spends 40 days in the wilderness being tested. He's tested three times. If you look up those references, they're from the Old Testament where the people

are tested. So think about it, he goes through the water and he's tested three times. Well, if you go to the Old Testament, the people of Israel go through the water of the Red Sea, they're tested and they fail repeatedly. And then they are in the wilderness for how long? For 40 years. So part of what that passage is trying to say is that Jesus is the true Israel, the fulfillment of it, where everywhere they failed, he succeeded. And so I would say part of this is, man, we are called to bless Jesus. But then finally, for me, I would not be a person who just, leaves it there personally. Then I'd love to hear you weigh on this too.

Well, I would actually start with Jesus and then I would go to the church. I would say that, man, we are called to bless. I would actually say all people, including, and I would say specifically recommend this, the Jewish people, we should have a special heart for them. And since much of the state of modern Israel contains many Jewish people,

I think 46% of the world's Jewish people live in modern Israel. Oh, really? 46%. I didn't know that. So I would say we should bless all people. Which, by the way, also means that the other 60, 50, 54% are ethnically non-Jewish living in Israel. They're Jewish, they're just non-is.

He's speaking about ethnic Jews. Yes, that's what I'm saying. So the other percentage is they're ethnically not Jewish. No, no, they are ethnically Jewish, but they're living in other nations besides modern Israel. Got it, got it. Okay. You're not talking about the population of the country.

Got it. So two things, this is so, yes, I would say it applies to our relationship with Jesus, applies to, I would say, the church. And I would argue it applies to all nations, including modern Israel. And then I will say because of God's relationship with the Jewish people, there is a special thing. Like even to justify it even back at a little, I'd love to hear what you have to say. In Romans 9, Paul is in anguish because his Jewish brothers and sisters have rejected Jesus' Messiah, in mass at least. And he says, man, to them belong the covenants, the promises all these things.

And he even goes as far as his, I would be cut off from Christ if that meant them coming to Christ. Yeah, he literally is like, I would give up my seat in heaven if they could take it. Yes. And so I would almost view it that way where I think we're called to bless. nations from every world. But I do think we should recognize, man, there should be a special place in our heart for the Jewish people. And yes, for the nation of Israel where there's a concentration of those people in one place. That'd be how that's a very nuanced answer, but that's how I would approach it. So let me clarify that if that's okay. So back to the

original question, does the promise of those who bless you, I will bless you apply to ethnically Jewish people? Sounds like you're saying yes. Yes. I would say not exclusively to them. And I would then later to say, I'm not going to say that all the Jewish people are the exact same as the modern state of Israel. Which means that the problem, the question, that's the promise, those who bless you, I will bless apply to modern nations. Sounds like you're saying no. I don't think that's what he said. I think he's saying, does it immediately, like it is, what he's saying is that Israel is not coterminous. Yes. With the modern nation of Israel. So when the Bible talks about Israel or Abraham's offspring, that's not coterminous.

That is not a one-to-one equivalent with a modern-day nation state of Israel. But what he's saying is there is obviously significant overlap because a massive, A, it's the same land mass in large part. B, there's a massive concentration of those ethnic people in that spot. So I know. Does that say that right? Yes. And that's how, again, it's a nuanced answer, but that's how the answer.

Yes. you know this, but I'm also trying to make it for as clear as possible for people asking. Does that mean then that the Genesis promise mean that I, if the person's asking, does that mean that I need to bless the nation of Israel today?

Sounds like I said, it sounds like you're saying no. Like the, sorry, the political state of Israel today. This to me even like when you were saying earlier, you asked the question, what does it mean to support? I would even say, what do we mean by blessing? Does that mean I want, To me to bless them means I want what's best for them.

And I want good for them and to wish good on them. And so for me, like with both the modern state of Israel, because I would distinguish just to make clear between the modern state of Israel and biblical Israel in the Old Testament and the New, is I would say, man, I want the best for them, of course. And that includes I want them to come to know Jesus. I do want peace and prosperity. I want justice to be done there in that whole region.

And I would also say, I want that for every nation in the world. That doesn't mean that wars don't have to happen, that things don't have to be done to secure. peace and the world following where we live in. But yeah, yeah, got it. Well, hey guys, one of the reasons we are intentional in creating this kind of podcast episodes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships. Having said that, what we want to do through the Live Free podcast is model what it looks like to be in a discipleship group where we come together and open up the Word of God and honestly just grow together as followers of Jesus to live free in

Christ. And so for this reason, we love that you're tuning in, but honestly, we don't just want you to be a passive listener. We want you to be an active participant. And so if you have not yet joined the group, whether in person or online, I want to challenge you to test drive one. And so to do that, just text the word group to 20411 or go to lake point.compt.com slash groups because listen, you're not one podcast away, one habit away, one decision away, one book away, one sermon away. Listen, you are one relationship away to experience freedom in Christ in community. And now, let's get back to the podcast. I'll answer the same question and I'm going to answer it in almost the same way. But I do just want to. So, okay, you've got the Genesis 12 promise.

And obviously I'll bless those who bless you, whoever curse you all curse. That's where God tells Abraham, he's going to make of him a great nation, a lot of offspring. That's the key word is offspring, and it's singular. That's really important that is singular. Now, we're asking the question, okay, that's Old Covenant. In the New Covenant, like big theological words, how much continuity is there between the Old Covenant and New Covenant, and how much discontinuity is there between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant?

To super Bible nerd out, you really start, you're really talking about, there are two primary ways to read the storyline of the Bible, covenant theologians and dispensational theology. And dispensational theology tends to see a radical discontinuity between Old Covenant and New Covenant. Covenant theology tends to see a radical continuity between the Old Covenant and New Covenant. That's a super Bible nerd thing. Can I jump in real? Please do. Or this would help here just for people that are listening in is that a dispensationalist then would say all of the promises made to ethnic Israel into the nation of Israel have to,

to be literally fulfilled. And so they would say, yes, it also does for sure to take place in the church and that God has planned for the church. But they would also say, hey, it has to be filled in part. Then it has to have a nation state. They have to have the land back. They have to have the temple. Got to build a temple. Got to do the five heifers. Just wanted to fill that in real fast.

Literal king in charge. I don't think that's a... Pince which ones you talk to. Yeah, okay, that's a lot. Okay, let me go back to this and then we're going to get into because here's what a lot of people don't understand. We're alluding to this. it's really somebody's really somebody's view of the end times.

Their eschatological view, their view of the end times shapes how they think we should relate to Israel now. So that's what we're going to get to here in a second. Let me answer this, the thing we were talking about, bless those who bless you.

So you got that in Genesis 12. I'm going to read the whole Galatians passage. So this is Galatians 316, and it helps us as New Testament Christians know how we should think about who are the people of God now. So it says this, the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. This is Paul in Galatians 3.

Scripture does not say and to seeds. Some of your Bible translations will use the word offspring and offsprings. Paul's pointing out, no, the promise was singular to one specific offspring of Abraham, meaning many people, but it says, and to your seed, meaning one person. So Paul's saying, that promise was specifically about one offspring of Abraham. Now, as Christians, you're probably going, I bet I know who that one offspring was, who is Christ. There's the kicker now. Skip down a couple verses. So in Christ Jesus, you are all children of God through faith. So he's saying, everyone that exercises faith in the promises of God, specifically centered on the person and work of Jesus,

all of those people are now the people and children of God. Verse 27, let's keep going. For all of you who were baptized into Christ Jesus have clothed yourselves with Christ. This goes back to what this Paul, this Paul, not that Paul. What Paul Cunningham said is Jesus in one sense is the Israel of God. Charles Spurgeon used to love to say that. Jesus is the Israel of God. And then what Paul is saying is Jesus was the Israel of God. And then because of your faith, you are in Christ. That's the language.

So now you're part of that. All right. So you have closed yourself with Christ. Would you say, Josh, that in one sense, what you're saying is that the church is the new Israel in one sense? Well, hang on, hang on. Let's keep going. Verse 28. That's when he goes straight to this because that's the question.

All right. So does that mean that, you know, so is it Jews, Gentile? You know, what's the distinction? Well, this is the very next verse. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if you both, this is huge, listen close. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. So what he's saying is, with respect to the promise of God for salvation, there is not a distinction between an ethnically Jewish person and an ethnically Gentile person because all of you are in Christ.

All right. Now, did you notice he said, it says, airs according to the promise. It's specifically referring back to the promises God gave Abraham in Genesis 12 and 15 in the Abrahamic covenant. So here's what I take Paul to mean, the Apostle Paul, not Paul Cunningham. What I think that means is that when God gives the promise to Abraham and his offspring singular in Genesis 12, those who bless you shall be blessed and those who curse who shall be cursed. And then now Galatians 3 is saying, we are the offspring of Abraham according to the promise because we're in Christ. Here's what I think that means. I think that means that now that promise of,

applies primarily to New Testament Christians, people of faith in Jesus, but I would also be quick to add, I don't think there's any way to read Romans 11, the end of Romans 11, and not come to the conclusion that God still has a special plan for the future of ethnically Jewish people to have a radical revival.

Like I think one of the signs of the end is gonna be tons of Jewish people get saved, like tons of them. So much so that Romans 11 says, it uses the language, all Israel shall be saved. I take that to mean so many Jewish people will come to faith in Jesus that in a generalized sense, people will be going like, dude, it seems like every Israelite you meet is a Christian now. That's right. I think that's what. So to answer the question, I will bless those who bless you, those who curse you shall curse. I will curse. I think that applies both to modern-day Christians and to ethnically Jewish people.

Now, now, now let's do this. I was ready to give another scripture from Ephesians too, but we probably go ahead and next question. Yeah, let's go on. So Paul, can you, let's, again, we're super Bible nerding out. Yeah. Can you sketch really briefly the, and I know this is an impossible task because usually like literally entire volumes are written on this

and I'm asking you to do it in like three minutes. can you briefly sketch, do you want to do the three main escatological positions or four main? Let me do the three main and then really the third one is like an A-B. So what Paul's going to do is he's going to sketch

the three primary views of the end times that have been prominent in church history and then briefly talk about how each of them affects somebody's view of our relationship to Israel. And before I jump in, I think where this helps is a lot of times from we're having this conversation, even you saw some of the videos, there's this thought

is, oh, there is simply the Christian view of this, when in reality, there's been many views throughout history. And so it had to be really careful to say, nope, there's only one view you can have. You can have a view that you're convinced of and passionate about it. You just have to be little careful to say there is only one particular way to see it. So go ahead. Can I give one more caveat? I'm going to give a couple more. I'll give some caveats right now. To what you just said, so when Paul starts to sketch these, here's what's really important is theologians of historically, it's called theological triage. Theologians have historically divided doctrines into three categories. And depending on where a doctrine is positioned in the theological

triage, depends on how much conflict there should be around that doctrine. So for instance, there's first, I'm going to do this very briefly, and then it's your turn. This is actually what I was about to go to. So this is perfect. Good, good, good. So you got first tier issues, second tier issues, third tier issues. First tier issues. This is why the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, he says, for I deliver to you as of first importance. And then he says the gospel, that Christ died in accordance of the scriptures that he was raised. Paul is pointing out that all doctrines are equally true, but not all doctrines are equally important, which means not all doctrines are equally worth dividing over.

First tier issues are issues where it's more important to be right than to be together. There are some doctrines that it's worth splitting a church over. Where if we disagree, you and I have different faith. It's not that we shouldn't be a part of different church. We have a different faith. first-tier issue. On a first-tier issue. If you disagree with somebody else on a first-tier issue, honestly, we're talking about the difference between Christianity and a cult. That's exactly right. Basically, Trinity. So the nature of God. So the Trinity has historically been viewed as a first-tier issue.

But then really after that, you're going salvation by grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone. So those are the ones. If you disagree on any of those things, it's not a debate among brothers. Now it's like, hey, bro, you're in a cult and I'm a Christian. All right. So there are some doctrines that's worth dividing over the first, those are first two issues. Second year issues are issues where it's more important to be together than to be right, but it might be uncomfortable. Yeah. So these are issues where it's like gender roles, you know, there's a mode of baptism. Like, dude, we're all on team Jesus. But honestly, if you disagree with me on mode of baptism and you think that it's morally and theologically wrong that we practice at Lake Point. Some is called Credo baptism. That's

baptism post-faith in Jesus. And you believe in Pato baptism, that's baptizing babies. That's part of covenant theology, super nerd stuff. It's going to be uncomfortable because you're going to watch us baptize 2,000 people every year. Or more. Or more. And it doesn't mean we're not a part of the same faith. It just means that we're going to see these things very differently. Is that exactly totally? By the way, this secondary issues, that's where denominations come from. Yes. By the way, some people you hear Christians hate on the fact that there's so many different denominations, I actually think that's a healthy thing. Those denominations crystallized around distinctions, differences among second-tier issues,

and actually their purpose is not disunity. Their purpose is ability to maintain unity among second-tier doctrine distinctions. So these are issues where it's more important to be together than to be right, but it might be uncomfortable. Now, third-tier issues are issues where it's more important to be together than, to be right and it should not be uncomfortable. That's right. These are issues like, I'll be honest, like age of the earth. Like I'll give away, I'll tip my cards here.

I lean Young Earth creationist. I'm that guy, you know, the simple tend idiot. That's where I lean. It's not worth dividing a church over. It's like the New Testament warns against people who have an unhealthy craving for controversy. It says warn a divisive version once and then again and have nothing to do with them.

And by the way, this is germane to this conversation. Eschatological views have almost always been viewed as third-tier issues. Like, dude, Paul's going to explain what this means here in 30 seconds. But if at Lake Point, you got two people in a life group and one guy is a historic premil guy and another guy is Amil and another guy has a post-mill view. like we can you know have a drink and and debate it with a Bible open and then we should be like all right man that's cool let's go reach a big lost city together and disciple a bunch of families and we're all on the same team it's exactly where I was going to it's like really we can have

spirited discussion sometimes even debate but we should never have division or distraction division from each other distraction from what God has called us to do and even like I like to even say hey in terms of before we get to some of the differences what have faithful Jesus-loving Bible-believing Christians throughout history held to. We all hold to that Jesus is going to return. There's going to be a resurrection of the dead, a final judgment. There should be a new heavens, new earth, and that sin, Satan, and death are going to be finally and fully defeated. All Christians throughout history agree on those things. And when you look scripturally, those should lead us to live lives marked by hope for the future, godliness and the present,

and then urgency to see the gospel come to those who, if Jesus returned now, it would not go well for them. but where those same faithful Bible believe in Christians have disagreed is usually on the sequence of those events I just mentioned in the timing of them. So three big camps. And really it all comes down to Revelation 20, what's often referred to as the millennium, the idea of a thousand-year reign of Christ. An all-millennial list would be a person who says that Revelation in general and specifically 20, it's more symbolic, that Christ is reigning right now in heaven, and that as the gospel is going out, there's going to be some good things that happen in this world. But there's also going to be some bad things. So a little bit mixture. At the very end, there's going to be a pretty big tribulation and a trying time.

But then Jesus will return. And so Jesus returned, resurrection of the dead, final judgment, all those will happen basically at the same time. That there won't be a large gap between those. Post-millanialist would be a second view. I actually sometimes say post-malonists for my jinsey people out there. Just because I'm not really good at saying these phrases, even though I love discussing them. And so I'm not even say post-mills and ah-mills and so on and so forth. So post mills are actually very similar to omels, except whereas they would, whereas an omel would say,

oh, it's going to be a mixed bag. A post mill would say, actually, as the gospel goes forth, more people come to know Jesus. Cultures and societies will be transformed. So they would point to, we mentioned earlier in Ethic, it's going to have a real world impact. Societies and cultures will be transformed and eventually will go into a golden era. At the end of that, it could be 1,000 years, but a lot of times they see it more symbolically. It could be 500, it could be 2,000 years. Eventually, Christ will return post-millium.

after that millennium, after that golden age, Christ will return. So they're saying the millennium is now. It could be. Some would say it's right now. Some would say it's not really going to start until we reach that golden era where the gospel is gone throughout.

So even there, by the way, is probably another good caveat. As we're saying these things, I might say something about a view and you're in that view and you think, well, I don't believe that. And I get it. We have to paint with big, broad brush strokes here.

Finally is Primo. So if post-mill... By the way, can I just say this? Yeah. I think the most fun one to believe would be post-mill. I this week almost switched to it As I was prepping

I was like There's some good arguments Isn't that the minority of you though It is the minority now But at one point it wasn't And if we get to that I can make sure I can't if we go

Because historically At the last hundred years The reason why it's faded out It's because you know Things like the Great Depression World War I World War II, Vietnam War War It doesn't seem like we're always winning

No it doesn't But I was actually listening to a post work for the business and I was like, oh, I'm really, because a lot of, I actually line up with a lot of their other interpretations of Revelation is that they would say, well, listen, but if you look at society in general, the places where the gospel have gone forth, the culture has been radically transformed. And they're right, by the way. And they're right. They're right. Such as, I mean. Oh, in Europe. I mean, just about pre-Christianity and post. It's right. And all the things, by the way, even if you're not a Christian day, all the things that

you hold dear equality, freedom, those were not values before the kind of. Human rights. Human rights. It's like, man, atheists are barring values that they really have no right to because they have no belief frame that can give it to. We're able to say. Carlos, if you, there's a, there's an old, man, John Piper tossed it in a sermon one time. The, the, have you seen the thing about where sociologists looked at the development of the world? And they were like, these were non-Christian sociologists. And they were like, man, the number one corollary between the nations that have the most prosperity. is the presence of conversionary Protestant missionaries. And if you basically overlay a map, a map of the world where the most development has taken place and the most human flourishing has taken place,

it's the exact same map as where Christianity has spread the most. They're the exact same map. And it doesn't mean we've always gotten everything right because we're following people, but to your thing, it's hard to argue against. And so I'll speed this up so we can get to our last group

that has two offshoot. is that people would say, well, man, look at the world now. A post-Millennialists would say, well, people who are saying that usually aren't a part of the world. But, hey, the gospel is spreading like crazy in the global South. Societies are being transformed. And here's the analogy I would give is that if you picked a stock that had risen, like, let's say, 500% for the last 10 years, that's a pretty incredible return. But if you've zoomed in on 2020, there'd be a dip. And so, like, oh, this stock is really, it's going bad.

Bitcoin. Huh? Bitcoin. Yeah. Bitcoin. coined, oh, there's plenty that I've looked at in the past few months. I'm like, why didn't I? Because then if you zoom out, you see, it's rebounded and gone even higher. So post-millios would say, yeah, it's not going well over the last hundred years. But they would also say, hey, even like when you say the tide is turning,

they'd say, yes, it is. We're going out of the dip and it's going back up. All right. Just got to give some love to my post-millennial friends because they are the minority and they get picked on a lot. So then you have pre-millennial. Let me just say, they do their fair share picking, too. Let's keep going on. I wasn't going to say to. We're not going to drop names. the same people were thinking. I wish you would. By the way, had a filled day with this video we watched.

I was eating popcorn as well when I was watching. I don't know if I can call it X. I'll call it Twitter still. But anyways, don't sue me, Elon. Anyways, going back to my last group, so pre-millennial, they believe that Jesus is returning before the millennium. They would have a little bit more of a literalistic interpretation,

not a very literalistic interpretation of Revelation. They would say, hey, there's going to be, things get really bad. There's going to be something that has the tribulation, is what it's called. And then Jesus will return. defeat evil, but then there'll be this thousand year reign physically of Christ on earth with resurrected believers and believers who are alive at that time. So they're going to reign physically with Jesus for a thousand years. But what about the rapture? Is that part of the...

I'll get back to that because there's two groups. One group is going to hate that I'm going to use these phrases, but there's what's called classical or historic pre-millennial. Or for those friends who maybe don't like those terms, mainstream, maybe you just say mainstream premillennials. George Ladd. Yeah, George Ladd. They would say there's going to be rapture in this sense. of we are going to meet Jesus in the air, but then we're coming back down. Because they would point where that's reference

in Thessalonians, the language is the same language that is used of when an emissary or king would come to a city. They would go out and meet the king, but then come immediately back with the king, is what they would point to. And so, historic or classic pre-Molonious would say literal thousand-year reign. At the very end, there's going to be

a final rebellion. Jesus kicks their teeth in, winds, and then new heavens and earth begins after the final judgment. a different offshoot that developed for the last couple of years, and then I'm going to actually push Paulus and kind of give their views then on ethnic Israel and then the nation states of Israel. Dispensational pre-millanialism has arisen. They would say it's been throughout history, but it's really arisen specifically as a huge movement in the last 200 years. Some big differences. Schofield Bible. Schoolville Bible, huge influence, especially in America.

For those of you, like in the last 30 years, the Left Behind series, that's dispensationalism. Dispensational pre-millennialism. That's the left-behind viewpoint. Yes. And I will say just to give a, a lot of people think that's the Christian view. And I think what you do need to do as a Christian is zoom out and I go, man, actually, by the way, this is not saying that's wrong.

That position may actually be correct. I kind of lean historic premil, but that position may totally be correct. But I do think what a Christian has to do is zoom out and go, oh man, there are other positions that have been actually more prominently held. Yes, and so many people, because of its huge influence in America, think that that is the view. And it may be right, but we got to be careful at your point to not think it's the view. A few differences, and then I'll get into views of Israel. They would say there's going to be a rapture of believers to heaven for seven years

during which that time of tribulation will happen and which the nation state of Israel from the Old Testament will be completely recapitulated and restarted in its biblical form. And then they would then go to the same thousand years that historic believers would believe in. With that, as I mentioned earlier, they make a strong distinction between the church and Israel. So all the promises given to biblical Israel in the Old Testament have to be literally fulfilled. The exact amount of land, the temple, everything has to be fulfilled literally. Let me come now to their views of Israel. Really, for the first 1,600 years of Christian history, pre-mill, Amil, and post-Mil really believe the same.

thing about ethnic Jews, and that is that there will be a mass conversion at the end of time, as seen in Romans 11 is where they would point to for that. But then in terms of the idea of a nation state of Israel, the first 1,600 years, there really wasn't much conception of that. It was very rare. There are people there, but I sometimes joke, it's like trying to find a vegetarian and a barbecue restaurant. It's like they're there, but they're rare and hard to find. Is it because it ceased to be a nation? Some ways make that argument, but interestingly enough, things began to switch in 16, 1700s before it was, and there began to arise a belief that it had to be reconstituted. Which, by the way, is why when it was reconstituted in 1948, that view exploded. And I'll be very honest, that's very compelling. It's extremely compelling. And so to your point, the fact that it's new doesn't mean that it's necessarily wrong. Because you could point to that, although it's funny because a lot of people who believe that also believe that prophecy ceased.

Different discussions. There's a different discussion for another time. We're not going to. Can open up that can of worms. We're better to say, Carlos. Yeah, and I was just going to say, when I first heard about the whole Israel thing, not being a nation, and then it became a nation after how many a thousand plus years, it's like, wait, what? So an important thing, classical or historic pre-millenials, would many of them, if not most, would believe that Israel would be reconstituted, but after Jesus's return. But starting the 16 or 1700s, post-millials, some amels, some premils began believing

that, no, there needs to be a reconstituted Israel. dispensations took this in the 1800s and really ran with it. Again, the point of the say that's wrong, I think you said it well, Pastor Joss, which is to say we have to be careful not to say it's the view, because for 1,600 years, Christians read the same verses and they did not come to the same conclusions. And so depending then upon how you approach the scripture, in large part, you're going to determine how you approach the modern state of Israel. So dispensations would view the modern state of Israel.

Yeah, let's get into this. So are you going to, let's take each position and go. So here's how that position affects your view of relationship to modern-day Israel. So a post-mill, ah-mill, and actually many pre-mills would say, really what I would say, because I'm going to put my cards in the table so people just know. I definitely lean more ah-mill. But many of us would say the creation of the modern state of Israel has no prophetic significance, meaning that this did not have to happen for the end to happen,

and that the nation state of Israel did not biblically have to be reconstituted for God to fulfill his promise. Do you agree with that? Yes. Like it had no bearing what happened in... No prophetic significance. Follow me for a second. What we would say, what many if not most would say, is that it has strategic importance,

both for the protection of the Jewish people after World War II and including today. It has strategic geopolitical political importance for democracy. And if we believe there's going to be a mass conversion of Jews from Romans 11, it would seem in God's providence a very strategic thing to happen because you have a mass concentration of them in one place.

And so even I think that's pretty much what Al Moller was saying in his video is that the modern state of Israel is not the biblical Israel, but it contains Israel. And it's just very strategic for God's purposes for Israel. So most premels, al-Mil, and post-Mills would say, hey, the modern state of Israel is not the biblical Israel. It is not necessary for the end to happen. But it is strategic in what God wants to.

happen. Almost in the same way where it's like Christianity being born into the Roman Empire was strategic for the spread of the gospel. The creation of the nation state of Israel where a whole bunch of ethnically Jewish people would come back to one place. That could be extremely

strategic for a revival and awakening of faith among ethnic Jews. That's an analogy. One more thing now goes to the the dismissation of how they would view it. Is that for those groups they would not then necessarily not support Israel. So I don't want people to hear, oh, so if you're those groups, you don't support modernism.

No, I hold in my all-millennial view where there's no necessarily prophetic significance of the creation of modern state of Israel, but I broadly support Israel. It doesn't mean I agree with everything they do, but I do broadly support. I don't want people to think like, oh, that's your option that is one or the other. And I broadly support Israel. What does that mean specifically? Oh, it just means I believe they have the right to exist. I believe, for the most part, we should have, they should be our allies. I want to see ethnic Jewish people experience blessing.

Yeah. You know that kind of thing. Oh, 100%. 100%. And even for example, for me personally, I don't know not all Christians agree on this, but me personally, for example, their conflict with Iran. I would support them and say, yeah, we need to

take Iran's nuclear capabilities by any means necessary. Let me just interject this. Like, it should not be controversial to not want the guy who chanced death to America not to have nuclear weapons. Like, that should not be controversial. And I got to be careful because so many fans of women's some of the same people who think that is controversial, the same people who think we should

take weapons away from people because they're dangerous. Defund the police, but give them a nuclear weapon. This seems to be really consistent a logic reason here. Okay. Dispensations would say, hey, the reconstitution of Israel has to happen and that it happening in 1948 was of prophetic significance, that it was a necessary step for God's plans and revelation to happen. I'll just read the verse because it is like, dude, it is, this is like, okay, so this is Isaiah 668. The prophes, this seems to prophesy that that leans into dispensational view. Okay. Who has heard such a thing?

Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her son. So it seems to prophesy that there would come. a day where in one day the nation of Israel would be reconstituted. And then that's what happened. And I'm so glad Pastor Josh you said that.

Because one thing I forgot to say earlier is that with each of these views, each of them has strong scriptures to support them. Each of them has scripture that I threw at the person holding the view. They would try to give an explanation. And those of us who don't agree with them would look at them like, that was weak sauce that you just threw back. Can I just say something on this point? All right.

So I've got a theory on this. and you guys feel free to disagree. Bible scholars point out that the, actually not Bible scholars, the book of first Corinthians points out that the Old Testament prophecies about the first coming of Christ were written in intentionally vague ways so that you could read them and before the prophecies were fulfilled, you wouldn't be able to tease out the specifics and the order of specifically how where and in what sequence the prophecies would be fulfilled.

Fascinatingly, the Bible says the reason God wrote them with that vagueness was so that demons wouldn't be able to figure out how he was going to accomplish salvation because if they figured it out, they would have tried to stop it. I'm going to read this passage. This is like super meta, like, you know, awesome stuff. This is 1st Corinthians. No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden. Talking about these prophecies. It's like the meaning was hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. none of the rulers of this age,

talking about demonic principalities and powers, understood it because if they had, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord of Glory. So he was saying the oldest prophecies about the first coming of Jesus were written with intentional vagueness, so you would not be able to beforehand tease out how, when, hair, what sequence?

Wow. On purpose. Personal opinion, I think the prophecies about the second coming of Christ carry some measure of the same type of vagueness, possibly for the exact same reason. Wow. Yes.

You're allowed to disagree with me. I know I was tempted to open up a can, but I can already feel my spirit, but I'm talking about a can't a can of what? Well, so readings of Revelation even get into this because I mentioned, you know, if you're a pre-millennial, either dispensational or classic, you would have more of a literal

and more of a futuristic reading of Revelation, that it's the future. Post-millinials actually have more of what's called a preterous or a past reading of Revelation that most of Revelation was accomplished in the first century. 8070. Yeah, except for the last few chapters of Revelation.

By the way, that is at times a bit of the very broad and popular reading of it. Yeah, dude, I'll just say this. If we don't have time to go into it right now, if you're like a super Bible nerd and you want to read about preterism or partial preterism and how a lot of the events of the Book of Revelation

at least seem to have some measure of fulfillment in AD 70 when the temple is destroyed and Jerusalem is raised, like it's a little creepy. When if you unpack even, like, for example, the beast in 666 and how, like, if you can make it, make sense of a lot of the things that happen. Nero, the 666 thing, West Huff just posted about this. Like, we don't have time to go into all this.

I got, I told him, but you got to tell us now. Well, I'll get some of it wrong, but Jewish people ascribed a lot of mathematic significance to letters. So that was like a big thing. So something about how, I think it's like Nero emperor or something like that. that the, that six, that the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the numeric values assigned to Nero or emperor, something like that, they add up to 666. So a lot of partial preterists or preterists think that when it says, Mark of the Beast, six, exists, it was referring to Nero, who's the one that obviously helped with the AD 70 destruction of the Temple in Israel. Wow. And even with that is, the beast arises from the sea. If you're reading the book of John, word.

did the emperors come from? The sea. The beast died of a wound to the head or seemed to die. Nero died of a wound to the next slash head. There were the beast was going to come back. There were rumors that Nero was going to return. So you could read it and it seems to make a lot of sense. Then there's what all millennials would see is more of what's called an idealist view, that it's more of a timeless depiction of a spiritual struggle. They definitely believe that Jesus' return is going to happen, but see more of it as a timeless struggle. And then the book of Revelation in their reading would be basically the same events repeated over and over from different angles. goes in with different symbols. I personally am more of an eclecticist, which has become around a hybrid

is the more kind of street level term, where we would say the Book of Revelation did happen, it does happen, and it will happen. I agree. Yeah, agree. I think every Christian should believe that. Yeah. And so I feel my spirit. I know we'd probably, we'd be coming off these different places to bring us back a few things here. Number one, for those of you are listening to this and maybe one like, man, how does this apply to me? Always, the most practical thing I can do with my life is to leverage it for the purposes and plans of God. Amen. So if I am wanting to know what God is doing, man, some of in times helps me know. What is he, what is his ultimate go?

And I want to be a part of that. And the other thing, as I'd say, is no matter what your view is on this, you said this earlier, we should all go out at the end of this and share the gospel people. I actually have a rule sometimes with friends that if we're debating this issue, I say, hey, when was the last time we've shared the gospel, someone or invited someone to church? And we're not going to talk about this again until we do that. But then the last thing I say is there's a question. I think careful if I don't want to get ahead of you, Carlos. but people sometimes ask, well, do I have a biblical obligation or do I have to biblically support the modern state of Israel? I personally like to say is I think I would make the argument that you should, but I don't like to use the word must.

And I'll kind of bring this all together. And for these reasons, historically, Christians have said that if I use a word like must, like there's a biblical obligation, it has to be explicit scripturally or by good and necessary reason be deduced from scripture. So for example, if I say, do I have a biblical obligation to love my wife of Christ, love the church? Yes. Yep. To not steal. Yes. Do I have a biblical obligation to believe in the Trinity?

Yes. But the Trinity is not, that word's not in the Bible, but it can be deduced from good and necessary reason to be in the Bible. So those are things that we say that you must. Like if you don't, you are sinning. The reason I wouldn't be careful to say you have to believe a certain thing about the modern sturdy of Israel is because, as we just talked for the last 15, 20 minutes, because it's tied to these views, as you've said, that have been debated. through the last 2,000 years, if I say one of those views that you must believe it, I'm basically, this is the only way to interpret it,

and that if you don't interpret it this way, you're sinning. And so that's why, personally, the way I like to say, is I think you should. I can make the argument that we should. I just want to be careful to say, you must support everything they do. And that goes back to theological triage. Hey, man, first tier, second tier, third tier,

how are we going to treat these things? I think that's important. Let me make a couple, just say a couple finalized things. And then let's just, hey, final comments, let's start, and let's try to do this. Like, all right, again, our goal is live free. So like, let's finish thinking, all right, how does this form us as men and women of God,

building families that serve the Lord as a disciples? Let me just say a couple other comments. Because we didn't read it anywhere else, and I think it's very significant, let me read the passage that makes most theologians, almost all, reject what's called supersessionism that believes that there is a complete, for lack of a better term,

replacement. I know they hate that term. Replacement of ethnic Israel with the church. Most theologians reject that view. I would say that's right. Most theologians, definitely said. The vast majority. Romans 11. The end of it says this. There's so much I could read here. I'm just going to read the end.

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery brothers. Again, note how frequently the word mystery is here. We should have some humility. around some prophetic vagueness. A partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Multiple passages of the Bible say this was God's sovereign plan that we might not fully understand, but that he intentionally allowed, yes, I'm going to use that word, allowed the hearts of Israel to be hardened towards faith in Christ in order to accomplish the spread of the gospel among Gentiles.

By the way, We got a Scottish dude. I don't know what I am. I'm like a Missouri mutt and an El Salvadorian. Three Gentiles. Let me just say like, I get a little emotional. I am very grateful for the sovereignty of God allowing the gospel go to the Gentiles.

Like, that's why I'm here. And watch this. And in this way, all Israel will be saved. As it is written, the deliverer will come from Zion. He will banish ungodliness. from Jacob, and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins. So it seems like he's saying, the hardening of Israel that leads to the inclusion of many Gentiles will eventually result in a mass salvation in the future of ethnic Jews so much so that people will say things like,

dude, it seems like all of them are getting saved. All Israel is what it says here. All right. Now, let's keep going. Verse 28, as regards to the gospel. there, enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, in other words, God chose the ethnic people of Israel back in Genesis 12 and 15. As regards election, they are beloved. So he's saying those ethnic people

are still beloved in some sense. So that's not total supersessionism in my view, okay? For the sake of their forefathers, this is what's important, for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. So the promises that he gave to those ethnic people are not revocable. He's the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Let me keep going, just as you at one time were disobedient to God, but now have received mercy because of their disobedience. So they too have now become disobedient in order that by mercy shown to you, they may also now receive mercy. So do you get it? saying like God's strategy is to make the ethnic Jewish people jealous. There's another

passage that says that, to make them jealous. Man, God is obviously working and saving and doing special things for all those Gentiles. We want to get back in on that. That's like essentially the Bubba version of that thing. Oh, the depths of the riches, the wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable are his judgments, how inscrutable his ways. And I'll just finish there. Even the apostle Paul is gone, bro, I don't even understand all this. Honestly. We ought to have some humility. If the apostle Paul is going, bro, I don't even get it.

That's fine. Well, then it's okay for us not to get everything. Great point. So I wanted to say that. Last thing I'll say is I do think the scriptures should lead modern day Christians to, I don't know if prioritizes the right word, but value evangelism of Jewish people. And I'll just go back to Romans chapter one says this. for the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

And then it says, first to the Jew and then to the Greek. And you'll notice that is the Apostle Paul's evangelism strategy throughout the book of Acts. He goes straight to the synagogue, preaches the Jews. Once the Jews reject him, then he goes to the Gentiles. So I think that's what we ought to be doing. That is, by the way, that's like why Lake Point has established an international partner church in Jerusalem, King of Kings. We did that because of that verse. first to the Jew, then to the Greek. All right, final thoughts here. If somebody's

listening to this, they're going, I talked for a while, so I'm going to defer to you in the human here first. Well, back to just very practical. I think, you know, I'm here. Honestly, like, for people that are very passionate about conversations like this, there's something really humbling about hitting a topic like this that's so complex. And then you're like, man, because there's a lot of people that are very outspoken about this right view or, oh, you're so wrong and you know you're going to hell because you believe in that one thing and you know um i think there's something very uh you need to you need to consider that if the apostle paul writes romans 11 and after that he says but all the depth of the riches of the wisdom and the knowledge of god

and how unsearchable his judgments are and who could know his path like if that's the apostle paul you know you should have some humility and i'll say for me even as we were you know hey let's talk about this issue man let me let me let me study and let me the most of the most of the most you study, the more you realize how much you do not know. And there should be a posture of humility and an openness, really, to learn before you're here to, you know, fight in the common section or whatever. And so, again, that's just for me. Again, just a great reminder of, man, I'm here to learn. So Paul, thank you for being here. My pleasure. I mean, for me, I'll just pick on something I said earlier, that this should be

a topic why it can create passionate discussion. It should not create division or distraction. And distraction from what I'd say from our mission, Pastor Josh, he's done this about. I'll just expand it. I love in 2nd Peter, Peter is actually talking about the return of Jesus. And some people are saying, oh, he's not come back, so he's not coming back. Like, oh, this is all made up. And Peter says, hey, don't confuse these things. Don't say that God is slow because he says in verse 9, the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. And so sometimes when we look at the state of the world or things happen in our lives, you know, Christians may say something like there or at least feel it.

Like, Jesus, what do you wait for? Like, come back. It is getting bad. And I would say there's times where I have felt that or I've heard that. And when I read this first, I like to actually imagine sometimes Jesus looking down and said, I'm waiting on you. Yeah, that's good. I'm waiting on you if you're an unbeliever to come to repentance.

Because when Jesus comes back, for those who don't know him as Lord and Savior, it's the end for them. That's right. And they don't get another chance. That's right. And so I'd say, I'd say, Jesus is looking at saying, I'm waiting for you in the sense of you meeting believers and saying, I'm waiting for you to go take the gospel to them. And it can be to people who are Jewish, but also I just say you're talking about how does this work for people just in their regular lives? It's to take the gospel to anyone who's close to you, but far from God. And that can be sometimes the closest people to us that are far from God are the kids in our homes if you're a mom and a dad. So it's, man, bringing them up and the Lord and sharing the gospel with them.

It can be our neighbors. It can be whoever your one more is. I just say, hey, wherever you land, we should, in terms of this particular discussion, we should then all in the same place. Wherever we land, we're going out and sharing the gospel with as many people as we can so they can be prepared to meet Jesus whenever and however he returns.

Amen. Jesus is coming back in glory. Today we pray, let your kingdom come and yet let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Amen. Pastor Josh, would you pray for us? Lord, thank you for the confidence and the rest and the peace that we have knowing that you win, you will make all your

enemies a footstool for your feet like your word says. I pray, Lord, that us as men and women of God, that we would be prepared, that none of us would be caught off guard, that we would be walking in a quick repentance to walk in holiness before you. Because when you return on that day, we will wish for nothing more than that we had leveraged our lives for the glory of God and the advance of your kingdom. So Father, help us to live this day in light of that day. Father, I do. I just feel compelled to do it after reading the verses.

I eagerly pray for the salvation of the Jewish people. I pray, Lord, that surely I shall see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. so like I'm just going to ask God just because I want to see it. Would you like please do it in my lifetime so that we would all, we'd start reading news stories and seeing headlines of mass revival and salvation among your people, the ethnic Jewish people. Father, would you please continue to pour out blessing on all of the children of the promise? Lord, sons and daughters of Abraham by faith.

And God just thank you. Thank you. Haste the day in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review, and share the podcast, and don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Point Church online every weekend and find more resources at lakepoint.church slash live free. We'll see you next time.