Live Free with Josh Howerton - Can a Christian LOSE Their Salvation? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: July 27, 2026

Can a Christian lose their salvation? What does the Bible actually teach about eternal security, perseverance, and genuine saving faith? In this episode of LIVE FREE, Pastors Josh Howerton, Paul Cunningham, and Carlos Erazo tackle one of Christianity's most debated questions by walking through Scripture—not opinions. Together they examine John 10, Romans 8, Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10, James 5, and other key passages to explain the difference between genuine faith and superficial belief, why difficult warning passages matter, and how believers can have true assurance in Christ. If you've ever struggled with doubts, wondered whether you've done enough, or questioned if someone who walked away from the faith was ever truly saved, this conversation offers biblical clarity and gospel hope. In this episode you'll discover: What saving faith really is Whether a Christian can lose their salvation How to understand Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 The difference between conviction and condemnation Why your confidence belongs in Christ—not yourself Whether you're new to faith or have followed Jesus for years, this episode will encourage you to rest in God's promises while continuing to pursue Him faithfully. Stand firm. Think biblically. Live free. 🍿Join us in person for At the Movies, our annual four-week series using scenes from popular films to bring biblical truths to life! Learn more and find a campus at https://lakepointe.church/at-the-movies/ ✝️ Find out what DID make it into the sermon: Join us in-person for At The Movies!  💬 This week’s giveaway: Comment HAT 🧢 Want a Live Free hat of your own? Visit LiveFree.shop 📲 Looking to grow deeper in your faith? Check out the Lakepointe App to access our Discipleship Guide, daily Bible reading plan, and more. Text APP to 20411 to download

Can a Christian lose their salvation? John 10, 26 to 29, I sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me, and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish. The sign that you've been married to Christ isn't that you never fall, is that you keep getting back up and trying again. Well, hey, Lifree Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas.

But the Liv Free Nation is spread all over. the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this, we want to invite you to take a simple next step and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook and our church online platform

and it's more than just watching a service. There are a live host in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start,

Church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend, and now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. My name is Carlos Arrasso, and today I have the pleasure and the joy of being here with Pastor Josh Howardton and Pastor Paul Cunningham. Sleep Deprived. Sleep Deprived. Who just came from the airport.

Hey, welcome. Thanks for joining us today. Oh, dude. We changed our flight to get back for Live Free. Yes, we did. Now, Carlos, I was recently made aware that you speak French. Yeah, I do. Carlos. How do you say, let's kick this big.

How do you say, let's kick this big in French? First of all, let me give you a caveat. All right. I learned how to speak it in middle school, okay? So it's very rusty. Yes, let's hear it. Let's kick this big in French. Oh, boy, I got to figure out how to say pig.

Hold on. Oh, geez. Holy cow, breaking news. Okay. Dude, that actress, uh, blonde girl. actress famous actress stabbed literally today uh reese uh witherspoon no it's with a knife got him yeah you did got him

thank for joining us today this is this is the second time this week he's done that where i had forgotten that he was going to do it and i was literally intrigued and i was like oh yeah this is what he's doing i saw something was off i like literally like a second after he said, Reese, I'm like, stop. Yes. That's my favorite joke. And I got them on step for three. And I was like, I'm going to get Carlos on the pod.

That is hilarious. I've forgotten you said you were going to do this. I was really intrigued. I'm like, what just happened? I'm like, oh. The lady in the movie that we just, you know, this weekend at the movie? I don't know, man. Hey, don't know a coup de pié at ce cushion.

Wow, that's not going to fit on a hat. All right. What are we talking about today? Hey, man, today we're going to have a great episode. We are going to be asking, can a Christian lose their salvation? And honestly, how do you know if you have a saving faith versus perhaps a fake faith or a superficial faith? We're going to be reacting to a James Tilariko, Paul's favorite person, to react to advocating for reparations for slavery, quote, in his word, because of his faith tradition. That's right.

And should Christian support reparations for slavery? And then we're going to be also sharing a bunch of great gold nuggets on what did I make into the sermon regarding faith. Faith. Faith. By the way, just wrapped up week number three of At the Movies. That's exactly right. Absolutely insane. I haven't seen numbers yet for this weekend through the first two weeks.

Guys, we averaged cramming 38,000 people into the campuses. It's nuts. Hundreds and hundreds of salvations. I never seen anything like it. That's awesome. Listen, we ain't this good. We ain't this good. We ain't this good.

We got one more week. So if you have not made it yet, or if you have, made it in the past three weeks. We'd love to see you in here one more week. Also, after that, by the way, we're excited because we're going to be launching a new sermon series on fighting the good fight. Fight the good fight. Honestly, here's all this is. You're all about fighting. There's a lot of verses about fighting. There's a lot of violent. There's a lot of verse about fighting. Honestly, what we're

doing was we're going to be studying the book of Second Timothy. At Lake Point, what we decided on this front of this year is the whole theme of the year was this is the year of discipleship. So why Second Timothy? Literally the whole book is just an older guy, disciple and a younger guy. So I was like, you're a discipleship. Let's preach to a book about that. And he gives a command to this young disciple, fight the good fight of faith. So there you go.

Sermon series title, Fight the Good Fight. You guys were just in Wyoming. I was actually just in Michigan and lots of living in nation, literally, all over the place. So shout out to everybody joining. If you are ever in the DFW area and you want to come visit, we'd love to say hi. So come say hi. We got a gift for you as well. We do a giveaway every single week.

So if you're on YouTube or Spotify, go ahead and drop the word hat on the comments, and we will be selecting several winners as well. Here's a fun one for you. And then we'll actually start talking about the Bible up in Jackson Hole. I mean, it was just like everywhere we went. It's like a live free listeners. One of the guys, one of the owners of King Ranch in Texas, is a live free listener. So I forget your name, but shout out.

That was awesome to meet you. So he grabbed me in the girliest coffee shop in all of Jackson Hole. Just took a good coffee, though. Persephone was free. Yeah, it's pretty good. Okay. Can I do a Project Hail Mary thing? Yes.

Okay. Now, I know you did a little of this, but I wasn't in this episode, and I'm going to do it better. He's like, I was going to say, he's like, hey, I know you did it, but I'm going to do it better. No, for real. I'm sure you will. So, no, that's a joke. That's a total joke, Rolos. I was going to say it if you would, but go ahead.

Stop, dude. So, okay, I'm on the plane, two day. And literally the three seats next to me, they're all watching Project Hill Mary. Bro, there is layers in Project Hail Mary. Okay, so here's my thesis. Project Hail Mary is a Christian movie. Oh, wow. Now, watch this.

I like that idea. Watch this. Check this out. Okay. So our Catholic friends are going to love this. So I want to show you some stuff, this like, you watch the movie and you don't realize what just happened to you. So let me give this to you. Okay.

So if you haven't seen Project Hail Mary, let me just connect some dots real quick. So the universe is decaying. That sounds a little familiar, Genesis 3 on. The universe is decaying. and humanity throws up a last chance prayer. And the name of the ship that is dispatched to solve the decay of the universe is the Hail Mary. So you got it right there, okay? Now, next one, the main character that's sent to be the savior of the world, Carlos.

If you look real close on the guy's little patch, his name is Grace. Grace, that's right. So now what do we have? We got Hail Mary, full of grace. Catholics are going to love this one. Okay. So far it's like, well, duh, man. Okay, duh, man.

That's like they named the movie that. Okay, so you go a layer deeper. I'm going to go three layers deeper. You go later deeper. So when he gets up there, who's he meet? He meets Rocky. Okay, now, when you hear that you're like, what's that even mean? For our uninitiated Bible readers, when Jesus establishes the church, he gives Peter, the, remember, our Catholic friends are going to love this, who, our Catholic friends that we disagree with think was the first pope, right?

Right? And they're like, what's Jesus calling? He says, I tell you, you are. Peter, which means rock. Peter is the rock. So now what you have is you have these two guys, next one, who do you have saving the universe together? You have a grace and rocky. You have a Christ figure and you have a Peter figure.

But oh wait, there's more. Okay. So now in Catholic theology in particular, what you have is you have Jesus and Peter working together as a head of the church to save the world. lest you think I'm making something out of nothing, Paul Cunningham. If you look really close, I watch this with the kids, if you look really close,

there is one frame in the entire movie. We're just really fast at through a little party because they're like, we're going to save the world. Check out what the hat says. Look real close. Rocky's hat says savior of the universe. I hadn't seen that one.

Bro, it says savior of the universe. But wait, there's even more. Now, how are they going to save the universe? You literally have a line in the movie where grace the Christ figure, he says, so just so I'm clear, you're asking me right now to, and he uses the phrase, give up my life in order to be the savior of the universe. But wait, there's even more. Now, this is the last layer.

All right. Little theology in Genesis 3, after the fall of humanity, God comes to Eve. Remember, okay, Eve, bookmarked that in your head. and he tells Eve, hey, you are going to be the, you're going to launch the offspring out of you, and one of your offspring is going to come, going to be the serpent crusher, this is going to be the savior of the universe. So in Genesis 3, who is Eve, Eve is the one watch, who will launch the rescue mission, but she will not complete the rescue mission.

Paul and Carlos, in Project Hail Mary, what is the name of the female scientist, who is the one that launches the mission to save the world, but is not the one who actually accomplishes the mission. Well, let me show you. Her name is Eva. Ladies and gentlemen, Project Hail Mary is a Christian movie. Wow. There it was.

Paul totally disagrees, but you know. Just because I did that one time on Home Alone and you came back and proved that. I disagree on Home Alone one time and the rest of my life. I'm known as a skeptic. Yeah, well, that was great. That was great. There is no way. That's just, there's no way.

You know what's interesting? Because I researched this before the director was asked about it. And he said 100% not. Like he did not do any of those things on purpose to my understanding. That's what. So here's my theory on that then. I know you got something. Go ahead.

Actually, isn't that really a theory. It's tongue-in-cheek joke. God has put an eternity in the hearts of men. Yes. So every great story whispers his name. There you go. There you go, man. That's amazing. Hey, if you are here and you have not downloaded our Lake Point app,

you can find our daily Bible reading plan plus a early release of this episode. Text the word app to 20411 or go to Apple or Google Play Store. Hey, nice hat. Bro, you got the new live free hat. I needed something that was like more of my vibe. That's coming soon. That's coming soon. Livefree.shop or text the word hat to 20411 as well. Pastor Josh, I have a question for you. I will allow it. Week three about the movies. I am very intrigued and I really want to know.

I've been waiting for this my whole week. Why did I make it to the sermon? A lot, a lot, man. So this was, honestly, this may have been, this week and next week were my two favorites of the series. This one, the whole deal, it was about faith. The movie that we used as illustration, by the way, we do not preach movies.

We use movies to illustrate biblical truths. So what we were doing, the movie was The Young Woman of the Sea, which I had never seen before, by the way. It's fantastic. Bro, it's honestly, amazing movie. It's great. Like, that's one of those movies I've never even heard of. And I was like, that was an amazing movie.

So it was all about faith. Okay. So, and by the way, I got this outline from Craig Rochelle, but it really highlights four things, four types of faith. And when you look in the Bible there, you start to see these themes of four specific types of faith. Honestly, any disciple, you're going to need these types of faith in order to walk with Jesus and fulfill the good works that you create in advance for you to accomplish. So what you got is the four were the faith to start small, do not despise the day of small beginnings. Number two, the faith. to face opposition.

Number three, the faith to endure when it hurts. Number four, the faith to finish what God started. Okay. Now, what I really want, like, honestly, man, the limitation on any of that in the movie stuff is it's just like there's so much I want to get in. So like, let me just do a couple theological things that I wish we had time to do

that are just, they're good for the soul of a disciple. Okay. Number one, it's real, theologians do this a lot in church history where they'll define what saving faith is. And this is really important. I'm going to use Latin words. I think this is originally Augustine, Noticia Senses, fiducius, fiducius.

I think it's originally Augustine. You can look it up. But theologians historically, what they've noticed is that in the Bible, you clearly have types of faith that are not saving faith. In fact, we're coming to this in a second when we talk about whether or not you can lose your salvation. The linchpin of the question that Paul's going to deep dive on here in a second is you can't read the Bible.

no way to read the Bible without the reality of some people have faith in some way and are not finally saved. So then the question that raises is how is that possible? Well it all boils down to your definition of the word faith. What does faith mean? So let me just do this real quick. Historically theologians have said that there are three aspects of saving faith and that for someone to have what theologians refer to as a salvific faith, man really all three, have to be present. Okay? So here's what you got. The, um, the, the, uh, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, uh, the Latin words are noticia, a census and fiduciia. This is, this is like super helpful. All right. Noticia, a census and fiducius. So

notitia, it just means knowledge. So where we get the word knowledge. So this is your awareness of a fact. Okay. Like, you know, Lake Point Church is in Dallas, Texas. That's a fact. It's your awareness of a, I would say it like this, awareness of a claim. Okay. A census is a I'm not just aware of that claim. I agree that that claim is true. So Noticia and Asensius, uh, census. And then theologians say there's a third aspect of faith, and unless you have this third aspect of faith,

you do not have a saving faith. And the third aspect of faith is fiduciia, and it just means trust, okay? So now, think about what you got. You got Noticia, I am aware of a fact, a census, I agree with a fact, fiduciia, I place the fact. I place the entire weight of my life on that fact.

I trust that fact, okay? Now, I'll just do this real quick, and you guys can riff on this. If you want to add anything, and then I want to do a couple other things. What's interesting is if you read your New Testament, you're going to notice that there are all three categories of people. All right. So, for instance, you got Judas, and I may talk about this here in a second, we get to loss of salvation stuff. Judas had Noticia. He was aware of Jesus claimed to be Lord.

he did not have assent or trust. Judas never affirms the Lordship of Jesus. In fact, he strikingly goes out of his way to avoid affirming the Lordship of Jesus. So he had not a notisius or fiducius. Honestly, the example of someone who has knowledge and assent but not trust, demons. Yes. So the book of James says that even the demons believe and they shudder. They shudder.

So demons, they're aware of Jesus claimed to be Lord. Number two, they agree that Jesus is Lord, but they do not have fiducius. They don't place the weight of their trust in that. Okay. So demons. And then the example of saving faith, Noticia, Assensis, Feducia, is Peter or any converted person. And that's somebody who says this.

I know that you say your Lord. I agree that you are Lord and I will follow you unto my death because I trust that my Lord can save me and raise me from the dead. That is saving faith. Now, we'll just say this dude, being a pastor in the Bible Belt,

you got a ton of people who they have knowledge and they even have agreement, but very frankly, they do not live their lives in obedience because they do not trust the lordship of Jesus. And to that, I would just give a warning. two-thirds faith will send you to hell. Yes. That's a very important thing to be aware of.

Anything you want to riff on there before I just keep going? Yeah, I think in 2023, there was a poll that was made that found that 66% of Americans claimed to be Christian. In 2020. In 2023. That's right. So that's literally like two-thirds of our country claiming to follow Jesus and put their trust in Jesus. Now, what you just said makes a lot of sense because especially, you know, a lot of people that are, very familiar, especially in this country with Christianity, with the Bible.

They'll say things like, man, I believe in God, but like you said, even the demons believe in God. Actually, demons theology is probably better than your theology and mine. Definitely. They have that intellectual assent, assent and noticia, but they don't put their trust in Jesus. So you've got to be careful. It's not just enough to believe in God. You have to actually know who he is. Some people would say, yeah, well, my parents have faith.

Therefore, I'm a Christian. Well, the Bible says God has children. It doesn't say he has grandchildren. Your parents' faith is great that they have it. you need to make your faith your own. People would say, well, I was born in the Bible Belt, or I was born in a Christian home. That's great that you were born there.

You need to be born again. That's what Jesus said. Well, I have a cross on my house. I have a cross on my neck. Well, you need to carry that cross on your back. Is what Jesus is to deny yourself. Follow me and be my disciple. And then people would say, well, I'm really familiar with the scriptures.

I actually know a lot of theology. I actually been to Bible school and I have a lot of degrees in theology. Therefore, I'm a Christian. Yeah, but are you familiar with the author? You know the Holy Spirit. Do you, does the things that grieve the Holy Spirit grieve your heart as well? Are you led not by your emotions, but by what the Holy Spirit wants you to do? And so we live it right now in a time where it seems like also Christianity has permeated the culture.

And there's a lot that is really good about it. A lot of things that are really good about Christianity permitting the culture. But even more important than that is whether Christianity has permeated your soul. And that is where you get the three types of faith as well. And I think that's important for people. It's so good. Yes, man. Amen.

Just one encouragement, like you said, all three. three are essential to have saving faith. But I will say once you have all three, I think you need to know that the determining thing and the most important thing is actually not the third factor, the trust. And here's what I mean, just follow me for a second, is because I just know people that have, even though they're genuine believers, they've genuinely been saved, they have moments of doubt or moments where they just don't have complete trust in God. They have some faith, but not total, like, not total faith. They're just having kind of wavering in their doubt and their emotions and everything. And so we're not going to show the video to save time, but a few weeks I shared in our last

podcast, I did a zip line. And I do not like zip lines. And I had all these aspects of faith that you mentioned. I knew that the cable and that my harness could hold way more weights than I weigh. So I had a knowledge of it. I assented. I agreed that it could hold me. But you didn't actually see that third part, that trust until I was going to put my weight on it and go across. But here's the reality. Once I start going across, do you think I was like, oh, yeah, this is awesome. No, if you actually watch me, I'm like holding on for dear life. And like my wife says, baby, I love you. I don't even look at her. I can't. I'm so scared because it's like 200, 250 feet in the air. And like I'm just going to my mind of like these images of me all of a sudden

just falling. In that moment, what was holding me up there? It wasn't me. That's right. It was the reality of that number one thing, that it was strong enough to hold me. That was the most important thing in that moment. The reason I say is you have to have all three to have saving faith. But in the moments where your faith is wavering, the moments where you have some doubts and you're not sure, you're scared to take a step of faith, whatever it is. The most important thing right then is not the strength of your faith, but it's the strength of your God. That's right. It's not the strength of the subject of faith. It's the strength of the object of the faith. It's just an encouragement for you if you ever did in the moment. Here's why this is really important, man. So actually

leads into one of the other things. I wish I'd got in a sermon. So there are a lot of people, man, especially if you come, people that come from charismatic backgrounds, I think, who, man, honestly, kind of the vibe they pick up is, man, it's the strength of my faith that saves me or activates something in God. And, dude, you kind of get this vibe of like, man, you know, I think I have like level two faith. And if I had level eight faith, well, then I'd be a little more in with God. And, man, maybe you would work more on my behalf.

And honestly, I think there's some people who are like, man, is that, if you said, hey, you did the old precludea on a scale of one to 10, how confident are you making it in heaven? And honestly, they'd go, well, I have a level three strength phase, so maybe a three. And if I had level nine faith, they'd be a little nine. So, dude, I love this so much. So let me say it and then explain it. The theology of faith in the New Testament is that it is not the strength of your faith that saves you. It is the object of your faith that saves you.

Okay. So this is why a lot of people miss what Jesus is doing. When Jesus tells that parable and he says, hey, if you have faith the size of a, must-st-tree. Musters seed. He says the smallest of all seeds. He's using phenomenological language. It's not, you know, all the... Faith is as mustard seed, you can tell this amount of moving it. It'll move. His point is, hey, bro, it's actually not about how strong or big your faith is. It's about what your faith is in. And, dude, okay, I love that. I didn't plan to do this. So, you know that, have you ever seen... Actually, I won't do that.

The DA Carson. The DA Carson. Bro. It's so good, man. It's like one of the best preaching clips like ever. Okay, so like, he uses this analogy. So the thing about this. He goes, have you seen, have you seen it, Carlos? I haven't seen it. It's so good. Well, I was going to surprise you. So he used this analogy. He's with us, man. Go ahead. He used this analogy and he goes, hey, man, if you were to go back to the beginning of Exodus on the first Passover when God was like, hey, slaughter the lamb, put the blood on the doorpost, and the angel of death will pass over and won't take your firstborn son. And dude, he gives this, it's so good, man. I like, every time I watch it, I finish and it's like, Okay, so he goes, he goes, imagine there's two Israelite dads the night before the first Passover.

And I think he calls him Smith and Brown. Oh, bro, I haven't heard this one. Oh, bro, this is going to be so good. Okay. All right. Listen, he goes, imagine, Carlos, I'm going to tell it to you. Oh, go ahead. He goes, imagine there's two Israelite dads the night of the first Passover, Smith and Brown.

And they both have heard, blood on the doorposts, angel of death is coming, going to take your first four and son. And Carson goes, hey man, the first guy, Smith, Brown walks up to Smith, and he's like, man, what do you think about this? What do you think about all this blood of the lamb on the doorpost thing? And Smith goes, I don't know, man. I don't know. Sounds a little weird to me. Easy for other people to have faith that, you know, about the, you know, Angel of Death passing over. You got three kids.

If you lose one, you're fine, I only got one kid, you know, doing all this stuff. I don't know. But he's like, you know what? just in case I'm going to slaughter a lamb and put the blood over the doorposts. And he does. And then he asked Brown, what do you think, Brown?

What do you think about it? And Brown says, bring it on. I believe in the promises of God. My God will never fail. By God will never fail me. And so that night, both those guys go with two very different levels of faith

and they slay the lamb and they put the blood over the doorposts. And then Carson pauses for like 10 seconds. And he goes, which one did the angel of death pass over that night? And the answer is obviously both. Both. Why? Because death did not pass over on the grounds of the intensity of their faith, but on the object of their faith, the blood of their faith.

the blood of the slave lamb. And then he goes, he starts quoting to him in the clip, he goes, I have no other argument, I need no other plea. It is enough that Jesus died and that he died for me. Wow. Come on. If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, if you'll just wiggle a little pinky toe in God's direction in Christ, then he's going to close the gap.

Why? Because it's not dependent on the intensity of your faith, but on the strength of faith. Now, can I let me rifle through a couple of things. You guys know, yeah, yeah, just and also, you know, because we live in some places in a post-secular post-Christian, make sure the object of your faith is Jesus or make sure the object of your faith is strong enough to sustain you because it is not enough then to have faith in the universe or in humanity or in good vibes. You know, only Jesus can save you. Right. It's just the whole thing. It's like, some people are like, man, you know, it really doesn't matter what you believe in as long as your faith is sincere.

It's like, well, actually, no, man. You can be sincere and sincerely wrong. That's right. It's like if I'm drowning in my pool and Hudson throws me a cinder block, I can have all the faith I want to have that damn cinder block. I'm going to the ground if I trust that thing. If I zip lined on a piece of floss, I would have died. That's a good analogy. The last thing I wanted to do, dude, I had to cut this like two minutes before shooting this and it just killed me.

So this is like, it's the, we will. never understand the level to which faith, it activates the power of God. And dude, I'm care you are. You can, you can try to theology your way out of this all you want. Everywhere in the Bible, faith activates power. I'll give some examples and then I'll do my very favorite one. Okay. So Joshua 3, the children of Israel are passing over into the land of Canaan. And it's, if you're watching that passage, pay attention real close. It says the second that the leaders, their feet, touch the water. So dude, the thing's in flood stage

and God goes, hey, walk. But he doesn't do the miracle until they take the step. Same thing, Moses is in front of the Red Sea. God tells them what's going to happen. It's not until he raises the staff in faith that God parts the Red Sea.

Luke 1714. Really interesting passage. Jesus healed a bunch of lepers and he tells them, hey, I'm going to heal you, go show yourselves the priest. And dude, if you read that passage, you got to watch close, bro. because it says, quote, as they went, they were cleansed.

So they're not healed till they take the steps in faith. Jesus goes back to Nazareth, where he grows up, little hicktown. And if you pay attention, it says, it does not say he would not do any miracles there. And, dude, honestly, I don't even totally know how to do the theology on this. I'm just, I believe my Bible. It says he could not. It says he could not do any miracles there. Okay. And then here's my favorite one. All right. If you're a listener and you never heard this,

this is like my favorite one. So here's what I'm going to do. Numbers 13. You got that whole deal where Joshua was sending the 12 spies into Canaan, right? This is, again, which faith activates power God. And they send the 12 spies in and they spy out the land, they see all the giants, you know all the deal. They come back and they give a report. Okay. And they come back and like, man, there's some big old dead gum giants in there and what are we going to do about it? Now, I'm going to make a point here. Okay. Ten of the spies come back and they're like, ain't no way. Ain't a way.

We don't got this, is what they say. And they're like, let's not go in. There's two of the guys who they have faith. And they're like, hey, man, it doesn't matter. God's with us. Okay. Now, I want you guys, I'm going to read you 12 names. I love doing this so much.

I'm going to read you 12 names. When I say a name that you have met someone who actually had that name, I want you to let me know. Okay. All right. Here's the names in 12 spice. All right. Shamoa.

fat, palti, Gadiel, these baby names are available, Gadi, Amiel, Cether, Nabi, Giu-E-L, Joshua. Yes. Caleb. Yes. Okay.

Watch. The only people who get remembered are the people who walk by faith. That's the point. Okay, nobody gets remembered who lives by fear. because fear will keep you from your calling, and what it will do is it will erase your legacy of faith before it ever happens. So what you got to get down deep in yourself,

it actually does matter that we become people who walk by faith. It matters. It's good. Okay? Right. Well, I was going to give an example. Can I give an example?

I'm going to give an example. And then actually, I want you guys, I'm asking you in a second, because like little targets I think are helpful for people. Would you guys just real quick give a, like 30, I'd like each of us, 30 second story, a time in our life and was like, dude, I had to,

I had to walk by faith in that moment. All right, so I'm coming back to you. So I want to give a shout out to somebody that did what I just said, okay? This may become a segment on Live Free. We'll call it Disciple of the Week, maybe. So here's where I'm coming. I saw this and it's like my favorite thing I saw.

So last week, the most influential Christian in America, I don't think it was like some celebrity pastor or author. I think it was a 58-year-old weatherman in a tiny town in Texas. Okay, now I'm going to show you this and do when I saw it, it was one of those makes your eyes sweat. This is a guy walking by faith, okay? So here's what's going on. I'm getting ready to show you this, okay?

What's going on here is there's a couple weeks ago, we have these huge floods coming in Texas, big deal, okay? This dude gets on here and he's just the weatherman on his local station. Okay, so all this stuff's coming. But he's a Christian dude, okay? So in the middle of this thing coming, watch what this guy does. I want to see this real quick.

Look at the time of day, and there's just a lot of people that would be traveling in this area, traveling home for the evening, traveling to work. St. Hedwig, China Grove, right over Highway 87, right at 1604. Number of motors here.

So Lord, I pray for, protection, God, your sovereignty is what we lean into in moments like this. That drivers stay aware, stay alert, that you give them wisdom, bless these drivers with wisdom, keep them safe. Amen. Put angels around them of protection as they travel. Thank you, Lord. Wow.

We're just going to get you home safely. This will be lasting for another 30 minutes at least, it looks like. That's it, dude. That's it. I love it so much. Great. So here's, I'm watching. It's effortless. It was just flawless. And, you know, I'm watching this. And who wants you to, that's a guy who just decided, you know what? I'm walking by faith. So it's like, dude, it's that a great commission. People always, you know, go there for and make disciples. And they think, oh, I got to go to Nigeria. No, you don't. You just got to go to work. You just got to go to work and decide I'm out on Team Jesus. And all this guy did, I love it so much. It's like, most influential, everyone, mega viral, most influential Christian America, not some conference speaker.

a normal 58-year-old Christian disciple just going, I'm showing up today and I'm walking by faith. And as you see it, you're like, hey, man, let your light so shine before, man, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your father in heaven. That's all it took, man. Wow. Wow. That's all it took, bro. That's amazing.

I love it. That's the best. That's amazing. Wow. I love it. Okay. So let's rapid fire this real quick. And then I want to talk, can a Christian lose their salvation?

We're going to deep dive this. Yes. Because there's a bit of a, I mean, there's very significant. theological attention around this. So, you know, we really didn't prep this, but I think, like, these targets give people handles. Yeah. So Carlos, let's start with you.

Okay. Moment in your life, you had to walk by faith. I love what you said about faith and how we, you know, you don't remember those that do not live by faith. Every Christian is called to live by faith. Hebrews 11 also says that without faith that is impossible to please God. So this is something I actually think about a lot in my life because every season I kind of audit my life

and kind of where we are at. Because if it is impossible to please God without faith, the question is, what are you doing right now in your life that actually requires faith? I think when you kind of do some progress in your life, I have some progress in your life, there's a point where you kind of get comfortable in some areas and things just kind of go well.

And you're kind of comfortable. And so I always kind of want to ask myself, what are some of those areas or what are some of those things I'm doing that require faith? When I finished college, I decided to become a YouTuber after coming from a different country. It changed the whole course because I felt God was calling me to set aside my plans to kind of go work at some bank and become a Christian YouTuber after graduating college in Michigan. And, you know, more invitations started coming in my way. I started teaching and preaching.

My YouTube channel grew at the time. This is like way back in the day before like social media was a thing. And I had a conviction that it was so difficult to travel and fly from granted. Rapids, Michigan that I told my wife, I think God wants us to move somewhere where we could literally fly in and out easily. And long story short, God put Dallas on our hearts. And the thing is, we didn't have any money to move because we were like in the early 20s. And so I prayed. I said, God, if you give me enough money for rent for three months, we'll figure out the rest. And literally like a week later, I was working on different contracts with different people. I had enough money for rent for like

three months. And so with my wife, he said, hey, we don't have the rest. We don't know anybody in Dallas. We just knew one person, but we will pack all of our stuff and we'll move from Michigan. We'll drive all the way over here. And that was obviously a huge step. Our family was like, what do you doing? Who do you know? Where are you going there? Hey, we believe God's calling us there. And we'll figure out the rest. And long story short, here we are 10 years later. I'm very glad. In a step of faith. Praise the Lord. God's grace. Yeah. Paul. That's amazing. Yeah. I, after college, lived in downtown Nashville.

And just got laid it in my heart one point. Yeah. Where? Girl, he's lived everywhere. What are you talking about, bro? Did we live in Nashville at the same time? We may have. What years?

Well, it was 2006, 2007. I missed you. I missed you by one year. Go ahead. So I lived kind of near downtown off 21st Avenue. And just a lot of homeless people were there. And just God laid in my heart to begin just serving the homeless in my spare time. But one night, we weren't able to get there out there until late.

And it was dark, pitch dark. And where a lot of them congregated was under this walkway. kind of downtown by the river. You kind of know what you're talking about. And because we hadn't been able to get there until dark, it was a little nervous because there's just two of us and just going to put this out there. Looking back, this is probably not the wisest way to do it, but God was with us. Thank the Lord.

And so we're like, all right, we had some blankets and some coats because it was winter, but then we knew they were under the bridge and where we hopped over the word death was written. Okay. So there you go. That escalated. There it is. All right.

And I was just, I was nervous. I was like, but I just like God was just lead us to it. I took, literally took a step and went down there and we go down there and a guy is just bleeding from his face. He had just gotten his nose busted in a fight and is profusely bleeding. And so we're like, hey, dude, come with us. We go up there on the street and we're looking for any cop. And usually there's cops all the time down there. None right then.

It's like, hey, go sit down. We'll try to find someone. Start walking on the street. There's another homeless guy named Jim, Jimbo. And he is holding his chest. We're like, Jimbo, what's wrong? He's like, I think I'm having a heart attack. And we're like, go find the guy.

bleeding and sit by him. And so my friend and I just start running down the street. And no cops, nothing. We're like, man, of all the times. And so as we're getting to the end of the street and we're going to lose out of the guy. As obviously, I just said a prayer, just gasping, Lord, give us an ambulance. And we turn the corner right there on the side of the road is an ambulance. And by the grace of God, you're able to get them to the hospital. And they're okay. And the point of that is not to glorify us. The point of that was actually like, I could have gone home. I could have gotten nervous and let my fear have the final word. Instead, it's like that faith overcame that fear. And I hope you heard me. That's why it says like, hey, sometimes when we have taken steps of faith, you may still feel

fear. You may still faith will waver. But I took that step anyways, and God was able to use this. Dude, okay, what you just said is really important that when you take steps of faith, you may still have fear. I want to come back to that. That's like, dude, that's like one of the biggest misconceptions in sort of Christianese church world. Is that right there? I want to come back to that. Yeah. And for me, I would either go, uh, choosing to tie the first year we were married. That was, you've heard me tell that story a million times with that journal I kept. I won't tell that again.

That was a very like, okay. We're going to do, you know, honestly, dude, and now as a dad, oh, there we go. As a dad, this is honestly a bit of a confession. I did not want three kids. It was like, you know, kind of,

I'm just being, this is a confession, just how I thought about it. Yeah. When I was younger, I was like, man, honestly, we're going to have kids early. Well, you know, I'm just being honest about how I felt. This is not how you should feel. I was like, well, I'm going to have kids early. We'll get it out of the way.

And then I'll get it traveling. Then I'll do fun stuff. So I'll get the kids out of the way. And then the fun part of life happened. And Jana, first she talked, you know, there was like, she was passionate about it. And I wasn't, we've talked about it before. So I'm good. I was not on the same page.

It caused honestly a lot of conflict for us. And then Jana got to the spot. where she'll tell the story sometime, where she literally told God, I'll never bring this up to Josh again. I'll only talk to you about it, talking to God. And if you change Josh's heart, great, but I'm not going to try to change Josh's heart.

And then, dude, I started. She stopped. It's like, as soon as she stopped talking me about it, I was like, well, the Bible says that children are a blessing and a great way of all this stuff. I started thinking. And they do, no joke,

I walk in a gym in Spring Hill, Tennessee. To this day, I have no idea who this woman was. She was on the little that stairmaster thing. And she, bro, this is,

you know, sometimes you read that verse about, hey, watch out, sometimes you're entertaining angels unaware.

I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm just saying a woman I never met before. She walked up and she was like, hey, are you, Josh Howard in?

I was like, I had a dream about you and your family last night. I'm like, I wanted to call the cops. And then she's, this is what,

bro, this is what she said. I'm in the middle of this, heck, I'm a morrow out place. And she says, I had a dream last night that you had three kids and not two. And that the two first kids were girls, but your third was a boy.

And then she just looks at me and goes, does that mean anything to you? And I went, no, that didn't mean anything. I don't know. But like, seriously, she said that. Wow. And honestly, man, I remember being a young man and thinking, God, this is not what I think. would be like most rewarding for me right now. But there's a lot of verses where your word says

that children are a blessing and a great reward and that there'll be a heritage and da-da-da-da-da. And I literally remember thinking, I think you're telling me to walk by faith. Yeah. And I did. I'll just tell you right now to you, the thought of not having Hudson,

like I'd chop off both arms. And it's just, and I just learned like God's word is true. And that exercising faith in it, you are not going to be let down. It just marked me, man. That's great. It marked me. That's amazing. Hey, let me ask you this.

Let's talk about the, can you listen to your salvation? Well, hey, before we get back to the episode, I want to tell you about something coming up at Lake Point that we're really excited about this summer. We're hosting at the movies a four-week sermon series where we'll use movie clips and stories to illustrate powerful biblical truth. It's one of the most fun and creative experiences we do all year here at Lake Point. And it's designed for the entire family. And so every weekend at our physical locations

will feature unique movie themed experiences, fun characters in the lobby for both kids and adults, incredible worship and practical teaching from the Word of God. And of course, popcorn and drinks for everyone. So whether you are here and maybe you're a long-time churchgoer, someone who's been away from church for a while, or maybe you're looking for an easy way to invite a friend, neighbor, or coworker to church,

this right here is the perfect series for you. At the Movies is an in-person-only event and begins July 11 and 12th and continues through August 1 and 2. And so if you're in the Dallas area, we love for you to join us at one of our campuses. You can find service times, locations, and more information by texting the word ATM to 2041.

Now let's get back to the conversation. Okay, we do need to talk about this. So yeah, let me set this up. This is one of the, we get questions about this so frequently. We're gonna theology nerd out here for a second, okay? What we're talking about, we're talking about faith. And the Bible just clearly says that there is a type of faith that is saving and a type of faith that is not saving. So then this gets into the question, can you lose your salvation?

Hey, is there a way to have faith and then lose faith? And now I was in and now I'm out. These are like legitimate questions. And I actually toss this on Instagram and we're not going to do these yet, Trinity. This is one of the most common questions. It's extremely emotional for people. understandably so, because personal fear, or maybe I had a kid that said they were a Christian walked away. Yeah, yeah, that's right. What I think about this stuff? So let's just start right here.

I'm a Chad Gipal C. I want you to start right here. We have a belief about this. So let me just ask you straight up. Chad Gipal C, can a Christian lose their salvation? Absolutely not. Okay. A genuine, and this is the keyword, genuine Christian cannot lose their salvation because the same grace that saves us also changes and sustains us. If I am a genuine Christian, I have been saved from the penalty of my sin. I am being saved from the power of my sin, which is an ongoing thing to the rest of my life, and I will be saved in the future from the presence of sin when I enter into the presence of Jesus and get to live with him for eternity. Is that one more time? If I am a genuine Christian, I have been saved from the penalty of my sin. That's past. That happens the second I have

genuine saving faith in Jesus. In that second, I am declared righteous and innocent in his sight. Not because of anything I've done, because of everything that Jesus has done. Then for the rest of my life, I am progressively, and sometimes I fall in it's backwards and forwards, but I am progressively being saved from the power of sin of my life. So when I get saved, not all my problems, not all my son habits immediately go away. That's the work of the Holy Spirit to save me from the power of my sin for the rest of my life. And then either when I die or when Jesus comes back, I will be saved forever from the presence of saying. Everybody, every single,

you're saying every single Christian, everywhere will 100% they cannot lose their salvation, guaranteed heaven. Guaranteed. But here's the thing is, I'm going to try to poke holes in this. Please, in a few minutes.

And I got verses. In a few minutes, because I got verses too. And I'm going to warboard some quick ones, but then I do want to double click on three or four and just highlight something. Before you do these, are there like official names for the two views on this? Yeah, well, you have really the idea of,

The historic view of the idea of you cannot lose your salvation is what's called the perseverance of the saints. Some people will say eternal security, once saved, always saved. But I like the idea of the perseverance of the saints. By the way, for our listeners, that's the P in Tulip. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Shout out of Calvinism. Yes, it is.

Although many non-Calvinists also believe that. That's not just a Calvinist thing. Chad, G. Paul C, the C stands for Calvinist. Oh, that's a joke. That's a joke. That's a joke. That's a joke. Although he is.

Wow. I just joking. I mean, we talked about before on the podcast. I mean, you have to be embarrassed about it. I just like that we went ahead and went there. Not anyways. By the way, this is an entirely different podcast episode. We've already done this.

It's going to take a pair of scissors to get the concept of predestination out of the Bible. It's just there. So you got to deal with that different podcast episodes. We may even hear that work here in just a few minutes. Paul, wasn't Calvinism or the five points of Calvinism a response to Joseph's Armenians? Arminius. Jacobus Arminius. Jacobus Arminius. He basically said some stuff. Arminus. Five points was basically their response in the simplest way they could.

Calvinism was a response to Arminus responded to Calvin, but then he kind of came up these five points and then their response became known as to a little history lesson of the day. There you go. So anyway, so yeah, perseverance and the saints. Yeah. Okay. So the two views. Name the two views real quick. One would be the idea that you cannot lose your salvation. The other idea would be that you can lose your salvation. Some people, as we talked about before, would say, oh, well, you don't lose your salvation. You forfeit, which to me is kind of a silly semantics game, because if you forfeit a game, you lose the game. So it's something to say silly semantics kind of a thing. But yeah, and so that's the idea. But here's what I would tell

you. I want to go into scripture, because I know you have some responses, because we don't want to just believe this because it makes this feel good. We want to believe it because the Bible actually says so. That's the only thing that matters. But saying that, what we do need to know, not just with this issue, but with many theological issues, is that you really got to ask yourself, hey, what does, what does seem to be the clear accent of scripture on a position, knowing that there might be some other scriptures that seem to point in an opposite direction. But here's a key thing. This is a good thing for interpreting the Bible in anything, and including this issue. We interpret what is confusing by what is clear, not vice versa. That's a really important.

So that being said, let me just read a few of these really quickly. then I want to double click on a couple of really important ones. So if you're somebody who, like, you have previously thought, man, I actually think you can lose your salvation. These are the verses that are like, hey, dude, what are you going to do with this? What are you going to do with this? So make your case. First, that's the Lonians 5.

May your whole spirit and so embody be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you as faithful, he will surely do it. Not you surely have to do it. He will surely do it. He will sustain you to the end. On that note, 1 Corinthians 1, 8 through 9, Christ will sustain you to the end. guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 24, he is able to keep you from stumbling and make you stand in the presence of his glory.

Philippians 1-6, I'm confident that he who began a good work in you will, not might, not probably, but will carry it to completion. Jeremiah 3240, looking ahead to the new covenant, of which we are apart, I will make what with them an everlasting covenant, and I will put the fear of me in their hearts that they may not turn from me. So those are just some quick hitters. Are you going to keep going? I want the Romans 8 passage, the Golden Chain. I'll get there just a second. Okay, good, you are. Okay, you keep going.

I want to do those fast, just to give you an idea of, like, the three or four that we're about to more double-click on, this is not all of them. I actually even just then just read you some of the other verse. I'm trying to show that the clear accent, like the focus of Scripture seems to be, I would say, is that you cannot lose your salvation. So let's start with the words of Jesus, and I'll get to Romans 8, because that's an important one. Jesus in John 638 through 40 says, I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him. who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me. Dude, that's a like, if you're listening, don't let that one slide past you. Read that one more time because what that verse just said is, I'm going to do his will. Yeah. His will is that I will

is that I will lose, quote, nothing of all that he has given me. Yeah. This is the will of whom who sent me that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. referring to the future resurrection of believers. For this is the will of my father that everyone who looks on the son and believes in him, not the way demons believe, but we talked about in a saving faith kind of way, should have eternal life and I will raise them up on the last day. Definitive,

not maybe definitive. What I want to point out is if you believe somebody can lose their salvation, you can't also believe the word will. No. You can't believe may. Yeah. There's a logical chain of thought here. You believe you cannot be lost, you will be raised. Now, you're going to keep going on these verses, but I'm going to, I'm going to tease where we're going. Because honestly, there are three or four verses that are really tough to deal with.

Yes, there are. If you take the position that we have, that actually you can't lose your salvation. I'm going to throw those at you and they are tough dudes. There are. There are some others. And by the way, we shouldn't ignore them. You keep going on. John 10, 26 to 29, you do not believe. This is actually a really key part I started here because when people refer to this passage, they often leave this out. Jesus is talking to Pharisees, teachers, the law, he says, you do not believe, and here's why, because you are not among my sheep. In other words, the reason they're not believing in Jesus is because they are not his sheep. And then he goes on and says, my sheep hear my voice. And the contrast is, my sheep do believe in me.

And I know them and they follow me and I give eternal life to them and they will never perish. they will never perish. And no one shall snatch them out of my hands. My father who has given to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my hands. Tough to get around. Now, wait, but you didn't do the one that I want. This was next.

Okay, good, good, good. This is such a key one. Romans 8, 28 through 30, we know that for those who love God. I know I keep interrupting. No, please. I see it in the comments. But let me do, I just want to point this out.

So what he's going to do, theologians have historically referred to this as the golden chain. Yes, the golden chain. And what you're going to see is that the logical implication is that every single link in the chain is a guaranteed outcome of the previous link. Yes. And now, that doesn't make sense with what I just said. As he reads the verse, think about the logical implications of the chain. Okay. So you do this thing. And what you'll notice is all these are past tense and where that is most important is the final word. Okay. Those who love God, for all those who love God, all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom He, talking about God, foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of a son. And those whom he predestined, he also called.

And those whom he called, he also justified. And those whom he justified, he also glorified. Glorification is really what happens when we either die or Jesus comes back. And we are in that moment perfected. scripture says that we will become like him Jesus, for we will see him as he is. The thing I want to highlight there is he says it in the past tense as if it is done. And the context here is Paul is trying to give assurance to the Romans that absolutely nothing can separate from the love of God.

And to prove this point, he said, from the beginning of your salvation to the end, and he speaks of it as if it is already guaranteed and done, it is God's doing and it will happen. So if you say, well, you can lose your salvation. then frankly, these verses don't make any sense. That's right. And here's, if this isn't making sense to you if you're listening. And man, what I hope begins to happen in the next like five minutes as we kind of untangle some of these verses to trip people up is if you're a Christian, honestly, man, you've lived

your entire life with a fear. Man, what if I don't make it? What I hope begins to happen is there's like what theologians often call a gospel assurance. Yes. Where the book of Hebrews talks about, let's enter his rest. And we just go, you know what, dude, actually I'm laying my head of a pill at a night knowing I know I'm going to be in heaven with Jesus for eternity. I already know. Now, here's what I want to point this out. And then I'm going to throw some tough things at you. And whatever you want to do, Carl's you can do. So the reason Romans 830 is a big deal is if you believe, if somebody believes you can lose your salvation, you have to believe that there are people that he foreknew, predestined, called and justified who will not be glorified. There ain't no other way to read that verse. Yeah, exactly.

If you believe, I'm going to say it one more time. If you believe that somebody can walk away from their salvation, you are forced to believe, I'm going to say it more time, that there are people that he predestined, called, justified, that will not be glorified. And listen, bro, it's going to take a pair of scissors to get Romans 830 out of the Bible. It's right there. So that's why they call it the golden chain.

Paul's giving them a comfort. He's like, hey, man, you're good. Because God foreknew you, he called you, he called you, He justified you. And if he did those things, guess what's going to happen? He's going to glorify you. As good as done.

As good as done. Past tense. The Hebrew verbs are literally in the past tense. Yeah, past tense. Now, but Paul. Here we go. Because, dude, I'll be honest, these are tough. Go ahead and toss that first one out there, Trinity.

So these are from some live free listeners. Yeah. So Paul, these are the tough verses. These are the verses that lead. And Bob, let's just name it. The primary denominations or streams that tend to believe you can lose yourself. salvation, you have, by the way, and some of these are like close friends of mine.

Oh, yeah. And this is not something where it's like, I don't have fellowship with you if. I got great, great buddies. Assemblies of God. Catholics. Yep. Who are the other primary ones? Nazarene, Church of Christ.

Methodist? Methodist. We have Wesleyan Methodist tradition for sure. Anglican, yes or no? No, generally. Yeah, because they're typically more Calvinistic. Historically not. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. And I will just point this out. Trini, actually, I'm going to cheat. Can you throw that graph up there, the little graph? I will point this out, dude, and this is why this is kind of a big deal. No, it's the, oh, did you not get that? Yeah, we saw it, the Catholic ones.

Yeah, there it is. I do just want to point this out. So, like, here's what happens if you don't believe that Jesus Christ is holding you, according to the book of Jude, he is able to keep us from stumbling. Yes. That no one shall snatch you out of his hand, that if he called you, he is definitely going to glorify you. So our Catholic brothers and sisters that we love, but we really disagree with, they don't believe that.

No. They believe, like you mentioned, that salvation is more like a state that people sometimes flow in and out of. Man, if you die, this is roughshod language. If you die in mortal sins, then you're out. That's kind of a vibe. Well, guess what that results in? This a couple months ago, study showed no one is more fearful of dying than Catholics. literally of every religious belief system in, by the way, including atheists and agnostics,

they ranked higher in fear of death than anyone else in America. And I just got to be honest, man, some of it is because they can't put their head on the pillow and go, hey, dude, if he called me, he's going to glorify me. That's terrifying. Because the end of the date, you're just hoping you were good enough. Yeah. And you were hoping you ended on a good note. Yeah, dude.

That sucks. You don't have to hope you. We're good enough. You have to believe God was good enough in Jesus. All right. Let me throw some tough things at you. Let's rapid fire these as best we can. Number one, objection number one.

But Paul, the parable of the sower seems to say the opposite. To recap, parable of the sower is four seeds fall into soil. It seems like they all begin to spring up. I think it even mentions that some of them begin to, does it say believe? Well, there's like there's some growth element. The plant grows, but then it dies. There's a path. There's a rocky ground.

there are thorns and it's good soil. Those are the four different soils. So it seems like there's four different types of people who all exercise some kind of faith, that some actually begin to start. So there's growth. It seems like there's some kind of growth. So Paul, it seems like there's some sort of spiritual growth, but then they fall away. It specifically says fall away. What say you, Paul? Yeah, a few things there. I mean, one is, is you have to assume that, hey, man, all these people were saved, you don't have to assume that, that they could show signs of what seems like salvation, but actually isn't genuine salvation. We'll get to this here in a little bit when we talk about Matthew 7,

where you get the idea, there's people who thought they were saved, and they talked about being a part of miracles and all these things. And Jesus says, who are you? Like, I don't know who you are. And so, man, there can be people that, I mean, we've got to remember that are in our churches who it seems like they may have some archers of salvation, at least for a moment, but then they do fall away or they wander off or something like that. So I would say, we cannot assume that everyone here is saved. I mean, literally the first one is, the devil comes and takes away the word from a heart so they may not believe and be saved. And so you can't say they're all automatically saved. Instead, what you see is, and I love

what Luke says here in his telling of this. He says that those that as for the good soil, they are those who hearing the word hold it fast in an honest and good heart and bear fruit with patience, or the word could be with perseverance. And all throughout the gospel, was really all throughout the Bible. You see this idea that the nature of your heart determines what comes out of it. And so in this, and so the idea is like, if you have a good heart, meaning a good heart, not because you're a good person, because you have a believing heart. Good stuff's going to come out of that. Conversely, you can also tell people by the bad stuff that comes out of them. And that's what I would say here, is that we're basically showing

here. It's not that they're all believers, but the fourth one, because they persevere, shows themselves to be the believer. You'll see a theme in many of these verses that what the Bible is definitely acknowledging is there will be people who from a human perspective, an infallible human perspective appear to evidence salvation. Yes. But the Bible shows us we're not actually in the spiritual realm save. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. I wrote, I'm doing this like, because we're good to Hebrews here and probably next or in a few minutes, Hebrews 314 is actually really crucial. We have come to share in Christ. That's past tense. That's past tense. It's already happened in the past. If indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end, if we persevere is a

sign that we have already going to believe in Jesus. But wouldn't loss of salvation? People say, bro, you just prove my point. You're only finally saved if you stay on the faith path the whole time. If that's the point is, if we have come to share in Christ, the have come to share past tense, it's already happened. People historically believe in perseverance of the same is that you do have to persevere. It's just not on you. It's God who is going to keep you with him. He's He's the one who is holding on to you. He's the one who's holding on to you. So that's what he's saying.

All right, here we go, number two. Let's see this one. Okay. So then Paul, what does Revelation 3-5, let me, Carlos, keep up with that verse. I want to read it. Yeah, Revelation 3-5. What does Revelation 3-5 mean regarding these people's names? It seems to say, will be blotted out.

Paul, can you read it, Carlos? Yes. The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the Book of Life. but we'll acknowledge that name before my father and his angels. So Paul, it says some people's names could be blotted out from the Book of Life. My gracious response is, no, it does not. Boom, boom.

People miss this. Boom. Revelation 3-5 is a promise to believers, not a threat to believers. There you go. Because also in the book of Revelation, it talks about how our names were written the Book of Life from before the foundations of the world and the bill of the lamb who was slain. And so God is known for all the time who would be slain. You know what's interesting too? So this is the church in Sardis.

Again, it talks about how some people had fake faith, but then it says that there's a few that are faithful. And then right before he says, I will never blot out the name of that person. He says, I will be dressing them in white. So there's an element of like, hey, I'm the one that's going to clothe you with white. White means purity, victory, power. And so, again, it's a result of that. And he literally is it's a promise.

I will never blot out. And I will acknowledge your name before my father. Yeah. This is like, that's a little. a little slight of hand. It's what you said at the beginning. This verse is a promise to give a comfort to people whose names will never, in other words, he's going, hey man, here's the best way to read it. I don't blot names out. No. That's the whole vibe. That's the whole point. I don't blot names out. In fact, if you go back and read Revelation 13-8 and 17-8, it specifically states that the redeemed,

their names were written in the book of the lamb, quote, before the foundation of the world. So the whole emphasis is I ain't a name blotter. That's the vibe. Okay. Let's do another one. Next one. This is the tough. I'll be honest.

This is the toughest one. It is this toughest one. I'm going to read it. This is like the lynchpin. Paul, it seems like you lose your salvation. Seems like that what I said. This is Hebrews 1026. She said, Hebrews 1026.

I've always wondered about this. Gosh, I hope you see this. We did. Okay, so I'm just going to read this, Paul. And I want you to take it. Here we go. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Okay.

Paul, what do we do? Actually, there's that one, and then there's also the Hebrew 6. Let's do Hebrew 6. Let's do both, because you've got to do with all. all these themes throughout Hebrews at one time. I think there's a great idea. Where's the Hebrews 6 passage? Hebrews 6.12.

Verse 4. 4. Okay. Now, so this dovetails. Okay. Hebrews 6. 4. For it is impossible to restore again to repentance,

those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the Word of God, and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. Now, Paul, that seems to be saying there will be people that repented, were enlightened,

shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the Word of God, and the powers of age to come, that then fall away and are not saved. I'm going to need a few minutes to cook on this one. It's a few minutes, because this is a tricky passage. And by the way, actually, before I jump in, I would say we need to take these warnings seriously, but I would say we need to take them seriously for the right people in the church. But we'll get back to that here in a second. But we do need to take these seriously.

We shouldn't just write them off. A few things with Hebrews. And I was actually to start with this verse, although I would apply later to Chadford 10 as well. Let's recognize that if this warning is spoken to genuine saved Christians, then not only is it possible to lose your salvation, you can never get it back. This is really important. Because often when I've talked to people about this thing and they think, no, I'm. you can lose your salvation. And then I'll often ask them so you think you can get back to a T.

They're like, well, of course, I'm like, if you believe Hebrew 6 is saying this, this is saying you can never get it back. Sorry, bro, you had your chance and you blew it. In fact, I'll just read it again. It is impossible to restore again to repentance. Yeah. And so that's just number one. I just want to just point that out.

Number two, and I just go and say two or three, we need to remember the context, and then we also need to look more deeply at the content. We need to remember the context of Hebrews, and then look more deeply at the content of Hebrews, is specifically Hebrew 6. So the context, the writer of Hebrews is writing to a church to a group of people. When we read this and it says you, we often read it as you singlyb. He's talking to a group of people.

Now in any church, not just a church then, but even a church now, and this might sound rude to people, it's just reality, is every single person who attends Lake Point Church saved? No, they're not. No, they're not. They're not. There's many, and this is true of every, it's not just like, if every church ever in existence, you have people that are both believers and unbelievers. And by the way, Jesus said that this would happen.

That this would happen. By the way, it was true for his disciples. One thing I thought of later, I'm not going to backtrack and give a better answer now, but the parable of the soar, that proves true in Jesus' ministry. That's right. There's people who persevered to the end. There's people who in trouble comes, they leave, and then you've got Judas to ultimately betray. So it proves true in his own ministry.

So we got to remember that when he is speaking, he is assuming that you have people in this church that are true believers and those who are not true believers. and the context also is that they are facing persecution, and they're being tempted, these are Jewish believers to go back to Judaism, to basically say, actually, we're going to go back to the sacrifices, we're going to go back to all these things because Jesus actually was enough and we no longer believe. Okay, so we've got to remember that. And so when he's speaking this, if you read this as if he's speaking to Christians, man, oh,

crap, we could lose our salvation and we'll never get it back. But if you read this with the assumption that there's actually some people in here that actually don't believe, all of a sudden it makes sense. since. He says, hey, if you abandon Jesus. When you say don't believe, are you talking about people who like have a non-salvivific faith? Exactly. A non-salvific faith. So what you're talking about there is the difference. There is a, the theological distinction is between the visible church and the invisible church. Exactly. And that this is really important because this is going to shed light on everything you're about to say. That in every, when somebody walks into any church, what you're

looking at is the visible church. What is visible to me is the church gathered. But then the Bible consistently shows us, hey man, from a supernatural and spiritual perspective, not everybody that's gathered visibly with the church is invisibly, eternally saved because only God knows the heart and knows which people in the visible church are also actually regenerate believers that are part of the invisible church that will fully and finally be saved. So this is what you're saying, right? And I was actually about to, I think to understand Hebrews 6, 1, 10, you've got to go back to Hebrews chapter 3. Take care brothers. lest there be in any of you in the original language, that's plural,

an evil and unbelieving heart, that's singular. Wait, say that one more time? Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you, plural, speaking to everybody, an evil unbelieving heart singular. Wow. And I love that. That keys that your implication. When I pointed out to you about the idea that their hearts, that's the idea.

But evil unbelieving heart, I mean, I can't think of anywhere else in scripture that's described as a believer. Yes. So what you're saying, are you still cooking? Okay, just real fast. that leading you to fall away from the living God. For we have come to sharing Christ if we indeed hold original confidence to the end. But then he goes on in verse 15.

Today, if you hear his voice, do not hearting your hearts as in the rebellion. For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt, led by Moses, 18? To whom did he swear that they would not enter his arrest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of own belief. Real quick, let me tease this out. He is saying that you had this massive group of people who they saw. all the plagues and they saw Passover and they saw the Red Sea, but some in there actually

didn't truly have salvific faith. They were all part of the same group, but they were not all saved just because they were part of the group. So so much I believe as Hebrews is about them saying, hey, you're all part of the same church. Don't assume that just because you're in the church that you're in the kingdom. Yeah, don't assume just because you're part of the visible church that you're automatically part of the invisible church. I'll do this next part real fast because we had to give the context. But I think it's so important to actually do that and to look more closely at these passages. Okay, if you look at the content of Hebrews 6, like it first does on first blush seem like, oh man, these people are definitely saved, but let's just read this again

and think of a different way, who have once been enlightened. Maybe that just means that they've actually heard the truth of the gospel, who have tasted the heavenly gift. Many commentators believe that that is communion, the Eucharist, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, they've seen the Holy Spirit do incredible works in their mess and its ministry. This is stuff around them. Exactly. maybe not in it, but around them. And so they tasted it, but maybe they didn't swallow it kind of thing. Exactly. They've experienced it all. So that's just one thing. That's what those verses could mean. But here's the thing. Verse nine to me is the key. Yeah, dude, this is it. Okay, this is what people miss? This is where so many people this, though we speak in this way, all these warnings that he's just given.

Yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things, things that belong to what to salvation. So all these other things didn't belong to salvation. But he said, no, we believe better things. for you. And so I would just say, hey, that man, this is a warning that, hey, just because you're in the group, don't automatically assume you're a believer. You need to check your hearts and make sure you actually have saving faith. I'm going to do one more verse here, and then I'm going to do this one real fast. And then where I want us to land is on two quick pastoral applications that are, you know, it's kind of tough questions. So another verse

that a lot of loss of salvation people hang their head on is James five. Okay. I'm going to read it. It says, my brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, So I mean, among you. So we're part of the visible church. Wanderes from the truth and somebody brings him back. Let him know that whoever brings back a sinner. This is really important. A sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Now, on one reading, somebody might go, man, it seems like that's going, hey, is somebody that's among you? So they're a Christian. And then they wander from the truth. So they lost their salvation. and we know that it's talking about them losing their salvation. This is how the argument goes. We know that it's talking about them losing their salvation

because it says you saved their soul from death. So what somebody might say is, hey, bro, there's at least got to be a possibility of losing your salvation because what else can save your soul from that? There has to be a possibility of somebody among the Christians experiencing death of the soul, hell.

Well, honestly, if you're listening close, We're trying to turn you into theologians today. Really every single verse, it's illustrating the same thing. Not everyone that's part of the visible church is also part of the invisible church. What this verse, I strongly believe is talking about is he's saying, hey, brothers, there are people among you, the visible church, who think that they're Christians. They're not actually saved. So there comes a moment where their unregenerate hearts begin to manifest and they begin to wander away from. from the truth, it's among you.

Like, visibly, that would look like somebody apostatizing. And then it's saying, and then you as a Christian go, and then you bring them to the truth, that's the moment of their salvation. That's what I think James Five is saying. Yeah. And that is what is saving them from death. They got saved. Yes.

And two small observations with this. If you believe that James five is saying that you can lose your salvation, same people with this would say the same thing about Hebrew 6, then Hebrew 6 and James 5 completely contradict each other. This is so important. Let's land. I want to land on this because this is really important. If you believe that this is saying you can lose your salvation, you would probably also say the same thing about Hebrew 6. Hebrew 6 says, 6 says it is impossible for them to be restored. This is saying it can be. There's no way to get around that. They can't. Yeah. Is that landing?

That makes a lot of sense. So it must mean something else. And I would argue like you just said, it means exactly what you're saying. That they're a part of the people of God, but they're not actually, they do not know God. I want to ask both these questions at both of you. Okay. So these are, and this are, and this, we'll see if we got time to do reparations and James Sauer. Okay. These are, so these were really, by the way, in about one hour, we received hundreds of questions on this. This is a big deal for a lot of people. The two most emotional questions that was very obvious people wrestle with.

I'm just going to throw them at you. Number one, let's toss that one up. Almost everybody has had this experience, okay? I've seen a few walk away. does that mean their conversion was not authentic? So maybe you had a family member, a brother, a sister, a friend, and they were on Team Jesus,

and it seemed like they were really on Team Jesus. They walked away, so they're going, hey, are you guys saying they were never saved? Paul, Carlos, what say you? Are you done talking about just a salvation thing? For now. Okay, so let me just,

and I just add one more thing before we go here. Because from an intellectual perspective, like this, that's a phenomenal answer. I think from a pastoral perspective, too, especially when you have some of these conversations with like a family member and somebody ask you, it's really helpful from what I have found to ask, hey, why do you ask?

So somebody's asking, hey, can you lose your salvation? Anytime you can respond by saying, hey, tell me why are you asking that? And the reason it matters is because people will ask for different reasons. So if somebody says, I'm asking that because I'm a Christian, but I'm struggling with one particular sin that I just can't get over with. It's been years. And, you know, I'm really trying.

And I feel like I'm going to lose my salvation. then we would say, man, Romans chapter 8, you know what, man, you have been saved. Nothing can separate you. Your sin is not greater than God's grace in your life. And so again, in fact, if you are a Christian and you are struggling with a specific sin, that's actually pointing to the fact that you are saved because a non-believer does not struggle with their sin. They're like, well, you know, I just kind of do what I do and I really care. You care.

Guess what? You're a son, you're a daughter. God can work in you. That's right. That's great news. So now, if somebody else would say, well, man, I, you know, I did the prayer of faith when I was a little kid or I grew up in church one day. I got my ticket, bro. I'm a 10.

Well, Josh said that I can't ever lose my salvation so I can just do whatever I want. Hey, bro, you need to repent. You're going to help. Honestly, that guy needs Hebrew 6. Exactly. That guy needs Hebrew 6. He needs, like, legitimately, that dude needs the fear of God on his life. That's right.

And so, you know, and this is a thing. I've never actually shared this here. But, like, I love J.P's question. Shout out to JP. I've known JV for a long time. I love that question, the one to ten thing. On a scale from a 10, if you were to die, where were you going? I love that.

And yet, there's a little bit of me that I would caveat anytime I have an opportunity to have that conversation. Because in some ways, what I wouldn't want is somebody to think that being a Christian is receiving a ticket to salvation and you're set. Being a Christian is not for something that happens for after you die one day down the road. being a Christian is an invitation to be in a relationship with Jesus now. Yes. Which is, yes, that you will get to heaven one day and be with Jesus. But guess what? Your treasure at the end of the day is not one day after you die in heaven somewhere out there.

It is a relationship with Jesus now. Jesus is your treasure today. Yes, you will be saved. You will be in heaven with Christ. But ultimately, it is a relationship. So it's not just the ticket that you're going to put on your back pocket that you're going to use that someday after you die. Anyway, so that would be for my response on a more pastoral

level to the person asking. Back to your question. Which brings me back to the question. That's right. That's right. If somebody just like this person said, they saw people who were like, hey man, I'm all in on Team Jesus. I'm all in. And then they go to Juko, or whatever it is. And then they walk away.

Are y'all saying they were never actually saved? And this is hard because they can be people that we know, and that's why this can be so personal, but also we've seen pastors who have done this. Yeah. And it's really hard and it can really shake us. I would say, I would say they were not genuine Christians. Correct.

We have verses for this. Actually goes perfect with the visible invisible, invisible church thing you did, which I thought was so good. First John 219, they went out from us. So the idea of visible church, they're part of visible church. They went out from us, but they were not really of us in visible church. For if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But they went out in order that it might be shown that they are all not of us.

that not everyone who's a part of the visible church are actually believers in a part of the invisible church. Here's another way I like to say this. In Matthew chapter 7, which we alluded to earlier, Jesus says there are going to be some people who thought, like, they thought they were in. They thought they were saved. And they're going to be surprised when Jesus says, depart from me, I never knew you. And so if there are going to be people who on the last day are surprised and they thought that they were in, it shouldn't surprise us if some people come to that realization before the final day. Does that make sense? It does.

So it doesn't take the sting off, but I would just say, hey, even if it looks like they did what they were for a season, ultimately they showed themselves to not be genuine believers in Jesus if they walked away. Tell me if you agree with this. Because in my mind, it's two options, what you just said or they're a prodigal son that will return. And this is the Calvinistic part of me of like, man, I believe, thank God for a predestination. That in one sense, it could be. And again, tell me if you disagree with me. men, maybe they did have a saving faith of some sort. And right now, they're just astray.

What was the difference between Peter and Judas? Yeah. He repented. And so my job, in fact, when you look at the prodigal son's story, there is a cultural expectation for the brother to do his duty, the older brother, and he didn't do it, to in some ways go try to find it. And so this is where the job of the church comes in. And we say, man, as believers, man, we pray for them.

And we pray not with like, man, I hope somehow God, Perhaps my, we say, God, you are sovereign. Get him. Go get him. God of heaven. Do whatever you need to do. And I have hope in that. Because if my hope is in the fact that my friend will change by his own accord and his own will,

man, I got no hope. Because I know my buddy. I love my friend. He's going in the wrong direction. He is blind. My only hope is if the father does a work in his soul. And my hope is that that's going to be a prodigal son's going to return home. And when he does or he or she does, the father is going to embrace.

him completely. Amen. Yeah. So just for clarity for what Carl is saying, if you see somebody who once said they're on Team Jesus and now they're like real, they're like going sideways, just to clarify this, there's two options. Either that person wasn't saved or actually, and this is, it's rare, but I do think it happens. The book of Corinthians, it talks about a quote, carnal Christian, you will have people, I've seen this on rare occasions who is like, they have a moment in their life where it's like they just go real sideways and somewhere are buried down deep under there, there's like a regenerate heart, but it's buried where we're real deep, and you can barely see it at all. And then they're definitely coming back. One of those

two things is the only option. Those are the only two options. Let me do this last question, because this is, this is a heavy one. This person, God bless this girl, this was so sweet and vulnerable. She said, I am worried about my own salvation because I continue to fall to temptation. Carlos, would you like to start taking that one? Yeah, I mean, I would say, again, I would say the same thing I said to the person. The fact that you are worried about your salvation, it is a great sign that you actually are a believer, that you have a regenerate heart, that you care about the things that God cares about, and you need reassurance of salvation with all these verses. I would bombard my mind over and over.

The way you combat a lie is with the truth of God's. word and that's where you'll find life. What would you say? Yeah, I couldn't have said it much better. The biggest thing that you're going to see there is almost no regenerate person ever feels that feeling right there. In fact, when somebody has a fear of falling away from the living God, they're actually seeing temptation in their life. They're like, here's what they start to feel. And do, the reason I tear up is because there ain't a Christian anywhere who has not felt this. Where it's like you're kind of going like, God, I sin the same sin for the 500th time. And there's like this thing that starts to well up in.

You're like, I hate this. You start to, like, I'm a pastor. And I got things in my life where I start to go, what is wrong with me? And honestly, some people may be listening to go, a pastor thinks that. You know where I got that? The Apostle Paul. That's what Paul says about himself in Romans 7. Paul goes, the apostle, Paul goes, bro, what?

What is wrong with me? And here's the big ideas. Hey, dude, there's a reason the Bible says that at the end of time, what Jesus is going to do is he's going to wipe away every tear from every eye. You know what that means? You're going to be weeping all the way to Jesus. That's right. And some of that weeping is, man, I really want to be free from this sin.

And it just keeps cropping up. And so what I would say is, that precious little girl right there, what I'd say is you got this fear of God's absence. And I would just say it's an old Puritan saying, a fear of God's absence is a sign of his presence. You would not be feeling what you were feeling unless you had a heart that was inclined towards the living God. I'm going to give you a verse. Everybody needs a verse.

I'm going to give you a verse. Proverbs 2416. I love this so much. The righteous fall seven times and rise again. But the wicked stumble when calamity strikes. You know what that means? This is what that means. It means the sign that you have been made righteous in Jesus Christ by salvation,

The sign is not that you stop falling. That's not the sign. The righteous fall seven times. Like, you look like, if you fall seven times in a row, you look like an idiot that can't walk. Yeah. But Paul's going, but you might look like that and you've still been made righteous in Christ. The sign that you've been made righteous to Christ isn't that you never fall. It's that you keep getting back up and trying again.

Amen. Martin Luther said, the life of a Christian is a life of repentance. It is not a moment of repentance. It is a lifestyle. You continually repent. Psalm 51, 17 says a broken and contrite heart, oh God, you will not despise. Amen.

Come home. Amen. You know what? We're going to take a break right there. I'm going to get James Tala Rico later. Because we need to hit that. Right now, Carlos, would you close this in prayer? Absolutely.

That would be awesome, man. Heavenly Father, thank you so much for your word. Thank you because, man, the gospel just means good news. And that's what we need today. Lord, we pray for every single viewer and listener. that the good news of the gospel of your salvation, Jesus, that you said that nothing can separate us from your love, that no one in anything can snatch us from your love. That's such a good news.

I pray that that may be true, not just on an intellectual level, but also on a heart and soul level for every single person listening right now. Thank you, Father. I pray that not only that may be true on a soul level, but that we may walk in confidence and just knowing that we are safe in you, knowing that you empower us to live the life that you call us to live. We pray that we may continue to seek you deeply, that we may enjoy a relationship with you, Jesus, the king of the universe, that we may continue to walk in light of that truth every single day.

Thank you for your word. Thank you for the spot. Thank you for a live free nation. And we pray all this in your name, Jesus Christ. Amen, amen, amen. Live free, brother. Brother.