Live Free with Josh Howerton - Charlie Kirk Assassination: A Wake-Up Call for Christians | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

In this powerful episode of LIVE FREE, Pastors Josh Howerton and Carlos Erazo, joined by special guest Pastor Ryan Visconti, confront the spiritual battle behind rising cultural violence, including the tragic assassination of Charlie Kirk. They dive into why the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active, how Christians can grieve with hope, and what bold faith looks like in dark times. With biblical truth and a call to courageous prayer, this conversation will equip you to stand firm in Christ, speak boldly, and trust God to move in power today.   👍 Like, Comment, & Subscribe for more life-changing podcasts! 🔔 Turn on notifications so you never miss an update!     📝 SHOW NOTES Subscribe now to receive the show notes directly in your inbox with each new episode. These notes are filled with key insights and scripture to help you reflect and grow deeper in your faith – https://lakepointe.church/shownotes    👇 DON’T MISS OUT! Have you recently decided to follow Jesus? Text LIFE to 20411 to take your next step with Jesus: https://lakepointe.church/baptism/   ⛪ ABOUT LAKEPOINTE CHURCH:We believe that Lakepointe is a movement for all people to Know God, Find Freedom, Discover their Calling, and Make a Difference. With 7 DFW locations and programs for all ages, there's something for everyone.  🤝 Support this ministry and help us reach more people with the Gospel: https://lakepointe.church/give    STAY CONNECTED:🌐 Website: https://lakepointe.church/👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lpconnect/📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lpconnect 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lakepointechurch   🎧 LISTEN ON THE GO! ▶️ Live Free on Spotify / https://open.spotify.com/show/353ryGdZNlebaiqkCcy3Yc▶️ Live Free on Apple Podcasts / https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/live-free-with-josh-howerton/id1669321198

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the Word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ.

Thanks for tuning in. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free Podcast. My name is Carlos Rassar,

and I'm here today with Pastor Josh Howardton wearing a Live Free hats. We're wearing a live free hat, man. Hey, I'll be honest. I got a bit of a heavy heart recording this one. It is. Yeah. Me too. So we got, just to give people a heads out, we're recording this, I'm going to give away a little secret.

We're recording this on a Thursday. that's the day after the assassination of Charlie Kirk and also the day after encounter prayer or worship night. But anyway, just give a heads up. You know, I'm just, you know, I'm not as cheery and goofy as typical for some obvious reasons. We're going to spend a lot of time with the back have of this podcast talking about that. That's right. And we want to answer some questions about that. And by the way, we've got a buddy of mine, Pastor Ryan Visconti, this is going to be hopping on in a few minutes. on podcast because he was actually a pretty, a pretty personal friend of Charlie's. I don't think,

I'll ask you to edit this out if he, I'm not allowed to say this, but he's the pastor that TPUSA asked to come over to their headquarters last night and minister to their staff. And so I want Ryan, he had some interesting perspectives on a few things, but there's like something very spiritual going on in our nation and we're going to talk about it. So if, if I seem a little less jovial than usual, that's why. That's right. But I do have a live free hat on. I like your live hat. Well, we got a shot of it? Yeah, there it is. Yeah. We got some merch coming, man. You know what? We didn't plan this, but comment below and we will give one away. This one. That one, okay. Maybe. I don't know. Worn by our very own lead pastor, Josh Howardson. Comment below on YouTube.

They should just comment hat. Comment hat. I don't know. Common hat plus an emoji. Oh, okay. Of a cap. Okay. A emoji. Oh, we'll get creative with it. Hey, man, thank you for liking, subscribing, everybody joining. Honestly, man, by the way, these last four weeks of our sermons and live free episodes, my goodness. It's insane. Like wild. It was, man, and honestly, I had more fun teaching the Song of Solomon series than anything I've done a long time. So many people telling me how helpful those episodes were and those sermons and having Jana over. Yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome, man. And the number of stuff, like in the lobby, the number of people who like, I mean, every week, it was this big long line in the lobby of like, after week one, you said to ask a Christian girl out and I did. And here we are. Let's go. Come on. And then it was like a whole bunch of people getting engaged. Listen, I'm going to brag on it. A whole bunch of dudes that are like newer to church and Jesus that had been living with a girlfriend. And they were like, oh, well, Jesus said to do that. I'm going to do that. And they put a ring on it. Or they moved down.

and like we're going to move out until we get married. I was really proud, man. Great, great job. Thank you. Thank you for you and Jenna. Yeah. It was awesome, man. That was great. Wait, can I, can I also, because we had two amazing things happen also. That's right. We had encounter last night, which was it, what was your favorite part of encounter? That's tough, man. Well, honestly, to see that room full of people worshipping, there's a hunger, there's nothing like it. There's nothing like it. I mean, yeah, yeah. That was, I'll start there. First of all, J.P.'s message crushed.

That's right. So shout out, Pastor Jonathan Pekluta that hopped in and it crushed. Our people love the word. It's amazing. But honest, man, and listen, I'm allowed to be biased. I think our people are the best people in the whole world because it's like an hour before the prayer meeting. There's like hundreds and thousands of people streaming in to pray for the prayer meeting.

It's like the prayer meeting. I'd love to know. I haven't heard of attendance yet. But it's like overflow of overflow. And I mean, you were there. Oh, spectrum. They were just crying out to the living God. Bro, hands up, literally like all over the auditorium, just like this.

When we called for prayer at the end, and we're going to get talking about the Bible and Charlie and everything here in a second. When we call for prayer at the end, like, you just, people are just desperate for Jesus, man. And they're like, I mean, those lines, those lines, I'm standing up on stage because I'm getting ready to come up and finish service. I mean, like, it was like lines like 20 deep. over on the left side, like trying to get to people for prayer. Our elders were over there doing the James 5, pray for healing. By the way, we're going to talk about in a second,

we're going to talk about should Christians pray for people to be raised from the dead because the passage that we did this week was somebody getting raised with them. So anyway, they were over there like elders anointing people with oil and praying for physical healing, and it was awesome, man. That's one thing to celebrate. There's another one. Oh, you're rooted? Yeah.

Yeah. So we also, it was a big rooted launch. Wait, can I? Hang on. Trinity, I'm going to send you a picture so that you can pop up real quick. So the Rooted launch, wait, we tell him what Rootid is. Well, first of all, yeah. So if you're new here and you're like, what is Rooted? Rooted is our, we just launched this thing where it's basically like a 10-week discipleship experience where you're able to join a group. If you've never been in a group, this is your opportunity

to join a group with other believers digging to the Bible. And then you go through different rhythms of scripture, discipleship, prayer, community, generosity, and more. I got some numbers here, but I want to let you keep going. You got numbers? I got numbers. Dang, dude. I think you got numbers for me. So that right there, bro, that is the rooted launch just into Rockwall campus.

Wow. So it's like thousands and thousands of people. Do you know how many thousand? Yeah, so 3,385 people got into groups this week. That's stupid. That's stupid. These are over 247 groups. Yeah.

By the way, me and Jan are leading one. Let's go. I heard about it. We're leading a young adult's rooted group at our house. We felt like youth pastors again. Some of them stayed over to like 10 p.m. I met some of them. Yeah, it was awesome.

They were excited. It was awesome, man. But yeah, man, I mean, just this, Rudy is like boot camp for Team Jesus. Yes. Here's what it means to be a disciple. And that's going to change a lot of lives right there. That's a big deal for us. Actually, we had, you know, obviously, we had stories of people that they've never been to a physical location at Lake Point.

And then they, but they joined on the Livery podcast. And they joined Root. And so they came. And we, yeah, there's a. screenshot. This is a cool story. A couple in our group has been watching Josh online and heard him mention Rootid. So they signed up. They have never stepped foot on any LP campus. That's an amazing leap of faith to commit to a 10-week group at a church and people you do not know yet, but you will become part of the family. And they said they felt a tug from God.

That's awesome. Come on, man. Shout it to the, I'm sure that's just one case of many. Let's go live free digital disciples. That's amazing, man. So, hey, by the way, if you're here and you're like, man, I'd love to join Root it. Just text the word rooted to 20411. And we'd love to connect with you personally as well. Also, just shout out to everybody again with the Lifree podcast, Top 10, Religion and Spirituality on Apple charts. Like, yeah, that's amazing. And then if, by the way, if you're here and to get the show notes, so every time, by the way, we do this, if you're new, we already have over 2,000, maybe 3,000 people that have subscribed to get the show notes.

This is basically a document you can download on each episode where we include all key takeaways, main highlights, additional content. and discussion questions for you to take to your group as well. Why? Because discipleship happens in relationships and your next step after this is community. So text the word notes to 20411. We'll send them straight to your phone or go to lake point. com. That church slash notes.

Pastor Josh, have a question for you. All right, I'm prepared. Hey, man, I'm curious. Oh, no.

By the way, I'm a fan of your sermon prep. Do I know that this is coming? Do you do? Oh, okay. All right, good. It's, man, what didn't make it to the sermon?

There was a lot that didn't make it in the sermon. So first of all, let me just say something. If you are like, if you're one of those people, it's like, man, my heart's honestly as heavy for what's going on in our nation. I do want to encourage you about something real quick because you may be like, dude, just get to the stuff about Charlie. Here's what I would say as a Christian is you got to make sure that the internal reality

of your heart is not dominated by the external headlines of the world. And what mature Christians do is this like I did it as soon as I, actually you're the one that texts me. I was in the middle of a workout and you text me about Charlie getting shot. And what mature Christians do is they don't react. they reflect. And so what I would encourage you to do is men as disciples of the Word of God, we actually need, there's something studying about like, okay, there's all this stuff going on, but let me pause and just get my heart into the word. There's a settling thing that does

for the soul. So let's do that real quick. And then we'll, we'll get some spiritual reality things about what's going on with all the Charlie stuff. Okay, stuff that didn't make it in. So here's the, here's the story of what happened in Acts 19 or Acts 20. I think we're 30. two weeks into preaching through Acts, something like that. So this is Paul's third missionary journey. He goes to this place called Troas, and it's actually kind of a funny story. He preaches, and it says that he preaches,

and literally what the Bible says is he preached, quote, on and on and on, until a dude, like, falls asleep in the window and then falls out of a third-story window and dies, and then Paul raises him to dead. This is a funny little fact. I do want to point this out, very encouraging to me.

Did you know, Carlos? The Bible tells us Paul was not a very engaging speaker. I had an idea. It does. Because he had a friend called Apollos who was known to be an amazing speaker. Yes. Yeah. So, this is an interesting verse. Second Corinthians 1010.

Paul's critics said this. For some say, his letters are weighty and forceful. But in person, he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing. That's wild. But that's in the Bible. It's like the social media version of the trolls. I know, man. It's like, yeah, he's got the haters.

So honestly, there was like, when I was meditating on it, there was something kind of encouraging to me about that, is that, man, I'll work, and you do too, you're a Bible teacher. We work really hard to make the Bible teaching something that's like people can enjoy, they can listen to, we keep their attention. That's good. But what mature Christians do is they're really not there.

for the jokes or the story. They're really like, dude, I want the word. And Paul was that kind of guy. He was like he was a word guy. I love it. Yeah. There's power in the word. Power and the word, man.

Power in the word. A couple other things. Very interesting. This is, in fact, I'm going to read it. It's Acts 20, verse 7. This is one of the first mentions in the entire New Testament about the Sabbath being shifted from Saturday to Sunday. And a lot of people gloss over it and don't realize this says it.

So Acts 20 verse 7. says on the first day of the week when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul taught with them. And then it goes on to say he started teaching the Bible. Now, that's kind of verse like you just read past it and you don't even notice. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He just said on the first day of week. So that's a big deal because since literally, you know, the Levitical law, you know, that would have been two to three thousand years before this, the Sabbath had always been Saturday. And, And then you just get this little, we'll slide it right in there.

Whoa, now instead of the seventh day of the week, we're on the first day of the week. So I'll read you some, this is some, we're going to Bible nerd out for a second here. Very interesting because seventh day Adventist churches, they still make a very strong, like, their whole thing is wrong. You know, you ought to be worshipping on Saturday. And in course, the Old Testament law. Just some really fun church history nerd stuff here. Justin Martyr. This is a direct quote from Justin.

Martyr. Justin Martyr was a pastor at the beginning of the second century, which means the 100s. A lot of people miss that. So like literally right after the New Testament is written, he records that it was the custom of the custom of celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday was so universally established that Christians in, listen, in every city and village, followed the custom of worship on Sunday, not Saturday. So there you've got it from like literally a first or second century I witness. A little interesting tidbit. A lot of people attribute that shift to in the year 70 AD. Do you know what happened in 70 AD? I have an idea. In 70 AD, Jesus prophesied it. That's a whole thing. And if you want to really Bible and turn out, you can start talking about

preterism versus partial prederism. Are the events that are recorded in the book of Revelation past or future, almost certainly, at least some of the events of the book Revelation, this is called the preterist or partial preterist position, are referring to things that happened in 70 AD. That's right. When the Roman Empire came and absolutely demolished Jerusalem in fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy, that actually some of that was judgment because they rejected the Messiah.

And so a lot of people think what happened is in 70 AD, until that point, because the temple was still there doing this thing, the Christians were viewed as like a sect of Judaism and they still worship on Saturday. But then when the temple got destroyed, they were like, oh, well, the temple rhythms are done. They shifted to Sunday worship. And then last thing I'd say, a little thing that didn't make any. It's a little fun fact. Eudacus is the name of the kid that falls out of the third story thing and dies. That was the ninth most popular name in the Roman Empire. I did not know this.

A little fun fact. So the ninth most popular name of a 25-year-old dude now is Daniel. So, you know, it's just kind of like, you hear a weird name like Eutychus. Well, it's kind of like meaning somebody named Daniel. You know, I just now. And you did say what that word means, right? Like the name, right? I did not.

Didn't it mean, does it mean lucky? Oh, it does. Yeah. Eudacus means lucky, which is hilarious because he falls out of a window. That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah. A little interesting thing.

So yeah, man, that was some stuff that didn't make into the message. Okay. Yeah. Well, I want to dive into this story. It's interesting because, you know, obviously we're going to get into this, but the idea of this young man at the window basically following three stories. Oh, one more thing. Yeah. There you go.

Actually, this doesn't go back to Greek. It's just a fun little fact. Did you know, Carlos? that the etymology, the origins of the word window, it literally means wind door. Wind door. Wind door. By the way, I love geeky etymology stuff. So thank you.

I'm like, whoa, man, I'm learning something new. Words. Yeah. So it means wind door because in places like ancient, you know, Israel, it was real dang hot. Yeah. So they would put, they didn't put windows in to let light in. They put windows in to let, to let wind in. It was a wind door.

Interesting. I appreciate that. There you. I love this so much. Well, again, it's interesting. There's so much in this story. And again, I'm sure you'll, you know, with your sermon. But it's funny that the text does not say that Euticus was a little sleepy.

It says he fell into a deep, deep sleep. Man, I just, even as we're going to have this conversation today about our culture and our nation, man, there's just something about our nation being under a, a deep spiritual sleep where we're so close to the edge of something, whether it's sin or following. It reminds me, too, of the letter that Jesus writes in the book of revelations to the church and Sardis, where he says, man, you guys are going through the motions, but there's no heart connection, there's no life-term story and power, no hunger to grow into things of God, no science and wonders.

And again, so we'll keep going with this illustration, but the fact that it's a lot of this guy who's young, he falls. The hope in the story is that he falls surrounded by believers who cared for him. That's right. And so if he would have fallen in a different setting, you know, there would have been a completely different story. But now, man, he falls and he's, he happens to be surrounded by people who actually took him, care for him. Paul was there to pray for him. And a miracle happened. So man, I want to, I want to ask you. This is a legitimately good question. So we touched, I touched on this like a little bit in the message, but not as much. So, So this is a legitimate question that Christians debate is you have this guy get raised from the dead.

That's right. And so Christian is like, why man, like I know I'm supposed to pray for people to be healed. Should I pray for people to be raised from the dead? So first of all, I'll just point this out. There are 10 times in the Bible where God raises somebody from the dead. I'm going to list them for you just for the Bible nerds out there. Elijah raises a boy from the dead, First King 17. Very similar to by the way.

Yeah, actually that's a little tie-in. I need to talk about that. That's a good point. Elisha raises another boy in Second Kings 4. There's a dude that gets thrown on the bones of Elisha in Second Kings 13. And when he touches the bones of Elisha, he gets raised him to dead. Jesus raises Jiris daughter in Luke 8. Jesus raises Lazarus in John 11.

God raises Jesus in all four of the Gospels. Peter raises Dorkas in Acts 9. Paul is right. Now, a lot of people don't count this one. I'm, this is a little, I'm firm on this. So in Acts 14, when Paul gets stoned, and then it says they left him outside the, I think it says in some translations they left him for dead.

Some people think, oh, they just didn't, they thought he was dead and he wasn't. I think he was dead. That's like my personal interpretation of Acts 14. So I think Paul was raised by believers praying for him in Acts 14. And then you got Paul right here raising Uticus in Acts 20. Now, let me go a little far. So basically, dude, what I'm going to say, and then we'll explain it for people who think

that it's weird. I do not think that it's wrong for a Christian to pray for someone who has died to be raised from dead. I'll be honest. I did that yesterday. Now, for people who think that's weird, let me say. And by the way, for people that don't know, that you're talking about Charlie Clark. Yeah, I did.

I did. When I heard that news, I paused. I was on a walk. And I did. I prayed for that. and the Lord did not answer that prayer. I want to talk about that. A couple other things.

Number one, you have this. Jesus, when he sends out some of his disciples, he literally, his command to them is he goes, here's what I want you to do. I want you to go in every city. And he goes, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the leper, cast out demons. And he literally, one of the things he said is,

you're my disciples. I want you go raise the dead. Wow. It's kind of interesting. Another couple church history nerd things. Early church, see, A lot of people, this is kind of stuff like people don't think about. The early church father, Ironaeus, people think about these early church fathers, like these stodgy old, like,

theologians. Yeah, like boring theologians. Ironaeus talks about a time when his church engaged in prayer and fasting, and it was, I'm going to quote it, was effective in raising someone from the dead. Wow. That's Irenaeus. Wow. St. Augustine, apparently in his book, The City of God, describes in its, addition to describing some healings, he says, quote, demon possession and even raising the dead. He

says this. Okay. Now, for if, here's what I say, dude, if you're a Christian and you hear that and you're like, stop, man. Like, you, that's, that's, nobody, that's, that's not even credible. Okay. I would like to quote Acts 268 to you, where Paul says, why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead? So I just, right, man. Listen, man, I'm not a faith healer. I'm a Bible believer. And I got nothing in the Bible that says, don't do it. Yeah. You have some examples in the Bible of Christians doing it. Is it rare? Yeah. That's why we call it a miracle, not Wednesday. But, man, I like, why would I not ask God to do something that would testify to the greatness of Jesus? There's some, I know today people debate this, obviously, when it comes to especially how the Holy Spirit still operate. And today. There's a, there seems to be some that would say, no, no, those things have ceased. And then other people would say, no, no, no, actually those things continue. We actually, we, we should pursue them. We should want, ask God to do these. What are those things? Explain that to us. Yeah, this is really good. So this is, and I'm going to give like a theological position

that I have that relates heavily to this. So the two, there's two theological positions. By the way, I started in one and shifted and now I'm the other one. The two positions for Theology Nerves is called cessationism versus continuationism. And you can kind of tell what they mean by the name. So cessationism is the view that they're called, cessationism label some of the more miraculous gifts in the New Testament. They label them quote unquote sign gifts. They'll say, I mean, there were some sign gifts that were a sign of the authentication of the truth of the gospel. And those gifts, what they would say were only gifts.

given either to the apostles or during the apostolic era for the purpose of authenticating the truth of Christianity. But then after that, this is their argument, is that those miraculous gifts ceased. That's why it's called cessationism, cease. I'm on team. It's called continuationism. And continuationism is the theological position that every gift in the New Testament, Now, this is a little theology nerdy. Notice that I said gift, not office. That's a whole different discussion, but that's for some weird niche online reform guys.

That all the gifts in the New Testament continue. That's what I'd call it. It's called continuationism for the purpose of the edification church in the advance of the gospel. Gifts such as. Yeah, the primary ones they'll do is prophecy, healing, and tongues. Those are the primary ones they'll do, prophecy healing in tongues. Can I give you the argument?

for cessationism? Please do. I was literally just going to say, bro, I'm going to be honest. Yeah. I don't get cessationism. Yeah. All right. So go ahead.

Please. All right. So I'll be honest, dude. Here's what, here's, now, I mean, listen, if you're a cessationist, I love you, and you think I'm an idiot. And I don't think you're an idiot. But I am just going to be blown about where I think some of this can come from. Um, I, uh, I honestly think most cessationists, uh, uh, I honestly think most cessationists, uh, and not all of them.

I think a lot of cessationists have that position because they've seen abuses of some of these claimed miraculous gifts. And they're honestly like, bro, every time I see somebody mess with it, it gets stinking weird and creepy. And they're like, I don't want to have any to do with it.

Or they'll say this. They'll go, man, hey, Carlos, when have you seen somebody with the spiritual gift of feeling? Are you watching people drop? handkerchiefs on people and getting raised from dead? Well, somebody who was born in Latin America. Like, the answer is actually like, like, actually, like, everywhere.

Okay. So, dude, you beat me to it. Okay. So honestly, you're way ahead of me. One of the things I was going to say, so I'm going to give the argument for cessationism and then why it's wrong. Okay. But I am.

I am. Please, please. But then I was going to finish by what, after I give the argument, cessationists will say, well, then why don't we see them? And my response to that is the only people who say that are Americans. Like literally in almost every other part of the world, people are like, oh yeah, miraculous stuff happens all the time and spirits are real. And just travel to, you know, Latin America, Africa.

Yeah, by the way, if people, people are listening don't know, maybe you're listening, not watching, Carlos from El Salvador. That's right. And grew up in what primarily what kind of churches down there? More charismatic? Charismatic Pentecostal. Yeah. I mean, we saw, I mean, a demon possess people.

I mean, everything, really. By the way, and let me just say this, we have seen overt, demonic manifestation at Lake Point. Yeah. So that's, you know, you see it probably a little more frequently elsewhere. I mean, I grew up, you know, seeing things. And, you know, I've read this story too, this pastor here in America talking to a pastor from Africa.

And the pastor from Africa was telling this pastor in America. It's like, hey, like, you know, I know you love theology and theology is important. Doctrine is important. But in my church in Africa, man, like people are, like, we got witches. We got, like, you know, demon possess people. And so we need, we need power. We need the Holy Spirit to, like I can't, you know, just to quote a Bible verse, which again, you know, we love the Bible. It is important.

But then when it comes to the gift of healing, of, you know, deliverance, all the things, there's something there that, like, man, it's necessary. A hundred. Dude, if there's unholy spirits, you need a Holy Spirit. There you go. And it's like, if you can't sense right now in our nation that there's such a thing as unhound. In fact, Trinney, I'm sending you one more thing. will you put up the thing that I literally just sent you right now? If right now in our nation,

you don't have clarity that there's a reality of unholy spirits, I don't know what to tell you. So we're going to talk about Charlie here in a second. But dude, this went like mega viral. So like two days before his assassination, just pause and, by the way, pause as a Christian. And like this is, there are no coincidences. So you have an account on X.

The title of the account is Jezebel. Okay, if you don't know who that is, that's a demonic figure in the Old Testament. She was a demonic queen that did more evil than any other leader in Israel. Then you fast forward to Revelation 2 and 3, and Jesus says to one of the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, this is what I have against you. You tolerate that woman Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my people to practice. to sexual immorality. What Jesus is doing when in Revelation 3, he harkens back to the name Jezebel from the Old Testament is he's not talking about that person or that woman. He's addressing

the spirit that was controlling her. And he's saying the same spirit that controlled the demonic queen in the Old Testament. He's controlling this woman that claims to be a prophetess, does not respect any spiritual authority, and does, you know, demonic things in the New Testament. Sorry, so check this out. So just pause and think about this. You have this account called Jesuit. Ezebel named after a literal demon, and then they tweet two days before the assassination of Charlie Kirk, we paid some Etsy witches to curse Charlie Kirk. And then two days later, the guy's dead. Now, am I saying that that's like a direct one-to-one?

It's because of some curses of some witches that happened to Charlie. I'm like really, really doubtful on that because greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world. And in Christ, we're more than conquerors through him who loved us. However, I just, I don't think there are coincidences. And if you can't see the correlation between an account that's literally named after a demon that has, by the way, like 900,000 followers. It's like a pagan sex in the city, you know, feminist account, which is, by the way, which is like actually what Jezebel was in Revelation 3. So you have an account named after a demon that is tweeting, hey, we actually got in contact with some other demons. And so anyway, I'm just saying, dude, like there are unholy.

Spirit, we need the actual power of the Holy Spirit. And honestly, it's sobering because, you know, we hear this verse a lot and we're like, oh, yeah, we've heard that. But Ephesians chapter 6, verse 12, for our struggle, it is not against flesh and blood. It's not against the people that we see. But it is against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces, supernatural, evil spiritual forces in the heavenly realms. That's exactly.

And so, like, the idea that we find in scripture that we are literally, in a real spiritual war is a thing. And I think honestly, and again, as somebody who's lived half of my life in a different continent, or I guess Central America, and being here now, honestly, it's easy to forget. We're just kind of like, well, you know, there's a lot of things, mental health. And yes, obviously, some of those things are a thing as well. But it is easy sometimes to overlook the reality of the spiritual realm. Amen. All right, let me finish this stuff. Let's finish this stuff on cessationism and continuationism because I honestly, man, I think this is like really important for Christians to have down deep in their bones that the Holy

Spirit has power for you today. And I think how it's it. And he's the same yesterday, today and forever. Amen. So this is really important to me. And then let's move on. Let's call, we'll pull Ryan in. We got Ryan, but to join in a bit.

Oh, do we? That's great, man. He's ready anytime. Yes, yes. That's great. He's excited. I love that guy. All right. So let me hit this and we'll pull Ryan and talk about Charlie. So first, so here's, if you're asking like, bro, I don't even, you said, I don't even know where a cessationist get their thing. So here's primarily where they get it. Number one, they're kind of going like, well, I'm looking around and I don't see a bunch of people healing people. But you'll notice it's almost always like white, it's like white Western Europeans or Americans are the own ones to say that. So that's number one. Number two, here's a verse they point to. One of the verses they point to is in First Corinthians 13. What's up, Brian?

Can he hear us yet? He probably is about to hear us in just a second. Oh, okay. I'm going to keep going. I'm going to keep going. Oh, we got to, but yeah, finish it. Let me get gone. Then we're full in Ryan.

Ryan, hang tight for just like a minute. Love you, brother. Okay. So the other thing that cessationist will do is the point to 1st Corinthians 13. And here's like their keystone verse. So you heard this at your, you know, it's your sister's wedding. Everybody reads this verse. It does all love stuff.

And then it goes, love never fails. And then it says this. But where there are prophecies, they will cease. And cessationists are like, we were really hoping all the prophecies would cease. So where there are tongues, they will be stilled. Where there is knowledge,

I think there's one translation that says words of knowledge, it will pass away. And then they go, and then it says, for we know in part and we prophesied in part, but when the completeness comes, what is in part disappears. All right, now check this out.

So cessationists go, But that verse just said, prophecies, tongues, and words of knowledge will cease and pass away. Okay? And I'm like, yes, you're absolutely right that it does. The question is, when? When, okay? This passage, it tells us, so check this out. Here's what it says in verse 12.

It says, for now, we see only a reflection as in a mirror. Then, so the then is referring to the when all those things will pass away. then we shall see face to face. Pop quiz, Carlos Arazo. When are we going to see Jesus face to face? After death? Yes. When he returns or when you go to heaven.

So it's very obvious. This is not talking about the end of the apostolic era when those gifts sees. It's very obvious. This is talking about when Jesus returns and I can talk to him, I don't need you to prophesy to me anymore. So anyway, we could keep going on.

Acts 2 specifically talks about how in the last days. I'm going to pour out my spirit on your people, your sons and daughters will prophesy. So it's going, hey, man, even in the last days, these gifts are going to be active. It specifically says that in Acts chapter 2. Jesus tells his disciples in John 14. He's like, hey, man, whoever believes in me, you're going to do greater things than me. So anyway, the big idea is I honestly all love to cessationist brothers and sisters, but I want to speak clearly. I think cessationism is worldliness that comes from rubbed off secularism that people end up almost turning into like this veneer of theology frequently, not always, but frequently. And let me just

finish by saying, here's why this is important for Christians to get down deep in your bones. Listen, man, this is so important. Because in the New Testament, New Testament evangelism, Paul says this in Romans 15, that his evangelism strategy was to share the gospel by, listen, by word and deed and the power of signs and wonders. That's actually part of a new Testament Church's evangelism strategy. We're going to pray for miracles to happen, and then lost people will see miracles happen, and they'll go, well, dang, I guess Jesus is a thing. And if you start believing that all this stuff has ceased, and I know cessationists will be like,

well, I'm just saying the gifts have ceased, not answered prayers, but anyway, it's like, if you start believing this stuff has ceased, you will not pray for it with faith, and we have not because we ask not, and we will not see what Jesus wants. wants to do to convince the world of his reality. Can I say the last one last thing? Please do. I desire that. Oh my gosh, dude.

I have a desperation for God to give me whatever it is the Holy Spirit has for me. I'm like, Holy Spirit, please, I want it. And you can do it. And somebody joining right now, you can too. That's right. God wants to give you more. Exactly right, man. There is more.

Let's go. Well, hey guys, one of the reasons we are intentional in creating these kind of podcast episodes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships. Having said that, what we want to do through the Live Free Podcasts is we want to model what it looks like to be in a discipleship group, where we come together and open up the Word of God together and grow together as followers of Jesus to live free in Christ. For this reason, we love that you're tuning in, but honestly, we don't just want you to be a passive listener, we want you to be an active participant.

And so if you have not yet joined a group, you need to get into Rooted. Rooted is a 10-week discipleship experience that helps you grow closer to God, build meaningful relationships, and discover the purpose he has for your life. Rooted guides you to practice the seven rhythms of following Jesus to transform your faith

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A, just for, yeah, yeah, man. So just for listeners, here's why I wanted Ryan to come on. Number one, Ryan is my friend. Ryan and I've known each other for a lot of years. We probably text on average multiple times per day, for sure. Yeah. We keep up. And he's honestly, he's just a great, he's one of the best verse-by-verse Bible teachers in America.

I genuinely believe that. and I'll listen to you. I'll listen to stuff all the time. And he's just, he's a friend, great pastor. His church is absolutely exploding in the Phoenix area. And Ryan, you're just a good man with a great family. In addition to that,

Ryan has had, you've had a decent relationship with Charlie, been to your church, and you guys, like, had a relationship. And then I don't think I'm blowing the lid off anything I'm not supposed to. last night turning point called Ryan to come and minister to their staff and so um man ryan just welcome man guys thanks for having me uh good to see friendly faces at time like this you know it's been a difficult day uh been sad you know and just kind of in shock over what happens

i met charlie uh several years ago a mutual friend introduced us we had a dinner got to know him And then one thing he made really clear right off the bat was just that he was here in Arizona, stationed in Arizona, living in Arizona with his family. But he also cared about the churches in Arizona and pastors that were in this area and around the country. So we had the opportunity to do stuff together, and he prioritized that. And I'm grateful to have known him a little bit and sad that what just took place happened. I think we're all kind of shocked. I was.

Carlos is the one who texted me when it happened. I'll be honest, man. It shook me, like, more than I thought something like that would. I just took, like, a long walk to regain my center. Yes. Yes, I mean, I was in shock. Just my, I felt like my, it was one of those things where you don't want to believe it. And when you hear people talk about, like, being in denial, I think I can relate to that a little bit.

Because, I mean, I was starting to see. videos on the internet of what happened. And even in my brain was wanting to tell myself, like, well, maybe this is AI and it's not real. And you know, you just don't want to think that something like that has happened to someone that you care about. Yeah, dude. Well, dude, Ryan, do you mind like, because honestly, man, I've been hearing for years from

you about just things about, like, who Charlie was as a man. And I don't know, man, do you want to share a little bit about, you know, things that people might not have known about him. We're going to, so real quick, Ryan and I like, we've been texting, there's some, like, very spiritual things happening and things that this illuminates and that, like, truths that is bringing to the surface.

We want to talk about that in a second. But, Ron, do you want to share, like, some things that people might not have known about Charlie and then maybe what's your time at Turning Point was like last night? Yeah, you know, one of the things that Charlie shared, and all this is, you know, none of this is in confidence, but he talked about his childhood and growing up in church and going to church every week and taking notes as his pastor taught through books of the Bible and keeping all of those notes. And it's very clear when you meet him how the Bible shaped his worldview.

And he's such an impressive guy, so articulate, so intelligent. But the Bible was the foundation of everything that he said and believed. was genuine. One of the things that struck me about Charlie when I met him and all the time that I was in private with him is, you know, in public, he comes off so confident and strong. And when you meet someone who's like that in public and they're famous and they're influential, you kind of wonder like, well, what are these people like in private? What are they going to be like? And I was surprised that he was incredibly humble, kind, respectful of everything. everyone that he talked to. He never acted like he was more important than anyone else. He was never short with other people or entitled. He was just genuinely caring and courteous. And one of the things that was really cool is I could tell that even though Charlie talked a lot about political and cultural issues, his passion was Jesus. And, you know, for about a year, ago, he came to my church on a Wednesday night. It was almost a year ago exactly from last night.

And he spoke at a men's event. And he just offered to come by after a busy day, you know, speaking to millions of people. And when he got there, you know, I was just, you know, what do you want to talk about Charlie? And he's like, I don't really want to talk about politics. And he's like, I want to talk about the church. Dude, I remember you saying this and it blew my mind. I know. I had no idea what he was going to say. I thought he might want to just kind of riff on some, you know, news of the day or something he'd already been thinking about a lot. But he's like, no, I don't want to talk about politics. He was zero interest. He wanted to talk about Jesus, the church, how men should rise up to be godly leaders in their families and in their churches and in the community.

He wanted to talk about spiritual matters. And that was a passion for him. It was really cool. As I interviewed him that night, guys from the church asked questions. And he, you know, being Charlie just answered so articulately and intelligently. But then at the end of the night, we just kind of stopped and we said to the room, and there were a lot of guests in the room, he just said, hey, if you love Charlie or if you appreciate him, maybe you're a fan of him and the things that he stands for, you need to know that everything he stands for is rooted in Jesus Christ. And Charlie was just like, amen. And we led a salvation invite in that moment in about 25 guys from the community who weren't members of my church accepted Jesus that night.

Jeez, dude. And one of the things that was so cool was Charlie's team, you know, they have all the opportunities in the world, invitations to go all over the place. He, they specifically told me that he was scaling back on his regular engagements before the election because he wanted to have more time to go to churches and specifically encourage pastors to be bold in their preaching and bold. in their leadership. Ryan, I've been following Charlie for a while.

It seems to me like in the last two to three years, like that was more and more frequent, where he was just really outspoken about his faith. He was very much so intentional. And any question I was asked, he would tie it back into his faith. This is, he would be very explicit in, hey, I'm a follower of Jesus.

He is my Lord and Savior. Is that something that you've seen as well? Or is it just me that, you know, over the years, I've just, Judge, have you seen that? Yeah. Or did you see that? Yeah, I mean, I think we were realizing all of us kind of seeing Charlie, it was clarifying for him, crystallizing for him, that the church of Jesus Christ is probably the most powerful force on earth.

And he wanted to bring about change for the good. And he knew that, yes, voting is important. Yes, cultural, political issues are important. But what the church can do through the power of the Holy Spirit, through our witness, is unstoppable. And I think that's why he started to prioritize churches and pastors more. He started to share his faith more because we know this as church leaders that you can make a really compelling cultural argument about political matters. But when you take it back to the truth of God's word, which is inspired by God and it compels people by the power of God. Like no one can argue with that.

They might fight it, but it's just undeniably true. bro do we have that clip did you guys do you got that clip can we pull it up where like he can see it too okay can we play go ahead and play that clip this is where he confess us yeah the the guy with the demonic thing asked him about bro so like so before we play this clip to what ryan just said so did you ryan did you watch mark's youtube stream i just saw few minutes of it here and there okay so like hit whit mart ryan and i have a mutual pastor friend uh that that was that was was also good friends with Charlie. And so Charlie had been telling Mark,

he was sharing some text messages, that he wanted to pivot. Dude, I'll get emotional talking about. He wanted to pivot in his future years into being primarily evangelism and only secondarily politics and cultural engagement. And dude, it's like, you know, honestly, the reason that makes me emotional

is because he had such, a unique ability to communicate, especially to young men, in a rhetorically forceful way about the truth of Jesus. And he was just all out, like, no holds barred. So in fact, let's show this clip real quick. Can we go ahead and show that? Yeah, check this out. This is like one of my favorites. You a Christian? Very, very much. So why is that exactly? Oh, Jesus saved my life. I'm a sinner. Give my life to Christ. Most important decision I ever made. So you believe the Bible is real? Yes, I believe the Bible is true and real. Why is that?

Well, I could give you the technical answer. There's never been an archaeological discovery that has contradicted the truth of the Bible. And then, of course, the wisdom. There is not a truth of the Bible that if you apply to your life, your life does not improve dramatically. And then finally, we have the most accurate

and transparent, historically robust account that one can have of the most important figure ever to live in the history of the world, Jesus of Nazareth. And the resurrection is the pinpoint of my belief that Jesus did rise from the grave so that we may live. What makes Christian mythology real?

So that's not mythology, but that is theology. If Genesis 1-1 and the resurrection is true, anything in the Bible is possible. You're looking at the greatest miracle. The greatest miracle is creation. And then the fact that Jesus rose from the dead, and I say, how do you know that Jesus rose from the dead? Well, show me another historical piece of a story where so many people willingly died, a brutal death for a lie. Every single person around him had everything to lose, and yet they went to the absolute death from Paul. to Peter to the half-brother of James saying that Jesus is Lord, Jesus rose from the dead.

Not to mention, if you were going to fake a story, you would not use female witnesses in the ancient world. In the scriptures, it said that the women were the first one to see Jesus Christ. If you're trying to fake a story, you would never do that. Well. Dude, honestly, when I watch that, I'm just like, I'm so proud of that young man. Because honestly, people forget, like, bro, that guy. Was he 32 or 31? 31.

one. Yeah, man. It's just, yeah, that's amazing. Well, you want to pivot, Ryan? Or you want to pivot, Carlos? Yeah, man, let me ask you guys some things. So honestly, people are seeing thing after thing in the news. That Wednesday, I woke up reading about the Ukrainian girl who was stabbed in a public train. And then that afternoon, we're hearing about Charlie. And then you hear just, you know, months before, you know, Catholic school shooting. I think at the time of this recording, the another school shooting in Colorado High School, man, if somebody's just asking like, man, what is going, like just what's going on?

Like, can somebody please explain to me why it seems like we're seeing thing after thing after thing? And then like, what should I make of it? As a Christian, what should I make of this? You want it? I'll jump into it. It seems like what's happening right now is things are coming to a head where the increase in violence directly correlates to the conviction that people feel regarding truth and sin and deception.

And, you know, I think going back to what Charlie was working towards was a political victory last year for the sake of our country, which he loved, and he cared about. and then we have those who are opposed to truth into God's word and to what we stand for, who maybe they feel somewhat like they took an L. They took a defeat in the election cycle, and things aren't necessarily going their way. And I can't help but think that there's somewhat of a backlash,

that they're not willing to go easily just because they lost an election and their ideology isn't getting advanced. There's a lashing out. There's always an attempt to cower those who oppose evil. And so I think that's why we're seeing the uptick in violence right now. There's always been violence in our world, but it's more prominent now. It's spread quicker. And I think it is causing Christians to have to reflect.

Like, do I really believe this? Do I want to stand for this? Do I want to face potential danger in mind? my life because we go, hey, I believe the same things Charlie believed. And so do you guys. And someone was willing to kill him for it. What does that mean for me? What does that mean for my wife and kids? And Christians are all asking ourselves these types of questions. The reality is that those are the reality. That's what people who believed in Jesus have had to deal with for thousands of years. And it's actually unusual that we didn't have to deal with that as much in the first

part of our lives. Now we're coming back face to face with it. So it's time to look in the mirror and ask like do I really believe what I say I believe am I going to stand for Jesus even in a world where there's danger and persecution bro it is like I think I text you this so after after it was announced that he died I took a second walk and I thought back to that the Jesus thing where he's like hey man before you follow me you you make sure you go and count the cost because what builder doesn't start building before he did or else the tower won't be finished that kind of thing. And honestly, man, I think there's like, there's a few moments in every Christian's life where I think you need to take a long walk and ask yourself the question,

am I willing to die for this? And then you need to make sure the answer is yes. And I do think that that was one of that minutes for me. You know, Carlos, you were asking, now why, you know, okay, this uptake, why, I want to dovetail off what Ryan said and say two things. And then Ryan, I'd love, you say things better than me a lot, so you can riff off what I say. Just, you know, you can riff a little bit. Can you guys throw that picture of the dude celebrating Charlie getting shot? Ryan and I have a mutual pastor friend that sent us this picture of somebody in Seattle. You know, it's Charlie Kirk shot and they say, hell yes, exclamation point, exclamation point with a heart.

And you can take it down. but it's like, and you're seeing, like honestly, dude, it's not isolated. You're seeing like mainstream progressives. It's a main, it's one of the mainstream reactions to celebrate the death of Charlie Kirk. I want to say two things. We're preaching through the book of Acts, and every single time the book of Acts, the pattern is revival, riot, revival, riot, revival, riot. revival riot because every time there's an action of the Holy Spirit, there is an equal and

opposite reaction of unholy spirits the Bible calls demons. And when my buddy sent me that picture of, you know, rainbow flag, Seattle, sign, Charlie Kirk's shot, exclamation point, exclamation point, hell yes. Honestly, man, that is an overtly demonic reaction. And there is part of me that was like, I hope hell is rejoicing when I die to because I lived so aggressively for the glory of God that they're throwing a party when I'm out of the fight. That's an old C.S. Lewis quote. So there was part of me that was like, that watches this like very overtly demonic reaction to the slaughtering of Charlie. And I'm going like badge of honor. Badge of honor that all of hell is like, hallelujah, that guy's hugging Jesus. The other thing

thing I'd say, and, man, this is one where like, let me just, you know, this is going to take me like two or three minutes to say this. And then, Ryan, I'd love for you to jump in with some comments here. There are a lot of Christians, I think, who, even this podcast, they may listen and be like, well, you know, he said, he stood for some things that I'm not sure I was with. Maybe I was for, like, a higher marginal tax rate. And, you know, I, you know, I wish we would be a little more compassionate, you know, quote unquote, compassionate. other issues and maybe you're a Christian that you know maybe on some areas you sort of lean maybe left and I just I want to point something out to you really quick that I think this moment

should make very stark for Christians okay so if you have not noticed yet it is simply an undeniable fact there is a radically disproportionate amount of violence that comes from the modern progressive left. So I'm going to give you, this is not an exhaustive list, and this is just data. So if you're struggling with what I'm saying right now, just stick with me. All right. So 2017, you have the congressional baseball shooting where it's like attempted assassinations of conservative politicians. You have the extremely damaging and bloody Black Lives Matter riots of 2020. I think 13 people were killed and billions of dollars of damage done. Then you have the antififar riots and the assaults that happened to the ongoing aftermath of 2020.

You have the killing of Aaron, quote unquote, J. Danielson in 2020. You have the Nashville school shooting, transgender school shooting, 2023. Attempted Trump assassination number one, 2024. Attempted Trump assassination number two, 2024, where the guy literally after he was caught said, well, he's literally Hitler. That was like the language. Here's why I'm trying to do this. Put a bookmark in that.

I'm coming back to that. then you have the Nashville Catholic school shooting, 2003. Then you have in 2024, the United Healthcare CEO murder in a broad daylight. Just dude gets shot right in the back, guy with a family. And by the way, once again, you saw a large cheering from parts of the progressive left on that. You have ongoing attacks on ICE agents in 2024 and going on. We just covered it in the podcast. This was like two weeks ago.

You have the Annunciation Catholic school shooting in just a few weeks ago. It was like overtly demonic transgender shooting. Carlos, you already mentioned the Ukrainian, the white Ukrainian girl. They got stabbed to death in, I think that was Charlotte. And the guy walks away and he literally says, I got that white girl. So there's an overtly stated racial aspect to it. And then you have the Charlie Kirk assassination that happened yesterday as they're recording this podcast. Okay, let me just point this out.

Violence, particularly political violence, is a feature, not a bug of secular progressivism, and every Christian everywhere needs to understand that reality, I don't care how awkward it is to say that. So like the reason for that is secular progressivism is built on a critical theory lens that views the world through oppressed and oppressor categories. It's not built on a Christian theology lens that views the world through sin righteousness categories. So here's what that does. is it trains its adherence. Progressives through, you know, critical theory indoctrination.

They're trained to view people who disagree with them as evil oppressors instead of people who are simply mistaken. So in general, people who like broadly identify conservative were like, oh man, they're wrong. I'd say they're wrong and they're dangerously wrong. But I view the world through a right and wrong category lens, whereas critical theory trains people to think through an oppressed oppressor lens. So that trains people to think the people who disagree with me are evil oppressors. That's a big deal. Because if I think that you're wrong, that's why I think's wrong, then I'm going to try to persuade you, which is what Charlie did. He would

go on to college campuses. We're going to have an interchange of ideas. I'm going to try to persuade you. But if I think that you're not simply mistaken, I think you're an evil oppressor, then I can't just ignore that, and I can't just try to persuade you, I begin to feel a moral obligation to oppose you. So that's why you get this thing where, like, secular progressivism is constantly, he's literally Hitler. They're an existential threat to democracy, fascist dictators, like everyone everywhere and everything gets labeled as racist. Well, why is that? Because the whole ideology is built on the critical theory lens of seeing the world as oppressed versus oppressors. And the reason you're seeing radically disproportionate violence bubble up on the left

is because they have been indoctrinated to think we have to rise up against the evil oppressors. Okay. Agree, disagree, additional comments. It's a great framework. And I totally agree. You can go all the way back to the Old Testament prophets. And they couldn't shut them up so they killed them. And that's what the enemy does. He steals, kills, and destroys. Whereas, like, as Christians, we're children of God, and we want other people to repent of sin and turn to Jesus

and be saved and adopted into our own spiritual family. So we look to, like, persuade our opponents. We look to change their minds. We look to convert them. We reluctantly will at times be willing to stop evil doers, not out of hate for them, but out of love for the people who are vulnerable, who depend on us. And so our motivation is totally different, whereas ideology is just a reflection of the heart, these different political matters that come up. It's a reflection of a completely different

heart positioning spiritually. And this is not like just a Democrat, Republican, left, first right, thing. We're living in the middle of what's essentially a spiritual war. And we know Ephesians 6 says that our battle is not against flesh and blood. It's a spiritual war. But the spiritual war definitely spills over into the physical realm. So there are people in this world today who are influenced by evil forces. And they don't realize that they've got a worldview and ideology that's shaped that way and because of the things that it is. But they're willing to destroy those who stand against them. And that's a scary reality.

I'll just share this because it kind of ties into both elements of what you just said, Josh, is going back to last year, before the election, Charlie asked me to host J.D. Vance at our church for a rally. It wasn't a church event, but just was a, a rally where they used the church building. And we were talking before the event in private. And Charlie said, like, he was very aware of the fact that if the Democratic side won the election, he expected very, he said this straight face was not exaggerating. This wasn't hyperbole. He said he expected to be in jail within the next few years. He believed that the other side would wage

lawfare and find a way to put him and his team in jail. And I honestly thought they were kidding a little bit when they first said that, but they were not. And so he realized the high stakes of what he was doing and that, you know, he might not be there to see his kids grow up. And he was looking at it from that context. Like, I could be, I could be in prison. And we saw that, we saw that, that was something that they kind of tried to do with

President Trump was stop him with law. and things like that. And when they couldn't stop him with lawfare, they tried to kill him. Kill him. And so it goes back to like, dude, this is just a reality of spiritual warfare.

We have an enemy who seeks to steal, kill, and destroy. The political stuff is just one of the ways that it manifests. We're not used to seeing political disagreements spill over into like blood combat,

but that is the reality that we face today. We do have to look in the mirror, I think, as Christian, and ask ourselves the question, like, am I willing to die for this? That's one of the things I think that hits the hardest. Like, I'll get emotional too, is just thinking like, this guy's kids won't grow up knowing the love of their dad.

They'll hear about him being a great man, but they won't know him relationally the way that they could have. And I think about my daughter, you know, and I think about our kids and just, we don't want them to experience that type of pain. When we get up and preach the truth from God's word and it draws opposition, when we talk about difficult controversial ideas on a podcast like this that make people uncomfortable,

we're not doing it to be controversial or shock jocks or just to get clicks and likes. We're talking about the difference between life and death and the spiritual war that is waging right now, for the soul of our country. And we'll have an impact on our kids and future generations. Man, to highlight what you guys are saying, there's a study done, the American World View Inventory I.

They found that only about 4% of Americans hold beliefs consistent with the core truth of what the Bible teaches. And that number has been dropping in the last 25 years. And so... 4%. 4%? And so, like 60% will identify as Christians. but only 4% really hold Bible teaching.

Ryan, we got work to do. And especially with this new generation, honestly, because obviously Charlie spoke to this new generation. And among millennials, there's like statistics that says that only 40% of them now, up to 40% identify as none or non-religious. And here's the thing that I think, especially this new generation, they're trying to figure it out. Everybody is religious in one way or another.

Right? And so just because you stop being religious, It doesn't mean that now you don't have a religion. It just means that something else is your religion. And so what happens is when you remove God from your religious heart, you start to fill it with something else. And so now in our culture, you see we have removed God and we've replaced it with, you know, obviously people's own secular ideology, with secular progressivism, with people's own political perspectives or opinion. That's not just an opinion. Now that's your religion. And so now that becomes your God.

And that's what the Bible calls an idol. And so when you idolize something and somebody disagrees with your idol, that's called blasphemy. Yeah. Right. And now it's no longer just a person with a different worldview to debate. Now you have to destroy them. And so that's what I think we're seeing today in our culture when, again, it's this whole idea of like, you disagree with me. Your words are violent towards me.

Therefore, I can justify violence towards you. And so it's just, but it's this idea. Again, goes back to what's in your heart. What's taking the place of God in your heart? Man, let me ask you this. For people that are obviously wrestling with all these emotions, especially anger, if somebody's asking, is it wrong for me as a Christian to be angry or to have a righteous anger? Where's the line between pursuing justice, showing mercy?

Is it okay to even, obviously, when you see social media, everybody is, lots of people are enraged. Is vengeance an option? like how do you pursue justice as a Christian and yet hold on to mercy? Let me say a couple things and then, you know, Ryan's really good with this type of thing. So first of all, you know, it's like moments like these and even last week with the dude to stab the Ukrainian girl to death on video camera, it's like the death penalty is a good and just and biblical thing. And so we should, I think Christians can somehow, we're supposed to be people of mercy.

Yep, but then there's also a God ordained role. The government, Romans 13, says the government does not, quote, bear the sword for no reason. It says the government's, literally, it says the government is supposed to be a terror to those who do wrong. In fact, this is a really interesting verse. Book of Ecclesiastity says, because a sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. So, like, this may sound really aggressive, but like, dude, we're Bible people and everything God commands is good. And what I'm getting ready to say is going to sound harsh, but it's actually not out of hatred for the wrongdoer.

It's actually out of love for the victims of the wrongdoer and the protection of the vulnerable that the wrongdoer might victimize. but honestly, the biblical thing to do in the Old Testament and then reaffirmed in Romans 13, it would probably be something like a public execution. In the Old Testament, that's what you have. Agree? Agree. Yeah, totally. Yeah, Old Testament, in the Old Testament law, it's public stonings for murderers who shed innocent blood.

And the reason for that is to instill a holy fear of God and fear. fear of civil justice in the hearts of wrongdoers. Why? To protect vulnerable people. That's one thought. You want to piggy? Yeah, I'll first say, you know, when we see all these horrible images and videos, just like pastorally, I want to just encourage people to be careful about what you watch. And you don't need to see all these videos. You don't need to watch every violent clip on the internet. We're not really meant by God to see that kind of stuff. We weren't originally designed to see that kind of death and suffering. And it is horrific. It's traumatic. So I'd be careful with what you take in with your eyes. And if you find yourself just feeling aghast

and horrified by that, it's normal to feel that way. We should not become calloused to seeing image bearers of God brutally murdered. It's a horrible thing. Then I would go to grief is a healthy and normal emotion. And I think Christians sometimes wrestle with this because we know that the joy of the Lord is our strength, and we're supposed to rejoice in all things. And so we almost sometimes feel guilty that we're sad because we already intellectually know the answer

that, hey, well, these fellow believers are in heaven. But it's actually okay to give yourself permission to mourn and grieve loss or tragedy. Jesus wept, and he already knew that there would be total victory over. over sin and death. So grieving is actually a healthy thing. It's a cathartic thing. It's a way to honor people's lives who we've lost and we loved. And then it's normal to feel anger. And there is a righteous type of anger that people can feel over injustice. God gets angry over injustice.

And that's something that not a lot of Christians have thought about. Like imagine God being anger. It's not as angry. It's not a sin to be angry. The Bible says, in your anger, do not sin. So you can be angry about injustice, just mad. But that's not an excuse to lose your temper or to lash out sinfully against people, even if you feel like they deserve it. I think we have to feel those human emotions and bring them to God,

knowing that he cares for us in our weakness. and in our pain and even in our anger. And then as Christians, we want to harness that righteous anger for good and let it become resolved to do what's right, resolve to preach the gospel, resolve to reach people for Jesus. And then I would say, you hit on this, Josh, is there is a healthy desire for human justice. God establishes governance in the family, in the church, and in society. And Romans 13 is clear, One of the roles of societal government is to reward the good and punish the wicked.

It's a warning to other would-be evil-doers. Don't do this or else you're going to get the same, which is why I do think we should have public executions. After a fair and speedy trial, it's also a way to protect would-be victims from experiencing the same. We need to punish the evil-doer. And as a Christian, if you find yourself longing for justice, like, man, I want to see a murderer punished.

Like, that is not a sinful desire to have. God is a God of justice. And ultimately, every sin is punished. For Christians, we know that Jesus was punished for our sins, so we don't have to bear the punishment. That's why I think even when we see evildoers face justice or punishment, we can feel a type of righteous satisfaction in it Without that becoming an unhealthy or sinful glee in the suffering of others,

we can righteously be satisfied in justice. It's not revenge, it's justice. So that's just kind of a complex, I think, range of, like, emotions and things that are like simultaneously true at the same time. Like, I'm sad. That's right. I'm angry. I want justice.

I want evil doers, though, to also be saved and know Jesus. but then at the same time I want justice. And like, what do you do with that? It's like, well, we're humans, man. Like, we're not meant to be the ones who figure it all out and resolve it perfectly. It's messy, isn't it? So let me say a few things. And then, Ryan, I want to kick it back to you if there's anything else that you're like,

man, I think Christians need to think about this right now. I'm going to kick it back to you in a second. But as far as like what Christians need to do, in addition to what Ryan just said, I really would. When something strikes you like that, I would encourage every crit, take a walk and make sure would I lay my life down for this? And make sure the answer is yes. And the Lord will meet you in that. And there's actually a beauty, a redeeming aspect of the moment and something like that.

We also have commands to Christians. Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse. Vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the Lord. And so, well, you guys, throw that picture up of the one, the one. where the students are praying, and then the ones where the cities burn it down. So this is, that right there is the difference

in the way that Christians react to tragedy and the way that people who are not Christians react to tragedy. It's, man, we're people who are called, we are not people of vengeance. Christians are law-abiding citizens. That's what Christians are called to be. And so we channel all of that emotion that Ryan's talking about into things like prayer. You can take it down.

Prayer, honestly, dude, like channeling that energy into doing what Charlie was doing and making sure that everybody everywhere knows that this is like one of his last tweets was it's all about Jesus. You channel that energy in that direction. And then last thing I'd say is, and dude, you know, it's like, like last night. It was totally irrational, but it's the kind of thing that's normal and human is that Janet was like, hey, I'm, you know, I'm a little nervous about you being on stage in front of thousands of people and da-da-da-da. And honestly, man, it was really good for my soul to go back to Acts chapter four when the persecution breaks out on the church. And they

gather for that prayer meeting. And, you know, they say, I'm going to quote it, why did the Gentiles rage and the people's plot in vain against the Lord and his anointed? And then they say, they say, they pray, consider their threats and grant your servants boldness to continue testifying to the truth without fear. And honestly, it is a thing where it's like, okay, man, let me go back and remember. Whoever did that, They weren't just trying to do something to Charlie. They were, you know, they're trying to send a message to other people. But it's like, no, no, man.

We are men and women of God. We have not been given a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power and of love and a right mind. And so we need to have something in our souls that says, Lord, consider their threats and grant your servant's boldness to continue to testify to the truth without fear. But yeah. On that note, Jesus said in Matthew 1618,

I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I think we hear that verse, but we don't realize gates are actually defensive structures. They're not offensive weapons. And so when Jesus said, I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it, Jesus didn't say, hey, hell is attacking. And so you've got to hang in there. He didn't say that. He said, hell's gates won't stand against my church going in.

And so the church is not in defense. It's an offense. And so to your point, Josh, like, man, we're called to move by faith by the grace of God with fearlessness and our trust in the Lord. and God, we have not received the fearful spirit. We have received the Holy Spirit. Amen. Ryan, you got last words here on just like stuff this journey. You're like, man, I think Christians need to be aware of this right now.

Yeah. I'm thankful that when I was in my young 20s and I deployed to Iraq, I remember my first mission I went on. It went through my head this thought, like, I could die, which you don't usually think about when you're in your young 20s. You kind of feel like you're invincible up until. that point. And I had this realization like, oh yeah, I guess I could die. Like if I die, I die. Like, oh, well, there's no point like letting that paralyze me or living in fear, right? And I almost feel like that was a gift in some ways before entering into ministry in this season when people who love Jesus are ultimately dying for their beliefs. And I think that's true with Charlie

is he wasn't preaching from a pulpit yesterday, but all of his beliefs were shaped by his biblical views and we believe the same things as Christians today and I think like Josh what you felt and the thought that went through your head what Janham mentioned it's like so normal to think that like I had that kind of thought go through my head as well yesterday like man someone could take a shot at me and I'd just be preaching and that would just be terrible it's just a human thing to think about what are they ultimately trying to do they're trying to stop us from saying what we're saying and living the way that we live believing what we believe that we believe that That's why the religious leaders arrested Peter and John and had them beaten.

Stop preaching the name of Jesus. They wanted to shut them up. And it was a threat. It was you will stop preaching the name of Jesus or else. And like you mentioned, the Christians had a natural fearful reaction. We can't always help it when fear rises up in us. That's just like a normal kind of reaction a lot of times. But as Christians, I think we can choose how we respond to fear.

we could say okay well I'm going to play it safe and I'm going to be a little bit less controversial a little less aggressive because I don't I don't want to you know I don't want someone to take a shot at me I don't want my kids to grow up without a dad but that's not the right way to respond we can't on the other hand we can take our fear like the early church did to the Lord and say God we we are feeling a little overwhelmed we are we are a little bit afraid right now we need your help and that's when in Acts 4 it says they were filled with the Holy Spirit these these are the same Christians who I think we're filled with the Holy Spirit in Acts chapter two on the day of Pentecost, but it mentions them being filled with the Holy Spirit again. There was a new threat.

It was a new day. And they needed a new filling of the Holy Spirit to be bold for Jesus in their world. Just like we need today. We need the same thing today, the same solution to a new threat today. We need more of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Ryan, excuse me. to see your face, buddy. You too. I needed that. I needed to see your face. I know. Amen. Amen. Amen. Man, I'm proud to be your friend and I'm really grateful for your wisdom today, man. Ryan, would you pray for our people? Yes, yes. Amen. Jesus, we need you and we just come to you with all of our confusion and questions about the world. and honestly a lot of us are just hurting today and we're sad and we're angry and we're confused

like we just don't always understand what's happening around us but we know that you're our answer our hope is in you and that you are strong and unshakable even when the world around us is shaking so i ask lord that for all of your children that you would fill us with your spirit give us courage to be bold for Jesus, give us a heart to even love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. We want to see lost people, not defeated or destroy, but we want to see them transformed by the gospel of Jesus Christ. We want them to know the resurrection power of Jesus for themselves, because we know that in you, Lord, there is life. I pray that everyone who hears this message today would be encouraged by your spirit, that they would be reminded of your promises, that you will

never leave us or forsake us, and that in you, we are already more than conquerors. We already are victorious, so we can look forward to our ultimate victory. And even when we're confused and unsure about what's happening around us, we know that you are unchanging, and you are good. And you will work even bad things together for good. So we trust you, Lord, and we thank you in advance for the ways that you are going to turn this tragedy around and use it for good in the days ahead. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howardton.

We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review, and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you. you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Point Church online every weekend and find more resources at lakepoint.church slash live free. We'll see you next time.