Live Free with Josh Howerton - Does the Bible Support Abortion?! | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

What would change if you lived every day with eternity in mind? In this impactful episode, Pastors Josh Howerton, Carlos Erazo, and Paul Cunningham dive into Scripture to help you redeem your time, pursue purity, and stand for truth in today’s culture. From reacting to a thought-provoking exchange between Joe Rogan and James Talarico to addressing dating, distractions, abortion, and identity, this conversation offers bold biblical clarity and practical wisdom for living a life that reflects Christ.   👍 Like, Comment, & Subscribe for more life-changing podcasts! 🔔 Turn on notifications so you never miss an update!     📝 SHOW NOTES Subscribe now to receive the show notes directly in your inbox with each new episode. These notes are filled with key insights and scripture to help you reflect and grow deeper in your faith – https://lakepointe.church/shownotes    👇 DON’T MISS OUT! Start building habits that last! Click the link to get more info on Rooted. https://lakepointe.church/rooted/ Relationships matter. Click the link for life-changing resources for your marriage and relationships! https://lakepointe.church/marriage/   ⛪ ABOUT LAKEPOINTE CHURCH:We believe that Lakepointe is a movement for all people to Know God, Find Freedom, Discover their Calling, and Make a Difference. With 6 DFW locations and programs for all ages, there's something for everyone.  🤝 Support this ministry and help us reach more people with the Gospel: https://lakepointe.church/give    STAY CONNECTED:🌐 Website: https://lakepointe.church/👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lpconnect/📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lpconnect 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lakepointechurch   🎧 LISTEN ON THE GO! ▶️ Live Free on Spotify / https://open.spotify.com/show/353ryGdZNlebaiqkCcy3Yc▶️ Live Free on Apple Podcasts / https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/live-free-with-josh-howerton/id1669321198

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the Word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ.

Thanks for tuning in. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. This is Episode 34, by the way. My name is Carlos, and I'm here with Pastor Josh. By the way, I was going to say, my name is Carlos and a service pastor of the General Ministries.

This is my church online script. It almost came out. I do that on Saturday. I'll walk out for the Saturday night service and be like, good morning, everybody. I'm here with Patrick Josh Howardson and Pastor Paul Cunningham. And I'm here with Carlos Sarazzo who has never seen the movie of Braveheart. Ever. I have never seen that movie.

Or Tombstone. Or saving Private Ryan as well. Well, he's El Salvadorian. It's a little less. Right? We just saved the world. Man, thank you. Thank you so much for sending me.

So Pastor Josh yesterday texted me a full list of movies that I need to watch like ASAP. We call this Disciples show. That's right. Like, we gave me a past and never seeing Mary Poppins, but these others, a little bit, a little bit different when we get to these other movies. Oh, man. I'm like, I've never heard of these like old movies. No, I do.

There are, obviously, there's a couple things. You got to skip. Yeah. Just let me get that out there. Check your kids in mind website. That's what we do. Okay. But, bro, you for real.

You got to bring up a heart. Yeah. Yeah, we got Braveheart and some other ones. But anyways, it's going to be. I'll watch. Here's what's going to happen. Especially Tombstone, because Tombstone is the most quotable movie ever made,

when you watch Tombstone, you're going to be like, oh, that's why people say that. I've literally, I've literally never heard of Tombstone in my life. Like, I've heard of Braith.

What year did you move to the United States? 2010. I mean, we got movies in El Salvador. I will say that. You have movies? Like, we have movies. Yeah.

There's like six jokes I was going to make, but they would come across poorly. Well. Josh is like, wait, Josh is like, so you moved in 2010, so you discovered Hollywood and movies. No,

we went to the movies growing up, but I did miss those. I, okay, like I said, when you watch Tombstone, it's like a dictionary of the most quotable.

I'm excited. Thank you. Yeah. I'm excited, man. Hey, we're going to have a very spicy episode today. I'm excited. People will be saying things like,

Jesus never spoke about homosexuality or abortion, so we can't really say those issues are non-negotiables to be a Christian, right? Are Christians anti-gay and anti-abortion? Is it true that there is no historical, biblical, theological basis for Christians to oppose homosexual and abortion, does the Old Testament actually prescribe ways to perform abortions? Now, Carlos, where would you have gotten these? We can tease where we're going in the back half of the episode because I'll just give a heads up for listeners. More than anything since we started this podcast 35 weeks ago, there was a clip that went like mega viral from a quote unquote pastor who actually pastors in the synagogue of Satan that was on Joe Rogan making these arguments more than anything in 35 weeks, the largest number of people sent me the clip.

And they were like, hey, what do you think about this? So we noticed it was like super confusing for actual Bible believing Christians and we're going to shred this thing. I think that's a good podcast. I was going to say probably more than any other video, it fired me up. Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, I just did something to tell me like, we got to come at it hard. Yeah. It's going to be a good episode, man. Hey, thanks for liking, subscribing to our YouTube channel as well, commenting, sharing. And by the way, shout out to everybody that's already downloaded the show notes.

Did you know, Josh, that we have, for every episode of the Live Free podcast, we actually put together something called the show notes. Did you know that? Well, I've never heard this before. Will you please tell me about that? Well, over 1,500 people have already downloaded them and subscribed. And it's basically our all in one deeper dive recap of everything we discuss in this podcast episode.

So all the wisdom gold nuggets, key takeaways, biblical verses book recommendations and additional resources as well, plus discussion questions as well. And so because this is called the Live Free Podcasts, not the Think Free Podcast. Live Free, not Learn Free. That's right. We believe in applying what we do here. And so my favorite thing is for people to grab the show notes and then take into their groups and then basically like continue the conversation. Go even deeper. And so this is, we believe it, that discipleship happens in community.

And so to download the show notes, go to lakepoint. That church slash show notes. Or you can text the word notes to 2041. I didn't know that. I'm going to do that right now. You can do it right now. And as of the recording of this video, that's probably not going to work. But we will be working once the video goes like.

All right, get it out. And so, man, shout it as well. Man, somebody, people keep sharing about their groups that are coming together. That's been really cool. Shouted to Alex V96 on YouTube. This person says, our group meets at Rosa's Cafe in Rockwell Saturday mornings, a bunch of us broken men looking for fellowship and God's wisdom. That's awesome.

So that's what people are doing. They're listening to sermon. then they'll listen to the deeper. Live free. And then they're reading their Bibles and getting together and going, okay, what's God doing your life? We love seeing that. So by the way, by popular requests, we are, we asked about this in a previous episode, and we actually are working on vertically aligning sermon,

podcast, Bible reading plan, sermon series, and life group options. So we actually might be developing an app to help people do that in a seamless way. So it would be awesome. That's great. for that. Hey, hey, hey, hey, live free brother. Listen, man, we have to be a young millennial, please. This is crazy. So first of all, this is the first episode that we have had since the passing of the great Hulk Hogan. So Paul Cunningham was with me. We were on executive team retreat

planning the 2026 calendar and strategic objectives. Will you guys throw the, no, no, the other one. All right. So this is no joke, dude. This is, this was crazy. And it's like, Like, it's like, I can't believe this. It's one of those things I can't believe that happened. So we were sitting around, a bunch of dudes around a fire pit. We were talking about live free. And then somebody says, live free, brother. And it fires the idea where everybody thinks Hulk Hogan.

Do you even know who Hulk Hogan is? I've seen him before. I've seen it before. He's a wrestler, right? What I love is like between the movies and Hulk Hogan. You're just getting, it's such an education. We're getting out today. That's what I'm saying.

I'm here to learn. So Hulk Hogan was like a significant part of my childhood. He's the real American hero. You can't understand 1990s American childhood without Hulk Hogan. You can't. Wrestler? Yes. The wrestler.

So I post, we're all making this joke around the fire pit. So this is before any of the events that transpired with us. So somebody, I think it was Nathan Ironside, we make the joke, live free brother, we start doing it a Hulk Hoke. and voice because we're just being dudes. And so then somebody creates this on Chad GBT. So then I posted on Instagram. I kid you not, within I think it was four hours,

Hulk Hogan tragically passed to go be with Jesus. So then here's what happened to me, unfortunate series of events. All these people, they wake up and they see that I posted that. They don't know the series of events and then as a coincidence, I've never posted about Hulk Hogan before in my entire life. So then people think I'm making a joke about the death of Hulk Hogan. Yeah.

So then they're sending me these things like poorly timed pastor. You like these messages. So then I pull it down. But then we were all honestly, we were like, one, a lot of people don't know two years ago, Hulk Hogan and I think his wife gave their lives to Jesus. Really cool thing. I should have brought it up. Hulk Hogan's pastor wrote this amazing.

tribute about what he was like as a church member behind the scenes. Dude, and there's like a little church just showed up faithfully with his Bible, taking notes on the sermon, served in little volunteer ministries in the church. That would be amazing. And just about his faith and all that stuff. So anyway, it's not a joke, but we were like, you know what, that's what a wonderful tribute to Hulk Hogan because it, you know, Jesus, he said, the Bible says it is for freedom you have been set free.

And today, Hulk Hogan's hugging Jesus. and he is living free brother. So tribute to the great Hulk Hogan. Do the other one that I just like that one. Live free brother. We were trying to maybe talk one of our other staff members into getting a tattoo of it. I said that I would pay for half of it.

Yes, yes. We'll see if he does it. Part of my ignorance is that a phrase that he would say? So Hulk Hogan would say he would add brother. Brother. Live free brother. No, no, we just, he would just add brother onto the end of anything. Got it.

And what also is catch for him for him, say your prayers and eat your vitamins. Was that him as well? He did it. Eat your vitamins and say your prayers. That's it. That's it. I love it.

That's great. Bro, you need to go to YouTube and just like YouTube search like Hulk Hogan highlights and just get a taste of 1990s Americana. Body slamming Andre the Giant. You can like Google that when. I've heard of him. Many people say this. I'm not a wrestling guy,

but many people say that's the greatest moment in wrestling history. Interesting. I'll add it to my list. Thank you very much. Do you guys talk about the Bible now? Yes, but before. Hey, man. Before we go there, we just wrapped week four of At the Movies.

I hope you brought your Kleenex for that one. Yes. And bro, we just want to celebrate every single opportunity that people had to give their life to Jesus and cross that line of faith. We have a number as of the recording of this video, I want to let you share it. So we have not gotten the week four, seven. salvation over sin. But through the first three weeks of at the movies, over 1,500 people indicated a first-time decision to follow Christ. Man. It's so good. They're joining you right now

on the little podcast. So hey, welcome to the family. And praise the Lord. Welcome to Team Jesus. Let's go, man. All right, you ready to dive in? Let's do it, man. All right, man. Hey, Ephesians Chapter 5. It talks about making the best use of your time. Obviously, this is something that you mentioned in the sermon. So this, by the way, the movie that we do not preach, movies. We use movies to illustrate Biblical Truths. The movie that we used for the illustration this week was the movie About Time. By the way, great movie, but I did give a disclaimer. Jan and I saw the TBS version, the made for TV version, and then I was like, that was amazing. We should do it for had the movies. So then we did it. And then one of, actually, I think,

I think it was somebody in here. Was he, Brooke, Carlos, Chelsea? Somebody did it. Wait, you're not Carlos. You're Carlos. Somebody told me like, hey man, there's nudity in the movie. We did not know that because we did not see that version. So heads up to the parents, that's not one you want to go rent with your little kids. But anyway, if you see the edited version like we saw, good movie. Yes. About time.

About time. Time travel. I'm a fan of time travel movies. That's something of you already. Back to the Future. Best, best. You know, about time's like good, but, you know, best, back to the future. And then like, Tombstone.

Braveheart. Like, way, way, way, way. He's redeeming himself a little bit. I was a little nervous when if you didn't, I didn't seem back to the future. So like, all right, back, we're doing yourself. Yeah, anyways, okay. Okay, well, uh, hey, man, let's, let's go there. I say, I think, you know, when it comes to speaking about how to use your time, like literally

Ephesians chapter 5 verse 15, it literally says, it's a Bible command. Make the best use of your time. So as Christians, how can we biblically discern what is worth our time and what is it? Well, first of all, like an anchor phrase for us is a disciple, stewards, all that he has. or a disciple stewards all that she has. So the main idea is that you are not your own, you are bought with a price, therefore glorify God with your bodies.

And that includes what you do with your bodies, which means that means stewarding your time. That's why Ephesians talks about, make the best use of your time. So we have been entrusted with one life, and the purpose of our life is the glory of God and the good of people. So what God has done for us is going, hey man, I've given you this.

Your job is to steward it for Max Kingdom return on investment. So there's your, there's your principal. I got a million thoughts here. Let me just, I'll start with an anchor thing and we can start riffing on this. So one of my favorite, and this is, this is huge for me, probably just like everybody that listens, I am busy. I've got, you know, my, I have a full capital F full-time job. I got three little kids. I thought you only worked on Sundays because you're a pastor, right? Yeah, I've heard that before. And Saturday nights too. What do you do the rest of the week? You work one day a week, right? Like, oh my God. gosh. Make a fist, punch yourself in the face. So, you know, this is a big, this is a big deal for me.

So here's, here's an anchor passage for me. This is 1st Corinthians 3. Now, this passage, Paul's talking about what is going to happen at the end of time. Actually, we're preaching on this later this year. We're doing a sermon series called run to win. This is all about end times, return of Christ, and how you live for that moment. So this is what he says. By the grace God, has given me, I laid a foundation. So this is Paul, he's going to talk about how he decided what he spent time on. I laid a foundation as a wise builder and someone else is building on it. He's talking about I started these churches and now I appointed other pastors to build these churches. But each one should build with care. Now he's getting into, okay, how do you spend your time? For no one can lay

any foundation other than the one that's already laid, which is Jesus Christ. You go back to the sermon on the mount, builds your house on the rock, Jesus is the rock. If anyone builds on, this is it, if anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, their work will be shown for what it is. So when Jesus returns, everything that we did with our life, built with our life, accomplished with our life, he's saying that's going to be revealed. You might not be able to tell right now if it's going to stand the test of eternity. But when he returns, everything's going to get revealed. That's what it's saying.

Because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire. And the fire will test the quality of each person's work. And that's not just pastors. That's every disciple of Jesus Christ. What work did you do with your life? If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss, but yet will be saved, even though only as one escaping through the flames. I'm really going to preach a whole sermon that passage later. What it's saying is, so here's a little mental framework, and then let's start riffing on this together.

Is it saying everything that we do with our time, accomplish or build, it will pass through a fire when Jesus returns. And if we lived for and built things that will not last into eternity, all gone. Yeah. All gone.

but if we lived for and built things that will last forever, they'll pass through the fire. His point is, gold, silver, and costly stones, they can pass through fire. Wood, hay, and stubble can't. So if we live for stuff that will matter in eternity, actually, you kind of do get a take it with you in eternal rewards. So for me, what I want to do with my life is reverse engineer my time allocation and decision making from what are the things that will matter in eternity. And I'll just give a little hint.

The only thing that lasts forever are the souls of people. That's what lasts forever. So then we reverse engineer our decision making from there. Now, I got a lot of other thoughts, but let's keep you on. What do you all got? You know, I really have two choices. I can live for me and my story. And in the grand scheme of things, it's like a little YouTube clip that maybe has three views

and two of them are by my mom, you know, kind of a thing. Or I can live for the capital S story, God story, which is now and goes on for forever. And so the question of my life is, am I going to live for me, or am I going to plug my lowercase S story into God's capital S story and live for what matters most

and will live for eternity. The cool thing, though, in Corinthians, is that when people hear stuff like that, they think, oh, I've got to go do this big thing for God and that big thing for God. And sure, if you're called to do that. But in Corinthians, it says whether you eat or you drink, do it all for the glory of God.

So one thing you have to remember when we talk about taking our stories and plug them into God's story and what he's doing for things that are eternal, is that includes all the small things of your day. Every little thing of your day can be done for God, which to me actually makes it beautiful. It makes everything I do every day

can be lived for what matters most. It's interesting because Paul writes this in Efficiency, chapter 5, and a lot of people might not know this, but Paul is in prison writing this letter. And so if anybody had an excuse to just kind of stay put would be Paul because he's like, well, I'm in prison doing the Lord's work, and this is where I am.

And he's literally writing the Bible telling us, hey, make the best use of your time for the kingdom of God. It's also interesting, the word time. There's two popular works for time in the Bible. One of them would be chronos, which literally just means minutes, times it's literal time. And then the other one would be chiros. The word for time when Paul says, make the best use of your time is, Cairo's is a God-appointed moment.

And so what Paul is saying, like, in this very moment, God puts you here for a purpose more bigger than yourself, bigger than yourself. And so are you leveraging it for the glory of God and for the good of other people? Or are you wasting it? That's right. So it's like, this is, keeping an eternal perspective is like, that's the key. If you get that, everything else starts making sense. So this, I'll mention this every now and then.

And I think when I mention it, some people think, bro, that's macabre. Like, that's dark. It's not, it's actually this thing is why I do it. Sometimes, like, if I get in a spot where it's like, it's a dry, sees him, my heart just feels asleep to the things of God. Janet, I'll go, I'll go find a graveyard and I'll walk the graveyard. And I've always done that. I've done that for over 10 years.

And the reason is, is this. It puts eternity in my heart. It reminds me, I'm going to die. My kids are going to die. Every person that I ever preach the Bible to, they're going to die. And so I better live for this day in light of that day. It's the, some people have noticed before, if you, if you watch real close, there's a, right before the, the lights come on and the cameras start and I start preaching. It's always, you know, fix my Bible. I check my fly. Just to make sure. And then, well, I have a little bit of paranoia sometimes. Just when I, like, did I do that? That's why I do it. There you go. But then, um, I whisper there's an old, I bet you know it, Cunningham. There's an old quote from Richard. Baxter who is a Puritan pastor, and it's the best preaching quote, I think this ever. He said,

I preached as never sure to preach again as a dying man to dying man. And I just look out and I remind myself, every single one of these people is going to be dead in a hundred years. And it's my job to prepare them for that moment. I've been riffing on an idea in the back of my mind. One day I would love to rot on it. Basically, just trying to narrow it down, hey, what are the 10 most important days of your life? I've got a few. That's a sermon series. We can work on it. Because I Like even because what I would love to do in it is that a few of those days actually happened before you ever were born. Day of Christ's death, his resurrection, things like that. But one of those days is, hey, the day we're going to die.

And that's connected to, like, if I had a life first, it would probably be Acts 1336, where David served the purposes of God in a generation and then he died. Like, that's it. It's like that is a great life. I serve God's purposes in my generation. I did what he put me on earth to do, and then I'd die and be with them forever. But going back to the idea of the day I die, you know, you talked earlier about reverse engineering it the day I die, I sometimes like to think, hey, what do I want the people at my funeral to have said about me?

And then I stopped and think, okay, if I kept doing everything I'm doing today, would those things be said? Because your life, my life is perfectly designed to give you the results you're experiencing and will experience. And so if I kept doing everything I'm doing today and those things wouldn't be said. I thought, okay, what changes need to be made? What things need to be taken out, put in, so on and so forth. So I do think about in terms of, hey, my legacy, what I want people to say. but then it's also really the ultimate thing is the Bible says it is pointed once for a person to die and then comes judgment. Now, if you're a believer in Jesus, you don't have to be afraid of eternal separation from him.

But there is this idea of commendation from the Lord. And I'm like, man, what do I want God to say? And I just well done good and faithful servant. That's definitely a bit of quite. But even just like looking back in my life, like, hey, Paul, when you did this, you maximize what I give you in this area in that area. And then basically we said, I then reverse engineer that. So yeah, so one of the most important days will be the day we die because of what will be set. about us and legacy, we live with people who go beyond us, but then also because of the God

that we're going to stand before. Amen. Man, that's good. And the truth is, we all have stuff that we tend to hold on to a little too much sometimes. And it's always good to ask yourself, man, like, God, would you show me what are those things in my life that I need to, that I need to recalibrate my focus to make sure that whatever I'm doing, I'm doing it for your glory, for the kingdom of God, not for my own kingdom. I think of the, I read this recently about the rich young ruler in the gospels. You know, this, for you. For you, this, for you. or the people that might not be familiar with this story, this is a rich young ruler who had the option

of holding on to his material wealth or following Jesus based on the invitation of Jesus. And again, we don't know his name. We just know that his identity is the rich. He was rich, he was young and he was a ruler. 2,000 years later today, if you think about it, he's no longer rich. He's no longer young.

He's no longer ruling anything. But that was his identity. And again, he chose to hang on to something that was just was not going to last. and he missed the opportunity of following Jesus towards eternity into an abundant life. Again, it just reminds me, and you mentioned a quote in your sermon, C.T. Stud.

Great name. Yeah, he's such a stud. Great name. Exactly. He said something about like, hey, only one life, twill soon be past only what's done for Christ. Well, as Jonathan Edwards actually said, Lord stamp eternity on my eyeballs.

It's this idea of, man, I just want to have your kingdom on my mind, on my eyes. That quote is, I've got a poster of it above the table in my office where I write all my sermons. Only one life, to will soon be passed. Only what's done for Christ will ask. That's a great one. How do you? Yeah, you don't get practical? Let's get practical. There's a few things I got here because like, yeah, I got a lot. There's a lot of, the Bible has a lot to say about this. And for anybody, this is a big deal. I actually heard Rick Warren one time say in a sermon, and hell for me would be God revealing to me everything I could have accomplished if I had lived

my faith. And yeah, it's like, you know, I do think about that. Like being shown what my life and my lineage and my household and Lake Point Church could have been if I had lived every day in light of that day, I do not want to be disappointed when I am shown that. So I'll say a few things. There's like, obviously, there's some obvious little hanging fruit. one is we are specifically commanded to make the best use of the time which means not wasting time.

So like I'll just say this like nobody's better at this than Jana. I just, I'm constantly, it's like they always, I'll have a reason I need to re-download them and then I delete them. But just like time wasting at like the number of hours that the average person spends scrolling X or TikTok or social. It's like 18 hours a week. I looked it up. What is it? Well, it's actually, it's more than that. It's like six to seven hours a day for Gen Z.

Extrapolated over a lifetime. So listen, extrapolated over a lifetime. No, wait. Is this on social media or is this like on your phone? On your phone. Just on your phone. Six to seven hours. So for Gen Z and, you know, other generations are slightly lower, but still a lot.

For Gen Z, that means that over the course of their life, they'll spend between 19 and 22 years on their phone. This is why this podcast is going to be on their phone. Yeah, if you listen to this on your phone, it is kind of this, you know, weird, ironic moment. But, and what I say, it's not to say it's all bad. Because sometimes people work with their phone. So you got to factor that into the numbers. But so even if you half that, would you still want to say that you spent 10 years of your life on your phone? And then you start thinking like, what could you have accomplished if I had reallocated that time to building something that mattered?

I mean, you know, that's. It's been said that attention is a new currency today, especially from a, you know, marketing perspective. A few people ever wonder why platforms like TikTok or Facebook or Instagram, they're free. And people are like, you know, these are large corporations. Why are they free? Well, actually, people will think, well, we don't pay anything. Well, actually, you do pay something. Yes, exactly.

You pay with your, something's infinitely more valuable. That's your time and your attention. That's why all these companies just really literally want you to pay attention. Did you, what was that, what was the documentary on Netflix called about social media? Social dilemma? The social dilemma. Dude, there was a line in that. Jan and I watched it on a vacation.

We deleted like everything off our phones. A, this is a whole different podcast. A, do you remember at the end of that documentary, all the guys who created the social media platforms, they reveal that they pay tens of thousands of dollars every year to send their kids to schools where screens are not available because they know that their products were designed to create addictions? So like these guys won't let their kids use the products they created

and pay thousands of dollars to get their kids away from the product. because they know what it does. So that's one, two, I heard it was got, Mark Drusel said this years ago and it like, I never forgot it. I was a young man and I listened to a sermon

he did on men and work. And he made, this is all he said. And every, especially young men, need to know this. It's applicable for everybody. But he said, the marketplace is a competition.

You will have to outwork other men to succeed. I just want to let that sit. Like that, for every young man needs to internalize. that. The marketplace is a competition. You will have to outwork other men to succeed. So if you're going, hey, dude, if you're spending six hours a day over here, dude, you're going to lose that competition. But what you'll notice over time in life is that the people who succeed, that prosper, like they get really good at, let's go back to this, making the best use of their time.

They wake up every day. They're good at prioritizing things. It's like they got that thing in them that's like, I'm going to wake up today, kill something, drag it home. And they just go do it. They execute. They make the best use of their time. So let me just riff a couple things like practically on this. One is don't waste time. We all know that.

Number two, I would say this is the concept of notice in the life of Jesus and the Apostle Paul the radical focus they have. It's insane. Like next time you read the epistles and the gospels, think through the lens of their ability to say no to the things that were not their primary mission. It's crazy. That's good. It's like, I'll actually give any, this was literally my Bible reading this morning was Mark 4 and 5. I had never noticed this before, but we were prepping for this podcast. I noticed it. So right after Jesus heals the garrisoned demoniac, the legion, all the demons in him, I'd never notice this. Verse 18 says, as he, Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed with demons

begged him that he might be with him and he did not permit him. He tells him to go home. Then in the very next chapter, you'll see this Jesus heals the woman with the issue of blood and Jowris daughter. And then it's verse 37. And he allowed no one to follow him into the room where he does this except Peter James and John. So what's really interesting is Jesus fiercely guards his relational outputs. He's like, man, I love you all. But I have to say no to all these relationships so that I can say yes to the things that matter the most. If you notice the Apostle Paul, we're going to preach this in 2026. We're going to a little reveal here.

We're going to, the last eight sermons of the There is More series through Acts, I'm riffing off the Avengers movie title. We're just going to call it, There is More, end game. That's going to be awesome. I'm going to like it. Because the last eight chapters are Paul setting his face towards Rome. and it's his endgame. He's like, I'm willing to trade my life if I can get the gospel to overtake Rome

and I'm willing to make that trade. Wow. The whole last eight chapters are him going, and he just fiercely says no to everything else. Nope, I'm going to Rome. I'm going to Rome. You know, I keep up peeling up. So you see that over and over and over again.

You see this in the life of Nehemiah. Remember, I think it's Nehemiah three. You got these two dudes, Sanballot and Tobiah, who are like, they're trying to distract him. Oh, by the way, the devil doesn't have to destroy you if he can distract you. So, like, just heads up. If he can just get you doing stuff that doesn't matter in eternity, he's fine with you.

So that's what he sends, Sambo and Tobiah, to be like, hey, we have these accusations and, you know, did you get your permit and your code for this, General Contractor, Nehemiah? And he essentially goes, here's what he says, I'm going to quote him, I am doing a great work and I cannot come down. And like every man of God and woman of God that has a mission in their life, they're doing something that matters in eternity, you have to have that in you. Hey, dude, I got a million opportunities. I'm doing a great work and I cannot come down right now.

So it's like you can't get distracted on these things. So I would say that. And then last thing, if I'm going to get really practical, so like this may sound a little weird. So I'll talk about pastor world. I'll peek behind the curtain into the weird world of pastors. So like I watch this. I coach a lot of younger pastors.

And I watch this happen to pastors. The guys who build the best ministries, they are not always the ones who are the most gifted or the smartest or the most educated. So here's what happens. Is it every size, this is a little weird pastor world thing, and basically every size phase of your church, this whole new set of distractions becomes available to you. And it's who are the guys who can say no to the distractions that build the best churches and the greatest ministries?

So for our listeners, I'm going to, I'll give you. the pastor world example, but you need to think about mom world or manager world or I own a business world. So like what happens to pastors is your church starts growing and then all of a sudden people want you to speak at youth camps. That's the first thing. So it's like, you know, I got, I did a billion youth camps before I became a pastor. And then if you're a decent speaker, people are like, come over here and do my camp. Was like, I developed the ability to go, man, I could go over there an extra of whatever, $1,500 this week. But I'm doing a great thing and I kind of come down. I got a church a bill. Then you get a church gets a little bigger and then people want you to

speak at their churches. It's like big churches want you to come speak at their churches. And I just, you know, and you can make a little extra money and you can build your platform or whatever. But I was just like to this day, I would estimate I say no to over 95% of speaking opportunities. I don't speak at conferences. I don't speak at other churches unless it's like a good buddy or I got a very very specific reason. I say to all that stuff. And then it's like, you know, Paul knows this. Man, you know, and I say it's, you know, humility, but just because of what God's done at Lake Point, like book publishers are, have asked me a million times. Like, you would you write this? But we would love to. Would you consider a contract? And at least to this

point in my life, the answer to every, everything is, could I make, you know, sometimes honestly significant extra money? I'm like, yeah, honestly, no, man. I can't because I am called to build Lake Point Church. And if it does not serve the people of Lake Point, I'm really not interested because I'm doing a great thing and I cannot come down. And we were chatting about it even, I think last week and it was Lake Point and it was family. It's like at the end of the day, you would have to cheat time either from the church or from your family. And at this season of your life, you're like, hey, I can't afford that time. It doesn't mean you won't put your name on it one day. But today, the greatest investment you were

talking to me last night. I mean, last week, I should say, was in your family and the church. And you've said this, but I've seen that too. Josh, just working with you, man, you know, getting to see just a little bit more of what you do and some of the personal invitations that you get. I've seen you say no, no, no. And I've seen you intentionally set those things aside because you're like, man, I got a church to lead. I got a church to pastor and I got a family to love. And so, man, I've seen that. And so, man, I can testify to that.

We did. And I'm going to give a mentor of mine a shout, Larry Osborne. You know Larry, Paul? I don't know him personally, but he has mentored me from me. afar just to listening and reading. We call them in the minister world, we call him Larry Legend, like Larry Bird. Do you know Larry Bird?

I do know Larry Bird. I'm, I'm an everything bad. He's insane in private private. You can ask me. Is that in two-sword? I'm a kind of NBA, yes. Larry Bird, greatest. Magic and Bird, let's go.

Greatest Trash Talker in the history of NBA. I have a Larry Bird rookie card. No, you do not. Yes, PSA grade at 8. It's a good one. It's a good one. Nice. Anyway, how do we, oh, Larry Legend.

Larry Bird, sorry, Larry Osborne, who was a pastor in California, built a great 10,000-person church, super healthy church in NoCal, Northern Cal. Larry Osborne had a book that he wrote when he was young that went like nuts. I think it was called Sticky Church, or was it Sticky Teams? Maybe in Sticky Teams. I can't remember, though. I think it made it. And it went crazy. And then when he got home, his kids.

were still in the house and one of his kids just let him know like man dad when you write a book like we don't see you much and at the height of his uh authorship you know popularity he sat his kids down and he said until you guys are out of the house i'm not writing another book wow and he just because however much money i could make over here time with you is worth more than that to me and honestly larry's a like in some ways has disciples me and i just did that with the kids you know i did two years ago i spoke at thing and you know I got a they were super generous and I literally when I got home Janet told me it had been a little tough you know you know kids and I I sat the kids down I literally showed them the check and you know for a little kid to see you know

where it was $3,000 whatever it was I don't know how much it was that's when you're a little kid you're like holy Moses like that's amazing and I told the kids two years ago, I will say no to virtually every speaking opportunity until you guys are out of the house because one evening with you is worth more than $3,000 to me. And they have not forgotten that. So it's just it's the ability to say no to secondary things so that we can stay focused on primary things that are going to matter in eternity. Acts chapter 20 verse 24. This is one of my favorite verses. Paul says, however, I consider my life worth nothing to me. My only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus.

It's giving me the task of testifying to the good news of God's grace. Paul is saying, man, I got one aim. Everything else is secondary. It doesn't matter. Man, let's talk about how to, for somebody that's here, you're talking about habits and rhythms and disciplines. Honestly, we're excited because we're getting ready to launch like a big thing in our church called Rooted. And Rooted is a 10-week discipleship experience world. You know what it is? I thought about this.

Rooted his boot camp. There you go. Rooted is boot camp for every disciple. It's, hey man, welcome to team Jesus. This is what it means to grow in a relationship with Jesus in a deep way. We want to help you become the disciple you have been called to be who understands what your rhythms are for life, not just for some obscure discipline, spiritual. This is literally like your daily, weekly rhythms in community. And so every single week for Ruta, you basically go through a specific discipline, prayer, community, generosity, repentance, and more.

And so we're going to, this is a big thing for us. By the way, one of the weeks is on stewarding your life. So it's like, it specifically hits this. So if somebody's joining right now and they're like, man, I'm not part of a group yet. This is literally designed for you. We want to help you. And so if that's you, text the word, Ruted to 20411. on and we're going to send you all the information to get you plugged in.

And so, yeah, man, it's going to be great. All right, let me say, like, I should have said, we've elongated this and we need to shred the Joe Rogan clip. But I do want to, so what I would say for guys, especially, but for, for, it's really for everybody to get real practical and put a bow on this on stewarding your time. Number one, set your priorities. Like, you need to pre-decide your priorities and then, you know, they need to be in alignment with the Word of God.

So, hey, my primary priority is I'm on Team Jesus. Jesus is my Lord. Number two, now my job is my family. And then number three is my call, you know, my vocation, my calling. So set your priorities. My dad taught me growing up. Children live by feelings, adults live by commitments. If you don't pre-decide, then you're really, your only input data is how do I feel in the moment? But if you set your priorities and you know what your priorities are, all of a sudden you have an evaluation grid by which yes to this, no to that. Bro, that is so good. Say it one more time. Because honestly, like it's so necessary. Say it one more time. Set your priorities.

the live feelings versus children live by feelings adults live by commitments that's good so if you don't pre-decide what your commitments are and your priorities then you're again your stimuli is just how you feel in the moment I got to pre-decide what my priorities are

I would say this I'm a you know I'm 42 I got three young kids I got 14 10 6 I would say to because guys women have different little hangups what I see a lot of guys do they get hijacked here is their life gets overtaken with hobbies. And I'll be honest, man, I'll look at some young dads and I'm like, bro, what are you doing? Like, so, you know, when I'm discipling guys, I'll tell them you get one hobby, one,

and it's expendable. You get one. So like, I played a ton of golf in high school, a ton, and I like to golf. I have not played more than one round of golf per year since we had kids. And I'm not saying everybody's got to do that. You might be able to find a way to do that and not, you know, punt on your other priority. But for me, that's, you know, that's, that's it. So you get one hobby and it's expendable. And go ahead, Paul. Doesn't it practical hack on that as your kids go to older, then bring your kids into your hobby if they'll accept it. So like, for me, like I like to hunt, and but that's a lot of time away. And so when my son got enough, I started bringing him. And actually it's great because then I get so much quality time that we actually dive into

things that just the little conversations the car may never happen. So as they get old enough, And if they actually like it too, don't try to force it down their throat. Bring them into your hobbies because then, yeah, it's the best thing. That's great, man. Hey, this week's about the movie that we watched this week is about romance. And so I want to make sure we hit this very briefly because we're going to get to that Joe Rogan clip. Yeah. About what?

The Joe Rogan clip? No, no. You said this is about what? Romans? Oh, oh, you're right. Romance. Not romance. You're right.

Sorry. Let me stretch my mind. I was like, I'm not prepared for this. Yeah, man. That's right. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate your help. I seriously was like, dang it. It's the accent that helps you. It thinks that you need to figure out how to pronounce words well. He's thinking in Pearl Harbor, not saying Private Ryan. There you go. Yeah.

This week's movie is about romance. Thank you, Josh. Wait, I want you to say it one more time. That's awesome. Romance? Yeah. Let me just say you're way. I said romance before. You're right. I see it. Hey, let me just say you're way better at saying English words than I am at saying Spanish words. So you, you need to be laughing at me and Paul. No, I say this to people all the time. I'm not even kidding. I'm still learning how to speak English. People think I'm kidding. I'm genuinely.

You can't even tell the English is your second language. I'm a learner. I'm okay with always learning new words and how to pronounce. You just help me right now. And I'm not even kidding. Romance is when I immediately heard you say it. Well, for the public record, I was not making fun of your pronunciation. You're okay.

I was afraid I didn't prepare for the discussion on Romans. I was like, I don't have any of my notes. You're fine, man. Well, on that note, marriage is actually, if you look at culture right now, you can literally like look up these statistics. It's on an all-time low in this new generation, especially with the younger generation, especially with younger men. And so less people are getting married.

The new generation of especially men, they honestly, they don't know how to do it. Like they're like, well, we love to get a girlfriend. We love to do the whole relationship and marriage thing at some point. We just have no idea. So we're just going to help out our single folks. here, especially men, very briefly, man, rapid fire best biblical dating tips on how to do it. Let's, so we are going to, this is going to be rapid fire because heads up, my plan is during the Love Life series through Song of Solomon to do like an episode of the pod that's like a deep dive on

dating. We may do it as like a bonus app just because our young adults need help, you know. So let's rapid fire. deep dive during Love Life. So a couple things. First, let me just say, great question, smart question, because the book of Proverbs, which is, by the way, a book just written from a dad to his son. That's really all the book of Proverbs is, is a dad disciple in his son. I love that. And he tells his son, he's like, hey, man, whoever finds a wife finds a good thing, and a good wife is more precious than rubies. It's like, man, if you find a good wife, you found something way better than if you

walked out in a field and there was a diamond back there. Like, so, it's a big deal. So Bob Russell, pastor that meant, another pastor that mentored me. Is he a basketball player too, but Russell? No. Bill Russell. Oh, Bill Russell. Bill Russell. This is great. Bill Russell. Bill Russell, I think, won 11 championships with the Celtics. I think he has the most championships of any NBA player.

I like that. There you go. This is a really interesting podcast. Bill, Bill Russell. Bob Russell, when I was 18 years old, and I just got with him to ask a bunch of questions about being a pastor. And at the end of the time, I was like, man, is there anything that I need to know at age 18 that you haven't told me yet? And he said, Josh, what will most determine the outcome of your ministry is not what first church you take or what seminary you choose. It would be what wife you marry. He was 100% right.

So number one, I would just say, if somebody is asking the question, how do I date in such a way that I acquire, and I'll just, that's a word I'll use, that I acquire a good spouse, you're asking what might be the most important human side question of your entire life. Good job. Let me rapid fire a couple quick things. And then y'all jump in. Number one, obviously you have the do not be unequally oak verse. Yes, that means no Christian should ever date a non-Christian. full stop, period. We don't do evangel dating at Lake Point. That is a terrible idea. But what I also think it means, a yoke was like a wooden thing that put two animals together. So it's not just about direction,

it's also about pace. So what I would say is just start running towards Jesus and the type of life that you want to live and then just look around and who's running in the same direction at the same speed as me and then marry one of those. That's good, man.

Number two, I think one of the most underrated Bible verses on dating is Proverbs 27-7. It says, the one who is full loathes honey from the comb, but to the one who is hungry, even what is bitter tastes sweet. What that means is that when your appetite goes up, your standards go down. My little joke is like,

that's why you never go shopping, grocery shop, when you're hungry. That's when the sushi-flavored Oreos start looking good. It's like, you're real hungry. You're like, oh, that sounds interesting. Appetite goes up, standards go down. So here's a big idea is you need to be really satisfied in Jesus. And then when your soul is full, you can move out with high standards.

And you won't settle for Mr. Wright. You settle for Mr. Right now and miss out a Mr. Wright. The other thing I would say, let's give another Bible verse. And we're going to preach this in the next series. The Song of Solomon, 516, it says, is my lover, this is my friend. That's the song of Solomon's definition of marriage. So what I would say is when you're dating, here's what you're really doing. A, you're going, is this a good Christian? Then you're going, is this a good friend? You're trying to develop a really good friendship.

You're not working on all the sex, romance, sexuality, passion stuff. That's marriage stuff. You're working on, man, is this a really good friend that I can have fun with? Talk to you about life. We can have fun doing nothing together. Work on building a good friendship. especially guys, because I do think because men are called to lead their marriages in humble, sacrificial, gentle Jesus loving ways, I think that wise people at the appropriate points in a dating relationship, like the man in that relationship, he's going to go ahead and start taking responsibility for some things if he's a godly man. What a godly man should be doing is he should be the one that should be taking responsibility.

responsibility for guarding the purity of the relationship. So if you're the guy, you should be the one that's like, hey man, we really like each other. And we actually have Bible verses like, it is better to marry than to burn with passion. Like the Bible is literally saying things like, you're going to want to do things with each other. You shouldn't do quite yet. And that's real normal. Actually, that's healthy that you want to do those things. That's healthy. Not healthy to do those things yet. So we need to wait until. Timing matters. Timing matters. So the guy should be the one that sits down in the relationship and he goes, hey, I like you, you like me.

There's probably stuff that, you know, we're humans. You should be setting boundaries because if you don't, I saw this in a lot of my college friends. If you don't do that, your job as a leader of the potential future relationship is to lead towards righteousness. And if you don't guard that and you do stuff that you shouldn't do when you're dating, you actually end up forfeiting the more. moral and spiritual authority to lead her later. And you're going to have, it's going to be hard to make up that ground. Like she doesn't trust you because you didn't, you didn't guard my body and you didn't guard our purity. So set the boundaries. I'd also, a couple other quick things. I'm going to use fishing analogies, fish in the right ponds. That's good. You know,

it's like, if, like, I'm not going to catch bass in a catfish pond. So what I'm saying is like, if you're a Christian person that's looking for a spouse and you're going to like bars and nightclubs and 30A, good luck. A little different than Lake Point. Yeah, than a church. That's not where you find godly spouses. So fish in the right ponds,

I would say this man, especially to our ladies. This can be true for men, but especially to our ladies. pastors get crushed for encouraging Christian women towards modesty, but that's like literally a Bible verse, and we're not scared of Bible verses. So what I would say to younger ladies is fishing analogy. If you fish with junk bait, you're going to catch junk fish. And what I'm saying is like, I'll just say it in kind of a blunt way.

Like what you, like the kind of, if you're looking for a godly guy that loves Jesus and he's going to build a godly happy family. By the way, that's what you want. That kind of guy is not looking for cleavage in a thigh gap. That's not his top priority is what I'm saying. Like, yes, we want to try to be attractive. That's great. But his top priority isn't a lot of cleavage in a thigh gap

or, you know, tight, whatever it is. So it's like, I'll just be honest. When I was in college, if when I saw girls dress like that, internally I was like not for me because I was going you know I want to be a pastor and I want to raise godly kids and daughters someday and I'm not sure that that she she's she'd be on the same page so fish with junk bait you can catch young fish uh and then last thing I'll say is um if you look for the Bible verses on how to find a great spouse you're you're not going to find any yeah if you look for Bible verses on how to become a great spouse, literally every verse the Bible is going to help you out.

So what the Bible is did, the energy of the Bible is towards this little sentence that a million pastors have said before is try to become the type of person that the type of person you're looking for is looking for. Try to become the type of person that the type of person you're looking for is looking for. I want to be attractive to the person I am trying to attract. There it is. That's great. That's really what I was going to say he didn't hit it,

was focus way more attention on becoming the right person instead of finding the right person. Sometimes when I've worked with single, especially guys, a lot of them would make a list of things looking for in a spouse. I'm like, man, that's awesome. And it is. By the way, it's a good practice as long as those are biblically done. But then I say, hey, if I gave that list and I

gave it to your future spouse, would they find you? And if the answer is no, then okay, work on those things and start getting to work on them. And so, yeah, focus far more attention on becoming the right person than just simply trying to find the right person. That's great. I would say for me, I mean, some people will think this is cliche. But pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, just don't stop praying. I don't know why. When I was in middle school, I just started praying for my future wife.

I don't know why. I generally have no idea why. Looking back, I'm like, why would I be doing that? No, I don't know. But I've been praying for my wife since literally, since I was a kid. And when I was in college, I was in Michigan in college, sophomore year, I'm literally, my prayer became, God, I do not want to graduate my university without meeting my future wife. And literally, that's what I prayed for. Looking back, by the grace of God, I've been married for 11 years now, almost.

I don't think I'm that smart to be able to pick the woman that I, you know, I, you know, I. asked to marry me. I just, I don't think I have the talent. I don't know how I could have done it in my own capacity. All I see is God's grace to lead me in the right way with the right people to the right moment. And, and, you know, and so again, it's a, I look back and I just, I can't give prayer enough, you know, credit of like, man, God's grace, God's grace. I just begged God because I desperately, desperately needed help to find my future spouse because of what you said is true. It matters so much. That's right. Well, and dude, the Lord asked you your prayer. Brooke is. The Howerton family loves Ms. Brooke. She is a beautiful, wonderful, amazing. Well done.

God's grace. Well done, my friend. All right, man. We got a- Can I do one more thing? Please, go ahead. Can you guys put that dating manifesto up there? So this is, I got a pastor friend. Shout out Ashley Wildridge. He does this. He did this in a sermon for the students at his church. He did it years ago. I screenshot it. I screenshot. it and I'm going to teach my kids this when they get to that age. So I wouldn't, here's a little exercise to run if you're a, you know, maybe a high school or college, young adult and this your thing. So he just went, hey, four quadrants, fill out the quadrants. So he went, hey, top quadrant, what are your must haves? And by the way, things like character, love for the

Lord, love for the church, you know, purity of life should be there. Then second quadrant is nice to haves. You know, I don't know, man. Do you like blue eyes? I don't know. What's your thing? I don't know. Put your nice to haves there. Like, ah, I hope she's into music. I like me. I'm not a music guy, but, you know, whatever your thing is. Then down at the bottom, bottom left quadrant, physical boundaries. Now here's why this is really important. Jan and I did this when we were dating. We set like, hey, we will not be alone after this time. Or, you know, if we, go on a date, we will do, we will be here, we won't be here. We did all of our dating in public places, that kind of thing. We will never, you know, this is an obvious one. We will never stay the night

in the same place. By the way, dude, this whole thing. It's obvious to some people, not to other people. Exactly. Well, that's what I'm saying. We got a lot of people who are brand new Christians, you're like, is that wrong? I didn't know. It was wrong. Well, yeah, don't do that. That's like putting yourself in a, like, if you are a red-blooded male under the age of 70, that is staying alone with somebody that you're attracted to and dating, like at night, brought. What are you doing? Proverbs calls that putting the guy or the author,

it's a father to the son talks about that. And he says, can a man put burning coals under lap and not burn? And that be burned. Exactly. So just pre-decide what your physical boundaries are going to be and just write them down, write them down. And then the last quadrant,

and this is really, really, really wise. Write the names of three mature Christians to confirm your choice. So like, and I'll be transparent, there were, like, I dated, I dated a couple people that I had wise people in my life be like, hey dude, she's a Christian, yes, love Jesus, yes, but I see some things,

I think are not going to go well for you. Then Jana and I got, set up on a blind date from the guy that disciplined me and the guy that disciples her, my parents who are godly people, great marriage, they meet Jan and they're like, this one, this way. Amazing, amazing.

It's like, every friend I had was like, this girl is a mate. So it's like, but this is really wise. It's good. Because when emotions get high, logic gets low. So you get in, you're like super into this person

and you chuck every amount of, ounce of judgment you have just goes right out the window. So write the names of three mature Christians that could confirm your choice. There you go. Now we can. Amazing man. That's great. Great. Well, exercise to do. Well, let's jump in. We got a video. Trinity, would you help us prepare that video? And this is, for a little bit of context, this is a Joe Rogan interview with James Talarico. I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. And James is a, he is a American politician. Like you said, quote-unquote pastor, former teacher, and he is, what? Well, you describe me.

I object to the title, pastor. Pastor in the synagogue of Satan. That's right. That's what I'm saying. That's it. Self-proclaimed. And so, man, let's just jump in. So it's just, I get suspicious when anybody, whether it's a televangelist or a politician,

tells me that something is central to my faith when Jesus never talks about it. wait wait actually let him keep on so we know what he's saying jesus never talked about to me that should i think ring alarm bells um as to what is the agenda here um what is someone trying to to get across and i think if we're looking at the last 40 50 years the religious right has made a concerted effort to make homosexuality and abortion the two biggest issues for christians all so his first of all this here's why we're doing this. A, the number of people that sent this to me was insane. B, it confused a lot of people and it went like super mega viral. So this is the kind of stuff you're going to hear a lot.

So I just want to like walk through a biblical day. So Paul Cunningham, you start. This, James says Jesus never talked about homosexuality. Let's do homosexuality first because he's going to talk about abortion later. Yeah, I get suspicious to anyone, anytime someone uses the argument, Jesus never talked about fill in the blank. So my alarm bells start going off when I hear that because usually it just betrays to me that the person is generally intentionally or unintentionally ignorant of just how biblical arguments work, biblical reasoning works and things like that. And so I think when I hear things like this, I used to people three things we need to remember. Number one is Jesus' Bible. Number two, Jesus is identity.

And number three, Jesus' context. So in terms of Jesus' Bible, he affirmed the authority of the Old Testament. He said, I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. And so that basically says, hey, everything in the Old Testament. I affirm that in terms of God's moral commands. Then we have to remember his identity that Jesus was God. And so when he says, oh, Jesus never said that. I'm like, well, if it said it in the Old Testament, he is God, actually it is his words.

Now, it was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but we have to remember in Christian belief, God has one mind, not three. So it's not like the Holy Spirit and the Son of God or thinking different things. Oh, they're thinking the same thing. And so everything that the Holy Spirit inspired are Jesus's thoughts as well, including everything in the Old Testament. And then finally have to remember Jesus' context is Jesus never talked about things like idolatry either, even though idolatry was the number one sin in the Old Testament. And the reason is because that wasn't being debated. Jesus was around mostly Jewish people.

They weren't debating that and weren't practicing it anymore, so he didn't need to address it. But what you see in Acts and in the epistles is all of a sudden as the gospel goes out into the Gentile world, where things like idolatry and homosexuality and other things like that or practice, they do have to address it because they're in cultures that embrace it and where there is error. That's really good. Yeah. So again, so we have to remember Jesus' Bible, his identity, and his context. All right.

So here's what I'll say in response to that. Because you hear this a lot, Jesus never talk about same-sex attraction or marriage or whatever. So one thing I'll say is Jesus never said anything about nuclear warheads, bestiality or paper straws, but they're all awful too. Yeah. And I just got to throw paper straws in there because I really want them to go away. But like, you know, so that's number one. It's an argument from silence.

the weakest form of argument, argument from silence. There's tons of stuff Jesus never explicitly talked about that everyone knows are evil. Everybody knows that. Number two is this- Can I say something about? Yeah, please. And yet he did talk about sexuality. He did talk about marriage. Okay, okay, go ahead. Yeah, number two, that's just not true that Jesus never talked about this. So if, here's my analogy, if somebody were to ask me, hey, Josh, who, they walk in a lake point, they go, hey, Josh, who's your wife, which one's your wife? There's two ways that I can make clear who my wife is. Either I can point to 24,999 people and individually say, that's not my wife, and that's not my wife, and that's not my wife, until no one's love with Jana. Or I can just point to Jana and go, that's my wife, and by implication,

everything else is not my wife. Okay. So what Jesus does over and over again, multiple times in the Gospels, is he defines what is acceptable sexual expression, and what is biblical marriage. So instead of having to literally name, for instance, I mentioned this, Jesus never addresses beastiality or incest. Everyone knows those things are wrong. Only fans. Yeah, only, you know, we're talking about only fans.

So what Jesus did is he went, man, I'm not going to list every single thing that is wrong. That's impossible to take forever. So let me just go, here's what's right. And then by implication, everything else is out. So this is Matthew 19. Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked Jesus, is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?

Jesus' response. So words of Jesus right here, haven't you read, he replied, that at the beginning, the Creator made them male and female. So transgenderism is out and said, for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother. So, like, lazy, don't work, live in your mom's basement forever. That's out. And be united to his wife. So in other words, we get married. And the two will become one flesh.

So what you have there is you have the definition of marriage. And then he says, therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate. What you have there is a sexual, heterosexual, lifelong covenant union between a man and a woman. And Jesus goes, that's what's right. By implication, everything else is out. And I love you. He went to that text because when Jesus defines marriage, it's usually in response to questions about divorce. So Jesus could have simply said, don't divorce. Like, he could have answered the question really briefly and said, no. He could have even quoted part of it said, well, God has brought together, let people and I separate. But I think he knew what he

was doing. He intentionally went back and even defined the host's scope of marriage and then went on there. That's just one thing I think is important to point out. So yes, he did. He did. didn't use specific language around homosexuality, but he knew what he was doing when he defined it. He could have somebody said, nope, don't get divorced, but he actually gave a positive definition of marriage and identified the target, like you said. You will also, to Paul's point, you'll hear people sometimes, and there's a wonderful grace in this. You will hear people sometimes mistakenly be like, oh, man, there's a few Old Testament clobber

passages. Actually, it's reaffirmed in the New Testament. So here's your homework. Go read Romans 1 or 1st Corinthians 6. And here's what I love about 1st Corinthians 6 is he lists all these sins and he lists things like theft and murder and you know there's a few other

slander, a few other things. And then he goes, and men who practice homosexuality. And he goes, man, these people will not inherit the kingdom of God. And he's saying, if you continue in these sins in an unrepentant way, then that is an indication you have not placed your faith in the Lordship of Jesus and submitted to

him. So he won't inherit the kingdom of God, but then he goes, and such were some of you. but you were washed, you were cleansed, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus. That's gospel. That's a gospel. That's great news. So it's simply untrue that Jesus, and especially the New Testament, ever talk about this, it specifically does. You want to keep going?

Let's keep going. Actually, I say one more thing. Please do. Actually, so I'm so sorry. I cut you all. I think even just to help people clarify, because it's a common misnomer to say, oh, the religious right has made these two issues, the biggest issue. No, no, no.

The biggest two issues is the lordship of Jesus and the authority of his work. And so anytime you're going to challenge that, we're going to respond. And then with that one thing that sometimes theologians are historians like to say is that heresy often precedes orthodoxy. Not in the sense that we make up what we believe, but when what we believe begins to be challenged, we then have to directly and clearly articulate what Christians have always believed. So it may seem like we're the ones who are elevating these things. We're simply responding to what the culture has elevated. Yeah, it's one of my, as a pastor, that's like one of my pet peeves, is like the entire

entire culture will scream about an issue. And it's like every commercial, every movie, every talk show, everything you read is about this issue. And then a pastor addresses, they're like, you, that's the only thing you focus on. I'm like, bro, are you kidding? Like, preach the Bible only. Are you guys? I hate that. All right. Let's keep going. Keep going. And, you know, the Southern Baptist Convention was pro-choice until the late 1970s. Okay, it would pause. Do we want to do all the, do we want to listen to the whole thing and And then go to the arguments, you do want to clip by clip. Let's do that. Let's do clip by clip. Yeah,

because I want to make sure we answer that. So Paul Cunningham, the Southern Baptist Convention was pro-choice until the 1970s. What say you? No. Just a great example of maybe a half-truth being twisted to try to make your argument. I actually think we have the text that we're going to put up of the resolution from 1971. You've pulled it? I pulled it.

He pulled it. So if we're going to say these things. Of course he did. I did not memorize it. But if we're going to say these things, let's actually read context. We're going to skip down actually to where it says, be it therefore resolved. Be it therefore resolved at the Southern Baptist Convention, this is a key line while reaffirming our historic commitment to the sanctity of life. What year was this? This is 1971. So in other words, what they're about to say before they say, while reaffirming, they were saying, hey, we are pro-life. And then it goes on, and it does say, call upon Southern Baptist to work for legislation that will allow for the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformality, and then likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother.

So they were not pro-choice. They were pro-life. but as a denomination did decide that they would say, hey, there are some exceptions that we believe should be legal. Now, that doesn't mean what we have to agree with what they said, by the way. That's right. Because a few years later, there was what was called the conservative resurgence that there were very liberal elements in the Southern Baptist Convention at this time. And over the next 10 to 15 to 20 years, there was a research that basically, hey, we have drifted away from the Bible and we need to reclaim that. So I'm not saying this to say, hey, we agree with what Southern Baptist wrote here.

it's really just trying to give the greater context of saying, hey, while we're reaffirming our commitment to the sanctity of human life. So they were not pro-choice. They were pro-life with exceptions. I'll add this. So the implication that James Synagogue of Satan pastor, whatever his name is, what his implication is like, and by the way, if somebody's listening, like, that's mean,

I'm going to explain why I'm saying that later. It's not mean. It's actually a very loving thing to be very clear about something like that. But the implication he's trying to make is, man, actually, this is something that church is just disagreed on and various opinions. I agree to disagree. That's right. That is just historically, radically false.

It's like all the way back to something called the Didike, which was a collection of Christian writings, like right after. Actually, the Didicate was written before the book of Revelation, if I remember, right? Yeah. Well, in this late 90s, early hundreds, many people would say it was written concurrently with the Gospel of John. There you go. So, like, this is still in the at times.

when the policies were living in early Christians. So here's a quote from the Didicate, the earliest Christians. What is it explaining for the people that have no idea what that? It's like a collection of devotional writings. How would you describe it? The Didicate literally just means the teaching. It's like a church manual. It's like an early church manual basically saying, hey, here's just a list of the things.

Yeah, yeah. Here's a quote from the Didake, AD 70. It's pretty straightforward. You shall not procure abortion. It's kind of straightforward. This is, here's one from what was called the Letter of Barron. It's an apocryphal deal, but it's dated to around AD 74. Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion.

Early Church Father Turtulian, AD197. Here's a quote from Turtulian. Murder being once for all forbidden. We may not destroy even the fetus in the womb. Turtulian, 197 AD. Here's John Chrysostom. Didn't they call him golden mouth? He was one of the greatest preachers in the history of Christop.

Yeah, a lot of people say John Chrysostom. Osstom's, yeah. And he refers to in a John Chrysostom sermon, murder before the birth. So it's like, this is the uniform testimony of the church for since the beginning. If we fast forward a thousand years, Thomas Aquinas talking about something called the sentences, he who destroys life in the womb incurs the guilt of murder. So even like sometimes, I think he's just basically the guy is trying to say, oh yeah, it's just a disagree, disagree issue. People have disagreed. And like, no, like, if I put you in a travel machine, time travel machine, and we went to any time before really last 50 years, like this view would have been described as heresy. I mean, just outright heresy.

And just to clarify, we don't have time to expand too much on this, but for somebody that's listening in and it's curious because they're like, well, but do you agree with the 1971 position of like, yes, pro-life, but with some of these exceptions, Josh, you would say. I do not. That's right. Yeah, I do not. Now, by the way, tremendous overwhelming, like, compassion for any circumstance like that. But no, like, and dude, some of the people are you crazy? That's what you believe? I'm like, actually, no, that's not what I believe. That's what the Bible says. And I'm going to be a Bible guy. And the Bible is just really clear, you shall not murder. Murder equals the taking of innocent life. There's a whole different podcast. There's the just taking of life and the unjust taking of life.

The just taking of life are things like the death penalty for appropriate criminal offenses. And the unjust taking of life is anything else. So I'm just like, hey man, I do not think one sin necessitates another aggrat. I'm sure we'll address all of this because I'm sure people are going to be asking some more questions in a future episode just FYI. That's probably coming soon. Let's keep going. Well, when was abortion even invented? Well, there was certainly abortions in the ancient world.

There is some, well, there's some, there's, and again, I haven't stated this enough to say this definitively, but there are interpretations of certain passages from the Torah, where some folks will even say that there is a, there is some subtle instructions for how to perform an abortion in the ancient world, certain things to drink, things like that. Let's pause. You want to start? You're probably in a more. All right. He took his hat-off. So here, let me talk about what he's referring to, okay? He's referring to Numbers Chapter 5.

Numbers 5, verse 11 through 31. It gives these, it's an Old Testament law, and it's giving the instructions for what the nation of Israel should do when there's a woman accused of adultery, but there are not witnesses. So the husband has reason, maybe biological reasons, to believe that his wife has been unfaithful, but there's not multiple witnesses.

Numbers five is prescribing what should have been done in Old Testament Israel in that circumstance. And here's, I'll give a quick description of it. So the priest would put the woman under oath and make her swear under penalty of a curse that she was innocent of adultery. After the wife swore her innocence, her oath was written on a scroll. Next, the priest would put the scroll into the water until ink came up off the water, at which point he removed the scroll from the cup. then the priest took the grain offering from the woman, burned it on the altar,

and she would drink the bitter water. If innocent, then the bitter water would have no effect, but then if guilty, there would be a physical consequence. And there's debate about how the translation of the physical consequence. We can get to that in a second. But that's what he's referring to. Paul, your response. Three issues.

Number one, the text never mentions pregnancy. Yes. Very important. Interesting. Number two, this is about, and you were basically saying this, it's about divine judgment, not human abortion.

That's right. And then number three, traditional Jewish interpreters have never seen this as about abortion. And so one thing that I actually like when I'm teaching people how to interpret the Bible

is that if you're seeing something no one has seen before, it's because it isn't there. I mean, that's why even when we were referring to people in their views on this throughout history, tradition can be a bad thing.

But conditional can also be a good thing. Tradition is the democracy of the dead. It's where dead people get a vote. And if no one really has seen this until I again in the last 50 years and interpret the text in this way, that should give us pause. So those are just three huge issues with this text

in terms of using this of any kind of a reference to justify abortion. That the Bible teaches abortion. That's exactly right. So the things to keep in mind, and we don't need to deep dive into this, let's keep going through the clip. But essentially, there's debate about the translation

of the physical consequence that the Bible says would happen under the judgment of God. Most people translate it, the falling away of the thought. what he's doing is some people will translate it as like the shriveling up of the womb. And then he's imputing into the text, as Paul mentions, pregnancies never mentioned.

That, ah, well, if she was pregnant because of the adultery, then it's talking about the miscarriage of their. And number one, Paul mentions that's pregnancy never mentioned. Number two, that's not the likely interpretation of the passage. Number three, we just need to acknowledge this. It is not culturally popular to acknowledge this. but the potter has the right over the clay. Anytime that God decides to take life, he can do that because he created it.

That does not give us the ability to do that. And with this, if you're listening to this, you're not familiar with this, is that there was also not just punishment for the woman, but for the man as well. So if you're just here and there's like, oh, why was it just for the one? No, no, no, no. It was also punishment for the man. This was just basically the test to see it's something had happened. Yeah, that's right.

Let's go on. Yep. The point is that this. this idea that there is a set Christian orthodoxy on the issue of abortion is just not rooted in scripture. We can have a honest debate about it. Pope Francis. Say more about that. I just said, do not pass go, do not collect 200 hours. We are, we don't need to talk about this. We already mentioned the uniform testimony of church history. You know, we're to come back and sit at this table and tell me, you know, James, I'm pro-life and anti-abortion. Here's my theological argument. I'm

here to listen and respect that opinion. I have, I have dear friends who, who are anti-abortion. All I'm asking is that for Christians who are pro-choice and who respect the bodily autonomy of women, that we be given the space to make our theological argument, because I think there is a lot of biblical evidence to support that opinion. What do you think is? So a couple of things, he's going to these arguments. I'll just, so you got to watch this. I did debate team in high school. Here's what you got to watch out for. What people always say is whoever controls the terms wins the debate. Yes. So if you frame it in terms of bodily, so that's what people will do is they'll smuggle in language that also smuggles in assumptions, the bodily autonomy of women. Okay,

that's actually not we're talking about, man, because there's two bodies involved, not just one. That's what you got to watch out for. There's two bodies involved, not just one. We're not talking about bodily autonomy. We're talking about you're saying you have the right over somebody else's bodily autonomy. That's what happens when you take somebody else's life in utero. All right, let's keep going. What do you think is the biblical evidence to support the opinion of being pro-abortion? So one, you know, in Genesis, God creates life by breathing life into the first human being, which we later call Adam, that life starts when you take your first breath. And that is actually the mainline position in Judaism.

is that that's when life starts. Pause. Okay, so appeal it. All right, you go, you go. Like, appealing to Adam's creation to define when life begins, it's like using the burning bush to define laws of botany and thermodynamics.

All right, there you go. In the sense of those are, it's a supernatural exception. It's not the norm in the pattern. Okay. And so I even like I'd say like, it's just a general thing is, have you got to be careful about taking

in a supernatural exception in Scripture and then saying, all right, and then this defines the pattern for the rest of Scripture. That would be one. So Adam was not conceived. He was created uniquely from the dust. Here's the point. Adam was never a fetus. He was never a fetus. And that's what I'm saying is he's a supernatural exception. You can't then say, oh, therefore, everything is like this. The other thing would be is that scripture teaches that human life does begin in the womb, not at birth. I mean, even just a few places. Number one, and Luke, when it talks about the baby leaping in Elizabeth's womb. First person ever worship Jesus.

First person ever worship Jesus is an unborn child. And the word that is used baby, Brefos, is the same word that is used of infant and children. Wow. So it doesn't distinguish. It's the same thing. You obviously have texts like Psalm 139,

Jeremiah, where it says, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. But I also think a key thing here is to remember, like, the breath of life is a poetic image. And what's interesting is later in Ecclesiastes, we get that same kind of imagery. It's what it says.

As you do not know, way the spirit or wind or breath comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child. So here he's trying to make the argument of, oh, no, breath is what gives life. That doesn't happen until the baby is outside. Here it says that the breath comes to the baby wild is still in his mother's womb. And so yeah, yeah. He got it. I don't need anything to add anything. He nailed it. And he did say, did he say that it was like the mainstream Judaism perspective? Is that, is that true? That it's, it might be true today, but there's been variations. I mean, like, for example, We've got Philo, who is an early Jewish rabbi who would have said abortion was wrong and kind of a thing.

I'm not sure that's true. Even if it's mainstream belief doesn't mean that it's right. That's right. We're going Bible. Yeah. That's great. Bible, Bible, Bible. Let's keep going.

Then if you think about it from a Christian perspective, what something interesting that Jesus does throughout his ministry is he is breaking first century norms about women, talking with women, learning from women, having women lieutenants in his movement. And this was something that was kind of unheard of in the first century. The longest conversation Jesus has with anybody in the whole Bible is with the Samaritan woman at the well. And so this affirmation of women as full and equal people is a huge part of the Jesus movement, especially the early church. Pause. First of all, we agree with his last sentence. That's really important. We totally agree with his last sense that Jesus did treat women as full and equal people.

He did not equals, but not equivalence. That's a whole different discussion, you know. But totally agree. But let me just say like, that's quite a leap to go from. Jesus had a long conversation with a woman one time. Therefore, that's quite a leap. Yeah, literally I wrote down. I think I had two bullet points and one was like, yes, and.

Yeah, that's right. I guess just like, yeah, like you said, totally agree. Yeah, man, and we need to remember that too in terms of how Jesus treated women. but then even go into the didicate and other writings and the earliest Christians who are the closest to Jesus, by the way, than we are, did not then use that to then justify abortion. Yes. Yes.

Yeah, just want to point out like, A, I would just be like, yeah, man, but like Jesus forbade murder. Really, the whole discussion, like, is, you know, you can have a million emotional situations thrown out, and that stuff, as Christians, we should care. We should weep with those who weep. We should be the ones that, like, that's a reason we give huge amounts of money at Lake Point,

crisis pregnancy centers, foster care and adoption, all the, you know, women who are victims of sex trafficking. There's a reason we like, we go all out on that stuff, our sore ministry for kids with special needs. There's a reason we go out on and stuff. So you can throw out all of the emotional things that will pull you emotionally. Really, here's the only question, is it murder? That's the only question that matters.

Is it murder? We didn't get to this sort of, but it might be helpful to do it now, is, can I just briefly state like the historical Christian case in terms of like the reasoning of why we believe this is wrong? Of course. Okay. And I actually take this from Andrew Walker who adapted this from David Beckwith, who wrote a book called Defending Life.

So basically four premises. Number one, an unboard child is a member of the human species. So whatever is in the mother's womb, is it either living or dead? Well, it's living. Okay, well, then if it's living, it's a living what? Yeah. So living human. So an unborn child is a member of the human species.

We gave texts already throughout the Bible in terms of where we see that life begins the moon. That leads to point number two, it is morally wrong to take the life of an innocent member of the human species. Book of Exodus, you shall not murder. Proverbs 616 through 17. God hates the shedding of innocent blood. I mean, that's just like you got to feel the way that. He hates the shedding of innocent blood. Number three, abortion takes the life of a member of the human species, which leads number four.

Therefore, abortion is immoral. That's the case. Yeah. It's that simple case. And again, we're going to move on, but we'll keep going back to that all this is, but in the same way, there's a reason the New Testament talks about and such were some of you. Yes. But you were washed.

You were cleansed. So what I always want to say, and I just want to interject it to what, like Jan and I pray with women who have terminated pregnancies and they, you have, the grief that sometimes, you know, we'll pray with somebody in the lobby is unspeakable. And what we always remind them is, hey, the death that most defines your life is not the death of your son or your daughter. It's the death of the son of God that cleanses you from all sin. There you go.

Yes. And so you need to sleep really good tonight, just knowing the father is pleased with you. So I want to get that in. Let's keep going. That's right. And then the last, I think, story I would go to is the story of Mary. Dude, this is hilarious. Mary is probably my favorite figure in the Bible, the mother of Jesus.

And, you know, she is, she's an oppressed peasant teenage girl living in poverty under an oppressive empire as a Jew. And she has a vision from God that she's going to give birth to a baby who's going to bring the powerful down from their thrones, going to scatter the proud, who's going to send the rich away empty. I mean, this revolutionary song that she sings is called the Magnificat. and it's actually been banned by certain authoritarian regimes because it is so radical. But I say all this in terms of the context of abortion because before God comes over Mary and we have the incarnation, God asks for Mary's consent. No, he didn't. Which is remarkable.

Go back and read this in Luke. I'm going to read it. By the way, we're pro-consent, by the way. Angel comes down and asks Mary. if this is something she wants to do. And she says, if it is God's will, let it be done. Let it be. Let it happen.

So to me, that is an affirmation in one of our most central stories that creation has to be done with consent. You cannot force someone to create. Creation is one of the most sacred acts that we engage in as human beings. But that has to be done with consent. It has to be done with freedom. And to me, that is absolutely consistent with the ministry and life. and death of Jesus.

All pause. So first of all, I just want to make very, very clear, all Christians should unequivocally, it's consent. That's like, let me just, but well, what people do on the internet is like, but so you're saying, so I just like, honestly, dude, like Old Testament, I think that forcible rape should be a death penalty. So let me just get that out there.

So very, very, very pro consent. But this is a weird thing to say. Paul, why is it a weird thing to say? So he said to go back and read it, so I would love to. That'd be great. Before I could, can we just stop in like, this is when I read that, I'm when I listen to, this is probably the part that infuriated me the most. Like, do you really want to base your theology of abortion on the fact that Mary could have aborted the son of God? Yeah.

That he could have killed the son of God 33 years before everybody else got a chance. Is that really like what you want to base your theology of abortion on? But I can revisit that another time. So I actually go and read the text. like he told us to. So the angel said to her, do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, I'm going to put some emphasis on words, because I think you're going to see a pattern. You will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. Shall it be a command? He will be great and will be called the son of the most high. And the Lord God will give him the throne of his father, David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever. In his kingdom, there will be no end. And Mary said to the angel, how will this? be, since I'm a virgin, and the angel answered her, the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the child of be born will be called holy, the son of the son of God.

And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age, has also conceived a son, and this is the six months with her who was called barren. For nothing will be impossible with God. You skipped the, if it's okay with you. Would this be okay with you? No, I was literally going to stop there. So did you guys hear like any place where God said, hey, would it be okay with it? If it's okay.

Yeah. If it's okay. So like all these statements are firm. This is going to happen or you shall do this. It just, it just like literally made up a Bible for you. And then it's wild. Yeah.

And then it does say, and Mary said, behold, I'm the servant of the Lord. Let it be to me according to your word. And the angel apart from her. So actually, when I was thinking about this,

if anything, this confirms our viewpoint, which is she basically says, I'm going to be obedient. So yeah, she, in a sense, did give consent to obey. So that question would be, if she had not given consent, what would that have been?

Sin, it would have been disobedience. Never in any place of this. You get any hint of God saying, hey, as long as it's okay with you. So here's it. So I just want, let me boil this down. Is that the end of the clip? I think we're, I think we're on right. Yeah, that's it.

So here's what I'm going to point out. Here's a big idea. Zoom out for that dude James, synagogue of Satan James. All of these obscure passages with like loony interpretations are. secretly about abortion, but you shall not murder, isn't. I just like, that's really, you zoom out, that's what's going on. All these obscure passages that had this, you know, secret, uh, interpretation that nobody's ever noticed before.

Those are about abortion, but you shall not murder isn't. That's your problem. There's your problem. Yeah. A couple of questions briefly for you, Pastor Josh, but why are you talking about this? This is a political issue. You're a pastor. Yeah.

So what I would say is, no, no, people keep saying that. The churches get more political. like, no, no, the church is not getting political, politics, or getting spiritual. It's my little riff. I say it all the time, because I get accused of this all the time. Church is getting political. Nope, it's not. Politics are getting spiritual. When the government moved past things like building roads and issuing driver's licenses and teaching math to things like redefining marriage, erasing gender, reframing abortion as quote-unquote reproductive rights, and then indoctrinating everybody's kids into believing those things via the government school system, hey, the church

didn't move, politics did. And whenever the government moves out of the government moves out of of its lane and into the church's lane about things like morality, definitions of life and marriage, it's the job of the church. We go like, someday we should like super nerd out on like Kuiperian's fear sovereignty, Abraham Kuiper and Sphere Sovereignty, Theology of societal arrangements. But whenever the government moves out of their lane and into the church's lane, it's the job of the church to like, hey man, get back in your lane or I'm going to have to put you in the dirt. And that's what's happening right now.

Church is going, hey man, get back in your lane. You don't define what life is, marriage is, gender is. No, no, that's God's job. Get back in your lane and submit to the Lordship of Jesus. Here's one more. Wait, but Christians are supposed to be nice, and you just called them pastor of the synagogue of Satan. Yeah, so I would just, dude,

Paul referenced it earlier. Jesus said, anyone who causes one of these little ones to sin, it would be better for him to have a millstone tied around his neck than to continue. So, dude, when people accuse us of being clear, this is somebody who is publicly on the largest podcast in the world, influencing Christians towards sin and not just sin, but sin that results in the mass taking of innocent human life. That is not a moment for measured words.

Let's be night. No, no, that's a moment to be like, sin. down, shut up, and you are resulting in people dying. So if somebody's like, hey Josh, that's mean, no, no. What's mean is allowing someone to continue teaching things that if believed will result in death and people going to hell. That's mean. And it's biblical, by the way.

Even when you say synagogue of Satan, if people don't realize, you're really just referring to a term that's in scripture. Yeah, sorry, that's a, I'm quoting Revelation 3. Yeah. And then also, like, if you read through the epistles and even look through Jesus, where they get heated and they're not afraid to do things like this is when the flock is being attacked and misled. So even like in Galatians, when false teachers are trying to lead them away around the issue of circumcision, Paul Lillia says, I wish they would just mask you like themselves.

Galatians 5, 6 something. And so you see like scripturally any time the flock is being misled, basically Christian leaders have the responsibility to rise up and speak very pointedly and call it out. That's Carlos, that's why I asked to do this on a podcast. Because again, the number of people who sent that clip to me. And it was people who like, hey, what do you think about this? They were confused. And honestly, let me just like gently, because there's a lot of pastors that watch this, part of the reason that a lot of Christians are confused is because the pulpits have not been clear.

So like, that's our job. Let's do our job. Jude 1, verse 3, Beloved, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints. That's it, man. That's it. Before you finish this, I just want to point one other thing out about this guy.

So that clip went insanely viral. Like insanely viral. I think Joe Rogan said he should run for president. He did say he should run for president, which is terrifying. What I want to point out, I went and scoped out this guy. First of all, I think he passed out of a church

of like 11 people. It's like, you can just tell. That's a whole side note. like this is a whole different podcast progressive Christianity uh grows social media platforms but shrinks churches i'll just that is a thing uh that is totally a thing this guy like came on the scene preaching against christian nationalism he was like all these like these uh these politicians are trying to use the bible to influence their uh their policy and that's evil christian nationalism well what i want to point out is he's preaching against christian nationalism and then he's using

obscure, incorrect, and loony interpretations of scripture to inform his public policy decisions. So you'll see this a lot. Progressive Christians are extremely politically active, like way more politically active than conservative Christians. Someday we should talk about this. The data around the political activity of progressive Christians vastly more politically engaged than conservative Christians, which is really interesting, a whole different thing. but what you'll notice conservative or progressive Christians do is they do Christian nationalism for me but not for thee. They constantly do that. So they accuse conservative Christians of you guys are doing Christian nationalists. It's not fair for you to bring your personal beliefs in the public square. And then they'll walk out and they'll be like, well, Jesus was an immigrant, so we should have open borders.

Jesus fed the poor, so we should have unlimited welfare and USAID and universal basic income. You saw this two years ago, tons of these statements from progressive Christians where they would talk about Jesus makes a comment about Unix. And we don't have, I don't want to talk about this right now. He makes a comment about Unix and some people were made Unix and some people became Unix, you know, by choice, that kind of thing. And progressive Christians who were politically engaged pointed to those like, see, it's okay to be transgender. We should have affirming transgender laws. So my point is the same dude that gets famous preaching against Christian nationalism goes on Joe Rogan and is like, hey, because of my beliefs about Scripture, here's what the public policy should be. Christian nationalism for thee, for me, but not for thee.

And before we close, I think even just, I mean, you basically hinted this earlier said it, but I think it's worth saying again is when we're saying all these things, we have to remember like, Jesus died for him. That's exactly right. wrong comments. And he died for every person who's ever performed an abortion, had an abortion, or anything like that. So we want to be very, that's the beauty of the gospel. I mean, even like the apostle Paul was like, man, I persecuted the church. And he had wrong ideas about Jesus. And Jesus confronts him on the road that why are you persecuting me? And yet the beauty of the gospel is that that Jesus died for Paul. And he died for everyone we've been talking about. And we also are people and pastors who, when we see error spreading

and it's taking people away from that Jesus, we also have to come. And while we're not attacking, trying to attack people, we do want to destruct ideas. And so I think that's just a nuance that I'll make sure we wanted to share is that, man, Jesus, every person may have a heart for them to come to know Jesus,

but we also want to keep people from going away from the way of Jesus by being clear what he taught. Bible says, love people, destroy arguments. That's right. And that's what we want to, by the grace of God, keep doing. Pastor Josh, would you, please pray for us. Well, Jesus, thank you for the infinite grace you have given us. And Lord,

just even right now, I'm reminded that every man at this table, we are all responsible for the death of the son of God. And so just like your word says, we are all alike under sin and good news. We have a savior that loves, died for, and cleansed sinners. Father, thank you. Thank you for your grace. I pray that truth would permeate the hearts of your disciples. I pray that we would be men and women of conviction, compassion, courage. I pray that grace, the grace of Jesus Christ, friend of sinners, would be the flavor of our hearts. And Lord, I pray for our people that you would lead them in paths of righteousness for your namesake.

So Lord, we love you. We give these things to you as a sacrifice in the name of your son. Amen. Amen. Thanks for tuning in to live free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review, and share the podcast, and don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode.

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