Live Free with Josh Howerton - Is President Trump Saved?!...Will He Go To Heaven? (ft. Rich Froning) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

How do we KNOW if we are going to Heaven? In this kickoff episode of the Run to Win series, Pastors Josh Howerton, Carlos Erazo, Paul Cunningham, and guest Rich Froning dive into what it means to live with eternal purpose. From unpacking the Bema Seat vs. the Great White Throne judgment to reacting to President Trump’s recent comments about Heaven, this episode explores grace, salvation, humility, and how to run your spiritual race with discipline and focus. Don’t miss Rich’s powerful testimony and the challenge to live not for applause, but for the eternal prize. 👍 Like, Comment, & Subscribe for more life-changing podcasts! 🔔 Turn on notifications so you never miss an update! 📝 SHOW NOTES Subscribe now to receive the show notes directly in your inbox with each new episode. These notes are filled with key insights and scripture to help you reflect and grow deeper in your faith – https://lakepointe.church/shownotes 👇 DON’T MISS OUT! God can use your 'YES" to make a difference in someone's life! Click the link to learn more about our Annual Missions Offering and how you can be a part of life-change!: lp.social/amo ⛪ ABOUT LAKEPOINTE CHURCH: We believe that Lakepointe is a movement for all people to Know God, Find Freedom, Discover their Calling, and Make a Difference. With 7 DFW locations and programs for all ages, there's something for everyone. 🤝 Support this ministry and help us reach more people with the Gospel: https://lakepointe.church/give STAY CONNECTED: 🌐 Website: https://lakepointe.church/ 👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lpconnect/ 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lpconnect 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lakepointechurch FOLLOW PASTOR JOSH: 👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowertonJosh/ 📸 Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/josh_howerton/?hl=en 🎥 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@howertonjosh FOLLOW RICH FRONING: 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richfroning/?hl=en 🎧 LISTEN ON THE GO! ▶️ Live Free on Spotify / https://open.spotify.com/show/353ryGdZNlebaiqkCcy3Yc ▶️ Live Free on Apple Podcasts / https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/live-free-with-josh-howerton/id1669321198

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the Word of God tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ.

Thanks for tuning in. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. My name is Carla Zarazzo, and I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton. It is time to kick this pig.

It is time to kick this pig. Pastor Paul Cunningham. I remixed that phrase today, and Josh is like, not how you say, though. Literally 10 seconds before this podcast started recording, Carla said, it is time to kick this pig. Like, very matter-of-factually. It's time.

I'm owning it, man. I'm remixing it. This is an interesting episode here. Yeah. It's going to be a good one. We got, hey, here in just a second, you all got to stay tuned. We have Rich Froning, the world's three-time most fit man cross-fit champion of the universe. That's right.

We connected on Instagram, and then we've been texting. Dude, Rich is a good dude, like very public with his faith. And it got a monster and we're just going to tease this. The episode will end with me. With a masterclass on how to do push-ups by me for Josh and Rich. That's right. Me, Carlos, and Rich are going to do an actual push-up competition to close the episode. Let's go.

Man, Rich is, I will say, I appreciate how humble he is. Very. So humble. Yeah. He's a good dad, too. That's right. So, man, I had a great time with him. Yeah, it's going to be awesome, man.

Yeah. Cool. Well, hey, before, actually, man, by the way, great job last episode where I missed it. And it was great, man. We are here. I didn't introduce Paul. The Epistle Missal Paul Cunningham. By the way, I got a nickname for you.

Oh, no. So, yeah, multiple nicknames. Hey, thank you to everybody that suggested different nicknames. And I think the Epistle Missal is probably the winner. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. So it's hard to be. So I'm going to try.

Pretty good. So here's the one I got. I can't wait. So you know when you, Josh, when you talk to Paul and you just ask him like a theological question, he goes like Chad GBT mode, right? Obviously, you're going to see that in a second too. This is going to be so good. So my nickname for Paul is when he goes in high theological mode, man, because you remind me of Chad GbT, you are chat G Paul T. Oh, man.

Oh, wow. Because of, Gipal T. Chad G Paul T. G Paul T. J Paul T, man. Anyway, so Hey, you can do G-Paul C.

C. Cunningham. Chad G-Pal C. Chad G-Pal C, man. G-P-C. Let us know in the comments section if you like this one Chad G-Pal C

or the Epistle Missile. I mean, they're both pretty great. And then we can give the hat away. Yeah. That's it. We're going to keep giving away, where's the camera? We're going to keep giving away

the live free has to somebody in the comment section on you. YouTube. So they can also do the like, comment, subscribe. By the way, the pot is just blowing up. It's crazy. And it's because of everybody like and subscribe. Oh, help us with reviews. Help us with, yeah, I want to get that review count up, especially on iTunes. Spotify. That's right, man. And let's help us out with that. Yeah, let us know how much you like Pastor Josh in the Apple review. But no, Carlos, we're just glad you're back, man. I mean, last week in your place, we had a

window washer. We did. What? What are you talking about? He didn't watch it. He didn't watch it. He's not on the podcast. He's like,

I'm not going to watch this. He's on vacation. I might have watched the first. I don't know. He's on vacation. You don't got to watch the podcast. Yeah, no shame. We were in the middle of the podcast.

I was in the 23rd floor. That's hilarious. I was on the 23rd floor and in the middle of it, I heard this like bumping. And I turn around as a dude hanging off the top of this tower. Cleaning the window. I was like, I'm glad I'm dressed.

Yeah. That's hilarious. It's like right outside my window. Of all the times, right then. I know. That's great. You didn't invite him to the podcast? Actually, I turned the, I actually did.

He waved. It was awesome, man. So we're going to, we got to move fast on the front end. That's true. That's true. Rich Fronning is going to join us here in a second. The reason we're doing that is we started a series this week called run to win. That is based on passage in Corinthians.

This specifically commands Christians to run in such a way. as to win the prize. And after Rich and I connected, and I've been watching how public he is with his faith as a, you know, just dude building a business, crushing it in his field.

And I was like, man, what better guy to talk about what it looks like to compete in such a way as to win the prize? It's like the world's fittest man three times over. Let's talk.

So he's going to come in. We're going to talk very interesting comments about from President Trump about how he doesn't think he's getting in heaven. and I have a lot of thoughts. And it's really interesting and enlightening. And then I would just want to celebrate one other thing.

We, this last weekend, crossed 2,500 baptisms at Lakeland this year. Wow. That's amazing. Dude, I just want to say it one more time. Like, 2,500 baptisms this year. Just never seen anything like it. And I think it wouldn't surprise me if we saw 3,000 people baptized by the end of the year. Do you remember how many we saw, like,

last year? It was just over 2000. 2000. Yeah, yeah. Wow. It's crazy. I know, man. Praise God. I know. It's amazing. Wow. Hey, before we start, for people that are wondering, maybe they're new, we actually compile everything that we're going to be discussing. Key takeaways, main highlights, chat, G, Paul, C, notes, etc. We put it into a document, and we call these the discussion questions. Actually, we call them the discipleship guide. And we're also also known as the show notes. And what we do is we believe that your next step after this podcast is community. And so, man, we've had over 5,000 people download. That's crazy. That's amazing. And so you can take these notes to your discipleship guide to your

group. And again, it's a tool for you to continue to go deeper in your discipleship. And so to get the show notes, text the word notes to 20411 or go to lake point.com.com. at church slash show notes. Pastor Josh, what else did it make it into this? Let's make this short because we want to have time for Rich and then I do want to talk about the Trump thing. A couple things real quick. So if you miss a sermon, you know, highly recommend, you know, this honestly is like a life message

for me. I mentioned this at the beginning of the sermon. Pastor Chris Hodges, and I just want to shout him out, has become kind of a spiritual father, a mentor to me. He was just here a couple weeks ago at Lake Point here to pray with me and help our team. And this message, kind of a life message about judgment, about essentially this message was what is going to happen to you the second you die. So like 60 seconds, very frankly, it leads right into the Trump clip. Very, 60 seconds after you die, what is going to happen?

And we talked about two judgments, Great White Throne judgment, what's called the Bima seat judgment. We're going to talk about that more on the pod when Rich hops in because there's some really cool. archaeological stuff that we'll get to. But honestly, man, like, just here's what didn't have time to make it in the sermon. It's very interesting. A lot of people don't know this. You know, humans, we're bad. We don't think about death.

Like, we never think about death. A lot of people don't realize there's a spiritual reason for that. I won't, I won't. It's not fair to, uh, theologically pop quiz you guys with a camera rolling. That's like not cool. But I kind of want you to do that. I was going to say, all right, Carlos. What's the first lie Satan ever told?

on earth actually let me do this sorry what's one of the let me do it what's one of the first two lies Satan ever told on earth on earth

I'll go get on earth I don't know if you're going to Zechial or anything you know okay he would say well did God really say yeah that's one of the first two you will not die that's it

he said you will not surely die so one of the first things he ever planted in the heart of a fallen human soul was you will not surely die. So think about this, if you if you kind of ask like, man, it is actually kind of interesting, everybody's going to die. Like bad news, y'all. Every single person. It's that whole, I think it's an Ann Lamont quote, 100 years, all new people. But we don't think about it. The most momentous event from a human perspective in your life, people just don't think about it. There's a spiritual reason for that. Satan plants a deception of the heart of people so that they won't

think about the fact that they're going to die because if they start thinking about it, they'll do something about it. Okay, so this is really interesting. Blaise Pascal, who I think was a 17th century because I think he was the 1600s, wrote a really interesting book called The Pency's. Also, this is a little side note. Next time we do a Holy Spirit, a Holy Spirit pod where we talk about filling or baptism Holy Spirit, Blaze Pascal French mathematician had one of the most radicals.

radical encounters recorded in church history with the Holy Spirit, essentially had this encounter with the Holy Spirit, I didn't plan to talk about this. I may pull it up actually, this is really awesome. Had this encounter with the Holy Spirit that was so radical that he stopped doing math and spent the rest of his life. He wrote this book called The Pences

that are about basically theology, Jesus, God. When he died, I didn't plan to talk about this, they found sewed into his cloak, his journal entry from this night where he had this encounter with God and he you know it's pretty crazy to read it actually so anyway after that which we'll talk about on a future podcast which really awesome what he says is he used this analogy he says it's like human experience is like this massive party and it's like it's happy people loud music dancing and he's like imagine this party and then every few minutes

a massive, ferocious monster burst through the door randomly grabs one person at the party and pulls them kicking and blood-curdling, screaming out and devours them and everyone watches it happen.

And then he says, everybody sees it happen and they pause for about 10 seconds. And then immediately, the band kicks back up and everybody starts dancing again and everybody goes back to laughing and drinking their refreshments.

And he says, that's what human life is like. Wow. That everyone around you, you will hear these stories about somebody dying. And that's the monster coming and grabbing them. And you know that something awful, like terrifying just happened to them. But everybody just, Ben kicks back up. Wow. We go to work the next day.

Yep. And we don't think about the fact that someday is coming for you. Mm-hmm. Because the first thing Satan never planted in our heart is, you will not surely die. So honestly, the biggest thing preaching about judgment is just getting into people's hearts, your day is coming. Your day is coming.

Where are you going to say, Paul? No, I mean, just all that, it literally says in Hebrews, it is appointed once for all to die, and then comes judgment. That's right. It's the great equalizer. That's right. That at one point, we're all going to die,

and then we're going to stand before God. Yeah. And all of life led to that one moment, and we've got to be ready for that one moment. That's exactly right, man. Wow. Paul, I want you to talk about this a little bit more here in a second. Last thing I'll say, because we're going to get a little more into the text later in the pod,

is I wish I'd have had more time in the sermon to develop, like, the race analogy. Because people probably don't realize how dominant the race, running a race analogy is in the New Testament. One of the verses, shout out Jeff Carlisle, my youth pastor, had me memorize when I first became a Christian, was is from Hebrews 12. So therefore since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders in the sin which so easily entangles and run with endurance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith.

So it's gone, hey, your whole life as a Christianist analogy of this race. Now, I just, do I just want, this is what I didn't, I cut this at the last second from the sermon. I was like, ah, I hate leaving this out. So, Trini, I'm getting ready to, don't toss it up yet. I'm getting ready to toss up that one picture. I love, I love this analogy from Hebrews 12. Like, gray cloud of witnesses, every Christian from all of human history is literally, this passage says like, they're watching you.

And the moment that your day comes and you step into glory, that it's like you're in a massive stadium and they're cheering yon in. So years ago, I saw this. And didn't we pull the context for this picture? Go ahead and toss that picture up. Is this Javier? Yeah, Baez, I believe, yeah. That's number 13. This should be Baez.

Who was it? Trinity. Oh, I was wrong. Who is it? Bote. Boette, David Boette. Oh, I thought it was Baez. Sorry, JPET, get some things wrong sometimes.

Listen, I was trying to zoom in. I was trying to zoom in. Yeah, and I believe number 13. A point in one said, Harvey Baez, and I saw the Bias, my bad. All right, all right. So here's what, dude, here's what. Here's what, so if you're on YouTube especially, I encourage you to get your eyes close to the screen. Years ago, I saw someone make this analogy, and I want to, like, if you can see the faces of these dudes, they're all waiting here at home plate.

And in one sense, they've all crossed the line. And they're all there. And if you can see their faces, it's just pure jubilation. Like they know this, this dude, I think in the context here, he hit a 13th inning home run, just won the game. And bro, he's got to, like, he's got the arms out. He's flying around and third. Third base coach is just like, ah, crowds roaring. These dudes, their face are just like, come on home, home play, come home.

And honestly, man, I think that's what it's going to be like when my day comes. That, you know, great cloud of witnesses and all these guys, that we've read about in the scriptures like the Apostle Paul and Peter, my papal Jerry Howerton, my great-grandfather, all these guys that knew Jesus before me, like the scripture says, they're literally waiting on you. And when your day comes and we're finished running what I hope is a good race, that passage says like, they're right there and they're like, that's amazing. So I just like getting these little mental images that's like, okay, man, that helps me. That's what's going to be like. What you got, Paul? Well, no, I was also

just, I mean, the encouraging thing of just people and fellow Christians just cheering us on. But then also, sometimes what I think about is that we're also like, when we stand before Christ, it'll be the first time that I get to see him face to face. And I'll never have to not see him again. Yeah. But, and this is, I think, should drive urgency into the heart of every believer in Christ. For unbelievers, it'll be the first time. they ever see Christ in the face and the last. That's right. That's a heavy.

And I think that's part of, part of us running a good race is using every moment and all the things that God has given us and stewarding it to see as many people come and join that race with us as we can. That's right. Amen. So that's good. You know, it's interesting that you say that, Paul, because that ties in. So that picture does a good job of illustrating the great cloud of witnesses.

I'll tell you something else that Pastor Steve, my predecessor here at Lake Point, told me. That passage also says, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. In other words, Carlos, there's a race marked out for you. Chat, G Paul C, there's a race marked out specifically for you. There's a race marked out for Jana. There's a race marked out for me. And for every podcast listener, there's like a specific race. that the Lord has marked out for you.

And I will say one of the temptations of Satan that I think is very prevalent is trying to get you focused on somebody else's race. So like this is another, you guys know I store like thousands of things and iPhone notes for sermon illustration stuff. This is another one that I saved years ago. Toss up that one from the 2016 Olympics.

So dude, this is honestly, man, I saved this because I was watching the Olympic when this happened. And I was like, and honestly, I felt like the Lord brought this verse to my mind, and I was like, I never want this to be me. So this is Michael Phelps towards the end of his career, 2016 Olympics. And this was one of his final races. And what you got here is he won this race. It was like 0.01, it was like a millisecond that he wanted this race by. And what the reason that everybody freaked out about this is because look what, his, eyes are on the finish line. The other guy's eyes are on him. The point is, winners focus on winning,

losers focus on winners. So it's like, I do think sometimes what Satan wants you to do is like if he can get you Carlos focused on Paul's race or if he can get me focused on pastor X, Y, Z's race over in Arizona, it's like, then I'll get my eyes off of the race Jesus marked out for me. That's good, man. So I'll be honest. I'll be honest, man, like, as a pastor, like, I wish I was as good of a preacher as Joby Martin. I wish I was as smart as John Tyson. I wish I was as good a leader as Ashley Woldridge. These are pastors. But I'm not. But there's some things that I'm good at that God gave me to do. And what Satan wants to do is get me focused on those other dudes so that I won't run the race marked out for me.

And what Pastor Steve told me when I first came is I was real nervous about following him. And I remember him saying in front of the elders one time as he was like, hey, Josh, here's a deal. You will make a terrible second Steve. You'll make a great first, Josh. That's good. That's great. And so, man, I'd just say for everybody like run the race marked out for you. That's great.

In my home gym, by the way, I love that you're showing some of these like Olympic. I love to see, you know, when you look at somebody performing at their best, like, I have different sticky notes or posters in my home gym to kind of remind me. I'm a visual person, so I need to see things to be reminded. And one of the things I have is it says, there's a note that says, Olympic athletes live a different lifestyle.

And so for me, when I see somebody like a LeBron James, like a Steph Curry competing at such a high level, and the training that they go through, you know, all the diet, all the different disciplines that they have, it's just a good reminder, again, as Christians, like you have a race that you're called to do. And so if you want to compete, when you look at these athletes, there's so many things that they could do, they're free to do,

but not for them, not for them. Like you are called to a specific race that God has given you, and there might be some things that when you look at other people and like, they do it and it's okay for them, yes, it might be okay for them, but it's not okay for you because you have been called to something greater. And so again, it's such a good reminder of, you know, discipline, consistency, going through pain and suffering as well, training the Bible speaks all about this all over the New Testament and it's such a great reminder again

when you see these guys it says it in this passage yeah so like literally right here so the theme verse of this whole series run to win is first Corinthians 924 do you not know that in a race all runners compete but only one receives the prize run that you may obtain it some translations literally say so run to win that's where we got the thing the next verses say exactly what you just said here's here's verse 25 every athlete exercises self-control in all things they do it to receive a perishable wreath but we in imperishable so i do not run aimlessly i do not box as one beating the air but i discipline my body and keep it under control lest after preaching to others i myself should be disqualified that reminds me with my favorite quotes ever a guy named jim elliott if you don't know

his story by the way just people should go look that up and it's just incredible the classic quote from him and says he is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to game what he cannot lose love that it's like the idea of hey whatever is holding us back whether that's a sin or even just a thing that is holding back from a deeper intimacy of Jesus and chasing after him give it up for the sake of what you will never lose love it you also said didn't he say to god made me fast no no no that's that's uh that was uh eric ludel that bro that's a great that's a chariots of fire that's right that's right there you ever seen that uh da da da da da da da i have seen it I have seen it because I read the book.

You saw Sherry's a Fire, but not Toothone. No, that's right. I saw it because I read the book from Eric Metaxus where it's the seven great men. I think he was one of them. Oh, interesting. That's right. That's right. That's a great book.

Anyways. By the way, Metaxus gave us a shout out. Oh, no way. We had a Lake Point member who was at a deal with Metaxis this week and texted me and Mattaxis was giving a shout out. Let's go. Actually, he mentioned the podcast. It's a great author.

I didn't know that. That's great. Huh. Anyways. So yes. You get something on judgment? Were you going to say something, Paul, about. Yeah.

Do you think we have time this week to do it? Yeah, let's see how fast you can do it. Cheap. Wow. Wow. No pressure. Hey, just talk about final judgment in two minutes. Oh, he's got plenty to say.

So do you want me to contrast dispensational covenant or just really talk about the two, maybe save that for another time and really hit between the idea between the two different kinds of judgment? Well, I go over that a little bit. Yeah. I hit that a little bit in the sermon. What things, what are our options? What are our options here? How about this?

How about this? What we'll do? And then you can stop me at any time if you think this is going to go too long. But really all Christians agree that there are really two types of judgment for believers. Can I explain what you're about to do? Yeah, please.

Okay, here's what, I asked Paul to do this. Because some people, when they heard the sermon, one of the hard, let me tell you like, one of the hardest parts about being a preacher, is especially because we, you know, it's a larger church and a lot of people listen to our stuff, all know when I was, when I'm preaching a sermon. Okay, there's a little controversy around this view versus that view,

but I don't have time to go into that in a sermon. And Joe Plummer, I'm just trying to teach him about Jesus. He doesn't care about the covenant theological framework and the dispensational theological framework. And how that adds a little nuance to the two types of, he don't care. So it's like all, one of the hardest parts of the preacher is like, okay, I know when I say this, four percent of the Bible nerds are going to be like, but what about? So we're going to deal with a what about right here. So here's what Paul's about to do is the two primary ways to read the Bible are what's called a covenant theological framework that views the Bible as one covenant

manifesting itself in different ways, but it's all one covenant. And the dispensational theology really views the Bible as a series of very different covenants and epics where God is related to people very differently. And that plays itself out with regard to judgment differently. And by the way, when you say the word covenant for the people that are not familiar, you just mean a type of relationship with God. Yes. Covenant is the same word that we get testament from. It means contract, agreement, testament, and covenant are all coterminous. They all mean the same thing. So it's kind of like in the same way that if I have a contract with you, that's an agreement about how we're going to relate to each other. So when we say covenant, God's making an agreement about how he's going to relate to humankind. Now, real quick, you talk.

talk about two of you. We'll make this fast. Bobbiards. In terms of what, though, I think it's important to start with where we all agree as Christians, there's really two types of judgments. For those who are in Christ, for Christians, our judgment is one of commendation. It's one of where we get to say before God. He says, well done, good and faithful servant.

And then scripture indicates is something that a lot of people actually don't know, varying degrees of reward based on our life of faithfulness and fruitfulness in this life with what he has given us. So our judgment will be one of commendation. That's the idea of the Baymas seat judgment, because the Baymas seat, was a place, or actually with Olympic style events, it was a place for victors. It was not a place for a bad judgment. So, but for those who are not in Christ, for unbelievers, it's one of condemnation. So for believers, it's commendation. For unbelievers, it's condemnation. It's for

a place of punishment. So that's what we all agree. But what we do disagree on is the timing of those things. Probably easiest to actually go with dispensational first, because it's probably the more complicated. We actually have a chart. Can't do dispensational or really any kind of things like this without a chart at least to help us. If you're listening to this, go watch it later or Google dispensational charts and have fun when you do that because there are a ton of them. John Hagee would be proud. Yeah. There's all right. So there's actually multiple judgments in the dispensational framework of how they see things. Dispensationalists would have a very literal interpretation of end times or apocalyptic events. described in the O Testament or New Testament, and based on that, they have a different timeline. Right now, we're in the church age, but eventually there's going to be a resurrection of believers and then a rapture of believers. At that time, there will be a judgment of Christians in the church.

So dispensations would believe, if you're looking at this chart, that when believers are raptured to be with Christ for seven years, that that is when the Bama seat judgment will happen at some point in those seven years. And that's where you'll get the commendation of Christians and varying rewards. During that time of tribulation, there'll be a judgment of Israel. So during the tribulation, Israel will be purged of unbelief and they'll be restored to belief. So that's where Romans 9 through 11 when it talks about, quote, all Israel will be saved. That's when dispensationalists think a massive revival will take place among Jewish people. Bingo. And that's also where dispensation would point to Matthew 25 of the sheep and the goats. That is actually based on how the nations

treat, I'm sorry, this is actually the next judgment. At the judgment of Israel, the judgment of the nations, which is in Matthew 25, is based on then how the nations treat Israel. So during this time, Israel is restored, but then the next judgment, the third judgment, the judgment of the nations, is based in Matthew 25 on how those nations then treat Israel. And there'll be a final judgment of unbelievers at the Great White Throne judgment, which is in Revelation 20. Where are you right now? Yeah, so right now, so during the tribulation, that will be the judgment on Israel. then when Christ comes back, you can kind of see where the arrows come back down. The down arrow.

That is where the judgment of the nations will happen. And that'll be basically where Christ that judges the nations based on how they treated Israel during the tribulation. Then we'll go into the millennium, a thousand-year reign of Christ. And then when you see that chair, that is the final judgment, the great white throne judgment, but judgment specifically of unbelievers and unbelievers. And really the judgment is based simply on what did you do with Jesus Christ? So you have multiple judgments based on their timeline. Covenant theology really sees the apocalyptic and prophetic elements in the Bible to be way more symbolic than literal, and they would collapse it into one singular judgment of unbelievers and believers at the same time. So the two things still happen, but they happen at the same time in a covenant theological framework.

They differentiate the type of judgment, but not the timing of the judgment. And so what they would point to. You got a chart for that? I don't have a chart for that one just because it all happens at one time. Next time I'll bring that chart in. Plus, I was just trying to say time. It just be like, there's just a chair. There's just a chair and all happens at one place. That's cool. But to give you an idea of where they would point to like, you had Revelation 1118,

the nation's rage, but your wrath came and the time for the dead to be judged and for rewarding your servants, the prophets of the saints, and those who you fear name, both small and great and for destroying the destroyers to the earth. So they would say, hey, that's a Revelation 1118. And then most covenant, most of those who are more covenant based would also then then see that would pretty much be mirrored in Revelation 20, where it talks about, I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it, and the dead were judged according to what they had done. But they would see those as the two of the same things.

So you have both the righteous and the unrighteous being judged at the same time. But again, just remember where we all agree is that one judgment for believers is for commendation. It's not condemnation, but then for unbelievers it would be for condemnation. Does that do it? Get it done fast? It does. I'll add this. You touched on it, and this is another thing I wish I had a time to mess with. in the sermon, that there's degrees of reward for Christians in heaven. So not everybody will experience heaven in the same way. That's based on how we live. And conversely, degrees of punishment for people in hell. Not everyone will experience hell the same way. So I will just say,

and we don't have time to, this a different, sometimes we really should do a whole podcast on hell, Gehenna, all the afterlife stuff. But for people who have ever wondered, like, man, so you got this morally good dude that really tried to help people while he was alive, but he didn't believe in Jesus, so I know he's not making it into heaven. But then you also got Hitler and Paul Pot and, you know, Patriots fans and all the people, these people. He just, that's a joke. You got all these people, and they're, yeah, they're much worse. And it's like, man, it doesn't feel fair. Actually, it's very fair because the Bible teaches. that different degrees of punishment in hell.

I'm going to give you a couple passages. So Romans 2 says, for all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law. And all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. So in other words, it's alluding to the fact that people will be judged based on the amount of knowledge that they had. So you get this here. This is, I'll give two more real quick. Jesus tells a parable about servants in Luke chapter 12, and he's talking about judgment. And he says, and that servant who knew his master's will, but didn't get ready or act according

to his will, will will receive a severe beating. But the one who didn't know and then did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. So if you've ever wondered like, and I know the word beating is intense, but hell is intense. Yes. If you've ever wondered like, dude, what about people who, like, they never read the Bible and they didn't know what they were and weren't supposed to do. And Jesus is saying, well, like, God will actually factor all of that into account because God is good, just and fair. And then it says, everyone to whom much was given, of him, much will be required and of him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand more. Last one, I want to say, and then let's move on. This one honestly worries me for the United States of America.

I'll be very, very, very honest. So in Matthew 11, Jesus is leaving these two cities, Corazon and Bethsaida. If you go read your Gospels, a lot of people miss this. He does a disproportionate amount of supernatural healing and work in these two areas, Corazon and Bethsaida. But they don't,

in general, they don't believe him. So then as he leaves, he says, he shakes the dust off his feet. By the way, a lot of Christians don't know this. The reason that they, quote, shake the dust off their feet in the Bible, why Jesus says this, is he's, when,

when they do that, he's saying, judgment will come on this city because of your unbelief. I don't even want to have a speck of dust from this city on my sandals because judgment will fall on every speck of dust. So when they do that in the Bible, that's what they're alluding to future judgment. So he does that and then he says,

what do you cores and what do you best say to? For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Seiden, which were two really evil places in the Old Testament, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth ashes but I tell you listen to this it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon who by the way were much more overtly wicked than Corr's and Besseda it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and

sidon than for you and you Copernium will you be exalted to heaven will you be brought down to Hades for if the mighty works done in you have been done in Sodom so this obviously we know the story of Sodom it would have remained until this day. In other words, Jesus is saying these, you know, perverse, degenerate people, he's gone, I knew their hearts. They would have repented if they saw what you saw. And then he says, it would have remained to this day, but I tell you that it will be more tolerable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you. That passage honestly makes me shudder for the United States of America, because in the history of the world, arguably no nation has ever been exposed to more spiritual

light and truth than the United States of America, and we have turned our back on the living God and wandered into degeneracy and spit in his face. When I read that passage, I genuinely shudder that the living Lord Jesus from heaven is saying, woe to you, United States of America. Because if anybody else had seen what you would have seen, they would have repented as a nation and come to me. So take that to heart. That's what we confuse proximity to Jesus with intimacy with Jesus. And those are two very different things. And I think, yeah, if you're in the United States, it's like, oh, proximity to Jesus, but it's so different than actual intimacy with Jesus. I think I'd say one more thing. This actually, I think we'll transition. I think we want to get to

the President Trump clips is that if you're, if you're listening, they're like, wait a second, I thought we were all saved by grace. When we talk about varying degrees of reward, I thought we were all saved by grace. We are. The gospel, the gospel of grace is opposed to earning, but not to effort. In fact, I would actually say the gospel, God's grace works in us, grace-driven effort. Where you see this so clearly is in 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul says, I was the worst of synergy. Yet the grace of God made me what I am.

And it was not without effect. I worked harder than all of them, which, by the way, he's referring to the apostles there. Oh, which is just awesome. Hey, run to win. Run to win, bro. Run to win. But then he says,

I work harder than everybody else. But then he says, yet it was not I, but the grace of God that was in me. And so like no amount of earning will ever get you into heaven, but grace-driven effort will determine the amount of rewards you will receive in heaven. And so I think that's even maybe a distinction that we, if we could have a conversation with President Trump that we'll get into a minute, maybe that was something that we would help them do. Well, and honestly, that's what this whole series is about. So week one of the series was the fact that our judgment is coming and here's how it's going to work. The last three weeks of the series are what does the Bible say about how to store up treasures in heaven and receive for?

reward. That's the rest of the series. So we'll get there. Let's go, man. Well, we got a clip of President Trump right now. Did you want to preface it? Yeah, let me do this because this is, honestly, this is like really spiritually significant in my opinion. Okay, so if you've been paying attention, President Trump really for the last, like,

I'd say about 18 months, he has talked off and on pretty candidly about heaven. If you go back when he was talking about the Ukraine, He was originally talking about Ukraine war stuff. He kind of was wondering like, man, you know, I think this may get me in.

Talking about heaven. Then there was a later clip where it kind of sounds like somebody around him, spiritual advisor, somebody may have been like, hey, so like that's not how it works. And I want to talk about that here in a second. And then so later you hear a clip where he talks about, man, I think I might be kind of the low man on the totem pole on the heaven line. and then this week he was flying back from accomplishing, I think either flying to or flying back from accomplishing the peace deal between Israel, Hamas and Palestine.

And honestly, man, this was one of the most emotionally gut-wrenching things I've ever seen for him, but I'm also hopeful. So let's check this clip out, and then I'll probably pause us one time and say a couple of things real quick and let's go. is Trump, President Trump on Air Force One, just shooting from the hip answering questions. You had talked a couple weeks ago. You were doing an interview and you talked about how you hope to end the war in Ukraine because it might help you get into heaven. How does this help?

Does this help? I mean, you know, I'm being a little cute. I don't think there's anything going to get me in heaven. Okay. I've really talked. Pause. Okay. First, I just want to, we're going to watch the whole clip here in a second, but I'll pause this. First of all, I want to say it is a wonderful and good thing to have a president that cares about heaven. This is actually a bigger deal than I think people will realize. So one thing that I think we might say, and then we're going to go back this clip, is that the biblical category to potentially put President Trump in, only the Lord knows his heart, and I'm going to say a few things that may add a little nuance to this here

in a second, the biblical category to put President Trump in might be the category of God-fearer. So if you go read the New Testament, there's actually three categories of people. You got the, well, in one sense. You have Christians, and then you have the New Testament also sometimes call them Gentiles, and it's kind of a stand-in word for unbelievers. I'm being really rough with categorizations here. And then you kind of have this middle category that the New Testament mentions, I think it's four or five times, and it calls them God-fears.

And who God-fears were is they were Gentiles who had, had not converted to either Judaism or Christianity, but they cared about the afterlife and they respected the moral code of Judaism. And so they were kind of these people that were like, they were working hard to try to be moral and do good things because they were like, it's kind of this vibe of like, well man, dude,

you know, I wanna honor a big man upstairs. Like that's kind of like your God fear. And what's interesting is in the New Testament, those are a lot of the first people they get saved. Yeah. If you read the book of acts, okay? Now, this is really significant for a couple reasons, but I want to show you something.

I want to put, I think we might want to put President Trump in the category of God fear. Now, what I do want to preface is saying is no one here is saying, and he would not say. In fact, he has, you're going to see it in the clip. He is acknowledging the fact that he has not lived the type of life that would make him like a moral exemplar. That's not what we are saying. And that's not what he's saying. But it is very obvious something is happening in his heart that is making him want to honor whatever, you know, the big man upstairs.

So I'm going to give you some, Trini, I'm going to rifle through some of those picks I sent real quick. So like, if you are paying attention to the Trump presidency so far, it's honestly a little historically unique. he's overtly trying to do things that are good, not for religion in general. It's not doing the normal, like, but not this interfaith thing that they typically do. Like, he's very clearly trying to do things that are good for Christianity and overtly Christian. Let me just rifle through some of those real quick, Trinity. So you got, this is from a speech very early on, when faith gets weaker, our country seems to get weaker. When faith gets stronger, good things happen for our country.

By the way, that's very, very true. Whenever God gets bigger in people's hearts, government can be smaller. And when government, when God gets smaller, the government has to be bigger. And there's reasons for that. Under the Trump administration, we're defending our rights and restoring our identity as one nation under God. Go to the next one. The White House will not celebrate or recognize Pride Month this year. That came in June.

That was a big deal. Obviously, last Pride Month, the whole White House was lit up with the, the rainbow flag thing. Go to the next one. This one absolutely cracked me up. The New York Times, this was like a very scary headline for them. Christianity in the White House.

President Trump has significantly expanded the power and influence of conservative Christians in the government. Ooh, it was very scary. Then Christians are like, yay. Yeah. Cool. Is that bad?

That's great. Okay, keep going. Go to the next one. Let us protect religious liberty, including for the most persecuted religion on the planet today. it's called Christianity. By the way, I've had a limited opportunity to work a little bit with the White House during this administration.

And just from some interesting conversation behind the scenes, what I do know is that President Trump is like actively when he meets with foreign leaders, like actively asking them if it's a country in which persecution is happening. he is asking foreign leaders off record what like using his influence to stop it so you can see that right here let's go to the next one we have gathered at the Pentagon this is like from a White House actual ex account we have gathered at the Pentagon for a monthly worship service we are reminded that we are one nation or God Pete Hig Seth is a very outspoken genuine Bible believe in Christian. They're like doing prayer services at the Pentagon.

You got to add, is that the last one where we got one more? Yeah, and then obviously this is what like the White House official X account, they're like consistently like tweeting actual Christian Bible verses on Easter. He is not here. He has risen just as he said, Matthew 286. Is that it, Trinity? Okay, yeah, yeah.

And then you got this last one. This was like an official press release from the first family. This Holy Week, Millennia and I join in prayer with Christians celebrating the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the living Son of God who conquered death, freed it from sin, and has unlocked the gates of heaven

for all of humanity. Like, bro, it's like, it's amazing. So I think you might put him in the category of God fear, where it's like, hey man, there's something true. There's clearly, like, believes in God, believes in not just a God, but the Christian God. But then you still got him going,

I don't think I'm going to make it in heaven. I want to talk about that here in a second. The reason, this is gone too long, so let me grab it, let me put a ball on this. The reason it's a big deal to have government leaders that acknowledge the reality of God, heaven, and therefore coming judgment. That's a big deal.

is because when you subtract God from a worldview or a society, the highest power left is the government. So in the absence of God, the government becomes God. And that's how you get like extremely terrible things throughout human history. So when the government starts to think, we're the highest power, government becomes God. That's how you get governments going, hey, we'll provide for you, we'll protect you, we'll decide what's right and wrong, we'll define things like gender and when life begins and what marriage is. Actually, we're the ones who give you rights. Your rights don't come from a creator.

They come from a government. By the way, if your rights come from a government, then the government can take them away. That's a bad idea. That's why you get governments like that need like mass surveillance. Well, God is omniscient and now we're God, so we need to be omniscient. That's why you get governments that very frankly, all of the governments that veer into heavy, ideological socialism, they're almost all secular, atheistic governments. Why? Because subtract God, the government becomes God. Well, God is omnipotent, so the government needs to be omnipotent now to control outcomes. So I just want to point this out, it's a big deal, which is interesting, because the same people that laugh at the idea of an all-powerful, all-good God, they think if the

government became all-powerful, it'd be all-good. So you can just see, this is why secularism is so dangerous because if there is no higher power over the government, there's no authority to which people can appeal if the government goes wrong. So it's a very, very good thing to have government leaders going, there is a big man upstairs and I need to try to do something to please him. If you don't believe that, just go Google the governments of Mao and Stalin and how many of their own people they killed. Just that's all I'll say is like what they did is unimaginably evil and it's because it was based on a form of government that didn't believe any God that could keep them accountable for what they did. Josh, I've heard you talk about Christian

nationalism and obviously, we- Bonus pod last week. That's right. That's right. By the way, go check it out. I've never, I haven't heard you say this before and that makes a lot of sense, man. If you have, you need a deity or a God at the top, do you want that to be the government or do you want it to be the creator? Do you want it to be God that, like you said, if something goes off, you can appeal to a higher authority. Yes. And that's actually like better. Bro, it's a big deal. It's infinitely better. It's a big deal if there is.

So here's the thing, man, this is not what I want to talk about here. But whenever you talk about Christian nationalism, what immediately people do is they're like, oh, you guys want a theocracy, big scary word of theocracy. First of all, I'll be like define what you mean about that. But honestly, in one sense, my response to that is every government is a theocracy. The question is who's Theo? For instance, in a secular democracy, the people are. theo, the people are God. It's just might make's right. Whatever the will of the people is,

if the majority of the people think slavery is fine, well, sorry, they're the, they're theo. And the nation is theocracy. And if more people want slavery than don't, well, there is no higher power above the people, so that's what we're going to do. You know, obviously in Islamic governments, Allah is the Theo. So the thing is, theocracy, well, every government's a You're just going, who's the God over the government? If we acknowledge there's a God over the government, then the question is, what's his name? What's his name? Because different gods will bequeath different rights.

So, yeah, to your point, it's a very, very, very, very big deal that a nation believes in, and the government believes in a higher power over the government. So there's an authority to which you can appeal to keep the government in check when they do unrighteous things. That's good. Right. That's good. Okay.

Now, actually, Trinity, I want you to start from very, beginning of the clip and we'll do the whole thing and then let's talk about it here you had talked a couple weeks ago you were doing an interview and you talked about how you hope to end the war and Ukraine because it might help you get into heaven how does how does this help does this help I mean you know I'm being a little cute I don't think there's anything going to get me in heaven okay I think I think I'm not maybe heaven bound I may be in heaven right now as we fly at Air Force one. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to make heaven, but I've made life a lot better for a lot of people. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, that's good. Man, bro, that's honestly like, you can, I feel like you can hear a little emotion in him, which is a little rare because he's a strong leader and he's a he also like he's a little tired too, man. I've tried like I've, I've, I've tried to do all these things, but I don't know that I'll be able to make it. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Okay, let me say a few things here, and then I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts. Number one, I do want to say he might be saved, and I want to talk about why I think that. You know, first of all, I've had been able to have some conversations with people who work directly with the president. And I do know from talking to those people, he has people around him who have four years been clearly sharing. the gospel with the president, like very, very clearly. So he does have that. I do know that after the assassination attempt, as would happen with most people who had a near death experience,

he had a significant moment of spiritual reflection in his life. And I do know that he prayed with someone in a very real way about his relationship with God. I do know that. I also know, and this is public, knowledge. After that, it's kind of interesting. At Merilago, he put a bunch of angels. I think it was a painting on the ceiling of some of the rooms in Marilago. And then right now, I think if you go in the Oval Office, if I understand it correctly, there's like an angel that he put over the door

of the Oval Office because he's acknowledging, man, in some way, Providence, Heaven was looking after me there. And I do just want to say this. Like, that That's the kind of thing that a baby Christian who's also a billionaire would do. You know, it's like that. You know, I just, so, and I do know this. Do you guys, Trinney, did I send you that screenshot of where Carolyn Levitt, the White House press secretary? She was doing that. Do you see, no, not that one.

Actually, you can show that one. That's President Trump. That's somebody sent that to me personally. that was he asked so he asks for prayer from people who are around him apparently like very frequently but do you have the other one you don't have that one dang out of the incident too all right so here's all say on this is what you'll see is when president trump says stuff like he does in that clip what you immediately see is the reaction online is this a bunch of like theology nerds who you know have been in seminary for 50 years. They're like, see, he's not, this guy doesn't know anything. And he's,

and they jump all over it. As a pastor, it's like, what people don't understand about President Trump is he talks about Christianity like a normal blue collar dude that didn't grow up around Christianity. So like, when he says stuff, like, we're trying to save Christianity. And people jump all over him. He's, he's talking about, he's just talking like a normal dude that, You know, he didn't go to Southern Seminary. Yeah. He hasn't read Herman Bavink. You know, it's like he's a force of nature, a leader that's been building stuff and leading the country and that kind of thing.

So it's like the reason I say that is I just want a caveat, like when I'm in the lobby and I'm praying with normal blue collar dudes that didn't grow up around Christianity to get saved, like they're saying the F word and they're saying the F word and they're saying. salvation prayer. Like actually, that's a real thing. There are people that our mesquite campus are putting weed in the offering basket. And, and, you know, the theology nerd online would be like, oh, look at these degenerate. They're clearly not saved. Honestly, I think the Lord is so pleased. I think he's gone, man, in the way that they know how, with their best understanding, they're trying to honor me. And so I do just want to point out, like, You know, like your grandpa that fought in Vietnam and lives on an IV, a Bud Light, and he thinks dip is a food group. Like, when that guy gets saved, he doesn't start singing BeVow My Vision in his quiet time and, you know, quoting John Calvin.

Yeah. Like, he's still going to have some kinks to get worked out. Sometimes the example I'll give him this one, there's just an old show called The Biggest Loser, where people would start out the show weighing a lot of weight. I mean, it was like five, six hundred pounds sometimes. And I began to think, what happened if I actually tuned into the show in the middle of their transformation? And I would be like, oh, man, there's all these people that weigh three or four hundred pounds. Oh, my goodness, they're so unhealthy. They need to get their act together and get in shape.

And what I don't actually realize is I am stepping into the middle of their transformation story. And yes, they have a long way to go. But also, I don't actually am aware of maybe how far God has brought them. You should have seen him before. Yeah, you should have seen him before. So I just, it just, we should be very careful not to make snap judgments when actually I might have caught someone in the middle of their transformation story. That's exactly right. So just be a little bit to be a little careful.

Sorry, keep going. Just wanted to. No, that's a good point, man. So here's what I will say. Let me tell you why if he's not saved, why I actually have a lot of hope. I think, I believe he, I believe he will be. Here's what I'm going to say this. Because when you read your New Testament, the first step to getting into heaven is admitting you can't.

And in fact, when you read the, you read the. the New Testament, I'm not sure you read about anybody in the New Testament who gets to the point of clear admission, I am not worthy to be accepted by the Father that doesn't eventually make it to the Father through Christ. So the analogy for this is obviously Jesus tells the parable of the Pharisee and tax collector. And the Pharisee, the religious dude walks up and he's real proud and he's like real close to the altar. And God, thank you that I'm not like all these people. the tax collector can't get his act together, and I tie the tent to my mint deal and cumin, and I pray the prayers, and I observe the Sabbath, and he's listening to his accomplishments about,

he's really awesome, and he deserves to get it to heaven. And then the tax collector, big sinner, walks up, and he won't even look at the altar. He falls on his knees, tears his shirt in half, which was a sign of, you know, degradation. And he just, he can't pray a prayer. He just says, you know, God be merciful to me a sinner. In other words, he's admitting, I don't deserve it. And Jesus says, I tell you this man rather than the first went home justified. Now, here's why when I watch that clip, I'm like, if he's not saved, I'm really hopeful the Lord's going to save that man.

Because if you know anything about that guy and you've been paying attention, I've never before, ever seen him admit anything he can't do. that's the first clip I've ever seen where here he is for the first time in his life going there's one thing I've realized I can't do I can't get into heaven on my own so Jesus remember what Jesus said Jesus said unless you become like one of these little children you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven and when he said that some people think oh that means you got to be innocent like little kids well if you say you never had little kids little kids are not innocent when Jesus said that he was wasn't talking about innocence, he was talking about dependence. Jesus, what he was saying is, hey, it's not that good people are in and bad people are out. And it's not that religious people are in and irreligious people are out. He was saying, it's the humble that are in and the proud that are out. Kids are the ones that they just run up to their dad, and they're just like, dad, like, can I have something? Because they know that when they ask, their dad's going to say yes.

So when I see that clip, I'm like, the man who has otherworldly confidence he can do anything has discovered the one thing he cannot do on his own. And what I would say to that is you are not far from the kingdom of God. Thoughts? Yeah, man, I think, you know, Ephesus chapter 2, verse 8 to 9, for it is by grace, you have been saved. You not about this in a sermon. It is through faith, and this is not from yourself. It is a gift of God, a good father.

by work so that no one can boast. I think it's the the final words of the Buddha were strive on with diligence. Before he died, he said, hey, before I go, this is what you need to know. Like keep trying, basically. Like keep working on it. The final words of Jesus on the cross, it is finished. I think, as I've been sitting here listening, you know, it's interesting because I said people will judge him for these comments. But actually, he's reflecting what a large portion of the America and actually large portion of evangelicals believe. 48% of Americans believe that by doing enough good works, you can get into heaven. 41% of evangelicals.

And so I know that's a loaded term, but basically people who go to church is like late point, believe that if you do enough, you can get into heaven. And so if you're listening, that's you, I'm going to, if I had a time with Donald Trump, here's what I would tell him, and therefore here's what I would tell you, is that actually, if I was at President Trump, like, I think the problem is you, you actually don't understand just how serious your sin is and how. bad of a situation you're in. But I'm like you, you, Donald, President Trump would be a unique situation to understand it about, man, the seriousness of our sin is related to the

seriousness of who our sin is against. And so like if I commit assault, like right now if we got in a fight and I got charged with assault with one of you guys, man, maybe spend a few weeks or a few months in prison and pay a small fine. But if I went up and I punched President Trump in the face, I'm probably going to have a ticket to Guantanamo Bay. You can get a bullet in your head. I'm going to be much worse. You might go to El Salvador person as well. Yeah. That's right.

Oh, goodness. Well, let me get back. So what changed was not the nature of what I did. What changed was the nature of who I did it against. And so when we sin against an infinite God, our sin is infinitely serious. And there's an infinite gap between us and God. And there is no amount of good works that I can do to ever bridge that infinite gap. That's the bad news.

But here's the good news is that God has, done, everything came to bridge that infinite gap with us. That God himself came down in flesh as Jesus Christ. He lived the perfect life we cannot live. So everywhere you have failed, if you're listening to this, Donald, President Trump, if he was listening to this, everywhere you have felt Jesus succeeded. And also wherever you failed, Jesus went to the cross,

and he bore the punishment for those sins so that he could reconcile you with himself. And then he was raised from the grave so that he could give life to all who would believe. And so the bad news is really bad, but it also what makes the good news so good, is that even though there's an infinite gap between us and God because we've committed sins that are infinitely offensive against him,

he has bridged that through his son, Jesus Christ. And then we can't unsin, but we can repent. And if we will repent and place our faith in Jesus alone to save us, he is faithful and just him, will save us and forgive us. Bro, here's what I got in my heart is what if he does that? He trusts you. What if President Trump trusts Jesus becomes the first president that I'm aware of in United States history to be converted while he's in office.

And can you imagine, like, him getting baptized on the South lawn? Like, can you imagine if our nation watched their leader humble himself before the living God, give his life to Christ, and have a nationally public baptism? That'd be amazing. Bro. Come on. Do it again, Lord. Amen.

Amen. Well, hey, we have Rich Froning coming up in just a second. Push up. Stay tuned. Well, hey, before we jump back in, I want to take a quick moment to tell you about something close to our heart here at Lake Point. It is something we call our annual missions offering.

Every fall, we set aside a season of radical generosity where 100% of what's given goes straight to missions. And this goes to help plant churches in some of America's hardest-to-reach cities, strengthening local churches around the world, meeting needs in our own communities, and even sending students to camp to encounter Jesus. And so here's what you need to know. Your giving fuels real stories of life change.

And so to be a part of spreading God's love farther and faster than ever, text the word give to 20411 or visit lakepoint.com slash give a.m.O. Well, hey, live free family, together, let's make this a season where our generosity moves the mission of Christ forward. with Rich Froning. What's up, Rich? What's up? So can we just continue the conversation we're having? Yeah, just a second.

What were you saying? Wait. I'm smaller than I look. No, smaller than you thought. We're here with Rich Froning, who Carlos says is not that big. That's what I said before I met him in person. One. No, but we were talking.

Wait, wait, stop talking for a second. I'm sorry, just a second. I need to explain. As professional athletes go, I'm in a ball. Exactly. There you go. 5-9. But that's not what I was saying, 192 pounds.

I wasn't referring to your height. Okay. I was mostly just talking about like, you know, just kind of bigness. Yeah. Because you've done CrossFit before. Wait, wait, hang on. Let me hit pause. For people who don't know who we're talking to right now. Let me explain. So this is Rich frowning. So for our church knows this, there was like two years, Rich and I told you before. Yeah, yeah. There's like two years we're like, yeah.

I dabbled in CrossFit. I like it. Rich, can I tell you my CrossFit joke? What you got? My CrossFit joke is, how can you tell somebody does CrossFit? They're going to tell you. I know. It's so many of them. Because it's true.

Don't worry, they'll tell you. It's true. Hey, hey, Carlos. It's almost like vegans, vegetarians, same thing, right? Carlos, I'll do another one. Carlos, do you know how to tell somebody who drives Tesla? They're going to let you know it.

Don't worry, they'll tell you. It's true. It's true. Carlos has got Tesla. I just finished Elon's book. Oh, the biography? The one, the biography that he approved. The Masterson?

Isaacson. Isaacson. It was interesting. I'm a big biography. I have a weird American. I have a weird American history. And so I'm a presidential biographies. I'm up to Grant.

And I took a hiatus. I didn't know anything about Elon. And then this last election cycle, I was like, I got to know. What is the deal? And I didn't know any of it. So I finished that book. Dude, I just hijacked. It was great.

It was great. Dude is next level, right? The genius. Genius and loves to thrive. He thrives during chaos, right? Yes. And surges is what he calls it. That's what he calls it.

He calls it a surge. Well, that's what everybody outside of it calls it. where he's just like, okay, we're going to launch this rocket in two months. And he'll walk in and be like, we're going to do it in three days. Yeah. And people are like, that's not possible. He's like, we're going to make it possible. Carlos, I'm going to start running the church like that.

Do you not do that already? Oh, Brad, do I do that? No, no, no, no, no. I don't think I do that. Absolutely not. Hey. So, wait, wait, let me. Yeah, I can get through the intro.

So here's what we're doing. Obviously, we started the sermon series run to win this week. And like, here's what I like, the whole tag of the series, Rich we're doing. The whole tag of the series is this passage from 1 Corinthians 9. It's like, hey man, everybody runs, but some people run so as to win the prize. And then it's like, hey, man, that's how we should, that's how a man of God and woman of God approach following Jesus, their discipleship. So I'll shoot you really straight. One of the great things about having a podcast is I can use it to just hang out with people I've always wanted to hang out with. So if people,

for people who don't know, Rich has won CrossFit Games, world's fittest man, one individual four times. Yeah, one in the CrossFit games four times as an individual. But then one team, six times. Then when there's two second places in there, we don't, they don't really talk about anymore. If somebody wants, well, I don't have the clip and I'm not going to make you relive it. But if somebody wants to have their heart ripped out, just go YouTube search, Rich Fronning 2010. Is that the YouTube search? My kids still ask me about it. My kids, it's a PE teacher I went to college with, and they were climbing the cargo net. And Lakeland, my oldest, she's now 11. She was probably seven at the time, walks home, comes home. She goes,

Um, dad, coach Amy told me to ask you about climbing a rope. I was like, you. That's savage. Yeah. But we're a good friend. So it was acceptable. Oh, okay. It's, I, man, I wouldn't be where I am.

Wouldn't be the man I am today without that instance. So not off limits whatsoever. But yes, I got second because my dad, we had a rope in the barn, uh, growing up. We, I grew up not on a farm, like a working farm, but we had chores made up chores that my parents would make us do that I hated now appreciate. But we had a rope in the barn and I'd try to. climate using my feet you know my dad's like don't do that that's for cissies you know and turns out kind of need those after 14 events through the coaching games. Do you know what he's talking about

Carlos? Yeah I saw the video. So for people who don't know you really should should go YouTube search that how many views does it have do you know? It's got to be a couple of million or a million it's over a million. Yeah. So that it's a fall and we don't have to get into this. We want to talk about Jesus real quick but the uh you were if tell me if I getting this wrong you were essentially running away. I had, I would have, if I would have, or at least placed decent enough in this event, I could have won. I lost by three points, which is three places throughout the whole weekend. Yeah. Back then, it was similar to golf opposite, but similar.

Like, if you finish first, you got one point, two, two points. And so three places through the whole weekend is where I ended up losing this. So all he had, I mean, I don't want to, I'm not wrong. I'm not wrong. Hey, I mean, but here's the deal is like, that set me on the road I am today. I wouldn't be, I wouldn't have followed. Jesus as close as I do. Now, like, that made me realize that earthly things only get you so far, right?

And so, and, you know, I call it God put the right people in my path after that happened. You know, to me, that was a dark time. And I, like, you know, growing up, we talked a little bit about this, but, you know, playing baseball, I played a little bit of, I played high school baseball, was going to play in college, went to college, end up coming home after I got into college baseball, had a girlfriend back home. And I was just like, nah, what came back, worked in a factory. talked about flag football out there, did that for a while, was a firefighter for a while,

and then did CrossFit. So I'd, you know, all these things were, you know, what I would say were my identity at the time. And then to have those things, like, you don't think you're doing it in the moment. You know, I grew up in a faith background. Catholic, right? Catholic. My mom's side is Catholic. My dad's side was Catholic as well. Very strong female leadership or female faith influences. And so, yeah, I was in the Bible doing those things, but it wasn't like a, you know, I just actually had this realization a couple months ago of like, I, my dad is now super strong in his faith and we'll talk about it, but dudes were just different then, right? You just didn't talk about that. My grandpa went to the church and

was a part of the Catholic church, but we didn't, I never had like male faith, um, influences. And so. By the way, that's very common. It really is. And I didn't think about it until as recently. And so backing up, though, all my, my, my, my, life I was you know trying to please people by whatever I was doing and then CrossFit games comes along and I'm like sweet I'm good at this let's do it and then I get second and it was a complete failure to me and and it was a good time I had a good you know good group of dudes that were like hey you should look at you know let's do a men's Bible study and we did it in Romans and man it changed my life that was after the 2010 thing that was after 2010 so

again if you go search it he's essentially all Basically, if you climb that rope, easy win. Yeah, if I make at least I finished, I think a round, I think if I finished two rounds, which would have been six rope climbs that have been over. Yeah. But then one next year. One the next year and the next three after that.

That's right. I definitely throw that in. And you've got 10 on your belt, basically. Yeah, four and six. Four and six. Four and six. Four and six. Four individual and then 16.

Once I had my first daughter, I was like, man, I can't serve two masters. Like, I'm obsessed. And I was doing it for the right reasons. 100% like I wanted to compete to glorify God. But then once I had my daughter, I was like, man, I can't obsess with what I'm doing and be a good father. And so that's when I step by. Well, so I started following you like back when I was dabbling. And so to this day, I told you this earlier. When I go to a hotel sometimes and I'm like, dude, I want a quick workout. Quick workout, which by the way, I've read you don't like long workouts.

I've gotten better because now that we hunt a lot, like I've started adding in some of those like just kind of grindy slow type workouts just to, you know, be ready for the mountains. But no, I used to hate them. I was a very heavy. Well, I'll still pull up some of your like just body weight workouts. Anyway, I started following you way back then and then started getting some of the YouTube stuff. Then followed you on Instagram. By the way, I love the way you use your account.

I want to talk about it in a second. And then we just, I don't know. Somehow it was like either. I saw a post of yours or you saw one of mine. I saw one of your clips. And I was like, man, just I don't know why. I was like, just like what you're preaching here. we need more of it, you know, like not shying away from controversy because, hey, well,

that Bible is for everybody at times. It shouldn't divide, but it does. And people shy away from that. And, man, I think I was just giving you some encouragement. That's right. Yeah. And so. Well, it was like, cool because it's like this guy that I had been following for a while. And I was, oh, man, the dude took the time to encourage me. It blessed me, man. Yeah, man. So I want to talk about a few things. Number one, man, I just want a little fun trip down memory lane here. here. Trinney, can you, we got, so again, we're introducing people to Rich Fronning. So go ahead and toss one of those pictures up there. Oh, no. You know, you've seen that guy? Yeah. I'm positive. He's a descendant of an alien race.

His true or false? I would assume false, but I don't really know, you know. And then this is a good one. Oh, yeah, my wife is a big Ryan Gosling. He loved this. And then the first time I snatched 300 pounds. This is why my wife's incredible. She was like, why? Why do you need to put that much weight over your head? I'm like, I guess that's why we're together because she could care. She don't care.

Hey, I'll just encourage every husband. Like, man, Rich Froning's wife thinks Ryan Gosling is. I mean, Liz, what do I have? She loves the notebook. That's her, like, that was her guilty pleasure when we first, she loves the notebook. And I'm just like, yeah, if you're a bird on. Did you ask somebody to do that, me? Deleted scene from the walking.

That event was Yeah, that's called the triple threes and I still catch flack for walking on that event. Oh, so you were literally walking. That's how to mean. I was overheated. Yeah, it was not good.

It was not good. Yeah, I was barely alive. And this is my favorite one. Man, look at that little high... What is that thing right there? You got a little soul patch. Yeah, man. It was pre-testosterone, you know?

Pre-puberty. Yeah, heck yeah, man. That was 100 and probably, I think it was 150 pounds at that time. Look at that baby face. Babyface. You play it baseball days. Middle infield, yeah.

All right. The record rates, how much of your way now? About 195-ish. My weight doesn't fluctuate a ton. I even, I did Leadville the last two years, a hundred-mile mountain bike race. Oh, me too. Me too. It's fun.

You like mountain biking? At altitude, it's different fun. Yeah, you just walked out there. Every weekend. It was terrible. I actually, I didn't lose as much weight as you would think. You know, I only got down to maybe 188, 180, something like that. So, man, my body just likes this weight.

You know, all right. Well, you know, just to tease it, me, me, at least me and Rich, and I may make Carlos, we're going to do a little push-up competition. And I'm not joking in a few minutes. I'm just worried. We'll see what happens. But I do want to talk about this, Rich, just to help some of the, you know, people aren't shirts, but especially dudes, but everybody. So let me just like start. What's this, what's the short snapshot of like, because I watched your sort of like evolution toward, like very open about your faith. You are very, like, you leverage your platform for the glory. got of the message of gospel. Tell me the, like, tell me the quick story and then why you do that. Yeah. I think quick story, I mean, it is what I feel. I kind of gave you the high level. I grew up in a super strong faith family. Like, we went to church regularly, you know, Catholic Church, Presbyterian Church, Baptist Church. I would say I was saved, made that decision when I was 13, but didn't live, you know, like if I went to, I read my Bible a lot, but it was like, What applies to my situation? Santa Claus God.

Lack of better terms. And so had that big failure, what I would call failure. Other people would be like, you got second place chill out, dude. But growing up, I was one of 25 first cousins or 25 boys on my mom's side, 32 of us. And even the girls were super fit and athletic. And everything was a competition. It's just what I grew up in. And I loved competition, right?

That's just who I was and who I am. And so to have that thing kind of taken and it just made me realize how fleeting earthly things are. And so luckily had a really good friend Chip Pew, Donovan Negree, and just, you know, started kind of loving on me. And like, we did a Roman study. And I was like, man, let me go back and read like from Matthew on, right? And just read it straight through. And man, it just kind of opened my eyes. I'm like, man, I'm not living how Jesus calls us to live.

And so that's when I got baptized again. I was baptized in the Catholic Church when I was like... Infant? Yeah, what, three months old, something like that. Do you mind me asking? Yeah. Because first of all, right decision. Yeah.

But what was your thought process behind? I'm getting baptized again. I wanted to make the decision. I feel like Jesus made the decision at 30. I want to make that decision for myself. I had a couple family members that were a little upset with that. And I was just like, that's what I feel like I'm called to do. I'm going to do it.

And so that's when I got the tattoo, Galatian 614. man, never boast in anything except for the cross of Lord Jesus Christ, which has been crucified to me and out of the world. You know, it was just, it's a constant reminder of like, it doesn't matter what you do. Like, it's about him and don't get, and man, it's such a, it's something that happens, right? Like, especially with the professional I'm in, you're always constantly, like, you know, there's this people, there's always eyes on you. You're always being compared to so and so or whatever.

Man, it doesn't matter, right? And I also hate the fact of people that are like, oh, you're a Christian, you know, is competition, you know, it makes you soft. And I'm like, man, I'm still just the intensity of anger is still there as much, but it doesn't last as long. That's what I tell people. I'm like, I realize once I come down off the emotion, because we're all emotional, and I come off that emotion, man, that I'm like, all right, I'm okay. My identity is not in what just happened. and I can let go of it and some things better than others. You know, I'm still, man, and that's why in that book, David, man, I connect with David so much

because I want to be a man after God's own heart and I'm going to screw it up, but I'm going to come back, right? And I try to come back. And, man, there's a series, I don't know if you've ever read them, Day of War, read them, Day of War. Who is it? It's Cliff Graham and he took David's story and his men, and it's historical fiction, but, dude, you talk about speak to a man's heart. They're incredible.

Day of war. day of war. And he actually just re-released him. But man, those books, I read those. And I, after all that, I read in 2011, I just started reading in First Samuel. And I was like, man, this is awesome. Like I just, you know, I was like through the New Testament, I was like, let me go back to some old testament stuff. And I, for some reason, started First Samuel. Well, that guy like literally looks like you. So make sure you get the newer edition. So that's the one in the top, your top left. That guy. But that's the top left. That's the new edition. So that,

The original one starts with Benaya in the pit and fighting, and then he connects with David. But the new one... Is that the in a pit with the line on Snowy-A-A-Gy guy? That's the different guy, but Benaya is the guy that fought the line in the pit. And so the new version, he kind of blends it because there's supposed to be a five-book series.

He's written three of them. And he, like, blends it in to where Abby Ather is talking to Samuel, or not Samuel, to Solomon, about, hey, this is what. what happened to your dad, let me tell you this story. You need to come back to God. And it's awesome. It's pretty cool. And he's like, hey, it's historical fiction. He's like, I've taken the liberty. I've studied a lot of the era. He's like, yeah, he's like, go back to the Bible for this stuff. But this is how, and he's an ex-military guy. He's good. He's good. I listened to, and we were talking about Leadville. I listened. I've read that book probably four times. I actually started

the new version on the way here. And I listened to that whole book for the eight and a half hours I did lead bill two years ago. So that's awesome. It's good. So these guys take you through this Romans Bible study. This is like right after this big failure. Yep. Well, quote unquote failure. Failure in your eyes. And then like, you know, just like practical, nitigrant. Like what changes did you start making? Yeah. I think it was, you know, actually instead of just, you know, going to where I needed to go, like actually picking up my Bible for a purpose, like, hey, let me read the story. Let me talk to other people about it see what their perspective, get different perspectives, dive into it versus just like, oh, let me take this verse. That didn't work for me today. I'm going to do something else.

You know, like, I think it's continually coming back to that thing. I know, you know, I'm, I get in really good rhythms, like if I'm on a schedule, but of school and those types of things, I'm in the word every single day and vacation and those, you know, something happens. Kids are in the car. I can't listen or do whatever I'm doing. I'm like, I'd miss a day or two. And I'm like, oh, that makes a big difference. I feel that. So it's, uh, it's, it's palpable. It's real. Like I can feel a difference when I'm not in it. Bro, I got a theory on this. A lot of the best disciples I've seen are also incredible athletes. And I have a theory on this that goes to this passage. So I'm going to come back to it. But I'm going to come back to that. All right. So you started doing this and yeah. So just getting in a

rhythm and then and talking to other people that, man, I, one thing I know is that if you surround yourself with people that know more than you, it's going to help you out. And so, like, I surrounded myself with some dudes that I knew knew the Bible and I still do that. Like, we do a podcast into the storm. And we've listened to a few episodes. And we've got a guy that he's next level. Like, my brain can't, like, I'm not on that level.

What is that guy's dominant? Dom is his name. But he's, he's awesome. We got a bunch of good dudes around there that, like, our four pillars at Mayhem are faith family fitness service. And when we say faith, I'm talking about Jesus. I'm not just saying, you know, faith, right? And so I'm not afraid to say that.

You know, I think it's something that we're missing. And it's coming around in society. It's cool to see. Dude, tight is turning. I know. You keep us in the tide is turning. And you see it, man. You see it in, you know, younger people coming up.

You see it in mainstream places. And so it's awesome. Yeah. Do people think that's weird, Rich? Because obviously you're super outspoken about your faith. but you're also in different secular spaces. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think early on it was a little bit weird

and it was a little bit more timid to talk about it because, man, and I'm still, like, I'm not a Bible scholar. Like, when you start talking about First Corinthians, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's Paul, Paul, right into the Corinthians and I know a lot of the, and it comes to me, but if I'm like, quote you a passage, it's not going to happen. I just, that's not how my brain operates. But I know now, like, it especially in the last couple months, too,

I've got a group of guys that we do a virtual Bible study. So it's just a men's, you know, we go through. through. Because you're traveling. We use the app through the word. Well, we're just all in different places. Yeah. And through the word and we'll, you know, listen to 10, 15 minute kind of discussion about it. And then the verse. And then we have our own group, group me that we kind of discuss and talk about. So like right now, we're through James. So it's like a 15, 10, 15 minute like explanation of the passage. Exactly. Because my brain, you know, I'll read something. I'm like, what is that? What does that mean? And so it's pretty cool. It's called Through the Word. Simple. Real good app.

You know, I'll listen to it with the kids on the way to the school in the mornings. At sometimes I have to turn it off because I'm like, you guys are fighting too much and I can't hear it. You know, like some days they're all in. Some days they're not, you know? Like, it's kids. Yeah, man. Sanctification. We got a disciple for those kids.

That's right. So let me make a segue here. So I'm going to talk and point a couple things out about this passage that we talked a little bit about this weekend. And then I'm going to dovetail it into this combo. And this is like, honestly, why I wanted you here. So one of the things, we built this whole series off of this passage in 1 Corinthians 9.

It says first Corinthians 924. and following. It says, do you not know that in a race all the runners run, only one gets the prize. Run in such a way

as to get the prize. By the way, that is probably very obviously where we got the series title, run to win. And, you know, I'm very much, from an athletic perspective,

I am not like rich, but from a mindset perspective, I am like rich. If I'm doing something, I want to win. I want to win the thing. That's just how, it's not wired.

That's literally what the verse says. Yeah, that's my point. Yeah. It's like, bro, like that's a thing, like it's literally right here. And, and what this is saying is, like, that energy is sometimes I do feel like, to your point, Rich, some people will try to disciple that out of Christians, especially Christian men. It's like, don't, don't disciple it out.

Yeah, yeah, they'll do that thing. Yeah, no, don't disciple that out. Redirect it. Take that exact same energy, which is, by the way, some of the best disciples you'll meet are also great athletes. That's why. Take that exact same energy. channel it towards the purposes and glory of God. So then the passage goes on and says this. Everybody who runs in the games goes in a strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last. We do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore, I do not run like someone running aimlessly. I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified

for the prize. So let me just explain something real quick because this is again where the whole series comes from and then I'm going to come back to you rich. So and you may know this. This is a little fun. We'll do this real quick. So this, can you go ahead and toss that other picture from Corinth up on the screen? So Carlos knows, so earlier this year, early this year, we got to, we took a little journey of Paul trip over there. And bro is amazing. Have you done that? So I did not. I would Bro, you got to do it. So, hey, I'll make a suggestion, and I'm making it to Rich, and I'll make it to everybody here.

Do it as a rite of passage for your kids. So, like, when you have a kid that turns like, pick an age, we're picking 16 with Eliana. With our kids, when they turn 16, either we do Journey of Paul or they go to Israel for the steps of Jesus. Because, bro, when you finish one of those things, I've never been either. Dude, it's going to blow your mind.

When you finish one of those things, A, your Bible goes from black and white at color, But B, if there was anything in you that reads it and wonders, did this really happen? Right. That's gone. I mean, it's gone. So, like, and here, this is a good example. So, like, obviously, Rich just, he nailed. This is Corinth.

This is Corinth. So, First Corinthians was written, obviously, the church of Corinth. So this passage right here, it talks about, you know, you get the run, it talks about the games, people running for the ground. There's two times. there's two different passages. Let me make sure I can get them right here. Bima seat of Christ. Yeah, Romans 1410 and 2nd Corinthians 510.

They both mention, they call it the Bema seat is the Greek language. The Bema seat. And so, dude, this is actually amazing. So rich CrossFit games guy. First century, Rome, the second largest competitive athletic games, only to the Olympics happened right outside of Corinth, right on this little isthmus. So they would gather in Corn.

do these massive games, all the best athletes from all over the Roman Empire come to this spot. So then they all compete in all these games. When they're done, like we know from Josephus and other Roman historians, they would come to this thing called the Bima seat. And that was where all the judges were, and they would hand out rewards based on performances. All right. So this is amazing, dude. So you read about this in these two passages, Second Corinthians 510, Romans 1410.

and it specifically references this BMA seat. They compete for it. That's it. That's crazy. That's literally the exact seat that the apostle. And so here's what is cool about this. A, we know that's where the athletes came and they stood like, you see that little, I'm a hop off camera real quick. You see that thing right there?

Yep. They put that thing right where the athletes would stand in the first century and then the judges were up there and then they gave them all the, you got like a $500 gift card to. Under Armour that I couldn't use that was the year I got second got second yeah yeah yeah

it's great so that's where you would have gotten your gift for it's great I got silver metal that I don't know where it is either

okay yeah that's great so that's where they got that but dude here's what this is a blow your mind one so we know if you go read

Acts 18 there's all this all this fuss that happens Paul almost gets you know killed in Corinth so in Acts 18 and then it says

that he stands trial before a guy named Gallio this X 18 you go read it tonight it'd be fun like he literally Gallio was right there

the apostle Paul in the flesh stood right on top of that thing and that's exactly where he had that trial with Gallio like literally right there so let's go back to this passage

in 1st Corinthians 9 so when Paul people if you wonder why did Paul when he's writing to the Corinthians that's really the only church that he does this whole run in such a way as to

He does, that's why. Because they were like, they knew that. Yeah, they were seeing all these games. So they had seen the rich fronings of Rome. That's right. Stand right there and a judge would be like, hey, man, you should learn to climb a rope with your feet.

That's a joke. That's a joke. That's a joke. And they had stood right there and seen it. And by the way, no disrespect. I hope that didn't come off poorly. Dude, I promise you. It does not buy.

I make the joke. We're different. It's okay in the push of competition. Yeah. There we go. Yeah, yeah, you're good. You'll embarrass me later. But they had seen the judges right there hand out the rewards.

So then when it talks in this thing, hey, they do it to get a crown that will not last. What Joseph is in the Roman historians say is so athletes stands right there and whoever, whoever placed first in the competition, whatever the event was, they would give them a little, it was interesting. It was either made out of celery or pine. That's a fun little Bible fact. and they put it on their, they put it on their head there. So then, this is really fun. Then you fast forward to the book of Revelation, and it talks about how, man, they will cast their crowns before the,

so that's why Paul's going, I want you to try to run to get a crown that's going to last forever. Revelation is doing a throwback, and essentially it's going, hey, man, someday, this kind of thing, I get emotional thing, someday every man and every woman who has bent their knee to the Lordship of Jesus, will stand before something exactly like that.

The Lord Jesus will be seated upon it, and he will be handing out rewards for how you leveraged your life for the things that actually matter. Right there. Right there. Wow. Right there, dude. It's crazy. So here's what the reason rich that I was like, man,

I think it'd be like, A, it'd be cool, you know, to hang, but B, I just think it'd be cool is like, this passage makes it clear there are extreme parallels between discipleship and athletics. That's why I'll read it one more time, and then I'm going to ask you what parallels you see between athletic competition

and discipleship and life of the glory God. So I'll read it one more time because it makes this very clear implication. So listen real close. It says, run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. Rich Froning did not become the four-time CrossFit champion in the world without strict training.

They do it to get a crown that will not last. We do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore, I do not run like someone running aimlessly. I do not fight like a boxer beating in the air. Instead, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave. So after I appreciate others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. So, Richard, I am curious, like, as you watch what parallels, are there parallels that you say, see like man discipleship athletic performance i think 100% i mean obviously consistency in anything what what i had to be obsessed right then we talked about that earlier to win to be the best in the world anything that's got to be your singular focus yes what needs to be our singular focus what's our what's our nutrition what's our training and then our competition is life you know

like how do we live that out and how do we take that word and live it out I mean, there's so many parallels, but I mean, that's the major thing right there. The stuff that strikes me, and you could probably add color to it, is like, one, the consistency. So, I mean, it talks about strict training. Yep. You know, I think Rich probably knows this about a thousand times better than me. But it's like, man, the guy that goes out and works out really, really hard once every three weeks, it's like, consistency will always be. beat intensity.

Two, you know, people do not rise to the level of their goals. They fall to the level of their habits. So it's like, it just really strikes me. That's what I said, man, a lot of the best disciples or best athletes end up being good disciples because it's like, those are men and women who know, they know how to develop a habit that matters and do it. I also think this is really interesting, as he talks. and hear about like, hey, man, I don't run aimlessly.

It's, you know, it's that thing of, like, um, succeeding at things that don't matter is the worst kind of failure. Hmm. You know, so I think that's there. I don't know. Yeah, he's got that singular focus. He's got that what he's aiming for. I'm not a huge goals guy.

Like, I'm, I don't know. What do you mean by that? Like, I don't have like a, oh, you know, my goal this week is to like, uh, you know, get X in of like, if I'm talking fitness goals. I'm not trying to like, um, you know, lift a certain weight, whatever. Like my goal was to win the CrossFit games. I need a target.

I need something out there to chase or something to go after. So like, you know, the last, I competed for, what was that, 12, 13 years in CrossFit. And when I got done, I was like, I got to have something else. Because, man, there's in, it would be one of the kings where it's like at a time when kings usually go out to war. Yeah, David. And so you're like, I've got to, I need to have something to chase or something. something to focus on, not necessarily a goal. Like I need a physical goal, I need a spiritual goal, whatever, but like I need something to aim at constantly or else, what am I doing,

right? You know, like it's just, it's just, there's nothing, nothing to aim at. There's nothing, why am I doing it, right? Dude, there's like, in my, in my experience, there's like, there's nothing more dangerous than a bored man. Bored. You get a bored man, because that energy is going to go somewhere is that one of my there's a bible teacher i love that says men are like trucks they drive better with a load yeah it's just like man if you don't got a load on you you know you try it's so hard you know because in the the day in culture that we live in and you know mental health but man if you're in that thing and you know what you're supposed to do as a man like i welcome like i need not chaos right but i need i want people to like be able to rely on me and and i need that from

my kids like i want them to want if i want my wife to want And so I'm like, I welcome it, right? You know, there are times where you're like, man, tough. But that's what we're supposed to do. It's what we're built for. It's interesting, Rich, because you mentioned that. And I think when you look at like, you know, our culture in general, I think people want to pursue comfort.

And obviously, one, that's not what the Bible teaches. When it comes to Christianity, we are not called to pursue comfort. We're called to pursue Christ. But you're obviously an athlete that pursues, you could say, pain. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. profession. Like if anybody sees you training, pain.

I mean, if anybody sees you training, you do not seem comfortable. You, you're, it seems like you're experiencing lots of pain. We call it a secondhand enjoyment where you're like, this sucks in the moment. But at the end of it, you're like, man, I did something hard. And it was a good mental check. So I want to ask you about that because obviously. That's a Bible word. That is James counted all joy of my brothers when you face trials in many kinds

because the testing of your faith will develop perseverance. Would you call it? You called it secondhand enjoyment. Secondhand enjoyment. I'm going to use that. It's like, hey, this thing's miserable. But I'm enjoying, I will enjoy what the outcome will be. That's why I think, go ahead.

No, you'll finish. I just want to say, that's what I think a lot of people don't understand. When you do that, they see you and you seem like you're in pain. And they were probably asking, why would you do that? Why would you want that even? Not just go through that. So we have, we have a bison farm too. So I've read this article.

Did you say you have a bison farm? Yeah, so we've got 30, about 30 plus out in the, out in the front. yard. That's awesome. And it started out as like, hey, we just want something to kids that we all have to take care of. Me and my best friend I grew up with a mile, mile from each other. We were both firefighters. And on his off days, he raised cattle. So when we got some property, I was like, I let's get cows. And then I started reading Stephen Ronello's American Buffalo. Next thing, you know, we got bison. But anyway, bison out west, when they see a storm coming, they turn around and face it. And so I read this article. And we came up with the tag. I hate motivational quotes, but this is kind of our like

tagline for it. So it's into the storm. I love it. I love it so much. You turn and you face it and you know that, hey, it's going to be rough, but one, you're going to get through it faster and two, you're going to get through it better. Because isn't that like, it's like that's the opposite of cows? Cows walk away and they get caught and then

you're in it for a while. So they stay in the storm longer. If you just turn around and head it off, you come through it better. And we all know that like, if something's given to us, we don't take care of it as well. We don't, if it's not earned, if it's not something we had to like, blood sweat and tears for, it's not as, it's not as rewarding. Like, you know, you can't say that, you know,

if somebody just off gives you, which, you know, gifts are great, but it's just something earned is way better than something given. And I think, well, you mentioned James. I mean, this is also, obviously, Paul in Romans chapter five, this is what he says, verse three, not only that, but we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance. And endurance produces character, and character produces hope. So it seems, it's like you're saying, man, when you're going through that training, your mentality is, man, I'm going through this because there's something I'm looking towards ahead. Something's on the other side. That's gain. And so obviously, you know, CrossFit produces muscle gain. Going through pain into the storm produces character gain and spiritual gain.

And, you know, and so there's a, it's a different mindset. Because I think, I do think even as Christian, sometimes we, now we want to play it safe. And I want to, I want to be comfortable. We don't want to run, but you're saying, no, no, you need to, I'm running towards the storm. And that's been something in, you know, as I've not competed at a high level in the last couple years, you know, when I, honestly, when the times where I was closest to God or in my, in the word, the most is when it would come time for competition or something was happening. So I'm like, man, how can I, how can I make sure that I'm doing and in the word when times are good, right? When it's easy, when things are good, you're like, oh, thanks God, but, you know, I'm not going to,

you know, whatever, but on those times when you need something. So I'm like, how do I have the same passion, the same drive for that when things are good? And so that's like a thing that I tried to, you know, I, you know, Faith Family Fitness are my three, my three things that I, every day. And I'm like, all right, end of the day, how did I do in my faith? Did I read the word? Did I live it out? Did I, you know, do the things that I feel like Jesus is calling me to do?

Family, did I spend enough quality time with each, my wife, my three kids, you know, depending on what's going on? And then for me, selfishly, fitness is the easiest one for me to do. Like, if I don't work out on a day, I'm just, my wife has finally figured out. It's a bit of an addiction probably, but it's better off. If I just get, you know, get that fix out on a vacation or something, give me 30 minutes to go do something. And I'm more clear-headed. And so fitness is the easiest one.

But I try to at night, all right, how did you do in those three things? Short memory when you do good, short memory when you do bad, because you've got to stack some days, right? It's fantastic. It's tough, you know, like there's days and you've got to be as objective as possible. I'm like, hey, how did I do? You know, like, oh, man, I got a ton of, I got a ton of time in with Hillary. I got a ton of time in with Violet. Ah, did I, you know, like was Lakeland, you know, those are the times you're like,

how can I do better tomorrow, right? And when you do good, short memory because you want to stack good days. And when you do bad, hey, how can you do better tomorrow? But then short memory on that too. Bro, you know, it's interesting. So like, again, it's just like those mentality. Like, that's an athlete mentality. Yeah.

Markers. Yeah, dude. That's the exact same thing. like it's the, it's the, like it's a leadership axiom. You're doing it with athletics. I'm a leader. Yeah. And it's the leadership axiom.

Whatever's measured improves. There's literally an axiom. All you have to do to improve something is start measuring it and looking at the measurements. And I guarantee it will naturally gravitate towards improvement. So it's like, man, just going to the end of the day and going, okay, man, I got these three things that matter to me. Yep. I got Jesus.

I got my family. I got my body. Yep. Okay. Let me do a quick check in. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I think also in church world sometimes when it comes to, obviously we, there is a sense

in which those three things are different. Obviously, you know, family, faith, fitness. But in one sense, fitness is spiritual in a sense of like, as Christians, when you read the Bible, the Bible actually elevates the body, the physical body, way more than probably anybody else. And I think, you know, we don't, again, we don't think us when we work out or do work on our fitness, man, this is an act of worship. This is literally a verse in Romans says, chapter 12,

present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. So there's, again, it's like, it's a one thing when you work out. Man, that's a, man, I want to take care of my body because God gave me this body. And man, I want to use it for his glory. I'd say 90% of the time we listen to worship music when I work out. People are like, what are you doing? I'm just like, man, I'm in a better spot.

And honestly, some of the best times that like I've got a couple of bodies that will come when we work out in the barn, and we'll just blast a sermon. Like, there's been a couple times we've, we've done cardio. Like, I can't listen to a sermon if I've got to count something. But if I'm just sitting on a machine, like we've done several, like, hop on a machine, shoot a bow, like a little bit of zone two-ish type stuff. But, like, listening to a sermon, man, it's, it's, it's just cool. Hey, who do you listen to?

I've listened to you a couple times. Hey, man, you don't got to lie to me. No, I swear. That's where. When he's lifting heavy, he needs a Josh Hart's on the guy, right. Yeah, get hyped. No, you and then are. are my home pastor, Bobby Davis.

That's a good dude. That's awesome. Yeah, but yeah, yours is on there. That's amazing. I've got a couple buddies that now listen to you because we've done that while we're working out. That's amazing. That's awesome, dude. So tell me, because like this is what, this is what, it's just my respect level for you skyrocketed.

It's like, I started watching. You know, I first found you CrossFit stuff. And then I started a while. I follow you on Instagram. I check out the YouTube page. You know, originally I'm just looking for hotel workouts. But then I'm like, man, this guy's like, this guy's like very outspoken about his faith in Christ. He's very, it's like, tell me about like, and I'm saying this in a positive way, you are like 99.9 of the people listen to this podcast.

You're not a pastor. It's like, dude, I'm just, I'm a guy. I figure it out. In one sense, I'm a guy working a job. Yep. Like, in one, I'm a guy working a job. But then you're like finding intentional ways to leverage where you are and what you have for the glory of God. like tell me how do you approach it how do you think about it what works what doesn't work

you know for me i feel like uh relationship helps a ton um you can't be too preachy in what i do like i man i'm that's not where i'm that's not my spiritual gift is this the speaking of of it but i man if i've got miles with somebody i can be like hey just check this out or here's a book or you know like hey let's let's talk about whatever um man i'm just surrounded by a bunch of good dudes right that we all we're all broken right we all we all know that we need need Jesus and then man we've got some guys around that don't yet know they need Jesus but we'll we'll work on them a little bit and so man I just feel like that's uh that's where I'm called you know I feel like I've said it all along the talent that I was given or the gifts that I was given the genetic whatever

um my gift back was like tell as many people as I can about Jesus and so I've tried to you know live that and and when the opportunity comes up with it you know you don't want to ever you don't want to overdo it to where it turns people off. So that's, that's the hard part is finding that balance of like, you know, I always tell people I love Jesus by cuss a little bit, you know, like that shirt at times, I'm like, you know, depending on the crowd and what's going on, you know, I'm like, and you can relate to people differently like that. Right. I'm, I was a firefighter for several years, you know, and so it's, it's just, man, I just, I love Jesus and love what he's done for me and my family and I wouldn't be who I am.

I wouldn't have the family I have without him. Well, I'll, I'll, I'll, like, I'll brag on you more. First of all, like, what you just said is one of my, I love just telling people that, like, honestly, for most people, if they're just like genuine, authentic and in some way, they're willing to be public about their faith, what happens is a, like, a bunch people look at me, and they'd be like, I, either, I can't be like that guy, or very frankly, they're like, I don't want to be like that guy. That guy's weird or whatever. But what, happens is there's a bunch of people who look at you or look at the guys that listen to this and they're like, oh, why could be a Christian like that? Yeah. And that honestly is usually the

first penny that drops for somebody when they take a step towards faith. But you've also done stuff that like as far as trying to succeed at the things that matter, you start this nonprofit. I mean like you got some things. The adoption thing. Yep. Give me this. First of all, Rich and I discovered before this, we essentially have family. Our families are like nearly twin families. Yeah, pretty close. Give the quick synopsis of the adoption thing, why you did it. Man, we we did the whole infertility thing. My wife wrote a book, Blessed by Adoption. Anybody's, man, it's, if I could have read, read that before, before going through all that, it would have helped, helped me a lot. Blessed by adoption. Man, she's, she nailed it. It's got a little like, kind of her

story and then a little journal piece next to it, man. She's, she's, she crushed it with that. She's super. Toss that up like in post. She's super talented with, she doesn't write ever. But man, when you read this, you're like, and a lot of it was written by her. And I'm like, holy crap. Like I didn't know. And she won't do it. She won't write. Like she had a blog for a while. She did. But anyway, so she was going through this. We were, we were going through this. And no biological reason, you know, like can't really explain other than that wasn't the plan. Unexplained infertility. That's what we got. Yeah, that's what you said. And I mean, that's what we got. It's like, oh, you're good. She's pretty good. I mean, she had so little endometriosis, whatever. That's jam. But it's just like. Yeah. So she had that surgery. Didn't do anything. And so, you know, we did, I think I UI. We never did in vitro. And she was talking. And she's like, what about adoption? I'm like, ah, you know, I don't know if I'm ready yet. Blah. And then I was like, yeah, you know, I'm ready. It's got to be a girl first. I don't know why the heck I said that. You know, like, it's got, why does it have to be a girl. But anyway. It's good strategy.

Yeah, right. And so she was like, cool. Well, friend of a friend of a friend knew that we were going through this, knew somebody that was, man, and this, this gets me emotional. I was talking about this clinic. It used to be called the Crisis Pregnancy Clinic, but now they have to call it the Cookville Pregnancy Clinic because crisis, whatever. But anyway. Not PC? Not PC or whatever. And so this, the, Lakeland's birth mom went in to have an abortion. And this is not an abortion clinic. It's a Christ-centered. mom's clinic and they were like, you know, showed her heartbeat and all this. And she's like, oh, I can't do that. They saved her life. Saved her life. Saved my life, really.

And so this was my last CrossFit games. We're probably a month out. We found out she's due in two weeks. We have to get home study, all that junk, all this stuff, whatever. Two weeks before, we have Lakeland, July 7th, CrossFit Games, I think was on my birthday that year, the 21st. So two weeks old, we go to the CrossFit games. We have Lakeland.

So we have Lakeham for two and a half years. We had a couple like, you know, matched, unmatched, matched, matched type things happen. And just to watch her go through until I have the baby with me, it's not my baby. But to her, any misperiod, anything was, she's pregnant. That's right. And man, I couldn't watch it. And so she's like, one more, one more adoption. And I was like, I'm not watching you go through this.

She's like, you're going to sign this. I was like, yes, ma'am, I'll sign this. but this is the last one. So I signed this piece of paper, and it was through this lawyer. We found out that night we were 1 to 20. Wow. Four hours later, we found we were 1 to 5.

An hour later, we had to be in, we had to drive to Jacksonville, Florida, the next morning. Welcome to Adoption. And Trice was in the NICU. And so he was in the NICU for about 13 days, and I had to compete at regional. So I had to go home.

Hillary stayed in Jacksonville with her sister, came down and helped her and stayed with Trice, and Richard, the third. But if anybody knows Trice, that's his name's trice um and so uh he's he's a raccoon but um and so fast forward he's 10 months old and then Hillary stays in touch with the birth mom of Lakeland no real you know we're not against doing it again but gonna take some time we have a 10 month old trice was super easy baby um but i still remember the look on Hillary's face I'm sitting on the couch she walks in and she goes

she had another baby and can't keep her and asked if we would take her and I was like absolutely we will. And then I'm like, you know, all in. And then I start to like, can we, can we do this? Wait, what did I just say? And man, I, gosh, I can't imagine. And I had a buddy, good friend of mine, Jim Hensel was like, you'll never, you know, because I, I never once thought about, you know, rescinding. But I'm like, man, what are we going to do? Like playing this game in my head and, you know, three kids under the age of two and a half at this point, whatever. And he's like, you'll never regret taking that baby, but you'll regret forever not having it. Like, fact. All right. Makes sense. And dude, man, I can't imagine our life without violent. And so I've got three. Lakeland's now 11, which kind of the, there's a documentary on Netflix or something of kind of our whole process of the last year I competed.

And that whole story's in there with Lakeland, which is crazy to think she's 11, 11. And then Trice is now eight and Violet's seven. And so it's awesome. And you, like, you were well into your faith journey at that point. Oh, well into it. bro, did you have this moment? So like, Jan and I had this moment. Did you do the thing where the adoption gets finalized,

and then you got to go back to the courtroom? So, bro, so like, I want to know if this hit you, like, it hit me. So we, with all three of ours, we have that. And then I think it was with Felicity, our middle. We go back and, you know, I'm a Jesus guy, I'm a Bible guy. So then we're standing there in the courtroom, room and they're finalizing the adoption. The judge brings us up and we're holding Felicity.

And if I get emotional, this is where I get emotional. Yep, same. And he's like, he starts reading us these commitments that we're going to make. So he looks at us and he's like, Josh Jan Howardton, do you understand that henceforth, you are accepting responsibility for this child, mentally, emotionally, physically, financially, in every way? You know, we're like, yes, sir. and then he's like

Josh and Howard do you understand that this child henceforth becomes a part of your family and has a right to an inheritance for me and I'm like absolutely yes sir

and he's like Josh and Howard do you understand that from this day forward henceforth the identity of this child has been changed and

parallel from wow bro so they're like from now on she will be known as Felicity Howard and I'm like

I'm like weeping because I'm like Romans 8 I'm like for you have not been given a spirit of fear but a spirit of adoption as sons by which we're crying and I'm like this is a freaking multimedia gospel presentation this is exactly what happened to me for the perspective of eternity and it it wrecked me that's awesome heck yeah it totally wrecks me it makes sense now you know like I didn't understand unconditional love

until that point yeah until you have kids you don't understand it, you know, and then exactly what you're saying. Like, at no point am I ever like, oh, yeah, that I don't even think about my kids being adopted. No. Talk to somebody else that has adopted kids. I'm like, oh, yeah, cool. You know, whatever. But, man, my kids are my kids. You know, like, that's, they're me, right? And you see some of the things you do, and they're like, yep, that's his kids, right. You know, and man, I wouldn't change it for, you know, because back then we were like, oh, let's have three biological and we'll adopt one when we get to that point. And God was like, I got a better plan.

Yes, right. So, man, we're blessed for sure. Rich, if you were going to, like, just for the people listen to the pod, you know, it's kind of the, what we're going to be camping on at Lake Point for the next four or five weeks is that, like, hey, run to win. You know, it's like with the same level of ferocity, intensity, focus, you know, as an athlete in their craft, man, leverage the short days. And I just want to emphasize that.

leverage the short days that we have on this earth for the glory of God and the good of people. Man, if you were going to give an encouragement, just everybody listening, like, hey, man, I just want to encourage you guys in this direction. Or, man, here's what I've seen in me and my family's life as we've stepped into this. And you got any words of encouragement that you just kind of share with our body? Man, I think, shoot, be a part of a church, obviously. Get around other believers, getting that word every day. Every day that you can. That book's alive, right?

It's not a dead piece of literature. It's alive, and there's something that can speak to you every single day. It speaks to me every single day. And one of our favorite things is, like, church doesn't stop here, right? So when you go out there, you are the church. And, man, tell people about Jesus. Well, hey, dude, the whole reason, my, you know, I already, I liked you just from afar, but the reason I started to respect you is because you do that.

So, man, I just know in Dallas, Texas, you got, 30, 40,000 people who are now rich for running fans. Appreciate it guys. Come to Cookville, Tennessee, anytime. It's very similar to Texas. It's not Texas. Tennessee's close, but it is. It's like Texas with hills.

Yeah, a little bit more hills. Yeah, a little bit more hills. And Bison's. And Bison. And Bison's. That's right. And world's fittest man, four times. That's go.

I'm tired. Okay. Hey, let's, um, let's do a competition. Push up competition. All right, one, two, three, bright. Let's go. All right, here we go. Down.

One, down. Two, down, three, down, four, down, five, down, six, down, seven, down, down, six, down, nine, down, ten, down, eleven, down, twelve, down, thirteen, down, fourteen, down, fourteen, hold on, hold on, down. 15, down, 16, down, 17, down, 18, down, 19, down, 20, down, 20, down, 20, down, 1, down, 22, down, 23, down. 24, down, 25, down, 26, down, 27, down, 28, down, 29, down, 30, I think we got one out, down, Down. 31? Down. 32. Down. 33. All the way up. Down. 34. Down. 35. Down. 36.

I thought I'd go way longer than that. Thanks for tuning in to live free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review, and share the podcast, and don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Point Church online every weekend and find more resources at lakepoint.church slash live free. We'll see you next time.