Live Free with Josh Howerton - Megachurch Pastor REACTS to Theo Von Wrestling with Jesus!? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

What happens when suffering, politics, and moral confusion collide? In this episode of LIVE FREE, Pastors Josh Howerton, Carlos Erazo, and Paul Cunningham tackle two of the most critical doctrines for modern Christians: God’s sovereignty and the role of conscience in a collapsing culture. Through Acts 23, Romans 8, Titus 1, and 1 Timothy 4, they unpack how believers can trust God’s control over suffering while developing the moral clarity necessary to stand firm in truth. From free will, to abortion, civic engagement, suffering, and the dangers of a weak or seared conscience, this conversation offers a deeply biblical framework for navigating personal hardship and cultural chaos. Rather than retreating in fear or compromise, Christians are called to trust God’s providence, guard their conscience, and live courageously. In this episode, you’ll learn: How God’s sovereignty provides peace in suffering and uncertainty What is compatibilism, free will, and open theism The four types of conscience and why they matter spiritually How culture distorts morality—and how Christians can resist it Why suffering can become ministry in God’s hands How biblical truth shapes both private faith and public responsibility Trust God’s sovereignty. Guard your conscience.  Stand firm. Think biblically. Live free. 💬 This week’s giveaway: Comment HAT 🧢 Want a Live Free hat of your own? Visit LiveFree.shop 📲 Looking to grow deeper in your faith? Check out the Lakepointe App to access our Discipleship Guide, daily Bible reading plan, and more. Text APP to 20411 to download

You feeling terrible is not a sign of you not being saved. It's a sign that you are. It means that your conscience is working. Pain is the sign to you that something is wrong with your body and it needs to be fixed. Guilt is to the soul what pain is to the body. A sign of not being saved is not that you feel terrible when you do terrible things. It's that you feel nothing when you do terrible things. Well, hey, live free nation.

Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. but the live free nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube,

Facebook and our church online platform, and it's more than just watching a service. There are a live host in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church or just looking for a place to start. Church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point.

We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now, enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free Podcast. My name is Carl Zarazzo. And today I'm here with Pastor Josh Howardton and Pastor Paul Cunningham. Listen, after baptizing 700 people. My goodness. That was amazing.

Dude, so for those who are listening, we're on a high. This weekend, at Lake Point, baptized like 700 people. I'm still waiting on the, we'll see what the number lands. But my goodness, dude, I don't ever see anything like that. That's our largest baptism weekend ever. That's amazing. Can I share a story? Please.

So some of the, I was texting with some of the campus pastors. So Ryan Sharp, he's our campus pastor for Firewheel Campus. Shout out Firewood. He shared with me the story of Camilla, who, by the way, we have Camilla's permission to share this story. So she was abducted and drawn into sex slavery when she was a teenager. She was held captive for many years when she was 22. Garland Police does a sting operation in the apartment that she was in.

And she's made free her and some other girls. But she was still wrestling with obviously some spiritual bondage and more. At some point she drives by the Lake Point Firewall campus. Middle of last year comes in, listens to the message. Christ's whole service gives her life to Jesus, connects with our staff, gets baptized. goes to Root It. Week 4 of Rootidate, she comes up to Pastor Ryan and says, hey, Pastor Ryan, I'm going to Waffle House with some friends.

Pastor Ryan's like, great, that's exciting. And she says, no, no, you don't understand. I've never had friends. She is in a group. She brings her dad gets baptized. She brings her brother gets baptized. And now she's serving at Lake Point Church. This is how Jesus changed your life.

So, bro, story after story. Top that, Paul. On that note, it's been a great podcast. We will see you guys next week. Dude, I love my job. Real stories. That's incredible. It was a great weekend.

That is awesome, man. Can I take a hard left emotional turn? Real quick, let me just tell you where this pod's going because this is a deadgum full pod. So we got a lot going on here. We're going to talk. I'm going to give a quick update on some Talariko stuff. That's kind of interesting. Then we're going to talk X23.

We're going to go Indiana Jones on this thing. quick. We're going to talk about views of God's sovereignty. Right. Actually, let me rephrase that. Chad G. Paul C. is going to talk about views of God's sovereignty. I was the only one excited about that topic right now. I was like, I was pumping the year. So what that is, for listeners that are uninformed, is God sovereign?

Is he in control of all things, including evil and sin? Is he actually just sort of playing chess? So different views here. Is he sovereign over this? what the heck are you doing I'm doing I want to know if he's sovereign over this hey he's sovereign over all good things

I think we'll find out all over all good things I agree with you come down from the father of heavenly lights and he permits bad things all master pieces real quick so man fact about

nickel back it's really bad if you play their albums backwards you hear the voice of Satan stop this is so dumb But it's even worse because if you play it forwards, you hear Nickelback. Sorry. Look what he did. On that note, what else are we talking about?

This is an objectively great song. And, you know, you're wrong. Nickelback gets way too much hate. We're going to hit Theo Vaughn, who it feels like a guy would have gone to high school with. He had a super honest clip this week. We're going to talk about, man, there's a lot, dude. There's a lot going on here. We're going to talk about Brandon Gill, United States.

I think congressmen, if I remember right, had a mega viral line of questioning to somebody about abortion that reveals a ton of stuff. So anyway, a ton of stuff going on. Hey, this week we are, this weekend we're getting ready to celebrate Mother's Day as well. So, man, we are excited for that. First time I've ever preached on Mother's Day. Come on. Ever?

At Lake Point. At Lake Point. Yeah. That's cool. Wow. Man, you've been here for now seven years? I know, man. That's a, you wait a bit.

He's where it falls in the calendar. Wait a way to quite a bit. Hey, so if that's you, if you're listening to Lift Free right now and you ever come visit us in person, come say hi. We got a gift for you as well. Every single week, we do a hat giveaway. So comment hats on YouTube or Spotify. And we love to give away these hats. Also, to find our daily Bible reading plan plus the weekly sermon, plus an early release of the Live Free podcast, plus your discipleship guide.

Download the Lake Point Church app, text the Word app, to 20411, or go to Apple or Google Play. Okay. hard and left emotional turn speaking of hats i want to give a shout out to a lake pointer um yeah this is where my eyes may sweat a bit uh who may be going to hug jesus soon and the reason i do this is this uh this is a big part of my week um i'm this guy's name is kelly gudrow and i want to honor this man um kelly gudrow is one of the finest men i've ever met my entire life um if you've been around like point for a minute right now i'm asking everybody to pray for my friend Kelly long time late point guy unless the Lord Jesus does what he does sometimes

Kelly Kelly may go hug Jesus soon and so I've been calling him and texting him praying for him if you've been around Lake Point for a minute Kelly's the guy who what we say at Lake Point is man God will take your deepest misery and make it your greatest ministry and when Kelly got diagnosed with what he was told was going to be terminal cancer he started this thing called Hope bag. I'm wearing a hat right now if you're on, if you're not on YouTube. And what he did is he took all the Bible verses that he would read when he was going into the oncologist to encourage him. And he grabbed a bunch of lake pointers and he started making these little bags where they would put all the stuff that cancer patients need that just sort of help them.

And then he and this group, they would go through their Bibles and they highlighted and marked all these verses that like are purses. perfect words in season for cancer patients. And they turned it into, it blew up, they turned into a ministry. They're sending bags all over the United States to other countries now, all because one guy was willing to turn his greatest misery into his deepest ministry. And so number one, I'm asking people to pray for my buddy Kelly. Number two, I want to use this as a teaching moment for Christians.

Because, and Kelly, if you hear this, all of us, we're praying. that you're not going to go hug Jesus soon. But I do want to say this. Not many people do a good job of showing people how a Christian man is supposed to die. I read this book when I was in college. It was called The Walk. You remember Michael Card?

So Michael Card was a, you don't remember Michael. I do not, no. Michael Card was a Christian musician when I was in high school and middle school. And he wrote a book about this older man that disciples him when he was in college. And the book's called The Walk because all this guy would do, he was a senior saint. And he would just walk big circles around Western Kentucky University's campus with him and talk to him about Jesus.

And that guy got diagnosed with terminal cancer. And Michael Card was like, well, I guess our discipleship's over. And he said, are you kidding? And then he said this, now I have to show you how a Christian man dies. And he spent the rest of his short life, taking walks with Michael and talking about how a Christian man dies. Kelly Gudrow is walking faithfully with Jesus, and everybody that he comes in contact with,

he is pointing to the one he's going to go hug either now or later. So I want to do this real quick because also a name that I will not name, like literally right before we started this pod, I got a call about a lake pointer that was probably going to heaven soon. And I just want to do this real quick. There's a prayer from a guy named Richard Baxter

that was a pastor in the 1600s, I think, that I read years ago, and it was his dying prayer that he wrote. And I saved it in an iPhone note for me, because someday, all three of us, we're going to need to set an example for our kids and our grandkids, God willing, to show them how a Christian man dies.

And I saved this prayer back then so that the Lord could help me when that time comes to do that. And so I just, you know, there's tons of listeners who you have somebody that might go hug Jesus soon. What I do is I call somebody and I just ask him if they be okay if I read them this prayer. And maybe you'll do that or maybe this will come for you. But it says this, Lord, it belongs not to my care, whether I die or if I live. To love and serve thee is my share. And this thy grace must give.

If life be long, I will be glad that I may long obey. If short, yet why should I be sad to welcome endless day? Christ leads me through no darker rooms than he went through before. He that unto God's kingdom comes must enter by this door. Come, Lord, when grace hath made me meet thy blessed face to see, for if thy work on earth be sweet what will thy glory be then i shall end my sad complaints and weary sinful days and join with the triumphant saints that sing my saviour's praise my knowledge of that life is small the eye of faith is dim but tis enough that christ knows all and i shall be with him in jesus name

Amen. Amen. So I love my boy Kelly. Pray for my boy Kelly. And I pray that it encourages a lot of people. Amen. There you go. There you go. That was a hard emotional left turn. Yeah. Wow. Have you been keeping up with the Tala Rico Pulse by any chance? See, there's the emotional left turn. That's what we have Carlos. But we got to do it. No pun intended. We got to do it. We got to do the pod. We got to do the pod. Yeah. Let me do this real quick. because I want to explain something that in the next few months

will become more and more of a thing that we just, because we have a strategy. So let me explain something real quick. Trinity, will you toss that thing up real quick? So first of all, so James Talleyco, if you don't know who this is, go, we'll put it in the show notes. I've done either one or two React episodes to Tala Rico.

He is, man, this is, man, no ill will towards him as a man. Like, I pray for his salvation. We want good things. for his life, but the things that he stands for are largely their evil things. And he's what the New Testament would call in New Testament categories like a false teacher, because he's a guy that claims to be somebody that he preaches in a quote-unquote church, is quote-unquote in a quote-unquote seminary, training for quote-unquote Christian ministry, but he's, God is non-binary, all the trans things, you know, max boost abortion and, you know, all the things he got hates.

He's for that stuff. So that dude, right now polls are showing in the midterms, he may flip Texas blue. I just want to say, you know, not without live free nation going down without a fight. So let me just say. First of all, number one, this came out this week. James Telerico breaks national fundraising record with $27 million in the first quarter for the Senate race. And then this poll came out two days ago. So this is him versus the two.

There's like a runoff between the two conservatives, Paxon and Cornyn. And right now, that poll shows him with a slight edge over either of them. That, I'll just say this, that will only happen if all the Christians in the state of Texas don't do their jobs and stay home and abdicate their spiritual responsibility for what they're supposed to do. So let me just, I want to explain something before we start doing it. So some people, you listen to the pod and some people still, they're like, hey man, you need to stay out of politics. You know, quit. You need to stay out of it. Quit talking about it.

So let me explain something. 30 years ago, the differences between the two parties were largely second and third tier issues. It was like, hey, man, we differ on marginal tax rates. And, you know, both of us are against open borders, but we differ on how many legal immigrants we should allow. And, you know, 30 years ago, bro, it was Democrats signing DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act, like defining, that was Democrats signing that, defining marriage as one man, one woman. You know, that was 30 years. So 30 years ago, the party differences were second third year issues.

The reason that some Christians look at pastors like me and they're like, bro, you're crazy. You're supposed to stay out of this stuff is because they're using yesterday's paradigm on today's reality. because now the differences are not second and third tier issues. All the differences, they're like first tier issues. Because it's like, hey man, one party wants to like max boost abortion, redefine marriage. They can't get the definition of gender right when they're like, by the way, using the government's school system to indoctrinate everybody's kids into those things. It's like literally, if you're paying attention, it's like open socialism and actual communism. Like you're watching Mom Donnie up there.

like legitimately open borders. The DOJ, actually I'll just throw this up real quick. I don't have a commentary on this. I just, people are not, Christians are not getting their heads fast enough around the reality. That's why I'm doing this. So this came out, I think it was yesterday. The current DOJ is digging into what the last administration did with the DOJ and they found the quote, this is New York Post, okay? Biden admin, quote, zealously probed traditional Christians, even keeping tabs on priests. Now, go. to the little quote in the article, and this is like, this is what the DOJ, all right? This is DOJ.

So this is not, again, this is not like Newsmax. This is the DOJ. I'm going to read it if my, you know, I don't got any cheaters here. So here's what it says. The Biden administration's zealously investigated, penalized, and engaged in, quote, aggressive prosecution of Christians with traditional biblical values, ignoring their conscientious objections and even secretly keeping tabs on Catholic priests, the Department of Justice task force found. Listen real close.

The DOJ-led task force to eradicate anti-Christian bias, released 14 findings confirming the 46th president's officials, quote, forced Christians with traditional biblical views to choose whether to live in accordance with their faith or to risk violating federal law. In a 200-page report, the task force concluded, quote, the Biden administration generally tolerated religious beliefs as long as they were privately held,

but zealously pursued actions to limit Christians' ability to act in accordance with their faith. Okay? So again, dude, what you're getting is, it's like, this is not just like, hey man, we differ on marginal tax rates and how many roads we should build.

So, again, let me just, quick theology of this and let's talk about the Bible. It's going to be real fun. Okay. Here's why we can't do the thing of like, hey, we should just stay out of this stuff. A theology is, if you read your Bible,

like just zoom out, Satan targets thrones and dominions. That's like his strategy in the Bible. He targets thrones and dominions. That's what got him kicked out of heaven. He's like, that dude's on a throne. I like that throne. I want that throne.

If you trace the demonic activity of the Old Testament, it is honestly disproportionately located in evil infestations in government powers. So the demonic Egyptian, you know, powers that enslave God's people and kill all the babies and all the things. You have that, you have Babylon. The Ezekiel prophecy,

since it's plenty of your, shout out, the Ezekiel prophecy that has a near, it has a near fulfillment and an eternal fulfillment. The Ezekiel prophecy that's about Satan's fall from heaven is actually in the near fulfillment. It's about a demonic king. So you're seeing this pattern. Then you flip to the New Testament.

There's a reason that Satan tempts Jesus and he goes, hey man, I'll give you all the thrones in these nations because he targeted and took over all the thrones and political powers in the world. That's what the New Testament calls him, quote, the God of this world. Then you get the, we're doing a little theology of God in government real quick. Just stay with me. Then in the New Testament, primarily in the book of First Peter and in the book of Romans,

you've got the Roman Empire, who at the time was super nasty, is called Babylon. Why? because it's going, hey, the same demonic spirit that empowered the Babylonian Empire in the Old Testament, that same demonic spirit is like a principality and power over this empire now. So you have that plan. And then, dude, you just read the, it's like in the book of Ephesians, you have this, the language of the New Testament for demonic powers. It calls them things like principalities and powers and rulers in high places.

So what I want, Christian's hunters, and then the book of Revelation, it's Satan apparently at the end in eschatological views. He gets control of a one of a world government. So for Christians, you need to have your blinkers on. Hey dude, what Satan tries to do is infest government powers and then

wield them for wicked godless purposes. So I just want to say, man, like when Christians adopt the, ah, we should just stay out of pop politics what you're doing is Satan's going, thank you very much. Because I was trying to get in control.

all that stuff that actually belongs to Jesus. Thank you very much for stepping aside and let me do my thing. So the big idea is if godly people don't, godless people will. So we are deciding in some measure, especially for Christian dads, dudes, moms, grandmoms, you are deciding in some measure what cultural inheritance we will hand our children and our grandchildren and the future church in America. by whether or not we do our job as salt and light in this world. So no, we will not, quote, stay out of those things.

Yes, we are going to lean into them. And yes, we actually have a strategy to try to mobilize, not just live free nation, but churches to try to not let like an actual open heretic flip Texas. Yep. Any objections? Are we in? I want to know what the strategy is.

That's right. Well, we've built a website. this website. Basically, here's, okay, here's the long short of it. Basically, dude, Christians avoid voting at a radically disproportionate level. Yep. So it's like, dude, I think I read something like only like 40% of Christians vote. So there's a deal.

Like in every, in, this is in presidential elections. In the last presidential election, it was estimated between 40 and 50 million Bible-believing Christians didn't vote. I just want to put that in perspective. Like, presidential elections recently have been decided by like two to four million votes. Yep. So I'm just going to let that sink in. In midterms, it's probably at least double that. Like, 100 million, 80 million Christians, like abdicate a spiritual responsibility to be salt and light in the world.

So, like, honestly, dude, if Christians did their job, literally every election in America would go the way that best slowed societal decay. So like, hey man, we just want to figure out a way. Let's mobilize our people without the church losing its main focus. Our main focus is not political. Our main focus is preaching the gospel, making disciples, planning churches, building great families. And then we want to leverage them to be salt and light in the world that we're in. So we have the website.

We're going to do this deal where people can text vote. Actually, you can go ahead and do it now. You can text the word vote to the number 2041, and two things will happen. One, most people don't vote in midterms just because they forget. get when they are. I'll be honest to me before. That's real. Oh, bro. That's just, I don't even know that happened. That was today. Yeah. So one, you can just, you can click a little button there and we will only literally will text you one time ever. And it will text every single person. Hey man, here's a

reminder, midterm voting start it so you don't forget. And then number two, a lot of people just don't know where they vote the midterms. So they can go there and we just, we built this website. I've been told it's the first of its kind where somebody can just put. in their street address, we are not getting your information. Literally nobody is keeping anybody's information. They can put it in their street address and it will in two seconds spit out for them when midterm voting starts for them, where their specific address is supposed to vote. And number three, what in where, what documents where you live do you have to bring to be able to do it? So it's going to be awesome, man. We'll see what we do, man. We'll see if we can live free nation

can flip a... I think we can. Come on, man. We can do it. Let's go. Hey, I have a question for you. I will allow it. By the way, great job. this weekend. Hey, thanks, dude. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, why did it

make to the sermon? A lot. We're going to do this real fast. Yeah. Let's go, let's, uh, let's take a little trip together. Let's go Indiana Jones real quick.

Okay. Um, so first of all, uh, so we did ask 23 this week. So this is... Back to the new sermon series. Back to there is more.

And we added, did you notice? In game. Let's go. Oh. You noticed that until you said that. You're a Marvel fan? Not really.

Okay. Okay. It's a pretty good movie. Paul probably hates it. But go ahead. He hates it. Whoa. Let's make these on the same level.

Okay. All right. Let's do this. And then. He hates this shot of Turin, you know. I heard he, never mind. What is happening? Uh-oh.

Jeremiah, shout up. By the way, in the comments, people are starting to say that they're like complaining that we're being too mean to him about Israel. No. Yo, I think it's hilarious. I do too. I think it's hilarious. It's him with a fake account.

I'm like Kevin Durant. I'm like Kevin Durant. I'm like Kevin Durant with burner accounts over here. It's his fake YouTube. cow, bro. All right, let's go. I think it's funny for the record. Keep going.

So the reason we're calling it, there is more end game, is from Acts 23 on, is essentially Paul, it is, at the events of Acts 23 start the end game of Paul's life that lead to his head getting cut off, which, by the way, leads to the conversion of the Roman Empire. So we'll get to that. So essentially, what Paul does from Acts 23 on is he goes, hey, man, I'm willing to be the photon torpedo that goes down to the ventilation shaft of the Death Star. If I can trade my life for the conversion of the Roman emperor, which in turn might lead to the conversion of the Roman Empire,

he's like, I'm willing to be that photon torpedo. You will see from Acts 23 to the end of the book, Paul intentionally does things where he could have avoided his own death. And he goes, actually, my goal is not to avoid death. My goal is to bring that guy to new life in Jesus Christ. So it's like his, I did it on purpose. Kind of like how Iron Man, you know, he trades his life to kill Thanos. That's kind of where we're going.

Spoiler alert. Spoiler. Sorry. You've had enough time. Yeah, you'd have enough time. That's on you. Paul is like, to mix movie metaphors, I'll be the photon torpedo down the ventilation shaft of the Death Star. Okay.

So a couple things about this passages that are really interesting. Number one, what you have right here is Paul gets in a bunch of trouble and he gets put in front of a group called the Sanhedron. Paul here in a second is going to talk about who the Sanhedron was. because there are all these warring little factions within Judaism in the time of Acts and Jesus. And if you don't understand that, you really can't understand the passage. So Paul stands up in front of these dudes

that are kind of getting ready to put him on trial potentially for his life. And he starts by saying, men and brothers, he says, men and brothers, when typically what he would have said in a Roman judicial system is rulers and elders. This is interesting, a little fun fact, you don't notice this stuff.

reason he says men and brothers, anybody know why? Because the Sanhedra was made up of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and Paul had been a Pharisee. So Paul's subtly nodding to the fact like, hey, dude, I've been on your side of the bench before. We're in the same team. Yeah, same team. So he's got a little strategy going on. Now, there's the Pharisees here and there's the Sadducees. The Sadducees were almost like in modern day parlance. They were like the progressive Christians is kind of the vibe here. Actually, Paul, will you go ahead and do your little quick snapshot of the different groups here? Because this is going to set this up for listeners. Yeah.

In Judaism in general at that time, you had three main groups, two of which are represented here. So you've got Sadducees. These were like your elite traditionalists in the sense of they only held that the first five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, also known as the Torah, were authoritative. And because in those books, you didn't have angels or demons or the resurrection, they didn't believe in those things at all. but they were really a minority, like single digits of the population. They were mainly high priest and just the priestly officials. Hyphus.

Yeah, Caiaphas was, would have been a sadducee. And, like, Jewish historians actually said they weren't very much liked among the people. And people were, for the most part, rejected their doctrine. Yes. Way more popular were the Pharisees. Now, real quick, I just want to say this about Sadducees. What's interesting is you kind of have the exact same dynamic now in modern American Christianity. Whereas, like, because those dudes, sadducees were usually like wealthy, highly,

educated cultural elites. Yep. So here's who you want to think of. Like in the same way in America, vast majority of Christians in America, they're like Bible believing, cover to cover, whether they obey it or not. They're like, yeah, man, I'm all in. Heaven, hell, angels, demons, I'm all in on all the stuff. And then you got like, I'm not trying to take a shot anybody.

You got like a million, not a million. You have a couple hundred. Like Duke University Divinity School Christians. who like got, you know, they got more degrees in Fahrenheit. They're educated beyond their level of intelligence. And they're like, actually, you know, we don't really know about most of the stuff in the Bible. That's not what you think it means. Yeah.

Honestly, they're doing like on Team Satan, acting like they're playing for Team Jesus and actually deconstructing people's faith. But there's not many of them, but they're in positions of culturally elite power. That's right. And they're like kind of progressive. That's who the Sadducees is. Exactly. They hold the keys of power at the highest levels.

Then you had the Pharisees. These were more like lay popular level teachers and influencers. And really, we kind of think of the Pharisees as the bad guys. In that day, they were the heroes because these were people who memorized like the Bible. They strenuously lived it out. And so just think of like your favorite Bible teachers today, but maybe that aren't in positions of power. Think of people who have like a great podcast or like they go around and teach at conferences. These would have been the Pharisees of their day. They accepted the entire Hebrew test. So everything that we know in terms of it was called the Torah, the Nevaeim, which is the prophets, and the Ketuvim, which is the writings, which, by the way, corresponds to the Protestant O Testament. So they would have, let me how that. The Protestant Ode Testament. By the way, I'm going to shout this out. I'm going to tease this. We got a React episode coming soon from Paul Cunningham to Father Mike on the creation of the Protestant Bible.

So keep your heads on us, Will. I may or may not have just put that in there as a little teaser, little teaser. And by the way, Paul, the Apostle Paul was a Pharisee. Yep. Nicodemus. Yep. Joseph of Arimathea. Yeah.

Also, one thing to keep in mind, again, I didn't know. Obviously, Jesus gave a lot of critiques towards Pharisees. One thing to remember, it's because of these guys that Judaism survives after the temple is destroyed. Wow. That because you have no temple to do sacrifices, which guess who's purvey that was? The Sadducees, so they lost their power. Then you've got the Pharisees, though, because they were big on living it out in all

of life, that they were able to. than to pass that on to your everyday average Jew. One other group, who not in this passage, and not nearly as prominent as these other two, but there's still a presence at this time. We're called the Essines. These were like a separatist sect that lived in intentional communities

in the wilderness areas. Think like monasteries at this time. They thought that temple was corrupt and that all of society was corrupt. So the best thing they could do would be to withdraw from society and out into the wilderness. They were known for really aesthetic practices, like being really strict, and they are obsessed with purity,

and they anticipated that the end of times was coming. So they were very apocalyptic in how they viewed their time. They were the ones, the Dead Sea Scrolls. Yep, that's right. They preserved the Dead Sea Scrolls. Exactly. And obviously, were you going to talk about John the Baptist? Yeah, can. Yeah. So John the Baptist, a lot of people think John the Baptist was in a scene primarily for two reasons. One, he's out of the wilderness, so he's a separatist. By the way, I'm not going to make an Israel joke on you here. I've been to the little spot. Well, I'm getting roasted at the YouTube comments for being mean. I think it's funny. I'll just say this and I may have you edit this out. It's all the people saying is it's all women who are saying that. I'm like,

I don't think they understand how dudes like kind of roast each other and that's how we love each other. Just know real quick, I've got one country the second you say it, the second I'm ready for it on the other side. I'm ready. What did you say? You've got one country. I'm just waiting to the day you you mentioned a country or a place. I'm just ready. I'm ready to turn it on you. I want to know. I'm not telling you. I just got to keep it aside. Oh, okay. He's ready, bro. For the next two months, you're like throwing out every country possible that you can. It's the podcast. Keep going. Keep going. Sorry. So number one, he's a separatist. He's in the wilderness. Yep. If you ever get, it's Qumran. Is that what it's called? The Kumron community where the

Dead Sea Scrolls were. Very similar to area. That was the Asean, encampment. So I've been out there. They're the ones, this is the second reason people think John the Baptist may have been in a scene. They're the ones that created the concept of baptism. From what I understand. And John the Baptist, so if you go to their little Coomron community or whatever the community is called, they got these little baptismal pools. And obviously, John the Baptist is the first guy that shows up on the scene doing baptism. So for those two reasons, a lot of people think, if he was. You got anything else? No, no, that was the third group that's prominent that day.

But again, mainly, though, in terms of people that are influenced and that you see much more of in the Gospels and in the Book of Acts are the Sadducees and the Pharisees or the two main groups. And Paul here brilliantly leveraged them against each other in order to escape a really hairy scenario where he could have died. So brilliant. Okay. So let me, yeah, let me talk about it. So what Paul does is he gets put on trial here. And he goes, you know, men and brothers. It does a thing.

And there's a dude named Ananias that is the high priest at this point. now if for our Bible nerds this is not the Ananias from the Gospels and it's not the Ananias from Acts 5 so that there's a lot of Herod and a lot of Ananias and a lot of Mary's so you know you get this is a different one there's three I think this is the third one three Anonias is I believe so yeah yeah so Gospels Acts 5 and this guy right yes right so that he's a different different guy by the way interesting Josephus Jewish historian records this dude was super corrupt. You actually can see it

in this passage where he tells so Paul says, hey man, you whitewashed wall. By the way, Paul's quoting Jesus and one of the Old Testament prophets when he calls him that. And Ananias says, commands him to be struck on the mouth

for violating the Old Testament law. You can tell he's corrupt because Ananias has Paul struck on the mouth for violating the law? Him having Paul struck on the mouth was a violation of the Old Testament law. So he was like a bad dude who would weaponize the OT law to like just kind of for his personal willpower. He interestingly, when Paul says God will strike, he says standing in ice, God will strike

you, you whitewashed him. Some Bible scholars think that was actually a prophetic word. because this dude Ananias in a few years, he gets hunted and killed by these Jewish little Jewish ninjas, these Sakari dudes, for his like relationship with the Roman Empire. So some people think Paul was actually giving a prophetic word when he said, God's going to strike you. So you got that. And then Paul does this brilliant thing where what he says is, now remember for listeners, you got the Sadducees. who don't believe in angels, demons, or resurrection, which is why they were sad.

You see. That's the preacher joke. Thank you. That's great. Thank you. And then the Pharisees who did. So Paul, he's so smart. He's a little mischievous.

He goes, you know, actually, it's because of my belief in the resurrection that I'm on trial right now. And it splits. So the Pharisees start, the Pharisees start fighting the Sadducees. And so Paul does that. the enemy of my enemy is my friend. There you go. And he's like, I'm with the Pharisees.

And they start fighting. They fight each other instead of killing Paul. I love him. The Pharisees are like, we see nothing wrong with this guy. Oh, we love this guy. That's a good point. Interesting point. Paul is actually kind of a great dude.

So, and I won't go into the rest of it. You have an assassination attempt on Paul's life on the back half of this chapter. By the way, another fun fact, the guys that make a little death vow to kill Paul, a lot of Bible scholars think they, They were at this Jewish group called the Sakari. Carry these little daggers around with them, which is where we get the name of that movie from about 15 years ago called Sicario. I didn't, I hated that movie.

I do not recommend it. About an assassin. It came from these little Jewish ninjas. And they, you know, so that's a little interesting fact. But long story short, Paul gets away, but he stays under control of the Roman judicial system. and this leads to his eventual trial before the Roman emperor and death. Now, Paul Cunningham, what you have right here in this passage, and I want you to show where it dovetails,

is you have some stuff here about the sovereignty of God. Okay, what things is God in control of? Is God in control of all things? If your answer to that is yes, is he in control of evil things? If so, does that make him the author of evil? What about kids getting cancer? He calls that. If he's in control of things, well, doesn't mean we're just robots.

So this passage intertwines with a lot of concepts about sovereignty. Paul Cunningham, not to step onto any controversial landmines. Would you walk us through maybe a general views of God's sovereignty? Well, hey, if, Free Nation, quick pause before we jump back in, join us this weekend for Mother's Day on May 9th and 10th as we take time to celebrate the incredible women in our lives. start making plans to bring your mom or mother figure to church for a powerful message and a special gift. Again, if you live within driving distance to any of our physical locations here at Lake Point, come hang out, come visit, come find us at our first-time guest tent.

We'd love to give you a special gift as well. And now, back to the podcast. Yeah, a few views. Really, I'd say you've got two main views. I like to think of them as like lanes. Two main lanes that good Jesus-loving, faithful Christians can go down. but with each of those lanes there is a ditch on the other side that faithful Christians really cannot go down and they're dangerous and can lead you to some really bad places. So first view is what is often known as compatibilism.

The reason it's known as compatibilism is because it's the idea that going alongside of each other are human responsibility and divine sovereignty. We are responsible for our actions and yet God is sovereignly in control so that we do what we want to do. and yet what God wants to do also takes place and a curse. And so both are 100%. And some people are like, well, how can that be? This is where I like to pull it out of. We believe this in so many places. One, just in a general attention of we believe that Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human.

We can't explain fully how, but we believe it because we see it in Scripture. And yet when it comes to this issue, people want to reject it. But I'm like, you see both in Scripture. You see it in this text of how he says, you must stand before me. You must testify in Rome. And he uses the word must. Must. It is day. The word is day in Greek. It is necessary. You have to. And yet what we also see is human actions that get him there. Wait, who's the he that says that. Oh, it literally says that the Lord stood by him and said. You must testify. And Roman, yes, that happened. That's where the story of accidents. No, go. There's a what's called a theopony in this passage where the exalted Jesus appears to Paul. Is it a dream? I forgot. Or is he just, or a vision? Yeah, the following night, the Lord stood by him. Yeah. So we don't know. Yeah. But Jesus Christ appears and literally says, hey man, you must. You're going to do this.

But we see human actions in the story that lead to it. Later in the book of Acts, there's the famous shipwreck scene where it's basically the same thing. It goes to Paul and says, don't worry. You're going to make it through. Paul says, hey, God has revealed to me that everyone here and here is safe. And yet when people start to abandon ship, he says, no one can leave or we're all going to die. Well, which is it, Paul? Is it that it's all definitely going to happen? or there are certain things we have to do? Yes. Acts 4 going backwards. Not Paul, but just in the, you still see this with the apostles. They're under threat of persecution. They say in their prayer, sovereign Lord. Hmm, sovereign Lord. So they immediately appealed to his sovereignty and in fact that he's

in control while they're in the midst of persecution, which, by the way, persecution was evil. It was bad. And yet somehow God was still in control. They say the Jews and the Gentiles gathered together to conspire against your anointed one Jesus. The most evil act in human history is what they're describing. So let's just say this. So we'll start to get to some of the practical stuff that I know this can lead into is like I've gotten questions. So like, wait, are you going to finish that passage? Oh, I am. Okay, I was going to say, I'm leaving it intentional because this is an important thing because some people will say, why do God, why does God let bad things happen to good people, whether it is someone getting cancer or, you know,

a tornado, taking out homes or even hurting, you know, killing people. And by the way, that's where we don't need to get these abstract lofty answers that we need to, these are real people that have experienced real hurt. But what I've begun doing when I've gotten that question is saying, hey, maybe the best way we can answer it is ask, why did the worst thing ever happen to the best person ever? That's right. That's right. So I don't want to say specifically of why God may have allowed certain things to happen in your life. But let's just ask what does the Bible say about why did the worst thing imagineable happen to the best person ever? Why did the cross happen to Jesus? So right there, you get this idea. If they gather together and conspired against me and put

them to death. And by the way, in the book of Acts, they're held responsible for that. They're commanded to repent. Go ahead. And that is why in AD 70, Jerusalem is destroyed and the wrath of God falls on 500,000 to a million people in the city because God holds them responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. 100%. And yet. And yet, in the same sentences, says they gathered a guy and conspired against him. And they did what your predetermined plan and hand led them to do. speaking about God. Speaking about God. So which is it?

Is it human responsibilities or divine sovereignty? Yes. Compatible. Yes. Even like one other place that maybe doesn't have the stakes in terms of the evil there. But again, I think everyone accepts, at least every Bible believe in Christian accepts, were there dozens of authors over hundreds and thousands of years that wrote scripture and they wrote what they wanted to write to the audience they were writing to?

Yes. And as scripture say that everything they wrote was inspired by God so that God also had them write exactly what he wanted to write. Yes. That's right. And so how do we explain some? This is where, you know, it's your idea of like if God is the size of an ocean and I'm the size of cocaine, there's certain things that don't fit in and we can't explain. But yet, we see them clear things in scripture. So there's compatibilism. Way, before he finishes compatibility, my favorite compatibilism quote, I'm sure you've heard it before, is somebody asked Charles Spurgeon one time, how do you reconcile divine sovereignty and human

responsibility and his response was I don't reconcile friends. I don't got to reconcile friends. Can never top spurt. You can't stop spur. You just can't you can't top spurt. Real quick, it's an analogy of, because some people when they hear this, like, so you don't believe in free will, oh, no, no, compatibilityism does believe in free well if you define it a specific way. I am free. If I do what aligns with my desires. If I do something I want to do, then I'm free. So, for example, if I picked up this cup because I wanted to, then I am free. Now, if someone were taking my hand and force me to pick it up, then I wouldn't be free. But if I do what I want to do, then I am free. So the idea here is that God has us do somehow allowing and sometimes causing certain things

what he wants to have happen. And yet we do what we want to do and they are somehow compatible, even if we can't perfectly explain it. I will just, because really, if you're not picking up on this, Paul just mentioned this, we're really talking about, man, should Christians believe in what is called an unlimited free will? And the answer to that is really no. No. No. And some people really object to that, and we're going to talk about that here in a second. But whenever somebody does that, like, I've gotten that question a lobby before when I've talked about sovereignty in a sermon. And whenever somebody does that, I'll be like, hey, man, you don't even believe you have free will. Like, yes, I do.

Okay, I'm like, okay, be taller. Mm. Okay, how old are you? 46, B 32. Mm. You don't, it's, we all understand. We have limits. We are constrained.

We are constrained. You keep going on views. Now, let me give, there's a ditch. In a sense, it's another view, but really I would say it's a ditch of this view. The ditch would be what's called hard determinism or hard sovereignty. This really is the idea that we are robots, that we really have no sense of true human free will, that it's just an illusion. And yet the problem with that is like the Bible. Who believes that, though?

Hard Calvinist. Hyper Calvinists. Hyper Calvinists. Yeah. Hard Calvinists. Both of the ditches are a little bit rare. The other one has more people in it, but we'll get to. to that. I'll say this.

Not as popular. Let me say this. Hard Calvinists and atheists. And I really, listen, people do not. Okay, here's why I say this. Listen, actually, I'm glad we're talking about this. You need to get this. This is one of the primary arguments against secularism, naturalism, or atheism.

Because if you think about this, what an atheist believes is literally everything in the universe is cause and effect in a closed system. Everything that has ever happened is because those two atoms bumped into those two atoms or in your brain, there was this chemical reaction, and that actually your quote-unquote choice to love your wife, actually that just happened because this chemical reaction took place in your brain and those atoms bumped into those atoms. So what I would say is the people that actually most believe in hard determinism

are atheists that believe that every thought, every feeling, every decision you ever make is actually just because atoms collided in a certain way. I forget his name, but there was actually an atheist philosopher at USC, who basically said that free will is an illusion, and that because of our DNA and everything. And so basically he said, theoretically, no one should go to jail. Now, he said we have to to keep people safe, but actually they shouldn't be held responsible for their decisions

because it was just predetermined, except not with God and mine kind of thing. So the problem with hard sovereignty determinism is the Bible. You got passages like Deuteronomy 3019, I have said before you life and death, therefore choose life. The implication is that he's giving them a choice and he's compelling them to make a choice, as if they are actually responsible. Matthew 2337, how often would I have gathered your children and you were not willing?

This is Jesus speaking to the people in Jerusalem. Isaiah 118, come now, let us reason together. You don't reason with a robot or with the public. There you go. Yeah, and more than reasoning, Paul, as well, some philosophers would argue, well, the reason why this is a big deal is because if you don't have volition or if you don't have choice, you don't have love. Yeah. I'll get to that because there's an issue, though, with that. Okay.

If you view freedom in a certain way, there's potential issues that. We may get into that. It's a little bit nerdy philosophical things. I'll let you guys do the Trump thing of the Trump card of whether we go there or not. I think I actually might be good here because I'll go ahead and put my card to say, I'm a compatibleist. I think if you were listening to us, you could probably tell we were at. I'm a hard Calvinist. That's a joke.

Sorry, Brooke. He didn't actually choose to love you. Well, I just changed him. I just changed your business. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm a compatible. I'm sold. And so when people are like, well, are you saying that God, man, gave me this cancer or that God killed my child? I'm like, hey, we got to always be really careful because God is not the author of evil. That's very clear in scripture. And yet what we also see is that he is ultimate in control of all things. Job went through the absolute worst things we can imagine. He lost his kids. He was afflicted with these diseases and he lost his possessions. I mean, just awful. And yet he says, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be his name.

And then here's what's interesting. And then in the context, it says, and none of the things that Job said did he sin? And go. Because if he had said something wrong, you would think, oh, nope, nope, that was wrong. Obviously, in Job 1, you get the heavenly courtroom scene where Satan goes, hey, God, am I allowed to go do all this bad stuff to Job? And God permits it. It was all under his ordained sovereignty. Exactly. And that's, so I will say on that is I do actually think the word permitting is a good idea in this sense of saying, yeah, when it comes to things that are evil, he permits it. But we have to remember that if he truly did not in a sense want to allow it to happen, he could have stopped it. So anything he permits is still by his will. We can't always understand how, but that's where you get Romans 8. The idea of God is able to work all things together for good and that nothing can separate us from his love. I think this is a very practical, maybe a pastoral moment because we've been living in philosophical land. What this is.

means is that nothing can come to me except through the hands of my good and wise father. Amen. Everything that comes to me has to pass through his hands, including evil things that while he is not the author of, he letting them come to me is somehow a part of his plan. So maybe it wasn't sent by God's hand, but it was for sure filtered through God's hand. Yeah. I think at the end of the day. Honestly, dude, I know that's tough. Yeah. They're just ain't a way to read a Bible without that awareness. Yes. They're in a way. Yeah. So the other side of this is what's often known as, so you have compatibilism, which is the idea of human freedom and divine sovereignty are somehow compatible, even if we can't fully understand how. There's a second side

which puts more of an accent and an emphasis on the human responsibility part of it. This is often known as libertarianism or libertarian free will. So earlier we used my cup and I said for a compatibilist, I am free if I picked this up because I'm wanted to. A libertarian person would say, I am free if I could have done otherwise, simply that and if nothing outside of me or inside of me ultimately determined whether I would do it or not. It's something that I can do otherwise and that I have the ultimate deciding factor over my emotions and over anything else that comes outside of me. This is how I think you're probably your average ordinary modern day person thinks of freedom, and it sounds really good. But I will say that there are some problems with this. Even let's not even go to the Bible.

Let's just talk about like our relationships with our spouses. Like if our spouses said, hey, so why do you love me? You're going out for a date for Jana's birthday, and she asked you, you know, why did you choose me? And you say, well, Jana, you know, at the end of the day, I just considered all the pros and cons. And I had some emotions in different directions. But at the end of the day, I just was sovereign over my emotions and I just decided, you know what, I'm just choosing you because I choose you. There you go. How's that going for you?

Not great. Not great. And not true. Yeah. And not true. And let's also go to a different place. Let's go to like Nazi Europe. It's like, okay, why did you shelter the Jews?

Well, you know, again, I just weighed all the pros and cons, and I had some conflicting emotions, but at the end of the day, I just separated myself from those emotions, and I just decided to hide them. Would we consider those really good moral people? No. What you want to hear, what Janna wants to hear, is, you know what? I can't even explain it. I was just irresistibly drawn to you. My emotions overwhelmed me, and I couldn't have chosen any other way.

Same thing with the people in Europe that hide Jews. And so part of this is what sounds really good in theory and practice, if you actually said it out loud, it really does not sound good out loud. Second thing, and you kind of hit this, it's hard to really disreconcile with parts of Scripture. Yeah, there's too many. There's just too many. Even like you have David who is punished for the census,

and yet it says that God incited him through Satan to take it. And that's one of many. And so you have a few options here. There's a lot in there. Is that you could say, well, those are exceptions. If you say that, maybe they are. I don't believe that because it seems to be more the norm of how God works in the Bible. The problem is, and this is we'll bring yours back in.

If you make the argument that the only way God could be loving or just is to work that way, if you said that these are exceptions, they say, oh, God is only, is just 99% of the time. There you go, because there's the exceptions. Yeah, that's good. So that there's an issue there. Okay. But I will say, you can be a good Jesus-loving person in land there because it is really hard at an experiential level. When you see some of the evil and like, oh, are you doing up atheism?

I am. Do it real quick. And then we need to move on. Okay. So that's your other lane. This is the fourth view and this is a massive ditch. This is one that Christians should not adopt. You should avoid at all, run, run, run, run. Yeah, should not adopt. And that is this, they also believe in libertarian free will. But here's their thought is, hey, if God knows all things and he knew I was going to pick up this cup and he knows everything perfectly, then actually I don't have free will.

Because at the end of the day, I had to pick up the cup because you saw it was going to happen. I really truly had no other choice. So to protect. act free will and to protect from having to deal with really tough situations that we've been talking about. Here's what they say. The future is open because God actually doesn't know the future. That's what's called open theism. Essentially what they believe is God's essentially playing a big chessboard. Yep. And he waits to, he didn't know what you're going to do. He waits to see what you're going to do. And then he plays a little chess board. And because he's better than humanity, he's going to eventually get it where he wants it. But he's playing chess. Exactly. He knows all the possibilities. But he actually does not know what you're going to do until

you do it. And like, just to kind of give you some street level examples of how this sounds, because actually, yeah, this says this, he would be less of a God if he couldn't change his intentions when he wants to or be open to new ideas from intelligent, creative beings he's in relationship with. And with that person based, I'm not going to say, but I'll say it's from a very popular Christian author. Yeah, we actually intentionally chose that quote. And, you know, we don't love hitting people by name. No. But honestly, the reason we chose that, that legitimately what you just read is from one of the best-selling Christian authors in America right now, who has some other amazing things to say, by the way.

But that, not a win. That is actual open theism and is no bueno. Yeah. Because literally what I just said, God would be less of a God if he weren't more like a human. Yeah. Which is a bad idea. All right. Here's the biggest problem with this is, again, just the, oh, go ahead.

No, no, no, just as we line up. It's just the Bible. Yeah, the biggest problem with this is, again, the Bible, the same thing with the other ditch. And that is, like, for example, in Isaiah 46, the way God distinguishes himself from the false idols is the very fact that he does know all things. Also, Psalm 139, 16, in your book were written, the days that were formed for me. So the idea is scripture is that he knows. He's clearly aware. All prophecy is based on God's awareness of all future events.

Yeah. Somebody's just, you know, I see you as we land and Paul nailed this. you know, the reason why this matters is because what you believe about sovereignty actually makes a huge difference in your life. Not if, but when you experience something that in your mind you have to

quote unquote reconcile the grace and the goodness of God with whatever it is that you're going through. For me personally, this is two of my favorite quotes on this. A.W. Tosher said to know that nothing happens in God's world apart from God's will may frighten the godless

but it stabilizes the saints. Charles Spurgeon, the sovereignty of God is the pillow upon which the child of God rests his head, a night giving perfect peace. Jonathan Edwards did this thing as well on this topic because he said, hey, if you're going through something extremely difficult, he said, and you're a Christian, three things are true, and this is what you need to keep in mind. Number one, your bad things will always work out for good, Romans 828. Number two, your good things cannot be taken away. You are a son, you have the Holy Spirit, eternity with Jesus. all promises of God are yes and amen. You have the riches of God's glory for you.

Nobody can take that away from you. And number three, because number one and number two are true, the best is yet to come. Wow. So, interesting to tie this on a bow, and then I want to talk about this real quick. Ben Sasse, obviously, is dying of pancreatic cancer right now. And you want to talk about a guy showing everybody

how a Christian man dies. You watch Ben Sass right now. 16 minutes. That dude is going everywhere on every podcast in America, and it's blowing up, and he's getting access, and he is testifying to the goodness of Jesus Christ. In his, I think it was, was it on 60 Minutes, or was it with Ross Duthit on New York Times?

Both. He just 60 minutes released this week. Ross Dutthet, how do you say that? I don't want to say it. New York Times. He's a smart guy. Yeah, 60 Minutes is amazing. Somebody asked him about it,

and Ben Sasse's response was, there is not one rogue cell in the universe. He's dying of pancreatic cancer. He goes, there is not one rog's. And that's a comfort for him. Yes. Because he knows no matter what bad thing is happening to me, it's in God's hands and he can redeem it for something good. Amen. Amen.

Okay, can I riff on something on this passage? And then we're going to talk. So this is we're going to talk because this actually ties in, this passage ties in to some of the abortion stuff we're going to talk about that was a massive flashpoint online this week. And then we're going to gear shift again. And I want this Theo Vaughn thing. So real quick. somebody pull up, keep it up, Acts 23 real quick. Yep, I got it.

I want to read the exact passage. What I did with the sermon this week is Paul goes at the beginning of this thing. He goes, where is it? He's in Acts 23 and he says about his conscience. Look where he says. In verse one? Is it verse one? Yeah, yeah, there it is.

Verse one, that's a good place to start. He starts by going, looking intently at the council, brothers, I have lived my life before God in all good conscience. Now, this is the kind of thing your normal Bible reader will just skip and miss. There is a whole theology of consciences that Paul develops more than any other Christian author. So I'm going to do this in 120 second, two minutes. If you read Paul, he defines four different types of consciences. that somebody can have,

and that's really what is being touched on here. First of all, if you don't know what a conscience is, a conscience is the inner courtroom of the heart. That's how J.I. Packer talked about it, the inner courtroom of the heart. It's the moral courtroom inside of you. So here's the theology of it. In the same way, there's a courtroom in heaven

where God is going to justly judge the difference between right and wrong. The book of ecclesiaseasy says God has put eternity into the hearts of man. So just like there's a courtroom in heaven, there's a courtroom in your heart. Those courtrooms are not perfectly aligned. I'm going to talk about that here in a second. But that's the thing inside of even lost people where it's like, man, when I do some things, I feel guilty. When I do some things, I feel ashamed.

What is that? That comes from your God-given conscience because he's put eternity in your heart. By the way, I will say this. what you see with a lot of modern therapy is because a secular therapeutic worldview does not have a way to deal with guilt and shame. We as Christians, how do we deal with guilt and shame? It's like, dude, I'm looking at Jesus. He was crucified for my sin.

He has taken my guilt. He has separated me from my transgressions, and he has removed my shame. So when I feel guilty or ashamed, I can acknowledge that what I did, is actually deserving of guilt. And I'm feeling appropriate shame because what I did it was wrong. But I have a way to deal with that. I go, Jesus was crucified for this thing, man,

and he made me clean. Secular people have no way to deal with guilt or shame. So secular therapists, what they do, this is really important, is they spend all of their time trying to silence the consciences of people because they got no way to do with it.

So this is why you kind of get this vibe in modern, a lot of, not all of it, a lot of modern therapy that all guilt is bad, anyone who has ever made you feel ashamed, it was wrong and toxic, all shame is toxic, and you need to cut out anybody from your life that's ever made you feel ashamed.

No, that's actually not true. Like, sometimes you should feel guilt, and that's actually a sign of something good. Sometimes you should feel shame. That's a sign of something good when the conscience is calibrate. So really quick, four types of condes. Conscious. Number one, he talks about it here, a clear conscience. This is when you feel what God feels and you care about what God cares about. So it's like, I do bad things I feel bad. I do good things. I feel good. As the Holy Spirit is doing the right stuff in me. Okay. That's one. Number two, in Titus 1.15 and Romans 118, Paul talks about a defiled conscience. So this is when in the courtroom of your heart, you got a crooked judge.

and what a crooked judge does is he calls guilty people innocent and innocent people guilty. So if some people, their conscience, become so defiled that actually they feel good when they do bad things and they feel bad about people doing good things. Titus 1-15 says, to the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure because both their minds and their consciences are defiled. By the way, we don't have time to talk about it. This is what the New Testament means when it talks about how their God is their stomach and they glory in their shame. It's like, hey, man, some generations and societies get so defiled in their conscience that they start cheering, celebrating, and affirming wicked, degraded, and evil things.

They start throwing parades and having an entire celebration months for things that are actually like, evil. That's a defiled conscience. Number three is a seared conscience. This is 1st Timothy 4-2. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. So like if you're a steak guy, how many of a state guy? I'm taking Jan out for a birthday tonight. That's why I got a shirt with a button on and no hat. I'm a state guy. And what a lot of times what a good steak cook will do is they'll put that steak on a real, real, real high heat, real high heat. seconds on each side, six seconds on each side. And that exposure to high heat, it sears the exterior of the steak, and it makes it a little harder so that nothing can penetrate it, and it traps

all those juices in there. Sometimes if somebody keeps doing wicked and evil things long enough, it's like their conscience is exposed to this high heat long enough, that it becomes hard. And now the love of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit can't actually. actually pierce your conscience anymore so you get to a spot where you can sin and not feel bad about it at all. That is a very, very dangerous place to be. So I will just say this. Like sometimes I'll have people in a lobby where they did something. Honestly, usually it's an affair. And they'll grab me and they'll be like, dude, they can't sleep. They feel an agony over what they've done. And they'll feel such a conviction that's like, hey, man, I feel so bad. Like,

does this, this means I'm, does this mean I'm not saved? And I can't speak always to that. But I will say, in general, you feeling terrible is not a sign of you not being saved. It's a sign that you are. It means that your conscience is working. And actually, a sign of not being saved is not that you feel terrible when you do terrible things, it's that you feel nothing when you do terrible things. Wow. So that's a seared conscience. Now, we're going to, this dovetails was something that happened

and went crazy viral this week. I'm about to show you on full display, not only what an individual, but honestly what a large portion of our society has a seared conscience. All right. So this went crazy viral this week. This is a dude named Brandon Gill.

Is he a senator, congressman? Anybody know? I can't remember which one he is. Congressman. Congressman. When you first hear him, he sounds like a dumb frat guy. But actually, he's brilliant. I've seen this a few times.

I'm like, that dude is surgically brilliant. So here's this going on. He's got somebody testifying before Congress, and I think he's a Christian dude with convictions about, you know, life. And they're testifying about it's a pro-abortion. person. Watch what he does here. And one, you're going to see what a seared conscience in the person that he's questioning. Watch what a seared conscience looks like. And then I want to show you how Satan does this real quick. Okay. So pull that out real quick. Brandon Gill, you got Trinity. You're an advocate

for abortion for abortion policy. What's your favorite type of abortion? I am an advocate for patients having access to the full realm of reproductive health care. Pause, okay, real quick. Do you notice? Now, real quick, I want to show you a few things. Did you notice she's like, I don't call it abortion. I call it reproductive health care. All right.

Now check this out, dude. I want you to watch what, here's how Satan creates a seared conscience in somebody. So the Bible says Satan's the father of lies. One of the ways he lies is he packages evil things as good and packages good things as evil. So watch, you're going to see this constantly. it's this, you know, from high school debate team,

whoever controls the terms wins the debate. So if, hey, I don't want to call it abortion. I definitely don't want to call it murder. Let's package something evil in a good term. We're going to call it reproductive health care. And I will just say this is going to have a bit of an edge to it. Calling abortion health care is like calling rape lovemaking or like calling slavery job creation.

I'm just going to let that sit for a second. Now, keep going on. Check this out. Do you have a preferred method of abortion that you like? I do not. Brace yourself. I mean, read through a couple different methods, and I want to get your take on how much you like these.

The first type is called a suction abortion. This is when the cervix is dilated in a strong suction, 29 times the power of a household vacuum cleaner, tears the baby's body apart and sucks it through the hose into a container. Do you prefer that method? Watch your face. I stand by my former testimony. Keep watching her face.

That sounds kind of gross. She can't look at him. Sounds pretty gruesome. Do you agree? It does to me. I stand by how I answered your question. Pause, pause. Now what you're going to say, listen, if you're listening,

this is going to be hard to listen to. But what you're watching, here's what he's doing that's brilliant. He's tearing the mask off what the father of lies has covered an evil thing in a good term. He's ripping the mask off it and forcing you to deal with a moral reality

of what's actually happening. Okay. Now, keep going. Watch this. Accurately. Okay, what about this one? This one is called dilation and curatege.

After delation of the cervix, a sharp looped knife is inserted into the uterus. The baby's body is cut into pieces and extracted, often by suction. Do you prefer that method?

What I believe we are here to talk about today is the face act. I'm not here to talk about the seared. Chauvick, and I'm asking if you prefer. Seared. Dillation and curatech method.

I am access to reproductive health care advocates. Whoever controls the terms of the debate. Abortion itself. Why is that? I would prefer to talk about the reason that the committee called the hearing. Is it because it's uncomfortable to talk about? Watch it. Pause. She can't. She's doing everything

in her power to make sure the reality of what's happening is not stated. Why? Because that's what the father of lies does. Let me hide the evil and cover it over and package it with a sanitized good term, reproductive health care. Keep going. It should be uncomfortable.

I would prefer, if you would let me finish my statement, to talk about the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act, which is what I was asked to come back to get. How about this one? It's called delation and evacuation. Foreseps are inserted into the uterus, grabbing and twisting the baby's body to dismember him or her. If the head is too large, it must be crushed in order to remove it.

Do you prefer that method? That's tough. I would prefer to talk about the reason the hearing was called and the basis of my expert test. Keep watching her face. It's uncomfortable to hear this, isn't it? It is. You can tell she's uncomfortable. I think it is because it's barbaric and evil.

How about this one? It's called the saline injection. It's when a 20% salt solution is injected through the mother's abdomen into the baby's amniotic fluid. The baby's skin is burned off. The baby ingests the solution and dies of salt poisoning, dehydration and hemorrhaging of the brain. Do you prefer that method? I would prefer to talk about the subject of the hearing.

This is the subject of the hearing. This is about protests outside of abortion clinics. I'm asking you about abortion. I stand by my prior testimony. I wouldn't want to talk about this either if I were you because it is barbaric and evil. That is a seared conscience, and I will just say one thing,

Proverbs 836, all who hate me love death. That's what that is right there. That's what that is. So what you're seeing is when somebody can look a barbaric, evil reality in the face, and they're around it so much that they stop feeling its reality anymore, it's a seared conscience. It's a seared conscience.

And listen, that can happen to you. That can happen to you on anything, anything. Yeah, I remember reading a book by getting Paul Brand, I think it was a surgeon general. His specialty was leprosy. And do you know how leprosy patients die? They don't feel pain. That's right. the nerve endings die.

And so they could put their arm in a boiling pot of water wouldn't even know it. And so they literally die because they can't feel pain. Because pain is the sign to you that something is wrong with your body and that needs to be fixed. Guilt is to the soul what pain is to the body. There you go.

And so, yeah, to your point, it's like, I'm just feeling even heavy right now thinking about it. It's your point earlier, if you are not feeling guilt over these things, that's a dangerous sign. That's right. And I think that's,

That's where you're just, if that's, if that's anyone listening or watching this, maybe even just stop right now and say, God, awaken my heart. Search me, oh God. And, like, awaken these feelings. Convict me, show me my sin because that is a dangerous place to be. Man, let me, I cannot move on before I just say this. There was a lady, a pod listener that shot our team. By the way, all, everybody needs to know.

All of my social media accounts are monitored by tons of people. So I have no private DMs with anybody And she messaged our account And she had had an abortion And listened to the podcast She fell under conviction For what she'd done many years ago And dude, man, it was hard to even reach

She just said, she said, I did this and she was like I asked Jesus to forgive me Does that, but does that mean I'm going to hell? And man, if I'm her, if I'm talking to her, what I want to say is, hey, you are not defined by your sins anymore. That the Bible says that as far as the east is from the west, so has God separated you from your transgressions.

And that Jesus Christ was crucified for your sin. And what I would say to that person is actually you and me are not any different. Because I killed somebody too. My sin put Jesus on the cross. And it was my sin that held him there like we sing in the hymn. And so what I would say to you is that the same love that died for you on the cross is the one that separates you from that sin. Not only are you forgiven, not only will you be hugging Jesus in heaven someday, but when that woman steps into heaven, she will be greeted by the son or the daughter. She never met to the glory of God because he is sovereign over all things.

That's right. Now. Yeah. let's think just that when somebody you know when somebody gets an abortion they say you must die so I can live Christ said I must die so you can live that's right that's right well we'll do this one last one we're going to talk to that's right yeah the fourth type of conscience again hard left emotional turn is this is a big one for a lot of Christians I don't know why this is particularly particularly yeah a weak conscience it's first Corinthians

eight. It says, however, not all possess this knowledge, but he's talking about food sacrifice to idols should you eat it. But some through former association with idols eat food that is really offered to an idol and their conscience being weak is defiled. So he's saying, hey man, what a weak conscience is, is that person for a variety of reasons is when they do something that's actually not a sin, but they have an overactive, over-sensitive conscience. and their conscience tells them they sinned when they actually didn't do anything wrong. That's a weak conscience. And I will say, like most super judgy Christians you meet, it's usually they got a weak conscience.

And you know somebody has a weak conscience when they want to bind everybody else's conscience by their own. So whatever is the sensitivity level of their conscience, everyone else has to have the exact same sensitivity level. That's a weak conscience. So there you go, man. We don't want those. We want a clear conscience like the Apostle ball head. Well, speaking of that, I think Theo Vaughn talks about that in his video. That's why I want to talk about this.

Set it up. You want to set it up? Yeah, I mean, so this is a video from Theo Vaughn, a super popular influencer top podcast right now. Went viral, basically, where he took a moment and somebody asked him a question, and he just started opening up about his personal view on, you know, Jesus and, you know, how it applies to his life. And so, you know, it's like two-minute video, and we're about to watch it.

Dude, you watch, hey, I'm just going to say this. First of all, I love this dude. But I'm a rural Kentucky kid. Every time I see him, I'm like, that's like all my buddies in high school. I love this guy. I'd be friends with that guy. You watch, man.

Guy's going to save that guy and guys are going to use that guy. You watch, dude. Okay. So you tell me, Carlos, I'm going to let you play QB. There's part of me that wants to play the whole thing uninterrupted and then go back through. Let's do it. Okay.

We're going to play the whole thing uninterrupted because I want the emotional reality of it to land on you. And then we're going to go back and just real quick, I want to react to this sucker real quick. So here's the whole thing so you just feel the weight of what he's wrestling with. So he's not saved yet. And he is very clearly, God's chasing this guy.

What's that C.S. Lewis quote? Oh, he was writing to a guy who had questions about faith, and he said, God is after you. I doubt you'll escape. Theo Vaughn. God is after you. I doubt you're going to escape. So here you go.

Watch this. I don't know. I'm starting to just feel something different. And then I was also, I was looking on this Bible, and there's a story called John 5, and it's about a guy who's at these pools. And some people follow the Bible. Some people don't. That's fine.

This is just a story that I'm reciting here. And Jesus is at the pools and it's in Bethesda and they're like, there's a sick man there and he's been sick for a long time. And Jesus asks him, do you want to be healed? He asks him, do you want to be healed? This is a master class right here. And that's a crazy question because, you know, if I get healed, then I'm different. You know, if somebody gets healed, they have a new story. So that's just been something that I've been having to ask myself.

It's like, do I want to be healed? Do I really want something different? Sometimes a lot of the answer is no. I don't. I want something different, but I don't want to. I don't know if I'm scared of it. I don't know what I am. I don't know if I don't want to do what it takes together.

I can't even tell what it is. And it's hard for me. Some of this stuff is a little bit hard for me to say. I think I don't even know why. But I think I want a new story. That's it. Come on in. The water's fine.

Okay. Now, real quick, I just want to point out, what you are watching right here is a real life manifestation of what's called the doctrine of regeneration. New birth. Okay. That's what I think you're seeing the beginning of right there. Now, real quick, because the reason I want to do this, is we got a honestly dude we got a ton of dudes that listen to the podcast that are just like a guy

yeah it's your it's your lost truck driver who his whole life has been like man i don't you know i know all that god stuff's good for you but i'm really i don't read my bible i don't really know jesus yet but man something's happening something's getting on me while i'm listening to this pod you know what's happening that's what's happening so and i don't know why it's like this that's the kind of dudes that our church reaches. So that's why I want to walk through this real quick. And it's going to go quick. But start it back in the beginning, Trinity,

and I want to point a couple things out here. Okay, do it. Here we go. I don't know. I'm starting to just feel something different. Pause. What you're starting to feel different, my friend, is Ezekiel 36.

Behold, a new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you. So when somebody first starts, God starts working on somebody's heart. The first thing that happens, a whole bunch of dead things start coming alive. And dead people don't feel anything. When God starts making you, quote, alive in Christ Jesus,

the first thing that happens is you start going like, man, something's hitting different. It's like you're that dude that was, you were sitting in church, and for your whole life it was always super boring. And then you're sitting there, and then all of a sudden, you're singing the same song you sang 10,000 times before,

but you sing one line, and all of a sudden your eyes start sweating, and you're like, bro, I don't know what just happened. It's starting to feel different. Or that you were always falling asleep during sermons. And now it's coming to you with like the force of electric shock. I'm starting to feel something different. What's happening is new birth is starting to happen.

That's why Acts 2 says, Peter starts preaching. It says they were cut to the heart. Heart. God starts giving you a heart. Ephesians 2. Though previously you were dead in your trespasses and sins, God made you alive. I'm feeling something different. Why?

Because I used to be dead. have a dead heart of stone. And now I think I started to give me a heart of flesh. Oh, but I'm feeling some things. Okay, let's keep going. That's why I think's starting to happen here. And then I was also, I was looking on this Bible,

and there's a story called John 5, and it's about a guy who's at these pools. And some people follow the Bible. Some people don't, that's fine. This is just a story that I'm reciting here. And Jesus is at the, is at the pools, and it's in Bethesda, and they're like, there's a sick man there, and he's been sick for a long time.

And Jesus asks him, do you want to be healed? He asks him, do you want to be healed? Okay, pause real quick. So what he's doing here, he doesn't even know he's doing this. He's doing a theology of miracles without knowing he's doing it. So theologians have said forever that Jesus miracles are all sermons. That's why Jesus never. goes, hey guys, watch this and fly up in the air and do a backflip and then stick a landing.

And he never like in 30 BC, 30 AD goes, hey man, I'm going to prove that I'm God and snaps his finger and there's a cyber truck. There's a reason he done, because all of his sermons or his miracles are sermons. Well, what's the sermon? Okay. So this dude in John 5 can't walk. Okay, well in Genesis chapter 1, when we were, one and 2, when we were in a right relationship with God, it says that we walked with.

God and the cool of the day. And sin impaired that. And now it's like, man, because of my sin, I can't walk with God. So Jesus walks up this dude he can't walk. Wow. And he's like, hey, man, I'm going to make you be able to walk it. That's a sermon. That's the sermon about salvation.

Theo's thinking, doing a theology of miracles. You know what you know it? Okay, keep going. And that's a crazy question because, you know, if I get healed, then I'm different. You know, if somebody gets healed, they have a new story. So that's just been something

that I've been having to ask myself. It's like, do I want to be healed? Do I really want something different? Boss, I'm so proud of this guy. Like, if everybody walking in church was as honest as that guy, we'd be in a lot better place. Wow.

Okay, so check this out, man. So in John 5, the whole thing, I'll do this really fast. So the guy really does, Jesus asks him, do you want to be healed? And he can't walk. You may be going, why the heck what he asks at? Well, think about this, dude. If your whole life, you have, and by the way, we don't know the guy's name.

All we know is he was, quote, a lame man. So watch this. His issue became his identity. So watch this. If you're a whole life, by the way, you watch out because that's what Satan will do to you. He will convince you your issue is your identity. You'll start building your entire life to orbit around this issue you got. and if you're not careful, think about this.

This dude's whole source of income was my legs don't work. Will y'all give me money? Oh, wow. So if he gets healed, then he's like, well, how am I going to get any money again? Think about this. How's he getting attention from people? Hey, man, my legs don't work. Will you help?

So I know it sounds pitiful, but it's a reality how he got money, how he got attention, how he got sustenance were all based on him making his issue his identity. Now, dude, you watch it as a pastor. You see this all the time, dude. somebody's what happened to them as a kid or their addiction honestly man i'm going to say this in a straightforward way because me and jana have struggled with infertility forever we've watched people who they wrestle with infertility and then they make their issue their identity and it's like all they can ever talk about i'm giving you a gentle watch out all they can talk about is how i'm struggling

infertility and every social media post is about how they're struggling with infertility and and they're accidentally in the same place where, man, how do I get attention? What's my identity? How do I do my relationships? It all revolves around their issue became their identity. So Jesus goes, hey, man, are you sure you want to be healed? You sure? And Theo is getting it, dude.

He's realizing, hey, man, like that, this is legitimate spiritual insight he's happening. Man, if Jesus heals me, like, honestly, he's asking a legit question, I bet. man honestly like a lot of my podcast and a lot of my life revolves around some things that man if I'm going to follow Jesus in a for real for real way yeah it's going to have to change what's going to happen to him what's going to happen to all this stuff wow okay he's asking so the reason that's awesome remember what Jesus said if anybody's going to follow me they got to take up their cross daily and follow me and then he goes hey before hey before y'all follow me

in the same way that like if a if a due to send construction is going to build a tower he's going to like get the plans together and figure out how much it going to cost first before he starts to build it and he goes hey man he tells his people to do what theo's doing in this clip he goes hey man before he he started to follow me make sure you you understand what this may cost you and that guy right there with a holy spirit work on his heart is starting to go i'm a count to cost before i build the tower now i think he's going to land in the right spot but he's doing exactly what jesus said He should do. All right, keep going, keep going.

Sometimes a lot of the answer is no. I don't. I want something different, but I don't want to. I don't know. If I'm scared of it. I don't know what I am. I'm going to give you a watch out here. I don't want to do what it takes together.

I can't even tell what it is. Pause. Now, listen, here's my watch out. Like, if I was sitting down with Theo and I was like, hey man, would you pass from me real quick? Here's the watchout I'll give. He's gone, dude, I got to get all this figured out. and I need to make sure that I've checked every box

and that I'm in for everything before, you know, OS Hawkins is calling me, let me stop, before I go all in on this thing. Here's the watch out. As a pastor, I've seen this a million times.

One strategy Satan has to keep people from coming to Jesus is to convince them they've got to be perfect and have everything figured out before they do it. So that's the watch out. So here's all I'll do. When I was growing up, little Baptist kid, Carlos, you ever sing the song,

Come ye sinners? Yeah. Okay, that's like one of the best, that's like one of the best little hymns ever written. In fact, I'm going to tell the worship team we've got to figure out how to sing that sometimes. So here it is.

Here's verse three. Oh, you don't got to pull it up, Trenti. Here's verse three of come ye sinners. It goes like this. Come ye weary, heavy laden, lost and ruined by the fall. Listen, if you tarry, that's like an old English word for weight.

if you tarry till you're better you will never come at all wow so man what I would say is man I don't got to have anything figured out I don't got to have every question figured out I don't got to have my heart every single thing in the right place

where I'm like yep my heart's totally good I don't want to sin at all anymore you got to be willing to do what the guy did in the gospels where he goes hey man I believe but help my unbelief I'll be honest there are sometimes like for me I've been walking with Jesus for decades where I'll get to a spot where a sin sort of crystallizes in my life and I'll realize like, oh, dang.

And I got to pray in all honesty, God, will you, will you, God, I want to want to not sin. I'm not to the point yet. I'll notice that. Man, there's something wrong in my heart right now. I want to sin. Will you help me want to want to not sin? I just say, hey man, just bring your imperfect flawed self to Jesus.

And he'll fill you with his power and clean you up, man. So watch this. Here we go. It finishes like this. And here's the money line. Here you go. Watch. It's hard for me.

Some of this stuff is a little bit hard for me to say. I think I don't even know why. But I think I want a new story. Boom. And Theo Vaughn, you can have it. Because behold, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. And a new story has begun.

You don't got to do the things you used to do anymore because in Christ you won't be the person you were anymore. And what I would say is, watch out. It's not going to all happen at once. It's not going to all happen at once. All three of us were on this journey together. You got junk. I got junk. You got junk.

All of us got junk. But we pick up our junk and we bring it to Jesus every day. And we'll like, Lord, help me, cleanse me. Everybody checks the sanctification boxes in different orders. That's okay. Just keep following Jesus. And here's the last thing I'll say. He probably knows this.

But the dude's name is Theo. comes from the Greek word means God I think you're going to see Theo Von that's going to be a man of God someday and God's going to use it mightily there you go Amen Pastor Josh would you pray for us

I'd be honored Father thank you for your word and his power Father I just want to go back I want to pray for my buddy Kelly Gudro I pray that your grace would be with him in time of need as he walks through the valley

of the shadow of death I pray that he would fear no evil for you are with it. I pray that for every single person that's walking through any type of valley, this listening, that you be near to the broken hearted and you save the crushed in spirit.

Father, I pray that for all of us, that just like the Apostle Paul, we could say in all truth, I have a clean conscience, creating me a clean heart, oh God. I'm not a perfect man, but I want a clean conscience. And so, Lord, if there's anything

in any of our lives that we need to do, that you've told us to do, I pray that this week would be the week that we do it. We respond to you. Father, I'd be remiss not to pray for, I never met him, but he feels like a buddy. I'm going to go ahead and pray for Theo, that you meet him and give him grace in time of need.

And Lord, I just thank you. I just thank you for his honesty, vulnerability, and there's wisdom there that I think came from you. And so God save that man, redeem that man, and give us the grace of watching his new story in Jesus. name. Amen. Amen. Live free, brother. Live free.

Well, hey, live free nation. Thanks for joining us today. Hey, stay tuned this Wednesday, May 6th at midnight. We'll be dropping a special episode where Pastor Paul Cunningham will be responding to a video from Father Mike, who is our fellow contender in the Apple Podcast top charts on the Apocrypha and whether Protestants remove books from the Bible or not. You don't want to miss it. We will see you then. Thank you.