Live Free with Josh Howerton - Pastor Exposes DEMONIC Strategy to Replace YOU as a Parent | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: August 10, 2026

Who is shaping your faith—and whose faith are you helping shape? Spiritual maturity requires more than consuming sermons and Christian content. It grows through relationships with faithful believers who can model, correct, encourage, and walk alongside us. Pastors Josh, Carlos, and Paul unpack the relationship between Paul and Timothy, explain how to find or become a spiritual parent, and examine whether apostles still exist in the church today. They also respond to cultural ideas about parental authority and show why Christians must use Scripture as the lens through which they understand the world. In this episode, you’ll learn: Why your heroes and influences shape your spiritual direction What Paul and Timothy teach us about spiritual fathers and sons How to find a mature Christian who can help you grow How to become a spiritual mother or father to someone else The difference between the original apostles and apostolic ministry today Why parents carry primary responsibility for discipling their children How to recognize cultural arguments that conflict with biblical truth Stand firm. Think biblically. Live free. 💬 This week’s giveaway: Comment HAT 🧢 Want a Live Free hat of your own? Visit LiveFree.shop 📲 Looking to grow deeper in your faith? Check out the Lakepointe App to access our Discipleship Guide, daily Bible reading plan, and more. Text APP to 20411 to download

There's a difference between information and partation. You can get information anywhere you want. It takes the people of God to show you how to do it. More often than not, discipleship is caught, not taught. If anyone says that they are an apostle of the same way as Peter and Paul, I'd say, no, you are not. Well, hey, Liffrey Nation, before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas.

But the Liffree Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish. I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook and our church online platform and it's more than just watching a service.

There are a live host in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church or just looking for a place to start, church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point.

we would love to see you in the chat this weekend, and now enjoy the podcast. Let us get this big. Let us get this big. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode, another one of the live free podcast here. My name is Carlos Arraso, and I'm here with Pastor Josh Howardton

and Pastor Paul Cunningham coming to you from Lake Point Church in the beautiful city, Dallas, Texas. And today we're going to be talking about, we're going to be asking the question. Carlos, what are we going to talk about today? Hey, thanks for asking you. I'll allow it.

I wondered. I wondered if he would do it. Wow. Go ahead. We're going to be asking, are there still apostles in the church today? Self-proclaimed, included. Deep dive in the book of Second Timothy, and we're going to be asking, how do I actually find a spiritual father and a spiritual mother?

And we're going to be reacting to a video that went super viral of Ross Doubt that, talking to a Yale professor asking whether parents have a better idea of what's best for their children or not. You did a really good job pronouncing Douthit. Yes, you did. Good job, Carlos. I might have not practiced that name before. Before this recording. Bro.

That's a tough name to pronounce. All right. Hey, before we go into this, can I read an email from a listener? Please. Let me just tell you, you're not ready for this.

I'm excited. I'm just going to tell you, you're not ready for this. All right. So if you have ever wondered if the name of God has power, prepare yourself.

All right, so dude, this guy's name, Robert Moore, shout out Robert, lives in Delray Beach fighting cancer. So Robert sends this email. I'm just telling you.

buckle up. Robert sends this. So wait, you remember the episode we talked about Exodus 3, God revealing his name, Yahweh, and how some rabbis have interpreted the way that God reveals his name as like inhaling and exhaling. Duh. Yah. Way. Okay.

All right. So, dude, listen to this. I wanted to share something that I hoped you would share with the team because it helped me. I'm in Delray Beach with stage four esophical cancer and seven days out from an esoph- esophagectomy, I did my best. He said, ever think you're having a bad day? Read that research. I've thought I was going to die several times and last night was the worst. I was having a massive aphib attack and I only had a small portion of my breath left. I was dying with my heart cranking. In my panic state as he's dying, I realized you all had talked about the very breath we

have in a Bible teaching recently that I had seen. And then he writes this, inhale, exhale, way. I began to do that. It is not over-dramatizing to say it saved my life to get breathing again. And then he ends the email saying, I'll see you all in person by the end of the year. Listen, Acts 1725, he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. Bro. Shout out, Robert. I think this podcast is over, guys. I guess we can call that a wrap and we're done.

Thank you so much. Wow, that's amazing. Live free nation. Praise God. It is incredible. Speaking of life, well, a couple things. This episode is going to be a great one. It's going to be really interesting.

We're going to be asking Chad Gipal see a couple questions on being an apostle. Plist stump the old chatgy pussy. It's going to be fun. It's going to be fun. And also, if we have time, also, Pastor Josh, I want to give you an opportunity to debrief your experience with Sean Ryan. Yeah, drop. Episode finally dropped. That's right.

That's right. You did great. Thank you. You did really good. Agree. And I think a lot of people online agree. Thank you. Shout it to Sean Ryan.

We did not mention this last episode, but we have to celebrate this because we are crazy for now. We just wrapped up at the movies the week before. And we got some numbers. We had. How many, what did it end up at? So, 147,000 people attended in person over the last four weeks. That's right. With more than 4,000 people indicating a first time decision to follow Christ.

4,200 plus people. That's right. Stupid. That is stupid. Four weeks. In four weeks. I'll be honest. I never seen anything like that in my entire life.

And let me just go ahead and get ahead of it. We just spent the last few, we're going to get to this in a second. We spent the last few weeks reaching wide, and now we're going to go deep. And so we'll talk about this here in a second. second this week we start at legpoint boom yeah we did already like you did a great job that's right we started this week fight to good fight nine weeks we're in deep dive the book of second timothy it's going to be awesome and so if you were one of the 147 thousand people who came and hung out uh let's dive in and let's do a thing whoa whoa before we go anywhere can i tell you

can i tell you something having this week in the family okay now i'm going to tell you this and yeah i'm a little a little nervous to do this but i kind of feel like somebody's guys to do it. A joy and then honestly a bit of a problem. Okay. So this week, this week on, it was Saturday, we went to the 3 p.m. service. Now, it's back to 4 p.m.

We went to the 3 p.m. service last week. We hid at the movies. And then I took my kids over to the Forest Frank concert. So this was in Dallas and Arlington. So this is me and the kids, two of them, over at Forest Frank. This is pre-concert. Okay. Now, this was,

awesome but dude can i be honest it was great as a pastor i honestly had a little bit of a problem with forest oh and dude i don't like to do this but i just i feel like you got to do it and and here was my problem my problem is the problem with forest is that man is a problem for the kingdom of hell listen dude i'd have a little drama there that dude is a problem for hell so listen i want to show this this kid gets up. He's not a kid. He's a man of God. Yeah, yeah. He gets up. I want you to see this. I'm going to talk over it. So, Trinity just starts. So he gets up. This is not a mistake. Even with all of the lights and the music. Start his concert like this. Tonight is all about Jesus. You can be tuning our hearts to him. We're going to be

his name and giving him glory. He deserves all the glory, all the praise. Even now, I just want to invite his presence. So Jesus, you're so welcome here. Praise. Welcome's the Holy Spirit. That's awesome. Thank you for being. You can take that down. All the kids are going nuts. So Listen, dude, it was ridiculous. So we're at this concert, Forrest Frank, number one, he starts the concert honoring parents. The first thing he does is shout out, who are the parents in the room who brought their kids,

and he's cheering the parents. Wow. Number two, he's honoring his, like, it's all family. Like, his only concert I've ever seen, it's like wall-to-wall kids that are seven, and then I'm two rows behind grandparents with their grandkids, all stinking worshiping Jesus. everybody's going nuts. He's honoring the grandparents. The grandparents are honoring the kids insane.

He's treating children as blessings. The dude's young dad, he's got whole songs about how awesome it is to be a dad. So he's doing this thing. You just saw it guys giving glory to Christ the entire stinking concert, kneeling in front of a cross on the stage like glory up, glory up, glory up. Listen, it's not a word. They call it a concert. It's not a concert. It's the whole. It's the whole. It's the whole. It's the whole. whole thing is a worship service. That's awesome. And then, I'll go another layer. At every stop of his quote-unquote concert, he's bringing in some prominent local pastor. Now, you know, I got bumped by Philip Anthony Mitchell.

I was going to ask me. But which that was a good decision. He can preach. So it's like he's doing this. And then thousands of people are getting saved. Listen, here's my big takeaway. A Forrest Frank concert is not a concert. It's a move of God packaged.

as a concert. That's what it is. So here's why I'm just saying this real quick. We try to on Live Free. It's like tons of like dudes that are young dads that listen. Here's what I'm saying this. And we're going to talk about the Bible. One of the most important things a dad can do or a parent can do is you steward your kids' heroes. And dude, this is why this was such a big deal. I got my son and my 11 year old daughter sitting there and they're looking up to this guy they think is the coolest guy in the world. What's he doing? Honor and parents talking about what kids are glory up hands up tears down in worship all the things and that's who my kids are looking at and going that guy's awesome so if you're listen here's a shout out man if you're a dad mom young parent

one of the best things you can do you steward your kids heroes because kids end up imitating whoever they idolize so i'll just say something's got a bit of a bit of edge to it if you think that you're 11 year old or your 15 year old can be listening to taylor swift olivio rodriguez or that Sabrina Carpenter Jezebel girl think they're awesome and you think they're going to end up godly kids. Bless your heart. You're too dumb to talk to. Bless your heart.

Because your kids cannot idolize worldliness and end up at godliness. Steward your kids' heroes. Team Forest Frank. Come on, man. That's amazing. Team Forest Frank. Shout to Force Frank. That's awesome.

Hey. Whoa. Carlos. Tough. You saw a good movie lately. Speaking of heroes. I did. Look at that.

We're going to talk about the Bible. That's right. So I actually, I watched the movie The Odyssey by Christopher Nolan recently. I'm dying to see it. A lot of people are saying that this is probably the best movie he's ever made. So it's been to receive really well. So here's what I want to ask you guys. Is the movie The Odyssey a Christian movie?

Hashtag Live Free Nation. The answer is, Paul's like, uh, the answer is, no, it's not. It's literally a pagan epic poem. So it is not a Christian movie. It is an epic myth. But here's what I will say. A lot of people are noticing when you start paying attention

to the story and to the movie, it is inevitable to point out that there's a theme after theme after theme that ultimately points to something the Bible says is actually true and will happen. And at some point, it just points to who Jesus is.

And so let me just give you a brief overview. Spoiler alert. I'm about to give you a couple of spoilers and you cannot get mad at me because you got 3,000 years to read the book. Yeah, there's 3,000 your head start. Check this out. So The Odyssey basically talks about this king.

His name is Odysseusias. and he is a king who is also a warrior who fights this epic battle and he's returning home. In the movie, you have Odysseus' wife, Penelope. She is a faithful, loving wife who is expecting the return of the husband to come home.

The people of Ithaca are expecting their king to return and restore the kingdom. Some people in Ithaca, they forgot him about this king and so they rebel. He comes back and people do not recognize who he is. One particular woman does recognize him only until she sees the scars and the wounds in the king's body. Eventually, hold on, eventually the king comes back.

He separates the faithful and the rebellious, defeats his enemies, he restores the kingdom, and at the end of the movie, spoiler alert, he goes to his son and says, you are the heir to my throne. So that story right there, the Odyssey was actually, to give you a little bit of context, it was written 750 years before Christ by Homer, and to put it in perspective biblically, this is basically around the prophet Isaiah. Yeah, so 750 years before Christ, that's the story for thousands of years. This is the story that has resonated deeply in the hearts of people. There's something about this story that when people have heard it, they're like, there's something true about this story.

And here's why, because the Bible says that God has put eternity in the hearts of men. And every single human being in history, no matter what your cultural background is, ultimately longs for a savior, a warrior, and a king to return home. So here's what the Bible says. Jesus is the ultimate king and he is the ultimate warrior. The Bible says in Exodus, God is a warrior. The Lord is his name. Jesus fights this epic war.

He goes to a cross. He dies in our place. He defeats Satan sin and death. He resurrects. That's a win, by the way. And 2,000 years ago, he says, I am the king that is going to return. I am the king that's going to be back. And the church, the Bible says, is like a bride who is eagerly expecting the king to return.

the people of God are expecting the king to come and restore his kingdom. The Bible says that the kingdom is amongst us, but a lot of people will not recognize him. And when the king, when King Jesus ultimately comes back, he will separate the faithful and the rebellious. He will defeat his enemies. He will restore his kingdom. Those who are sons and daughters are adopted in him.

The Bible says that we are co-ares with Christ. And so here's the point. C.S. Louis said this, and I think he said it well. The Odyssey is a great example of a quote-unquote a myth that points to a true myth, a true story, which means that the Odyssey whispers the name of the greatest story in history, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the ultimate king, and the ultimate warrior. Come on, man. Come on.

So good. There is. There you go. Every story whispers his name. Amen. Amen. Pastor Josh, I have a question for you? I will allow it.

Why? Did it make it through the sermon? A lot, man. So let me just say, let's wind it up and tee it off. I'm really excited about this series. First of all, let me just shout out. Lifree Nation, if you are not attending Lake Point. person but maybe you listen online i want to encourage you um we just spent four weeks going wide we're

going to go deep for the next nine so we're going to deep dive the book of second timothy part of the reason for that is i just walked into 2006 feeling like uh i get away pray usually spend a little time fasting you just got to go lord what are the outcomes you want for your church this year walking in 26 i just had this sentence i am a disciple so literally every sermon series this year just hangs off the i am a disciple thing so why are we doing second timothy All it is is this an older Christian man, disciple and a younger Christian man. That's all this book is.

So I would say this. We'll have a link for you in show notes or the little deal. We got a little, I pushed everybody to get this a little crossway, Second Timothy journals where you can bring that sucker every week or when you sit down and watch a sermon, take notes, and then you're going to have that for the rest of your life. So let me do this real quick. Obviously, what you got in the book of St.

Timothy is it is, interestingly, not only is it written by the Apostle Paul to, I'm going to get to this in a second, to his favorite, Paul's favorite disciple he ever made. I'll talk about that here in a second. I'm going to do nine fast facts about Timothy. It'll be fun. It is also almost certainly the last letter Paul ever writes. So I will just point this out.

A few years ago I went to Rome, you can actually see the room in which this book was written. If you go to Rome, it's about a block from the Roman Forum. You're going to find, it's called Mamartine Prison, really interesting. I've mentioned it before. Most people walk past it, have no idea. It's even there.

I mean, it's like, you don't notice it. There's not even like a sign. It's just, it's just there. Like, okay. But Mamartime prison, you walk right in. And it is virtually guaranteed. That is the prison cell, Paul wrote 2 Timothy from. We know this for a few reasons.

That's what's called the Tuleanum. I'm going to talk about this here in a second. The Tuleanum was in a Roman jail. There would be one cell that was sunken. down underneath the floor. We'll get to this in a second. That would have been because it was underground, it would have been cooler than the above cells.

This is Italy. It's a little warmer, all the things. And that's where they would keep prisoners who were on death row. So church history tells us the apostle, it's a little mind-blowing. The apostle Paul was right there when he wrote Second Timothy.

Now, you may go, well, how do we know that he was there? Just a couple of fast facts. We are told in Second Timothy, Paul says that he was, quote, chained like a criminal. Keep that up there, please, Trinity. Chained like a criminal.

That is where prisoners were kept before a death row sentence. Paul, obviously, this is second Roman imprisonment. Paul gets head chopped off right after this. This is the prison that is close, it's the only prison that's close to the proximity of Paul's place of execution. So you got it right there.

Paul was a Roman citizen. This is where they kept a Roman citizen. So everything points to that being the one. Now, here's what's interesting. from 2 Timothy. We'll get to this later in the series. Paul says two things that make you go, daggummit, that's where he wrote it.

Second Timothy 413. Paul says, when you come, talking to Timothy, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas and my scrolls, especially the parchments. Now, it's a little interesting. People have always been like, well, dude, it's Italy, it's warm.

Why is Paul asking for a cloak? Well, that's the type of thing. Because he's in the sunken tulleanum that's underground. It's like being in a cave where it keeps room temperature is roughly ground temperature. So it's cool. So number one, you got that.

Number two, Second Timothy, 28, 9. Paul says, remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering. And then he says this, bound with chains as a criminal. And then I love this, but the word of God is not bound. I love it.

It's so good. I love it so much. Injected into my veins. Now, dude, here's what. nuts is to this day. So you already know this is the jail. Paul's at right before he, he experiences his death sentence. Now you know that's the cell he's in. Now there's only one spot. So in a tuleanum, you see it a little hole at the top. The prisoner that was on a death sentence would have been lowered through that little hole. That's the actual seat. The Apostle

Paul sat on when he wrote 2 Timothy and then bro when it says, bound with chains as a criminal. If you look real close, it's down and to the right of that little sign right there. There's two holes, bro, it's right there, two holes in the wall. That's the exact two holes where they would have passed the chain and the Apostle Paul would have had both his wrist chained through those dagum holes. So when he writes bound with chains as a criminal, the Apostle Paul is sitting right there writing that scripture. right there, dude. Wow. So it just like it kind of, you know, it just, it kind of drops on you like in a time bomb. And I will just say this. I just want to point this out, if somebody's in a spot

where you're in a season of life where it's like, man, life is hard and things are painful, when I look at that, I just want to point this out to you. You've never heard a single one of Paul's sermons, but if you're a Christian, you've read every one of his letters. God will redeem your pain. Amen. God will redeem your pain. Okay. Now, let me say a couple of quick things. Do I have time? Can I... You have time? Come on.

You got it. Paul, have you ever heard the theory that the Apostle Paul suffered from dwarfism? I don't think I have, actually. Okay, I'm throwing this at you. I didn't tell you I was going to do this. This is a thing?

Oh, I haven't heard this one specifically. I'm going to give you this. I heard this for somebody else. I heard he was short. That was a thing as usual, but not dwarfism. Okay, check this. I ran across this week. Now, I'm going to throw this at you,

and when I'm done, I want you to say if you're in or out. Okay. There's more to it than you would think. Yeah. All right, so check this out, okay? Number one, the average first century male in Rome was between 5-4 and 5-6.

So, you know, I'm not short, I'm just Roman. I'm 5-8, by the way. Number two, now check this out. So Paul's Greek name, this is not, I'm not just doing a bit here. Like, this actually will make you think. Paul's Greek name Paulos literally means little. And back then, they would frequently name people

after something about them, okay? Now, let's go, keep going. Number three, because of that, for a reason I'm going to show you here in a second, there are people who estimate Paul would have been between maybe four, six, and four, eight, and maybe weighed 100 pounds. Now, let me talk about why. This is actually kind of interesting, okay? So there's a second century text, second century equals the one hundredths, okay?

Now, by the way, I'm not saying I'm in on this. I'm saying it's interesting, and I want to see what you guys think. Okay. The second century text is called the Acts of Paul and Thetla. And so there's a person who said they saw, they were at a place where they saw Paul visibly. Here's how they described him. A small man with regard to height,

bald on the head, shout out, chatgy, Paul C, and then it says, curved in the legs. That's how they described the Apostle Paul. Curved in the legs. Now, those, there's a, I saw this online. there is a researcher guy's name is Isaac Soon, who he kind of pointed out. He was like, man, that's kind of a description of somebody with dwarfism. Now, but he takes a step further.

I'm out on this, and I'm going to tell you why I'm out on this, but it's still interesting. In Acts 9, Paul is said to have escaped Damascus. Anybody remember how? He escapes Damascus. Lowering in a basket. Lowered in a basket. Okay, this same dude, the Isaac Soon guy, he did some study on first century Roman baskets. And his conclusion was that type of basket could only hold somebody that weighed under 100 pounds.

So, okay, there you go. Now, and then this dude just did a couple context clues. Now I'm out. I'm just going to, I'm shoot you real straight. I'm out on this. I'm going to tell you why I'm out on it. It's interesting to me. Some people have gone, well, hey, dude, nobody has ever known.

What is Paul's Thorne in the flesh that he mentions? It's Second Corinthians. Yeah. Second Corinthians. What's the thorn in the flesh? There's something about Paul's flesh that bothered him. asked Lord take it away, he didn't take it away, what was that? Nobody knows. First Corinthians one, Paul specifically says, God has chosen what is weak in the world to shame what is strong,

seemingly talking about himself. Okay, so you start putting stuff together. Second Corinthians 10, if you Bible nerd out on second Corinthians, essentially all second Corinthians is these guys that were like super apostles, they were like, we're cooler than you and better than you and better looking than you and all this time. What Paul says about them is, here's what's wrong with these guys. Paul says. He goes, those guys are judging me by appearances. There's apparently something about Paul's appearance that made these guys go, yeah, like that, you got to be kidding me. That dude's not going to do anything. And then the same chapter says, quote, in, they're talking about Paul. It says, quote, in person, he is unimpressive. So, dude, so this is, this is one guy's

theory. Cards on the table. I'm out and I'll tell you why I'm out here in a second. But I just put it together and you start going you know of second century description short in stature curved in legs lowered down to the basket maybe 100 pounds there's all these little things make it sound like it was short so let me ask you guys in or out on the theory Paul may have suffered from dwarfism what do you think I think I'm out I've heard it before I have I have yeah I've never I've never heard it I was this many years old before I've heard it before I think I'm out but it's just uh I think it's plausible yeah it's just I'm not sure that the evidence is fully there yeah I've always heard he short, bald and ugly, which I'm like, dude, Paul, you should just, like, me wear a hat man.

And it's so funny. When people meet me in the lobby over here, like everywhere, I'm, they're like, oh, dear, I almost didn't even recognize you got your hat because I'm walking around like this. So I'm like, Paul just needed a trucker hat, man, that's all. That's hilarious. No, but I think I'm out as well. I put it just like, if you put them all together, it seems like a lot of circumstantial evidence that can kind of add up. It's got a bit of a Kansas element. It's got a little over there.

Why are you? All right. Why are you out? Here's why I'm out. I'm out for two reasons. One, basically all the narratives about Paul are written by Luke, who was a doctor. And I'm kind of like, I think he would have said something. There you go.

Very detailed. Very detailed. Look is super detailed. I think he would have said something. Good point. The other one, I did a little research on this today. And I just asked, I got to thinking, because at first I was like, maybe. So I asked, I asked Grock expert, and then I double-checked its answer.

Oh, wow. Can you ever tell from a kind of? context clue how far the Apostle Paul walked in a single day. Because I was like, dude, you see where I'm going with this. Yeah. Okay. I was, you know, I'll shoot you straight. So realities. So your best guess is we do know that Paul apparently from Troas to Asos, there was a time where either Paul did or was going to or said he was going to. And he was just going to. And he was going to meet him like the next day. They said they were going to say, oh, I'll just walk. And that was the night. He did the long preaching until like midnight. Uticus falls and dies and does all that stuff. And then you look it up. It's 20 miles from Troas to ASOS,

but if you measure the Roman road route, it would have been 30 miles. So apparently Paul was like, hey man, if I push it, I think I can walk 30 miles in about a day. And honestly, dude, I'm just, if that was his physical condition, it's hard for me to see it would have been a possibility.

So there you go. I don't think so. That's interesting. You guys, no? I'm out. I'm out. I think I'm out as well. Just for the record, I don't think anyone could listen to this and come to this conclusion,

but we are not making fun of anyone who has dwarfism. Of course. I just, just in case anyone could possibly be. This is more just conjecture because we've been doing research. It's like, oh, it's an interesting thing to think about. Of course not. Man looks at outward appearance, God looks at the heart. Exactly.

Of course not. Okay, let me fast fact things about Timothy. The whole sermon was about finding a spiritual father or a spiritual mother. That is something that few people ever experience in their life. Big deal. The people who do are never the same. So let me just let me fast fact some things about Timothy. So here's why we called the series Fight the Good Fight. The Apostle Paul, I'm going to get to this last out of my nine facts. The Apostle Paul takes a fatherless kid. I love this so much. He takes a fatherless kid and he goes, hey, buddy, I'm going to be your spiritual dad now. There are two things he says to Timothy. Actually, there's only one thing I'm aware of. He says to Timothy in both First Timothy and Second Timothy. And First Timothy, in First Timothy. he tells him, hey, buddy, I love this.

He goes, hey, buddy, fight the good fight. Fight the good fight. And listen to every man and woman listening, what the Lord wants for you is for you to leverage your life. Don't be passive. Don't sit by. Don't just watch life happen. He wants you to fight some fights,

but he wants you to make sure there's some good fights. And Paul looks at his son, and he goes, hey, bud, you got what it takes. Fight the good fight. And then, dude, I love it so much. Second Timothy, it's the last book Paul writes before he dies. And the last thing Paul says is, Hey, buddy, do you know what I did?

I'm getting ready to die. You know what I did? I have fought the good fight. Wow. And he's passively, he's going, hey, bud, just do what I did. I walked with you so that you could do what I did. So that's why we called the series,

fight the good fight. We want men and women of God to rise up in the spirit of God and fight some good fights. All right. Now, let me fast fact some things about Timothy. He's honestly one of the most underrated characters of the New Testament, in my opinion.

So first of all, number one, Paul meets Timothy in Listra in Acts 14. This is so hardcore. I love this so much, dude. I, this is the kind of thing like, I, it's the glory of sermon prep. Yep. I never noticed this stuff until this week, you know? All right.

So first missionary journey in Acts 14, Paul goes into Listra. That's where he gets stoned. Now, now listen, actually, I want to know what you think about this. Maybe you, if you know what I'm talking about. You'll know what I'm talking about. He's Chadgy Paul C. Okay, so. You're probably having to the idea.

You know your Bible. You know what Dissie. By the way, you should have heard Chad G Paul C. He told me the biggest burn. He's like, we're, you know, arguing a little bit. And he's like, bro, you have no idea how many times I could have corrected you before. Well, because his whole thing was, I'm going to ask you questions you can't answer. And I was like, I did not.

So I was like, I was like, I'm going to turn the tables. Every now and I'm talking and I'll see his mouth twitch. And I'm always like, oh, crap. I said something wrong, I bet. That's hilarious. All right, well, let's keep going. So, all right. So that's where Paul gets stoned and it says left for dead, but the Greek is ambiguous.

There are a lot of Bible scholars that think that Paul actually died and was resurrected. So we don't want to dwell on this. I'm just true, false. Did Paul die and was resurrected or was he left for dead? I think he was left for dead. Do you have a theory? I'm open. No, I just, I'm open to.

He could have. He could have. He could have. I just think he was left. From what I understand, the Greek's ambiguous. So either way, either he's stuck. But what do I know, you know, because, you know, I'm not sure. I was like, what do you know?

I'm kidding. There's like 10 jokes that ran through my head right there, and all of them were inappropriate. I used a filter. We got Bible verses for that. So, and Janet keeps telling me, you use your filter more often. So he gets stunned left for dead.

Now, this is what I never noticed. So Timothy would have been in Listra, the first missionary journey, watched Paul get stoned, and either killed or left for dead. And then on the second missionary journey, Timothy goes, I want to follow that guy. So I just want to say, like, dude's got some stones.

I probably should have used the, that's where you should have used my filter. He's got some courage in him. He's got stones on the brain because he was stoned. That's all that was. That's all that. That's what I was talking about. Thank you. Thank you for saving me.

So what you got there, so he signs up to join him. A common theory is that Timothy actually got saved on Paul's first missionary journey. And then on the second missionary journey, which was like a decade later, if I understand correctly, then he decides to join him. So that's first, fast fact number one. Fast fact number two about Timothy. Timothy is apparently courageous but also cautious. So you're going to notice all throughout first and second Timothy.

So he was that kind of guy who, it's honestly like me, man. You know, I can have a tendency to move toward conflict sometimes. And it doesn't bother me if I need to to do that kind of thing. But then there's also a thing in me where sometimes I'm like second guess. Should I? Did I do that right? Timothy was apparent like that. One of the most frequent things Paul encourages Timothy are things like this.

Hey, buddy, you have not been given a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power of love and of a right mind. Okay. So he's constantly, Timothy apparently had this thing where it's like, hey, I'm young, I'm going to get to this in a second. I'm young. I think I got it, but he had this thing. And I'll just gently say this.

This encouraged me. The most free, you guys may experience this sometimes. One of the most frequent things people will tell me, they'll grab me in the lobby and they'll be like hey pastor josh we're praying for you that you stay humble as always we're praying for you stay humble and first of all thank you thank you but i will just gently say like janet knows this my biggest struggle is not always humility it's confidence and you know very few people only the people who know me the best they text me me hey man i'm praying that you stay confident i'm pray so it just i love that timothy's spiritual dad was

like hey buddy you stay courageous it's good You stay courageous. All right. Fast fact number three. Timothy was the best disciple Paul ever made, and he said so. So this is interesting. Paul, in my opinion, Paul is the best disciple of Jesus. That's my opinion.

I think Paul's the best disciple of Jesus in the New Testament. Timothy was the best disciple of Paul. I say this from Philippians 220. Paul says about Timothy, I have no one else like him. It's interesting. So it seems like Paul was like, that's the best disciple I ever made. Okay. We know that fast fact number four, Timothy had a Jewish

mom and a Greek dad. So I'm going to get to this more in a second. Timothy came from a broken home, almost certainly a fatherless home, definitely a spiritually fatherless home. We know that from context clues. People usually miss it. I'll talk about it here in a second. So man, I do just want to say this and encourage you, if you're a dude or a young woman that grew up in a broken home, no dad, know this. One of the greatest disciples in the entire New Testament came from a house like you. Yeah. God can redeem it in the absence of the ideal. Grace abounds. Right.

So you see this right here. Now, I'll just say this real quick. I think Paul saw that in Timothy, Jewish mom, Greek dad, Gentile dad. And I think Paul went, that would be super helpful. It's kind of like if you're playing baseball. If you got a guy that's a switch hitter, he can go righty or lefty. It kind of doesn't matter. Is it righty or lefty pitching, he can kind of go either way, you know, that kind of thing.

I think he was like, hey, dude, this would be helpful because sometimes Paul was preaching the gospel to Greek Gentiles. And sometimes Paul was preaching the gospel to Jewish people. and the angle at which he took the gospel was different. And I honestly think he looked at Timothy and he was like, hey, Tim, hey, little Timmy. Honestly, this is going to help me out, bud. Thank you. You're going to help translate the gospel here.

All right. Now, you got anything you're going to say something? No, no, no, no. Let me keep going. Fast fact number one, two, three, four, five. Fast fact number five. This is very intimate and it relates to the next thing. Sorry, I just know where you're going.

Yeah, you know where I'm going. Paul personally circumcised Timothy in Acts chapter 16. I had a circumcision joke, but it was really long, and I would have to cut off the end of it. So I mean, just, that's a joke. We may have to edit that out later. We've had all just out at the end of the episode. No, we're not going to cut it. It's okay.

We're going to keep it in. I can't look at others. But get to the point. Get to the point. All right. That was what didn't make it into the sermon. That's a joke. You can, I just keep going.

Cut to the chase. All right, let me keep on. Put it down. Put it on. All right. I'm like sweating now. All right. So the reason for this, it's actually interesting is come back to the center.

I'm going back to the center. The reason for this is that I'm a... Okay. The reason for this is, so what's interesting is Paul had another, he had another traveling companion. What's great. Even if we cut it, people are going to come back to the video. I'm literally sweating. What's interesting about this is biblically significant.

It really is. Paul had another traveling companion named Titus who was also not circumcised. And what's, Carlos, hey, hey, man, grow up. I'm with you. Just focus on me. I'm a bag. I'm back. What's interesting is he didn't make Titus get circumcised, but he did have Timothy be circumcised.

And if I'm Timothy, I'm like, what the crap, bro? What are you going to be good to me? What? Which, by the way, in all seriousness, it shows you how sold out to the mission Timothy was. In all seriousness, it shows you how sold out to the mission Timothy was. The reason for this was, call us, you got to have a drink. You need a drink of coffee, by the way, for people who are listening and not watching it. Hey, you know what?

I got some control. Let's go. All right, all right. The reason for this was every time Paul was preaching the gospel to jupeachian. Jewish people, even though in the new, this is a whole covenantal theology thing. So for the Bible nerds, I'm going to have 60 seconds of Bible nerd moment. There's continuity and discontinuity between the old covenants and the new covenants. Both the old covenant and the new covenant have a covenant symbol. In the old covenant, the sign of the covenant with circumcision, in the new covenant,

the sign of the covenant is baptism. There's a whole book of the Bible that we're going to preach through in 2007 called Galatians, where Paul is. explaining the discontinuity and continuity between the old covenant and the new covenant, and his whole thing is, hey, man, circumcision is of no value anymore. Yeah. Okay. So even though under the new covenant sort of era, Timothy didn't have to be circumcised theologically, missionally, for the sake of evangelism, it was like a hurdle for

Jewish people to receive the gospel from a guy like Timothy because they were like, you're disrespecting our scriptures. So for the sake of that, Paul has him circumcised. Now, we'll point this out. It is, you know, it is like, wow, I never thought about that. Paul personally circumcised him. So there was a high level of intimacy in this relationship, obviously appropriate. But, you know, it's like these dudes, they knew each other.

Fast fact number six, Timothy is a young buck. He's a young dude. First Timothy, 412, that's the passage, let no one look down on you because you are young, but set an example on all these things. most Bible scholars assume that Timothy would have been in his late teens when Paul first takes him on his journey. So honestly, man, when you think Timothy think like 18, 20 years old, that kind of thing. I will just say this. If you're younger, this is the old J.C. Ryle quote.

What does Satan say to you when you're young? You're too young to serve God. It's too soon to serve God. What does Satan say to you when you're older? It's too late to serve God. So, man, if you're younger, I would just say this. It does not matter how old you are. you do not have a JV Holy Spirit.

Get a vision for your life that is massive. Ask yourself the question, what would I attempt with my life if I knew it could not fail because God was with me? And then attack that with a ferocity previously unknown to mankind. So get a vision for your life, okay?

So he's young. We know that. He's very young. Okay, fast fact number whatever. Timothy apparently had some medical problem. I think I'm number seven. apparently I had some medical problems. We know in, I think it's also second Timothy.

Paul tells him, hey man, drink just a little. He says a little. Drink a little wine. You got some stomach problems. Sorry, Baptist. Do whatever it is. Just a little wine, stomach ailments. You know, do your thing.

I think the Greek says grape juice for the Baptist. That'll help the Baptist. So we know he had some kind of medical problems how to do with his stomach. Fast fact, number eight, and then we're going to land on number nine. This is honestly, this is what led to the biggest part of the sermon. there was a very, a significant part of the first six verses of Timothy, second Timothy are devoted to Timothy's family.

He had a seemingly broken family. So this is what it says, I'm just gonna read it. It's awesome and it is a shadow that something not awesome was also a part of Timothy's life. So here's what says. Paul says, I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that first dwelt in your grandmother Lois, Lois and your mother, Eunice. By the way, I love this. What was behind one of the greatest

disciples in the entire New Testament, a praying grandma and a praying mama? That's right. I love us so much, man. So I will just say, if you are a single mama, so here's what I'm driving at. What's interesting is the faith of Timothy's grandma and mom are mentioned, not a word about dad. We never hear word about dad. What Bible scholars assume is either, like Paul mentions in 1st Corinthians 7, that abandonment from an unbelieving spouse was a biblically legitimate reason for divorce. A lot of Bible scholars assume that in 1st Corinthians 7, Paul is commenting on a situation like the mom's name was Eunice, like Eunice may have experienced where maybe imagine what if she got saved during Paul's first missionary journey.

Then her unbelieving husband is like, hey dude, like I'm actually kind of not in on all of the disciple of Jesus stuff. And over time, he leaves, because Timothy's dad is never mentioned here. So that leads me to fast fact last, number nine. In one of the most glorious turns of the entire New Testament, the Apostle Paul becomes what theologians have historically called Timothy's spiritual father. You study your New Testament's really interesting. there's tons of disciples of Paul.

There's only three dudes that he refers to as sons. Timothy, Titus, and Onesimus. He refers to them as sons. In fact, I'm just going to read it to you right here. In verse two, he addresses the letter to Timothy, my beloved child. And then for the rest of Timothy's life, Timothy just goes, you know what, man,

I didn't have a dad that showed me how to follow Jesus. And so what he did, he did what Josiah did, is he went, you know what, I'm going to find a spiritual father. I'm going to make that man my spiritual father. I'm going to get up real tight up to him. And then Paul becomes his spiritual father. Now, let me stop right there. You guys got anything you want to add to Timothy, second Timothy stuff before we talk spiritual fatherhood real quick. I just want to highlight what you said, Pastor Josh, that's a good word.

I think, you know, when I see like your story, for example, you are a third generation pastor. You have amazing dad come from an amazing lineage. that's just not the norm today. I think it's a statistic. It's one out of four boys are growing up in a fatherless home today. No, it's higher than that. It's higher than that.

They're a fatherless generation. I looked it up recently for a men's conference I did. It's somewhere around 40% of children in America are no longer growing up with two married biological parents in the home. So most people are probably listening, especially younger men are listening to this and they're asking, can God use me?

Like, you know, when I see Pastor Josh, when I see these great men of God, can God use me. The answer is, yes, he can. Yes, that's right. Yes, he can. Like, you, you are filled with the Holy Spirit. You are empowered to create a new legacy.

Another thing that I think is really cool. And I love this. This is first and second Timothy is one of my favorite books, both of them. Again, it's this, Paul is constantly saying, hey, Timothy, do not be afraid. That's right. Don't let anybody, you mention this. Don't let anybody look down on you because you're young. He's constantly saying, fan into flame.

Like basically, he's trying to cheer him up. And you can tell there's a couple fears. And yet, the spiritual father sends his spiritual son to go to the most difficult churches, the most dysfunctional churches, Corinth, Thessalonica, these are huge tasks. And again, there's this idea that whatever God has called you to do,

it will not happen because of your own strength or capacity. It'll happen. Actually, God's going to give you a task that's going to feel impossible to you on purpose so that when it happens, you will know it's not me, it's God through me. And so I think that's just a great reminder. That's right, man. So good. I don't know where you're going, so I'm going to be careful because I feel like I'm not accidentally stepping on some of the things you were going on.

But, man, because obviously, and you've already mentioned, in this, man, if you're a young person and you don't have that person in your home and you don't have that father figure, part of what we're asking you do is to seek it out. That's exactly right. This is why we want you in church. That being said, also, I would say this is that, man, speaking to some of the older men in our church or in the churches where you're listening from is like, man, Paul actually sought Timothy out. He saw Timothy and wanted to take him under his wing. So we also need Paul's to go seek out timeties who may not have that father figure in their home. So, man, I would just encourage you. May it obviously go where

with God is leading you, but I'd say like, man, this is why we need great godly men in kids ministry, student ministry, leading groups among adults here at Lake Point, serving and then with rooted and getting in rooted groups and leading those. Because there's a lot of guys who are going up without a spiritual father figure in their homes. And one of the beautiful things about the body of Christ is he can ask us to step into that and be that for them. Just an encouragement I wanted to give some of the older men.

I mean, you just nailed it, man. I mean, it's so here's, yeah, we want to talk about that. You want to talk about it? Does that what we want to do? Yeah. Are you done with the nine facts? Yeah. Okay. So let's ask a question, how do you find a spiritual father or a spiritual mother? And after that, we're going to be asking, how do you become one? Yeah, let me talk about this real quick. Let's riff on this. So first of all, I think I'll just say it like this. If your age starts, let's use Timothy and Paul as an example. If your age starts with a two, three, or a four, you need to go get one. If your age starts with a five, six, or a seven, you need to be. You need to be a be one. There you go. So that's just, you know, I mean, every age and stage of life, you can do this thing. But just in general, just lay it down like that. If your age starts at two, three, or four, go get one. If your age starts at five, six, or a seven, you need to be one.

And now, what's interesting, I'll just, if you're breaking it down, I'm going to, I'm going to show a picture of them here in a second. There's a, my, my, my, I was blessed to have my biological dad also be a spiritual father. I also have had men throughout my life that in addition to my dad were spiritual fathers alongside of my dad, if that makes sense. I'm going to show one of them here in a second. But if you kind of notice, if you watch Paul, there's really like, so actually, let me talk about getting one first.

So here's, if you're a younger guy, here's what you need to do. First of all, what you don't need to do is there's a difference between information and impartation. You can get information anywhere you want, anywhere you want, man. the precepts of God tell you what to do. It takes the people of God to show you how to do it. So what you need, man, is here's what you do. And I say this all the time. What you don't do is you don't get addicted to TikTok influencers, IG influencers,

YouTubers, and let them become the people who drive your life. Let me just straight. Here's the reason for that. Because anybody can curate an image on those things. And by the way, you know nothing. You know nothing about their family. You don't know how happy their wife is. Are their children thriving?

Do their kids love Jesus? How many generations deep do you see discipleship in their life? What does their friendship look like? They can hide all that stuff and just present on that thing. And what I will just say this, man, what some people do, especially like younger people, my generation is down, is what they'll do is they'll kind of go like, oh, man, that's not influencing me.

It's just entertainment. It doesn't influence me. I'm like, well, wait a second. They're literally called influencers. for a reason. For a reason. Yeah. So what Jesus said,

Sermint on the Mount is he said, hey man, if your eye is good, actually it wasn't Sermin on the Mount. He said, if your eye is good, then your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body is going to be full of darkness. What he's saying is if you want to change your,

if you want to change the outcomes of your life, you got to change the inputs into your life. The biggest input that will change your life is if you go find a spiritual father or a spiritual mother. So here's what I tell you to do. And then I want to hear what you guys say, and I want to talk about being one. Here's why I tell guys to do it like one all the time.

So there's that verse that says God has given you everything you need for life and godliness. Here's a dumb thing, smart Christians believe. They think that verse is talking to an individual you. Hey Paul, you have been given everything you need for life. No, no, no. That verse was not written to a person. It was written to a church.

And we can't see this in English. In Greek, the you is plural. So you individually do not have everything you need for life and godliness. No, no. You as a church have everything you need for life and godliness. What you need Paul to grow up into the full measure and stature of Christ Jesus, you don't got it all. It's in other dudes in the church whose ages probably start with a number one or two digits

higher than your age. They've been walking with Jesus for a couple more miles than you. And then what you need to do is Book of Proverbs, what's the first thing we do about wisdom? You go get it. So if you're a younger guy, here's what you do, man. You walk in a church, I say this all the time. You walk in a church and you come 15 minutes early.

And it doesn't matter what church you're going to. You come 15, 20 minutes early. You stand in the back. And here's what you're watching for. You're watching for some guy whose age starts with a 5, 6, 7, or 8. He walks in with his wife on his arm. His wife looks happy. She's smiling.

They usually get there early. They walk in arm and arm. They sit down and then you stay in the back. Stay in the back. watch that guy you're looking for the guy who they walk in they open their bible they're sitting there they're worshiping they got their hands in there they clearly love jesus honestly you're looking for him like he's got his arm around her they're a little hands eater in the service even though their age starts from five six seven or eight they can't keep their hands off each other they love each other and here's what

you're watching for a guy whose wife is happy they love jesus the wife is happy then you do your little homework and you find out whoa that guy has kids that love jesus and love him and then what you do is as soon as you find that couple, you walk up to them and you say something like this. You say, hi, my name is Josh. You seem good at marriage and we are bad at marriage. Can we take you out to lunch and ask you questions about how to be good at marriage?

And then you just, you take notes on what they say and then you do it. But basically, you just seek them out and you're like, hey man, download it to me. Download it to me. That's great. But the difference between people who become great disciples and great men or great women is you,

usually who had a spiritual father or a spiritual mother and who did not. Anything else you guys would say on if you're the younger guy or younger girl on seeking it out? I feel like you did a great job at this. Yeah, I think. Yeah, you're amazing. He is amazing. More often than not, discipleship is caught, not taught. Yes.

Right? So when we talk about discipleship, we usually think, and it is, there's a sense of which discipleship is where you learn something from somebody else. And so you're receiving knowledge or information that eventually will result in transformation in your life, that is true. But when you look at the discipleship you find in scripture, more so it's like, hey, let's do something together and you watch me do it and let's move into the same direction. And so what I would say very practically, similar to what you said, Pastor Josh, you find a local

church, you find a group of people that are doing something that you think I can be a part of whatever they're doing. And then you go to those people and you say, how can I help? And I got time. I'm here. I'm not asking something from you. I'm trying to help you do whatever it is you're already doing. And then I'm not asking you to make room for me in your schedule.

I'm asking you to include me side by side next to you in your schedule. And then you do that. You help. You're helpful. And then you just literally like learn around you. So by spending time with people that are older and godlier, what you do is, yes, there's a time for you to ask questions. And obviously that's important.

But really, man, you just like open your eyes and then just observe. Oh, that's how they, you know, he talks to his wife. Oh, that's how he loves his children. I could do that too with my wife or I could, you know. And then you just do it over and over again. So you join a mission, move in the same direction, and ask, how can I help? That's it, dude. Only the things I'd add is, man, let's say if they tried that and they have struggled,

then find a guy who knows the guy. It's like, I don't always, like, even just think of like, if I need to fix something at my house, I may not know someone, but I know people who know the people. And so in the same way, I mean, you go into a church, man, this is a great thing. If you're not very well connected yet or you just, whatever reason, man, go to your pastors and just say, here's what I'm looking for. Can you point me in the right direction? then you're going to have to take some ownership.

And I'll get to that in a second. But I'd say, like, yeah, just find the person who knows this person. I see you do this all the time when you're in the lobbies. And people come up to you, and sometimes they won't prayer, but sometimes they're looking for advice or counsel. And you'll give them some initial stuff. But all the time, I'll see you grab another staff person. And that's our job of staff as part of it,

is we're trying to connect them to the people that they can help them take their next steps. And by the way, this is not a random plug. Like, we're trying to help you. Yeah, serve to 20411. This is literally what we do. We just, we help you find where you can best serve alongside other mature guys. believeers that can help you in your life. And that's funny because that was going to be another tip I gave in a minute is, man,

if nothing else, if you're like, I'm having trouble finding people, start serving, put yourself in places where you're more likely to find those people and eventually you're going to find them. But I will sometimes. Bro, that's huge. It's really big. What you just said, fish in the right pond. Yes.

Like all the best disciples, they're serving in ministry. They're leading somewhere. Honestly, here's what they usually are. They're leading a life group. They're leading a root a group or they're, it's, I'm talking about dudes especially. They're serving in kids and students. Yes. I'll just say that more time.

They're leading a life group. They're leading a root of group. They're serving in kids and students. And the reason for that is because the mark of a parent, like biologically is they do what they reproduce. That's right. So the mark of a spiritual parent is that they reproduce. So go find people in those environments who are doing that. Those are going to be the people that are generally more mature.

I will say just as a final encouragement is that, man, that means that you're going to have to put yourself out there. Yes, right. And so now this isn't true. I know of every church, maybe the people listen to us, but at a church like Laypoint, which I love our church. but if it's really of a big size, the easy default thing to do if you're not connected is just to slip in on a weekend,

attend, sit down, leave, and not talk to anyone. So I will say this means you are going to put yourself out there, believe that God is going to put you with the right people, take a step and get connected. Well, hey, guys, as you know, Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Christ, live free, and change the world for God's glory.

But here's the thing. Movement, by definition, move. And so if you're not moving, then the question is, are you really being a part of the movement? In fact, somebody once said that too many churches are like football games, 22 people on the field in desperate need of rest, being watched by thousands of people in the stance in desperate need of exercise.

Hey, listen, we refuse to be a church like that. And so if you call Lake Point Church your home church, and if you have not yet joined a serve team, I want to invite you to take your next step right now. Text the word serve to 20411, and we'll help you find your spot where you can serve in. person or online on whichever serve team you are being called to serve. Hey, thank you for being obedient to God's calling in your life and let's keep doing this together. Yeah. Let me give a,

so I'll give an example of this. So we toss that picture up there real quick, not the video of the picture. So this is, this is me without a shirt on when I'm 16 and it's intentionally cropped. Uh, so this guy, I'm just going to like that guy right there, uh, that guy right there, his, that's, his name is Jeff Carlisle. Jeff was my. Jeff was my. youth pastor, former military guy. When I was 16 years old, that's right around the time, you know, I'm one of those guys, Denver, Dimmer Switch, Not Light Switch, Salvation. I'm like, how did you get saved when you're younger when you're 16? I think when I was younger, but Jeff, when I was 16, he was like, hey man, can I disciple you? And so every day, after school,

I'd hop off the bus until I got a driver's license and I would walk. I would walk. It was about two miles over to church. I'd stop by O'Dellies and get a little sandwich and then walk over there. And Jeff would just study books of the Bible list. Not that burrito place that we went? No, not that place. No, this was in Bowling Green Kentucky. Oh, okay. So Jeff Carl, that was it, just, I mean, that was it, just disciples me from the time of 16 until the time I went to college. And Jeff, my dad, my biological dad, was my spiritual father. But I also had this guy. And dude, I will say this, man, like all the best disciples, they always can tell you the names of the Christian men

who invested in them when they were young. If you are, listen, this is not what this pot is about. If you are a parent, arguably the most important thing you can do is consistently put your kids in environments where they relationally and emotionally attached to other spiritually healthy adults. So that what that does is you're like tying little strings to people all over the world

so that if your kids ever wanted to try to walk away from Jesus, they ain't just walking away from you. I would have had to walk away from my dad and from Jeff Carlisle and Mary Beth Carlisle and Tommy Johnson and the five other guys that disciples me and the coach I had that was a Christian. So good. So it's like, that's what happened with me.

And dude, I'll just say this. That one guy, Jeff Carlisle, he's, you know, got out of the military, started studying the Bible, became a pastor, still a pastor. That one guy right there, I was saved under his ministry. I was disciples for two years. I was called to ministry under his ministry.

That's the first guy that ever asked me to preach anywhere, Jeff Carlisle. I was 16. He was like, hey, dude, I see it in you. He's the guy who was like, I just, it was like a 10-minute thing. And when I was done, Jeff walked up and was like, hey, man, there's something on you. When you talk, people, listen. So first guy to, I'm going to talk about that here in a second. First guy to ever ask me to preach, encourage me in it.

And then that's the guy that set me up on the blind date with Janet. No way. Yes, dude. So listen to this. Out of one spiritual father, saved, disciples, called to ministry, asked to preach, got a wife out of the deal. Wow. That one spiritual father. Now, this is how, this is just like, I'm giving you a vision of what spiritual fatherhood looks like.

So last week, after the Sean Ryan episode drop earlier this week, one of the first people to text me. That dude hadn't been my youth pastor in, I don't know, how old am I? Like, it's been like almost 30 years. Yeah. One of the first people to text me, toss up that text, Jeff Carlisle. Bye. He's like literally, as soon as the episode drops,

my youth pastor that was my spiritual father from the time of a 16 year old, 16 years old, proud of you for how you represented on Sean Ryan show that had to be special. Amazing. That is a spiritual father. Yes.

That's not just like a, oh, that's a volunteer. That's a spiritual father. Okay. Now, let me just real quick, do this little thing on what spiritual. We want to talk about what spiritual fatherhood looks like. Yeah, yeah.

Let's do that. And then you're going to answer our apostles still a thing today. Any other, because we said, how do you become one if you, you know, just go find one? Yeah, we got it. Great. And I will just say, plug, like, what you need to do is like that's why we're pushing rooted. The rooted 10-week discipleship deal.

So how do you find a spiritual father? Those guys, they're leading rooted groups. So if you're at Lake Point, I love you. are insane. Like, something is wrong with your brain if you are not moving into the root, because guess who's leading those things? Spiritual mama, spiritual daddies. That's right. So if you want to join, X-Rood at 2-0-4-1, we'll help you out. That's right, at like point. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'll just do this real quick. We'll curb this thing. And then I want you to start talking about, are there apostles?

I keep thinking you're going to name drop people, and I'm like, I'm getting nervous. I'm like, I can't wait. And then we're going to try to stump Chashy Baltea. It's going to be awesome. Okay. So I'll just say this. Like if people are gone, man, so what is, what does spiritual fatherhood look like or spiritual motherhood look like?

So let's say you're a Christian whose age starts with a 45, six, seven, eight. And you're like, man, okay, I want to do that. Three words, impartation, exhortation, affirmation. Okay. So impartation, that's follow. Paul says to Timothy, he goes, hey man, follow me as I follow Christ. it's not just information transfer. It's like hands on.

He's like, hey man, remember that time I laid my hands on you? And we traveled together for all those years. So it's life on life. That's impartation. Exortation is just, hey, dude, do this, not that. I mean, the whole book is just him in, here's how you be a godly man. And I will just say, for spiritual fatherhood and spiritual motherhood, sometimes you're going to need to actually do some just mom and dads,

hey, here's how you make a budget. Yeah. You know, it's like, hey, nope, nope, don't try to get that mortgage. That's a bad idea with your income. Like, there's some stuff like that, you know. So you got that exhortation. Especially this young generation. Hey, here's how you talk to a girl.

Yeah. Here's how you tie. Here's what you wear to a job interview. You're going to need some of that stuff. Okay. And then last one is just affirmation. And that's like Paul's stuff like, man, Timothy. I love you like a true son in the faith.

you know the father says to the son this is my beloved son in whom i'm well please now let me just wrap this up uh so let me let me show you a physical example of this okay so this is you're going to see all these three of these things impartation exhortation affirmation now heads up i don't think either of you've seen this video i'm going to warn you right now you ain't ready i'm just going to tell you right now you ain't ready so if you want to see a visual representation of spiritual fatherhood in the biological realm. Okay. So here's what you get ready to see.

This is, this, uh, I caught this few years ago and I saved it. It's an 11 year old who's sitting in a stick shift truck with his dad in rural Utah, dad's a military dad. And the dad is teaching his son how to drive a truck.

And I want you to watch for impartation, exhortation, and affirmation. Now, your eyes are going to sweat. You ain't ready. Okay, watch this. Look at you, keep the gas, keep the gas, keep the gas.

Keep the gas. There we go. No way. Now we're going to speed it up a little. Just, nope, keep on your at, keep on the gas, keep on the gas, keep on the gas. All right, ready? Watch your face. We're going to go clutch, off the gas and push the clutch.

Exortations. Off the gas, push the clutch. Nice. Now you're going to go up to third. Up, over third. Now gas. Even transverse. Ready?

Go, go, go, go. Wait, wait. Wait, wait. You got it. Right there. Keep going. All right. All right.

Keep going. Keep going. So you got a car to your left. All right. They're going straight. Keep going. Keep giving the gas. Keep giving a gas.

All right. You just keep driving in a circle. You're good. All right. Listen, if I don't make your eyes sweat, you don't got a pulse. I got a pulse. But you want you to see.

You saw three things. Exortation. Hey, buddy. Now's it time to shift. Clutch now. Hey, you got this, bud. Just turn a little. Impartation.

I'm in the seat right next. He's putting his hand on his son's shoulder. Hey, let me help you turn it a little bit, bud. It goes like this. Hey, shift like this. Impartation. And then affirmation. You got this, bud.

You got this. You're doing such a good job. And what you're going to notice is there's a thing that God has put in the heart of every man, when fatherhood touches his soul, it's like tears start to leak out of his eyes. And the son just has it bubble out of him. I love you, dad. And dude, I'll tell you this. I watch that video and I'm reading Second Timothy. And one, I'm going, that right there is what your heavenly father is like with you. And when you feel the love of the fatherhood of God, it's like love for the father just bubbles out of you, I love you, dad, because you were touched by

the fatherhood of God. But what's interesting. is if you read Second Timothy, it's like such a visual illustration. You read Second Timothy and in verse four, Bible scholars, they like debate this about what is he talking about? Because Paul just says, he says to Timothy, he's like, hey, buddy, it's like you're talking to the spiritual

and says, hey, buddy. And he says, as I remember your tears. And this is really interesting. People debate, I wonder what the tears were about. Here's my, everybody's got a theory, I got a theory. I think when Paul talks later about the moment when he, when he laid his hands on Timothy

and spoke a blessing over him. And he's like, you received this gift through the laying on of my hands. There was a moment in little Timothy's life where his spiritual father, when he didn't have a physical father, put his hands on his spiritual son's shoulders, looked in his eyes and he said,

hey, bud, you've got this thing in you. God did this in your life. I think Paul, as a spiritual father, is going, in that moment, something broke open in your soul, just like it did in that kid's eyes. Tears start to flow. Why?

Because the heart of a spiritual father erupts in the life of a spiritual son. I think that's what you're seeing right there. So those are the three things. What's it look like? If you're going, hey dude, I want, if you're just going, I want to be this for somebody.

And I got some guys in my life where I'm like, I'm kind of trying to do this thing. You're looking for those three things. Exortation. Do this, not that. Impartation. Follow me as I follow Christ. Let's get up life on life.

Come sit around a fire pit with me. Hey man, why don't you go? Like, I do this a lot. Hey, man, I'm preaching over in, you know, preaching over in Virginia. Why don't you come with me? Hey, man, just come with. Come watch how I do it. Impartation.

Affirmation. Hey, man, God's got something on your life. That is spiritual fatherhood. That's a great word for spiritual fathers and also for biological fathers. Amen. Not how to handle yourself with your children. Amen. That's great.

All right. That's all I got. Now, here's what I want to do. Can we have a theological debate and chat? Paul T. solve it for us? Yeah. Okay. We're going to apostolship. Oh, I was like, I do know. Speaking of the laying on the hands. Now, what this passage does, so I want to talk about this. Yeah. In the church today, this is a hard emotional gear shift. Yes, it is. I was like, I thought it was a trip. Let's bubble nerd out here for a second. Yep. We're going to Bible nerd out here for a second.

So there is a word that's thrown around in the modern American church frequently. And it's used in a lot of different ways. And honestly, man, I think normal Christians will sometimes get confused, hey, what does that mean? It's a word that's in Second Timothy 1-1. Paul describes himself as, quote, Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God according to the promise that is in Christ Jesus. An apostle of Christ Jesus. Now, here's the question. Chagy Paul C. Yeah. Are apostles still a thing today? A lot of people do not realize this is happening to them, but it is. That word, there's basically about four different views on what is an apostle. Are there still apostles today?

Is that office still a thing? This is, actually, I'll just let you take it from here. I'll answer the questions for it. Yeah, a few things that I feel like it's helpful to set up. And then I will walk us through the four views. And I've even got a table for you. I know you love a table, good table works hard. And I think this would be a good thing, by the way, to show people so they can follow it home and you can go download it.

I think we'll have it in the guide, right? That's right. That's right. First, just about what the term apostle means. It literally just means one who is sent. Apostello is the Greek word, verb for to sin. So think Jesus says, as the father has sent me, now I am sending, I am apostelowing you. An apostle is the one who is sent.

So it simply means the one who is sent. Now, often it's probably the thing that most people think of is that referring to. to the 12, you know, Jesus' is 12 disciples. Later, Judas is obviously takes his own life and is replaced by Matthias. We think of the Apostle Paul. So 13. Yeah, also 13. Some of the though would say from Galatians 1, you get

James, who seems to be referred to as an apostle as well. So some people would say 13. Some people would potentially say 14. I have never noticed that before. Because it says in Galatians 1. James, the brother of Jesus. Yeah, because he didn't see any of the apostles except for James. Interesting. So that's why some people would say 13, 14, you know.

I never put that together. Okay. Yeah. But a lot of times people think of them, but also this word is used in other places in the New Testament where it's not referring to those people. So, for example, Philippians 225, I have thought it necessary to send you Epaphroditeus, my brother and fellow worker and soldier, your messenger, the word is apostle, your apostle and minister to my need. He was an apostle to them because he is being sent by Paul. He is one who is sent by Paul. St. Corinthians 823, as for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker for your benefit. as for our brothers. They are messengers. That word really is apostles of the churches.

Now, they are not really thought of, oh, these are like people that are in the same par with Matthew and John and James. No, it just means these guys are being sent from the church where I'm coming from. They're coming to help. So what makes this tricky is this same word can be used in multiple ways. But that being said, they're really with the debate over it. When you say in multiple ways, you're talking about office and function? Yes, they can be used as an office or simply as a function. Oh, we're calling these people in apostle because I'm sending them to you. But when they read this, they wouldn't have thought, oh, they have the same authority as Peter. They wouldn't have thought that. It's simply,

oh, Paul is sending them. He called them an apostle because he sent them. It was just a normal Greek word. Exactly. And that's where there is, I was once taught by a professor, talked about how you got to think, especially in New Testament Greek, not just definitions, but usages. How is this word actually being used in this specific verse in this specific context? That being said, the debate here is over, well, hey, are there apostles like? Peter, like Paul, that have more of it, a truly authoritative since today. There's four views. Let me just say, I'll just go ahead and this may, it got a bit of an edge to it. I don't, I hope you go ahead and say where I was going to go. You will sometimes, especially in more, I'll just,

I just kind of say it. And I love like, dude, my charismatic brothers and sister is like, dude, like some of my favorite people I hang out with, in some of the more, like, hard charismatic circles, especially you get over in like oneness Pentecostal. You get into some of the NAR stuff that I don't know if you're going to go there. But there are people who will refer to themselves as, you know, Apostle Benny Hen or I don't know if he calls himself that. But does he? Does he call himself?

Somebody look that up. I don't know if he does. But you'll get people who are like they, and it seems like they're using it as an office. Yes, as an office. I literally went and watched a clip of a guy who basically compared himself to the appal. Okay. That's important. We never want to say something false about somebody.

Now, other people may refer to him as that way, but he doesn't refer to himself. that would be that I was watching a video of a guy the other day for kid his name it basically said i'm an apostle like the apostle paul bro and you're just and i'm just going to go ahead and say we'll coach the chase 99,999 times out of whatever the bet it is run run if you hear people say that run i'm a little curious why you're not saying 100% of it because i feel like maybe somewhere out there there's someone i don't know that maybe they just don't know any better i don't know no yeah i'm gonna say it 100% of the time run and run for the hills even if you can find a great

tweet from them or something that sounds good. There is something in there that is not good run for the hill. So that's the question. There's four main views of this. Actually, we got a chart that I'll walk us through so we can keep this a little faster. All right. So there's four views. I'll say the views. And then I'll actually go through and really kind of get the positions and their arguments for them. So you have what's called a closed office view. And that's the idea that the office of apostle is done. Their authority now continues through the faithful reading and proclamation of the scriptures. A second view is it's a continuing office. As you said, a lot of times, this is more in hyper charismatic circles. Not all charismatic circles. That's right. I was actually reading and prep for this.

The Assemblies of God, I think on their official website basically says, we do not see this as an open office. Oh, interesting. We see this. Number three, they see it as a continuing ministry. Ministry or function. Yes, exactly. Ephesians 5, Apest, God has given apostles, prophets, evangelist, shepherds, teachers. Okay. So they see it as a continuing function. Yes. And maybe almost a spiritual gifting, but not an office. Missionary pioneers, church planners, people who can lead spirits of movements, but they would not say. Explain the difference, Pastor Josh, like office and function. So how is it a function, but not an office?

Yeah, so office would have been like, hey man, there's only, you know, when New Testament you have 13, unless you're counting James. Which, by the way, that's a, I need to think about that really quick. So there were 13 dudes. Those are the apostles. Yes. They're in 14. They're in 15. That's an office. That's an office. These guys are the official. And then a function would be, I'm sure you're going to get to this, how I will sometimes use it. And we may see this differently, but I'll kind of go, hey, man, big A apostles is the office. Little A apostleship would be a spiritual gifting. Think of it like this.

Oftentimes the word apostle in this culture was used as an official representative of someone so that if they say it, it is as if the person who sent them is saying it. They have the same, in a sense, level of authority as the sender. And so that's the idea is that as the apostles, the 13 or 14, that we're talking about as they were writing things, when people received it, it was as if the Lord Jesus himself had told them to do it. There was no wiggle room.

So it was an office. You had to submit to them. Whereas we'll get to in a minute, that's not the case today. That's not the case today. So closed office, continuing office, continuing ministry, which is kind of the idea that, man, we don't have any official apostles, but some people have an apostolic gift of going

and just like the early apostles, they would go as missionaries and they were spreading the word and they could start churches like the apostle Paul, kind of a thing. Then you have a fourth view that's mainly the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, and that is apostolic succession. And that's the idea that there's no apostles, but now their successors are bishops. So, bishops, in a sense, carry the same authority.

Oh, interesting. I actually didn't know that. In a sense. That's where even, so for example, when we talk about how sometimes Catholics and Eastern Orthodox would elevate tradition in addition to scripture is because they would say the bishops, who basically are the ones who are creating that tradition, had the same level of authority ongoing. So in the New Testament era, what would be the marks that made someone, oh, those are the marks, that's an apostle. Yes, and I'm going back up. If you go to the closed office one, and again, it's really helpful if you watch this on YouTube, or if you download it later in the guide, there's two qualifications for an apostle, according to those who see this as a closed office.

They were people who were eyewitnesses of the resurrection, and they were commissioned by Christ specifically to be apostles. So those are two big things. They saw Jesus risen from the grave, and they were specifically commissioned by Christ to be an apostle. So even though the apostle Paul did not see him before he ascended to heaven, he does see a vision of the resurrected Lord on the way to Damascus. And there's multiple places, as Paul is writing later and talking later, he says, the Lord Christ appointed me. He appeared, and I saw him, and he appointed me to be an apostle to the Gentile. So those are the two big qualifications. Have you seen Jesus, and have you been specifically commissioned by Jesus? we'll go ahead and cut the chase and tell people now.

That's why if anyone says that they are an apostle of the same way as Peter and Paul, I'd say, no, you are not. So do you know the answer to this question? Like in hyper charismatic circles, when somebody calls himself like, apostle Sarah, you know, or whatever is, do you know, like, are they claiming the same New Testament qualifications? Like, hey, the Lord appeared to me. Some of them would say something like that.

Oh, I had a vision or something like that. Oddly enough, and this is, by the way, for Clared, in case you've not seen other episodes, We are not saying these people are Christians. We have said the opposite of that. This is, frankly, if you read the early history of Joseph Smith and Mormonism, that is their thing. Oh, we had visions. And so in a sense, we're carrying this forward.

We are prophets and apostles in the same kind of way. Again, we do not actually believe that they're Christians for clarity. I will say, because you're saying if somebody is like, basically self-proclaimed the apostle, right? What I've heard, and I'm curious to hear what would you guys think. So Ephesians chapter 4 verse 11, you mentioned that Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors, and teachers. So there's five different, I guess, functions or roles. From what I know, some of these people here in some of those circles would say,

well, we got pastors, Pastor Josh, we have evangelists, people that have a specific, unique function. We have teachers. There's like the gift of teaching. Why not prophets or apostles? And, you know, prophets is a different conversation. I would say, and I think you're on this same path, this is where you differentiate between office and function.

So what I would say is, is the office, is the New Testament office of Apostles still open? No, I do not think it was. I do not think it is. In fact, it is not. And I want you to say declared it. Here in a second, I want you to say definitively why we know that office is closed. But when Ephesians 4 does that, for Bible nerds who are listening, it is shorthand, people say, they'll talk about apest. Apostles, prophets, evangelist, shepherds, teachers.

He translated it pastors. I think that's the NIV or the ESV. Yeah. Apostles, prophets, evangelist, Shepherds, teachers. I would say, yeah, all five of those are, those functions and gift sets are all still in effect. And here's how I'll define apostleship.

And people will do different things here. What I would say, here's the best way to say it. I think pastors, shepherd churches, apostles, shepherd pastors. So you will, you'll see it. Like in every generation, like you'll see guys who it's like, they're a pastor, but then there's these voices that God anoints, where it's like, I call it

convening power I've heard it called, where there's like a pastor that God raises up in his generation. And honestly, there's usually a grace and anointing on his life. And it's like for some reason, he's like a pastor whisper and all the other pastors, they start watching that dude. And they're like, man, I'm following that guy. And there's something on that guy. Usually it's a very bold, courageous voice. Usually there's a lot of anointing. And here's, in my opinion, and here's how you know that guy's got a grace or a gift of Apostleship, Little A Apostle. I call it convening power. Pastors are hard to gather because they're busy and they're usually opinionated.

So it's hard to gather pastors. They kind of like to do their own thing a lot. Whenever there's a guy who is like, when he calls a whole bunch of pastors, like, well, yep, I'm going to come do whatever that guy's doing. That's usually the sign of an apostle. the reason I little a gift of apostles shit up. The reason I say that is, honestly, it reflects the New Testament.

You get the Jerusalem Council, Acts 15. Yeah, Acts 15 Jerusalem Council. One of the things you'll see in the apostles is bro, when those apostles summon people, they coming. Exactly. And so it's like pastors tend to look, Christians tend to look to pastors, pastors tend to look towards people with a gift of apostles. And then as Paul is taking that letter to the other places,

he gives and basically says he basically is taking this letter from the apostles and the elders in Jerusalem. So it's like, hey, this is bearing their authority. To your thing, and then I'll be ready, kind of give you like the two verses or two main points that say why we know this office is closed. One I would tell people if they said, oh, but like we see this is an ongoing function. Ephesians 4 is so clear. I'd say a couple things there. Number one, nowhere else in the New Testament do you see any instructions given for making success or apostles. What you do see is we're going to be going through 2 Timothy, first 2nd Timothy, and 1st, 2nd Timothy, and Titus, you get instructions for raising up deacons and elders and pastors. You get none for raising

up other apostles. Which the apostle Paul is about to die. That's a good observation. Yeah, and the Apostle Paul is about to die. You think if he thinks that there should be his successor, you think that he would say that. And with the qualifications of an Apostle- Catholic. Yeah. So to what John said, I think some of the people that I know that are in some of these circles would say, we agree with that. That's why we call ourselves apostles. So not so much that they're on part with like the Apostle Paul. And so you said that that's not what Paul said, but then they would point out to Ephesians chapter 4.

So this is the other thing I would go. Well, a couple of things that say throughout church history, why did no one use that term until the last hundred years? Oh, is that true? Yeah, no. Think about the early church. Again, they would say, hey, we have bishops. They are their successors.

But they never called anybody. Even think the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, John Calvin, none of them used that. Not until recently, has anyone thought that we should use that term? So I always go back to this is a good reason, Mike. One reason we need to know history is I tell people to be a good theologian or a good Bible scholar, you need to do theology historically. And if all of a sudden you're doing something that no one has ever done before, and if you're seeing something no one has ever seen before, it's probably because it's not there. And then with that, it's go back to Ephesians 2.20.

It talks about how the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And Ephesians 3, it also talks about how this mystery has been revealed to the apostles and the prophets. it's there, I would agree with you, it's talking about a designated group that is, you don't get the others. Exactly, the office. So there, you don't get the rest of those offices. And Ephesians 4, you do. So I would say that, and it also talks about, the thing about it, Ephesians 220, it talks about how they are, is built on the found, they have laid the foundation. You don't lay a foundation multiple times. You lay it once. That's a good point in Ephesians 220. So for the people, which by the way, all the New Testament scriptures now, you get into Hebrews and some of these, but all the New Testament scriptures,

one of the marks of anything that could be included in the canon was came from or through an apostle or an amanuensis. Exactly, exactly. So this is why, to your point, hey, you lay a foundation once, this is why the New Testament refers to the New Testament revelation as, quote, once and for all delivered to the saints. By who? The apostles. The apostles.

Exactly. the apostles. So I'm just noting what we're driving at for Bible nerd listeners is the closing of the office once and for all. The other verse I was going to give, and to me this is just so clear that people forget. In 1 Corinthians 15, it talks about the resurrection of Christ, and it says he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, last of all as to one untimely born. He also appeared to me. Last of all. Oh, he also adhered to me.

That's a good catch. Yeah. And so I would just tell people, like, to your point, like, even if someone said, well, we don't think of them this way, then I'd say, hey, that's great, but it's probably not wise to then call them an apostle. Because that's just going to lead to a lot of confusion. You may say they have an apostolic gift, but they are not an apostle. Those are two very different things. What would you say to Carlos's objection? The, hey, man, if you go to Ephesians 4, you have apostles, prophets, evangelist, shepherds, and teachers, why?

why is it okay for people to call themselves teachers, evangelists, shepherds, and pastors, but not apostles? I would have a little bit more of a different nuance view of yours, and specifically around Ephesians 4. To me, that's where if I go through all the book of Ephesians, in Ephesians 2, it says apostles and prophets only, once for all. Ephesians 3, mystery of salvation is given to apostles and prophets. When you get to Ephesians 4, if you've read those two and you already know who he's talking about, that's a once-for-all office, when he says that it talks about when Christ ascended into heaven, he gave gifts to his church. it says apostles and prophets. If I've already read twice that those were just two groups and I know who they are,

when I read that, I'm not going to think, oh, there's new people as well. I'm going to think these are the people he's already referred to. And these other three offices, think about it, evangelists, pastors, teachers, those are offices that we do get further information about in the rest of the New Testament. Interesting. Yeah. Can I push back? Push back.

I mean, I'm just reading the verse here. So again, I'm just going to read it again, verse 11. And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelist, the shepherds, and teachers. So here's why we receive those to equip the saints for the work of ministry for building up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. I see your point. But then the question would be it doesn't seem like that.

It seems like it's an ongoing process that we are not there yet. Therefore, we have all these different roles. Yeah. So a few things there. What about that, Paul? I'm basically going to restate a lot of what I've already said, which is, again, if I'm reading Ephesians, and it talks about how the apostles and how the prophets have laid down the foundation of the church, I don't relay it twice. And guess what I have of theirs that I get to keep in order to keep that foundation solid? The scriptures.

So you would say, Paul, you wouldn't agree with anybody calling themselves a prophet or apostle. You're only okay with the evangelist, the shepherd, and the teacher. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Because as far as what they call themselves? And this is, yeah, I would.

So you think the giftings exist. Yeah. But hey, man, let's just not call ourselves that. If you told me, Paul, I had the gifts of prophecy. Man, that's amazing that God gave you that gift. Hey, Paul, I'm a prophet. Mm. Because the second you call yourself a prophet, in the Old Testament, people were prophets

and true legitimate prophets only spoke the oracles of God and words from God. And that's all they spoke. So you're telling me that everything you're going to tell me is 100% true all the time. Yeah, and they wouldn't see that. Yeah. But that's my point. The second you say that, it introduces confusion because if I'm in your church and you call yourself an apostle, like to disobey the apostles in the New Testament is to disobey the Lord. And so with that, I'd say, like, my thing is, again, I'd say, hey, why did the early church have the same book of Ephesians, but none of them came to the same conclusion?

That's the other thing I'd ask. That's a good point. Yeah. Well, let me do one last one. Hey, Paul. Oh, this is the stunt Paul moment? No, I'm going to give you one. Hey, Paul, what about Junia? Oh, are you going to Junior?

Paul, what about Junior? Now, we can't let ourselves devolve into an entire women in ministry. We need to give a whole podcast. That's bold. That's bold for you to bring up Junior out right now. We need to have a whole podcast on that at some point. But Paul, this I'm putting on my stump chat sheet, Paul T, but Paul, the verse says, what's the specific verse? Can you look it up real quick? 16, I believe, verse 7. Yeah, greet Andronicus.

Yeah, yeah, but what book and chapter? Sorry, yeah, Romans chapter 16. Yeah, Roman 16. Versus seven. But Paul, it says greet Andronicus and Junia. My fellow Jews who have been in prison with me, they are outstanding among the apostles. So Paul, obviously you have two more apostles and one of them's a woman. Yes.

Okay, so a few things here. One solution that some people give that I don't really think is that great. So how does people stop using this is they say, well, hey, Junia actually could be a masculine name. could be a dude. Junius. Junius. Most scholars, including conservative scholars, no longer hold that. So I'd say to me there's two very, very plausible.

Why were you laughing at me? No, it was just interesting. Yeah. That's the thing that I've heard thrown around before, but honestly, most scholars don't hold that. So two very plausible explanations here. One is, as I've said, an apostle is not always only used. Yes, this is the important part.

of people who were like the capital A apostles. I just earlier gave those references to people who talked about they were messengers. Also, past, and we didn't go through the rest of the table and we don't need to. It's short on time, I think. But after the time of the New Testament, the word apostle was sometimes used of missionaries. And so it could be that this, I think of this as maybe potentially a married couple who kind of like Priscilla and Aquila. They may have been more of a broadly based used word of apostles, sent ones. Mescentuance or missionaries.

Missionaries. There's another potential explanation, but I want you to chime in. What? I was just trying, I'm lock and loaded to, you know, sure, but that's right. He's going to poke holes. Wait, no, because, yeah, because, okay, so, Paul, you just told me that you're against people using, and by the way, I'm not defending. This is not me, like, advocating for people to call themselves apostles at all.

By the way, just to clarify. But I'm curious, because you mentioned it. You said, wait, so you shouldn't call yourself apostles because in the Bible, an apostle, somebody that's like the apostle Paul. You just said that the Bible uses the same word to mean different things. What about that, Paul? What about that, Paul? He's helping at the bit over there.

He's helping me. He's helping at the bit over there. Yeah, a couple things. So you're okay with the Bible using the word to mean different things, but you're not okay for today. If we want to refer it for the function, not the office. I'm becoming a broken record on this, but again, I go back to, hey, if or two. He's like, let me just, once again, explain it to you like, I just warn you, I'm going to

be with Paul on this one. I just go back to this is that yeah, they had that and they had this different sense for it. But number one, we are not speaking ancient Greek and we are only speaking in English and so we should be careful with the words of views. And number two years I say it's like if for two, almost 19 or 2,000 years, people did not use that title to breed confusion. Why should we? I'll put it this way. It's not on me to give you reasons why we shouldn't. It's on you to give me reasons why I should. Ooh, what about that, Carlos? It's a Bible word. It's a Bible word. Well, but again, why did everybody have the History is not my highest authority of Bible is.

Here's a good question people to ask sometimes. If everyone has had the same Bible for 2,000 years but came to a different conclusion for 2,000 years, it's on you to make an overwhelming case of why we should change and not me. Well, it's not everybody because clearly you gave different views. So some people disagree with you. All right. Okay. Final comments.

Final comments. And then we're going to talk about this thing. You know, final comments for sure, yes. On the junior thing? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And then I want to talk about this thing that went stupid viral.

that's actually the opposite of healthy fatherhood. This is fun, by the way. You said you were going to try to stumb me, and I've prepped for the wrong test. I thought you were coming for different stuff, and so this is fun. Although I did think you're going to go to Junia. So one is potentially they could be, these are people that are known as people who are sent, potentially missionaries. A second one, and this is way more grammatical, and I would tell people, there's a good article written by a couple of guys, a couple of guys, a couple of guys, men's being called in a show guide, where they go. into it. So there's different what's called casings or declensions in ancient Greek. You have

genitive, you have date of accusative and nominative. I'm not going to go into all the things. We'll wrap it up. What they have shown is that sometimes this word famous or known by, it can mean that they are among that group or it can be known that they are famous because that group knows them. And what they've shown, for example, there's a place where it talks about how Aphrodite is famous among mortals. It doesn't mean that she is a mortal. It means that the mortals know her. and the specific use right here, the specific Greek that is used here, is more in the case where it is that they are known by them,

not that they are known among them. Does that make sense? It is. It's important. First of all, let me just say for listeners on what I'm about to say, I'm like 99.99% of sure all three of the guys at the table are on the same page. So let me just put a ball on this thing.

The reason I bring up that passage, and someday, honestly, we will do a quick women in ministry pod, because that's a question people have. Yeah, comment below if you want it, and if that's helpful for people. Yeah, honestly, If you don't, then we won't.

But if you're like, yeah, do that episode, then we will do it. But the reason what we're talking about right now, and then we're going to talk about this thing that went viral from the New York Times thing, the reason this important is people use that verse on Andronicus and Junia to essentially jump to the conclusion that the New Testament is invalidating the concept of any gender distinctions in the concept of any gender distinctions in the concept of any gender distinctions in the concept of the leadership in the church out of the Bible. 100%. It's going to take a pair of scissors. So we, I think all three of us, have a very firm conviction around what's known as complementarian views of church leadership, that God has placed the primary burden of responsibility for the leadership of the, for the primary leadership of local church on biblically qualified men, especially in the role of at least, like of senior pastor and elders, at least. So, but the reason I point out that verse is people use, the unclear, ambiguous verse about Junia, quote, being famous among the apostles to jump to the

conclusion that there you go. That invalidates all gender distinctions and the obvious response to that, which if we do a Bible nerd women and ministry podcast, we'll talk about this. The obvious response to that is, hey man, we don't take one unclear verse and use it to uninterpret like a hundred clear ones. We don't do that. Exactly. Exactly. Any final comments there? Are you finished being a heretic and skeptic? I love it.

Man, it's my job to ask questions. All right. Let's finish with this. Because when I was studying for this, talking about spiritual fatherhood, this video went like stupid, insane viral. And the reason I want to respond to this is it is emblematic of thinking that is far more prevalent and far more influential in our culture than that. people realize it is.

So let me set this up real quick. What you're about to see is honestly, it's becoming one of my favorite podcasts now. I think he's moving over to 60 minutes, but Ross Douthit, who's been at the New York Times for, he's like the only conservative at the New York Times. It's like people call him Lonely Ross over there.

He had, he has a podcast called, Back I can't remember what it's called, actually. I've watched it quite a few times. He had a guy that's a Yale. So here's here you're about to see. This guy's a Yale law professional. professor. So this, and he was at Harvard and Columbia University before this guy's name is Samuel Moyne. So just before we see this, what you're about to see, this is not like fringe thinking,

like, oh, this is some way out there, lunacy. This is like the person that's training the most prominent legal minds in our nation. So what you're about to see is they're having a conversation about voter representation in the American system. And the, the question, the question, comes up, well, what about aren't children in America, isn't that, they need to be represented in the voting system somehow, okay? Now, I'm just going to, I'm just going to point this out real quick. What you're going to notice is a theme that is very, very prevalent. And the theme is this, is that primarily progressivism, but not only progressivism, it is the demonic reverse image of Malachi 4.6. So Malachi 46 says that what the Spirit of God does, the Holy Spirit, is he turns the hearts

of the children to the fathers and the fathers to the children. What unholy spirits do is they turn the hearts of the fathers against the children and the hearts of the children against the fathers. Okay. Now, I will just, this is a whole different podcast. I just point this out, if you watch like three of the mainstreams of progressivism, you will see this. Progressivism has three things in it that specifically disciple children to do the demonic reverse image of Malachi 4-6. And I'll just do this real quick. You got critical theory that trains kids to see their parents as racist oppressors that they have to oppose in order to stand on the side of justice. You got queer theory that disciples kids to see their parents' views on gender, marriage, and sexuality as bigoted and repressive.

so they have to rebel against their parents to quote be themselves. And then you have like hyper therapy culture that disciples children to see their family of origin, aka their parents, as the source of every problem that they ever have. So they have to go no contact or separate from their parents to be happy. So I'm just going to point this out. Progressivism, if you just watch,

it is uniquely designed. Honestly, man, in some ways I do think they're a demonic element to this at least at the ideological level. It is designed to reverse disciple children to turn the hearts of the children against the fathers in those three ways. Now, there's a fourth way, and you're about to see it right here. Okay. So all that setup said, this is Ross Douthit with Yale University law professor Samuel Moyne. Here we go. I've gotten in some hot water for proposing we consider overweighting the votes of younger people or assigning the youngest eligible voters proxy votes for the unrepresented children of our country.

So those are edgy. Why not assign them to those children's parents? Pause. Okay. So dude, Sninking Ross, bomb! Boom!

Good question. So he insightfully notices what this guy's doing. He's saying, you know what we ought to do is we ought to use the government to redistribute the authority of the children away from the leadership of the parents. and distribute it broadly to the collective of the voting populace. Now, again, so here's the idea. The reason I point this out, and some people sometimes they think I just choose clips to rage bait people,

that's not what I'm doing. I'm trying to show you ideas have consequences. If you say A, you must eventually say B. And what I want you to start to see, you're going to start to see this as we keep talking about this. What you're going to start to see is that thought is far more prevalent. in our society, then you have any idea. Okay. So again, let me restate it.

He's proposing, let's redistribute the voting authority of children away from the family unit and distributed among the voting populace. That's so communists call that statism. That's actually a communist idea is called statism. By the way, let me connect some dots for you. When somebody like Mom Donnie over in New York City says, hey, we need to get rid of the, quote, the frigidity of individualism and replace. it with quote the warmth of collectivism that's what he's talking about he's saying hey man let's

get away from viewing people as individuals or as family units and instead we just need to view everybody as part of this the collective state okay i'll give you one more so i don't know if you can pull up that uh the old BLM vision statement so again there's these little tentacles you know ideas have consequences if you say a you must eventually say B so when BLM was a thing, like before everybody figured out, it was more like a lesbian Ponzi scheme. So when BLM was the thing, people did notice this.

BLM, like, actually in their vision statement, while everybody in America was, like, marching for it, this is from their website. This is what they stated. I went through this in a sermon one time. We got absolutely crushed for it one time.

For reading? I went through the BLM vision statement in 2021. It was early on. I'm just joking. I'm like, you just, just read it. Yeah, honestly, yeah. I just, I read it and I read it and then I went, here's what it says, and here's what the Bible says. They took it down after. Yeah, so as I'm going to say is once people

figured out what they were saying, they scrubbed it from the website and I've been told they like deep dive scrubbed it from Google so you can't find it anymore. So this is like, we had to dig this up. So one of the things they said, let me read this to you. Now again, I'm trying to connect dots. This is what's being taught in Yale University law schools and a guy who came from heart. Harvard and Columbia, okay? Now I'm going to bring this all to a, I'm going to bring some points together. But again, these are like communist socialist ideas. We need to replace the individual and the family unit with, quote, the warmth of collectivism

and everything gets loaded up into the state. This is the BLM vision statement that everyone was like marching for, like even Christians were marching for this. We disrupt the Western prescribed nuclear family structure requirement. So in other words, heterosexual. moms and dads raising their own kids. We'd like to disrupt that by supporting each other as extended families and villages that you're going to hear a word that may sound familiar.

Collectively, what they're saying is the same thing. Mom Donnie is saying now, who got it from his dad, who, if I understand correctly, was an actually open stated communist. We need to replace the individual and the family unit with the collective of the state, that collectively care for one another, watch especially our children. In other words, let's take away the authority of the parents

and replace it with the authority of the state. So you got all this. So that's it. Okay, now, I will just gently point this out. Like, dude, it's got a bit of an edge to it. It's just a fact. Every study that you will find ever right now is progressives don't have kids.

They don't have kids. So you got this guy, progressive guy, from Yale University, Columbia, Harvard, teaching the next generation of jurisprudence in our nation. And I was just going to say this, dude. A lot of times it feels like progressives are people who avoid kids and abort kids, telling people who have kids what's best for their kids. So that's what you got. Okay, now I love, so Douthit, let's go back to this,

Dauphi goes, why not their parents with a smirk on his face, which was kind of awesome. All right, now watch what happens here. Why not assign them to those children's parents? Well, because there's a divergence of interest between parents and children. And I think it's likelier that young people, not people who are raising families, will have the best insight into the interests of children. Whereas if you were awarded five proxy votes.

I think that's dast. I think it's absurd to imagine that a 24-year-old. recent college graduate has a better assessment of the interests of my own children than I do. Pause. Okay. Let me just point this out. He just said something he doesn't even realize is like actually theological incisive. So can I just point this out? In every generation, what you're going to see is Romans chapter one. It doesn't tell you what happened. It tells you what always happens. One of the things Romans chapter one says happens to a nation that is under the judgment of God and under the passive wrath of God is what, watch this. This is really, really interesting. If you're watching that Yale University Law Professor

and you are thinking what Ross Dalthett is thinking and you're thinking that's daft or you're thinking other four-letter words. Okay, let me just say, what you are doing is you are correctly applying Romans 1. This says what happens to nations under the passive wrath of God, it says, quote, claiming to be wise they became fools.

In other words, in a nation that's under the wrath of God and walking away from him, it says that when they replace the truth of God for lies, that's what happens in a secular society. It says, what you're going to get is people who think they're really wise that are actually doing foolishness. You got a bunch of people that are educated beyond their level of intelligence. They got more degrees than Fahrenheit.

They got tons of wisdom. They have tons of knowledge. They have absolutely no wisdom. When he says that's daft, he's essentially doing Romans one. Okay, now watch what he says here. This is great. And I say this with all due respect to 24-year-old recent. and college graduates, of whom I hope to be the parent of in nine years or so.

I think parents generally confuse the interests of their family with the interests of their children. And part of our goal, I think, is parents, but also as a society, is trying to make sure that children aren't the hostages of their parents. Done. Pause. Bro. Now, again, this is not just like, let's just find a friend.

radical voice and nut pick up. This is the guy that is one of the most prominent law professors at Yale that's training future Supreme Court justices that was at Harvard and Columbia University that's shaping the jurisprudence angle of our future nation. Can I read you something? So Carl Marx, whom we teach in our universities, he wrote this book called The Communist Manifesto. chapter two this is literally what he calls for quote the abolition of the family and this is a quote from his book quote do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents to this crime we plead guilty that's that's that's marxism in our one oh one oh one that's right bro there's a quote i'm trying to find right now well while you're doing that i just laughed because when i heard that they have their interests of their family before they're interested their children who are their family yeah I don't even know that this makes logical sense in my head. You need another minute or did you get it? No, I can't find it.

Yeah. So again. Marxism. Now, so here's what I'm driving at is, dude, Christians are not awesome at having an awareness of the ideological trends that are shaping the culture around them. And our job, according to the scriptures, is to quote, we destroy arguments. Yes. And every lofty opinion that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. The knowledge of God is heterosexual mom and heterosexual dad married in a covenant,

raising their children, and they are the authority over their children, not the state. Okay? So now here's, I just want to point one last thing out that there's just like when you watch stuff and you use the Bible, not just as something you look into, but something as a lens that you look through and interpret the world. Yeah, I just want to point this out. So in, this is not always true. This is generally stereotyping, but sometimes that's something.

actually kind of helpful. It's just pattern recognition. In general, a lot of times, what you get is progressivism is a lot of like highly educated elites that sort of do the thing. And then in general, not always. You get conservative. It's like a bunch of blue collar dudes and, you know, kind of swing hammers and work with their hands. There's a lot, a lot of that kind of stuff. Like lower, sometimes it can feel like a little bit of class warfare. Not always. We're generalizing, that kind of thing. What I would like to point out to you that's really interesting and you see it come to a head in a clip like that. This is interesting.

Have you ever noticed that virtually every ideological fad that runs its way throughout culture, like a little virus and then burns out, that people eventually realize, well, that was insane. Almost all of them are things that like blue-collar people, let quote-unquote, less-educated people, are usually, they never bought into.

They saw it immediate and were like, well, that's real dumb. So just think about this, like in our lifetimes. You got the woke critical theory thing. You got the trans ideology. You got the hard queer theory thing. And now you got like the Islama socialism thing that's going on. All of those things, your normal, uneducated blue-collar dude looks at it and he goes, nah, that's real stupid.

And he never bought into it. Now, have you ever thought about this? why is it that the quote unquote less educated people are the ones who don't get hooked by like the sort of ideological lies of the day? So I would just like to finish with this. It's really interesting. C.S. Lewis, a lowercase P. Prophet, Paul. A lower case P. profit of his day. That's great. He actually wrote about this in, I reread that hideous strength a few years ago. So dude, here's C.E. C.S. Lewis's quote on why, quote, dumb blue-collar people almost never fall for the same terrible ideas that the quote, educated elite class often does. C.S. Lewis in the 1930s predicting

exactly what is happening in our generation because he was a man with a Bible in his hands. It's a character in that hideous strength that says this. Why, you fool. It's the educated readers who can be gold, all our difficulty comes with the others. When did you meet a workman? That's like an old school English word for blue collar guy that swings a hammer. When did you meet a workman that believes the papers? He takes it for granted that they're all propaganda and he skips the leading articles. He buys his paper for the football results and the little paragraphs about girls falling out of windows and corpses found in Mayfair flats. That guy is our problem. It's a guy that's trying to deceive the populace. He says, that guy, the workman,

the little blue collar dude, that guy's our problem. We have to find a way to recondition him. But the educated public, the people who read the highbrow weeklies, don't need reconditioning. They're all right already. They'll believe anything. Or in the words of Romans 1, claiming to become wise, they will become fools. There you go. That's good, man. Pastor Josh, would you pray for us? Yeah, we'd love to, man. Father, thank you.

Thank you for the blessing of being able to open your word and not just look into it, but look through it. Father, more than anything else, I pray for the men and women who are listening to this podcast that come from broken families and that didn't have dads that were around to point them to Jesus. Father, I thank you for the men and women who step forward and stand in gaps

and become spiritual moms and spiritual dads to people who need them. Father, I pray that even while I'm praying, that there would be men and women with open Bibles and hearts full of the spirit and people in their lives, that right now you'd be speaking to them and they'd be going, hear them, I send me, and that they would step forward and become a generation of spiritual moms and spiritual dads for people who didn't have them. I pray for people who need them, that they would find their way to a local church and sit in a pew or a seat and they watch and that you would bring them those people and that they would have the wisdom and initiative to chase them and that they would be blessed in the doing. Father, we love you. We pray for an entire generation of Timothy's to be raised up in the name of Jesus and for his glory. Amen. Amen.

They're free, brother. Ray.