Live Free with Josh Howerton - Rediscovering Your First Love For God | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

What happens when a church starts strong but loses sight of what truly matters? The early church in Ephesus had an incredible legacy—planted by the Apostle Paul, led by Timothy, and even home to the Apostle John and Mary. But despite their theological strength, Jesus had a serious warning for them: they had lost their first love.    In this conversation, Pastor Josh and Jana Howerton, along with Pastor Carlos Erazo, dive into the powerful message behind the letter to the Ephesians in Revelation 2. They explore how distraction, culture, and even good theology can become barriers to genuine love for Christ. Plus, hear about Pastor Josh’s eye-opening journey through the ancient ruins of Ephesus, the surprising history behind the Jesus fish symbol, and what it all means for believers today. If you’ve ever felt like your faith has lost its fire, this conversation is for you!   👍 Like, Comment, & Subscribe for more life-changing podcasts! 🔔 Turn on notifications so you never miss an update!   👇 DON’T MISS OUT! Whatever your gifts are, we want to help you find YOUR Serve Team! Once a month, you’ll have the opportunity to see Serve Teams in action, ask questions and get hands-on experience to find where you can make a difference -- https://lakepointe.church/serve/   ⛪ ABOUT LAKEPOINTE CHURCH: We believe that Lakepointe is a movement for all people to Know God, Find Freedom, Discover their Calling, and Make a Difference. With 6 DFW locations and programs for all ages, there's something for everyone. 🤝 Support this ministry and help us reach more people with the Gospel: https://pushpay.com/g/lakepointe/    STAY CONNECTED: 🌐 Website: https://lakepointe.church/ 👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lpconnect/ 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lpconnect  🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lakepointechurch      🎧 LISTEN ON THE GO! ▶️ Live Free on Spotify / https://open.spotify.com/show/353ryGdZNlebaiqkCcy3Yc  ▶️ Live Free on Apple Podcasts / https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/live-free-with-josh-howerton/id1669321198 

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howardton. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And our prayer is these deep dive conversations about the Word of God equip you to live free in Christ. This is a test drive, and we'll decide whether or not to do more seasons based on engagement. So if this is helpful to you, if you could rate, review, or share, that will help us to know what's helpful. For more digital content, visit lakepoint.church slash livefeworth. free. And now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of Delivery. Keep going. My name is Carlos Arasman. I'm here with Pastor Josh and Janet Howard,

and how are you guys doing? Hey, we're going on a date right after this podcast. That's great, man. Man, it was going so well, and then you looked at me like, this is kind of funny. Is that my face funny to you? Not really, but we did a face, so I don't know. Well, it's like, because we're all sitting here talking. You guys spent like 30 minutes to talk about keto just now. And I know. I Barnaboard dieting. Oh, man. So then, you know, we're all sitting here talking, and then we have to pretend we just started, hey, welcome with the podcast. That's right.

We're working on it. Jenna, it's good to have you here. It's great to be here. I'm excited. Hey, did, uh, my favorite co-host? Did Josh show you the TikTok that I shared with him this week about skinny jeans? No. Did you not see it?

Wait, can we show it? Yeah, I did. Like somebody pulled it up. I did. I think I saw it on here. This feels like a Joe Rogan episode. Jamie. Jamie.

Mr. President, this next executive order will criminalize skinny jeans for all youth pastors everywhere in the universe. It says, quote, skinny jeans are not hip or fire or even rad, and they just simply look dumb. That's great. I have a little vouch for you. You don't own a pair. That's right. You've never had a pair. Ever.

This is publicly stated. I don't own it. I want to get that out there. I don't own a single pair. No skinny jeans? None. I don't own any. Have you ever?

I own one pair of Howerton legs. that turn all jeans into skinny jeans. He has never had a pair ever. Wait. No? No. You've been accused before, not accused, but you know, people have said things about. I've made the joke.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't know any. I never have. Okay. No. But I do have, yeah, slim cut. I've got a couple slim cut.

But like I said, like the Howerton genetics, they turn all genes into skinny jeans. That's right. Lots of leg days. So do you think we should not have, skinny jeans obviously are not kind of in anymore, but it seems like generally speaking, well, I've been saying, like, you know, obviously. Generally speaking, you know, millennials, you know, they still use it. Yeah.

And so do you guys think we should bring back? Janice transitioned. She's on to wider leg jeans now. Yeah. Yeah. Slowly. Okay. I don't know.

I still like skinny jeans. Yeah, that's fine. I don't know. That's because we're millennials. I know. Hey, we're all millennials. You know, this is the same space for us to shade? Nah, dude.

I'm a young millennial. And then you guys are not so young millennial. We're called geriatric millennials. We should talk about emphasis. We should. We should. That's great, man. Let's go.

Good transition. That's right. And also before we jump in, thanks for listening, watching, subscribing, notification bells, sharing all the things. And so, yeah, man. Talk about new sermon series, letters to the American church. Dude, I'm really excited about this one. So we're going to show a second video here in just a second.

So beginning of the year, Jan and I led a trip. We're supposed to take a big group. We're supposed to take 200 people from Lake Point to Israel. Yeah. And then conflict happened over there. We shifted the trip to a journey of Paul trip. And then I flew over early. And we hit, so what letters of the American church, the series we just started, is the seven

letters that Jesus tells John to deliver to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3. So, you know, the concept here is those letters were written to those churches. but they were written down for us. So our job is to go, what applies to me? What applies to us? What's Jesus think of our church? So really cool things. We're like, man, if I just got out there a couple days early

and we just did a blitz tour in southern Turkey and northern Greece, I think. All seven of the archaeological sites of those seven churches that Jesus addresses, they're still there. So we shot video at each of them. Each week of the series opens with an on-site, me kind of showing people around the city. It's pretty cool, man. That's awesome. Pretty cool.

Yeah, yeah. How many days were you guys there? We did all seven locations and shot all seven videos in like a day and a half. Oh, wow. They did it so fast. Did you drive from like one city to the other? Yeah, we had a drive. So like, I mean, it was like, you know, it was like, wake up at five.

Get in the van. Drive two hours. And then hop out. And then somebody would distract our tour guide because some of the sites, like you're not really supposed to film. So then like somebody that was with me who shall remain nameless would distract the tour guide. And then we shot all the videos on an iPhone. Yeah. Because the cameras are so good now. They're pretty great. So then like I would shoot the video and then, you know, then tour guy would come back and then be like, get in the van, drive two hours. We did it all in two days.

I don't know you can tell that you shot on an iPhone. It just does. No, it looks really good. It looks pro. I mean, it's HD. Yeah. Man, do you want to watch it? Yeah, let's do it. Let's watch it. and then we'll dive right in. So if you were at the weekend service, this was the little, it's like a two-minute guy that opens. This week we did Letter to the Church of Ephesus, Revelation 2. If you weren't there, this is the video that opened.

So the ancient city of Ephesus, massive and growing city. This city boasted a population of more than 250,000 people, massive for first century of Rome and very sophisticated. I'm standing right in front of the ancient library of Ephesus, the third largest library in the ancient empire boasting more than 200,000 volumes.

Now, this church, more than any of the others in Revelation, had a prolific start and it took off like a rocket ship. This church was planted personally by the Apostle Paul, and most Bible scholars say this was Paul's favorite church. The powerful New Testament preacher, Apollos. He began his preaching ministry here at the church in Ephesus. And then the Apostle John and Jesus mom Mary eventually came and settled here after Jesus asked John to take care of his mom after he died. And both John and Mary died and were buried in and around Ephesus here. But somewhere along the way, even though they had a great start, something happened. Because in Revelation 2 and 3, Jesus says to Ephesus, you have lost your first love.

Something happened. It very well could have been. they just got entertained to death and distracted. There are two massive theaters in the city of Ephesus, and throughout the city, there are just an inundation of points of entertainment. So it's very possible that what happened to this church is Satan just went, man, I don't have to destroy you.

I can just distract you from your priorities in Christ. And Jesus' call to this church is, come back to your first love. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. It's like, it's super cool. That feels like it's written to us. I know, man.

Like it actually happened. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Was that photo of the, when you guys were talking about, John and Mary, was it a, was it the burial? Or what was that photos? So, let me give it a little background here that like didn't make it in.

So first of all, dude, if you ever get a chance to go, you need to do. Like, Ephesus is insane. It was by far the largest and most pristinely preserved site of the seven. like I seriously I was like I can't believe this exists it's that stunning and it's so well preserved like all the roads like everywhere Paul walked you're like yep this is this is all the roads are still there like it looks unbelievable crazy so one it was huge number two is a big port city that's really important that it got extremely wealthy you can see that's why on the video I had largest second largest library in Rome 200,000 volumes I mean it's massive so this this This didn't make it in. So that library didn't exist. It was built like 200 years after the Apostle Paul. What used to be there, if you go back into the book of Acts, it talks about Paul going to the, I think it's called the lecture hall of Tyrannis.

That stood, I think, right there. So it was just, it was always like a very well-educated, very wealthy, like very, very wealthy city. A little interesting side note, because it was a port city, because it was wealthy, a lot of brothels. So here's a little interesting side note. It gives you an insight into what it was like. There's a tunnel underneath that library that was in that video. Oh, yeah. I've heard about this, yeah.

There's a tunnel underneath the library that runs under their ground from the library to the brothel across the street. So a lot of Ephesian men would, quote, go to the library. That's right. So there was just like tons of prostitution throughout the city. Man, that's crazy. So Paul's favorite church is what? what you said as well. I think almost every Bible scholar.

I seriously think almost every Bible scholar would say that probably was Paul's favorite. They say that for two reasons. One, Acts 19, I think, tells us he stayed two years. So the only other place he stayed longer was Corinth and there was a reason for that. So he stayed two years. This wasn't like a pop-in, pop-out. Like he planted it, left Priscilla and Aquila, came back, stayed two years. It was a big deal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing is go read the New Testament epistles. The book of Ephesians, obviously two church, Ephesus, is the only one. There is no rebuke of the church. So obviously you read Galatians and it's like, you guys need to go emasculate yourselves. Like who bewitched you? Literally like first chapter. Yeah.

And by the way, if you're just listening like, that's actually what it says. I didn't make that up. We're going to talk about the language I use in my sermons at the end of this podcast. That's right. That's the Apostle Paul. And you put it very elegantly as well. Yeah, that's right. Or you go read Corinthians, and it's just like 12 chapters of rebuke.

Ephesians is basically just, I love you all so much, you're the best, and this is amazing. Interesting. So yeah, probably his favorite church. And then the Apostle John and Mary. So the other thing is like, you know, to put it in modern day terms, like the Ephesian church, it was essentially like celebrity pastor. after celebrity pastor after celebrity pastor, which by the way is a warning to any church that, hey, you can't draft off

somebody's giftedness. So think about this. So think about this. Paul plants it personally. Then he leaves Priscilla and Aquila. That's kind of a big deal. Like they're a big deal. Then Timothy becomes the permanent pastor

of the Ephesian church. A lot of people don't know that. Everybody's there. Everybody's there. So then when Paul writes, first and second Timothy, he's writing to Timothy while he's at that church in that city where I was just standing. Then church history tells us that after Timothy, the apostle John is an elder at the church. And church history also tells us, and we have reasons to believe this, Jesus obviously on the cross, looks at John, who is his favorite apostle, disciple. and he says

he says to his mom he says woman behold your son and what he's saying to or yeah that's I think that's how he says it and what he's saying to her is hey he's telling John look after my mom when I'm gone so then she so John's

an elder Mary's a church member so okay let's recap Paul Priscilla Aquila Timothy John Mary and then this is for super church nerds Ignatius, Ignatius, one of the earliest famous, that dude was there. So I'm like, it was a big deal, man.

Did you mention Apollos as well? Yeah, I didn't even mention Apollos. Wow, Apollos is a big deal. I'm actually a big fan of Apollos. Apollos, yeah. Potential author of the book of Hebrews. That's right. Which is interesting because we're getting kind of geeky here.

Did you want to say, John? I hadn't heard that. Yeah. So I learned this. So some people think Apollus wrote the book of Hebrews because if you read Hebrews, it reads like a sermon. not so much a letter. And Apollos obviously was a great preacher.

He's an order. And the book of Corinthians, people were saying, oh, I'm an Apollos guy. I love his teaching. It's crazy. No, no, I'm a Paul guy. I'm a Peter guy. And apparently, maybe we have a book of the Bible.

That's right. Ran by Apollos. But potentially, you. From this church. Yes. A couple other fun little nuggets. And then, hey, I'm going to have you all. We're going crazy with you all.

I'm going to have you guys pull up that ictus here in a second. So one, you got the first. So one, you got the great theater of Ephesus. I wish we could have walked around because if you walked like two-tenths of a mile from where. All right, so like, okay, let me try to map it. So where I was standing, libraries there. All right next to the library was the agora. Huge agora.

That's like an open-air marketplace. Marketplace, that's right. Jana, that's like a Roman farmer's market. That's Greek. So my word is grief for market. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So the igora's there.

That's significant because if you go back to Acts 19, Paul starts preaching much people get saved. So many people get saved that it starts messing up the economy of Ephesus. Here's why, man, there's so much here. I'm like trying to do all this. So the whole city was built around the Temple of Artemis. Temple of Artemis was one of the Seven Wonders of the World. It was probably three to four times larger than the Parthenon.

So, like, everybody thinks about the Parthenon. The Temple of Artemis, like, dwarfed it in size. So, like, absolutely massive. There was a meteor that fell in Ephesus, is true. A meteor falls in Ephesus. And then the legend develops, oh, that was Artemis coming down from Mount Olympians. and so they built the temple of Artemis on top of that. So all the economy developed around this massive temple.

So let me go back to the Agora. So many people get saved that all these dudes that are like making and selling these little silver idols to Artemis, they get ticked because they're like, nobody's buying our stuff anymore. So then, all right, so now here's why that is. Like you can still see now. You can see the spots in the agora where the little house churches were meeting right behind the booths in the agora. So now it starts to make sense. Why did it disrupt the economy? Because the house churches were meeting right off the agora.

So then how did Demetrius, the silversmith, no, this was because he was probably one of the, honestly, he was probably one of the booths that was close to the house churches that were meeting. and you can still see those today, by the way. Wow. So then all that happens. Well, then you walk down maybe two-tenths of a mile from the Agora. And it is a, like, just to put this in perspective, that theater of Ephesus seats 25,000 people. So, like, you're talking like, I don't know, that's like the AAC.

Yeah. I mean, it's enormous. Yeah, yeah. So that's where they take Paul. And if you remember, they're like, we're going to kill you. Yeah, well, let's kill Paul. big riot happens. And Paul goes, awesome, a bunch of people gathered. It sounds like an opportunity to preach. Yeah. So that's what I almost kill him. That's Paul's thing.

That's wild. Now, last thing that I'll say, and then I'll shut up here, we can, we can move on. So go ahead and throw up, can you go ahead and throw that up, the little, the, the, the, the, the Echthus thing. Click forward. Like, that's a carousel post on IG. Keep going, until, keep going. Keep going. So first of all, that right there, this is for our YouTube fam, that right there,

yeah, that's great. That right there is, I took a picture of that on my iPhone. That's in Ephesus. It's scribbled right in front of one of the market, the little booths in the Agora. That circular thing.

Right there. Now, in America, now we think of the ictph, is the Jesus fish. Can you explain what that is for people that have no idea? I've never heard of that. Totally. And actually,

this makes more sense of why it was called an ichthus than the Jesus fish does. So what Christians did, and I'll explain this here in a second, Christians in Ephesus were probably the ones that invented that thing, the Icthus. What's an Ixthus? Yeah, so let me do it. Let me do it. Let me go. Okay, so it's all right, so they called it the Ictus.

Here's what's what's really cool. So Icthus is an acronym. It's the Greek letters, Iota, Chi, Theta, and then I think that's a Eupsilon and a sigma. Yeah, yeah, Iota Chi, theta, Eupsilon, sigma. Oh, I see what my Greek one or two. Okay, you're going symbol by symbol. Symbol by symbol. Great.

So what that is, is this an acronym. So it's an acronym for, and I'm going to do the Greek words. E. Asus Christos Thayu Huia soter, which means Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior. So what the Christians started doing is persecution starts rising in Ephesus

specifically around the marketplace. Remember Acts 19, Demetrius Silver Smith. So what the Christians started doing is nobody knew that symbol. So if you were a Christian business owner, they would scribble that symbol in front of their little booth. and it was a symbol to all the other Christians, you're safe with me.

Whoa. And one, they would buy and sell. They would try to give business to other Christians. And then it would like they would have a, it makes you teary eye, didn't it? That's great. That's great. So they do that.

Now let me explain what this, what this is super cool, man. Like this is, this is really cool for a Bible nerd. Go to that next slide. So I said it was an acronym. Yeah, on the, there it is. Oh, wow. So here's what it is.

Look at the top. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, with all the lines, it's the letters. So look on the far left. The Iota is just the straight line. The Kai is the crop, the, you know, the little X symbol there. The theta is the circle with the line through it. The Eupsilon, you can, you see it right there.

It's like, looks like a Y, just a little janky Y. And then the, and then the sigma is, you can see it right there. It's that red part of the circle that says semicircle. What does it mean again? Yesus Christos. Let me make sure. Eesus Christa Thayuayuayas Sotere, Jesus Christ, son of God, Savior. So, dude, it's like you're all over.

And you see those all over Ephesus when you're walking around. And you start thinking like, these Christians took over this city. Wow. And they were just signaling to each other. Like, yeah, man. It's pretty cool. Jenna, you were there as well, right? I was not in Ephesus.

I was in Greece. I was in Greece. So he joined us in Greece. That's great. So, yeah. Wow. Yeah, when I got there, you were at the Parthenon. Yes, yeah.

Yeah, Josh missed out on the Parthenon. Okay. He was reading all of these things. He got to see something much better. Much better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so that's the background. Okay.

So let's go Revelation chapter two, man. First letter in the book of Revelation chapter two to the church in emphasis. Man, what did you find this week? You know, maybe that didn't make it to the sermon that you're like, man, you might have to share this too. well man there was honestly there's a lot there's a there's a lot that didn't make it into the sermon you know a few things one this is written um this is obviously written by the apostle john john is exiled in patmos by this time patmos is about three hours from ephesus we drove past it it's a little island

church history tells us they tried to kill john john is the last surviving apostle when he writes Revelation. So he's watched 11 out of 11 of his buddies, you know, crucified upside down, sawn into all the things. Church history tells us they tried to boil John alive. In oil. In oil. Didn't work. So you can imagine what his skin and appearance looks like. Interesting Revelation 1, John says, he uses language that charismatic love and Baptists don't know what to do with. He just says, I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day. And he has some kind of a vision. and he sees the risen Jesus. And what you get here is Jesus going.

So here's why I think this matters. What we do a lot of times is we evaluate churches. Oh man, I like that guy's preaching. I didn't like the worship today. And it's like, that doesn't matter. The question is, what did Jesus, what does Jesus think of your church? Right. Sometimes I think Jesus is looking down at the worship of a church and going,

Well, I didn't like the worship. Y'all just stood there and stared at it. I didn't get fed today. So, man, there's a lot we could go into. What were you going to say, Jamie? You're going to say something? No. Well, yeah, I agree.

I think sometimes it's like you're just talking about worship, though. Like, it's kind of, you know, there are those songs, and luckily, we don't sing them. But if you listen to the lyrics, it's all about me. me, me, me. And it's, I think whenever that's what you're listening to, it's like, oh, we've got to focus our eyes on who God is and what, who he is, his character. And we're just a much better place, just naturally, naturally when we think about how big God is, what God can do, you know, we're just going to be moved in a, in a better place rather than focusing on ourselves. Yeah, man, I think, well, there's a lot to unpack right now. So I want to make sure we, we start

somewhere. Obviously, the main theme is you have lost your first love. Yes. So let's just go, let's start practical at this point. Man, if somebody obviously listened to the sermon, which is amazing. And they say, I just, I would love to hear more about just practical ways that I could make sure that I'm keeping my first love, that my devotion to Christ's remains on fire. And so what would you, Jenna, what would you say to that person asking, hey, what are some easy, practical ways or just helpful ways that I can keep my love for Christ like it was at the beginning. Can I set it up for you? Go for it.

Yeah, let me set it up for you. You gather a couple thoughts here. So first of all, the big thing that I think for us as disciples to take away is that, like, you know, love is the engine the entire Christian life. It's kind of that thing of like, hey, the lover works harder than the worker. And I use the analogy of like, you know, nobody has to command me to kiss. Janna. Nobody has to command me to go on dates with Janna. Nobody's got to command me to spend time with Janna. It's like, I love Janna, so all that stuff naturally happens. So, you know, when we, if somebody is a person that's like, man, Christianity, it just seems like really hard and complicated.

And I just can't keep track of all the rules. I think what I'd say is, hey, dude, just like, honestly, just like stop thinking about all the rules for a second. If you'll just like fall in love with Jesus again, everything is kind of going to take care of itself. And so, you know, it's the engine. Now, what he says here for us that I think so critical is he says when you lose it, he goes, three-step process. Remember, repent, return. Remember, repent, return.

So let me go back to the original question. What I think every disciple should do, and I'm going to ask you the same thing, I'm going to be the interview for a second, Carlos, we can all talk. I think what every disciple should do is this like go back to the time in your life when your heart burned with a white hot first love passion for the things of God. What were the things that you were doing then? Do that stuff. Definitely.

So I'm actually curious because it is a little different for different people. I would love to hear from you guys. Well, I think, you know, one, it's like, you know, and the thing about the Ephesians, they, you know, they probably were like spending time in the word. They were there. So, but I think that that's still foundational. It doesn't matter if, like, if you are kind of in a place of where, like, you know, just where we find the Ephesians where they are. They've lost their first love. They're probably still seeking him, but they've lost that effect. So, but keep persevering. Like keep, you know, sowing seeds of just faithfulness in that because you are going to reap a harvest, you know, if you don't give up with that. So keep spending time with the Lord.

Keep fueling that relationship. But like I just, you know, whenever my like affections and passion for the Lord are, you know, the greatest, it's like, I just can't wait to share. I just want to talk to people about Jesus. I want to tell people about Jesus. I want to encourage them. I just remember, like, after I was saved, I just, anyone who would listen, I wanted to tell them what God had done in my life and how he saved me. And so I think it's kind of what David says in the song is about, restore me to the joy of my salvation.

Because when your affection is there, it's like you just can't help. But it's your overflow is to tell about the Lord. I'll brag on you. So when we met and started dating, you know, Jana got saved when she, were you, did you get saved the year that you were the president? resident of the sorority or the year before that. Either way. Yeah, like right before I took office. Right around there.

Yeah. And, you know, it's like you guys, you just, you started a Bible study for the sorority girls. Yeah. And it was like everywhere, it's just everywhere. You and Megan, shout out Megan. I love her. Yeah, it's like, you know, everywhere y'all went.

Just like, who can we talk to? Yes. And it was just so exciting to just be able to share our faith. And then I think because when you're in a sorority, then, you know, people like, so I got saved at Campus Crusade for Christ. So they asked me to share my testimony. And I think almost every person in my sorority came and heard that night. So it's just like any chance God gave me to share with somebody, I wanted to take it. That's great.

That's good. I mean, this is what happens naturally. Like you said, when you have something so good, you just have to share it. same way that I shared that TikTok this week with you. It's such a good TikTok. I just have to share it. So I'm curious, Carlos, when you look back at like, you know, hopefully all of us were more mature disciples today than we were when we first got saved.

At the same time, there is like a, there is a first love thing that naturally happens in a new believer. When you look back at like, you know, whatever are the most passionate times of consecration, is there stuff that you look back and you're like, that's, I was. doing that. Yeah, man, I think for me, so a couple months ago, Brooke and I and Elias, we went to El Salvador, and I had the opportunity of meeting with some of my old, you know, high school friends from church. And it's interesting because we were there and, you know, now we, last time we saw each other

was like five years ago and we're there chatting. And I was like, hey, what about that one friend that, you know, used to come to church? And where is he? And he's like, oh, he's not a Christian anymore. He, you know, he's not a believer anymore. Okay. And what about, you know, what happened to that other girl or the other guy? oh, they're not believers anymore.

And, you know, the more we talk, the more we realize, like, I'm with this group of friends, and they're all now married with kids. And we all serve together. So we didn't just attend church. We actually, honestly, as a volunteer growing up in high school, I think I was in church, like, almost every day. It was like youth group this day, this other thing the other day. And I was leading a small group as well.

And we just kind of realized, like, oh, most people that we served with, you know, 20 years later, we're still, by the grace of God, like here following Jesus and serving in church. And, you know, our faith is still, by the grace of God, is still strong. But then the people that were more of just kind of friends, kind of attending casually here and there, they're not believers anymore. And so I think for me, man, just looking back, it's a, it's a, my thing was, man, I need to serve. And again, I was in small group leading a group every Thursday. I would meet in our home with my friends.

prepare, literally I would spend hours preparing like a mini Bible study for my friends. My non-Christian friends would actually say, Carlos, this is like homework. What are you doing? Which is hilarious. And honestly, at the time when I was serving, my faith was being nurtured the most because I'm reading the Bible. And I'm like, okay, I got to tell my friends what this means. And all of my non-Christian friends were joining this group. And when I was reading, I'm like, I don't even know, wait, who wrote the Bible? And I'm asking all these questions. And so I'm researching. This is like pre, this is like 2005, like pre-chat GPT.

So I'm like doing my homework. I'm researching. I need to, I wanted to have a solid faith so that I could share with my friends. And God used that to really deepen my devotion for him. And my friends do. I'm that guy who's like preparing Bible studies on Thursday nights. And so it was awesome. Bro.

Yeah. It's so interesting. Like, because when you talk to different Christians and you ask that question, how similar the things are. So, you know, Janah, you get saved. And it's like, let me start a Bible study. I just want to start a Bible study for the sorority girls. You're doing the same thing with your friends.

I look back and first of all, commonality, like for any listener, commonality is this very word-centered. Like all of us, you're ravenous for the word. I got to get in the word, man. And there's no substitute. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So number one, I think that's an important commonality. I remember, it's one of the, like, the stupidest little memories I have, I think I probably

was actually converted. I was a dimmer switch salvation, not a light switch salvation. I call it a Peter salvation, not a Paul salvation. It's like nobody actually knows when Peter was saved. Like somewhere along the way, we don't know where. But I think I was probably saved, like, early high school. And I just remember, like, get just this ravenous, like, you know, I remember sitting in my garage.

My parents were out of the house. They were doing something. And I was reading Proverbs because I had heard that Billy Graham used to read a proverb every day, 31. You know, proverb per month. And I was reading Proverbs and there's that verse about cry aloud for wisdom.

And I remember like literally standing up in my garage with the garage door open and yelling. I'm like 14. Give me wisdom. And my little, neighbor Joe peaks over the fence. I'm like, oh, bro.

What's going on? Yeah. But I just, that, your raveness for the word. Yes. I remember, like, locking myself in my bedroom, turning out all the lights

and listening to Mercy Me worship albums. And just, like, worshiping my face off with my little metal folding chair in my room. I'm, like, 15. Like, just like you guys. I had a, you know, I had, like, lost friends who were like,

I'm trying to follow you. I remember there was a girl in high school. She was gone on some trip where like some shady stuff, she was like, oh, I know some shady stuff that's going to happen. And I don't want to do it. She's like, can you help me? You know, I was like that guy. And I remember being like, you know what?

Let me write her a devotional. And so I remember writing like she was gone for four days. I was like, I'm going to write four devotional. I didn't have a crush on this girl. I was just like, no, I was just like, no, there's just like, no, Yeah, she was like four, three years older than me. And I was like, I just remember like, but I remember like it did just like you. Yes.

You wanted to reach your friends. You started the Bible. And it's like, I was just like, I want to pour out what's in me. Mm-hmm. And yeah, prayer meetings with friends, all the things. Because when you care about them, you want them to have what you have. And you want them to go from darkness to light. Yeah.

Yeah. I think every once in a while I'll also audit like my own habits. in terms of just like asking what's getting in the way of me growing in my relationship with Christ. And, you know, and when you read the Bible, there's the book of judges. It talks about a group of obviously Israel. When you pay attention to what went wrong in their story, it's not that they stopped worshipping God. It's that they worship God.

And in addition to that, they also started worshiping other idols. Yeah. And so I think sometimes, you know, when we have our rhythms for church, spiritual disciplines, It's not like you stopped doing what you were doing, is that maybe you added something that might be getting in the way of you growing deeper and more intimacy with God. It's the third soil. That's the parable of the soil.

That's the third soil. The pleasure of this world and cares of this life choke out the seed. So that's exactly what you just said. You just get busy. I mean, honestly, even like mundane things, like your phone, you know, Netflix, social media, those things are. are not bad in and of itself necessarily, and you're still attending church,

you're probably still in small group, you're doing all the things, you're seeking God in prayer, you're just doing that in addition to this, and this is getting in the way of your relationship with God. It dulls your affection. Yes. Yeah, it's like putting junk food in a stomach.

Yeah. It's like, Matt, I don't have an appetite for the healthy things because my appetite has already been satiated by this worthless stuff, empty calories. Yeah, so instead of stoking the fire, you're like just pouring water on it. The big idea is for anybody that's listening,

if you're like, man, I want to have a white hot first love. How do I get it? And it really is, according to this passage, it's as simple as, think about what you were doing when you did have that passion for the Lord. Make your list and then go do that stuff. It's just marriage counseling. It's like somebody walks in like, we just don't have that spark. Well, what were you doing when you did?

You know, it's like you went on dates. You liked each other then. Yeah, you like you went on dates. You know, hey man, when you went on a date, you put on a shirt with a button on it. And, you know, I'm a checkboxed today. And you spend time with her. Yeah. Well, it's funny because in that illustration, somebody could say, well, I just don't feel it anymore.

Well, what happens when somebody says, I don't feel it anymore? Then, therefore, I don't do what I used to do anymore. It's actually the reverse. You need to go do what you used to do. And once you do those things, then feelings will follow. Feelings make great servants and terrible masters. That, man, if you, dude, if that's like one of those, this is a whole different podcast, that's like one of the great idols of my generation and down is feelings and emotions and treelting them to the position of master, not servant. So I mean, you don't feel your way into acting, you act your way into feeling.

That is true in every, literally every realm of life. Yes. That's good. In verse, in verse six, actually, it's interesting. there's a moment when Jesus praises the Ephesians for hating the works of the Nicolations, which had obviously false teaching. So, you know, I'm just going to read it, verse 6. It says, yet this you have, this is a good thing.

You hate the works of the Nicolations, which says Jesus, I also hate. Somebody might be listening to that or reading that and say, wait, I thought Christians are supposed to love everybody and love everything and like what's going on in this past? Why is Jesus saying, hey, great job in hating the works of the Nicolations. And then he says, I also hate it. Yeah. Well, and I'll double it down. So this is a very like un-PC passage.

So think about this. This is verse two. So I'll just throw all the gasoline on the fire. Essentially, Jesus goes, here's what I like about you. You don't practice tolerance. And here's another thing I like about you. You do practice hate. Like honestly, like, that's the passage.

That's what he says. Now, obviously, we're going to get to here in a second, like, hey, watch out, because what he also said is what I got against you is you're not loving enough. So watch out. We'll get there. But we should notice that. Like, you know, we talked about this a little bit in the message. But in our culture, we treat tolerance as a virtue.

And the Bible tolerance is a vice. there is tolerance is mentioned very few times in Bible it is only mentioned negatively. In fact, it is only mentioned. Think about how the word is even used today in our culture. Fascinating. Tolerance is only used in the Bible as a negative thing where God is rebuking people for tolerating sexual sin. That is the only way the word is used in Bible. We definitely rebrand it today.

significantly. Yeah, that's right. So I just, that's interesting. Jesus goes, here do what I like about you. You don't practice tolerance. Here's also what I like about you. You do practice hate. Now, let me talk about that for a second.

You guys, I'd love to hear your thoughts here. What our culture has done, especially, y'all, I keep saying, our generation of down, is we've made love and tolerance synonyms. Oh, God's really loving, so he must be really tolerant. in every relationship you've got love and tolerance are antonyms me and jana love eliana so i hate any habit or any person or action i should say that would hurt my daughter it's because i love her

that i have a high hatred it's because i love her that i have no tolerance for things that would destroy her. And if you had tolerance, do you actually love your daughter? Yeah, I mean, if you're just going to sit idly by, oh man, whatever behavior that she does. Yeah. You got to really hate somebody to just let them wander off into destruction. That's right. That's right. Jenna, what do you think about this idea of just, you know, Nicolation's false teaching? They hated them. And Jesus says, me too, well done. Yeah. I say always agree with Jesus. That's good. I'm for it. I'm for it. That's a good. Wait, hold on. Let me just, that's a good lesson. Always agree with Jesus. We'll take it. We'll take it. Yeah. I agree. And I think, I think also you want to watch out for those

subtle things, you know, because like I think sometimes things will creep in and it's not like, there are blatant lies and blatant things that it's just like, no, that's definitely against God's word. But, you know, there are subtle things that'll creep in. Like the, you know, the feelings-based stuff, just like a therapeutic movement within the church. And even like seeing a lot of people, I've even heard of different classes that people have hosted at other places just for like the enneagram and like like where it's just kind of like you're not putting yourself against the gospel it's like well if you become more like your number and your wing then you're going to you know fulfill this fulfillment and you're going to um you're not going to have all like the stress that you

had before that and it's just i think it's just um a way to try to play god ourselves rather than just submitting to him and um realizing the gospel is enough we don't need jesus and and anything else. Yeah, it's just like with the feelings, it's keeping things in their proper place. Like, dude, if you do a personality, that's fine. Do your personality test. Some people would ask, hey, is it wrong?

A God. Yeah, but it's like when you elevate those things to like, now I'm rooting my identity. And that's my North Star in that instead of, no, my identity is rooted in Jesus. And I'm trying to be conformed to the image of Jesus. That's it, man. We gets elevated into an improper place.

Then we got a problem on our hands. It's subtle because some people say, I'm still a Christian, but you're actually functionally placing your identity in something other than Christ. And so that's good. So you go back to this. What's interesting is you asked about this originally. Bible scholars have, like I looked all week for this. Like, give me something on who the Nicolaeotans were.

Nobody's got a dang clue. It's like literally like nobody knows. There was a, I think, Ironaeus in the second century. was the first one to write about him, and he thought that they were some kind of Christian, quote-unquote, cult that was permissive towards sexual immorality and food sacrifice towards idols. That's based on something that happens later in Revelation.

You know why nobody knows today? I don't know. Because they didn't tolerate it. So it disappeared. I like that. I should have got that in the sermon. I'm just saying, like, the church did not tolerate it, so it disappeared.

It just went away. that's amazing. Where were you when I was writing the sermon? I mean, we've talked about this before, just in terms of the power of the church, when the church does not tolerate something that is false teaching, at some point, you know, truth beats lies.

That's right. And so, I mean, I can only imagine here. Bro, that's fantastic. Man, like all these thoughts. Man, I got holy sermon now. Because what you're saying is so important. And I think every Christian has to understand the role of the church in society.

Please go there. Yeah, because of what you just said. Like, okay, so we got our Bible verses for this. New Testament says the church is, quote, a pillar and buttress of the truth. What is saying is a pillar and a buttress is the thing positioned inside a building to keep it standing up.

What is saying is the church is the thing inside of a society that's designed to keep it standing up. So Dr. Tony Evans, what he used to say, this is a great, this old preacher analogy, this fantastic, is he said the church is the immune system of the culture. And this is so good, dude. This is so good. I wish I could think of stuff like this. He said, here's how he does it.

He goes, nobody has ever died of AIDS. AIDS takes out somebody's immune system. And once the immune system is down, a person can die of anything. when the church goes silent in the face of evil ideologies and lies and untruths. Society now has AIDS. The immune system is down. And now society can die of any evil ideology. So to your point, Carlos, that's fantastic.

Why don't we know what this evil ideology of the Nicolaeotans was? Because the church did its job and confronted something that was harmful. And Jesus said, good job. Good job, guys. Good job, guys. So my question then is, 2025, what's the modern equivalent of the Nicolations? What are some of those ideologies today that we would say, that's actually a pretty dangerous false teaching, and the church needs to call it out. Man, the problem is there's too many examples. You know, because you got, so the pattern in church history, the Nicolaeotans were probably

not certainly, but probably some type of cult. The pattern in church history, it always goes the same way. First comes the Christians, and then behind the Christians come the cults. So Christianity sweeps through America, and then only after that, then Mormonism, then Jehovah's Witnesses, then the way, that's a cold out in I think in Indiana, then all these. So first come the Christians, then come the cults. So, I mean, one, you got all those.

the difference between, by the way, the difference between a cult and another religion is a cult is another religion, but it poses as Christianity. So, man, but I mean, you got, I mean, there's so many things. You've got the same type of tolerance towards sexual immorality,

rebranded, you know, as, hey man, we don't, you know, as we pointed out before, we have Pride Month, but not Humility Month. We have Pride Month, but not Repentance Month. I mean, there's, there's, I don't know where to start. Yeah, yeah. What would you, you guys got anything there?

We got some labels. What do you got, Jen? You go ahead. No, well. I mean, you said feelings is, I mean, the religion of feelings. Yeah, some dominant ones. Yeah, you got to, you know, see what's, all this requires, sometimes I don't love the word nuance, but this does. Yeah, it's like, hey, like a therapeutic culture.

where, you know, therapeutic concepts become transcendentalized. And actually, therapeutic categories stand in judgment over biblical categories. That's been a thing. You know, I think that's been a thing. You got the rise of, like, you got the rise of radical, fourth wave feminism. You've got the LGBT thing. You know, what's interesting is in our culture, a lot of it is reverse engineer from destroying the family. So there's just, dude, there's a lot.

There's a lot. There's a lot. Those are the rest of social justice movement, all the things. Those are some pretty good examples. In the last thing on this, before we move on to some other things, the Efficient's church, obviously they're commended for being strong in their doctrine. So man, they had good theology. They did not tolerate false teaching.

But then Jesus said, hey, you lost your first love. Obviously, we are commanded to love God and love our neighbor. Oftentimes when your doctrine is so strong, you can become. self-righteous. And so how do you keep strong doctrine and at the same time have a heart of compassion and heart of love for God, but also for other people? Well, first of all, you know, we got you be collecting some thoughts here while I'm talking here. And then we'll, I think first of all, you've clearly got, hey, knowledge puffs up. Love builds up. When you start reading and learning and your end goal is simply knowledge acquisition, that is always going to end bad for you.

But if the whole purpose of you reading and learning is so that you can pour out, serve, and bless other people, you're probably not going to have that problem. So, you know, we all talked about, hey, it's not a coincidence when we were all running, if we look back at the seasons of our life, we're like, man, running hot for the things of God. All of us are serving in ministry in someone. way. So one, that's like when we say, hey, tech served to 2041, that's not some little commercial. That's a, hey, I honestly, I can't disciple you. You can't become what God wants you to become until you get in a spot where you experience the joy of the outpouring. Yes, that's good.

So, you know, I just think it's very rare. It's very rare for the guy that's walking in every week and disciple in 20 middle school boys. That guy very rarely ends up an arrogant, loveless, cold-hearted. Because they'll beat it out of you. Yeah. No, because when you're studying, I mean, me and Jana, we pray with people in the lobby after every service every week. And, dude, when you're studying the word and you're ministering, every time you study, you're thinking about, oh, this is exactly what Sarah needs.

Oh, I hope I get a blessed Sean with this. Oh, we just prayed for Mark Kiefer. I'm going to shout out. We just prayed for Mark Kiefer. And the Lord said to pray with faith. And we did. And he moved. And, you know, these are like real story, you know.

So it's. It changes it. It changes it. What would you say? Yeah. You got thoughts there? I'm going to say, keep with repentance. You know, it's like when you, like,

I want to have a short list before the Lord. So it's like just having consistent ongoing, like, don't wait until later to confess and repent, but like do it in the moment. But just have that heart that says, search me, oh, Lord, and know my heart and like, and ask him to show you. Because, like, I think with the Ephesians, you know, like, they're doing so many things well. You know, they, in so many ways, they were pretty steadfast. But, like, our iniquities are, like, our secret sins, the sins that sometimes we don't even know. Like, so the Holy Spirit has to move in our heart, move in our life to show us. And so I think it makes me think of Psalm 90, verse 8, where Moses is actually talking about that.

So asking the Lord to show you if there's anything that's hindering you from your relationship with him, from where's the love gone? Like, Father, what is inside of me that I need to ask for forgiveness from receive your grace and, you know, just be able to walk together and, you know, again? So I think that's a big one. Dude, that reminds me that verse. I think I'm pretty sure it's Galatians where Paul says the law, or it's either Galatians or Romans 7.

Paul says the law is good if one uses it lawfully. and this is, dude, this is really important to what Janet just said. This right here, this is why I should have said the first time. This is the difference between some of the studies and gets arrogant and some of this studies and gets humble and loving is what Paul's saying is the whole purpose of studying the scriptures is he says it's like a ruler. The purpose of the ruler is to show you you're too short. And you've fallen short, you need Jesus.

But what some people do is instead of holding the ruler up to the ruler up to themselves and going, whoa, I fall short, I'm too short. They walk around and hold it up to other people and go, I'm taller than you. And if you start studying the word with that mentality, you're going to become very arrogant, cold-hearted very fast. But if every time you go to the word, you do what you just said, search me, O Lord, and know me and show me if there's any hurtful way in me, you know, you're going to stay low and your heart's going to be soft. Yeah. And this is, we don't have to go into this, but this is some of the, some of the limitations of in our in our culture today of like Christian influencers on social media where you know there's a lot of

knowledge that is shared but it kind of falls short when it can stops at just more knowledge more knowledge more knowledge like you said man this is so different uh once you grab that knowledge go find a church join a mission and go serve people and go pastor people and so um it is interesting because also scripture says that the Bible the word of God is a sword if you put a sword in the hands of somebody that has no love it's a dangerous thing and you do see people using the Bible in a way that it's actually hurting people and throwing Bible verses in a way that is unloving with little grace. And so, yeah, I think it changes it once you realize, man,

let me find a place where I can love, use what I have, whatever God has given me and my knowledge and use it to serve other people. And Jen, I agree with you, I think the repenting part. I know there's been seasons in my life where I've learned some things and I'm like, I think I know some things. And then I've used that to feel like I'm better than other people. and I actually had to apologize to some people for that. Me too.

What I said came across in a way that was not right. And honestly, I was feeling better than you in that moment. Would you forgive me? Dude, I had a salt tech last thing on this. So we've said, how do you study the word and not become like the Ephesians where you got a lot of doctrine, a big head, and a cold heart? You know, number one, we said, you know, your attitude towards the word. You know, no, I can't remember what the thing I said first was.

You said serve people. Yeah, serving. Yeah, that's right. That's a, the third thing I would say is, dude, if you're trying to reach lost people, if you got a one more in your life that you're begging God to save, I just don't see that guy get arrogant ever. There's something about, there's something about evangelism and having a relationship. for, you know, trying to reach somebody for Christ. It just, it does something in your soul.

Arrogance in the gospel are oxymorins. At the end of the day, the gospel says, to quote, Dr. Tim Keller, you are more sinful than you can ever imagine. And at the same time, you are more loved than you could ever imagine. If you know that you are more sinful than you could ever imagine, there is no space for arrogance. And yet, there is no space for a low self-esteem because, or like a defeated mentality because you are more loved,

than you could ever imagine. That's right, Carlos. That's fantastic. That's great, man. Hey, we did anything else on Revelation chapter two in the church emphasis? I know there's obviously so much more. There is. There's so much.

You know, you get into the, you know, he commends him for hating the heretics. You get into, you know, recognizing false teaching. And there's so much, dude. How do you recognize false teaching? So I didn't have time to do as much of that as I wanted to in the message. There's a couple. Let me just shoot from the hip on a couple things. And then let's move on.

So after I'm done here, there's two things we're going to hit real quick. We got an enormous number of questions after a last week's pod on different models for leveraging your 9 to 5, like whatever your career is for the kingdom of God. So I'm going to give four quick models for that. And then we're starting to answer some user questions. And one user question was, why do you use words like crap and sexy and requisite? thermal thermometer in your sermons. So I'm going to answer. Great question. I'm going to, there's a strategy to that. So I'm going to answer that. But so a couple things I'd say on false teachers. Number one, obviously, the great thing,

the thing that Jesus commenced about the Bereans is they studied the Word of God. That's right. And basically they examine the Word of God daily to see if what was being said was true. They were noble. And by the way, they were examining the Apostle Paul. Yeah. And he says good. Yeah. He says good. do that. So you'll hear me. I drop that in sermons all the time. If you ever hear me say something

that is out of line with the word of God, listen to the word of God and ignore me. So that's number one. You've got to be in the word. Number two, there's a couple things I'd say is one, the Bible calls them, when Paul, I didn't have time to get into this. Another reason people think

the church at Ephesus is Paul's favorite church. If you go to Acts chapter 20, my life verse is Acts 2024. However, I consider my life word nothing to me. If only I may finish the race and complete the test, Lord Jesus has given me.

the task of testifying the gospel of God's grace. When Paul says that, he's saying goodbye to the Ephesian elders. When the spirit reveals to him, he's going to go to Rome and probably lose his life. He's like, I got to talk to the Ephesian elders one more time. And it says with many tears, it says. So that's why people think it was his favorite. Another reason. But he said he had been given a prophetic, like what theologians now would call it as a word

of wisdom or a word of knowledge, sorry, a word of knowledge. He says, hey man, the spirit revealed to me that after I leave, fierce wolves are going to come in among you and ravage the flock. We actually know that prophecy was fulfilled based on what Jesus says the church in Revelation too, because he says, hey, false teachers came in. So exactly what Paul said, would happen, did happen. So number one, you got to be in a word, way of thinking about the word. Number two, the Bible calls false teachers,

wolves in sheep's clothing. That means they will look like sheep, but they can't act or sound like sheep. They're wolves in sheep's clothing. They'll look like sheep. They can't act or sound like sheep. So one, when you examine their lives very frequently, there is a significant lack of the fruit of the spirit and character. They can't act like sheep. They can't sound like sheep. They're going to say things. Here's what almost all false teaching boils down to. They've become masters of, did God really say? Man, I believe the Bible, but I'm affirming. I believe the Bible, but I'm, you know, but I'm pro-choice.

I believe the Bible, but, you know, I think some of it would move past that. Actually, the Greek does not mean what you thought it meant. It meant this other thing. Sure. So that's another one. The other thing I'd say is wolves travel in packs. So watch out for this. when you see

not that I have any experience with this when you see a Bible teacher getting mobbed or attacked and then you start clicking on all the bios of the people doing it and it's all rainbow flags and da da da da da wolves travel and packs

so seriously what I think sometimes it gets real easy if you just start going well wait a second that person's saying the same thing that all the rainbow flag people and all the secular progressive atheists and all the secular humanists

and all the apostate, they're all saying the same thing as those people and they're attacking the same people those attack, well, you should probably have a light bulb go off. Wolves travel and backs. Those are three things. There's more, but I'm going to give those three. That's good.

Jenner, any thoughts on false teachings? Out there. I think you hit him. That's pretty comprehensive. That's great. Hey, we're going to jump in the Q&A for Instagram. Obviously, we shared some of those. We opened it up on stories.

And so, by the way, if you are listening to this or watching this and you have a question or, can you please talk about this next episode? Please drop it in the comments. And we might actually test out the whole story thing where people can share questions. So, man, what are five ways you can leverage your nine to five work for the month? All right. I got four. So this is what people.

you know, this is what people finished last week's pod. And they were like, oh, why did he? Why, you needed to say those? So they could join this podcast. That's right. That's right. So yeah, all right, four ways to leverage your career, your nine to five job for the kingdom of God.

I'm going to give four models. Number one, you got the Peter model. This was, he was a fisherman, and then he became a fisher of men. So this is when somebody uses their marketplace skills for ministry. So like, we got a million examples of this. our whole staff. I mean, like, you were a YouTuber.

And now you're leading church online and social media for Lake Point. You know, Jerry Welch, shout out Jerry Welch, our CTO at Lake Point, our chief technology officer. That dude was crushing it. Guess what? As a CTO in an organization. And now he's like, let me leverage those gifts that King's God. Our CFO, Ken Farrow, was a chief financial officer for a rapidly growing amazing company. He's like, well, let me.

let me take a massive pay cut and come to Lake Point and use those skills for the kingdom of God. So that's one. Number two, this is probably more common. I call it the Paul model. A lot of people forget Paul was like a tentmaker. Like this was, he just worked somewhere strategic for the mission of God. A little side note, that's why he stayed in Corinth for three years. I don't have time to go into that, but that's where he was most successful as a tent maker.

and so most people think that's why he stayed in corn for part of why he saved him corn for three years. A great example. This is like at Lake Point, we got a bajillion teachers in the public school system here that honestly what you hear from them very frequently is like, my heart is to reach and disciple kids. And they're like teaching is just my way to get in amidst the kids and do it. And what they're doing is they're just working somewhere strategic for the mission of God. Okay. So that's Paul. That's great.

Number three, I'm going to call this the Lydia model. We'll actually get to Lydia later in this series. Lydia was a super wealthy, like in the fashion industry. She finds Paul. She stays in her high-paying job. And then she leverages her resources and give super generously. and she's the one that funds Paul's traveling church planting ministry. There is no church planting ministry of Paul without Lydia.

Wow. So I'll just say, like, I won't obviously, for obvious reasons, I'm not going to use names. But dude, we got some men and women at Lake Point who like, that's seriously their mindset. They're like, God put me on this planet with a gift to build wealth. and they do it. And yes, they do some awesome and fun things with that for them and their families. But those people also are like they're dropping bombs for the kingdom of God because they're going, you tell us what needs to happen for this church to keep reaching people.

You let me know when. And I want to be the checkwriter. That's the Lydia model. And then last one is I'll just call it the Daniel model. And this is when you do ministry through or in the marketplace. So that's what Daniel did. You know, he's like, cut bear to the king, strategically positioned. And these people are fun to talk.

We talked about Randy and Sheila, Hudson last week, constantly ministering to people. There's a guy in our church name Jimmy. You met Jimmy. I enjoyed my time with Jimmy so much. Shout it to Jimmy. Shout out to Jimmy. Baker Brothers plumbing. Jimmy literally just had a heart for the kingdom.

Hired a pastor, a guy that had been a pastor onto his staff. And when he got on staff with Jimmy, Yeah, the guy did do great work. But part of it is Jimmy is like, hey, man, pastor these dudes. Like he was leveraging his business. Like, let me try to better people's lives with that. Wow. I could go on and on, man, Gus Santos.

We got a bunch of guys. That's helpful. So there's four models. Man, that's great. That's super helpful. You guys add any color to that? Are we good? We good?

Yeah, there are just so many people. It's like, I have so many people come to mind. I just want to say and say what they do. It's like, it's pretty incredible. It's always honestly hearing, because I have a friend, her name's Patchy, and so she's a physical therapist, but every person who comes into her office, she talks with, she prays with. And then it's like those who just have more questions, she meets with them and disciples them outside of their time. It's just amazing. It's like I always learned so much.

And just I think my faith is encouraged and I want to be more like that. That's right. I think the big idea is like just get a vision, get a redemptive. Elevated Vision for how I can leverage where God's position me 9 to 5. That's actually very helpful because, again, some people say, oh, I don't work in a church or most of my week, I spend it somewhere else. And that's good. God has you there for a reason.

You're here for the glory of God in the kingdom of God. That's super helpful. Last question. Why does Pastor Josh use language like sexy crap and rectal of her mom? I'm reading the question, by the way. I'm not just coming up with that term. Literally reading the question. In sermons.

It's a lobby question. There's a... People want to know. I'm going to find out. I'm pulling up something real quick. So let me say a couple things on this. I do get this question every now and then. And let me be the first one to say.

There have clearly been times where I finished and I was like, oh, dang, I shouldn't have done that. But so like my... After like thousands of people already join church online and in person. Yes. That's right. But my... So let me. say a few things here. One is, so first of all, a very clear admission. I don't. I'm not bad in a

thousand. You talk enough in front of people, and I promise you're going to make a mistake. And my goodness, have I before. But let me say a few things. One, my preaching strategy, I don't manuscript sermons. I just don't. I pray myself, I pray and study myself real full, and then I pray my heart hot and then I try to walk up there with a very loose outline and just grip it and rip it and let the Holy Spirit do his thing. That lends itself to honestly like me talking like a normal dude. There's some of that. Two, I would gently push back on this question a little bit and ask that person, couldn't you leverage that same objection towards some of the language that's used in the scriptures?

I think sometimes like Christians like sort of adopt a, you know, safe of the whole family kind of vibe. Bro, like, you read your Bible. There's some earthy language. Yeah. Were you going to? Yeah. I'm just thinking of Paul and some of the things that he said.

Like if putting them, if you were just to translate it and how we would say it now, it's like, wow. I mean, you'd probably be having more people ask you why you said that after. Well, a few things. Well, imagery, too, and illustrations and all the things. I mean, there's a lot of there. There's some stuff in Ezekiel. They're like, there are literally Bible verses I will not say on this podcast. Yeah.

Like right now, I'm like, if I read that verse, it would be too awkward. Uh-huh. So, you know, I would say that to Paul does. Paul will use aggressive language to make an aggressive point at times. Philippians 3-8, he uses the scubola term. That's one of my favorite little jokes. And I'll just say this. A lot of Bible scholars think the best way to translate what scubola means is today we'd be saying bull scubla.

That's what a lot of people think that means. You know, Book of Galatians, Paul's like, I'm just going to say it. that they got a big problem with false teaching around circumcision. And Paul's like, he says, I wish they would go and emasculate themselves. And he literally is making an aggressive joke. They're snipping the tip. I wish you just cut the whole thing off. That's literally, I know, it feels weird to say it.

I mean, he said that. That's a Bible verse. Yeah. That's a Bible verse. So one. He really cut to the chase there. Oh, Carlos. Sorry, I tried, I tried, I tried. I was like, what? Okay.

Oh, my goodness. I got a, I had too many jokes to put up in my head. So, one, I would say the Bible is not above using harsh language to make an aggressive point. Two, faithful preachers should avoid two errors, shying away from language that matches the Bible's intensity out of a fear of people pleasing criticism. and two, going too far and becoming like coarse shock jocks. Like, we're not shock jocks. We're men and women of God with a standard of holiness. So then the last thing I would say here is,

here's my mentality in my preaching. And feel free to, you know, you guys and I hurt my feelings. You're like, have you thought about this? Are you getting any color? Paul said, I've become all things to all men in order that I might save some. you will notice Paul speaks differently to different people, different audiences in the Bible. When I'm preaching, I'm literally, Janet, like,

I'm trying to speak without sinning, this is my mentality, I'm trying to speak like a normal lost dude without sinning. That's my goal. And I do think sometimes what's really difficult is everyone in the room, they have a different emotional calibration for what should and shouldn't be said. Here's what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to force myself to be calibrated

to whoever is the most sensitive person out of 28,000 people. I'm not going to do. That's literally impossible. I'm not going to do that. So what I am going to try to do is just like Paul, I become all people,

all things, all people in order that I might save some. I'm a missionary in a post-Christian culture. So what I'm trying to do is without sinning, how can I talk as much as I can like a normal lost dude. And let me just tell you this. Do you know who doesn't care when I say crap in a sermon? The person who brought there a lost friend and is hoping all preach a sermon

that just that connects with them and that they understand. They don't care. Do you know who doesn't care when I tell a joke in a message? It's the person that has their lost daughter with them. And it's like, I hope they enjoy this. So, you know, I'll say that now. Here's my last one. Here's my clincher. Do you know who else was accused of this? Like, crazy. I'm going, for real, do you know? In the Bible? No, no. Church history. In church history, who do you think was constantly accused of, this guy, his humor is too crass, and he uses language that he shouldn't use in the terms of you know? There's actually two people, but I have an idea. Who you got? Anybody got a guess? It's not Billy Graham, is it? Definitely not.

Yeah, I was going to say. Definitely not. Who you got? The Prince of Preacher's Charles. Charles Spurgeon. The two, Martin Luther and Charles, Bro, go read a Martin Luther sermon. Yes. And it's salty. Let me read. So Charles Spurgeon was once in the newspaper for some things he said in a message that were a little crass in their culture. He responded, I'm going to read this quote from him.

This is him. Charles Spurgeon, Prince of Preachers, late 1800s, Great Britain. I am perhaps vulgar, but it is not intentional. save that I must and I will make the people listen. My firm conviction is that we have had quite enough polite preachers, and many require a change. I love this last sense. God has owned me among the most degraded and offcasts.

In other words, he's saying, my church is reaching like blue-collar dudes, swinging a hammer, you know, the people that your little white-collar, prissy church, they don't want to come to your church. He says, God has owned me among the most degraded and offcasts. Let others serve their class. These are mine. And to them I must keep. I love that. Wow. Prince of Preachers, Charles Version. Disclamor, I am not comparing myself to the Prince of Preachman. Didn't he say to something like, or you didn't like the joke that I included my sermon? You should have heard the ones I did not include in my sermon. Dude, there are a

So I've got a handwritten Charles Spurgeon's sermon note in my office that Jana got me for Christmas many years ago. You can see it on the sermon note in my office. He would go through after he finished preaching and he would cross out everything that he didn't want published. And the stories are that he crossed out almost all of the jokes because he was like, I don't want those published. I'm going to catch hell for it. That's hilarious. So he would cross out the jokes. because he was like, I just don't want to deal with the press.

Yeah. But he did. So you know, the thing that I love most about reading his stuff is that it is real. It cuts to the heart. It's real. And then, you know, it's just kind of like how God uses scripture to cut through the bone and marrow. Like, it just, it seeps in. We've been reading right before bed.

We've been reading Charles Spurgeon's, he's got a little devotional called morning and evening. Highly recommend to any listeners. Like if you're a husband, anybody read it. But if you're a husband and you're like, you know, I've always been trying to look for like an easy, low friction, non-awkward way to like do just a little Bible with my wife or family. But it always feels awkward and I don't know what to do. That was me for a really, really long time. This is it. Like right before we fall asleep, I'll be like, hey, let me read a thing.

And we actually have a rule. Oh, this is a little vulnerable. we have a rule, Jana will not request it so that I don't feel like pressured or badgered into be the spiritual leader, you know. She won't request it.

But any night that I'm up for it, which pretty much every night we go to bed at the same time, every now and then I'll have a late meeting. I'll just go, hey, let me read a thing. And it literally is like a two-minute thing. Yeah. And I'll just read it real quick.

Charles Spurgeon morning and evening. Worth your time. It is. And it's a great way to end your day. That's a very recommendation. Jenna, would you pray for us? I would love to. Father, thank you just so much for how you love us.

And honestly, I just think you just for the example of the Ephesians and how you, honestly, you call them to repentance. You give them a chance to repent. And so I just, I praise you for that. And thank you that you offer the same thing to us. So, Father, I just pray that you will just call us closer to you. Call us to repentance. Call us to know you.

know you more, Father. I just pray that you will set our hearts aflame for you, that you will restore our affections for you. And I just give us the love that we had in the past, Father, restore us to the joy of our salvation, Father, and to make our hearts new. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.

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