Live Free with Josh Howerton - Shattering 6 Megachurch Myths You’ve Fallen For | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

What does faithfulness look like when the ground beneath you literally shakes? In this deep dive into Revelation 3:7–13, Pastors Josh Howerton, Carlos Erazo, and Tim Smith, unpack the powerful message to the church in Philadelphia—a community that stood firm through earthquakes and persecution, earning Jesus' pure commendation. They explore what it means to be a spiritual pillar in a crumbling culture, how ancient history intersects with modern mission, and why evangelism isn’t just for “professional Christians.” Plus, the crew tackles common myths about megachurches and shares practical ways to live like Jesus really is returning soon.    Stick around for a lively debate about Beast Games, and a moment of inspiration from a NASA believer who brought church to orbit.     👍 Like, Comment, & Subscribe for more life-changing podcasts! 🔔 Turn on notifications so you never miss an update!     👇 DON’T MISS OUT! Whatever your gifts are, we want to help you find YOUR Serve Team! Click the link to get started and explore how you can make a difference -- https://lakepointe.church/serve/      ⛪ ABOUT LAKEPOINTE CHURCH: We believe that Lakepointe is a movement for all people to Know God, Find Freedom, Discover their Calling, and Make a Difference. With 6 DFW locations and programs for all ages, there's something for everyone. 🤝 Support this ministry and help us reach more people with the Gospel: https://pushpay.com/g/lakepointe/    STAY CONNECTED: 🌐 Website: https://lakepointe.church/ 👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lpconnect/ 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lpconnect  🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lakepointechurch      🎧 LISTEN ON THE GO! ▶️ Live Free on Spotify / https://open.spotify.com/show/353ryGdZNlebaiqkCcy3Yc  ▶️ Live Free on Apple Podcasts / https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/live-free-with-josh-howerton/id1669321198 

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howardton. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And our prayer is these deep dive conversations about the Word of God equip you to live free in Christ. This is a test drive, and we'll decide whether or not to do more seasons based on engagement. So if this is helpful to you, if you could rate, review, or share, that will help us to know what's helpful. For more digital content, visit lakepoint.compturch slash livefew. free. And now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the live live free podcast. My name is Carlos Arraso, and I'm here with Pastor Josh Howardton and Pastor Tim Smith.

What's going on, guys? Man, happy to be here. Bishop Smith back in the house. Whoa, and new special microphones. Can they see that? With the live free sticker. Look that. Wait, is that the shot? Get that shot. Do we have that? There you go. Look, it says live free. Who did that? Was that Brooke or who was that? Trinity? Everybody's like pointing at each other. Everyone's pointing at each other. The Spider-Man meme. It's the humility of the room. Team. Hey man. I have a question for you guys. Any TV shows that you guys have been watching? Stop. Are you going to the end? No, no, no, we're just going to tease it. I was just curious. Tim, I'm curious, what are you watching? I'm watching, actually watching a lot of basketball these days.

Okay. No TV shows? No TV shows. Are you watching the tournament? I have been watching the tournament. You know, Ole Miss made it much further than we've ever made it. Sorry about Kentucky, by the way. I know. It was our first time in the Sweet 16 in three years, so honestly Kentucky fans were pretty, we were fine. Yeah, I've been watching it. So Carlos, no, I haven't been watching. He's your time for? Yeah, I think I had, I didn't have Houston.

So I had Tennessee and the other ones. So I was three out of four. So the only one he cut out was the Texas one. Welcome to Texas. Yeah, man. I love Texas. I love Texas. Good, man.

right place. Yeah, any random TV shows. Dude, so if you want to talk about this at the end, we can. I just finished watching Beast games with my kids. Let's go. Dude, it was dark. What? Yes. I'm curious. It was dark. We need to talk about this. Let's do it. I just finished like, I think last week or whenever the last episode aired. It was fun. Did you like it? I did not like it. Honestly, I would love to talk about it. So the reason that we did it, we can debate. That's fine. The reason we watched it is somebody had recognized. committed it to him and they were like, dude, this show's clean. Actually, we'll save this because in one sense it was, in another sense, I was like, dude, I got to do a lot of

discipleship with my kids watching this thing. Oh, wow. Yeah. So Mr. Beast went dark? Let's talk about it. I thought it was. I thought it was dark. You want to name the title of this podcast, why Josh hates Mr. Beast? No, I do not. No, I do not. We love Mr. Beast. Jesus loves Mr. Beast. We want Mr. Beast and know Jesus and love Jesus too. Mr. Beast. We're waiting for you to join church online. And then at some point, we'd love to have you here in person. anytime. All right, man, so we're going to talk about that in just a little bit, but we can talk about Revelation 3, 3, 3, now. Yeah, we're officially in Revelation 3 now. Let's go, man. It's a good. I like this one. It's a different kind of letter. We'll talk about why. But before, I would love to,

first of all, invite people to share, comment, subscribe, rate, review. Dude, podcast is taken off. It's going great. Some good momentum. We've been really surprising. I mean, ever since we had Tim on that episode, It was just like, listen, it has nothing to do with me, but these stickers, we're going over the door. This is going to, it's going to explode. We got Tim and stickers. Oh, my goodness. It's all the Arthur factor.

It's the stickers. And so thank you for the love. And honestly, just everything that's coming our way, that people are saying that they appreciate it and it's helpful, which is awesome. So we'll keep working on it. I'd love to right now react to a video that you had to fly for several hours to go to this place. And that guy. And this guy. We both did. Yeah. So these are live witnesses of this location. The two witnesses from Revelation. Wow. Wow. Man, I'm surrounded by, you know, glory over here. So man, let's watch this video and then let's talk about it. I haven't seen this.

I didn't see this until this weekend. That's great. Two thousand years ago, the city I'm standing in Philadelphia was called Little Athens as it was a gateway to Asia Minor. And today, honestly, there's not a left because around the year 17 AD this city got absolutely beaten like a pinata with earthquake after earthquake after earthquake but in the midst of that something amazing happened the church of Jesus Christ stood firm this is one of two churches that receive a purely encouraging letter from the risen Lord Jesus because in the midst of intense persecution Jesus looked at the faithfulness of this little church laying at all

the line for their Lord, and he actually used the imagery of these massive, fixed pillars that are around me to say you will be a pillar in the house of my God. Because when everything else around them was shaking, they stood firm. Dude, so that was one of the sites where our guide had to distract the guys at the front so we could film real quick. I don't know if you know on that particular site. I spent several hundred dollars worth of Turkish Lira buying bookmarks that had the seven churches

from the two guys. So the security guys had a truck outside the gate. I went over and he literally opens up his truck and shows me all this gear and it costs me a few hundred Turkish Lira so that we could keep filming. Look over here. Look over here.

Who were the two guys? There was a couple of Muslim guys. There's a mosque like right next door. I don't know if it actually, I can't remember if it made any of the shot. But like it's a little depressing because a mosque with a huge minaret towers, towers over that thing. Is it mirror a lot of these locations to have a bunch of mosques all around? Well, Turkey is, I mean, Turkey is like, I think it's like 97% Muslim now. Aggressively Muslim.

Interesting. And actually, when we get into talking about some nuggets here, that kind of ties into the history of this church. Yeah, yeah. So let's dive in. You guys were breathing the air. You guys were there. What else from this passage, you know, that you guys were like, we need to include this, does not make it to the discernment.

So there's a couple things that are really interesting about this. So number one, ancient Philadelphia, a little different than modern Philadelphia. It was known as being marked by brotherly love. If you're watched a Philadelphia Eagles game on TV, that is not the reputation anymore. But, you know, I think a lot of people know this, but Philadelphia, obviously that came from this city. Phila, Fila, Greek word for love, Adelphos, Greek word for brother. So brotherly love. So the city is founded by two ancient brothers, Greek brothers, and that's where you get the name.

Obviously, it's on a fault line. So all of church history says that church is like over and over and over again, getting just demolished by these earthquakes. What is interesting is so Jesus, obviously in this passage, he says to this church, you're going to be a pillar in the house of my God. It is real, I mean, it's one of those things like, you know, nothing's a coincidence or is it kind of thing where it's like, where it's like, The only thing left, so a huge church gets built there. And that's the pillars that we were just seeing. That church probably ceded up to a thousand people. When the earthways come through and the Muslim conquests happened,

both of them destroy the church. The only thing that remains are those massive pillars from this church that Jesus said, you're going to be pillars in the house of God. So it's like, I don't know, dude, it was a little like, it was cool for me going, man, the words of Jesus, there's an anchoring power there. So that's going, obviously he mentions the key, I didn't have time to get it in this in the sermon.

So Jesus says he's got the key of David. We've hit David at Covenant on this podcast twice now. I don't need to go there again. But what he's doing is kind of the same way that when somebody, like we even have this on staff, I actually got a key this week on staff. You know I got one of those two keys? Yeah.

A little master keys. Master key. When you reach a certain level on our staff, and you have a certain level of authority, you get a key that corresponds with your authority. What Jesus is saying here is he's like, over the house of God, I'm the one that holds a keys. I've got the authority over the house.

I decide what doors get open and what doors get shut, nobody else does that. What I didn't have time to get to in the message is he's very, very obviously referencing back to Isaiah 22. So I'm going to read this passage. This is Isaiah 22 is two verses. In that day, I will call my servant Eliacum,

son of Hilkaya. So it's talking about a king. I'll clothe him with your robe, bind your sash on him, and we'll commit your authority to his hand, and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the house of Judah, and I will place on his shoulder, and here's where it is, the key of the house of David. He shall open and none shall shut, he shall shut, he shall shut, and none shall open. So it's like Jesus is extremely overtly going, okay, in the way, They're kind of like how Bible scholars will talk about that most Old Testament prophecies, they call it dual fulfillment. Right. Or they'll call it prophetic foreshortening.

There was an immediate fulfillment. That was a historical fulfillment. And then there's also an eternal fulfillment in the kingdom of God. So that prophecy was fulfilled in one sense by an Old Testament king. But Jesus is gone, I am ultimately fulfilling that over the whole kingdom. So I think that's kind of cool. That is cool. Amazing.

It's interesting how in all these letters, it seems like Jesus uses all these imagery from either things that haven't already been written in Scripture or even things that are happening in the city. So in this case, the pillars, obviously, the key of David. That's awesome. And those pillars, we cannot do justice to how big those things are right. They're massive. And just one little footnote on the pillars. I was reading about the background there. The people, like when the earthquake shook, you know, the pillars stayed that the people who lived there actually. slept outside of the city. And they would come in during the day to work and do business,

and then they would go back out at night because they didn't want to be around if the buildings collapsed because of all these earthquakes. And so I was reading, man, there's even a little foreshadowing when Jesus is saying to these people, there's going to come a day when you won't have to leave the city. But he's actually pointing to the future city of God. Wow. There's going, so when you think about this pillar, hey, there's going to come a day where I'm going to be the pillar of the city and you're going to come in to me and you'll never have to go out. Come on, man. That'll preach.

This text of Isaiah, it was written 700 years before Christ. And it's interesting again, and how much time went by before Jesus comes in. And he says, man, I got the key. I'm the guy. And, you know, there's this theme in scripture of Jesus returning soon. And, you know. Before you go here? Yeah.

All right, can I give one more nugget? And then we go here. Yeah. Because we'll talk about Return of Christ here in a second. It would be fun. So one of the thing I did think was interesting. So like maybe I'm the only one whose brain works like this. But sometimes I'll read a passage like this.

And there'll be an apparent tension in scripture. And it'll bug me. It gets like a splinter in my head. So for like our super Bible nerds, like extra credit times 10 points if you notice this when you read the passage. So he says to them, they're going to be a pillar in the temple of the house of God. But for our super Bible nerds, they know, Revelation 22 says there is no temple in the new earth.

So if you're a super Bible nerd, like I'll get that in my head. It's like a little splinter. But what's important to know is he's saying, he's saying the pillar thing in the house of God, he's saying to this church, it's a metaphor. And he's saying you actually, to that church, he's going, you're going to hold up,

you're going to hold up the church. Bible scholars think almost like in this region you're going to be used by me to hold something when everything else falls you're going to remain so dude you know I mentioned this in a couple of the services I can't remember forgot in all of them but tragically someday we need to talk about Islam in this podcast but tragically so you get into the 12 through 1400 the Muslim conquest they sweep through turkey dude this same church continuously was alive and functioning from AD 100 all the way to the Muslim conquest in 12, you know, 12, somewhere in 12, I think it's like 1,400s through the 1400s, somewhere around there.

That church is still going. They were the last church remaining in Turkey. Wow. When the Muslim conquest come through. So, dude, you think about it, 1,200 years earlier, Jesus told these people, you're going to be the pillar that doesn't fall. Wow. And they were.

Wow. They were the last one remaining. Wow. That's awesome. Then the Muslims killed them all, which is not awesome. Wow. But they were faithful unto death. Amazing.

So actually the story goes, we don't need to live here too long, that when the Muslim conquest sweeps through Philadelphia, that they actually, they found all these people, men, women, and children in the church and beheaded them in men, men, women, and children. in the church. So they died in the church where they, you know, gathered and we're receiving this letter. It's amazing. Amazing testament to this church. That is. I mean, there's a reason why Jesus in the other letters, there's like a rebuke and a complaint, but not this one. This is one of the two letters in the seven letters where Jesus is saying, hey, great job, keep going. That's right. Yeah. Man, and so, you know, as you say that, even there's like, there's a

hope in the church again. You're talking about coming soon? Yeah, Jesus is coming soon. And so even as we face struggles, even as things, you know, the Muslims come in and chaos happens, there's a hope that ultimately our Savior is coming soon again. And so, man, I heard you, I think you said it was a, I don't know if it was a week ago or a couple weeks ago, you said, you basically said, this is when Jesus is coming soon. I did not say that. You did not say that.

But there have been some people that have said, hey, actually they either do some math or they predict, like, I believe Jesus is going to come soon. soon and people rearranged their lives. Like, you did not say that. You did say that some people think that Jesus is coming soon based on a particular set of mathematical equation. To tell us more about that. So, and I, dude, I think there might be something to this.

But so here's what I would say is, first of all, Jesus said, nobody's going to know the day of the hour. Right. So anytime, like, there's that hilarious, you can actually look this up on Amazon. And I think it's like, I think it's 80 reasons Jesus is returning. returning in 1980. And then the next year the guy wrote,

81 reasons Jesus is returning in 1981. Like, it's literally on Amazon. You can get a used copy to this day. So it's, you know, he said, nobody's going to know their day or the hour. But he did say you'll know the times are seasons. Yeah, that's right. So I don't make too much fun of people.

If somebody's gone, it's on August 32nd. Wait, that's not even a day. I'd really make fun of that guy. Yeah. But if somebody's like, it's on August 16th, and this year, I'm like, eh. Well, Jesus is rebuked. people because they said, man, you guys can read the, kind of get a gauge on the weather,

but you need to understand like the seasons and the context of culture. And so there's something there. That's right. So here's what, here's what some theologians have pointed out that, dude, honestly, it puts hope in my heart. This is what I'm like, oh Lord, I want this one to be true, you know. All right. So here's, here's the math why some people go, no, no, like, potentially within the next decade. Christ could, could return. And this is a maybe. Nobody needs to go out and don't get rid of your 401k and buy 10,000 rounds of ammo. You know, it's like we want to live with wisdom and have a heart full of faith. Don't invests in crypto and, you know.

We do not get financial advice on the price. Okay, there you go, there you go. So this is what I would say. So here's the math that some people will do. All right. So here's what they'll point out. In the Old Testament, here's the pattern. Work six days, one rest one day.

that's how it got great of the world. Work six days, rest one day. And then I think it's the book of Isaiah says that with God, a thousand years like a day. No, no, that's not Isaiah. That's a New Testament. And it's referencing an Old Testament statement. A thousand years like a day and a day is like a thousand years.

So here's what some people have pointed out. All right. It's almost exactly 2,000 years from Jesus to Abraham, who establishes the self-ific covenant with God. is almost, if not exactly, 2,000 years from Abraham to Jesus. Now, we'll do a little, this is some fun math. In the last, I think it's like 10 years, historians and archaeologists, now they really almost pinpoint the crucifixion of Jesus specifically to 33 AD.

They used to kind of go like, ah, it's probably in this four-year range. But now what they figured out is there was only one year under Pontius Pilots reign when the Passover was on a Friday. So only one year under Pontius Pilate Passover's on a Friday was Christians with our New Testament's open. We're going, well, that was the year. Jesus was crucified. That was the one. And it was 33 AD. All right. So if you mark it from 33 AD and fast forward 2,000 years, That's in eight years. That's in 2003 is when that would put us.

Now, here's why some theologians will do that, is they'll go, hey, remember the pattern. A thousand years is like a day. Days like a thousand years. And the pattern is work, six days, rest one day. Well, the Book of Revelation, by some interpretations, the Book of Revelation talks about a thousand-year millennial reign of Christ. There's different interpretations about when that's going to happen and in what order. Is that figurative? Is that literal, et cetera? But if you go, work six days, rest one day. A thousand years is like a day.

All of a sudden it like makes sense. 2,000 years, two days from Adam to Abraham. 2,000 years, two more days from Abraham to Jesus. 2,000 years, two more days from Jesus to his return. and then 1,000 years last day, the rest day, a rest under the reign of Christ during his millennial reign. Well, you know, that puts him returning like in the next decade. So some theologians do that. I'll just last thing I'll say here, and then if you guys got extra thoughts, that's awesome.

The New Testament repeatedly commands Christians to live as if his return could be soon. so I'm like I think it's actually good for our hearts to go yeah dude I could wake up tomorrow hear a trumpet and be looking at my savior in the face yeah I have some thoughts but him what do you got well I mean again that's amazing yes the one somebody by the way somebody really work hard to figure that out which is so helpful yeah you know and again know the season the the the one stipulation right goes back to mark that Jesus has meant all that can happen, but before I come, the gospel's got to be preached to all the nations. All nations.

So again, there's a tie in here. Be ready. And while you're being ready, take the most of every opportunity to make sure that the gospel is known to every people group. That's right. And so there is a condition for all of that, and that is that we get the gospel to the people who need it. Yeah, well, my question was, man, what do we, because that's true, because we are called to live as if Jesus is returning soon, man, what do we do? scripture says that

God does not want anybody to be lost that he wants everybody to come to repentance and the reason that he hasn't come back yet that Jesus has not come back yet is because he's waiting patiently for people to come to repentance and so my question was what is our role in this as Christians

okay how does it look like to live as if Jesus is returning soon Tim you mentioned when you you share your faith you preach the gospel you are light in the middle of darkness which is what is called today evangelism. And so I want to click on that a little bit. What is evangelism? Why does it

matter? How do you do it? Yeah. Well, you know, what he tells this church here is he's like, hey, man, I've opened a door to you. And, you know, very frankly, that's a door that's been open for every Christian. Is the door to walk through of sharing your faith of somebody else. Which is interesting because, Judge, in the New Testament, an open door imagery is frequently used to refer to an opportunity to preach the gospel. I got some samples here. First Corinthians 69, Paul says, for a wide door for effective work has opened to me. And in 2 Corinthians 2.12, when I came to the city of trust to preach the good news of Christ, the Lord opened a door of opportunity for me. Again, he's talking, this is an opportunity for me to preach to gospel.

Colossians 4.3 says, and pray for us too, that God may open a door for our message so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ for which I am in chains. Yeah. So there it is. You know, you're asking what it is. So first of all, that word, use the word evangelism. That can be a big, weird, churchy word for people. It really shouldn't be. It wasn't to them when they read it. So the word, it comes to the Greek word, Evangelion, that just means good news.

It wasn't a spiritual word. It was literally just meant good news. It was actually, I'll get to this, as I guess it's a military term. So when they would talk about an evangelist, this was a military position, almost like a scout. So what they would do, and I'll shorten this, is when a battle was taking place on behalf of a city, they would send all their young men out to do battle against the enemy. And, you know, they didn't know the outcome of the battle. So it was like, man, if those guys lose, then their failure gets imputed to us. And if they win, then their success gets imputed to us.

So if they fail, we all become slaves and lose everything and get taken. you know, captive. If they win, that means we get to live, abundant life, and we're free. So then what they would do is they would take usually a young man in the city that was known as being fast, and they would send that guy, he was called an evangelist, and they would send him to go watch the battle. And as soon as the outcome of the battle was done, this little military emissary would run back to the city with news, which is, by the way, that, That's why Romans 10, I think, is the, it says how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news. Because as, as, this is actually a cool little tidbit.

As they were watching, they would be watching whatever hilltop that they were like, the battles that way, he's going to crest that hill. And they could tell by how the guy was running. Is he bringing good news and he's thrilled? or is he bringing terrible news and he's despairing? Wow. Which is why Roman sense says, how beautiful the feed of those who bring good news.

That guy was called an evangelist. So he's coming over the hill going, good news, the battles won, abundant life, you're free. We're free. So what's an evangelist and what's evangelism, it's just some way of a million different forms of sharing the news that Jesus has won the battle on our behalf and that his righteousness and victory can be imputed to us.

Other thoughts here? That's incredible. Do you guys think, you know, if somebody's listening to this and they're saying, oh, yeah, well, he's a pastor. So, of course, you proclaim the good news. Of course, you share the gospel. Or Tim, you know, you've been in church your whole life. I mean, you're a professional Christian and, you know, you're in ministry.

But what about people like that are not that? What about people that are just, man, I just kind of go to work. And, I mean, I don't know everything that you know about the Bible. how do I actually like practice this? Where if I'm a Christian, you are called to share the gospel, to embody the gospel to be an extension of who Jesus is, wherever you are, whether that's in a church or whether that's in your workplace, 9 to 5 or at home, whatever it is.

What would you guys say to that person? I've got two things. You know, it's like just living through a lot of like training for evangelism. I'd like to say it's like, I really like, I love what I see at Lake Point and a lot of great. churches right now of just helping people understand how to tell their story of what God has done. I live through tracks, Evangicube, evangelism explosion. I've been to a lot of crusades. And again, I think what began to happen is there was just seemed to be we were doing more

training and less people were sharing their faith. That's really what I've seen over the last 20 years. And I don't have any tangible, you know, statistical data to prove that, but that's just the way it feels. I really have like this movement that I've seen over the last few years of helping people, you know, fulfill 1st Peter 315. Hey man, be ready to give an answer for the, you know, whoever asks you a question, do it with, you know, hope, be reasonable, be gentle, you know, but it's like just helping my, I always try and say to people is like, hey, if you're a believer in Christ, what people want to hear from you is your own story of how God's changed your life. And a shout out, just a little shout out, later on this year in our church, we're going to be

releasing an amazing spiritual formation tool called Rooted. And there's a week in Rooted, which we're training leaders right now in Rooted. And we just had like two weeks ago in the group that I'm training, we had this experience where we talk to people about how do you share your story. It was awesome. It's absolutely amazing to give people just a few tips on, hey, man, what happened before Christ, when was the moment, and then begin to articulate where the gospel met your life. And it's riveting and powerful to hear people share their story.

And so, Carlos, I've come all the way back around. As simple as I can make it is, is like, man, hone in on how to share your story. in three or four minutes because the people that you have influence with who love you, they want to hear it. They want to hear it. Here's what I like about that. What Tim said, why that's so powerful, is I think a lot of Christians get, it's not that they don't want to share their faith, is that they don't know how and they're intimidated.

Yes. And they forget the New Testament word it uses is witness. So what happens is Christians, it says witness not lawyer. So they'll confuse their position in the courtroom. know my lawyer's job is to make an airtight case. I got to be able to answer every question that somebody throws at me and make an irrefutable logical, you know, an irrefutable logical, you know, defense for the, da, da, da, da, well, it's like, no, no, that's not what a witness does. A witness just shares their side of the story. And so it's like what Tim just said,

if you just learn how to, dude, here's my elevator pitch on here's where I was. Here's how the gospel in Jesus intersected my life. And here's what I've seen. Like, you did your job, man. That's the witness thing. Now what I would say, let me say one last thing and then I'll make it back to you. You were saying, what would you say to the person as like, you're a professional Christian and, you know, I got to be good for nothing. You know, whatever. You're paying.

You get paid on that kind of thing. Dude, honestly, I think that person, like this, I hope this doesn't sound bad. I think that person has an easier evangelism in. And I'm not joking. And I say that to encourage the listener because, man, so many people have been Christian so long they forgot what it's like to be lost. It's like, when you're a lost person, here's how most people get saved, dude. This is not rocket science. They see somebody that's a Christian that they like, and they find out that

person's a Christian, and then they're like, well, I could be a Christian like that guy. Well, it's like, honestly, I think some people, like, I'm just, this is not me, false humility or self-deprecation. There's a whole lot of people that they're never going to look at me and kind of go, I, you know, he's a little, sometimes a little unhinged and this jeans or whatever, and I don't know if I could be a Christian like that. But they'll look at Mark Andrews, so I'm going to give a shout out to a Lake Point guy. They'll look at a guy like Mark Andrews, this build a great business, got a great family. That guy's a soul winner. Like, he leverages his influence in his organization to better people's lives. He's not weird or cringy, but he's real open.

yeah, dude, I'm the Jesus, I'm the Jesus guy. Yeah. And how could I bless your life, you know? Yeah. And I think people look at a guy like that. Well, I could be a Christian like that. Yeah. Well, that's everybody that's listening. Yeah. And I love that because Acts chapter 1,8 says, you talk about being a witness, man, you just tell your story. God actually gives you power to tell your story.

Yeah, she goes. So it's not just like you muster up some sort of courage to, you know, talk to that person and tell them what happened to your life. It's more like, man, God gives you supernatural power through the Holy Spirit to so that you can actually speak boldly and courageously. And I love that because I think, you know, as people say things like, man, I don't know, Christian kind of seemed a little boring. It's like, what are you talking about? You're on a mission where God's going to empower you with His Holy Spirit to share the gospel

so that somebody's soul is safe from hell. That is one of the most exciting things that you can be a part of. And so there's an encouraging part there. I want to watch a clip from an astronaut at some point. Can we do it? Give me one minute before, but I do want to say this. Good. You know, when I think of like how God used for me, God used me as a child, I got saved at an early age. And all my life, I grew up with all my friends who were non-Christians.

And I remember, you know, I just felt a passion. I just, I felt like a burden, honestly, to know that I have received salvation and I've met Jesus and my friends had not. And so I just felt like, man, how do I share with you? And so what I did, you know, so I'm thinking about this, three things that I did. One, it was really easy for me. In my church, growing up, the pastor would say, hey, especially in youth group, invite your friends to church. Yeah. And I was like, okay, great. So literally went to my friends and said, man, you know, would you want to come with me to church?

And so did that. Now, in my background, my church was not necessarily super welcome friendly to somebody outside the church. So that's a different conversation. That's not true with Lake Point, by the way. So you can invite somebody to Lake Point. But two, what I did is, one, I also had like a one-on-one relationship, you know, whenever people knew I was a Christian, and I was intentional knowing.

hey, they can't just hear me talk about God. They need to see me, like, live it out. And so I think that's a huge thing that I think sometimes people think, well, I need to say the right things. No, you need to live the right way. And then the third thing I did that I think was one of the most impactful things for me was I served in my church. I became a small group leader.

And our church was like, hey, we need people that are willing to lead groups. And I said, sure, like I would love to participate. And so that, for me, I was probably one of the most impactful ways for me to invite other people as I served. And so I say that because this weekend, I think you said something along the lines, Josh, of like, hey, Easter's coming up. Yeah, that's right. And say that one more time. What's the, what did you say? So, like, I'll give a little peek behind our strategy. We're unashamed of this. So number one, that's why we do the, that's why we do one more cards. Like people will sometimes say about Lake Point, they say, man, you guys just trying to get real big.

Actually, no. Like, we're really just trying to reach one more. person. We want everybody to reach one more person. That's just about one more. So that's why we do the one more cards because nobody, you never hit a target you didn't draw. I like me this morning, my one more card is on, I don't post a picture of it because I don't want the guy's name on the internet. But my one more card is on my bathroom mirror. And every day when I brush my teeth at the beginning of the day and the end of the day, that's what I do is I pray for my one more. So number one, that's why we do that. Number two, that's why we do the, you can, people can think this stupid all they want. That's why we do the free teaser Sunday. Like it's what you just said. The clip we're going

to watch in a second is legendary. Like honestly, half the battle of evangelism is just the people around you knowing you're the Jesus guy or you're the Jesus girl and it's not weird and but you're not hiding it. So it's like it's an easy way. Like, oh, do you tell me about your shirt or like you wear the shirt. But it's like, oh, okay, cool. It's a conversation. But then the pitch this week, I'm totally unashamed of this, is at Easter. So the stat is, I looked out right before this podcast. The stat is the 89% of people, 89% of people said that they would say,

they were very likely to say yes to an invite from a friend to an Easter service. So whether you go to Lake Point or not, this is your chance. 89% of the people around you are thinking they're going to say yes. So, you know, at Lake Point, that's, you know, it's kind of Super Bowl. last year there's 42,000 people there and there'll be a lot more this year. So it's like our pitch this year was,

hey man, if you're one way that we all pitch in and reach more people is, I just unashamedly kind of go, hey man, if you're not serving out of volunteer ministry team, would you give me one week? Just you don't got to join forever. Just give us one week to serve,

all hands on deck to fire the cannonball against the kingdom of darkness. Well, hey guys, as you know, Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know God, live free, and make a difference. But here's the thing. Movement by definition, move. And so if you're not moving, then are you really being a part of the movement? In fact, somebody once said this, that too many churches are like football games,

22 people on the field in desperate need of rest, being watched by thousands of people in descends in desperate need of exercise. And hey, listen, we refuse to be. a church like that. God has given each of us gifts and talents that were made to be a part of his movement. And so if you have not yet joined a serve team, I want to invite you to take your next step like right now. Text the word serve to 20411 and we'll help you find your spot where you can make a difference in person or online, whether that's serving in our digital ministry teams to help out with projects like this podcast or on our greeter team or maybe even

serving with our kids team, whichever serve team you are being called to. Hey, thank you for your obedience to God's calling in your life and let's keep doing this together. Pastor Josh, before we go to that video, I want to say, I think you've done, you've been amazingly helpful for me and we were talking about it last week. In regard to this idea of evangelism, the genius of one more, the beauty of praying, the beauty of serving, the beauty of moving to Saturday and seats for people. Is this idea in a very practical way, what we're saying to people in regard to evangelism is just be a part of the process of allowing the Holy Spirit to move them to the next

place where they may encounter God himself. And I think so much of the pressure, you know, is like when we think, oh, man, there's an open door. You know, we talk about the passage, the open door. The open door is that I argue that person into the kingdom. And it's not. It's just people being faithful in the process. And I think you've done, you've been amazing.

And you've preached some messages on that. And I gave you credit for them. And you said, actually, Tim, Pastor Steve was the first one in the regard to. The one to 10. Yeah, the one to 10. But, man, I think that's so helpful to people to know, man, just be faithful to be a part of the process. Dude. So before we toss this clip up here, or is that what we're going next?

Yeah. All right. I'll say something, but, yeah, go ahead. All right. Honestly, man, here's how I feel like most people get saved. They got somebody around them who they know is the Jesus guy or the Jesus girl that they like. Then their life falls apart and they know who to run to. I'm seriously, I seriously think that's how like 90% of salvation's happen.

Somebody around them is open about being the Jesus person. Their life falls apart and then they run there. So when we throw this clip up, so here's why everybody's getting ready to see and I'll kick back to Carlos because you're going to say something. Actually, you say it and then I'll set it. I'll do that. I just want to say, I love that you mention how you pray for your one more every day. And, you know, this is a cool story. I think there's just so much power in those prayers because one thing you need to know about me, like I am, my thing for the last, you know, 15, 20 years has been my, again, I grew up with my friends, non-believers. I pray for them every day or, you know, very frequently. I want to see my

friends come to know Christ and that's my thing. A lot of what I've done in the last 15 years is because of that. And so in high school, I remember, you know, praying at some point, I was like, God, would you ever give me a chance to have all my friends? We're like a, you know, my grade, we had like 100 people. So, you know, and I said, I prayed. I said, God, can you, would you ever give me a chance to have them all together in the same room? This is like me in like ninth grade. And I would love to share with them all at once, just kind of my faith. This is what I believe. This is were and it was just a little you know sometimes i think of hypothetical impossible dreams and that was one of my prayers and i say that because i think if somebody's asking right now man i don't honestly

i feel like i don't do that i've never shared my faith man i would say i would challenge you you should ask god to give you the chance and give you the opportunity because god loves to respond to those prayers and so that's a prayer i did uh you know my senior year i said would you give me one chance just one opportunity to share my faith with everybody in the room at the same time and my year, we had a thing where, you know, we had in the ceremony for graduation, we had three speeches, the valedictorian, salutatorian, and then we had a third speech that was basically like the whole class voted for one person to give a speech because they said, we just want to hear from that guy. And for whatever reason, I missed a day where you had to vote, so I didn't

vote. And then I come back the other day, and I remember my teacher saying, hey, you're whole, and by then, by the way, I've lost all my friends because I was a Christian, so all my non-Christian friends were doing things that were invited me to do, but you know, at some point, like, this guy's not going to come with us to do those things. So I lost some of my friends, serving in church, but they said, hey, the whole class voted, and they want you to give a speech for graduation. And so I did. It was graduation and it was just not my friends, but everybody in the family. And again, that's just one way where God heard my prayer, hey, would you give me one chance to share my faith the whole class? And I did. And so, again, it's just to encourage

people. Amazing. Also, don't let me, I can't not share this and then we'll kick to this, this video. So you're a prayer there. First of all, names redacted, but it's like one of our friends that was in our Rudy group. Actually, I'm going to skip that story, but I'll give this one. So George Mueller, you know who George Mueller is?

He was the guy that started all the orphanages in Great Britain. They called him the defender of Bristol's orphans. And he was a faith guy. Amazing, hero of the faith. So he, in his journal, when he died, they found his journal. And he had five friends from around his high school era that were lost. And he prayed for the same five guys his whole life. And he go through his life.

And there's four of them that while he was alive over the course of 50 years, he saw all four of these guys come to Christ. True story, he prays for these guys literally, you know, last one the day he dies. At his funeral, that guy comes to his funeral, hears the gospel and gets saved at George Mueller's funeral. Wow. And it's like, man, don't sleep on what happens when you ask God to save somebody you love. That's right. And then you go, however you want to use me, God.

And by the way, that's when the Christian life gets really fun and exciting. So let's give an example. So here's what everybody's going to see. So all these astronauts that Elon Musk just saved from whatever, they were stuck in that space station. This guy was, I think, the captain of the ship. And this reporter asks him when he gets back a question. So let's just watch it.

This is awesome. I heard that you were still attending your church services from space. Right. Can you tell me a bit about why that was important for you? to do? Well, goodness, the word of God continually infilling me, I need it. My pastors are the finest pastors on or off, in this case, the planet. And to tie end and to worship with my church family was vital. I mean, it's part of what makes me go. Life is a, our life, all of our lives, are bound up in many things. For me, and I, it's faith in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is the

end all be all. He forgives us. He teaches us when his words says about being content in all situations because he's working out his planning his purposes for his glory and our good. And I believe that because the Bible says that. And that's the message that I lived. We lived it. My family lived it. We taught them these things throughout their lives. And that's contentment. It doesn't mean always happy. It doesn't mean there's no pain. But content and knowing that God's in control, sovereign God's in control working out his plan and his purpose. And you might say, well, goodness, that wasn't a very good thing. God did that. Well, he's working out his plan and his purpose. I mean, who's, who's lived a life without pain? I mean, no one. That's the nature of the, of existence.

Who's lived a life without sorrow? Who's lived a life without challenges? It grows us. We learn from it, and that's the focus that I try to take from it. What's the Lord trying to show me? Isn't that awesome? That's amazing. Wow. Just this told the story. It's astronaut, man. He's literally just like, hey, this is what I know. This is what I've been through. This is what I believe. There you go.

That's it. I just want to say, it's not a pastor. That's not a conference speaker. You know, that's a dude, you know, a lot of people out there. You swing a hammer. You teach a class. You drive a spaceship. Yeah.

It's like he just went, yeah, man. I'm the Jesus guy. And let me tell you how great he is. That's amazing. When Elon takes us to Mars, we're planning on planning a Lake Point campus in Mars, right? It's going to be awesome. I'm going to let somebody else. guinea pig that.

I'm concerned about property costs there. It's kind of my area. You'll figure it out. I'm sure. You're a pro at that. You're an expert of that. Oh, man. That's amazing.

Well, hey, we got to keep going here. I love that this church, man, Jesus is like, hey, keep going. And I wonder if they were like, oh, you know, because the other letters have, again, rebukes, I wonder if anybody in this church was like, oh, is Jesus after this going to say something like we need to improve or do it? When's the hammer drive? Oh, like, so far so good. but is it coming after?

And so Jesus is like, no, man, you got it. This is basically like Jesus saying, this right here is a good church. That's right. This is a good church. And I want to talk a little bit about, man, you know, today it is not uncommon for people to bash the church, to critique the church unfairly often. And especially, you know, churches that are perhaps more influential or bigger. And so there are some things that I want to share with you.

And I want to hear your guys' thoughts on, man, some things that people, say that basically object, especially like mega church myths. So I just want to point something out that I would verbally highlight for people. So like one thing that this shows is you cannot generalize about churches. Yeah, it's good. Like there were five ones that had rebuke and there was two that Jesus was like, you're doing awesome. So sometimes people will say like the church is corrupt.

I'm like, well, which one? Because there's some that are awesome and there are some that are. So I just, yes, there are some great churches out there. So what is, yeah, he talks about this church, like you have little power. And I think some people might look at a church like Lake Point and be like, well, that's other churches, but that's not us. But no, man, like in comparison to the size of the mission that we've been given,

make disciples of all nations, there's seven million people in DFW. If there's 25,000 people at Lake Point, we are minuscule. Minuscule. So make a church myths. In the words of Pastor Job and Martin, we are not a mega church. We live in a mega lost city. That's right. So myth number one, people will say this often.

Hey, you know, they'll look at things like are things that Lake Point is doing as a church. And they'll say things like, hey, New Testament churches were actually house churches, not what you guys are doing. That large churches are unbiblical. You want to go first. You know, you go. You know, you go. I'll go first of me. We'll sandwich.

I'm ready. So first of all I would say is, we hear this all. time, we should be more like the New Testament Church. Well, again, I'm like, which one? You want to be like New Testament Church? You want to be like the one where the guy was sleeping with his mother-in-law and people were getting drunk at the Lord's Supper? Do you want to be like that New Testament church? Like sometimes people are rose-colored glasses at the New Testament church. That's right. That's right. Good clarification. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which New Testament church. But I would say this. So there's house churches. Roman 16 talks about house churches. There are a megat

church in the New Testament. In Acts 2, the church is 3,000 people. In Acts 5, the church is 5,000 people. I will say this because I'll get this sometimes. Some people will be like, well, no, no, no, Josh, that wasn't a church in Acts 2 and 5. That was just everybody was in town for Passover and then, or for Pentecost, and then they went home. Bible scholars point this out, when Paul comes back in Acts 21 for the Jerusalem Council, James says about the church in Jerusalem, I'm going to read it to you. He says to Paul, you see how many thousands there are among these Jews. who have believed referring to the Christians there in Jerusalem, the church there in Jerusalem.

So even like, I think it was like, I don't remember, it was over a decade later, the church there is still apparently thousands of people. So it's simply untrue that there are no large churches in the New Testament. There are. Can I want to add, man, a couple of things even about the commendations that Jesus gives to the churches in Revelation. What he didn't say to the church in Philadelphia, as I understand it, is that they were a perfect church. Right? There's no such thing as a perfect church.

There are imperfect people in every church. What he said is they were faithful and they were true to his name. And if there is a perfect church, don't join it. But where that's important is what he says about the small church and the big church, what we know from that passage is the grading curve for God. on giving affirmation is, did you keep my word and were you on mission? So what God wants from big churches and small churches is to keep the word and to be on mission. That's what he affirmed in this small church.

Amen. So anyway. So yeah, what Jesus cares about, to Tim's point, is church health? Yes. There are large healthy churches and large unhealthy churches. There are small healthy churches and there are small unhealthy churches. Yeah, but big church is actually just celebrity. personality cults.

That's what I've been told before. Yeah. So I'll say a couple things here. It's true, right? Are you, are you a TikTok? By the way. Somebody's wondering like, what's going on over there? This is not me.

This is me. This is me voicing what a lot of people say. Yeah, let me just say, this is Carlos with like 900,000 YouTube subscribers. Yeah, I'm like that, that objection doesn't land on me from you, my friend. So a couple things I'd say is, number one, I'll gently point this out. Usually it's like, it's people who they're like, oh, the big churches are personality cults because it's all about the pastor, but small churches aren't. I'll just gently say something.

I've pastored a church of 80 people, and I've pastor to church lake point size. Very frankly, I'll just gently say this. I don't want to sound like a jerk. It's actually in smaller churches where I personally, I'm not saying this is all. always true, where I personally experienced far more, it's all about the senior pastor. I have every conversation, it's got to be with the senior pastor, I need to meet with just you. You're the only person I need. I have to talk to you, you, you need to be in my house, that kind of thing. Now, I will just point out a question that I got from, I heard this from Jobb

Martin. The question is, do you want help or do you want me? Because if you want help, we can help you. If you want me, why? Because this whole church is people full of spiritual gifts that the body of Christ works. So that's one thing I would say on the personality cult thing. The other thing I would say is the Bible says Jesus was followed by huge adoring crowds. It says that nobody listened to Jeremiah. Both of them were faithful. So well-known isn't bad and unknown isn't bad. Bad is bad. There are faithful preachers who are well-known and there are unfaithful preachers who are well-known. There are faithful preachers who are not well known and vice versa.

There it is. John the Baptist was preaching in his ministry, and at some point the Bible says that the disciples of John left him to go to Jesus. And so somebody could argue, man, his ministry became smaller, but he was faithful. So just because his ministry was small did not mean that he was being unfaithful. In fact, it was a good thing that people were looking towards Jesus in that case. You got anything else there?

Well, I mean, statistically, I just add you guys, what you just said is so on point. 94% of the churches in the United States are below 500. Wow. I say that because it's a normative experience for people's experience to be in smaller houses of faith. And what we're experiencing is very different, but not wrong. And again, I want to go back to you is like the interesting thing about that statistic is when you begin to look at all the studies by Barnah, Pew Study Group, all these people who do all the research.

on it is burnout. This is an issue with pastors right now. Burnout, people quitting the ministry, is a lot of it is happening. Remember, 94% of all the churches in America are churches under 500. There is a huge correlation in regard to burnout and people quitting ministry in being in small churches. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen in large churches, and when it does, it's very well known. But my point is, is like, small churches have tendencies to be, hey, man, I'm not going to do that. The pastor needs to do that. And, hey, man, so, you know, if you're giving a responsibility, a lot of time what happens, in my experience, of growing up in small churches is you also take the credit. You take the blame, and you take the credit.

And there's just a, I guess what I'm saying is I don't, kind of a rabbit trail, but I just come back to, man. big churches are not the problem, small churches are not the problem, health, faithfulness, you know, developing and doing the things that God calls us to do, that's the issue. Amen. Well, this is why I think you should be planting more churches. Carlos the ex-Vangelical has appeared on Librere this week. Not real. So here's what I'd say.

So people, we get this at Lake Point. Hey, you shouldn't be trying to get bigger. You should just plant churches. First of all, I have a little bit of righteous anger when somebody says that, because I'm like, have you ever heard of Lake Point? Do you know anything about this church? This Lake Point, and this is all credit to Pastor Steve, this is not me bragging on me. This is me bragging on a leader that went before me. Lake Point started a church planning network called the Strategic Launch Network. This year we will plan, I think by the end of this year, we push, is this the 80 year or the 90 year? We'll be over 80. Over 80. Over 80. So we will have planted 80 churches, 80 churches in the least church cities. in the United States of America.

I'll just say it. I don't know if there's a problem with this. We give over $2 million a year to church planting. We resource the heck out of those guys. Me, Pastor Steve, all those guys. It's like, we're coaching church planters. So it's like, hey man, it's not either or. How about it's both and?

And then I do think there's this thing where it's like people who are not leaders. It's usually people who don't understand leadership. So they don't know how to think about it. they'll kind of go, ah, you shouldn't try to get bigger, you should just plant churches. It was like, hey man, if you're a church that's so compelling and evangelistic that you can plant other churches, guess what happens? People want, they want to come to your church. What do you do? Yeah, it's like, what are you asking me to do?

You know, it's Joe B. Martin's thing. Who do you want me to un-invite? Because you're at the top of my list. You're like, do you want me to just tell everybody else? Well, y'all can just go to hell. This is as big as we're going to get. Like, you know, no. So we do both.

When you plant a new church that you don't get to demand. Oh, look at that, man. It says a church planner right there. That's a church planner calling. Yeah, that's a good being. Right. When you plant a new church is like you can't just tell everyone they have to go and it doesn't stop new people from wanting to come to your church. Yeah, it's like answering this question, people ask me all the time this particular issue.

Man, shouldn't you just take care of? of the people that you have and disciple them and go deep with them, why you're always trying to reach people. Look, mission is core. Mission is core. Like, what makes small churches and big churches stay on point is the word of God and mission. That's what he says in the passage, and it's true.

And then I would just say is like, that's like saying to someone, hey, man, what makes you really healthy, you know, exercise or a good diet? How about both? Yeah. How about both as I'm 57 and holding my little belly in over here? I'm holding my little belly in over here. But I'm saying to you it's like, man, it's not either or it's both in. It's both in.

Yeah, maybe. But I mean, you guys really are all about the numbers. All right, dude. Yep. I mean, this amount here and that number there. Yeah, we're all about the numbers. Hey, ex-Vangelical, Carlos. That doesn't exist.

I'm sure there's someone. I mean, maybe. Actually, I'm sure. Somebody says you're all about the numbers. I'm always like, yep, we literally got a whole book of the Bible called numbers. Yeah, we're all in. And if you, dude, I mean, look at the New Testament. There's a lot of numbers in New Testament.

Like, apparently they were counting. They knew, they knew after the day of Pentecost, somebody sat down and counted and they went, oh, 3,000 people just got saved. And then in Acts 5, somebody apparently literally counted and went, actually we just jumped for 3,000 and 5,000. You get this, it's everywhere. All in New Testament. So what I would say is every church should be about the numbers

because the numbers represent people and as people that matter to God. Last thing I'll say here is yes, we absolutely obsess. Tim knows we are data-driven people. It's my love language is a good spreadsheet. We obsess over the numbers. And what I would say is when somebody gives to Lake Point, I think they're probably really thankful.

We got a CFO up there that is obsessing over how to squeeze the maximum amount of eternal. or return on investment out of every dollar they give. So yeah, man, like, I'll want to be a part of a church is all about those numbers. I have nothing else to add, except Jesus told a parable in Luke 15 about lost things, and he sets the parable up by saying, man, there's a hundred sheep.

Did he count them? He counted them, actually, Carlos, and one left. And it was worth going after. The only reason he tells that parable is, man, like, because he counted, and he's trying to say everyone matters. So everyone matters, so you count. Okay. Yeah, but he mentioned CFO.

He mentioned CFO. So, you know, like Pastor Tim, big churches really, they're all about, like, you know, wasting money, right? Like just big waste of money. Yeah. Yeah, no. What I would say is there's this whole idea of like,

again, I can't speak for every church, but what the people that we hang with and what I see is, man, is they're actually more efficient in regard to the way they go about things than less efficient. So, again, I don't want to make that about big church or small church, but what I'm saying is, man, there's an economy of scale on a lot of things that happen with big church in regard to how much it even, I mean, again, there's all these things that are out there that, again, people want to geek out on, but there's even these factors on how much money

that it takes for a church to reach one person. And so in general, what all the statistics say is, the more larger the church, the more efficient they are at actually reaching and equipping and discipling people. In general, that is a thousand percent true. And I know Tim's led it large churches and Tim's let small churches. I've pastor a church of 80 people. I've pastor a church this size. I'll just, here I'll read you some stats as far as like, so Tim mentioned it, economy of scale. The other thing is for the business nerds that are listening, they'll understand this, cost per use. I'll just give a quick shout out to the, that's the beauty of the multi-site model is we've got, we've got eight, is it eight campuses right now?

Yeah, eight campuses. Soon to be nine, actually soon to be ten. When we're going to get ten? Come on, Bucky's campus and Sunnyvale. One more. Sunnyvale. And Sunnyvale. So I want people to think about this. The reason, so we hear a considerably lower percent of the budget of salaries.

And by the way, that's not, you know, paying pastors is biblical. So that's not wrong. But I'm just saying if you want to talk efficiency, lower percent of the budget on salaries, way lower percent of the budget at Lake Point goes to senior pastor. Some people are like, they talk about that. Like, you cannot imagine the lower percentage that goes senior pastor more than double. Lake Point gives more than double. gives more than double the percent of its budget to missions than my church could when I was

pastor an 80 person church. I think we're usually between like 15 and 20 percent to missions. 17 and a half percent this year? Yeah. I mean, so aggressive and then way less than half of the percentage of the budget that goes to our mortgage at Lake Point, then we're, you know, I'll just I'll give a little shout out here. This is kind of fun. in the last six years at Lake Point, that's the only visibility I have. Attendance has increased $10,000, and the debt is down $12 million.

So it's like, dude, there's just some amazing things, the efficiency with which resources are handled. We call it eternal ROI, eternal return on investment. I would just say, man, actually the data says the exact opposite as far as, quote, unquote, large churches are waste of money. Well, Carlos, you should think about, you know, like joining a large church.

Which one? I'm thinking Lake Point, buddy. Well, you guys make very compelling arguments, which has convinced me that big churches are way better than small churches. No, no, no, stop it. Okay. Tell me more about that. So here's what I would just say is, again, you have in the New Testament, you have a wonderful, faithful, house church that is commended by God in Acts 16 and you have a wonderful faithful megachurch

that is commanded by God in Acts 5. So here's the big idea for everybody. Big is not bad and small is not bad. Bad is bad. There are big, bad churches and there are big good churches. There are bad small churches and good small churches. Why? Because big is not bad and small is not bad. Bad is bad. I read this, this is an old sentence here. Somebody said, God has used the mega church to reach Korea and the house church to reach China. We should hold models loosely and Jesus closely.

Love it. You know, that's a little bit of my story. Just, you know, my dad was a pastor, as you know. He never pastored a church. I think the largest church he ever pastored was 125 people. I love the small church. I grew up in a small church. A lot of my experience over the last 20 years

has been in larger churches. And it's been a paradox for my life. I love both of them. And they're both great when the people are on mission, the words being preached, right? And people are doing what God's called us to do. So I just, it's not about small or being. It's about healthy.

Amen. My pat ball. I'm going to give a shout-h. I'm going to be in churches we can just because after that conversation. We convert it Carlos. I'm amazing. That's awesome. I'm a headball, Jerry Howerton,

who's a Southern Baptist pastor in, Missouri, Kentucky, I think Tennessee one time, Michigan, a bunch of different places. And same thing. I think the largest church he ever pastored may have been, I think, three to 400 somewhere around there. But wonderful, man. Wonderful experiences in those churches. Sweet people.

I feel like I've, you know, as we talk about this, I've had the privilege of seeing both you, Josh, and you, Tim, leading your families. Not just, obviously, you guys have a passion for the church, a heart for the church. But you guys do a really good job parenting and raising and leading your family to also love the church. When I was in college, I met a lot of friends that were either PKs, pastor's kids, or missionary kids. And a lot of them had some rough experiences for this or that reason. That's not true for everybody, obviously. But can you guys speak it a little bit into how do you disciple your family to have that same love for the bride of Christ?

You want to go first? You go first. This is a big deal. I think if you're a parent, a huge part of your child's faith is raising them to love the bride of Christ, the church. Let me give a how not to do it. So I'll just say this. A lot of parents accidentally raise their kids to hate the church. And here's all you got to do. All you got to do is be the family that talks.

about the church and the pastor negatively when you get home. If you want your kids to grow up, hate the church, and then leave the church, and then because they left the church, they leave their faith, that's all you got to do. Just get home and be the family that does the church gossip when you get home. That's a great way to do it. So I'll say that. A couple things that me and Jana do. Right now, we're blessed.

Our kids are church rats right now. Like with all our kids, God bless Jana. All three kids are at all four services because they want. want to be right now. And we work hard to make that happen. I'll just point that out, especially for the wives, you know, listen to shout out, because they're the ones that are a lot of times getting, getting all the kids. Like Jana, the energy is worth it to Jana. Jana's going, worth my time and hassle because my kids want to be at church for four services. Her mentality is, you're darn right. Her mentality is you're darn right. I'm going to put that energy in.

A couple of things we do as a family is, one, somebody may not love this language, but this is the language we use. Number one, we talk often about we find ways to do ministry with the kids and incorporate them in ministry. Tim has seen at my rooted group, that our rooted group that Tim led up that was hosted at my house, the kids are the door graders. And we plan that before the rest of the life group gets there. Hudson, your job is the front door.

So Hudson dresses up as Spider-Man. It's amazing. And Spider-Man is there to greet everybody as they come in. He knows it's his job. And then the girls help get the house ready. And then they help us love everybody on their way in. And then when we're done, everybody leaves. We huddle up with the kids and they know we're going to do it.

And we tell stories about awesome things that happened that night at Life Group. And then we say this language like, man, you know, we'll tell a great story. and we'll use this language, man, the Church of Jesus Christ is the best family business in the world. That's the gold job. It's the best family business in the world. So they know we're in this thing together. Two and the others are quick. I'll be quicker here.

When we're at church, we want it to be awesome. So when we're at church, yep, you want to have chocolate donut? Yep, absolutely. As many snacks as they want, if they want to get a hot dog at the Saturday services, the answer is always. always yes. Because honestly, dude, if they grow up and their whole life is being at church was awesome. Well, there's not much to deconstruct because you're bitter.

I don't have anything to deconstruct. You don't deconstruct getting suckers at church when you're, you know, it's like, it was awesome. The last thing I'd say for parents is whoever tells the best stories wins. Yes. So they're going to be watching stories on TV, TikTok, wherever. What Jan and I, like, around the dinner table, we're constantly telling stories of,

let me show you this picture of this dad that baptized. He got baptized, and then he turned around and baptized his two daughters at the 11 o'clock, and I'm telling it with tears in my face. Yeah, yeah, actually, we have a photo of that. Do you really? Yeah, well, we, it's funny, I think. Do you seriously?

You get the. Yeah, yeah. We got it over here. There you go. Okay, literally. Yeah. I showed, so I took that best right, I posted that picture. I literally took that picture right before I was getting ready to walk out.

And that day at lunch, I'm showing that picture to the girls. I was like, with tears in my eyes, I'm going, guys, that's amazing. That dad got baptized. It's amazing. And then he turned around and he baptized his daughters. And they're seeing me, my emotion. And so you know, your kids get excited about what mom and dad get excited now. So they're seeing me like, this is amazing.

And then that's when we're telling the best stories. So we're telling the best stories wins. Yeah, that was on my list. And man, that's been amazing, you know, to be able to tell stories of life change. So when I'm leaving the house or when I come back, just making sure my kids hear it, you know, all the time of what I'm doing and why it matters and what they're doing. A shout out to my wife and every spouse who makes sure they get there because a lot of times, you know, we're leaving early and getting back late. But, you know, I think this is what I would say. and I'm not sure this is just about pastors. I want to say in regard to how to help your kids love church

is you mentioned the negative thing and the positive thing. It's incredibly important. One of the things that I think has been really helpful to my kids, and we haven't done this perfect, but praise the Lord, Levi and Zoe both walk with the Lord, and I'm very thankful for that. Shout out, Zoe is one of our favorite worship leaders at Lake Point. that the thing that I think has helped them engage in church wherever we are and love church

is that we never talk about church in our home like it's a job. So it's very normal and natural for them to wake up and see my wife reading the Bible. It's very normal and natural for them to hear us worship in our home and to pray. Look, you know, we're not having kumbaya revival moments at the Smith House every night. That's not what I'm saying. I am saying that there is a level of authenticity that makes church not feel like it's a performance that your kids are watching, that, man, if you have that, that all of a sudden speaks to, it's just real.

We put up a sign in our yard. You guys know how this works, man. We'll try and get our neighbors to come who don't come. these are all real parts of us just like, man, inviting our kids into the Christian life, not the professional church life, but you invite them into the Christian life, and then, man, they show up one day, and it is a God encounters them, and it's a real thing. So it's a normal thing in my world every Sunday night or every Monday night to go, hey, Levi, tell me what you heard from Pastor Josh's message this week and us talk about it.

So I just say, man, just like normalize Christianity in your home, and that really does go a long way of church not having to be something that it was never intended to be. And so your faith in your life, in your home, and your spouse's faith day in day out, will validate your challenge to your kids to walk with the Lord. And it doesn't mean you have to be perfect. but even in that when you mess up, I'm sure my kids would love to hear me, you know, preach a message on forgiveness. It's even better when I mess up and I have to ask them to forgive me. And I'm just saying to you there has to be a congruency for that faith to take root and grow. That's good. Just past, you know, showing up on the weekend and it being a job.

Yeah. Amen. I see you guys model that really well. One thing that I'm feeling more and more, I feel that responsibility as a husband, as a father, for me to leave. the way and everything that you guys are saying. So, you know, and kind of take ownership of the spiritual temperature of my house. So, man, I think that's very encouraging. And speaking of families and kids, man, I would love to talk about Mr. Beast.

As we land this plane. Let's land it. It's time to debate. Mr. Beast. I'm kidding. Okay. So. All right.

For real. But for people that don't know, Mr. Beast is now the most subscribed channel, YouTuber, you know, channel on YouTube. He has over 380 million subscribers, which, by the way, like, that is an insane, insane number, 380 million subscribers. Larger than the population of the United States. Literally, that's right. And he's on his way.

He says he wants to hit a billion subscribers, which is, again, I think he, and he's, this is a 26-year-old YouTuber. He made this deal with Amazon Prime to basically create his own show called Beast Games. we were talking about it. You hate it. I liked it. Let's discuss it. All right. So Carlos and I have not talked about this. Carlos, actually, I'd never heard of Mr. Bees. Carlos sent me, what was name of that podcast? We interview CEO. Diary of the CEO. Yeah. And it was a leadership podcast. I like leadership podcast. That's my first exposure. So somebody told me, hey man, you should try watching the Beast games with your kids. It's on Amazon Prime. It's like a game show for those who listen, who are listening. And it is, you're never bored. I'll just say that. You're never bored. Which, by the way, is the most watched game show that's unscripted in history. That one already. Well, I can see why. They gave away $10 million.

That's right. You're never bored. Yeah, $10 million. It was stupid. Whatever you have in your head. Spoiler alert, yeah. Yeah, that actually is a spoiler. It's okay. We can actually bleep it if you are. Whatever you have in your head. It's worth watching an episode. Okay.

So what somebody told me is, hey, man, this is a, this is a, this is a, a, this is a, clean thing to watch with your kids. And in one sense, they were right. You know, obviously, no nudity, no sex, you know, no, you know, very minimal language, like hell, like stuff like that every now. But here's what, so when we're with our kids, what we tell them is, I'm trying to train them. TV shows are sermons, which means you got to have your lie detector on. They know that's our language. TV shows our sermons, so you got to have your light detector on. So we're watching this. Here's why I think, I thought it was super dark. And here's why I say that. The whole show is essentially him putting the contestants in moral quandaries,

tempting them to sacrifice one of two things for money, their character or relationships with people they love. That's the whole show. So, okay, so like, I'm not joking. Go back and watch that show through that lens. That's the show. So in one sense, it was clean, no nudity, no language. But what I was teaching the girls was like, hey, so Jesus said,

watch out for this thing called mammon worship, where you start treating money like a God. And so actually it was a great discipleship thing for me. I was going, hey girls, so there's two things money's never worth. Money is never worth your character and money's never worth a relationship. So we got a chance to talk about, man, Christians love people and use money. And man and worshipers, they love money and use people. And little things like that, but honestly, dude, I thought it was super dark because every episode was people being forced to a point of a heavy moral dissoning.

either about their character or a relationship. Yeah. And then the choice of money over the character relationships being massively celebrated. Yeah. Well, it's for sure, I mean, the whole show, like you said, it's people using people to get money. At the end of the day, that's kind of the game. Like, if you want to, you want to make, you know, earn money or whatever. It is interesting. Yeah, that's a good perspective. It's also interesting to see, it exposes the human hearts. sinful desires again for more money. Because obviously some people get money and then they're like, well, you could get like

10 times what you just got. What you have is a lot. And the envy and also the discontent. So even when like you got something and I did it and I'm like, wait, but we're in the same team. So like I now deserve what you got and that's really mean of you not to, you know. And so it's really interesting. People are like crying all the time.

Oh, yeah. You know, it's like this is my life. It's going to turn me. You know, and so it's interesting. So anyway, that's my pitch. I thought it was pretty dark. Yeah. I did.

It was entertaining. It was fun, yeah. I'm feeling like I'm probably just going to stay with the final four this week. That could also be characterizes of the beast games. Did you find it interesting, though, that there's a lot of also like Jesus talk and God talk and prayer talk? Honestly, it really, I will say, in one sense, that was encouraging to me because it was like, is a lot of like Gen Z, I was actually taken aback by how much like overtly Christian impulses. Kind of came out of the bill.

Tons of prayer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots of prayer. Actually, do you know the dude that, spoiler alert, if you're watching, you should pause this. The dude that won is a believer. I did not. No, but I'm really happy he did. The dude that won from California.

And by the way, that's the guy I was rooting for. do the one from California. He had a son with a severe medical condition. And he essentially went, I got to do this to try to find a cure for my son's incurable medical condition. And so this guy won. And his character remained high throughout the thing.

He wins. The reason I know that is in, I watched, so after we watch, the kids were like, pull up some videos about the YouTube shorts. And he started talking about tithing. Interesting. Oh, wow.

And so it's like, this guy, high character. He's a dad laid it all in the line for his son. And he's talking about tithing. I'm like, that guy is a Jesus guy. I was rooting for him. It's interesting, though, generally speaking, not always, but generally speaking, I was surprised to see that people with integrity. And, you know, some of them did not compromise their values.

They were like, well, you know, I'm not going to do that for this money. I'm just going to be who I am, whatever happens. At some point, they really moved on. Like even the last competitors, most of them, not all of them, but most of them were people that said, I'm not going to. I'm not going to compromise. Yeah, it's interesting. Correct.

I'll give one last thing. So for some people who are watching, actually, if you didn't watch Beast games, what I'm about to say won't make sense. So there was one guy on the show, guy with a big long beard that was like, I'm going to pray and ask God what five people I should choose. That actually was a good discipleship spot with the girls because, you know, they're young. And they were kind of like going, this feels wrong. This feels weird to me, dad, but he's a Christian. So what should we think? They're asking me during the show.

And it was a good chance for me to talk about how actually sometimes people will accidentally or intentionally use a religion to manipulate people. And that actually that's what Jesus is referring to or what God's referring to when he gives the command, you shall not use my name in vain. Don't stick my name on stuff this not from me. In other words, don't tell people,

God told me to choose you five people. When God did not tell you that, bro. And so actually, I was, hey, girls, you're right. This is wrong. And you should feel icky about this. So there was good discipleship combos. There's some interesting things there. It was a little bit of also a mixture of, you know, I'm a manifest this money.

And, you know, God brought me here. It's just all these mixtures of. And so it's interesting to see for sure. So yes, recommend it. No, be careful. Be an eye out. You know, nothing wrong with it. But, you know, walk in with your lie detectors on.

If you're watching with your kids, I just use those moments as discipleship moments. Like pause the show for a second and be like, what do you all think about that? And then teach them, hey man, money is not worth your character and money's not worth a relationship, stuff like that.

Good. Pastor Tim, would you pray for us? I'd be glad to. Lord, we bless you. We thank you, God, for just thank you for this church that we talked about today. God, just how they were faithful and true to your name. And we pray that we would be the same.

pray that every open door that you give to us, God, grant grace for us to walk into it and be faithful. And God, let your word multiply in our hearts in such a way that we would be fruit-bearing and full of the Holy Spirit. Grant that to us in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thanks for joining us. For more biblical teaching and worship, join us for our Lake Point Church online live weekend services on Saturdays and Sundays. Also, if this podcast was helpful to you, would you be sure? to rate, review, and share this podcast to help get the word out. For more information about all the digital resources of Lake Point, visit lakepoint.church slash live free.