Live Free with Josh Howerton - “The church hurt me! What now?” | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

Have you ever felt disillusioned by the people of God, even when you still believe in God Himself?   Pastor Josh Howerton, Jana Howerton, Carlos Erazo, and Pamela Baltazar dive into a candid, thoughtful conversation around church hurt—what it is, where it stems from, and why it feels so prevalent today. From the dangers of idolizing leaders to the challenges of misunderstood mental health trends, they unpack how cultural shifts may be influencing our expectations of the church. Pamela shares heartfelt insight into honoring imperfect leadership, while Pastor Josh draws from both Scripture and personal experience to offer a healing perspective. This dialogue doesn’t shy away from hard truths but is anchored in grace, wisdom, and hope for reconciliation.   How do we move forward when we’ve been wounded by the very place meant to be a spiritual refuge? This conversation offers a place to begin.   👍 Like, Comment, & Subscribe for more life-changing podcasts! 🔔 Turn on notifications so you never miss an update!    📝 SHOW NOTES Subscribe now to receive the show notes directly in your inbox with each new episode. These notes are filled with key insights and scripture to help you reflect and grow deeper in your faith – https://lakepointe.church/shownotes 👇 DON’T MISS OUT! Looking for strong connections and lasting friendships? Our Life Groups are where you can build real, honest relationships and grow together. Join a Life Group today – https://lakepointe.church/groups/     ⛪ ABOUT LAKEPOINTE CHURCH:We believe that Lakepointe is a movement for all people to Know God, Find Freedom, Discover their Calling, and Make a Difference. With 6 DFW locations and programs for all ages, there's something for everyone. 🤝 Support this ministry and help us reach more people with the Gospel: https://lakepointe.church/give   STAY CONNECTED:🌐 Website: https://lakepointe.church/👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lpconnect/📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lpconnect 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lakepointechurch      🎧 LISTEN ON THE GO! ▶️ Live Free on Spotify / https://open.spotify.com/show/353ryGdZNlebaiqkCcy3Yc 

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the Word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ.

Thanks for tuning in. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free Podcast. My name is Carlos Rosso, and I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton. And Ms. Janice Howerton and Miss Pamela, the preacher who crushed teaching this weekend. So proud of you.

The Hispanic, what? The Hispanic Hammer. The Hispanic Hammer. Hispanic what? That sounds like an immigration attorney name or something like that. Oh my goodness. It does seem like something you'd see on your way into Dallas. Yes.

It does. It's hilarious. An immigration attorney. But I don't do that. I don't do that. Pamela, why are you so funny? I can just see it in billboards in the street.

Yes. Spanish hammer. You follow this number. I'll get you a green card in one month. Just kidding. Just kidding. Yoking, yoking. Oh, man.

This is already my favorite podcast you've done in weeks. I got Jana here. We got immigration attorney jokes. This is amazing. This is already a really good episode. It's going to be more fun. We are going to address new pope. New pope.

That's right. Church hurt, mothering. And so I'm here to learn today. But before, what do they do on social media? I need you guys to help me out today because I say this all the time. You got to subscribe. Subscribe. That's right.

Like. Follow. Share. Share. By the way, people are doing it and do the podcast. This seems growing. It's really exciting. It's like we have a little family here.

We launched the show notes like some episodes ago and a very strong response as well. So now, you know, any verses that I shared, any highlights, people can just download the show notes. And they can find them at lake point. That church slash show notes. And there's more. Pamela, you know what's more? No. When people download the show notes, we select 10.

winners for special LP merch. Oh, wow. And so, Pamela, if you won a new hoodie with Lake Point and Lake Point in Spanish, I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. I got you. I got them all, but I'll do it anyway.

And so what I love about the show notes thing is we're starting to have more people that we're hearing about who they'll listen to the sermon. They'll listen to this podcast as a deeper dive. Then they're grabbing the show notes and using them for like their life group. That's right. So it's like they're meeting at coffee shots before going to work, especially a bunch of guys. And it's like that's their life group.

Yes. It's been great. We've got to start giving shoutouts to life groups. Yeah, tell us when you're doing it. We'll give shoutouts. Let us know in the comment section below. That's great. Wait, Pamela, can I ask?

What's it like when you teach in English? Like what's how you feel about it? What's it like? It's awful. Are people? No, is it really? I mean, no, no. I mean, for me, it's, I don't know about you.

Carlos, you're more bilingual, way more than me. But like, I don't know what that means. I can never relax. You know, like I never get to the point that I'm comfortable or I can be like spontaneous because I'm always very self-conscious of my English. When did you learn English? In Mexico, we at school. We went to a private school and they had a very good English program.

And then since our church, Lake Point went, you know, missionary trips. We always practiced with the Americans that went there to Mexico. Wait, was that your first exposure to Lake Point? Are people coming on Mission Trip? I've never heard this story. I was the host of the missionary trips of Lake Point. I was in charge of them, like, you know, driving them to places and being with them and made their schedules and all of that. At Amor Viviente at the Mexico campus?

Yeah. Unbelievable. I've never heard this before. Yeah. That's how I met Lake Point, like John, like all of them. Like, I met them there. We've got to take more mistress. I know.

That's amazing. But, I mean, of course, I love it. I enjoy it. But it's not like I can just relax and be myself. I'm still thinking like in two languages all the time. I don't know about you. Dude. Let me just say.

You definitely seem more relaxed than you feel because it is very natural. That's what I was going to say. You are you up there. You are. It looks very natural. I pretend very well. No, I'm just kidding. It does not seem like you're, you know, like you struggle with it at all.

Everyone should shout out Pamela's amazing teaching in all the comment sections, all the likes, all the things. You're right of comments right now. There it is right now. We're going to set a comment record right here. That's right. That's awesome. All right, man. Well, let's, let's say that in.

What are we doing first? We're doing Pope first. We're doing Pope first. You tell me, man. I'll talk about Pope. What are you going to talk about? Actually, you know what? Because of the retention of the attention of the video, we're going to wait.

I'm going to like, actually. I like it. Is that too mean? No. Okay, great. Let's do that. Hey, let's talk about church heard. It seems to me, so, but Malah, first of all, well done this weekend.

So good. Yeah, thank you. It seems to me that church heard, is it more of a thing in the last 10, 15 years or has it always been? and it's because of social media that, you know, more people are talking about it. Let's start there. This may be part of your question. It may not. Can I ask you the question that he always asked me?

Was there anything that, like, you wanted to get into the message that didn't make it in? Yeah, a lot of stuff. I don't want to do another sermon. But, like, talking about that subject, I think it has a lot to do with social media, but also a lot to do with the mental health, mental health movement.

I think that has infiltrated the church. And I didn't want to dive in too much into that because it's a whole rabbit hole. But like I think we're too aware of our feelings all the time. Like we're thinking of the way, how do I feel about this? Do I like this? Am I comfortable? And honestly, all these movements started to, you know,

acknowledge our feelings, but to work through them and overcome our issues. But now it has become more about just talking about them and taking them as the authority of our lives. So we now take the approach, like, if this makes me uncomfortable, if this situation or if this person makes me uncomfortable, then I'm going to remove them from my life because, you know, for my mental health's sake.

So I think that has happened in the church. Like, I didn't like this change. I didn't like the way this was addressed. Or I didn't like the way they talked to me or whatever. Then I'm going to remove myself from that situation. And that has, it's very harmful for the church because instead of being action oriented, like focused on our goal, our mission as a church, we are state oriented, just focus on how everybody feels and how everybody is at every single moment. So I think

those things are the major components of why it has become more of a trend, because for me it's pretty new. Like it hasn't been forever. And we have used like these big terms, like spiritual abuse and narcissism, like, do we really know what we're talking about? Like those are big words. Those are like, you know, like health or mental health, like really illnesses, you know, and we use them very lightly. So, I don't know. It's really interesting you say that. So like, one, I totally agree. Now, first of all, obviously what none of us are saying is that there's no such thing as abuse, that nobody ever experiences that, that there's not a such thing as a narcissist. All the caveats, that's not what we're saying. But it's funny because we didn't plan on talking about

this. So I'm going to riff like off the cuff. weekend. But I do think I read an article, I think it was in, it was in the book, The Coddling of the American Mind, Jonathan Haidt. It was very, very good. Great book, by the line. Great book. And he talked about, like, with the term, with psychological terms, he talked about what's happening in our culture. He called it concept creep. And he used the example of like, hey, man, this word 20 years ago, it referred to this very specific set of things. And then over the last 20 years, the concept has creeped. And now we're loading more and more things.

Specifically, he was talking about the term abuse. And it's like, man, 20 or 30 years ago, that referred to like active, intentional exploitation, physical harm. Like, you know, that kind of thing. And then now it's like, man, somebody told me that I was living in sin and it made me feel embarrassed and spiritual abuse. Yeah. And that, man, a little bit of what happens. right now in our culture is the most, one of the more common forms of abuse is abuse of the word abuse.

Yes. So let's be real careful about, just because somebody made me feel a negative emotion doesn't mean that what they did was wrong. Yeah. And for the church, like, it was, I heard an example. Like, if you're in a, how you call it, a huddle before the football game, like, you know, the coach is giving instructions. We're going to do this.

This is our strategy. You're going to tackle this guy. But they're not like, hey, how do you feel? about that. I saw you know you were hit too hard. Like, how do you feel? Do you feel like going to hit this guy or cover this guy? And I think we're doing that. Yeah, exactly. And I think, like, we're doing this in the church. Like, how do you feel about this? Do you agree with this change? Do you think, do you agree with this decision? Like, oh, we need time to process. Like, we have a mission. And that's the dangerous thing that is deviating our attention from our goal, our mission,

the purpose of the church, because we're just focusing on ourselves. We actually have become weaker instead of stronger, you know, because of the mental health movement. Man, it is like the, it is interesting. Like, this is a whole side note, but it's like, somebody said that the greatest idol of 21st century America is the idol of self. And if you notice, like, all our words are self, it's self-care and, you know, self-improvement. We take selfies, not U.S. You know, it's like all the things.

And what can happen is people get, it's like reverse discipleship where their entire focus in every situation, the question they're asking is how does that make me feel? And what's happening is now my entire life is about self. It's like, man, actually discipleship is the ability to deny yourself, to exercise self-control, to practice a radical self-giving. And you accidentally, it'll invert it. Yeah, because that's not comfortable. That's not nice. We don't like it. So we avoid it.

So another thing that I didn't include in the message because I had to do a lot of explaining and didn't have time. It's how we approach the authority, like the pastors and the leadership of the church because they're not perfect. They're going to have weaknesses or struggles or whatever. I'm not talking about sin or things like that that shouldn't be tolerated. but like they're not perfect and we should have an attitude of honor and it made me seen of the story of Genesis 9 Noah's sons when he was he was drunk and he was like you know

they're sleeping and he was naked one of his sons just saw him and then went outside and told everybody and told his brother's like hey my father is naked and make fun of them of him and then the other two sons like didn't want to see his nakedness and they you know walked backwards and cover his nakedness because they wanted to honor him. And I think as a church, we have failed in doing so. Like, if they have like shortcomings, so they didn't do it like perfectly or whatever. Like, we should have that honoring attitude towards them. And I know this has been abused because this has been used to cover up sin or real abuse.

But like most of the times, there are minor things that we can be honoring and cover our authorities' weaknesses. But I think we have lost that sense. of honoring our authorities in the church. Really good, Pamela. To your point, Pamela, I think, you know, obviously, so church is made up of imperfect people. And obviously, scripture calls us to love the church, but it does not say that we should idolize the church.

And there's a difference when you love the church versus when you idolize the church. When you idolize a church, you put somebody in the position of God. And so then you see like your pastors or the leadership of the church and you're like, they should be perfect to me. And so when they disappoint me, then you demonize them. So what you idolize, you demonize them. And so I think, again, just the reality of like, hey, like broken people will disappoint you. And when that happens, man, everybody's human.

There's grace. There's forgiveness. But again, when that happens, you know, now you have realistic expectations of like, man, you know, there's grace. And that's okay. Yeah. In my servant I said, we get disappointed in the church because we expect too much from it. But we get disappointed in God because we expect too little. like we expect too much from the church that only God can do.

The church is not going to give us hope, salvation, like all of these things, healing. Like that comes from God, but we put too much expectations, unrealistic expectations on the church, that we get disappointed constantly. But then with God, we think this is going to make me happy. This is what I need. And that's why we feel disappointed in God because he doesn't give us what we want. But his thoughts and his plans for us are way bigger. and we expect too little from him.

Godly. Pamela, that's really good. I know. It's the Holy Spirit that revealed it. Yeah, that's what. There's an old quote. It was by St. Augustine, third century, I think third or fourth century, theologian. He said, and it's got like a kind of a bad word in it, but this is what he said.

He said, the church is a whore, but she is my mother. The church is a whore, but she is my mother. And I think that's honestly helpful. You look throughout church history, and it's to your point, Pamela. The church is made up of a bunch of sinners. And so, guess, hey, surprise, sin or sin. And, you know, it's really interesting because sometimes, like, in the lobby, people will grab me in and they'll be like, like, they're brand new.

They've been at Lake Point, like, four days. This is the perfect church. And I'm like, oh, yeah, just give me half of a sermon. You know, I'm going to disappoint you. But what people will say is, like, like, man, this just feels like the New Testament Church. I want to go back to the New Testament Church. And I think people forget what the New Testament Church was like.

Don't let me start on that. Yeah. Because it's like, hey, man, which New Testament Church? Yeah. The one where they were all suing each other, the one where they were getting drunk on Lord Supper wine. The one where the guy was sleeping with his mother-in-law, like, which New Testament church do you talk?

You know, it's always been like this, big dysfunctional family. There has always been seen because there has always been humans in the church. So as long as they're human in the church, there's going to be sin and we're not going to be perfect. And I think a lot of times when people talk about church hurt and they'll call it church hurt. But really, it's like that is super vague because you have to ask yourself like, well, what happened? Was there something specific that happened? Was it with a specific person? And so they want to just label it as church hurt in general.

But really, you got hurt by one or two people. And it wasn't the entirety of the church. And so I think it's like learning to see that and like not allow your feelings to lie to you because your feelings will lie to you. And they will be amplified and blown up. And so I think just taking a second, like thinking about what truly happened and working through that. That's really wise. Can I jump? So Jana knows this.

There was like a, I think it was like 2014 where I did counseling for a little while. and we'll save some of that. Yeah. But I was in there. And honestly, like, one thing that I think people sometimes don't realize is pastors get hurt by churches a lot. Yeah. I'm married to a pastor. Yeah.

You know, you should see my inbox. Sheep bite. And so I was going to counseling. I had honestly grown a little jaded and a little. bitter. And the counselor I was at, he had something was going on. I said, man, like, I'm just frustrated with the church. The church. And I said it, like, man, the church just really hurt me. And he was a really wise man. And he said, hey, Josh, I want you to, would you use it right down on that sheet of paper the people who hurt you? And I wrote down six names. I could probably

still recount the exact six names. And when I was done, I held it up. And he said, hey, man, I just want you to notice something. There's only six names on that sheet of paper, but there's over a thousand people in your church. And then he said, the church didn't hurt you. Six people in your church hurt you. And then that's where he dropped a line that I actually drop in sermons sometimes. He said to me, Josh, don't let what a few people in the church did to you keep you from what Jesus did for you. I was like, hey man, that's a different mindset. Absolutely. I also think church hurt can creep in when we don't exercise just Matthew 18. Like when someone sins against you, like you need to go to them. You need to talk to them.

And if that doesn't go well, then you take someone with you. And so I think rather than dealing with the situation and approaching it from just the heart of reconciliation, like, hey, there's something between us. I don't want it. I don't want that to be true. like I want us to be right with one another. I think it's just approaching that and approaching one another and solving it. Because Satan wants, he wants that disunity, he wants dysfunction. And I think that that's a way that it creeps in. We're just not dealing with things the way Matthew 18 would have us deal with. And obviously, when this is not talking about real cases of abuse or something, you know, this is more like what we're talking about concept creep.

You know, when you call it a church hurt, it just seems so vague that there's, It seems like you can do anything about it. But when you realize, like, it's people, it's a people hurt. It's like, oh, well, now maybe I can go to the person that hurt me, to the life group even, and tell them how I felt, and maybe we can work it out. Maybe we can do what the Bible says. And so there's a difference between, again, realizing, you know,

just using the words church hurt versus like, let me go address and do what I can and that's in my power that I can do to fix this. That's great. Man, people will say often today, man, I love Jesus, but I don't know about the church. I don't, you know, and they'll separate those things. Real quick, again, and a lot of the times it's because of quote unquote church hurt. What would you guys say to that?

I mean, I love Jesus, Josh, but the church, I'm good. I'll pass on that. So I'll say one thing that I'm actually going to kick it over to Pamela because they have to hear me talk about this all the time. Because I'll drop, I try to at least once a year get this in a message. Man, one thing that I think is really important for anybody because a lot of people who listen to Pamela's message or a listener right now, they legitimately got messed up by somebody or a leader in a church

or at least a perceived thing. And the big thing you got to remember is that Christians are not Christianity and Christians are not Christ. So some people would have happened is like, man, some Christians hurt me or a church hurt me. And so I'm walking away from Christ. I'm walking away from Christianity. Well, Christianity is not Christians. You got to make a differentiation there.

So don't walk away from your faith. Don't walk away from the church just based on a couple of those people. The analogy that I'll sometimes use on that is like, man, if you walked into a YMCA and there was a guy with a dad bod wearing, there's a pair of Jordan, somebody gave me over there, and he's wearing a pair of Jordans.

And it literally says Jordan on the shoes. And the dude, he can't make a jumper. He can't make a layup. He's dribbling off his ankles. Are you going to all of a sudden reject Michael Jordan because the guy that was bearing his name played bad? Yeah. It's the same thing when a person that's a Christian represents Christ very poorly.

Man, I'm not rejecting Christ just because somebody who bore his name as a Christian imitated him real bad. So make sure you make that distinction is the first thing. I'd say, but Pamela, why don't you speak to a man, I like Jesus, but I don't like the church. Well, you cannot separate Jesus from the church. The church is Jesus' bride. He died for his church and he will come back for his church. Like, you cannot separate it.

It's like saying, like, we would tell you, like, oh, Pastor Josh, we love you. We would like to have you over in our house and have dinner, but we kind of don't like Jana very much. So can you not bring her? Like, would you go to our house, like to have dinner? What would you say to that? I always say, man, if you love me because her, I punch you. That's how that triangle works. Yeah, exactly. And we see, example, I mentioned in the sermons, like, you know, how Jesus takes very personal when you offend his church. Like, you cannot separate. It's just, it's one, one entity. One is Jesus and his bride. So you cannot say, I like Jesus, but I don't like his bride. It's not one way or the other. They go together.

So, and I'll point this out too, because this is what's really damaging that people will do. So remember the New Testament analogy is that the church is a body and that Christ is the head of the body. All right. So like what, think about how your body works. Like if you want, like I got coffee here. If my brain thinks I want a sip of coffee, what I don't do is like my brain just sends little telepathy waves and zap the coffee into my head. No, no, that's not what happens. If my head wants coffee, then it's going to send a signal to my shoulder.

which is going to make my armwork, which is going to move my hands to close my fingers, to bring it up here so that I can put it to my lips and then in my mouth and then swallow it. So the head uses the body to do the work that's good for you. So what will happen is like, man, when somebody removes themselves from the church, you're removing yourself from all of the power of God that operates through the body part. of the church. I mean, Jan and I, this last week, we're sitting in the lobby. It was, yeah, it was last week right after baptism weekend. And it was like story after story of like miraculous. Like we sat there with a lady, shout out to Lydia, literally walked up to us

with a paralyzed half of her face, asked for prayer for supernatural healing. And in the case, it's like literal supernatural healing that happened. Well, that happened because she was in in the body, Jana prayed for her. The Holy Spirit worked through the body through her to do a supernatural work in your life. And when you remove yourself from the body, which is the church, you're removing yourself from all the ways

that Jesus wants to work in your life. That's right. And I think you can't discount spiritual warfare here and what's happening. Because Satan wants to isolate you. He wants you away from the body, just like Josh was saying. And so it's just like you have to remember

you're not fighting fighting against flesh and blood. You know, it's the principalities. And Satan, he wants to still kill and destroy. And so if he can just keep you thinking about that situation and you're not dealing with it, he's going to, because it isolates you and keeps you from health and healing. We have a video that I would love for us to react to. Trinity, can we pull that video?

And I do feel like this video in many ways represents, you know, how many people feel about it. You know, just church and people that have gone through some things. And what I want us to do, I want us to react to the video, but also after that get really practical. Like, hey, if this is something that you relate to, this is what you need to do now. And so let's figure out the video.

Sometimes the church does more judging than loving. That's why it doesn't feel safe for me sometimes. Okay. And like, if I was to come as I am, how would I be accepted? Because this is who I am, you know? Less judgment, more comfort. passion. More come as you are. I wrote that song by the grace of God because I do believe in something much bigger than me. And I call that God for me. And I've been given this gift. But I know that

like God has his hand on me. And I know that sometimes I go through things and I think they're just too intense. I can't handle them. And then he swoops it and he shows me that it's his grace that brings me through it. Okay. Who wants to go first? I don't know. All right. I got two thoughts. One, there are sometimes when you got a Phariseical legalistic church, and they don't know how to love a sinner. So that absolutely is a thing.

That's a thing in the Bible, too. Jesus. Big time. Engage with that. Big time. That's Jesus seven woes to the Pharisees. You know, you tie up heavy burdens impossible. anybody to bear. You travel over land and sea and make somebody twice as son of hell as you.

You neglect the way to your matters of the law, justice and compassion, but tie the tenth of your dilment and cumin as waste. So that's a thing. I'll say something you're like not supposed to say, but I think it needs to be said. Honestly, sometimes that's what emotionally manipulative people say who demand that everyone affirm their sin and celebrate it. So I'll just say this. Like when I was a youth pastor, you would get this all the time. Some, some boneheaded, like I'll just speak very unfiltered. Some like boneheaded idiot kid that wanted to drag all the other kids into his open rebellion against God. And then his kid was just super immature, disrespectful to all the leaders, just not good. And then the parents would walk in your office and complain, my kid feels judged. And honestly,

I'm like, well, that's because the people around him are correctly judging. that he's acting like an idiot. And he's pulling everybody else into his sin. And honestly, Mom and Dad, what he needs is for his mom and dad to make some right judgment and to help him see that what he's doing is wrong and stupid. And so I will say sometimes what happens, what you just saw is sometimes what that is, again, an emotionally manipulative person trying to make you feel guilty for having correct judgment about incorrect actions.

Anybody want to rebuke me or what? Is that too harsh? I was going to say, I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I was going to say something like that, that of course, that Jesus draws you in with love and grace, but then he confronts your sin. There has to be a moment when there's repent, what there is change. You can come as you are, but you're not supposed to stay as you are. So that kind of, to me, sounded like they don't let me be myself.

This is who I am, like she said, you know, they don't need. me be myself in the church. It's not that we don't let you. It's that you're being confronted by the things that you need to change and you don't want to. So sometimes they can use the excuse that the church hurt me. They don't let me be who I am. But Jesus loves you so much that he doesn't want to let you let you in your sin. He wants to change you and transform you and give you a new life. So there's a little bit of both. Certainly as church we can do better and we should do better to not welcome people with judgment. We should welcome them with love and grace. But then at some point they don't want to change, we're not going to accept their sin just to not offend them.

You know what I mean? Yeah, you being, you having your feelings hurt doesn't always mean that somebody in the church has done something wrong to you, right? And so, you know, I think of like, again, you will be, if you're a Christian, you should be at some point expect to be corrected, rebuked, challenged, made uncomfortable because the calling of Christ is not towards more comfort, but it's towards a cross. And so it's self-denial. It's not self-affirmation all the time.

And so I think some people might use that sometimes to just basically say, I feel bad because you corrected me with scripture. And I'm trying to justify my sin. Well, no, we love you too much to tell you the truth of what the Bible actually says. And we love you enough to say something that might actually sting a little bit, but it's actually for your own good. Yes. And that's love.

It would be very unloving and kind just to applaud. Yes, you just keep doing what you're doing, knowing that it's sending them down a path of destruction and harm. Exactly. Yeah. There was like, I don't know, it was right after I got here. There was a, and I'll just name it, like, because it's a bit of the elephant in the room, that that may have been what she was referring to. There was a person that came, that grabbed me in the lobby that was, I think, pretty

visibly and clearly, like living in same-sex relationship. and their question was, hey, essentially liked the service today, but are you going to try to change me? And my response was, absolutely. We're trying to change every single person that's here. Every single person is here because we want to be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ. That's what all of us are here for God to change us. So whenever you get somebody that's like, I don't want God to change my sin, I want to love my sin and stay in my life. in sometimes they'll do what she just said there. Now, just a little practical application because like we've all acknowledged, there are moments where it's like, man, that's,

that was not the moment for the Hispanic hammer. So here's the verse that strikes out to me is we need to ask the Holy Spirit with the people that we're in life group with or talking to. That's good, man. You need to ask Holy Spirit this one. First Thessalonians 514. Listen. As we urge you brothers and sisters, watch this. Warn those who are idle and disruptive. Encourage the disheartened. Help the weak.

Be patient with everyone. So it's like, men, you need to ask the Holy Spirit when you see, just because somebody is in sin, sometimes somebody's in front of you and they're weeping because of the wounds and damage their sin. has caused. Usually when they're right in the middle of that pain, that's not the moment

for the rebuke, because this verse says help the weak, encourage the disheartened. So you need to ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom, which type of person is standing in front of me? Is this an idle person, a disheartened person, a weak person, etc.?

Ask Holy Spirit for Wisdom, respond appropriately. That's good. And also, well, in Spanish there's a phrase, I don't know how to translate it, but is correction without relation creates rebellion. Do you know that one, Carlos? Correction without... With what?

Correction without relation produces rebellion. Yeah. I mean, you said it. Yeah, that's it. So, like, if you just want to correct... It sounded great to me. Yeah, it was awesome. If you just want to correct somebody,

but you haven't had a relationship with the person that you make them feel welcome, that you really care about them, like, that people, that person is going to rebel. It's the same with everybody, like, in a position of authority, or, like, one, you know, from, you know, brothers in Christ or whatever, you just want to correct, but you don't have the relationship

to do that. You have improved to the person that you love them and care about them and have their best interest at heart. They're not going to receive it very well. So we cannot just go correcting people if we don't have the relationship with them first. So I think that's a very good way for us to know if it's time to approach somebody about their sin or help them with that. Amen.

Very practical. Very briefly, what would you say to the person like the lady in the video of Katie Perry? who, you know, is going, wrestling through some things. And I actually got legitimately hurt. What do I do now? Well, first, I wanted to say, like, I'm sorry. Like, if you were hurt in the church, I'm really sorry. That was not supposed to happen.

God didn't want that for you. God wants you to heal, to move on, to keep trying to find the right community for you. But, I mean, don't isolate yourself. I mean, the church is not God. And God wants you to be in a good community. But first of all, I'm really sorry that you found hurt in the church instead of hope. Yeah. I think, like, as a pastor, when somebody has a lot of emotion, you want to ask a lot of questions.

Usually when somebody has a lot of emotion, they need to get something out more than they need to get something in. So if somebody's listening and not watching, I'm pointing. They need to get something out of their heart more than they need to get something out of their heart more than they need to get something. to get a new truth into their head. That's good, man. It's like you kind of, like when we're in the lobby or when we're passing a couple or whatever, when somebody has a ton of emotion,

ask a lot of questions. Oh, man. Tell me about what happened. Yeah. So how do that make you feel? And once they get the emotion out, that's when things are a little more clear is connect before you correct.

That's when they can tell, oh, this person loves me and cares about me. And that's the avenue and the conduit through which eventually like the truth that's going to set them free can enter through but don't skip the connection before you get to the correction or it usually has come backfire. Well, hey guys, one of the reasons we are intentional in creating this kind of podcast episodes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships. Having said that, what we want to do through the live free podcast is model what it looks like to be in a discipleship

group where we come together and open up the Word of God and honestly just grow together as followers of Jesus to live free in Christ. And so for this reason, we love that you're tuning in, but honestly, we don't just want you to be a passive listener. We want you to be an active participant. And so if you have not yet joined the group, whether in person or online, I want to challenge you to test drive one. And so to do that, just text the word group to 2.0. 411 or go to Lake Point. to that church slash groups because listen, you're not one podcast away,

one habit away, one decision away, one book away, one sermon away. Listen, you are one relationship away to experience freedom in Christ in community. And now, let's get back to the podcast. Now, like, just kind of speaking through some of my own experiences that, and I wouldn't say they were church hurt,

they were people hurt, that they happen within the context of church, is that, you know, sometimes you have to own your part in it. Did you play a part in it? So Romans 1218, if it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. And so is there something you need to mend? Is there something that you need to restore? Is there someone's forgiveness that you need to seek?

Because, you know, there's always two sides to a story. And so we have to examine ourselves and ask God, like, you know, show me. Is there something that I need to make right in this situation? And then, you know, obviously, forgive. Like, you want to be free of that burden. And so you may not be given the opportunity to have that conversation, but always be willing if somebody would come to you. Yes, I forgive you.

And to have that relationship, you know, it may not be the same. You may never have the relationship you once had. it might be different, but at least there is no disunity there. There is forgiveness. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say, obviously, if somebody has experienced her in the church, you will find and can find healing in the church as well.

You know, it sounds like, oh, wait, that's not what I was expecting. Well, that's because the church is the body of Christ. Yeah. And you need Christ. And it's actually harder to find healing alone. And that too. That's right. You, because an isolated Christian is an oxymoron.

and what you need is people around you that love you, that serve you, that listen to you, that pastor you. And so there it is. That's it. All right. Well, let's shift gears here. If you guys are cool with that. Are we talking about popes or moms? Let's go to popes.

We're talking about popes? Let's go to popes. I thought we were going to moms. All right. Let's go popes. You going to go popes? Let's go popes. And we'll end with moms.

We'll end with moms. Because obviously Mother's Day. So guys, we officially have a new pope. Let's go, man. Actually, wait. They officially have a new pope. Yeah, yeah. I'm actually, I'm getting my news right now.

Oh, there you go. So, wait, can you look it up? What's the guy's name? He's from Chicago. Yeah, he's first American pope in history. Okay. So, bro, this is an amazing. Good for you.

So, bro, this is hilarious. So he's from Chicago. Best tweet ever. Somebody said Chicago produced a pope before it produced a quarterback that threw for 4,000 yards. There you go. If you're an NFL fan, that's a hilarious tweet. His name is, so it's Cardinal Robert Prevost. I hope I'm pronouncing that right.

And then they give him a new name. And his new name, or he will be known as Pope Leo the 14th. Ooh, fancy. From Chicago, Illinois. He's the Pope number 267th in the Roman Catholic Church. All right, can I explain this real quick? Please do. Okay, so here's what I want to do this.

I think like 30% of Lake Point. are recovering Catholics. So the joke is... It was higher. It may be higher. It may be higher. I hope he's higher. I hope he's like 90%.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 90% yeah. So honestly, we get a ton of questions about Catholicism,

differences. At Lake Point, we're team Protestant. So let me explain, like, where's the, where's the Pope thing come from? Why do Catholics have a Pope?

Why do we not believe in the authority of the Pope? So let me do this as fast as I can. So this comes from Catholics build this theology off of Matthew 16 where the apostle Peter confesses Jesus as the Christ. Let me read the passage and then by the way you guys can interject anything at any point here. And then I'll talk about where this comes from. So Matthew 16, Simon Peter answered, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus replied, blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood,

but my father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter. And on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades or hell will not overcome it. And I'll give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth, we'll be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven. That is where Catholics, they take that verse.

And they go, Peter was the initial rock on which the church was built. They view him as, okay, Jesus left. And then he became the quote, they call him the vicar, the vicar of Christ, and that he speaks with the authority of Christ when he speaks from the papal seat. It's called ex-cathedra. So that's the Catholic doctrine.

Now, there's two views on this passage, and if you've ever wondered, what's the difference between Protestants and Catholics? This right here, by the way, well, there's a lot. The Protestant Reformation, there was a lot. But this is one of the biggies, is these two views of interpretation of this passage. So two views.

what Protestants say, the two views are either Peter was the rock on which the church was built, or Protestants would say, the other view, is that, no, no, Peter's confession of Jesus being the Christ. That's the rock, the confession of Jesus being the Christ. That's the rock on which the church was built. So we as Protestants, we take view number two, that it's the confession of Jesus as the Christ that's the rock on which the church was built. I'm going to give two evidences for this because we're a team Protestant. Here's why we believe that and not that Peter himself was the vicar of Christ and the first pope.

Number one, it's just anecdotal. There's a lot of differences among denominations in the people of God. all over the place, you know. I got a little jokes about it, but I won't do them right now. But if you were to take literally... I'm so curious right now. I'm not going to do it.

I usually do the... This is another joke I get in like once a year. I usually do the lot of difference among the people of God. What do I usually say? I usually say like Jews do not recognize Jesus as Messiah. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as an authority. Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store. That's usually the other Baptist joke that's great.

is I knew there's something at the other It's too good It's too good The other Baptist show That's great is How do you

How do you keep a Baptist From drinking all your beer Invite two of them And it's the kind of the joke Is if you invite one They'll drink all your beer If you invite two They won't drink any

Because they have to pretend Like that's the joke That's hilarious Anyway so here's what were you going to? Your beer's safe around me. Yeah, it's not our thing. That's hilarious. So, okay, so here's the evidence is if you take every Christian on the face of this planet, they're going to disagree about tons of things. Here's one thing that every Christian on the face of the planet agrees on, that Jesus is the

Christ, the son of the living God. So I just want to point that out. Like anecdotally, when you look around, huh, there's one thing that it seems like the entire church is built on, and it's the confession of Jesus of Christ. The second thing is, what we want to do, when we're interpreting scripture, is interpret unclear scripture according to clear scripture. It's called the theologians will call it the perspicuity or the purposciity of scripture. That what needs to be clear has been made clear. So Protestants will point this out. This is Ephesians 220, and it seems to make extremely clear.

Peter is not to rock. Peter's the, Jesus is the rock. Here's what says. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household built. Watch this. Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. So it seems really clear as scripture saying, what's the whole thing built on?

One rock. Jesus is the chief cornerstone. A couple things that I'll just tack on here and then you guys can. Before you go there, it's really interesting. So Matthew chapter 16 verse 16, you know, Jesus tells Peter, hey Peter, you, or Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, three verses later, do you know what Jesus calls Peter? Satan is.

That's good behind me. That's three verses later. And so I'm not saying, you know, again, it just shows one, the honesty of scripture. But two, it's just like, hey, Peter's just like you and I in many ways. Dude, you know what's interesting about that. That sparks a thought throughout church history, the most common world figure that Christians throughout church history have thought was the Antichrist has been the Pope. Interesting.

More than any other world figure. If you go throughout church history, a lot of people throughout church history have been like, it either is the Pope or it's going to be the Pope. So let me talk about, so it's interesting that you say that. The dude they thought was the rock. Jesus is like Satan's inside of that guy working. So I'm not saying that's about the Pope right now, but that's interesting. Let me say, so here's a few problems that I, like if somebody comes from a Catholic background,

like, man, I really need to think about this. Here's a few problems with the view that Peter was the first pope, and then it's called the doctrine of apostolic succession. So that's what they're doing right now. The conclave just finished their whole thing, choosing the new pope. That is the doctrine of apostolic succession that there is an unbroken line from Peter, Pope to Pope to Pope to Pope to Pope to whoever this dude is. So a few things. Number one, the problem is the purposuity problem. Dude, you're building an entire theology of your ecclesiology, which is a big word for just structure of a church leadership.

Off of that one pretty vague verse, you're building the whole thing off that one verse. Seems a little sketch, number one. Number two, even if you believe that Peter actually was the first pope, there is not one verse. anywhere in the New Testament that somebody could go and there's evidence of apostolic succession so that even if you went Peter actually was originally what the church was built on there are no verses that point to oh and after Peter they're going to choose the next guy and the next guy and the next guy and the next guy and the next guy and not even that he was the maximum authority of the early church either like he's not mentioned as the you know the head of the church back then it was just

one of the apostles. What Catholic apologists will say, and they're right, they'll point out that Peter, first of all, Jesus only says that to Peter. Number two, they'll point out, and this is true, that anytime there's a list of the apostles this made in the New Testament, Peter is always listed first, because in Greek, the order of the list was usually indicating a hierarchy. So it's a bit of reach. But if you're going to go there, that's what they'll say. So you got the periscuity problem. You got the apostolic succession problem. There ain't nothing in there.

Here's another one that's kind of a big deal. Even Catholics, honest ones, and there's a lot of honest Catholics, will acknowledge there have been like multiple popes in history that weren't even Christians. I mean like dudes that were doing unspeakable things, I won't say on this podcast to people, murdering people in mass. The whole Spanish Inquisition was it was almost like a Muslim jihadist thing. They got imported into that little period in Catholicism where it was convert or die. So like that's another problem.

Here's another problem. Peter in First and Second Peter refers to himself as a fellow elder. And he's writing to just normal elders of churches just like Lake Point's got elders. And he goes, hey, here's who I am. I'm a fellow elder. I'm an under shepherd. It's like the exact opposite of saying, I'm the supreme papal authority over all. It's like the exact opposite of that.

Which, by the way, leads to the last thing. It's just a death star vulnerability for the church. When you build the ecclesiological structure, the leadership structure of a one billion, by the way, a one billion person segment of the church on one dude, that right there is why people throughout church history have said the Antichrist may someday be one of the popes. Because all it takes is for just like in three verses, Peter went from You're the Rock to get thee behind me Satan. And when Jesus says that, he's not addressing the person. He's addressing the spirit behind the person.

Well, listen, man, if the apostle Peter could get hijacked by literally Satan, I guarantee you that some Pope could someday. So it's like the other thing people point out is, man, there's a very, it's a death star vulnerability that could lead a billion people away from faith in Jesus and, you know, open up an anti-Christ possibility. I'm curious when you hear that, like you guys have a little more, because of Lake Point in Espaniel and some of that background, probably a little more familiarity and experience with people of Catholic backgrounds.

How's that land on you? Any other thoughts? To me, like, it's just confusing because they see, I grew up in a Catholic environment. I went to Catholic church my whole life until high school. And they see the Pope as, and even though they say that Jesus is the authority, they see the Pope as the authority of the church. And that's just heresy. Like, it's not true, it's not right.

And even we saw with Pope Francisco, Francis, Francis, you know, he started saying some things about same-sex marriage and stuff. And everybody was following. him. And they were like, oh, this is a new direction the church is taking. I was like, well, the Word of God says something else. So when you put a maximum authority of the church that is human, like, that itself is a problem, like, because Jesus and the Word of God is just the authority and no more. So, and I do believe, like, there was a quarter million people in the plaza, like waiting for the probe. Like, it was, yeah, it was like, you know, a big hype. And they see, like, as an idol, honestly. So even though they say they don't, they do. Well, I think that

the history of, if you research the history of just all the popes, is really interesting because like all throughout history, it's not like everybody agreed from the beginning. Oh yeah, he's the pope and he has jurisdiction and power over every church in the world. It's like throughout history, actually, like a thousand years later, the great schism, so three branches of Christianity, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox and Protestantism, a thousand years later, Eastern Orthodox, basically a group of people that were like, hey, actually, we don't accept your bishop as our authority. And so the church split. And then to the point where in 18, if you research this,

in 1854, Pope Pius the 9th, he basically said, we're going to settle this once and for all. And he said, now this, I'm going to declare some things of the faith. So basically, you have to believe it or else you're not a Christian anymore. He said, this is Vatican 1. He said, one, you have to agree that Peter is the Rock, and he's the first pope. Two, you have to agree that the bishop of Rome, aka the pope, has fallen supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church.

basically every Christian in the world, you have to listen to what we say. And then in 1870, Vatican 1 as well, he defined the doctrine of the Pope's infallibility, which means basically that he has the authority to speak ex-cathedral, which means that in some issues, he can say this is at the same level of authority as scripture. And so obviously that also is a problem because what he did after that or what happened after that is in 1854, there's been two statements that have been ex-cathedra in Roman Catholicism, or at least two that are more widely recognized. One, in 1854, not long ago, the Pope Pius, the ninth declared ex-Cathedra,

which means that again, you have to believe it or else you're not a Roman Catholic. You have to believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. So, like, if somebody disagrees with that, that's it, you're out. It's the term it's called anathema. You're cut from the church. and in 1950 again not long ago pope pious the 12th he declared ex-cathedra the emaculid that the mary was basically the mary was assumed body and soul into heaven again if you disagree with that you're cut you're out and so now you have the authority of the pope in this case the same authority of scripture

so that is Pamela pointed out you're hitting it and again this is like even if whether you're Catholic or Protestant, understanding this distinction is really important for you as a disciple. Because this is the other difference between Protestants and Catholics is they have different authority structures. So when Martin Luther nails the 95 Theses to the Castelora Wittenberg, it was 1599? Was it 1599? It was either 1599 or 1499. When he did that, he had five, they were called the five solas of the Protestant Reformation. By the way, we're team Protestant. I want to make that really clear. His five solas were, and he was differentiating biblical doctrine from historic Catholic aberrances in doctrine.

One was Sola Fide, salvation is by faith alone. So it's not faith plus sacraments, or faith plus obedience, faith alone. Number two, Sola Grosia, these are all Latin. So la Gradia, that's by grace alone. Number three, Sola Christus, Christ alone. Number four, Solidea, Gloria to the glory of God alone. But here's the big one that is we're talking about, difference between prizes Catholics.

Sola Scriptura. And this is really big because Catholics view two things at the top of the authority org chart equally. They go, the church and scripture are equally at the top of the authority orchart. Protestants go, nope, sola scrupura, scripture alone is at the top of the orchart. So if the church disagrees with the scriptures, the scriptures always win. the Catholic Church says, man, they're equal, and it's very complicated when you get into the linguistics of it, but they kind of go, in order to rightly interpret the scriptures, the church has to help you.

So really, they have equal, they're equal in authority. And we're just like, no, man, we're out. Sola Scriptura, that's the Supreme Court over all the other courts. The highest authority. Highest authority. That's right. That's it, man. That's right.

Anything else on this with you guys who have a little more background here? Jenny, you never attended Catholic. You guys were Methodist church growing up? Okay. I was raised Catholic, obviously. I guess not obviously. And yeah, I mean, my family, on my dad's side, they're still Catholic. And so, you know, there's some differences there.

And I love them. Yeah, that's right. But this is really interesting. I do find the, you know, I think this is, if I'm not mistaken, most people that are probably listening to this in our lifetime, we've experienced. three different popes. Is that right? If you do the math, I mean,

John Paul. The second, Pope Francis. Oh, no, no, no, hold on. Wait, John Paul, maybe there's more. John Paul, the second, the German one. Yeah. And then he resigned. And that has, it's been a while since that happened.

And then Pope Francis, and now this one. Oh, okay. That's a lot of popes. Dude, we visited the Vatican and we were in Rome. It was crazy, man. Dude, I did not leave with a great feeling. Honestly, it was beautiful. Like, there were things that were beautiful,

but it was just like, I don't know, it messed me up inside a little bit. And then there's this door, and I don't want to get the facts wrong, but they opened it. Yeah, it was open while we were there. They opened it every, what, 25 years, and you're absolved of your sin

if you walk through it, something like that. Yeah, what's it? I can't remember what it's called. The Holy Door or something, isn't it? It has a name. It's like a specific name. They usually seal it with concrete. Yeah.

And it's got like a gold or a bronze on the outside. It doesn't feel, yeah. It doesn't feel right. There you go. There you go, man. All right. Hey, let's talk about mothers. All right.

We got two right here. We just celebrated that this one last weekend. Happy Mother's Day. Happy Mother's Day. That's right. Hey, let's talk. Let's find some helpful things here. What are some temptations, sins, and struggles mom's face?

Let's go there. None. We're done. Thank you so much for coming. We're going. Where do we start? Do you want to start, Jenna? Yeah, I can start.

I think one big temptation is that the world will just have you allured thinking, like, oh, I should be doing so many more important things out there and really get your mind envision off of, honestly, the priorities God's given you. First, it's him and then it's your husband and then your children and then it's everything else. But I think that there is such a pool culturally to get you to believe, like, hey, the important things are outside of your house. You need to get outside of your house and do some important things. And so I just, I think that is a temptation that we have to really guard our hearts and our minds again. and just seeing things the way that God does

and seeing the priorities he's given us and to walk in that. Can I, while you're talking about that, do you guys have that stuff I dropped in the Trinity? You get those things? Okay, first, don't show the graphs first. Show the headlines. So, like, this is what I do want to hit.

First of all, let me really clear. The Bible does not teach that a woman, wife, mother's place is the home. it teaches that her priority is the home. So there's nothing wrong with a woman working outside the home. And I don't have time to read it. I got a Proverbs 31 like, you know, it talks about she works eagerly with her hands, bringing her food from afar. It's talking about her running a marketplace.

It's talking, you know, all this stuff. It's an exhausting list. She's busy. She's so industrious. I know. It would be nice to be her. She makes linen garments and sells them and supplies the merchants with sashes, so the Bible's really clear, like, hey, man, it's not that a woman, wife,

mothers places the home, but hey, but her priority is. In the same way, we all understand that. Her priority is. What I want to point out that Jan is alluding to is like everything in our culture is trying to sell women on the, it's a lie, that actually what would make you most happy is prioritizing everything except your home, prioritizing career and travel and girl boss. So like this is Time Magazine.

Is it up? Did you fire it yet? All right. That's Time Magazine. The child free life when having it all means not having children. So it's like just take that in. And it's kind of that's selling you something, right? It's like, oh man, you know what would be a lot more fun than changing diapers?

Lay in on the beach. That'd be a lot more fun. And I want to get to that in a second. Here's another one, New York Times. This is like totally classic New York Times vibes. Married heterosexual motherhood in America is a game no one wins. And you just think, like, if you're a mom with a bunch of little, I call them crumb snatchers, you know, scurrying around the floor and you're changing diapers and wiping noses and cleaning up all the stuff, you really, you read a headline like that and you're like, They're probably right.

I'm probably wasting my life here. I could be doing fun stuff and da-da-da-da-da. But actually, the Bible says the children are a blessing from the Lord, a great reward. And guess what? That's also what data says. So check this out. The data shows the exact opposite of what the headlines say. So mothers' lives are, here's the data, less lonely, more meaningful and happier.

And what you're seeing there is that if you can't, you got to look real close. The mothers are the ones with the orange. They're the orange bar graphs. And the women without children. By the way, obviously the Bible is not saying your life is purposeless if you don't have children. Jan and I obviously wrestle with infertility. We know the emotion they come behind that. That's not what we're saying.

But dude, let's just unapologetically say what the Bible says. Children are a blessing. They are a great reward. That's what it says. And we're going to treat it as true. What you're seeing there is that, look, the data is really clear. They're less lonely. Their life feels, I got a 41-year-old life.

You're meaningful? More meaningful. And then considerably happier. That camera's in front of the thing, so I can't see the graph. Now, do the other one. The other graph. Okay. So this is the other data.

Guess who the happiest people in America are? Married women with children are the happy. So you'll see it right there is the second from the left. And the green part of the bar graph are the percentage of those women who identified as, quote, very happy. And the red part of the bar graph are the ones who identified as not too happy. The married women with children almost double by far the highest percentage that said, I'm really happy. and almost half percentage that's not too happy.

So I just want to point out, Janice saying, man, one of the biggest struggles is this lie that like, man, I'm probably missing out, FOMO. Yeah. And the thing is that most of the things moms do,

they go unseen. Nobody sees them. Like, I don't know. My kids think that their clean laundry just appears magically in their drawers. Like, oh, there's something happened.

Like, nobody sees what we do. And it's not so much that we want public praise, which wouldn't be too bad. But I think we feel because nobody sees it doesn't count. And I think it's a very human thing. That's why when we sin in secret and we keep our sin in secret, we think it has no consequences because nobody sees.

Or when we want to cheat on our diet, if we eat the cake, you know, when nobody sees, the calories don't count. So we feel that if nobody sees, then it doesn't count. It's meaningless. But the Bible says that your father that sees you in the secret will reward you in public. So I compare, like, honestly, very real. Like, I just preached this weekend. Thousands of people clapped for me when I finished my sermon.

I could feel this is more important. But no, like the Bible says, public praise, that's the reward. But what we do in the secret with our kids, teaching them the Bible, that we last forever, that we have eternal fruits, that has a reward that I may not see in the moment, but I know it's going to have eternal consequences. and I value that more than the public praise that I could receive. So I think for moms, sometimes we feel that because it doesn't count because nobody sees what we do. Amen. Yeah. Yeah, there's this quote I've heard before.

I want to get it right, but it's faithfulness doesn't feel like what it's accomplishing. And so it's like... That's really good. Yeah. Faithfulness doesn't feel like what is accomplishing. So being faithful, doing the long. Feeding your family, loving your kids, loving your husband, like, you know, all these things that you do every day. Like, it's not, you know, you're not going to be getting the applause.

But you're accomplishing eternal fruit. And so it makes me think of Galatians 6, 9, where it says, And let us not grow weary of doing good for in due season we will reap if we do not give up. And so it's like you are sowing seeds of faithfulness and there's going to be a harvest. You don't know when it's going to be a harvest, but there's a harvest coming in your entire family's life. Just be faithful with what God's called you to do. Amen.

Anna, I think, so, you know, one thing we're going to hit is, like, what can husbands and fathers do to help blessing courage? I think what you two just said, I'd love to know what you think, Jana, but, like, it feels to me like one of the most important things I can do for Jana is notice, hey man. Like at work, it's what you said, Pamela, like when I finished teaching, thousands of people clap. When I walk into an elders meeting, they notice what I did.

And it, like, dude, that blesses me. It motivates you. And I think for husbands to have that in your head, hey, man, she doesn't have a boss that's going to notice what she did. Her clientele, quote unquote, six-year-olds, don't say thank you for the underwear getting cleaned and folded. But it's like, so hey, hey, buddy, if you're the husband, guess what your job is? Your job is to be the one that notices. And so like, Jan and I've talked about one of the best things I can say to Jana is thank you for working so hard for our family. And notice.

Hey, thank you. Matt, thank you. Matt, hey, guys, can we thank mom for cooking tonight, you know, that kind of stuff? Nobody can do it but you. So, hey, buddy, let's recognize that and be the ones. And you said it. You said specific. And I think that goes a long way whenever it's not this vague of, thank you for all you do.

It's specific, like specific things you've done like that. I think that goes a long way there. I think sometimes husbands also struggle because they say, well, I just, I don't know what's actually helpful to my wife. And this really easy solution to that, you can ask. She will tell you. There you go. Yeah, we have a honey-doo list ready for you. And I think similar to what you said, Josh.

I think I've asked Brogan, we have had conversations about this, and she has said that basically just me being a voice of encouragement to her and just say, hey, you know, after putting our son to bed, hey, thank you're such an amazing mom. I thank you so much for this. You bless her family so much by what you do and noticing and then vocalizing it and letting her appreciate it and the family is blessed. And then speaking that courage into her, like I'm encouraging you and letting her consistently know, bombarding whatever, her mind with like, like, Like, man, you bless us. Like God has gifted you and our family so much better because of who you are. That's been huge to her. And one very powerful thing you can say is, honey, go to bed. I'll take care of the dishes. That's a very powerful thing you can say. Amen.

Amen. Amen. My point is that, yeah, words are great, but also your actions. Because sometimes you can say, oh, I appreciate this so much. But she just finished, you know, the kitchen and it's potless. But you go in and serve a glass of milk and you spill all over. and you leave because you don't appreciate the work that she had to put in to clean, you can be a little more considerate, like, pick up after yourself.

I mean. That's like a hypothetical scenario, right? Of course. You're not speaking about anybody. People leave in their coffee cups on the counter. Yeah. Or clothes. I leave with three men.

I know what I'm talking about. And to clarify your husband and your two kids. Yes, of course, of course. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for pointing out. That's a different sermon. Sometimes you can say nice word, but then deny with your actions.

So another practical thing that you can do is learn your wife's love language. Like, for example, years ago, my husband has always been very romantic, very sweet. There's always flowers on my table, and I love that. But then we discovered years ago, we took the test, and I'm acts of service. So for me, like, you know, print away the dishes or, like, you know, taking out the trash speaks more to me than flowers. on my table. So like learning that, like she's words of affirmation, time or like gives or whatever, like speak your love, your wife's love language too, like not in the way you think, but what she actually needs the most. Pamela, when you were, when you and Pastor Daniel were dating and

he got your flowers, you're like, oh, that's so romantic. Thank you so much. You got married. He got your flowers. Why are you wasting money on flowers? Clean up the milk. There's a bunch of dishes over here. He doesn't do that. Sorry, honey. Man, that's, and the principle there, there's a biblical principle is from 1st Peter. First Peter 3. It says, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way. It's like, man, your job as a husband is this been the rest of your life being a student of your wife's life, emotions, motivations.

What are her encouragements? What are her discouragement? Jana, I know, like, this like, I think you're okay. Like the FOMO. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's like, you know, that's a consistent, you know, every few months, Jan is like, man, am I, am I missing out? You know, now she's always super, her priorities are always in the right spot, but.

Yeah, I love what I do. I love getting to homeschool our kids, but yeah, I'll let you keep going. Yeah, it's just, yeah. That phone was like, man, I wonder if I could write a book. I wonder if I could, am I missing out? And, and it's sometimes Janel just, you know, we did on a walk, we take a walk almost basically every night, like 1.6 miles. And sometimes Janet just needs an outside voice to remind her, you know what, babe?

It might right now feel like, man, am I missing out? But if you did that and we prioritize something over our family and our kids, then someday we're going to wake up and be 70 and we're going to look back at all the time that we could have invested in our kids and we would be saying at 70, oh man, I missed out on what I could have invested in the kids and we will have wished in that moment. And sometimes it's like we should need a pep talk. Yeah. Right.

And the encouragement that hits that thing right there. I think it's all moms. We all feel that we could have, you know, could do more. We should be doing more or should do better as moms. I think that's a very general feeling. But like we need to remember that our identity is not what we do. So being a mom is one thing you do is your priority, but it's just one thing you do. So that's not your identity.

You're at first, a daughter of God. And what he calls you to do, that's what you're supposed to do. But that's not your identity. And second, your value does not come from your performance. So we're constantly grading ourselves. Am I doing enough? How am I doing this? Did I have the meal?

In everything. But that's not where our value comes from. Like God already thought you were worthy to die for. That's more than enough. You don't need to be proving yourself constantly or just trying to do more or do better all the time. For I'll give our, maybe we can start shutting her down. I'll give three targets.

Like, Jan and I had this conversation one time years and years ago about what are things that are more meaningful for you to hear from me than I love you. Because I'm a, yes, I grew up in a family. It was like a high, I love you a family kind of thing. The three things, if you're a husband, that I'm like, your wife needs to hear this from you. in addition to serving and I'm just talking about what they need to hear. I think one, it strikes her heart when you're, hey, I'm so glad I married you. I'm so glad I married you because, you know, insecurities and all the things.

And it's just knowing 20 years later, 40 years later, I'm so glad I'm married you. One, two, we hit this. Make sure that you're telling her, thank you for working so hard for our fifth. Thank you for the laundry, babe. I don't take that for granted. Thank you for dinner. Thank you for, you know. And again, most mothers is, their whole life is secret sacrifices and quiet crucifixions.

And it's, hey, man, let's make sure that somebody notices. And then last one is, dude, hey, you are such a great mom. The kids are so lucky to have you his mom. Because you guys, you guys could affirm this or deny this. You don't have to agree with me. I don't feel like I ever meet or pray with a mom who feels like she's crushing it. I don't feel like I ever meet that mom. And so just like making sure that somebody's like, you are crushing.

You're a great mom. Yeah. But my husband did that last night. Like I was riding the teacher's appreciation cars at 1130 at night because, you know, that's the best I can do. I'm sorry. But I was doing all that. And he approached and he just said, you're such a great mom. And it almost made me cry.

And I'm not a very sensitive person. But like, it's just thank you. somebody noticed and it's not just shallow words. Like he's really appreciating what I do and he's seeing in me what sometimes I don't see. So it carries a lot of weight when your husband blesses you with those things. Amen. That's great. Jenna, would you close us in prayer?

I would love to. Father, thank you. Just so much for this time and for your word. And I just pray to you for just guiding us and leading us through your words, Father. So I just pray for anyone who's listening who just needs to be encouraged. I just want them to know that you are the one who sees all things that they do, Father, and that they will reap a harvest if they don't give up, Father. So I just pray that you will just encourage the weary and just reignite their joy.

And I just pray that you will draw them near to you, Father. I just pray that you will just encourage the hearts of all the moms who are listening and just to know what they're doing has eternal value. And we pray this in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Thanks for tuning in to live free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review, and share the podcast.

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