Live Free with Josh Howerton - Were America's Founders REALLY Christian...Or Have We Been Lied To? (ft. Tim Barton) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

What if much of what you've been told about America's founding isn't the whole story? As America approaches its 250th anniversary, Pastor Josh Howerton sits down with historian Tim Barton to examine six of the most common myths surrounding the nation's history. From Christopher Columbus and the Founding Fathers to Christianity's influence on America's founding and the role of believers in public life, this conversation dives into original documents, historical evidence, and firsthand accounts that challenge popular narratives. Whether you're passionate about history, faith, or understanding the foundations of our culture, this episode will encourage you to think critically, seek truth, and engage the world through a biblical worldview. In This Episode: • Was Christopher Columbus really a genocidal colonizer? • Were the Founding Fathers mostly deists? • Was America founded as a secular nation? • Is America's story defined entirely by slavery? • Did settlers commit genocide against Native Americans? • Should Christians stay out of politics and public life? History matters. Truth matters. And as followers of Jesus, how we understand both can shape how we live today. Stand firm. Think biblically. Live free. 🧢 Want a Live Free hat of your own? Visit LiveFree.shop 📲 Looking to grow deeper in your faith? Check out the Lakepointe App to access our Discipleship Guide, daily Bible reading plan, and more. Text APP to 20411 to download

Had it not been for pastors involvement, we wouldn't even had an America to begin with. We wouldn't have had a declaration. We wouldn't have had a constitution. We wouldn't have had a bill of rights. The strategy is rewrite the past to control the future. If you're not seeing the spiritual decay of society and if you're not motivated to get involved, I don't think you're paying attention. Well, hey, Lifree Nation, before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Liv Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching it,

and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook and our church online platform and it's more than just watching a service. There are a live host in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you

and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church or just looking for a place to start, church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God, is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend and now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, Live Free Nation, welcome to a very special 250th anniversary of the birth

of our nation episode of Live Free. The Bible says, blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord and you have been lied to immensely about the degree to which that has been true of our nation. So we're about to deprogram you from The Matrix and debunk six very specific lies with the help of our mind-blowing guest, Tim Barton. Now, if you could do this, if you could like, comment, and share this episode, that helps us know that the extra time and effort that we put into bonus episodes is worth it. So like, comment, especially on YouTube, and share it. That helps us know it's worth it.

And then I've just been informed that 47% of our live-free listeners are not subscribed to the pod. That also helps us tremendously. So click the little subscribe button. Happy Independence Day week and enjoy the pod. Tim Barton, welcome back. Good to be here, bro. This is great. Okay, hey, you are at least my first repeat guest on Live Free.

Wow. First one. Come on, let's go. Okay, so here's what this is. This is, we're going to release this podcast the week of Independence Day. Come on. America 250th anniversary of our nation. Last time you were on, we totally nerded out on.

So long. It was a, bro. But I'll be honest, that episode had one of the longest tales of any episode we've ever done. Like, still to this day, that's one of the ones that people grabbed me And they're like, I just saw that. It's been amazing. Praise God. Yeah, it's been incredible.

I know, man. So here's what we're going to do. This is going to be a really interesting pod. We're essentially going to have you debunk seven myths that guys like me who grew up in normal American school systems and college programs that we got programmed about our nation. And then we're just going to have you deprogram us. Let's kick this pig. Yes, dude. I love it.

Okay. Now. I wanted to say it in Spanish, but it wasn't very good. Yeah. So shout out. Carlos Arraso. Now, I do want to say this. And by the way, he didn't ask me to do this. We don't get paid to do this. I only recommend books that I'm like, that book was so dang good. I want everybody to read it. I found out about this guy because of this book, I read it on

vacation to Gulf Shores a few years ago. If you go back and I did a pod on the Pope and the death penalty, and that's when I was reading this book. It's like an old live free episode. And dude, for real, I just want to say it one more time. Somebody pass this to me. and then I think your dad, it was either you or your dad reached out to me on X. I can't remember who. And then I couldn't put this down. I read it in three days,

something like that on vacation. And it felt like being deprogrammed from the Matrix. Yeah. I'm serious. I felt like everything I had ever been told about the founding of our nation was like a complete lie. Yep. And it's just all source material.

Like so, again, I'm not getting paid for this. He didn't ask me to do this. I only recommend books and I'm like, that was so dang good. I wish everybody would read it. So thanks for writing. Bro, thank you. Thank you.

Do you write you? Your dad write it. We co-wrote it. Our names are both on it. We have different segments and different people we highlighted. So we work together. Which is an interesting journey, by the way. Oh, bad, dude.

Working with your dad, somebody's been doing it for 30 or 40 years, and you're like, I have an idea. And he's like, we don't do it that way. And I'm like, but dad, there's technology now. You don't have to handwrite the draft. He doesn't. Totally. But right. It was a journey.

Your dad's a legend. He's incredible. Yeah. Your dad's a legend. So we're going to deep program. Let me tell people where we're going. and because you can, when I say this, you're going to be like, oh, dang, okay, so we're going there.

And then it'll make sense why we got you here. So I'm just going to tell you where we're going. We're going to start with, these are all things I felt like I picked up in high school. Christopher Columbus was a racist genocidal colonizer who took in sole slaves. Then we're going to go George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and most of the founders were D.S. not Christians. Then we're going to go, we're going to throw up a mega viral Katie Couric clip that I felt like took over America for two weeks and respond to America was birthed as a pluralistic secular nation,

not on Christian principles in any sense. That's a direct quote. I'm very interested to see where you go there. Then we're going to go, America was built on slavery, and I'm having you talk about the 1619 project. Then we're going to go, the American settlers committed genocide against the Native Americans and stole their land. We may even play a land acknowledgement. Okay. From a stolen land acknowledgement. Just what should Christians think about that kind of thing? separation, church, and state means Christianity and religion must be excluded from public life. And then this one lands on me in particular.

Christians, especially pastors, should stay out of politics and the culture wars. And you're just going to rapid fire these. And that's all we're doing. That's all we're doing. That's all we're doing. Happy birthday America, okay? Can I tell you one other thing before we get in? Yeah.

So last time you're here, I may have you edit this out. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this publicly. So in a couple weeks, I'm going on. and I don't know what he wants to talk about. When you were here, you showed me the first time one of these little guys, what is that? A heart shield Bible. That's a hard shield Bible. Will you tell the story real quick?

Yeah, it's from World War II. The Gideons partnered with the U.S. military during World War II to make sure every soldier could have a Bible. But for some of those that were deploying to some really rough areas, they made unique Bibles. It was called the Hartshield Bible. They put a steel plate on the front of it. And the idea was you drop it in your chest pocket and it would keep your, boom, done. And it would keep your heart saved. Now, if you get shot anywhere else, you're in trouble.

But right there. And really, it could stop and did stop bullets. Actually, I posted about this on Facebook and there were two people whose grandfather had one of these in the war. Totally. Specifically said, and what haven't posted a picture? Come on. What I'm posted a picture where it stopped a bullet.

Come on. While their grandfather was wearing it. Yeah. But the fact of the government, partners. with the Gideons who do the pocket New Testament, usually with Psalms and Proverbs in the back of it. Remarkable. And that wasn't controversial at the time.

It was like, no, you need God's word. And also you protect your heart with a steel plate. So it's super cool. Well, and the president, like, had a letter encouraging soldiers to read the Bible. FDR has an acknowledgement in the front, encouraging everybody to carry this with you to keep you safe, spiritually and physically.

That's right. Yeah. So anyway, when I go on... I'm planning to keep. give him one of these a gift. And I'm pretty excited about it. That's incredible. Thanks for the assist. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's get in. Let's do it. Let's talk. America 250. Happy birthday America. So let's debunk some, I seriously feel like we're deprogramming people from the Matrix. So I'm just going to shoot these at you. Let's start right here.

Tim Barton, Christopher Columbus, instrumental in the founding of our nation. Yeah. We should tear down all the statues. We should get rid of Columbus Day. It's evil. Nope. Okay. Well, you're tipping your hat. because Tim Barton, Christopher Columbus was a racist, genocidal colonizer who took insult slaves. He should not be celebrated. What say you?

Yeah, so when I hear this claim, I like to ask questions to find out where somebody's coming from and how much they know because usually you deal with either the intentional or the ignorant. We deal with that in theology too. But it makes a difference, right? Because Jesus talks about that you don't cast your pearl before swine. Like you go somewhere, there's times when you shake the dust off your feet and keep moving,

but there's times you've got to dig in, right? There's times, no, I don't care if they stoned me and threw me out of the city. I'm walking back in, I'm not done, and you need to have some spiritual wisdom to differentiate who you're dealing with. And so I always want to know, am I dealing with someone who just has no idea

where they're talking about? And maybe they have a good heart and have bad information. Or is it someone who's like, no, they're just full on drinking Marxist Kool-Lade. And so you have a different conversation in those scenarios. So I always want to ask some basic questions

to see where you're coming from. I'm the first one. here. That's what I've been told. Yeah. I've heard about him selling slaves and killing people. So which voyage did Columbus enslave the natives? I don't know. I got no. He made four, didn't he? Right. Okay. Okay. So what was the difference between the four? And I asked this because most people, most people didn't even know there was four. So you're just the most short, brilliant pastor. But most people don't know those four. The first one was a voyage focused on attending for exploration. And really, he was trying to find a faster route to get over right to Asia, Eastern Asia,

because at the time you'd had the Silk Road and you have the Ottoman Empire that comes in and they're attacking people until they can't use the land route anymore. And so how do we do this? And Italians were some of the best mariners there were. These are incredible people at the sea. But generally, they're having to go north or south, like either

around Europe and Asia or south around Africa. And he's like, guys, there's a better way. We know it's a globe. Now he was correcting a globe. He was off big time in dimensions. Didn't know there's another continent there. And in fairness, some people would say, but like the Vikings. Other people have discovered, right? Like kind of the Canada area. Some argue they made it as far as Minnesota.

Sure. But where he was in Western Europe, they weren't. Wait, is that why they're called the Minnesota Vikings? Isn't that interesting? Is it why? I believe that's a connection. That is the connection, I believe. Shout out NFL. Let's go ahead. Sorry. So the background of Columbus is he's looking for a shorter route. But the reason it matters is he's wanting to open up a trade route because he thinks we can make money by opening a trade route. So it matters because when he arrives, he's not on an admission of conquest. He's trying to establish trade. This makes a difference because if you're a salesman, right,

we can think about like different people that are in sales. They are usually trying to be so smooth and sweet and get you on board. When he shows up, the first tribe he met were the Taino tribe. He actually writes back to the king and queen, because Ferdin and Isabella are the ones that actually fund the expedition. And they called it a meager expedition, because there's only three ships, the Nina Pina and Santa Maria that go.

And he writes back and says, you will be so impressed by what we found. These are some of the best people we have ever discovered, and you will soon rejoice that they will be part of the Christian faith. Bro, I'm going to read some of this. This blew me away, so I don't want to pull your punch. I'm going to read some of this. I didn't know how thoroughly Christian that dude was.

Yeah. And that actually direct source quotes from your book, the guy actually had a missionary impulse. So anyway, you go ahead. Keep going. Well, why don't you read this? Because then I'll tell more the story. Okay, dude.

So I pulled four quotes from your book that blew me away. Because, dude, I did. I grew up seeing all the statues getting torn down and the protests and, you know, like literally in my high school. And I'm like rural Kentucky. This is not like Portland. Like, you know, hey, guys, we shouldn't celebrate too much. But if you don't know the story, you can believe a lie.

Okay, so that's what happened to me. Right. So I read stuff like this. All right, this is a direct close to your book. As an avid student of the Bible, Columbus came to believe it was possible to sail across the Atlantic to reach people in Asia who had never heard of the God who is. And then you quote him, quote, this is a direct quote from Christopher Columbus. the God who is the hope of all the ends of the earth and the far of the seas.

He's quoting Psalm 655. Okay, I'll give you another one. When he dies, this is from your book. His final words, he quotes Jesus, into thy hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit, quoting Luke 2346. In a letter to the queen, this is what, like, she, apparently he's corresponding with her. You'll give me, you know, you probably give me some contacts here. And he's addressing sort of the, hey man, what you're doing? It's like actually really dangerous.

And this is, dude, I stink and love this guy. This is what he says. No one should be afraid to take on any enterprise in the name of our Savior if it is right and if the purpose is purely for his holy service. Okay. And then I'll give you one last one. This is, oh, and then I want you to talk about this stuff with the Crusades. Yeah.

I didn't know, like, that was the same time period as the Crusades. Yeah. So you'll get into that in a second. So that's fascinating. I may make you talk about the Crusades. We'll see here in a second. But he says this. So what some people apparently said about him was, dude, he just want to do conquest and see

all these people. wealth and that kind of thing. So this is what he says. You write this. He tells us in a book he began in 1502 before his fourth and final trip. This work, which was called the book of prophecies, contains scores of scriptures he personally assembled, addressing, quote, the propagation of the Christian gospel in distant lands. What an appropriate project for someone named Christopher, which means the Christ bearer. Yeah. Okay. So, and I may have you talk about the Crusades thing. But so it's all this is speaking to who he is in his motives, but I keep going, because didn't he do some pretty bad stuff too? So that's valid, right?

So you're looking, now, wait a second. So I don't care if he's a Christian. Yeah. What did he do? Yeah. Like, you could say good things and not do good things. Yeah, people do all the time. Right.

You actually are more defined by your actions and behavior than by your words. So it's clear from his letters, his writings, that he is coming from a Christian perspective, but what do? So he arrives. And again, this is where he writes a king and queen. he met the Taino tribe. And he says, these people are amazing. Well, they have three ships. One of the ships ends up running aground.

More details on that. But for the sake of the brevity, he has to leave part of his crew behind because they can all fit on these two ships. And the Taino say, no problem. Like there's this place over here, fresh water running down. So Columbus and men, they build this little fort. They're going to leave them behind. And this is in Columbus's own writings where he says before they leave, they told us,

just so you know, we're not the only tribe here. There's another tribe. They're not nice people. And Columbus very skeptically is like, I don't think it's correct because they told me like they eat other people. That's crazy. Dude, this was interesting. Nobody eats other.

Like, that's crazy. Okay. So he leaves men behind, goes back, tells the king and queen. And again, like the letter already where he says that this is the most incredible people. Again, he's going for exploration to set up a trade center. And he's like, we found an island. nobody's all like we're going to have free trade it's us we're like this is going to be the best thing ever he goes back tells the king and queen they're like that's amazing nobody's there okay well we're sending

over like 12 or maybe it was 17 hundred or 17 ships 1,200 men we're sending over so many Columbus tells the queen again like this is in his writings he says I think you're sending some bad people many of the men that are coming this is actual quote are not befitting the title Christian fast Columbus said this to the queen so you do okay keep going right he's like, I don't think this is good. Like, some of the people coming, that's not who we want to represent us. So they go over, well, this time,

it was not just a voyage of discovery, it was a voyage of colonization, because they're going to establish a colony because it's where they're going to do their trade from. Yeah. And again, when you say colonization, that word now in our culture, especially in progressive circles,

has a negative connotation. Right. You're not saying it a negative, you're establishing a colony. Right. They were not going to take over and make everybody like them. They were going to set up a trading post

So they're going to build a little community. And in the community, they're going to have trade with the natives. And again, they're on this, they found the series of islands that are uninhabited by any other Europeans. And the goal of what they wanted was trade. And they're like, we can build a little post with a port. Our ships can come in. We can, from like our little fort, our communities, we can gather all the trade goods. We'll come.

We'll swap. We'll load up. We'll go. So they're not thinking colonization the way it's used today. They're going to build a colony for trade. purposes. But as they go to build, Columbus already knows, like, some of these dudes aren't good people. They go to another, like adjacent island. He says, we need to go back to the original island to get the men we left behind. He goes to the original island. And when he arrives,

he finds that the fort that they had built is now destroyed, burned to the ground. And he begins seeing the bodies of some of the men on the beach. And some of his guys or the other, the natives? Some of his men's bodies. And as he goes closer, they're all dead. And he goes closer and realizes they've been cannibalized. They've been eaten. And he's like, what just happened? So he finds some of the Taino tribe, and they're like, we told you.

Like there's another, because at first he's like, what did you do? And they're like, it was not us. We told you the other tribe. In fact, they actually came and they attacked our village as well, that they kidnapped some of our women and children. And we just, we aren't strong enough to get them back. And Columbus is like, you tell me where they are.

Like, I will solve this problem. The Taino joined Columbus. This is a big deal. Because when people talk about, Columbus committed genocide, first of all, was not genocide when the group of natives that he goes to war with already attacked and ate some of his men. Right? Like, hey man. Here's the deal.

If genocide is not an actual military conflict. But if you pick a war with someone who's bigger, tougher, and stronger than you and you get your butt kicked. That's not genocide. It's not their fault that you suck at war. And by the way, this can be applied to many modern things happening right now. Losing a war you started is not genocide. Oh, it's interesting thought. Yeah, let's just get that other way.

Losing a war you start is not genocide. Anyway, go ahead. Currently applicable. I see that. Currently applicable in some ways, yeah. But this is where he ends up, they continue on as the settlements going on, but they find were one of these, by the way, the village they were going after, the other native tribe that was there, they were known as the Caribes, which is where the word Caribbean comes

from. They were also known as the Canibs, which is where the word cannibal comes from. Yeah, I didn't know that. It's the origin of the word cannibal. Okay. Okay. So Columbus goes with the Taino, and by the way, the Tijuana are like, can we please come with you? Like the guys with the boom boom sticks, we're in, let's go with you.

So they go and they do, in this village, they win this conflict. And so for the survivors who were not killed from the Caribus tribe, the Caribus tribe, Columbus does say, okay, so all the survivors, they can be enslaved. And that's where people are like, he enslaved him. this is literally in the 1400s where there's only two options at the end of a war for the losing side. You die or your slaves? That was the only option. So he's not doing something uniquely evil.

He's literally doing what the entire world is doing. And this is not justified in a moral standpoint, but this is the reality. This is the world they live in. That's right. This is the only option. In fact, for all of Columbus's Four Voyages, he never approved the enslavement of anybody who was not captured and justified war. That's really important. Say that one more time.

He never approved the enslavement of anybody who was not captured and justified war. Fascinating. Okay? So, bro, which is the exact, like high school, the vibe you always get is this guy just rolls in, starts slaughtering innocent natives, taking, you know, just for personal wealth and acquisition and gain. It's like, this is why that book just blew me away. Is this literally like deprogramming from the matrix? And by the way, it's like all the stuff we're saying, this is from original documents.

Yeah. Right? Like, the people that were they. So Columbus also had a couple like medical doctors with them and they also kept journals. So like from the second voyage when they attacked the Caribus tribe, the tribe, when they conquer this village, they say there was 49 huts in the village and all the huts were locked from the outside. And they're like, that's curious.

Why are they locked from the outside? So they go and they begin to unlock and open these huts. And there were women on the inside. And Columbus and by the way, the doctor's there like, this is in their journal. They said the women were terrified when they saw us because like, we don't know who you are. but when they found out we were not going to eat them they were well relieved and they told us that the Kariba men treat them

with such cruelty that could scarcely be imagined that they eat the children that they bear to them. And these are the quote unquote genocided. These are the people that were genocided. Jeez. Right? So literally they were kidnapping women. They were impregnating them,

which how that probably, process goes, not voluntarily, and then they eat the children. And people like, I can't believe to commit a genocide. I'm like, you have no idea what the story is. Now, to jump ahead a little bit, so that's the second voyage, the colony's being set up, he goes back and he starts petitioning the king and queen, like, guys, I would love to be governor. Like, can I be please be governor? And he petitions and finally they're like, I don't think it's a good idea because you're Italian, but you're selling for the Spanish and our colony is a Spanish colony. I don't think they're going to look favorably on it. He petitions enough. They're like, fine, you can be

governor. He goes back. He's the governor. He's not really a good governor. But partly, one of the many problems he had, he was an explorer at heart. So he sets up these rules in place. And part of the rules were you cannot steal anything from the natives. They did not value gold. And so men were like, we want your gold. And they're like, we don't really care about it. And he says, you have to give them something of value in exchange for the gold. So like literally when people like, he's just doing this to get wealthy. There's so much more to that story, which not to digress in this point. So he has gone a lot discovering on his third voyage over there. He comes back to find out that some of these spaniards have begun enslaving, sexually assaulting, and even murdering some of these natives. Which he warned

against, as you said earlier. Hey man, you're sending some bad dudes. Right. Well, now he's the governor, and he already put laws in place that actually showed respect and decency for the natives. Because he was a Christian men. He finds out what they did and he gets the Spaniards that did it and he publicly executes them. Wow. Now, you can imagine if you're in a Spanish colony and you publicly execute Spanish people and they're like, who do you think you're Italian? That's right. So they lead a revolt. They actually imprison him, put him in chains. They sent him back before the King and Queen. He gets back and makes his appeal and explains what actually happened. And this is by the way, when the accusations come that he did all these evil things, it was made by the men that had

done those very things that had put him in chains and sent him back, which is also one of like the oldest tricks of the book you accuse your opponent of what you're guilty of. Right? You're like, you're not going to believe how bad this guy is. He did, well, that's what they sent to the king and queen. He gets back and tells the story. And they're like, oh, so they exonerate him. They pardon them of all those crimes.

But they're like, hey, so it's better if you're not governor anymore because like this, we need somebody else. So he's removed governorship, but he's funded on his last voyage. Anyway, the whole thing, when you study the narrative, you're like, it's not that he's a perfect guy because everyone's a sinner in need of a savior. he's just not guilty of the send you're accusing him today. Yeah, what they say he did. Yeah.

And this is also when his last voyage was actually a shipwreck. The Spanans from those colonies are so frustrated with them. He sends word like people on canoe, hey, we have a shipwreck, can you send a ship and recover us? And they, they like neglect him. They're like, nope, we don't like you. You're on your own. So he's like shipwreck.

I want to say it's like, I don't remember the details. I think it's like a year and a half. I need to look it up again. But he is there for a long time praying to be rescued. He's finally rescued, gets back home and ends up dying because of some of the hardness of what he dealt with. But his whole life narrative is so different than what people think today. In fact, even this idea that he really wanted to get wealthy is so misconstrued. I'm going to read a quote and then we'll move on to our second myth.

But, dude, again, we don't have time to talk about all the awesome stuff. So I didn't know that part of the Crusades were going on at the same time. Do you have the quote related to the Crusades? Yeah, I do. I've got it right here. So by the way, another myth for another podcast is, oh, look how evil the Christians were for the Crusades. Yeah. They just attacked the Muslims.

Right. You know, and you, I just, we don't have time to go into this. But essentially, no, that was largely defensive wars reclaiming after like, I think you said like 300. Over 500. Over 500. Yeah. Unprovoked Islamic attacks on these. So anyway, it's around that time that the Crusades are happening. The Christians are trying to retake Jerusalem.

Correct. Okay, I'm getting this right. So then, so what people say about Columbus is he just wanted golden money. So then this is a quote, okay? He requested to the queen, I guess. Okay, I'm going to read it, that all the prophets of this my enterprise may be sent in the conquest of Jerusalem. In other words, I don't want any of the money that have come from any of my explorations. Would you please give it to those guys that are trying to retake the lands that were taken from them by the Muslims? Is that right? Yes. So he was still going to make some profit, but he said, said everything above, because he was getting, and I don't know, it was like 10%. He said, everything above 10% that, like, I have, he said, can we take everything we're making and can we send this to go reclaim Jerusalem for Christ? Jeez. Okay. So, there you go.

Yeah. So myth number one. Like, it's totally nonsense. Yeah, totally nonsense. Okay. Now, this is the one we're going to, we hit, we're going to do our best to be brief on this because this is one that is arguably the biggest. or most prominent one,

Tim Barton, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and most of the founders, they were obviously deists, Tim. Obviously.

They were obviously deists. They did not want, they did not found, and did not want our nation, found it on or propagating Christian principles because obviously, Tim, all these guys were deists.

True, false. Totally fault. I don't have enough time to go through all of this. And honestly, like, we could do the entire pod on this one. And I don't even know if we're going to get to all

questions you have. I'm so sorry. Let me start with this one. This one, and actually, Trinity, I think, yeah, I think we have pictures. Can you go to the maxims of George Washington? And can you put up the maxims of George Washington? So there's a guy named Schroeder who actually did the collection. When they did the first volume of Washington's writings, it was a guy named Jared Sparks. And so this guy, 1855, his name was Schroeder, he took through all of the letters of Washington, he said, here's the really cool things he said on these different issues. So here it is, that's 1855, that's a political and social, moral, and religious maxims of George Washington. So they said, here are the most significant things George Washington ever said or dead.

Trinity go to the next one. So you see section four is Christianity. Now, the fourth section was actually the religious maxims. So we already are identifying his religious maxims. That's Christianity, right? That's what we're talking about. But when you start this, it's actually all of these things that you see there are introductions to George Washington based on people that knew him. So, for example, that first line, Trinity, click that next one for me. It says, underlined underneath that. Well, you click on that button for me, Trinity. Okay, so James Sewell, click again, he was a firm believer in the Christian religion.

Go to the next one Trinity. And these are people who personally knew him. Correct. So, for example, like Chief Justice Marshall, he became the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. He was a soldier with George Washington served under him during the Revolution. He said he was a sincere believer in the Christian faith. The next one is Elias Boudinot. He was the president of Congress.

George Washington worked for him during the revolution, right? He ends up being a judge after the revolution. He said the general was a Christian. After them, you have Jay Smith. Okay, let me do it. I just keep on saying this. This is why, like when I read this stuff, it feels like getting deep programmed with the Matrix.

I'm not joking. Everything I heard for the first 35 years of my life were Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin were D.S. And by the way, I already know what you're going to say in a few minutes. You're going to blow people's minds on Benjamin Franklin. Yeah. Like blow people's minds. Yeah.

And are you going to read the thing from, Washington's granddaughter. Yes, I will. Yes, I will. You're about to stink and blow people's minds. But keep going on this. Okay. Okay.

So, Jay Smith, I was actually a pastor. Or no, sorry, that's Devereux, Devereux, Baha'Las pastor. Jay Smith was another one of soldiers. He said, was not ashamed of this Christian profession. The next guy, the Reverend Devereaux Jaret. He was one of the pastors of the churches were Washington attended during the American Revolution.

He was a professor of Christianity. The last one, Jared Sparks, he's the guy that compiled all of the writings of George Washington. He said he was a Christian in faith and in practice. Wow. Now, the reason. I point this out, and this is the original print of that 1855, this is the book. Every single person that knew George Washington says that about him. Well, there is a modern edition that was done.

This is done in the 1990s, and this one, it is done by a professor. And this one, when they get to, Trinity go to the next one, instead of introducing the religious section by the guys that knew him, no, they don't do that. This is the way he introduces the religious section. You see religious Maxims. So wait, this is the same source content? So yes, the book is the same, the introduction to section, instead of it being written by people that knew George Washington. It's written by some modern professor. It's written by a professor who, by the way, this professor was also a historian in Mount Vernon for a little bit. So this is like a very noted professor. Look at the last paragraph. And Trinity, wait just a second, and then when we put it up, it says, a product of the enlightenment,

Washington's terms for God included divine author of our blessed religion, divine providence, and almighty being who rules over the universe. Trinity click that for me. What? Like many deists. That's it. Are you kidding me? Washington viewed the Supreme Being

is nervous here and protective of all, etc. Now, the reason again this matters. That's what I always heard. Right. That's what I've always heard. This is the modern narrative. Yeah. It's just not the real narrative.

Bro. Okay? So let me walk through this more. So Washington, and I can tell so many stories. But real quickly, these are some of the first three volumes of the writings of Washington. So when Washington becomes the command of the Continental Army,

it is June 19, 1775 when he gets that title when it's signed off. So this is the very first general order he ever issues. Okay, will you hold that? And then can you just can actually, I think on this one, just read, and now I got to see it, sorry. You can. Just read that. section right there because we'll come back to others in a minute the general most earnestly requires

and expects a due observance of those articles of war established for the government of the army which forbid profane cursing swearing and drunkenness and in like manner requires and expects of all officers and soldiers not engaged on actual duty a punctual attendance on divine service is that church services that's church let me let me just pause for second so this is the very first order washington gives as commander of the military. This is his very first general order. The first ever. The very first one. Okay. And notice how it starts. Now, by starts, it's part of what we're reading, because there's a couple paragraphs before that. But it starts in the sense of this is the first thing he tells the troops. He says, hey, oh, go ahead. You going to finish that sentence? So he said,

a punctual attendance on divine service, so church services, quote, to implore the blessings of heaven upon the means used for our safety and defense. Okay. Dude. That's the very first order. Okay. So he acknowledges, guys. If he's a deist, he's real bad at it.

Right. He's real bad at it. Make sure you go to church, guys. But we can't afford to curse. We can't afford to get drunk. Anything that might offend God we can't afford to do because we have to have God's help or we're not going to succeed. Okay, jump forward.

And he gives hundreds of general orders. I've just chosen some that are easy. and really fun. So this general order is one, go to the one that is May 2nd, 1778. That is the general order that he gave at Valley Forge. That's what he gives before they leave. Just read some of that general order for us. The commander in chief directs that divine service, so church services, be performed every Sunday at 11 o'clock in those brigades to which there are chaplains, those which have none to attend the places of worship nearest to them. Hang on. So those who have none,

if you don't have a chaplain, then you attend the closest place that has a chaplain. It is expected that officers of all ranks will by their attendance set an example to their men. Dude, this is amazing. He's saying if you're going to be an officer in the, well, I guess it wasn't the United States Army

at that time. What would they have called? It was a continental army. Continental Army. He's going, you've got to go to church. Yes. You got to go to church. Oh, it gets better. Okay. While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. It's amazing. Okay.

To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian. Fascinating. Okay. What is more important to George Washington than being a patriot? A Christian. Being a Christian. Dude.

That's incredible. Okay. Now, this is the general. I mean, Josh. And those are directly his words. Correct. These are the first two volumes of Washington. And again, like, this is what's crazy.

Nobody even disputes this. Those are his general orders given to the military. And he's like, guys, what's more important than you being a patriot is you being a Christian. Jeez, man. But we're like, no, he didn't really believe in God. Again, like, it's nuts, all the things we say. Let me, hey, Trinity. You can be a grand dollar thing because I really want it.

You teased me and now I'm dying to hear what you're going to say. So let me show you one more, Trinity. Will you go to the one that's George Washington? it shows a picture of him in battle, and it's right after, right there. So this is George Washington in 1778. He writes General Thomas Nelson Jr. a letter. Now, Thomas Joe... Is this a real picture?

That is a real painting, yes. I'm teasing. I'm sorry. I was like, Josh, yeah, yeah. I'm in my history nerd moment. I didn't know how to play along. So Washington is friends with Thomas Nelson Jr., another guy from Virginia, signs a declaration, then joins the Continental Army,

he becomes a general, and George Washington is writing his friend. And he's like, bro, God is moving. Probably. And then he said, let's kick this pig. Sorry, go ahead. I'll stop being an idiot. He says, God is moving so clearly that it's almost impossible to miss it. Trinity, go to the next one. So here's what he says. This is from a letter. The Hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this that he must be worse than an infidel to lax faith. more than wicked that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations. So just right there, he says, God's hand has been so obvious. If you can't acknowledge God's hand, you have to be either a non-believer or wicked to not acknowledge God's hand because it's been so obvious. But

his next line is my favorite. But it will be time enough for me to turn preacher when my present appointment ceases, and therefore I shall add no more on the doctrine of providence. Wow. George Washington is like, Josh, I've seen it out of miracles. I could become a pastor. Wow. But for now, I'm going to focus on winning the war like my present appointment. Again, like these are not even disputed letters, but people, we have made a generalized belief off of broad information without any specific detail. So people make a lot of claims without having information.

So here's the last one just for Washington. So George Washington had an adopted granddaughter. Yeah, dude, I'm dying to hear what you're about to say. Her name was, dying to hear this. Her name was the only part, Custis. The guy that compiled the very first writings of George Washington was Jared Sparks. And as he's compiling the writing, she says, Nellie. You said this is his adopted daughter?

Adopted granddaughter. Okay. So Martha had two kids from a previous marriage when she and George married because Martha was a widower. She had four kids two died, two survived. She marries George Washington. Her son ends up getting married. They have kids. Daughter ends up getting married.

And let me think. I'm trying to remember which one. I think it was a son died. And then the son-in-law died. And so it's the daughter. I don't remember. It's either daughter-in-law, the daughter that had the kids. There was four kids.

But the husband died, and she had two kids under two, and then a kid of like, you know, four and six or something. And George and Martha are like, that's hard for a single mom. Why don't you let us help you? So she says, if you can watch the two youngest for me, that's great. So two youngest go and live with Georgia Martha. So Nellie Park Custis is the youngest, and I think it was daughter-in-law, but that had the kids. She lives with Georgia Martha at Mount Vernon for 20 years.

And so Jared Sparks writes her after George Washington dies and says, so you saw him the last 20 of his life. What can you tell me about his faith? And so this is a letter where she writes Jared Sparks. And in this letter, she says, well, what I remember is every morning he would go down to his steady, he would close the door, and for an hour he would stand there for his quiet time. He would read his Bible. I don't know what else he did, but I know I wasn't allowed to interrupt him.

It was very, like his quiet time was very important to him. I know we were devout and going to church. He took me every single Sunday. we never missed a Sunday. And she starts giving anecdotes. And one of the antidotes, she says that we had an aunt that was very sick that came to Mount Vernon because they thought she can get better help here because they were more poor. George was more established.

And so the doctor came over. She was laying on a couch. George came in one day she was sick. He goes out to do work on the farm, comes back. She's dead on the couch. And she says, George Washington goes over, kneels down, lay hands on her that God would heal her. What?

She says this is in her letter? Literally in the letter. Okay? Which maybe, I mean, I know we're on time frame for the pod. Afterwards, you gotta read the whole letter. It's amazing. She's praying like acts to. He's like doing acts to acts for stuff.

Okay. Yes. Okay. So she concludes, and she gives several more like anecdote examples of what she personally saw and witnessed. She concludes a letter. Is it necessary that anyone should certify George Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity.

As well may we question his patriotism as his Christianity. Oh my gosh. Okay. So she's saying like, hey man, you'd be more credible to say he wasn't a patriot. Right. That George Washington wasn't a patriot than that he wasn't a Christian. Right. That's amazing.

And again, these are the people that knew him personally. And one of the problems today is, like I've heard you guys talking about it before. or kind of like the snobbery of the generation. And we're here. And we're like, oh, we're so much smarter, we're so much better, whatever else. We look back today and so often we try to input them things that is not evidence in any of their writings.

You read their writings, and you're like, bro, if literally you have a quiet time every morning, you go to church, you're praying, laying hands of people that God raises them up from the dead, you're telling all your soldiers, like it's better than being a Patriots being a Christian. Like, how are you concluding that he's anything but this? It doesn't make sense.

And he's only one. We could go through Jefferson or Franklin, and I know for the sake of time, we probably need to abbreviate this. Yeah. Give me one, like one, maybe one example each. Jefferson. And by the way, I think we're both acknowledging on Jefferson and Franklin, we don't know, right? And I don't think either of them were Christians at the end of their life.

Oh, interesting. Okay. I don't. And there's reason for both of them. But both of them, it's because. because from their own writings, they viewed Jesus as the greatest prophet sent by God. They did not view him as a divine savior, where Jesus clearly says, right, that I am the only way to the Father.

So as a Christian, we're like, no, you got to believe in Jesus. That's kind of a core prerequisite. So I don't think where they land in their life, I wouldn't argue they're Christian, but they're not who they're thought of being today. Yeah. Give me maybe one example. Because what people, what I think, the vibe I kind of got was, hey, man, Jefferson and Franklin, really they were like, man, all religions are kind of the same. I'm really out on all of them.

And then honestly, they were kind of hostile to Christianity. That's kind of the vibe I picked up in high school and college. Yeah. So would you look something up for me? I'm going to tell part of the story. And I want you to look this up. So what two books did Thomas Jefferson recommend students in Washington, D.C. should use to learn to read. Okay. Okay. Now, the reason I say this, So George Washington, not George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, too, I'm trying to talk about. Did you find that answer? Just let me know when you do. So Thomas Jefferson, when he becomes the president, he is the vice president under John Adams.

When the Capitol building is built 1800, he's vice president for like three months before it becomes president. He's the one that approves church to be held in the Capitol. He then three months later becomes president. He attends church in the Capitol religiously, four, eight years doesn't miss. But also, as the president of the United States, Washington, D.C. is the District of Columbia. It's a federal territory. They didn't even have a mayor to like the 1970s. So the president and Congress was in charge of everything that happened there. And by default, especially at Jefferson's time, he was a more or less honorary school board president.

Like they were like, hey, Mr. President, how do you want us to handle us? So he was assigning, delegating who does what, literally for the school of Washington, D.C. And so he said, here's the thing. He wrote the reading plan. Here's a thing that when our kids learn to read, here's the two books they should use. Did you find what it was? Man, this is just a generic, like, AI overview. No, no, no, no.

There's two specific books. I'm getting Aesop's Fables and Robinson Crusoe. Well, he said every kid should read those at some point in their life. No, no, no. But learning how to read. Yeah, see, it didn't not give them anything. Okay, so let me ask Grock, what two books did Thomas Jefferson say that every kid should use to read

when he was the president in Washington, D.C.? The two books he said, and I'm going to wait for G. this up to confirm this, I mean, just so you can see it. He said every student should learn to read with the Bible and Isaac Watson book. Now, it's amazing. Right. The reason this matters is, again, when people are like, well, Jefferson, like, he didn't even believe in the Bible. It cut out everything he didn't believe in. It's such a misnomer for who Jefferson actually was. And the reason is, because when you go back to Jefferson, hang on, I scroll down past it. Okay, that's the one. Yeah, that's right there. Yeah. That's the first thing it said.

The Bible and Isaac Watts, Psalms, Hems, and Spiritual Songs. Okay. So that's what Jefferson said. That's what Thomas Jefferson as the president? Is that while he's president of the United States? He's recommending that every kid should learn to read with a hymn book. And a Christian Bible.

And the Bible. So that's not the vibe I got coming up. No. And this wasn't like, this wasn't when people were like, but yeah, Jefferson cut out of anything he didn't believe in. So this is the first printing of the Jefferson Bible. It came out of 1904. Yeah.

Jefferson never printed a Bible. Okay. So why do we call it a Bible? In fact, if you look at the title of this book, it doesn't even save Jefferson Bible. The Life Immorals of Jesus of Nazareth. Now, dude, this was, honestly, you ruined a sermon illustration for me.

Because I've been using the Jefferson Bible. He just cut out, you know, all the stuff he didn't like forever. And, like, honestly, you go into this that actually that's not what he was doing. No. Now, again, this is not a defense of him, like being a Christian.

Yeah. It's just we're misrepresenting what he did. So this is the place where he actually hand writes every verse that he uses in this. And if you actually go through and read all these, he actually does talk about heaven and hell and angels and demons. He talks about miraculous things. Now he doesn't include all the miracles.

Unequivocally, he cut things out. But Jefferson, and he did this in 1820, he dies in 1826. The last six years of his life, he said, I wanted to study the moral teachings of Jesus because there's no greater moral teachers ever left. So again, this is not like advocating he's a Christian, but it's pointing out that even what this is

is not what people think it is today. Similar with Franklin. Like again, Franklin, I don't argue as a Christian, but Franklin was a huge promoter of the Christian faith pragmatically knowing the benefit it gave. I didn't tell you I was going to do this. Can I throw a caveat at you? Can I throw it and just see what you do?

Yeah. So this is, so one quote that people used to say, hey, the founders did not want our nation legislating from a Christian perspective. or Christian principles. Is Jefferson quote in a letter to Thomas Cooper? Are you familiar? I'm sure you're familiar with this.

February 10th, 1814. And apparently he wrote Christianity neither is nor ever was a part of the common law. What do you think? That's totally incorrect. You're saying the quote's incorrect or Jefferson was incorrect? What Jefferson is saying there is incorrect, but also, so Josh, anytime I hear something like this, the number one question I ask is, so what does the rest of the letter say? and what conversation were they having, right?

The questions I always ask is, is it true, how do we know, what's the source, what's the context, is there more to the story? Because right now you're looking going, oh, well, that's so clear. So here's the problem. Jefferson also criticized the law schools of the day saying that they read Blackstone's

commentaries and laws of England like Muslims read the Quran. Like it's their only book, it's all they read. Well, why does that matter? Because Blackstone goes through dozens of pages saying Christianity is the foundation. of common law. Okay.

So it's fine that Jefferson says that. It doesn't mean that's true in America. In fact, Justice James Wilson, who signed the declaration and the Constitution was the original chief justice in the Supreme Court and was the professor at one of the first law schools. It was the second law school in America and Pennsylvania. He actually taught that Christianity is impartial with the common law and that like twin sisters, they run together. So Jefferson can have that opinion. But again, I would want to read the rest of the letter to see if there's even more context. Like, is he saying some people say this and like maybe it's right or wrong?

Because I think that I can point out of the things that Jefferson wrote that would be contradictory to that idea. But even if Jefferson believed that, I would say he's wrong and other founding fathers disagree with him on that very moment, which is why of the founding fathers, they debated all the time. And generally healthy debates, right? But like, you, I mean, you say on the pot all the time, like, guys, we're big boys. It's okay if you disagree. That's right. The founding father was totally big boys and disagreed a lot. And the problem is today, people look at like Jefferson and they're like,

like, well, if he said it all the other founding fathers, and I'm like, no, no, no, no. Jefferson was far more of the anomaly of the founding fathers than he was in step with the majority of the founding fathers. Yeah, I want to get into that. So on Franklin, and dude, what was really interesting about your book is really how you kind of trace how, man, his more like seemingly overtly deistic or things that sound a little more hostile Christianity were earlier in his life. And then apparently later in his life, I mean, you were reading.

something to me right before we started recording that was like insane. Like he was rapid fire off the top of his head quoting in a recommend like in an authoritative manner. Right. Like New Testament, big streams. Dozens of verses. I'm going to read one thing that I grabbed from your book. And again, what's so great about it is all source quotes. So Benjamin Franklin's speech to Continental Congress. Okay. So like this is just one example. Like, dude, these guys are, this guy's not like a Theist is just like, ah, all religions are the same, and Christianity is very great. So I think you're, is this the one from June 28, 1787? It starts, I have lived, sir, a long time.

Yes. So this is the one actually at the constitutional invention. This is the one where, as they're trying to ride the Constitution, everything is falling apart. And it's so bad, like, delegates are leaving. George Washington's like, guys, please stay. We've got to figure it out. Franklin's the old guy, gets up and gives the longest speech he gave. So this is, after the revolution, we're trying to ride the Constitution. It's not working.

And Franklin's like, I have a suggestion. And this is what he says. I have lived, sir, a long time. And the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth that God governs in the affairs of men. And if, now, for listeners, if you don't know your Bibles, you might not pick up on what's happening here. He's about a quote, a bunch of New Testament passages without citations.

So for your Bible nerds, listen to the biblical language he's using. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid. By the way, that's fire. That's bars right there. We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings, talking about the Bible, that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. And I also believe that without his concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of the Tower of Babel. And we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword down to future ages. Now, I'm just going to tell you, man, those are not the words of a guy.

No. Who just thinks, I'm not into the Jesus thing. And I don't like the Bible. And I don't believe that. That's not what that is. No. So my favorite thing to point to is the 1776 Pennsylvania State Constitution. If people go to Section 10, in the 1776 Pennsylvania State Constitution, Franklin helps write that part.

And Franklin says, before anybody can hold office, they need to say and agree to this statement or you can't hold office. Let me read it. Okay. I'm skipping ahead. Let me read it. Okay, so let me set this, okay, so this is the Pennsylvania State Constitution, Benjamin Franklin and James Smith, another signer of the declaration, right? Correct. Okay. They help author this. Correct. So this is for listeners, this is going to blow your mind. So we're going to get to this here in a second. You have no idea. I don't care who you are.

You have no idea how much Christian sort of standards were written into all the, you know, many of the founding documents. So Pennsylvania State Constitution, Ben Franklin helps author this. This is what set up what I'm about to read. So, yeah, you can go through so much the Constitution because there's so many God references, religious liberty references, worship references along the lines. But when we separate from Great Britain, all of the early colonies had British colonial charters. Well, now those are done because we're not British colonies anymore. So every state has to do their own state constitution.

And the majority of founding fathers end up spending time in their states advocating, encouraging, or participating in writing these state constitutions. Franklin is one of the guys submitting suggestions, helping literally write the Pennsylvania state constitution. This is one of the things he suggested. So this is, okay, this is, this blew my mind, okay? And each member of the legislature before he takes his seat shall make and subscribe the following declaration.

In other words, he's saying, in order for you to serve in public office in Pennsylvania, you must be willing to take the following oath. And this is what he says. I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good, and the punisher of the wicked, and I acknowledge the scriptures of the old and new testaments to be given by divine inspiration. Are you kidding me? Like, Ben Franklin is writing this in the Pennsylvania State Constitution and saying, you can't serve in public office unless you take that oath.

Right. Now, the next line, he says, and no other religious litmus tests shall be required. Now, also it's a big deal because people look at the Constitution and they're like, you can't have a religious litmus test, right. But you've misunderstood even what they thought that meant. Because back then, a religious litmus test used to be like, you had to prove you were an Anglican. You had to prove you were a Presbyterian or a Baptist. And they're like, no, no, no, no. You just have to prove that you believe in a general principles of God and morals and eternity in the Bible. And then you're good to go. That's Franklin. The least religious founding father. That's insane. Okay. All right. Let's move on to the next one.

because these kids sort of build. Well, hey, before we get back to the episode, I want to tell you about something coming up at Lake Point that we're really excited about this summer. We're hosting at the movies, a four-week sermon series where we'll use movie clips and stories to illustrate powerful biblical truths.

It's one of the most fun and creative experiences we do all year here at Lake Point, and it's designed for the entire family. And so every weekend at our physical locations will feature unique movie-themed experiences, fun characters in the lobby for both kids and adults, incredible worship and practical teaching from the Word of God and of course popcorn and drinks for everyone.

So whether you are here and maybe you're a long-time churchgoer, someone who's been away from church for a while, or maybe you're looking for an easy way to invite a friend, neighbor or coworker to church, this right here is the perfect series for you. At the Movies is an in-person only event and begins July 11 and 12th and continues through August 1 and 2. And so if you're in the Dallas area,

we'd love for you to join us at one of our campuses. You can find service times, locations, and more information by texting the word ATM. to 20411. Now, let's get back to the conversation. Now, this, so I want you to respond to something that went crazy viral. So Katie Couric, who, by the way, tried to have me on our podcast recently. Katie Couric had this, this was like last month.

And honestly, dude, it actually discouraged me. A bunch of my pastor friends liked this reel, okay, which was not a great. But Trinna, will you go and play this? Because this is like, whoa, wait. So this is like exactly, and go back at the beginning. This is like exactly the perfect encapsulation of what I grew up, high school and college, hearing and feeling. All right, let's go ahead.

I would love to get your take on the rise of Christian nationalism in this country and around the world. The University of Massachusetts at Amherst recently released a poll that shows how Americans are feeling with the 250. with the 250th anniversary of our country. And there's a huge divide between Democrats and Republicans on the extent to which the U.S. should be a Christian country. Nearly 80 percent of Republicans believe the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation. 72 percent believe the government should advocate Christian values. 54 percent believe the U.S. should be declared a Christian nation.

And I thought this was really disturbing. It's very disturbing. Another Christian ideas are so disturbing. Institute poll found that 56% of Republicans qualify as either adherents or sympathizers of Christian nationalism. We pause for Trinity real quick because we're going to go on and you're going to respond to the next thing. But for people who are listening, whenever you hear the phrase Christian nationalism, that is 99.9% of the time it's a scare label that's intentionally designed to stigmatize Christians advocating for their values in the public square. So essentially, I'll just shoot you really straight. If you put in front of me and, hey, man, your two options are atheistic globalism,

like woke, secular paganism, or Christian nationalism, I'm going to go, well, heck yes, I'm that one. So 99% of the time Christian nationalism is a scare label that what it does is it is sort of, it nonverbally says, I as a secular person am allowed to advocate for my values in the public square, but you as a Christian are not allowed to advocate for your values in the public square because that's scary. Christian nationalism. So really when you hear that, if somebody goes, hey Josh, you're a Christian nationalist, I'm like, well, I'm a Christian and I love my nation. If that makes me a Christian nationalist, okay, I don't care, whatever. But so this is what she's saying here. I want you to know the play that's being run on you. People stigmatize to divide is what they, so let's stigmatize the

phrase so that we can keep you from advocating for your vows in the public square. Which, by the way, we're just gone, well, God's commands are not burdensome. That's actually what's good for people, societies, that sort of families, all this. So we want that stuff. So now watch what this professor says, and this is what you're going to respond to. What's going on here? So, Katie, you've called me professor three times already, and I'm going to take that as a license to make a really incredibly boring academic point, which is that, or maybe it's not so boring, maybe it's more fundamental. You also can't do democracy without history. So those views that people hold, some of them are views about the past, and they're wrong.

The United States was not, I mean, there are issues on which you can be right and wrong. is one where you can be wrong. The United States was not, in fact, founded on Christian principles in any sense. It's simply not true. Pause. So I would like you to respond to. Hey, hey, Trinity, will you pull up that letter of Thomas Jefferson, excuse me, of John Adams, to Thomas Jefferson. So the picture of at the very beginning, it shows John, that's the one. Okay. So in 1813. Oh, we're going right into it. Let's go. So John Adams writes Thomas Jefferson a letter. This is a late in life. They're becoming friends again. They had some hardships along the. way. And so he writes him a letter.

John, by the way, John Adams, one of the founders of Declaration of Independence, one of the founders of our nation. Correct. First vice president, second president, one of the most significant, in fact, for 250 years that we're celebrating, he's the guy responsible for so much of it. He's the one that nominated that George Washington would be our commander in chief. He's like, literally, he's, his fingerprints on almost everything in the

American founding, super important founding father. But he writes Thomas Jefferson, he's like, remember four years ago when we were together, we were so young, ambitious, we had so much disagreement. we had all these issues, he said, but when we got together as a group, in the midst of our frustration, we finally found common ground. Now, the letter's like four and a half pages. I just pulled one sentence from it, but I would encourage people, go read it, because there's literally paragraphs on this. He says, the general principles upon which the father to choose independence were the general principles of Christianity. That's amazing. So let me just,

let me contrast these things. The quote from the professor with Katie Hurray is the United States was not in fact founded on Christian principles in any sense that's simply not true, then John Adams, who founded the nation, is saying the general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christian. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. So, and Trinity, you'll go with me for a second.

So the reason people think this is, if you look at the founding fathers, we're often told, hey, right, these guys were largely secular. They were atheists, agonaxia. That's what we were largely told. We click on that picture and just kind of walk with me as we do this. So this is the famous painting of the Declaration. Well, that's not the first time they met. The first time they met, that's the painting of the first time they met.

Really? That painting is known as the first prayer in Congress. Bro, these guys are on their knees. Okay. Praying. Right. Like, literally, if you've ever been to a prayer meeting, that's what it looks like. Okay.

So John Adams actually writes Abigail a letter and says, Abigail, when we first met, the very first motion was made by Mr. Thomas Cushing. See, he's the guy over on the left side. And he said, when Thomas Cushing's made this motion, the motion was that we should begin with prayer. And there was some discussion. Finally, we agreed we'd bring in the local pastor of the Reverend Jacob DeShay. He's the guy behind the pulpit.

And he led us in prayer. So this is literally in the records of Congress. Now, when he shows up, it's the next morning. So this painting is from September 7, 1774. But the records of Congress identified, the first thing they did that morning is open with prayer. And then there's a gap in the schedule. And the next thing that happens is more than two hours later. Now, why would that be?

because the opening prayer lasted for two hours. They prayed for two hours. The guys who were there. That's chills down my spine. The guys who were there, literally, it's in their journals, it's in their writings. But John writes Abigail and says, Abigail, when we first met Thomas, rather Jacob DeShay, he comes up to pray and he opens the book of common prayer, which was the Anglican prayer book written back in the 1600s.

Still used today, by the way. Still used today. And he began reading some of the prayers, but then he broke out an extemporary prayers. and it was so moving that actually one of the guys there said it was so moving, even the stern Quakers had tears running down their cheeks because God was moving. In this extemporary prayer, somebody suggested they should read the Bible. And so in the Angling the Book of Common Prayer, it also has chapters as scribe for every day of the years. It's a Bible reading plan.

So they read the chapters. And John says, Abigail, it was as if God himself had ordained. And this is all the letter. It says, if God himself had ordained that to be read that morning. And this is his quote to Abigail. He says, Abigail, I must beg you to. read that psalm, read the 35th Psalm to your friends, read it to your father. Psalm 35 is one of the Psalms that David writes when Saul's chasing him, David's fling, and he says, God, I've done nothing

and he seeks my destruction, Lord, you rise up, be my shield, my buckler, my strong right arm. And John says, Abigail, you must remember that as this is happening, we had just found out the night before the British have surrounded Boston, that they're caninating, firing their cannons in the Boston, which also then, like, it's even logical when they meet, they're like, I think we should pray. Like, we're literally under attack from the most powerful. military in the world, we should have a time of prayer. But then this prayer turns into Bible study. They're reading Psalm 35. And John says, Abigail, you've got to read this. Well, literally the guys who are there all kept journals. So they all document this. But if you

keep going, and you can find this in the letters of John and Abigail, John writes Abigail another letter. And then his letter says, Abigail, we've appointed a continental fast. The continental Congress calls a nation to a day of prayer and fasting. He continued. He said, millions be upon their knees at once before their great creator imploring his forgiveness and blessings, his smile on American Council in Arms. So John Adams saying Abigail, this is going to be amazing when millions of Americans are praying. Well, there's only three million comments at the time, but he's saying, no, no, everybody is going to pray in this. And just for the fun sake of this, will you skip ahead to the one that shows John Adams by himself right there at this desk? Okay. So John Adams,

after this day of prayer and fasting, it's a couple months later, he writes Abigail, and he says, Abigail, it is amazing the things that are happening right now. And he goes through this list in this letter. And the letter is October 26, 1777. So this is now months have gone by. But he says, Abigail, he says, first of all, like Colonel Smith and his men, the British attack, they repelled him. And he goes through all these things that shouldn't have happened when you fight the most powerful military in the world. And they did. But the reason I love this letter is the last thing he identifies. He says, we just destroyed a 64-gun British man of worship and a 20-gun British man of warship. Now, that doesn't sound impressive that we're blowing up like their naval vessels.

It's impressive when you realize we didn't have a Navy yet. Golly. So the, when we separate from Great Britain, all of their naval vessels are with them. We don't have a Navy. So we, we did have businessmen who had like shipping vessels. So we took whatever, whatever vessels we had, we took whatever cannons we could find and we'd, we'd outfit them on those shipping vessels. The Smithsonian Museum of American History in Washington, D.C. has one of the very first ships of the American Navy. Josh, this is one of the first ships in the American Navy. It's called the Gunboat Philadelphia. Are you

that thing? That's it. Took down a you said a 20 gun? So it was a 64 gun British Man of War ship and a 20 gun. Now that's not the actual one from the battle because the one from the battle doesn't exist anymore. But that's one of, they say that's one of the very first ships in the American Navy. So we had stuff like that.

That's what we're fighting with. They had 64 gun armada. And you have to ask a question like, so did you row really fast in the direction? Like how are you pulling this off? And this was the point John Adams wrote Abigail a letter after this where he says, Abigail, I was eating dinner at a tavern and there were men eating dinner behind me and they were talking about how does this happen? And one of the men said this as his explanation, it appears to me the

eternal son of God is operating powerfully against the British nation. So not only did the founding fathers recognize that Jesus was part of the story, the American citizens did, Trinity, go to the one that the three guys, past this, the three guys at the end, right there. So when the American Revolution ends, and this is to put a bow on the Katie Curp clip. Those three guys in the left is John Jay, the middle is John Adams, the rights of Benjamin Franklin. They're the three guys that signed the peace treaty that ends the American Revolution.

This is the peace treaty. It's called the Peace Treaty of Paris. It's on display in Washington, D.C. On the left, you see there's four signatures. The top one with the ribbon is David Hartley, the British ambassador. Then you have John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay. Now, Josh, this is a document that ends the American Revolution,

brings peace to the United States and Great Britain and establishes America as a free and independent nation. Okay, the top right Trinity, click that next, button. Look at the title of this document in the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity. Wow. Trinity. Wow. Good job Trinity. Well play. But here's here's interesting. Kate, did you know we became a nation name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit? Never heard that. Literally before this moment. And this would be my question. Like, hey, Josh, how many textbooks have you seen that in? The document that made America a nation.

So right there. So that's insane. So when people are like, no, we're not a Christianation. And like the guy, the professor says, well, like, it's obvious we know this. What document are you basing it on? Because literally, the very first motion of the first meeting was open with prayer. The most famous painting of the first continental Congress is them in prayer. Like, you start tracking through this. These were not secular guys. These were people that knew if God wasn't part of the story, we were never going to succeed. In fact, so much so that is we're celebrating independence, right? Right now, happy 250? That's a document that made us a free and impennaation. Now, obviously, we're celebrating the Declaration.

In the name of the Trinity, that's insane. Right. In my entire life, I've never heard that. So let me give, uh, for people, I'm going to pull something up real quick. Now, I, I know I've already run us down the clock a long way. We're fine. We're going to keep on, man. It's America 250. How often are we going to do this? So, uh, I'm going to, I'm going to give some other examples. So first of all, that more than anything else, this is what you guys book, like just blew me. I mean, literally, you're, you're tossing out 10, 15 quotes. there's hundreds of pages of original source quotes. There's over a thousand footnotes back to original documents.

Okay, so I'm just going to give a couple others. So for somebody that's like, hey, man, our nation was not in, I'm going to give the original quote that went mega viral from a professor in the United States on Katie Couric, all right? That America was not in any sense, he said, found on Christian principles. I'll give a couple others just from your book. Again, John Quincy Adams, the founding father, son of the founding father, John Adams, personally knew most of the founders. He too recognized they were predominantly Christian declaring, and this is a very important. a direct source quote. From the day of the declaration, the people of the North American Union and of its constituent states were associated bodies of civilized men and Christians.

They were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the gospel, which they nearly all acknowledged as the rules of their conduct. Can we pause for a second? Because that would be like you're Jefferson and Franklin, saying like the rules of the gospel, that is Christianity. So not all of them were Christian, but nearly all of them. There's a couple exceptions, but the overwhelming majority were professors of Christian. And that's what these, the guys who were actually there are saying that. Okay. I'll give some more. In 1854, the U.S. bro, this like, this kind of stuff is like, I mean, seriously, you just feel like I've been lied to my whole life. In 1854, the U.S. House Judiciary Committee, this is the official governing body of the United States.

The U.S. House Judiciary Committee similarly affirmed, quote, Christianity was the religion of the founders of the Republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants. This is the U.S. House Judiciary Committee in 1854. attorney, will you throw up that screenshot of the National Call to Prayer? Okay, so this is like one of the call, you have this in your book. This is one of the calls. This is the original document, original language, National Calls to Prayer. I quote, these calls to prayer were not bland, vague, or deistic. They were explicitly Christian.

For example, and this is it. In March 1776, the founders asked the country to observe, the founders asked the country to observe a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer that we may, quote, appease his righteous displeasure, and through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness. I'm going to give just a couple others. These are the ones that blew my mind the most.

Again, we already read the Pennsylvania State Constitution. You couldn't serve in public office in Pennsylvania without swearing allegiance to the old and New Testaments in Jesus Christ. This is the same thing. This is the Delaware State Constitution at the founding of our nation. Okay. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house or appointed to any office or place of trust shall make and subscribe the following declaration to wit. I, blank, do profess faith in God the father and in Jesus Christ his only son. And the Holy Ghost, one God blessed forevermore. And I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration. You couldn't serve in public office in Delaware. without making this. Okay, just imagine. This is one more. This is Massachusetts. Massachusetts state constitution, again, 1780. So this is four years after the founding of our nation.

But worth saying in 1780, so several of states, it took them several years to figure out the wording, but partly also, because in some of these states, there's active war raging. And so, like, in their capital cities where they were meeting, they're like, we can't meet right now. There's literally, it's filled with British soldiers in war. And so these are still considered the original state constitutions, even though they came a little after 70, 70, because that's the first time they can get together and figure it out. Okay. Interesting. Okay. So this one, written with help of declaration signers, Sam Adams, John Hacock, Robert Treat Payne, and John Adams,

as well as Constitution signer Nathaniel Gorham. Okay. So this is, again, you have to take this oath to serve a public office in Massachusetts in 1780. Any person chosen governor, lieutenant governor, counselor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust shall before he proceed to execute the district. duties of his place or office make and subscribe the following declaration. I, blank, do declare that I believe the Christian religion and have a firm persuasion of his truth. And then you get

Katie Couric spouting off. We're not Christian guys. Not in any sense where we found it. Okay. And then I'll do one last one. There's so many things. These are just things absolutely blew me away. So all I'm going to do right here is read the prayer of the First Continental Congress. That's all this is. I'm sure you know where I'm going here. This is the prayer, First Continental Congress. O Lord, our heavenly father, high and mighty king of kings and lord of lords, who dost from thy throne, behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the kingdoms, empires and governments, look down in mercy. We beseech thee on these are American states who have fled to thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on thy gracious protection,

desiring to be henceforth dependent only on thee. To thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause. To thee, do they now look up for that countenance and support, which thou alone canst give. Take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under thy nurturing care. Give them wisdom of counsel and valor on the field. Now I'm going to skip forward. Okay, I'm going to get down to this part. So the prayer ends like this. Preserve the health of their bodies and the vigor of their minds. Shower down on them in millions they here represent such temporal blessings as thou seest expedient for them in this world, and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. And then here's how it all of this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, thy son and our Savior,

amen. That, ladies and gentlemen, was the first prayer at the first Continental Congress. And then fast forward 250 years, and you have people saying, in no sense was our nation founded on Christian principles in any way. It's crazy. Now, I'll just say this. Let me do a little Bible commentary, and then we're going to rapid fire these last myths. So I got a little explanation for why this is. What you're seeing is literally, you're seeing Romans won in action. Yes. It says that when people exchange the truth of God for a lie, it says that they, quote, suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. So whenever an ideology becomes an idol, and by the way, secularism is an ideology that becomes an idol. Whenever an ideology becomes an idol,

truth suppression begins to happen. What does truth suppression look like? It looks like rewriting the entire founding of our nation so that it doesn't sound like it was in any sense Christian. Now, why do they do that? I'm going to give, I just want to give the strategy. Here's the strategy. Rewrite the past to control the future. Yes. I just want to say that one more time. If you're a Christian trying to figure out like, dude, why are they always doing this? It's like there's volumes of counterevident. Why are they always trying to erase all this? The strategy is rewrite the past to control the future.

If we want the future of a nation, a society, a culture to be a godless, secular, honestly, gospel opposing future, well, then we have to rewrite the past in order to control the future. That's the strategy. That's why dudes like that are really important. That guy right there. Do you want to rapid fire these last ones? I would love to. And I'm going to really work to abbreviate it.

Yeah, we'll do our best. Okay. You got a little chart on this guy. Tim Barton, America was uniquely racist, it's uniquely built on slavery. Yeah. So I don't have time to really debunk this as well as we could. but the bottom line. Yeah, this could be multiple podcasts just on what's true and not true about this.

By the way, neither of us are saying, oh, no slavery took place. And there was no sin that took place. Obviously, like, you know, yeah. No, but it's like looking at one of the heroes, the Bible, King David, and you'd be like, well, he's disqualified because he had an affair and murdered your eye. And it's like, we're not saying that didn't happen. But also, if that's the only thing you know, you don't know the whole story, and there's a lot more context.

Like he wasn't called a man after God's own heart because he was a sinner. He was called the man after God's own heart because of what God put in him and what God used him to do, of what came out of him because of what God was doing. Not to digress too much, but a lot of people look in America

and they're like, no, that's stain is all that matters. And they also divorced it of the context from the rest of the world. So one of the questions I love to ask, okay, 16 or 1700s. This is really important. Right? What nation of the world

didn't have slavery in the 16 or 1700? There were none. There were none. Yeah, there were none. And like, again, this is not a defense of America. What I am pointing out is America is not uniquely evil. America participated in the same evil. It was evil.

It was the same evil everybody else in the world was participating in. And to go further, when people want to villainize the founding fathers and they're like, yeah, but all them had slaves. First of all, they didn't all have slaves. And I won't take a lot of time going through into bunking that. But the bottom line is the majority of the founding fathers were actually people that came out against slavery, against the slave trade, supported abolition movements, and many of them never had slaves, and many of them actually freed the slaves they did have. They changed positions, again, not to spend too much time there, but the point I would ask

people when they make these claims is, okay, so 1700s, when the founding fathers are alive, what leaders in the world can you name that had money and power and didn't have slaves? Anywhere in the world. And again, it's because what we do is we put the founding fathers in a uniquely evil category, when the reality is, no, this is the culture of the world at the time, right? If you back up historically, Joseph from the Bible, Genesis has a code of many colors. Right? We know his story.

His brothers get jealous. They throw him in a pit. And then what happens? Oh, the brothers sell him to who? Slave traders, the Bible says. Slave traders from Egypt. Why does it matter? Egypt's in Africa.

There was already a slave trade in Africa in Genesis. Okay? So again, like, and this is not like disparaging to Africa. This was the way the whole world was. This is everybody. The whole world. So when we pretend like the founding. Father is uniquely evil, it's totally wrong. But then when we distort the story even more for political

agenda and narrative, it's stupid. When you look at the 1619 project that says America was started in 1619 when the first slaves arrived here. Well, it's kind of, the claim they make is kind of true, but it's super misleading and very dishonest. Because there were slaves that arrived at American shores in 1619. That's totally true. It's also true. Slavery was illegal in Jamestown in 1619. Really? I didn't know that. So what happened is, background context, Jamestown becomes a colony in 1607. They're under the British charter, but slavery is not approved for this British colony. It's illegal.

What is approved, and this is where people are like, you're being nuanced. No, there's very specific details that are different. What was approved was indentured servitude. But here's why it matters. Indentered servitude was for a specified period of time. Debt repayment. Largely debt repayment. Correct.

And at the end of that time in the Virginia colony, regardless, of how you got your indenture, when your indenture was over, not only you're giving freedom, you were given your own partial of land. So here's the crazy thing. So these, there was an actual slave vessel was a Portuguese slave vessel. And there was a group of British sailors that were privateers selling under a Dutch flag, which basically meant they were like working as contractors for the Dutch and they got to attack other ships that were against the Dutch in the conflict. Not to digress. They attacked this Portuguese slave trading ship. They overwhelm it. And, And they say we're taken as some of like the treasure of the booty.

We're taking 19 slaves. We're going to go sell them and make money. The closest colony they can go to is Jamestown. They go to James Town. They say, we want to sell some slaves. And they're like, we don't really have slavery here. And they're like, okay, what do you have here? And they say, we have indentured servitude.

They're like, cool. We want to sell you some indentured servants. Those 19 slaves are sold as indentured servants. But what is really important to the story is there's actual record that those 19 slaves that were there, they served their indenture by 1633. there's not only evidence they were freed, there's evidence that one of, specifically this guy's on the record of 1633, one of the men who had formerly come as a black indentured slave servant in 1619,

not only was he free, he was indenturing other people to come work on his farm. Wow. Because it was just, that's kind of... That's just what you did, right? Like, it wasn't a hot take, but here's where it's a hot take. That Portuguese slave trading ship was on its way down to Cuba or Jamaica. If they would have arrived to Cuba or Jamaica, the average lifespan of a slave working in Cuba and Jamaica at that time was about one to three years

because of the brutality of how they were treated and the sugar cane, whatever else they were doing, right? The gold mining, all the things they were doing, brutal conditions. Here's the hot take, Josh. The best thing that possibly could have happened to those 19 slaves aboard that Portuguese slave trade ship was they were brought to these shores in America. Oh, wow. Because had they gone to Jamaica or Cuba, they probably would have died.

one to three years. Now, the only reason I'm saying this, it's not to say there wasn't slavery in America, but it's, again, it's pointing out that even what we think we know of the story is so crazy incorrect. And again, it would take pods to go through this, multiple conversations, but I want to jump ahead because the bottom line is that there were two early colonies in America. There was Jamestown, there was Plymouth. Plymouth were people that were motivated by Christian principles. And that's also from Plymouth, you have. Puritans? Well, the pilgrims come in 1620, the Puritan's come in 1630.

And that's where you have the Massachusetts Bay Colony, but it's all kind of up in that region. There was a really, really famous... This is fascinating. There was a famous image done, and I don't know where they can do it is. We'll put it up in post, so that people can see it better. So over on this side, it shows that the two early colonies right here, Jamestown, there's actually a gold coin, and on the coin, it says Mammon. And when was this drawn? This came out at the end of the Civil War.

It was in the Reconstruction period. And this map was done telling kind of the story of the legacy of America because part of the conversation even back then was like, hey, like not all of America was actually promoting and supportive of some of the evil institution of what slavery was. And so- So this is 1870-1888 is when it was first published, but they're working on it for a while. And again, this is published because there's already a prevailing narrative telling part of the story. up here is Plymouth, and there's a book, and it's a Bible. And what they show is, right, when James Town, by the way, Jamestown found it as a Christian colony, had a Christian charter, early chaplain pastor leading them, but they definitely were motivated by things

other than biblical ideals in many ways. And so when they start pursuing Mammon, right, money, they actually go very bad direction. So it shows that God's curse of slavery and what happens, and actually in all these drawdowns, It shows things like the Kansas Nebraska Act, the Missouri Compromise, the fugitive slave law. It shows what resulted from that. But then up here where you have Plymouth built on the Bible, God's blessing of liberty,

and it shows how the majority of the nation actually was more impacted by Plymouth than Jamestown. And again, the reason it matters is like the 1619 project, they made no mention of Plymouth or the Massachusetts Bay colony. Nothing north. Why? Because that doesn't fit the narrative. That doesn't fit any part of their narrative. And we are arguably far more influenced by the Plymouth colony, by the Massachusetts Bay Colony, by the Pilgrims and the Puritans. That was far more impactful to America's Foundation than was Jamestown.

Wasn't there some story that you mentioned about like a slave ship that ran aground and then the up there in the north? Yeah, so 1641, they pass a law against man stealing, which is actually from the Bible. Yeah, that's right. By the way, punishable by death. Correct. One of the few things, it's like there's six or eight things in the Old Testament that are punishable by death. Man stealing, in other words, stealing people in order to make them slaves was punishable by death in the Bible. By the way, that was a lot of the foundation on which the abolitionists stood.

Correct. To oppose slavery, William Wilberforce and all the Christians who oppose slavery. So, yeah, go ahead. So that was also in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, that was punishable by death, which was from the Bible. and they actually put the Bible verse beside the actual law, which is so fun. But the reason that matters is they passed a law in 1641 that mansillings a crime. You can't kidnap somebody, et cetera, which again, it's from the Bible. 1646, there's a slave ship that arrives at the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

This blew my mind. This story is insane. They think they're doing what they do in lots of places. We're just going to like sell and trade slaves. And so they get off and start announcing, we have slaves. Where's your market? And they're like, oh, not here. You don't.

So the local towns people. Let me just highlight this because they're Christians with a Bible in their hand. Right. So like 150, 200 years before everybody else is abolishing slavery, these guys with a Bible on their hand are doing what you're about to describe. Correct. So they, the townspeople go and they capture the captain and all the crew and they put them in prison.

They put them in jail. They charge them with the crime of man stealing. It actually goes before a judge and they're like, we had no idea this was a thing. Like everywhere else in the world, we're allowed to do this. And they said, okay, we're going to let you go because of ignorance. But if you ever show up here again, you don't get a second chance. Like, we're trying you and execution. But also, you forfeit all your cargo. And so they took all of those that have been enslaved. They actually took up a collection and saying that's a, it's kind of funny because they really said, we're doing a tax. I sent somebody out to get money

from every person. So literally, it's like a fundraiser. Yeah. Um, man. And they collected money. They hired a new captain, a new crew, and they said, we don't know where they're from. You take them back and they'll tell you where they need to go. So they literally paid for their return. And again, like you track the story. And by the way, it's not that the pilgrims of Puritans. Here's why that's a big deal to me. And this may be lost on you. Like normal guys like me, they went to a normal public high school and you pick up stuff and like the vibe that I always got was like all the founders of your country were overtly raised. racist evil people. And it's like, hey, man, actually, not all your ancestors were evil. Right. Because that's the vibe that I always picked up on. That's why that story blew my mind. And this is where, so I spoke at a college campus. And afterwards, we had an open mic Q&A and this professor got up. And he's like, Tim, how could you suggest that like the founding fathers were moral men when we know all of them had slaves? And I was just like, in my head, I was like, all right, we're going to play this game. I was like, let's go. I said, now, just be clear, are you suggesting they all had slaves?

We know they all did. I'm like, okay, let's talk about it. What about John Adams? He goes, what about John Adams? I'm pretty sure he never had slaves and fighting his slavery his whole life. He's like, well, I don't know about John Adams, but all the others did.

I'm like, I'll play your game. Like, let's go. What about Sam Adams? Well, I don't know. Never had slaves fighting and slaves'all's a life. I'm just going to argue with you about American history. That's the last thing.

I don't get in fights. I know I'm going to lose. Well, I literally go through like Roger Sherman. I go through all these examples of guys that never had slaves, fighting enslaved for their whole life. and like five or six guys in, he's finally like, okay, fine, Tim, I don't actually know who didn't and who didn't have slaves,

but I know the majority did. And I'm already like, you just disqualified yourself. You literally just said you don't even know who did and didn't, but this is to your point. We are taught that all of them are guilty of the evil that the majority of them opposed. And here's what was lost on me. And by the way, both of us were,

we already quoted the Bible verses. We all agree, like no one's saying anything different, that man stealing, slavery, all this. Like, wrong. All this way we agree with that. But the point that was lost on me for so many years was, hey, man, that wasn't a unique evil that they were, it was like only. It was like, no, man, unfortunately, that was everyone in the world, including every African nation in the world. Correct.

Everyone was committing these things. Yeah. Which, that doesn't excuse it. No. But it does, it, it, the context that it was typically presented to me in of, hey, man, the American founders were uniquely racist and evil men is simply not. No, and we never tell the rest of the story that, especially for the northern colonies, every single northern colonies passed laws for the abolition of slavery by 1803. By 1804, they all have laws that are passed.

And the reason that matters is because that's 30 years before England and slavery. Every one of our northern colonies already passed laws for abolition. We literally signed a law banning the slave trade before England did. So when people look at America and we're like, we're so bad. we led the world in the opposition to all of these things that we agree were evil, but you're using this as a club to say how evil America is when the reality is, we should have said, look how evil the world was at that time. And look how God raised up some men in this nation who saw the evil for what it was

and said, we got to put a stop to it. And they led the first political movement anywhere in the world against that evil. Wow. Doesn't excuse it, does contextualize it. There you go. Okay. Let's, I don't know how you're going to do this one. We got, I got two more. You're going to rapid fire them. Tim Barton, the American settlers committed genocide against the Native Americans and stole their land. America is all stolen land. Yeah. So big questions at the beginning. Who stole their land? I don't know. I'm just telling you what I heard. But this is the question, right?

This is the question, right? Because the narrative is we stole all the land. Okay, so the pilgrims, when they arrive, they land on shores where actually where Squanto was from, that was where his tribe was, a disease hit. They're all wiped out. Nobody's there, but they get there, and they're like, okay, well, we want to live here. They actually agreed and bought the land at a price agreed upon by the Wampanox, Chief Massasoit. So the pilgrims buy the land. When they have colonies break off, right?

you have Massachusetts Bay Colony, they buy the land. When you have Connecticut, you have Roger Williams and Rhode Island, they buy the land. My favorite is when William Penn, the founder of Pennsylvania, very devout Quaker, he goes to Pennsylvania, which, by the way, the king gave Pennsylvania to his father, who was the Admiral Penn, who had won, it was a naval leader who had won this Admiral, won multiple wars for the King, and the King said as a commission, I'm going to give you land in my new world. And I'm going to name it in your honor. I'm going to call it Pennsylvania.

So that was from the king, a gift to the family. William Penn was a Quaker. England was Anglican. William Penn kept getting thrown in jail because he kept having Bible studies, which were illegal if you weren't Anglican. And so his dad negotiates to get him out of jail. The dad, the son, the king are like, let's do all of us a favor. Son, why don't you go with your different views?

You go build your own colony for all your Quaker friends in the new world. King, you're happy, I'm happy, my son's not in prison, he's happy, he's got freedom. So William Penn comes to a new world. When he starts building a colony, they encounter one of the first tribes. Now, William Penn again is a Quaker. And Quakers are from the beginning, they are against war and they're against slavery. Like two things you can kind of know about Quakers. But they're also people that are very driven by biblical truth.

And when they are building a colony, they encounter this tribe. And the Quakers in Pennsylvania, they got along with every tribe they ever met because of their Christian because they were so gracious and giving. They didn't have the issues that so many other tribes or so many other groups of settlers at times have with other tribes. So William Penn is they're building this colony. The first tribe comes up and says, what are you doing? He's like, we're building the colony.

And they're like, but this is like part of our land. And he says, I had no idea. Like the king said it was his are bad. Can we buy it from you? So they agreed to a price. He bought it from the first tribe. Second tribe shows up. This is what are you doing?

I'm building here. Whoa, this is our land. You can't build here. He's like, but they said it was theirs. We bought it. Oh, wow. Can we buy it from you? He buys it from the second tribe.

Wow. Third tribe shows up. Wow, I never heard this. They're like, what are you doing? I'm building. You can't build here. He bought it from three tribes. Why?

Because all three tribes have been warring over who got the land. Because this was in an era like conquest, a strong survive. That's the way the world was. That's the way it was for anybody in the world, but absolutely for natives here in America. And the reason I say this is because when you look at the early colonies, It was so clear, George Washington, when they do the Northwest Ordinance, which is how the new regions where populations are expanding, they're going to become territories, eventually they become states. In the Northwest Ordinance, in Article 3, it says that no land shall be stolen from any natives, and no land can be taken from them without their consent. What?

What? It's literally in the laws of America. Now, it's worth pointing out if you're having to pass a law, it's because somebody was trying to do something. and you're like, hey, don't murder. That's wrong. Okay? Now, but again, I would point out that this is all of the New England colonies. If you look down at Jamestown,

Jamestown had some rough relationship with the natives because they had a very different mindset. They actually end up kidnapping Pocahontas like in the early years. They ransom are like it's nuts. They did a lot of things that were not good at all, which is also ironic when 1619 was like, Jamestown's so bad. I'm like, well, they are just not for the reasons you're saying.

Like, they did so many bad things. but when people say we saw the land, my question is who? Like, when did that happen? Because honestly, what the majority of people think about is actually the 1800s, when you have the expansion of the Calvary, when you have like Andrew Jackson laying the foundation of what became known as a Trail of Tears. But even in the midst of the Trail of Tears,

there's even more context to some of that story. And this is not like a defense of it. But it's part of the story that we're not told. So, for example, when the Cherokees leave from Tennessee, and they're one of many tribes that are resettled in the Trail of Tears, The Cherokees took something special with them. They took all of their African slaves with them. Really?

I never heard of that before my life. Okay. What? One out of every eight of their tribe was an African slave. Bro, never heard that before. Okay. And by the way, like this is stuff like people can look up. This is documented that the highest percentage African slave holders in America were native tribes. I've, in my entire life.

Leading up to the Civil War. Okay. But this is. is not a knock on any natives, right, at all. It's the contextualization saying this, this is the way it was. So even when people say stole land, stole it from who, but then I would go even further because people, not only is there more to that story when they're like, but it's this tribe. And I would say, okay, well, well, how did that tribe get the land? Yeah, see this is honest amount. Let's say this and move on. Whenever somebody does a, like, I almost had us play at the Obama Library Commission where

they began with the stolen land. Acknowledgement of the stolen land. You see that like a lot of more progressive places. The illogic, the foolishness of it is whenever you do a quote-unquote land acknowledgement or a stolen land acknowledgement, really what somebody's doing is they're arbitrarily picking a year in history. It's literally they're just grabbing a year out of history and going, well, this person owned it at that year. And so we're going to say those are the original inhabitants. If you can pick a different year and there were different inhabitants, so what people need to understand is, and we'll just say this and move on, this is an explanation, it's not an excuse. Then you get all into just war theory and, you know,

You know, found a right to exist concepts. But I do want to clarify, the majority of the original 13 colonies, the land was purchased from the natives at a price agreed upon by the natives. See, I didn't know that. Okay, I didn't know. See, there you go. That's really helpful to know. But what people do need to understand is that all land is, you've literally never been on land that's not conquered land. Correct.

You go about. It doesn't exist. I'm just going to read some. The Normans conquered Britain. The Mongols conquered Asia. The Bantu expansion displaced the African people in the United States. So this is what you're talking about. You know, three tribes are going, one piece of land is all ours.

Well, here you go. The Sioux displaced the cayenne. The Comanche conquered the Southern Plains. The Aztecs built an empire on conquest and human sacrifice. Even in Mexico. Like, you know, man, talking about Mexico and that kind of. The Spanish conquered the Aztecs. So then, but the Aztecs conquered somebody else.

Right. Which, by the way, how did the Spaniards conquer the Aztecs? They were joined by nearly 80,000 other native. who the Aztecs believed in human sacrifice, which very well documented. But they targeted these other tribes, and these other tribes didn't have the power. It's estimated there's anywhere between

one to three million Aztecs at the time. And you have Cortez with 500 dudes? There's no way five. Oh, but it wasn't 500. It's between 40 to 80,000 other native warriors that joined them in the conquest because they were tired of getting killed by the Aztex. See, this is like, that right there.

I'm a history guy. Never heard that for him a whole life. Yeah. But again, It's like this era of conquest, even when the Comanches were defeated in Texas. I'm like, this is just off script. Why do these, what is your theory on why all these stories get selectively edited, very, very twisted, and then weaponized? So I think it's obviously, as you mentioned, it's whoever controls the narrative, right, is able to direct their direction.

And I think that there's a lot of people, sometimes there's good heartiness where you're like, let me just simplify this. Right. So Cortez beats the Aztex, and then you're simplifying it because to tell the whole story, right? Like we've had to simplify everything and we've had to skip things along the way. So I think sometimes it's good-hearted simplification. But when you simplify it, you can leave out details that in the future actually make a really big difference for the conversation we're having. But I think if you would have looked in earlier generations, sometimes things that get left out are things that other generations would almost like take for granted. We're like, well, of course everybody knows.

like Cortez was joined by other groups along the way. Of course, people know the founding fathers believed in Christianity. Like, there's things that certain writers would take for granted based on who they're writing to. And so sometimes things, again, good-hearted gets left out. But then there are people that can really distort it for nefarious purposes. And the reason they can is once you've stopped, you can't promote a lie well while truth exists. Now I say that with a caveat because we're in the days of social media. You can literally watch a video and people are like, you didn't see what you saw.

It's like, no, really. And so they're literally gaslighting in the midst of it. But I think before the gaslighting became as prominent, there were people that strategically said, let's not talk about it for a while. And then once you've gone silent for 10 and 15 and 20 and 30 years, you have a generation that's never heard anything and you're like, let me tell you what happened.

And honestly, if we were to talk to like our grandmalls and grandpas back in the day about some of these things, they'd be like, oh, yeah, we know all that. And we're like, we've never heard this before. It's because we went quiet on telling the story. And sometimes it's strategic. When you go quiet, then when you come back with a new narrative, nobody knows you're lying because nobody knows what the truth actually was.

Dude, so you're talking about nefarious purposes. Let me say this and move on to our last thing that I want to talk about here. You know, what you got right now, and you agree or disagree, I'd love to know what you think. But right now, what I see in our culture is primarily what you have is Christian theology versus critical theory. And there's really two, they're opposing worldviews. They're locked in a cultural cage match. they cannot coexist, and one's going to win. It is, this Christian theology versus critical theory.

And the difference between them is Christian theology, it divides the world along a sin, righteousness lens. What's right and wrong? Okay. Christian critical theory, it doesn't divide the world along a sin righteousness lens. It divides the world along an oppressed oppressor lens. Well, then what you've had happen in our culture is, obviously critical theory is what it does, is it gets into, it's called intersectionality. But what it does is, man, if you kind of, if you boil it down to its lowest common denominator, it goes, hey, man, we're going to view the entire world through an oppressed oppressor lens, and who are the oppressors? The oppressors are, it's predominantly white, Christian, heterosexual men. If you're a white Christian, heterosexual dude, you're basically

Darth Vader. Well, then essentially what happens is if you start viewing the world through an oppressed oppressor lens, and those are the bad guys and everybody else is, the oppressors are the bad guys, and everybody else is the good guys, well, then what you're naturally going to do is what is Romans chapter one say? We already said it, is they suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. So then what they do is they go back into history. Let's selectively edit and reinterpret all history through the lens of that oppressed oppressor lens that we're beginning with as an epistemological starting point. And so if you're asking the question, man, why does every story seem to get selectively edited

and twisted with the same narrative that the Christian dudes were the bad evil guys? And that everybody else were the good oppressed guys. Well, that's why. Yeah. It's rewrite the past in order to control the future. When an ideology becomes an idol, truth suppression has to happen. Yeah. Josh, I think you nailed it.

I think the fundamental question is who gets to determine what right and wrong is and who gets to determine redemption. Because critical theory, there is no redemption. There is no redemption. Right? And this is like the most significant core part of the gospel is that redemption comes through Jesus Christ, that we can be in sin but not stuck in sin because we can be redeemed from sin.

and when you have an ideology that says there is no redemption for you, you can know that's of the devil because there's no condemnation for those in Christ, Jesus. It's the devil who says, no, there's no hope for you. Come on to him. Come on to him. Come on to out, preach. All right, you only get one. You have to do this. Like, you get, you can tell me one story.

Okay. Tell me one story from this American founding era that would contradict this myth, Christians, especially pastors, should stay out of politics and culture wars. You want to go Black Row Bredgment? Where do you want to go? Black Row Regiment? Where do you want to go? Oh my gosh.

Yes. So, I mean, any of body I would pick is going to be a pastor and they're going to be Black Rob Regiment. By the way, our listeners will not know what Black Row Regiment is. I'm so glad. So let me take the one that tells the best story to Black Roe Regiment. So there was a guy. His name is John Peter Gabriel Milenberg. He was a pastor.

His father was the founder of the Lutheran Church in America. And so the father has two sons, John Peter Gabriel Mulemberg. It's a strong biblical name. and Frederick Augustus Mulemberg. So they both become pastors, John Peter pastors in Virginia, and in January of 1776, not only is he a pastor, he's also a member of the state legislature, which again, it's already like we've thrown a little bit of kerfuffle

in this idea that Christians and politics shouldn't be involved, or pastors in politics shouldn't be involved. He is, January of 1776 is the British come into Williamsburg, which is where their capital was. The British do what, in Williamsburg, what they did in election in Concord. They went and tried to take all the guns and gunpowder. Disarm the people, which is what tyrants always want to do as they're taking over.

And Patrick Henry is the acting governor at the time. He finds out what had just happened, that these 200 British soldiers took everybody's guns and guns powder away. He says, all right, Rowley, the farmers, we're stopping this. So 5,000 farmers show up. That's amazing. Shout out farmers. 2,000 British soldiers have all the guns.

But it's single-shot muskets. That takes you 30 seconds to reload. I don't care you got all the guns. You're about to be overwhelmed. And so word goes ahead. And they're like, hey, it's your last chance. Like, give us stuff back. It's about to go bad.

As this unfolding, Patrick Henry tells the state legislative assembly that this is such clearly an act of war. This is not just like Massachusetts, Boston. Like, they're not just having the problems. This is now in Virginia. George Washington has already sent out word that we need to start raising local militias. Patrick Henry says, all right, everybody, go home to your local district and raise a militia.

Well, this pastor, John Peter Gabriel Milenburg, he gets on a horse from Williamsburg, rides over 200 miles back in time for Sunday service. And gets to its churches in Woodstock, Virginia. His church is still there to this day. Now, today I think there's some rainbow flags on it, which he would not have supported. But the actual church, you can actually go see the church. So he gets back in time for Sunday service. Back then everybody wore, all pastors wore black clerical robes.

It was just the dress uniform of the day. So he gets up and his elevated pulpit because there's no. sound system back then, so you have this pulpit really high up, kind of front center of the congregation. And he opened his Bible, puts on his pulpit to Ecclesiastes chapter 3, a time, a season, a purpose for everything under heaven. The beginning, verse 1, a time to be born, a time to die, gets down to verse 8. There's a time for war and a time for peace. He closed his Bible, looks at the congregation, and starts telling what happens in Williamsburg. He's the first news to get there, right? Nobody knows what happened. He wrote 200 miles, so he says, this is what just happened.

we are going to war which by the way General George Washington commander of the continental army he's asked us to raise a militia so we're going to raise the militia we're going to war y'all join me in prayer

and you can imagine right like the whole congregation is like what's happening right now so he leads a prayer and then instead of doing what pastors would do back then they would go off into the vestry room

they would take off their black clerical robe is he stood in the elevated pulpit and began to disrobe and everybody's like what's pastor doing calm down brother bro, it's not that kind of party.

What are you doing? So he disrobes to show... The rainbow flags don't come for 300 more years. He shows he's wearing the uniform of a Continental Army officer. Wow. And he just stands there, everybody's taking it in. Like, he's one of them. He dismounts the pulpit and begins walking down the narrow aisle.

And he says, brethren, we came here to enjoy our liberties. But if we don't get involved and fight to defend them right now, we will lose everything we came here to enjoy. He says, I'm going to fight to defend freedom. them, I want you to come with me. They had a little drummer boy at the back of the church. They had a sign up sheet. They had 300 men get signed up at the back of the church. But Josh, here's a cool part.

There weren't even 300 men there that day. What? There were kids and wives signing up their husbands and dads who weren't there. Well, you got volunteered, brother. How did you like to show up and be like, oh yeah, dad, by the way, I knew you'd want to be part of this. We're going to do that for a kid's ministry volunteers. You're going to have the kids sign up. She like, put your parents named out.

But what's cool about this is he gets involved, that they become the 8th Virginia Brigade. He ends up staying in the entire revolution, becomes a major general. He's there all the way at the end, the Battle of Yorktown. His men go through Valley Forge. But his brother was also a pastor up in New York City.

And his brother, Frederick, finds out what John did? And he's like, bro, what are you doing? So he writes John a letter. And he says, you're totally wrong. Like, as a pastor, your job is, pulpit in Jesus. That's your job. You shouldn't be getting involved in these like civil social affairs. So John Peter writes him a letter back and he says, look, I'm a clergyman. It's true. And this is this quote, but I'm a member of society as well as the poorest layman. My liberty is dear to me as any man.

Shall I then sit still? Heaven forbid it. It's my duty I do or my duty to do so. Duty I owe to God in my country. And Freda writes him back and it's like, it's only because you have hot heads in Virginia. You even have these problems. If y'all were more rational, you wouldn't have problems with the British. Well, the reality is, Frederick just hadn't experienced the British marching into town yet. And that summer, they marched in New York. There were 19 churches in New York City. They kind of confiscate all the ground. As the year goes on, they begin to use his church as a hospital, kind of desecrating his church along the way. And the following summer of July 1777, the British have begun to become so frustrated with pastors because they're like, it's pastor stern up people.

If these pastors would just shut up and not talk about these cultural issues, we wouldn't have problems. So they, and their frustration decide they're going to destroy the churches in New York City. They burn 10 churches of the ground. They destroy the other nine. He watched as they set fire to his church. And in that moment, he has this epiphany. He's like, I think I have to get involved. He ends up moving his family to Pennsylvania to find safety.

In Pennsylvania, he runs for state office the whole time his brother still in the military, a major general. The revolution comes to an end. And when we have the Constitution, we then elect the First Congress, and Frederick and John Peter are both chosen as the congressmen in the First Congress. So we have pastors in the First Congress. Well, as they get there, they're trying to elect their leadership, and they're like, we need somebody to Speaker of the House. Who's done this before? Well, Frederick, when he went to Pennsylvania, he ran for office, and he became the Speaker of the House of Pennsylvania. And so they're like, oh, you've done it before.

Okay, you be our speaker. the very first speaker of the house was Pastor Frederick Gusus Mulemberg. To go further, there's only two signatures on the Bill of Rights. John Adams, who is vice president and Speaker of the House Frederick Augustus Mulemberg who, in the first Congress of the guys that wrote the Bill of Rights, it was those two brothers as pastors, and there were five other pastors that joined them in the first Congress. So when people say pastors shouldn't get involved, this was a longer story, but I could give literally dozens of stories.

Had it not been for pastors involvement, we, wouldn't even had an America to begin with. We wouldn't have had a declaration. We wouldn't have been successful in the military. We wouldn't have had a constitution. We wouldn't have had a bill of rights. It's always been pastors in the church. And you do this so brilliantly. And people are like, yeah, but pastors shouldn't be involved in politics. What political issue do you think Christians shouldn't be a part of? And I'll wait. Right. And then more specifically, if you are a pastor or Christian, so what political issue do you think the Word of God doesn't give guidance to? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Because if the Word of God gives guidance to it, then as a pastor,

if I'm teaching biblical issues, if there's political overlap, it's usually because politics is becoming spiritual. Yeah, that's right. But that doesn't mean I should stop teaching what the Word of God says. And we've talked about this personally before. The Word of God, there is arguably more guidance in the Bible for government officials than there is for pastors. And you have five, right, pastoral epistles you can point to, right, but you go Old Testament.

And you talk about whether you want to go through First and Second Samuel, First Second King's and Chronicles, judges and you have Deuteronomy and Leviticus and like when you and we're not even including the prophets that we're speaking to kings and leaders but the reason I say this is there's a lot of pastors I think that some of them are very good-hearted but there's a disconnect that had pastors in the founding had that same disconnect we would still be happy ignorant British colonists and and the reason we mentioned black or regiment there was a a British historian at the end of the revolution who was writing a history and he said that had it not been for that black-robed regiments. We would still be over, and he had to leave America because of his strong loyalist

opinions. He said, we'd still be over there enjoying our time in the colonies. He's the one that gave the moniker, the black herb regiment, because it was these pastors who were black clerical robes that got involved, and they didn't get involved because they wanted to be political. They got involved because they saw the culture they lived in spiritually decaying. And they said, we want to spiritually save and revive what is being taken down. And I would say today, for pastors that have a hard time getting involved, if you're not seeing the spiritual decay of society and if you're not motivated to get involved,

I don't think you're paying attention. Yeah, man. This is just basic, we got Bible verses for this. You are the salt of the earth. And whenever, you know, it's kind of that thing I'll do and then we're going to finish this thing up. But it's kind of the thing that I'll say is, man, I'm always going to keep the main thing,

the main thing. If anybody listens to my preaching, it's, I mean, I just kind of preach first by verse through books of the Bible. One. Yeah. Two, I was just thinking of salvation. Yeah, that's right. One, God loves you. Two, you came here for reason today. I just preach verse by verse to the books of the Bible. And even if you listen to Live Free, man, it's like 90% of the podcast. It's just deep dive on the Bible. But man, what I'm not going to do is I'm not going to have an area of the world that's really important, especially one where we're deciding the societal inheritance that we hand to our children, our grandchildren, and the future of the church in America. And then I'm going to go, you know what? I'm going to apply the Word of God to everything except that. I'm not going to do that. So good. And so, man, it's that thing of, man, if Godly people,

don't apply the word of God of those things. If godly people won't, then the only people left to guide those things are godless people. So if godly people won't, godless people will, then godless people have. Which is why we're very thankful for people like you. Tim Barton, thank you for your time, man.

Happy birthday America. Happy birthday America.