Live Free with Josh Howerton - What Wives and Husbands Need to Hear about S*x in Marriage | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the Word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ.

Starting point is 00:00:24 Thanks for tuning in. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode number 36 of Live Free. Hello, Janet. Hi. All right, this is the just Josh and Janet episode.

Starting point is 00:00:48 And there's never been one before. This is the debut. I know. And right after this, we're going on a date. I know. It's going to be a great day. It is going to be really great. Yes.

Starting point is 00:00:57 So heads up for Listen. The reason this is a just Josh and Jana episode is we are in week two. We just finished week two of the Love Life series through Song of Solomon. It's going great. I think it's been really good. It has been. I do. I think it's been really good. It's very helpful. And I would like to begin the episode giving a warning to everyone that's listening, especially maybe our mamas that are driving some little ones to school. The book of the Song of Solomon is a lot about sex and intimacy. and so we're going to get into a lot of marriage stuff and answer an enormous number of questions people submitted

Starting point is 00:01:35 about marital sex and intimacy. So this is the warning, warning, warning. This is a PG-13 podcast. I actually, it's more than 13. I mean, our 14-year-old was riding with me last week and she said, Mom, you got to turn this off. I don't want to hear it. Seriously? Last week's episode?

Starting point is 00:01:53 Yes. That's hilarious. Well, if she felt that way about last week's episode, This may be more like a PG-18, you know. So heads up. We are later in the podcast. We were submitted. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:02:05 Do you anybody know how many questions were submitted? I mean, it felt like over. It felt like a hundred-ish. There's so many. Yep, more, more, okay. They're saying more. And some of them are a little gritty. So we're going to answer those because, and I just want to say this,

Starting point is 00:02:17 because people need disciples in those things. And they're asking real questions that happen in real marriages for real life. So this is a heads up to all of our mamas, or anybody. with little ones like heads up. I do just want to celebrate a couple things. Jana, last week was our first ever, Lake Point's first week, over 25,000 in-person attendance. Wow. That's amazing. It was amazing. It was incredible. It was at the Rockwall campus, there was like, I look up during the sermon, there was people sitting on the stairs, just family sitting on the stairs, bibles in their laps. God is just, he is so kind to keep multiplying our numbers

Starting point is 00:02:53 day by day. He was awesome. What a blessing. It was really cool. Also some cool things. So a couple quick heads up. I thought this was awesome. So week one of the series, and we mentioned it last week, I did that. I finished the sermon with the code of a man of God.

Starting point is 00:03:06 I don't know who did this, but I want to brag on it. Somebody from the church literally, which camera I'm looking at? Somebody from the church literally just made this thing, the code of a man of God. And I know, sent him off.

Starting point is 00:03:17 That looks great. It was amazing. Yeah. And we had an enormous number of requests for this thing. I spent a lot of time with that. You did a great job with that. That was, yeah,

Starting point is 00:03:27 that was, powerful. Thank you. If somebody wants that, that's going to be in the show notes. So if somebody wants that or any of the show notes for this episode, you can text the word notes to the number 20411, and you can get that. And as always, we will continue to say this. The podcast's like, it's really growing, like crazy.

Starting point is 00:03:46 They all are doing a great job. Carlos and Brooke and Josh and Arthur, all these people. We have the best team. They're the best. I mean, the absolute best. I know, man. So you can always help us by liking, commenting, subscribing,

Starting point is 00:03:58 sharing, rating, all the things. It's a huge difference. It really does. We actually, there was a week, a few weeks ago

Starting point is 00:04:04 where we hit, I think it was like, was it like number 17 overall in religion and spirituality? I think we did, yeah. It's gone awesome. It's really exciting. Thank y'all for helping us grow this sucker.

Starting point is 00:04:13 And let's keep doing it. And then I do want to just say, one other thing, this is kind of, this is awesome. We started giving these out. So we take a season in August and September every year

Starting point is 00:04:25 where we call the church to like 21 days of prayer, like the Book of Daniel. And, and this is actually really cool. They just finished this. We handed this out. It looks so good. It looks really good. This is 21 days of prayer guide for the people of Lake Point or our online extended family. So what this guy is, and I'm really proud because Janice work is in here, these are, there's, it's 21 consecutive days of short like one-page devotionals. with guided prayers, because we're like taking these 21 days to like consecrate ourselves leading up to what we call it encounter. And it's basically one night, shout out, Jonathan Picluda is coming in to preach for

Starting point is 00:05:11 encounter. Basically, it's the last night of camp. That's what encounter is. It's last night of camp. It's very spiritually intense, corporate prayer, big prayer and worship night with Bible preaching. and then we got some things coming, you know, out of our sleeve. Just kind of give everybody a moment of spiritual reset. So anyway, we're calling everybody to this guy to spend 21 days of aligned prayer with the whole church going through this. So you can grab this at any of our campuses for the next few weeks, or I am told they can text the word book to the number 20411

Starting point is 00:05:46 for our like online extended family. That's great. That's going to be great. Now, let me tell everybody where we're going and then let's go there. So here's what we will do in the next few minutes. We're going to talk about very practical things in our marriage, about headship and submission. We're going to especially talk about marital intimacy.

Starting point is 00:06:08 How should we think about that? We're going to answer some like real, you know, serious questions about that. I'm going to talk about, man, what does it look like for a wife to prioritize homemaking? That sounds really outdated, repressive, that kind of thing. So what does that mean? What does it not mean? And then I'll just, hey, for everybody, you have been given your warning. So if you haven't turned the podcast off with the kids around, it's your fault from now on.

Starting point is 00:06:34 We're going to answer questions like, what are things that should not be done in the marriage bed? If two spouses disagree on frequency of sex and their sex drives are opposite, what should they do? What does the Bible say about masturbation? What should we do about that? If somebody has led me, somebody asks this, to sexual sin when dating, can the relationship be saved or should I leave? How do you know when you're dating the one?

Starting point is 00:07:05 How can you tell if you're dating God wants? We're going to be answering tons of questions like this. Sound like fun. That sounds great. Hey, do we want to do this little game first? You want to do it? All right, Carla's going to help us do this fun little game and then break the ice and then we'll get right in.

Starting point is 00:07:18 So Carlos, I don't know what we're doing. You just... I'm asking some questions, and then you need to point to each other as to, like, who am I talking about in each question. All right, Carlos, so he's going to ask questions. Okay. So we just point at each other, and then you point at each other based on what I ask.

Starting point is 00:07:35 Okay. And then to point into who is the person that I'm talking about. So let me start here. We do, by the way, we do not know what questions are coming. No clue. Not a clue. Okay. So we're just supposed to point.

Starting point is 00:07:44 All right, let's do it. It's going to be scary. How sick stuff you guys are. Okay. Who apologizes first after a fight? Who is the funny one? Ooh. Jan is way funnier than people think.

Starting point is 00:08:00 Josh, he's the only one who gets to, well, and the kids, I guess, get to see my funny fight. Jan is funny when people think, let's keep going. Who is more romantic? Oh. Who is more patient? Ooh, it depends on the fit. I probably you. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:19 Okay. Who is the better cook? Oh. Who said, I love you first? Me? I think that was me. Yeah. Who takes longer to get ready in the morning?

Starting point is 00:08:30 Oh, I mean. Who is the grumpier one in the morning? Oh, me. Totally me. Who is more stubborn? Ooh, definitely. Who is Godlier? No.

Starting point is 00:08:47 Who reads their Bible more? Ooh. I think you're a little more consistent. I think so. Maybe. It eats more meat. Oh, carnivore diet for the win for Janet. I'll say that later.

Starting point is 00:09:05 Yep. Who is the bigger baby when sick? Who? I think that might be you. Who is more addicted to the phone? I wish it wasn't. but who is the social butterfly boom

Starting point is 00:09:20 that's way more Janet than me yeah who is the messy one oh who works out more oh I think Janet beats me last one who requires more attention ooh

Starting point is 00:09:37 good job Carlos thanks for dropping that one last all right let's get right in okay quick caveat before we get right in This is going to be fun. You look great. It is. So do you.

Starting point is 00:09:50 You look great. I like your hat. Thank you. Yeah, I got my rooted hat on. We'll talk about that in a second. Okay, we're going to get, let me, so because of the things we're talking about are of a sensitive nature, here's a quick caveat. Anytime you talk about this stuff, what some people will do is they'll bring up all the edge cases and exception scenarios. Oh, but what about this medical thing?

Starting point is 00:10:09 Or what about in cases, you know, cases of abuse and that kind of thing. In general, what we're doing, we have some specific caveats throughout the episode. in general what we're doing is speaking to under normal circumstances. So please don't take any answer to any question and then apply it to an edge case and be like, so you're saying that somebody in that scenario? No, no, no. We're talking about under normal circumstances. So that's a quick caveat as we get in.

Starting point is 00:10:34 Okay. One other thing I'd like to say too, I mean, especially as we're hitting things that, you know, that this might hit you a little hard. I would just say, just be very, very slow to like, to take. take offense, like ask the Holy Spirit to lead you, to guide you. Is there something in your heart, in your marriage that you need to examine? Just like, lay your heart bare before the Lord and allow him to speak and talk to you and comfort you in places that you need to be.

Starting point is 00:11:01 But just, yeah, I just, I don't know, listen to all of it, not just little snippets here and there. That's good, babe. That's really good. That's wise. All right. All right. Okay. We're going to talk about a few of the things they're hardest.

Starting point is 00:11:14 So, like, one of them was we hit kind of in both week one and week two of the series. this concept of, hey man, it's a husband's unique, there's a unique responsibility on a husband to work and provide. And then there is a unique responsibility on a wife to prioritize. We said that it's not that a woman's place is the home, but a wife's priority is the home. I'm just going to read some Bible verses because this is super the exact opposite of what a special women are disciples into in our culture. So like, and we don't apologize for the Bible at like point. If the Bible says it, we're believing it's good. So tied to says this, talking to women, that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands,

Starting point is 00:11:54 to love their children, to be discreet, chaste. It says, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands that the Word of God may not be blasphemed. First Timothy five, or, yeah, First Timothy five. It says, so I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their own households, and give the adversary no occasions for slander. Proverbs 31, here's a little, some excerpts. It says, an excellent wife who can find. She is far more precious than jewels. Then it says she rises while it is yet night and provides food for her own household.

Starting point is 00:12:30 She looks well to the ways of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. Now, that's like the exact opposite of like girl boss corporate culture. Like, you know, it's totally oppressive to tell a woman to prioritize her home. Are you crazy? Yeah. So let's start. Like, Jana, any quick thoughts here? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:52 I think it's just, I think remembering is, you know, like wanting to make sure I say these things the right way. But it's just, it's like we want to love the word and we want to do what the word says. And we know that when God speaks things into scripture, that's for our good. It's for our protection. It's for our flourishing. and so putting a priority on your home it should not be a hardship on you like that's like honestly like keeping your life in priority

Starting point is 00:13:27 like okay God first then your husband then your children and then you know everything else and like keeping your priority straight you want to focus upon the things that the Lord has given you first those are your first ministries the first ministries that God has given you is to those people he's given you to love and to care for and to nurture.

Starting point is 00:13:49 Like, I think the world wants to tell us that our fulfillment is outside of the walls of our home and that you can only be fulfilled if you're doing something other than caring for the people God's place in your life. But I think that not that it's wrong to have a job outside of your home because, like, you read Proverbs 31. And this woman, she is, she is industrious. She does it all. She's working.

Starting point is 00:14:15 She's providing. she's, you know, taking care of, but everything points back to her people. It points back to her home. And so I don't think necessarily you're going to find more fulfillment outside of your home. You just have to keep everything prioritized in what God has given you and keep your priorities straight there. Yeah. It's like this is one thing Jan and I are like pretty passionate about. Is this like a big emphasis in our hearts for Lake Point right now is really.

Starting point is 00:14:46 Restore the order of the home. That's like big in our hearts right now. Why are family so messed up? Because they're out of order. And that includes, hey, man, we need to get the authority structure of the home, right? Okay. We need to talk about, man, husbands are called to be the heads and leaders of their homes. Wives are called to big dirty word coming, submit to their husbands.

Starting point is 00:15:07 We're going to talk about that. And then husbands are called by the scriptures to be primary, to be oriented towards the marketplace. to provide oriented towards the marketplace in a way that wives are not called to be oriented towards the marketplace. And wives are called to be oriented towards the home in a way that husbands are not called to be oriented towards the home. Thoughts. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:15:31 And then, you know, it's like we see it in scripture whenever the woman is called to be the helper, right? A helper suitable for him. And that's going to look different for each woman because each man has a different career path, a different, he's doing something different in life. And so you are the helper suitable for your husband, not somebody else's husband, your husband. And so that is, I think that is a badge of honor. I think that you should pick that mantle up and you should be like so proud and so excited to get behind that.

Starting point is 00:16:02 Like, I mean, even the word helper is like, something ally. Yeah, a necessary ally. A necessary ally. Azare Kinecto. You are fighting this battle together, not with each other. You don't have a battle against each other. you are fighting this battle in life, this everything going on around you together.

Starting point is 00:16:21 You're doing it together. And I think just a gentle, I think watch out for women because it's so many times, like, my husband won't help me with this. My husband doesn't help with the kids. My husband doesn't do this or that or whatever. And there may be areas. I mean, you are very good at serving me and helping me and asking, hey, I know you're really busy.

Starting point is 00:16:43 Is there something I can do? Or can I pick something up on the way home? but you have to remember your husband was not called to be your helper. Like you were called to be his helper, helper suitable for him. And you are lacking what he's missing. And so I think just keeping your perspective where it needs to be. Yeah. So this is like, you know, we want to be really clear.

Starting point is 00:17:05 So first of all, I do think, you know, one of the questions that comes up after a sermon like this is there's a lot of women who maybe wives that do work outside of the home. And they're like, man, is this wrong? Is this wrong? And I think what you're hearing me and Jana say from the Bible. Again, I just want to go back to this. Like for us, it's about the Bible and we believe that God's commands are not burdensome. Is that, man, it's not that a woman's place is the home and that it's wrong for a woman to work outside the home. As you just pointed out, you have examples in the Bible.

Starting point is 00:17:35 Proverbs 31 woman is in the marketplace. Absolutely. You see an example. She deals with wool and flax. It talks about that. But a wife's priority. should be the home in a way that her career is not. And if her career gets in the way of the home, then under normal circumstances, she should find a way to fix that. Is that a good way to say that?

Starting point is 00:18:00 Yeah. I would just say her and her husband need to fix it together. Yeah. Good. That's good. Let's not cause fights. So actually, this is like a huge deal for us. So because we made that, we met a really hard decision that a lot of people didn't understand early in marriage. So let's talk about that real quick. Because a lot of people are like, okay, crap, man, but what does it actually look like? So like, let's talk about that like super fast and then let's move. Okay, so we're 22. Yeah, 22.

Starting point is 00:18:31 By the way, if you're like, oh, well, that's easy for Jana. She's just the type of lady that wants to be in an apron and pregnant, eat and bonbon. You know, whatever, I don't know. Is that funny? Yeah, that was funny. is fine. All our kids are adopted. All of our kids are adopted, never been pregnant.

Starting point is 00:18:52 Well, potential miscarriage. Yeah, potential miscarriage. But actually, Janah was a master's degree in speech, language, therapy, almost, real close to that. I quit. Yeah. But for a reason. Yes. Working towards a master's degree in that.

Starting point is 00:19:08 Right. Anyway, let's tell the quick story of the decision we made early and giving example of this? So, I mean, very unlikely. We were age 22, right out of college, no kids. And we both came, I ended up quitting my speech therapy job because Josh got a youth pastor position. And so we had moved. So I ended up quitting my job. And once we moved, you know, just kind of figuring out, like, okay, what's next? And we both came under just a conviction like I was going to stay home, Didn't make sense. Financially, it did not make sense.

Starting point is 00:19:46 I mean. How much were we bringing home? Maybe 28. I think it was 28,000 was our take home pay. Maybe. Yeah. And so financially definitely didn't make sense. But we didn't have any debt, you know, so praise the Lord for that.

Starting point is 00:20:00 Oh, student loans. No, we paid that off. Year one. No, like within the first two weeks of, we used my last paycheck to pay off your student loans. Is that right? We sold all those books on eBay, too. Oh, yeah. I mean, hey, we did anything to make it happen.

Starting point is 00:20:13 man, we were knocking those things out. I was selling stuff online. I was doing all the things. But anyways, so we came under a conviction that I was going to stay home. And basically, I helped Josh with our student ministry. So I kind of got to be the girls, you know, minister there. And that was just such a blessing, just getting to serve alongside of each other. I wasn't on staff. But I was just, you know, I was just helping him in any way I could. I took a on speech therapy students on the side at a discounted rate since I didn't have my masters. I, um,

Starting point is 00:20:50 tutored a bunch of kids. I, you know, just all the things. Just any, any way to help us, you know, make,

Starting point is 00:20:57 make ends meet. But it was such a blessing. And I, it was awesome. I don't look back at that time feeling like we missed out in anything, even though financially we didn't have much. It was just such a blessing getting to do things together. We're in that little condo,

Starting point is 00:21:12 fit in 60 kids. in that little condo, our neighbors were like, what are they doing? It's like the whole student ministry would come over and cram in every room of the condo, kids all over the floor. It was so much fun. We didn't have any money. No. I remember like date night.

Starting point is 00:21:30 I remember like supersizing a McDonald's value meal. And those were our date nights. That was date night. We cherished it. We loved it. Yeah. Brought it home. Watched 24.

Starting point is 00:21:40 Oh, it was so much. And lost. Lost. But the point is it did not make financial sense. No. It was a step of faith. And Jana, you didn't make that decision because it was like, well, we got a whole bunch of kids, so I have to be home. It was just like, no, like we have a biblical conviction that I need to prioritize my home.

Starting point is 00:22:05 And we came to that conclusion together and took a step of faith. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, I would make that same decision. all over again. It wasn't the decision that made sense. It was not cool. It was in no way cool because I had all of the older women at church. Like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? This doesn't make sense. But, you know, it was, we felt like the Lord had convicted us and he led us to do that, that we're talking about us, our story. And I just, I just see his

Starting point is 00:22:36 blessing in it. Yeah. Now, again, I just want to keep saying because I don't want everybody to feel like, well, the action step is for me to quit my job long tomorrow. That's not what we're saying. Again, it's not that a woman's place is the home. It's that her priority is the home. So you need to figure out whatever situation you're in what that might look like with your husband, prayer, and leadership of the Holy Spirit. Do you think it would be helpful? Like, the more honest we are, probably the more helpful this is.

Starting point is 00:22:59 Like, do you feel good talking about like, hey, there are sometimes where it's like, man, I kind of, sometimes there is a struggle accompanying that. Yeah, I think because my tendency, I am just someone. I just, I do. I struggle with the fear of missing out. FOMO. If there is something to do, I want to do it. I want to experience it. I want to, you know, I'm just, that's just, I've always been that way.

Starting point is 00:23:26 And so I think that there are times that I'm like, oh, you know, am I making the right decision? Like, like doing what I'm doing. Like it's, because it's like, I think my fear is once the kids, and I'm just being, really vulnerable here. Once the kids are out of the house, am I going to be too old to do anything else? You know, like that's in the, that is what's, you know, plaguing me in the back of, you know, my mind. And so I'm always, you know, I can question like, hey, is there something I'm missing out on in this stage and season of my life? But, you know, the thing is, is every time I wonder that, God will, in his own, you know, unique ways, just, I think, comfort me and something will happen that week

Starting point is 00:24:16 to remind me, no, you are right where you're supposed to be. And I think the joy, like, and seeing ahead, you have to have, like, a vision for the future. And so looking ahead for the future and, like, just remind me why I'm doing the things that I'm doing. And so I'm just, you know, you're going to reap a harvest in the future and just leaning into that. Well, I think just like, you know, it's one of those things like in life, the more often you can like anticipate your regrets. I got a buddy Josh McPherson. We did this cohort last week and he said that.

Starting point is 00:24:52 He was like, hey man, to the guys there, anticipate all your regrets. Yeah. And then reverse engineer your life from never experiencing them. And I'll just like, we'll go on our little walks at night. And sometimes there are those seasons where it's like, man, is this worth it? Like, because I can, man, I could very, I'll just be honest. Like, you could be a published author. You could be speaking.

Starting point is 00:25:15 You could be, you know, whatever it is, all the things. Staff, whatever you want to do. And there are times where it's like, ah, am I missing out? Because right now it's like a homeschooler kids three days a week and all the things. I mean, you're super busy with stuff. And there are moments like, ah, am I missing out? But what we always come back to is I'll get a little emotional. talking about is 20 years from now when we don't have any, our kids aren't home anymore.

Starting point is 00:25:39 And right now we're having a blast. And all of our kids, by the grace of God, they love Jesus. They're following Jesus. They're happy. They love us. They love each other. They're thriving. I guarantee 20 years from now, we are not going to regret the time that we spent prioritizing the home and the family. Yeah, absolutely not. And that's something I, you can live with missing out on other things. I don't want to miss out on that and the joy we have with them. Dude, I'll just say, let me dovetail this and then let's move to the next thing. There's a little biblical theology to this. I think it's important for people understand. So here's a verse for like the Bible nerds that you'll read it and you'll be like, dang,

Starting point is 00:26:24 what does that mean? Because that sounds jacked up. So 1 Corinthians 11, 8, and 9. It says, for man was not made from woman, but woman from man. And then it says neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. That is speaking to this exact reality. It's going back to Genesis. And dude, this is super un-PC. This is like whatever is the exact opposite of modern feminism is what the Bible is saying right here. But it's pointing out that God did not create Adam for Eve, but he did create Eve for Adam. And that's what it's pointing out. He created Adam for a calling. Go work and keep the garden. and then he created Eve, go help Adam.

Starting point is 00:27:07 So the man, the husband, is primarily oriented towards a calling. And the woman, the wife, is primarily oriented towards the husband and helping him in that. And that's what that verse is specifically speaking to. Now, like, just for husbands that are listening, like, don't get, like, too blown up on this,

Starting point is 00:27:27 like, you know, puffed up on this. Because I'll be honest, Jan and I've talked about this before. there's a sometimes where I'll see because Jana is a literal you're like literally laying down your life to help to help me and we serve the Lord together but there's a way in which it's like man jan's laying down her life to help me and dude if that does not humble a man and call him up something is wrong with that man so like there's one of my favorite movies saving private Ryan yeah I don't know if we this is my little analogy this is a guy analogy and it's like that whole movie it's like all the guys in the little platoon like see you of them die trying to save private Ryan. And then they get to Private Ryan. And the Tom Hanks character says to him, he leans forward after they save him. And he's like, hey, earn this.

Starting point is 00:28:14 Yeah. Earn this. And his point is, hey, man, all these guys laid down their lives for you. Live a life this worthy of what they just did for you. And honestly, for me, I'll watch you. Like the way that you've oriented your life. And I'll be like, man, I got this woman of nobility, character, value, incredible talent.

Starting point is 00:28:31 and she's like laying down her life to help me. It's like, man, I got to be worthy of this. And it calls me up. You make it easy, though. You do. Hey, before we move on, can I give some examples of what it looks like for you to look well to the ways of the home? Sure. Okay, I'm going to brag on you real quick.

Starting point is 00:28:50 You don't know what I'm going to say right here. I don't. Okay, it's going to be great. So I do feel like there's a bit of like a lost art of homemaking in our culture. So I'm going to give some examples and brag on January. But I'm not trying to like arrogantly, you know, brag about my wife. What I'm trying to do is give an example of I just think some people have never had a vision for what a Christian home could look like. And very frankly, I feel like I've gone farther in my calling and career than a lot of guys who are maybe more talented or have better opportunities than me because I got a better helper than them.

Starting point is 00:29:27 and so our home is like a launch pad for me. So like, for instance, like you got a work ethic. That girl's got a work ethic on her. She's got that Clayton work ethic. My dad. I ain't my mom. Yeah. He's got a work ethic on her.

Starting point is 00:29:42 And we'll talk about this in a second. Most of the times when I've had to like pull rank in our marriage and do a, hey, babe, I've made a headship decision. It's usually because your work ethic is causing your problems. And I've got to help you not hurt yourself. I feel like Jana runs our home like a business. Like, dude, this happens all the time. I'll reach in and my stick of deodorant is empty.

Starting point is 00:30:08 And I'll be like, hey, babe, if you get a chance, could you order some more deodorant? And she'd be like, oh, I already have 47 more sticks. They're already right here. And that's like literally everything. Like toothpaste, the deodorant I like, the little retainer cleaner. It's like everything is five. and you're like keeping track of the inventory of our home like a warehouse and an organization. It's amazing. Everything's always stocked. Our home is a place of rest, beauty, order, and peace.

Starting point is 00:30:40 Like you're, I don't know if you do this on purpose. I don't, I never walk in the door and sometimes you've had a hard day. I never walk in the door and it's, you're like, oh, what a day. Take these kids. I'm so done. What a horrible. Like you feel like. like you intentionally make sure, even if it was a hard day, like, hey, warm greeting, walk into a place of peace, that kind of thing. I'll give some, like, these are like little examples. I had more travel than I like this summer. And it was like, I came home like multiple times. I didn't ask her to do this, by the way, multiple times. Come in, and I'm just exhausted because it's like travel, travel, teach, teach, teach, lead, lead, come in. And, uh, and,

Starting point is 00:31:26 would bring the suitcase in and like the very next day I notice the suitcase is gone and I didn't ask you to do it. You just unpacked my suitcase and did all the, like for me and put everything back. I always do your laundry. Yeah. Let's be really clear. Yeah. That's credit where it's due. Yes. Yes. I love you. Yeah. I want to make life easier for you. The one that was awesome when I go back from the exact team retreat this last time and I was at our bathroom, my bathroom, He didn't know what I'm going to talk about. And so I have two cups on the bathroom sink. I got the one on the left is where I take all my little melatonin at night is for that water.

Starting point is 00:32:07 And then the one on the right is where I keep my little retainer with a retainer cleaner in it. And Jana, like, she had just taken the cups and washed them and replaced them with new cups to make sure I had. It's little stuff like that, man. Yeah. I want to take care of you. Yeah. But I think what I'm driving at is, man, like for a Christian woman, to have a vision, a high vision for what our home can become and to create something out of this world.

Starting point is 00:32:36 Yeah. Any other thoughts there? Yeah. Well, I mean, we want to talk about this now or later, but like so much, I just want to, you know, just like how you serve me. Like, I want to do my best to serve you, to take care of you, to show that you are wanted, that I love you. and that I want home to be a place you want to come home to. I want, like, whenever you leave in the morning,

Starting point is 00:33:03 I want you ready to come home in the afternoon and, you know, know that we're going to be happy to see you and it's going to be like a safe haven, you know. I think what you just said is a big deal. So like in both of the sermons, I talked about the Ngeti thing in First Solomon, where Ngeti was the oasis in the desert for rest and replenishment. And for husbands,

Starting point is 00:33:26 what I was saying is like, hey man, you need to be the type of man that when you walk in the door, peace walks with you. And then for a woman, it's like, man, our goal is a wife, your goal as a wife, is to create a home that when he comes home, it feels like a place of rest, peace, encouragement, and that your demeanor creates that. And so I will just gently say, and I said this a little bit this week, man, sometimes, not always. And by the way, a wife. A while, a wife. A woman. A woman. A woman. A wife is never responsible for a husband's sin. So that's not what I'm saying. But sometimes I do think that like there are wives who like, man, it's like the home is a bit of a disaster. You know, she's emotionally chaotic, obstinate, difficult, absolutely refuse to come gently under their

Starting point is 00:34:16 husband's leadership, refuse to be somebody that is a woman of encouragement. And it's just like, and then so the home is the opposite of Engeddy. And then she wants to be. And then she wants to why he always wants to be at work. It was like, hey, hey, it's because you're creating an environment where, like, he does not want to be. Now, it's still his responsibility. But, like, you know, let's acknowledge reality. Absolutely. So they're used to you talking about, like, Tolkien quotes.

Starting point is 00:34:47 I have one that is kind of served as, like, a vision for our home. And I can't remember which book it was, but he says, Rivendale was the perfect house. house, whether you liked food or storytelling or singing or just sitting and thinking best or a pleasant mixture of them all merely to be there was a cure for weariness, fear, and sadness. And reading that was just like, that's what I want our home to be. That's, I want it to be a cure for the weariness, the fear and sadness that the world creates and brings into our lives, but I want our home to be different. I want other people when they walk into our home.

Starting point is 00:35:22 That's what I want them to feel. You are awesome with that. So thank you. And just like a quick encouragement about your home. Like you're redeeming the fall is what. Like Eden was our home and it was glorious and it was a beautiful place. And then the fall came in. So this world is not our home.

Starting point is 00:35:40 We're waiting for a better one. But by creating a life-giving home, you seek to bring back some of that Eden glory. So that's beautiful. I love that. All right. Let's real quick talk about headship and helping leadership and submission. So again, these are a lot of the questions that come in for two reasons. One, this is where things can get thorny. And two, this is also like the most price, pray.

Starting point is 00:36:09 Wives submit to your husbands as unto the Lord is probably the single most like culturally offensive command of the Bible, maybe next to like sexuality commands, which we'll get to in a second. We're just going to do them all here. So, and again, Jan and I are, we're big in our family of we do not apologize for the Bible. Right. If God says it, it's good. So we don't apologize for it. We celebrate it.

Starting point is 00:36:33 So in our family, it's like, Jana, you don't have a, well, I guess the Bible says that I should submit to my husband. But it's, all right, but this kind of sucks. Yeah. No, I mean, like, I want to. There's blessing in that for me. You know, there is blessing under that. Like, I am a woman under the authority of God as well. and I'm going to do what God tells me to do.

Starting point is 00:36:55 But one thing, you make that a joy. You make that easy. And so I think there's a lot of that that goes into it because it's like one thing with your headship, Paul said last week, let me pull up this quote. Well, you're pulling that up. Let me read the verses. Okay, I have it.

Starting point is 00:37:16 Oh, you got them? Oh, go for it. But he said that headship is not about having the right to rule, but the responsibility to serve. Hedship is not about power. It's about responsibility to serve. And so you do that. You lay down your life for us.

Starting point is 00:37:33 You take care of us. Like it's very easy to step into your leadership or under your leadership because I know like we are a team. We are not adversaries. We are not working against each other. We are companions. We are friends.

Starting point is 00:37:49 I mean, we are more than that, though. We'll be talking. talking about that here a minute, but it's like I want to, I want to step under that. I want to listen because everything you do, it just, you do things to make me feel precious. And I think we're going to talk about that later, some things that husbands can do to serve their wives, but you make it easy. Thank you. Well, let's like it. So real quick, for anybody that's listening, if it's like, ah, man, that whole wives submit to your husband's thing. What? You know, this is, again, just from the Bible, this is Ephesians 5. Wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord.

Starting point is 00:38:30 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ's the head of the church, his body, and is himself its savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Were you going to say something? Oh, keep going. Yep. Colossians 318. Wives submit to your husbands, as is fitting the Lord, 1 Peter 3, 1, 2, likewise wives, be subject to your own husbands so that even if some do not obey the word. They may be one without a word by the conduct of their wives when they see the respectful, your respectful and pure conduct. And again, Titus II, it's talking to the women of the church that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their

Starting point is 00:39:04 children, to be discreet, chase, keepers at home, good, and then it says obedient to their own husbands. Now, I do, can I say a couple things to the men real quick? And let me just say a one, what a lot of guys want to do is they want to skip to Ephesians 525, wives, submit your husband's and they want to bypass Ephesians 5, 21. This says that, it says that Christians should submit to one another. So let me just say, yes, there is a sense in which the husband has authority over the wife and family that the wife does not have. That's just true. It's from the Bible. It's true. It's also true that the husband is a Christian and it's his job to love his wife, as Christ loves the church, that there's a thing. And the reason our memory is,

Starting point is 00:39:50 marriage is, I will just say it, but we got a lot of struggles in our life. Our marriage is amazing. It really is. We have a really special marriage. And it's because there's a lot of like both of us walk into the marriage trying to put each other's needs before our own. And that's the Ephesians 521 thing. And then let me make a couple quick clear statements about what submission is not. And then, Janick, do you mind if I just ask you like what makes it hard or easy? to come under a husband's leadership and maybe maybe talk about that okay yeah so a couple things submission is not i want to be clear is it's uh it's not all women to all men right so it says wives submit to your husband so again we're christians not muslims women submit to men is

Starting point is 00:40:40 islam wives submit to one man their husband that's christianity um it does not mean submission to abuse or sin because it says submit your and husbands and then it goes unto the Lord. So the husband is an authority, but Jesus is the higher authority. So if the authority of the husband contradicts the even higher authority of Jesus, then it's actually the wife's responsibility to ignore the authority of her husband and go to the authority of Jesus and go, actually, you're my husband, but he's my lord, and the Lord beats the husband if they're out of alignment. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:18 This clearly doesn't mean, submission doesn't mean. And this is, I think, another reason it works at will in our marriage. Submission doesn't mean that the wife has like no voice and no choice. Yeah. I'm not sure why people think that or how that's creptive. Because of bad men. It's just, yeah. I mean, yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:36 We talk through all decisions together. But if we, if there's an area that we don't always align up and that has happened maybe what, two or three times. I've got a list here, but it's very small. Yes, you know, and then, you know, we follow, I follow under Josh's leadership with that for sure. But it's always been a blessing to have done that. Well, dude, what I want to say to husbands is, man, like, hey, you're kind of an idiot. Like, I love you, bro, but you're an idiot. If you're just like pulling rank and issuing commands without going, hey, babe, what do you think?

Starting point is 00:42:12 And you're an idiot for a few reasons. one, as we're going to talk about it in a second, that's going to affect other areas of your marriage that are probably real important to you. Yeah. So you need to listen. Listen. We'll talk about that in a second. But number two, like just biblically, so the roles are head and helper. Right. So loving head, respectful helper is the biblical image. It's like, hey, bro, God gave her to you as a helper because you need her help. So like we talk about all the time. We take her little 1.6 mile after the kids go to bed and we talk about everything. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:42:49 And I'm asking you like, hey, what do you, give me your opinion on this big decision I got to make because I need a helper. Right. So it doesn't mean no voice, no choice. And then last is I'll just say, a submission is not waiting until he deserves it. Yeah. And I will just gently say this. Do you want to?

Starting point is 00:43:05 No, you. Yeah, I will just gently say this. There are some wives that, uh, they'll kind of go like, well, I'd love to to my husband, but he's got to be worth at first, or he's not a spiritual leader, and so I can't yet. And I'll just point this out is Ephesians 5, it does not say wives respect your husbands if he's respectable. And it does not say husbands love your wives, well, if she's lovely. No, no, no, it just says husbands, love your wives, no matter what, even if she's not lovely and not acting lovely, love her. And it says to wives, it just says respect your husbands with no

Starting point is 00:43:43 caveats. So respect and follow the leadership of your husbands no matter what. Yeah. You know, kind of thing. So there we go. You got other comments here? Let's go right at. You just want to, do you want to, do we want to give some examples of the rare times? Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, do you have a list over there? Yeah. And you know, the thing is, is I can really only think of two. Okay, which two. Okay, so I went in. I came off of staff. Do you want to tell that story real quick?

Starting point is 00:44:22 And yes, okay, so, you know. This prompted probably the three hardest months of our marriage are close. Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, goodness, I don't even know how many years ago this was. But once upon a time earlier in ministry, I was, I was on our staff at our church plant. as the kids minister. And it was crushing it, by the way. Like she crushed it.

Starting point is 00:44:49 Well, thank you. And, you know, honestly, that was not like, hey, I know that God has called me to ministry. Kids ministry is not what God's called me. I know that. But, you know, one thing you do as a pastor's wife, you serve a lot of places just because there's a need. And so we ended up, we had a season where our kids minister stepped down and I stepped in. but I can really struggle with ministry idolatry.

Starting point is 00:45:18 And I really just was finding my value and worth there. And it was really crushing our family. So Josh was, you know, the senior pastor. And then I was kids minister and I was working crazy hours because, you know, you're a church plant. You are just trying to, you're just trying to make everything happen. And it was really hurting me. it was hurting us and I just, I'm a person. I do not like to quit things. I will push through

Starting point is 00:45:50 until it about kills me sometimes and Josh could see what I wasn't willing to see. And he's like, I think it would be best if you step away from this, you know, position. And I would love to say, hey, I handled that so well. And, um, let me interject, because we talked about it for a long time. That was like an ongoing conversation for a few months. Like, Babe, do you think you should? What do you think? I think you might need to. Yeah, this wasn't a hard and fast thing.

Starting point is 00:46:18 Yeah, we talked about quite a while. Sure. And you didn't want to. Right. And I didn't want to because it was like admitting defeat. So. Jana likes to win. Not defeat to you, but like, I mean, just like, oh, I'm feeling like, I couldn't do it.

Starting point is 00:46:35 But anyways, so Josh just, you know, it was the most loving thing he could have done for me. and I was not willing to see it in that moment because I was like, oh, my ministry dreams are being crushed and that's all I could see. And it was the best decision for me, for us, for our family. Eliana ended up coming home just a few months after that. So, you know, huge blessing, but he had eyes in a vision to see what I wasn't able to see. I was hurting myself. I was hurting our family. and he helps me make the right decision. Yeah. So I just want to say like if you, you know, if you've ever had a hard marriage season,

Starting point is 00:47:16 try firing your wife. It means it better. Let me just say, like not a great three months. We got there. But now I think you, I think we'd both say like, yeah, that was a right decision. It was a blessing. And what a great leadership decision. Like, and I think sometimes that's what can be hard for a wife with submission is they don't

Starting point is 00:47:38 like the decision there has been making, but is it just because it's your preference or because you made the wrong decision? So you need to evaluate that, you know? And like I just want to like give an example. First of all, let me to say like, dude, this is not that I've always crushed it. Like we'll talk about some failures, you know. I've got more of those than I can count. But like some lessons there is one notice that like, hey, the whole, hey, let me listen. It wasn't just a, here's decision I made, no input. Like I spent months. Hey, how, babe, I'm not sure this is the right thing. What do you think? Tell me how we're going to solve this. So lots of listening to my helper, trying to lead us in the direction that I thought was good. And then I also want, like,

Starting point is 00:48:22 people listening, notice I'm, I made the decision out of a heart to protect Jana and guard the health of my family. This was not a, I'm pulling rank to bless me. Actually, it met my life harder. we had to find a replace. Because I had to go find a dang kids minister for a church plant, which is not easy. That was not paying. That was not, not we weren't, you weren't pulling it down in that situation. So that's one. Now what's your, uh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:51 Now, the other thing I want to say is then, but for, for wives notice that on the back end of that thing, Janet, in retrospect, you're like, man, hey, good decision. Yes. Good decision. Yes. Yeah. What's the other one that you can think of a rank pull? And, well, kind of this, you kind of talked about it a little bit last week, but I think I kind of this time got there with you. So, but you kind of helped me see like, oh, homeschooling three kids

Starting point is 00:49:23 with three different curriculums, because our kids, if you don't know, in our family, our kids are super spaced out. We have a freshman and a kindergartner. So it was getting really hard to homeschool three kids, three different sets of curriculum and just all the things. And so now we do university models. So I homeschool three days a week instead of all five. Curse and classical school. Yes. She, Ileana's in three days a week, home two days a week. The other kids are there, two days a week home three days a week. Yes. And you, you helps me. You just, yeah, you help me get there. And honestly, that was like, you know, I'll say, I wonder if you to agree with this. You might disagree. I think because you were working yourself into like a depression.

Starting point is 00:50:08 Yes. And it was like, hey, Janice not good. Yeah. I think I should have pulled the husband card a year earlier than I did. I agree with that. Like I think a year, a year maybe even two before we did it. But we got there. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:29 But honestly, it was like, but again, what I'm trying to do is, I want to listen, value your opinion, dignify your desires. Yep. Right. And it was a blessing. Like, I think you helped me see the things that I, you know, I was maybe not willing to admit, you know. So, and it was the right decision. Well, hey, guys, one of the reasons we are intentional in creating these kind of podcast episodes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships.

Starting point is 00:50:58 Having said that, what we want to do through the live free podcast is we want to model what it looks. like to be in a discipleship group where we come together and open up the Word of God together and grow together as followers of Jesus to live free in Christ. And so for this reason, we love that you're tuning in, but honestly, we don't just want you to be a passive listener. We want you to be an active participant. And so if you have not yet joined a group, you need to get into Rooted. Rooted is a 10-week discipleship experience that helps you grow closer to God, build meaningful relationships, and discover the purpose he has for your life.

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Starting point is 00:52:12 Yeah. The others I have are, they're little. Like, and there's a point I want to make for husbands because I will hear horror stories, and some of the questions submitted made this unfortunately clear. You'll hear horror stories about like these narcissistic, religious, husbands that they don't actually care about their wives or the will of Jesus. They just use Bible verses to manipulate their wives to get what they want. Yeah. And what I'm trying to make a point here. So like, so notice in both of those examples, I'm pulling rank for the good of Jana and the

Starting point is 00:52:50 health of my family, not what's easiest for me. The other examples I have is when we first, we got a housekeeper to come once a month. Oh, yeah. Listen, man, you fought that. Yeah. You fought. And it was like, oh, no, it's my house. I should be able to do it.

Starting point is 00:53:06 What's that say about me if I can't clean my own house? There's a certain way that I like done it. But it was the same thing where I was like, man, responsibilities are growing, church is growing, huge stuff. And I was like, babe, I love you. I've made a decision. And once a month, we are going to have this happen. And I know it's your space. And I know you're a little uncomfortable, but we're going to try it.

Starting point is 00:53:25 And now, if you had to choose between me and the house. keeper, I'd be a little nervous. Well, that's not true. I'm joking. I'm joking. That was a once a month thing. Hey, let's test drive this thing. And then there's been a couple other times.

Starting point is 00:53:36 It was actually like just, it was like two weeks ago. You remember there was a night where you were just, you'd work, work, work, work, worked. And you were a little maybe overstimulated. Yeah. And it was like, oh, I think I should be out here with the family tonight. And I was like, nope, made a decision. You go take a bath. You go chill.

Starting point is 00:53:54 I got the kids. Yes. You need some you time. Yes. So here's what I want to point out is there's a lot of lessons there, but what I want everybody to notice the men is your heart should be to bless and protect your family. And in those moments where you got a quote unquote pull rank, that's what you're pulling rank for, not your own self-benefit.

Starting point is 00:54:18 Yeah. What are you looking for over there? Yeah. I just, you know, wanted to comment that it's just like, you know, I think for husbands in those instances to remember that like you are loving her like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her so that's you know that the men who use those verses wrongly you need to go back and examine the beginning of that verse so let me ask jana what are things that make it harder or easier to submit to a husband well i think honestly if it's just if it's someone who is trying to just dole out

Starting point is 00:54:57 expectations or commands or whatever that would not people are not going to want to come under that you know um so that would make it a huge challenge um but i i think it's just um there's got to be love there there's got to be um you know like every time you have done that like it's it's been to show your love and care like to show that i am precious to you that you value me me to some way to bless me even if in the moment i didn't understand it or i was too stubborn because you know earlier talking about how i can be stubborn um you know it's like um all of those ways you know should you there's there's value in that and so um yeah so i think it's just do you have examples from our marriage that's like oh this is what has made it easier

Starting point is 00:55:53 yeah um i had a list i don't know I'm sorry, my notes are messy. Okay, so I know your affections are for me. So it's like everything that you, and I do for each other, like it's because we're walking in unity in our marriage. So all of this, like leadership and all that is, you know, we are very unified in all of that. But you go out of your way to look for ways to bless me.

Starting point is 00:56:29 like all the time so on um valentine's day i i don't it's funny we'd never really celebrated valentine's really big until like a couple years back um we would normally just go out to eat but then he he josh did this huge valentine's day for me he had notes for me throughout the entire day and um he got one of my really good friends without me knowing um he's like okay i need you to meet janet here at this time. I secretly planned a whole day for you and you didn't know what was happening. I know. It was wonderful. It was so much fun. Yeah. So we and I love, this was a couple years back when we did the high tea thing, but I really love that. So we got to do that. I set up a massage for me. So I got to go and have a massage and just have a relaxing day. And then we had this great dinner. And it was just

Starting point is 00:57:27 all these notes. The sweater. Oh, my goodness. I'm proud of that one. So I, every once in a while, like, you know, you'll see this, like, outfit or shirt or whatever that. Like, there's one on. It's a Christmas story Christmas. Yes, a Christmas story, Christmas.

Starting point is 00:57:44 I love, like, vintage-looking things. And I was like, oh, I love that sweater. That's, like, that is an amazing sweater. Well, I didn't really think anything of it. And actually, I did because I went and tried to find it online and I couldn't. And Josh had like research. He actually blocked me on Facebook, if I remember correct. That's correct.

Starting point is 00:58:01 And somebody helped him find the website. Wait, that sounds bad. I blocked her on Facebook. And then I asked, I publicly asked the women of Lake Point, hey, I need to find this sweater. I helped me find it. And like 200 women from Lake Point commented. One of them found the exact sweater.

Starting point is 00:58:17 And so then I went and got the exact sweater. And then I deleted the post and then unblocked you. That's right. That's right. Well, and I figured, I was like, why can I see his stuff? Where is it? But so whoever you are, thank you. Because that's like one of my favorite pieces of clothing.

Starting point is 00:58:33 It was so great. But it was just so thoughtful. He just went out of his way to be thoughtful every turn. And then it's like on vacation this year. So we're celebrating 20 years in October. But we always celebrate our anniversary during Josh's study break. There we go. And so he was just, I mean, he had planned all this stuff for when we got there.

Starting point is 00:59:00 Each day when I woke up, I had a note from either a close friend or a mentor or, you know, somebody who had just made a huge difference in my life, like waiting for me when we got up. He had all kinds of different things planned for the day. And he just goes out of his way to like, okay, what would Janah like? And then he does that. And we just got time together, which is my favorite thing. And then like on a daily basis, like not just like on those big weeks or days, daily on his way home from work.

Starting point is 00:59:37 Like, hey, I'm, you know, driving by story, anything you need me to pick up or do you need me to do anything for you. He's just constantly going out of his way to like try to make my life easier, which is a huge blessing. And then I sent it to you earlier today, so I don't know if we were putting it up. Oh yeah, it's up there. Yeah, it's right there. So Josh will leave posted notes for me, just, you know, various places. And it's just so sweet to like, you know, you open a cupboard and there one is. Or you open your drawer.

Starting point is 01:00:09 And it's just really sweet. Just I was feeling very, very loved. Well, it's a, yeah. So this was, I was in Guatemala, Elian, and I went on a mission trip. And so we get back from the mission trip. and waiting on. My car was just a note. He made sure the house is clean.

Starting point is 01:00:31 The laundry was done. Dishes were done. Everything was picked up and had dinner waiting on us. And it was really, really sweet. Somebody had, whenever I posted that, somebody asked how I read your writing. Yeah, it's tough to read my handwriting. I mean, but after 20 years.

Starting point is 01:00:45 I have other strengths. After 20 years, it's easy. Yeah, I have other strengths. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Okay. Let's move to, you know, a lot of the sex and intimacy stuff.

Starting point is 01:00:57 This is where a lot of the questions kind of come in. And, dude, this is, it's a really important part of marriage, obviously. That's like, if you want to get down to what marriage is, it's a sexual union. That's what makes it different. That's like what sets it apart. So it's like a significant part of the marriage. And a big part of the book of Song of Solomon is specifically about, it's a celebration of sex and intimacy of marriage.

Starting point is 01:01:21 Right. So let me just cover one quick thing, a quick theology thing. And then, Jan, why don't we just kind of do this thing where it's like, why don't you talk about some things that wives, Christian wives need to hear about sex and marriage? And then why don't I talk about some things that Christian husbands need to talk about, hear about sex and marriage? And then we can move to answering some questions.

Starting point is 01:01:45 So just theologically, I hit this real quick in the sermon. I wish I had a little more time. Okay. So here's what happens. The book of Song of Solomon is obviously, it's called the Song of Songs. We hit this in week one. It's called Song of Songs to illustrate that it's a superlative. Like Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings is saying he's the best one of those.

Starting point is 01:02:06 So when it says it calls it Song of Songs, it's saying, this is the best one Solomon ever wrote. And he wrote a thousand and five songs. And it just so happens that it's about romance, sex, dating, and marriage. And very frankly, a lot of it is about. intimacy in marriage, physical intimacy and sex in marriage. And what is pointing out is this is something that God blesses, delights in, you know, is a good thing. So what you got here is there's really three ways that people think about sex in our culture. A lot of people think about sex as God. And that's when you look to a created thing for something only the creator can give you. So this is like

Starting point is 01:02:49 in our culture how people will build their entire identity off of a sexual orientation or proclivity. Like honestly, if you've been around a lake point, I won't say, I don't like the phrase where people will say, they will say, I'm gay. A same-sex attractive person will say, I'm gay. If I talk to them about it and disciple them, I'd be like, hey, actually, man, you're a Christian, I would not say that. Because now you're taking a sexual desire and you're turning it into an identity. It's not that you are gay. Let's not say that. Let's say you experience same-sex attraction. That's a desire.

Starting point is 01:03:23 Don't turn a sexual desire into an identity. Our culture does that all the time. Like, the most important thing in life is that you experience sexual pleasure and get to do every thing that's any desire you have. And if you can't do that, then you can never be happy. That's viewing sex as God. I'll do the others a little quicker. Some people, they don't view sex as God.

Starting point is 01:03:48 they view it as sex as gross. This is very frankly, it's a lot of people who are raised in like really conservative religious circles. And so it's kind of that vibe of like they kind of are raised around this, almost this mentality in church that man, sex is dirty, gross, vile and wrong. So save it for the one you love. You know, and so then what happens, especially to women, is women who grow up in those environments of sex as gross.

Starting point is 01:04:15 Very frankly, they get into marriage. And it's real hard to flip that switch. Yeah. Where it's like, well, now I've always thought of it as gross or somebody who came from sexual sin in their background. And so they have all this feelings of stain and dirtiness around it. And then they get in marriage and they're supposed to flip that switch. And they canter it's hard.

Starting point is 01:04:36 Were you going to say something? I think, you know, honestly, I think this is why Titus II is important and it should be happening because older women. You need older women in your life who are able to talk to you about these things and understand the goodness of that and how sex in marriage is so important. There's a whole book on it. Which, by the way, that's the third category is sex as gift. Sorry. No, no, you're good.

Starting point is 01:05:05 I'm getting ahead. No, no, it's third category, sex as gift. God celebrates it. It's a wonderful gift to be enjoyed not just for procreation, but recreation. I'll just point this out. there's a lot of talk about sex in the song of Solomon in marriage and there's not one mention of children yeah so the point of hey man it's not just for procreation it's for recreation and intimacy y'all have fun and okay so go ahead yeah sorry yeah i was just that was my point is just it's like um you

Starting point is 01:05:37 i think we we need people speaking into this you need to have mentors who are speaking into this and and unfortunately because one of the question. We got several, several people saying, why, why doesn't the church talk about this more? It's so important and needed. Because there's so much confusion. There's so much confusion. And if you're asking, why doesn't the church talk about this more often? Just watch the reactions to this podcast and you'll figure it out really fast. Because anytime a church talks about, so this is, if you are kind of like, ah, should we be talking about this? Yes, we should be talking about everything the Bible talks about.

Starting point is 01:06:13 And we just have an axiom. If the church won't disciple people, the world will. So, hey, heads up, guys. The world is like massively deed-discipling people, like reverse-discipling people in the area of sexuality constantly. So if the church, if we don't help people with some of the things we're going to talk about in the next few minutes that are a little, you know, kind of up in your business,

Starting point is 01:06:37 then people are going to go to the world for answers and get bad answers. Right. Do you actually, do you want kind of dovetailing off what you said about, hey, Titus 2, the older women should teach the younger women. Do you, obviously, names redacted. Do you want to talk about what that's looked like in your life before in the area of sex and intimacy? Yeah, I was going to use this for later. Oh, we can do that. Let's wait. Yes. Okay. Actually, let's start here. Jana, why don't you just take it away? So like, let's speak candidly to the wives and husbands of Lake Point. What, Jana, do you think are things that wives? need to hear about sex and marriage. Okay. I have a lot. Buckle up. Okay.

Starting point is 01:07:17 Okay. So, hey, I love you. That's why I will say some of the things I'm about to say. I want your marriage to thrive and flourish. And so I'm going to all say some things. But women are really, really good at giving attention to the needs of everyone around them. Kids, friends, extended family, people at work. But what about your husband?

Starting point is 01:07:41 And I want you to really think about that. So are we taking notice of what he needs in ways that you can be a help to him? You're completely exhausted and you have no time for physical intimacy or a desire for him. But you know what? If your friend calls you and says, hey, can you go out tonight? All of a sudden, you're excited and ready to leave and energized. And so what do you think, what kind of message does that send to him? And you are thinking he doesn't notice, he doesn't care.

Starting point is 01:08:11 But he does. He cares. Let me just say, he cares. He cares. He cares. So just remember, you chose one another. You are God's gifts to each other. You're the only person in his life who can fulfill his need for physical intimacy. So marriage is the only way that he can get this. He needs it.

Starting point is 01:08:33 Sex is important. And you need to make sure you're having more of it. Somebody, do you remember early in marriage? There was early in ministry. I asked a pastor like, man, I don't know how to, what? I don't know how to disciple people in this area. What should I say? And he said, well, in every church, here's a deal.

Starting point is 01:08:55 Your single people need to be having less sex and your married people need to be having more. He's like, there you go. That's what you need to help them figure out. Go ahead. Okay. So if you want to see some ripple effects in your marriage, first I'd say make him feel wanted. So start desiring him, pursuing him, initiate sex with your husband, just like the lady in Song of Solomon. She gives us an example.

Starting point is 01:09:20 So if you do this, it's going to blow his mind. That's incredible. So this is your superpower, right? So sex builds intimacy and it's just not a physical, just a physical thing. I think people think it's just a physical thing, but it's not. It meets a powerful emotional need. It does for women. but I mean it really does ferment.

Starting point is 01:09:43 So feeling wanted in this way gives a man confidence and a sense of well-being being in every other area of his life. And so I'm just going to say this. So the next time he has a big thing going on work, he has a big meeting or something he's nervous about. You know what to do to help him feel confident to walk into that meeting. And then just women need to remember that emotional intimacy for them is going to lead to physical intimacy.

Starting point is 01:10:12 But for him, physical intimacy leads him to emotional intimacy. And so it's kind of like we both need to be playing our parts and doing what we need to be doing for the other. And then you're going to improve your intimacy with one another. That's right. Anything else there? So, well, another thing is just like being a student of your husband. So God says, he's going to make a helper suitable for him.

Starting point is 01:10:41 So you are the helper suitable for your husband. And sometimes you don't start off that way. I didn't start off that way. I had to observe you. I had to watch you. I had to see what you liked, what you didn't like. We are marriages, it's a team of two equals that fill one and other gaps. And so think about it.

Starting point is 01:11:00 What does he need? What does he like? And, you know, like these are in like small things. but I used to, in the past, I used to, when Joshua traveled, I would, like, write him notes and and stick it in his luggage. And then I figured out later, like, you know, he'd much rather me send a flirty text. So then I started doing that. That is 100% true. In Jesus' name, amen. That's right. So it's just be a student. And it's like, you won't get it all right at the, you know, at the beginning. But just what is your husband like? What does he need? How does he feel loved?

Starting point is 01:11:33 How does he feel valued? So be a student. of him and wear pajamas that he liked. You want me to keep going? Yep, this is your spot. Okay, so in Song of Songs, I think it's first, is it 213 where it says, it talks about catching all the foxes that spoiled vineyards. So the vineyard is your relationship. And so I think we have to get really good at identifying what are the foxes in our marriage

Starting point is 01:12:04 that we need to catch. So is it an attitude you're having? Are you selfish? Are you withholding sexual intimacy? Let me explain something real quick. I'm sorry to interrupt. So this is really important what you're talking about. So is Song of Solomon 215?

Starting point is 01:12:19 Let me read it. And it's in the context of them as lovers. And it says, catch for us the foxes. The little foxes that ruin the vineyards are vineyards that are in bloom. And the analogy that Song of Solomon is giving is the vineyard is obviously is the example of their marriage and their intimacy. And what they're saying, they say little foxes. They're saying, hey, man, it's actually not always like one big cataclysmic thing

Starting point is 01:12:46 that brings down the intimacy in your marriage. It's usually like 37 tiny things that all aggregate to bring the thing down. So when you're talking about, hey, catch those little foxes, man. What are those, you're listing some of those little things that like, hey, man, watch out because these little things can all add up. And so keep going on with some of those examples. Thank you for clarifying that. So I'm going to give you just kind of a list of things that it could be.

Starting point is 01:13:15 But, you know, so is it an attitude? Is it selfishness? You just, you don't want to do it so you're not going to. Have you let the sun go down on your anger and you have resentment that's building between you? Do you feel distant from one another? And you keep waiting for the other person to take the first, step, but then they don't. So you need to catch all those things. And if you're in that situation, you're waiting on the other person, don't, don't wait. You be the person. You step in and you,

Starting point is 01:13:45 whether it's apologize, make amends, do whatever you need to do. Like so some of the foxes that I'll go a little more detail with is not prioritizing each other first. And we kind of, we hit that earlier about keeping your priorities in order. So there's temptation. before marriage towards sexual impurity. And then after marriage, there's a temptation for married couples just to have no desire for it at all. And so you, I think mentioned this earlier, but 1 Corinthians 7, 2 through 4 is just reminding us of our conjugal rights in marriage.

Starting point is 01:14:24 And so just making sure that you are making time for that and prioritizing it because it is important. So do you need to make adjustments in your day? Are you just way too busy? You have too much going on. You're so tired. So what changes can you make about your day or your week to have more time? And I think you were going to say some stuff to guys about that part.

Starting point is 01:14:51 Definitely. Okay. But you need to have something left at the end of the day. You need to have because you're going to have time for everybody else who needs something of you. but making sure you are making that time for your husband and what he needs. And it's good for the both of you. So if you have young kids, your kids need to have bedtimes and they need to be sleeping in their own rooms because you need that time together. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:15:17 I'll just verbal highlight because the thing that you said, I think, gets a ton of marriages that Song of Solomon explodes is that most marriages, what ends up happening is he's playing a lot. offense and she's playing defense, you know, and, you know, what you point out is throughout Song of Solomon is she is the one that's the physical initiator. Yes. She is initiating. She is the aggressor, for lack of better term. It's like when I played, I remember middle school basketball, the cheerleaders, they had their cheer was, it was like, be aggressive, B-E-E-aggressive, B-E-G-R-E-S-I-V-E aggressive. There it is. That's, make that your cheer, ladies. There you go, man. When it comes to marital bedroom things,

Starting point is 01:16:06 B-E-A-G-G-R-E-S-I-V-E, be aggressive. There you go. That's great. You got anything. Hey, do you also just want to add because I do think that's important for ladies to hear? Because especially with this, like, there have been moments where whether it was physical things going on with your body or that kind of thing, where you did call an older, godly woman, is like, hey, help me with some of the, I got, basically, I got some sex questions. I don't know what to do with it.

Starting point is 01:16:31 help me. Yes. Okay. Well, yeah, I'm going to move that one up then because I was going to get there. But yes. So, and this is kind of where, this is kind of part of the tightest two things. Like when you have questions, you should have an older woman in your life that you can ask, ask questions. And so I, you know, we've struggled our entire marriage with infertility. And so that has really messed up my hormones. I've dealt with that. And just, you know, there was a point in time where I was just like, okay, I need to ask. I do not know what is happening to me. I do not, this is, I do not feel like myself. And I just need somebody older and wiser who has gone through all these things to just be

Starting point is 01:17:20 honest with me. That has a good passionate marriage. Yes, that's right. That's right. And so, so this mentor, and I will not tell her name, but, but she, was just we talked through everything and um and she was just really honest like um you know it's just like you know as you're aging and your hormone shift and all of you know all of these things like you may need to go see a doctor and um and i did and i'm like really glad i did i knew my hormones were messed but i didn't know the extent and i think until i got got all the readings and so

Starting point is 01:17:56 i think just being able to um you know i had a biological thing going on. That was impacting, you know, just our intimacy. And so I had to go and get that checked out and get my hormones balance and that made such a difference. So are you, like if you're in a place where like, ah, I used to have desires and now I don't, I don't know what's going on. Like go find a doctor that you're, you know, that you trust and see if something's going on. If there's an underlying factor, your thyroid, your hormones, or whatever, and, you know, for women who, because these were some of the questions, too, going through perimenopause and menopause, don't be afraid to go to, like, especially if you're in the menopause era, like, there are still hormonal doctors. I'm not a doctor. I don't pretend to be one.

Starting point is 01:18:51 But you go see a doctor who can kind of help you through that because, you know, you know, that'll just, it'll help, it'll help your marriage and it'll help your, your body. But the point is right there, and this is really important, the point is, don't just accept a reality that you shouldn't accept. Don't just kind of go like, well, this is, you know, I don't have desire anymore. And so, man, this is not going to be as much part of our marriage. You know, like, we have Bible verses for this. Like, this is a 1st Corinthians 7. This is a command to figure that out. Yes. And there is no shame in like figuring that out. Like you, you are to feel better your marriage is going to be better and thriving so just you make the effort this is

Starting point is 01:19:32 an area like you know you you want to fix fix you know have it all possible so do that anything else we got it um with yeah with that unless there was something else no that's it so let me let me do a few things on um what husbands need to hear is that well oh i thought you just meant what about that no you keep Go on. Okay, so one thing I wanted to say to for, you know, just like you want to like have just great regard for your husband. So this is a little, another one of those little foxes. So if the only time you prioritize your sex life is when you're trying to get pregnant, like what kind of message do you think you're sending to your husband? God doesn't just give us physical intimacy for procreation, but he gives it to us for pleasure. So one day you're going to be finished having kids. And if the only thing you've based your love life on with your husband is trying to conceive. Like, you don't, you've not worked to build anything great. It's something that can be great. And so, you know, there were a lot of questions on infertility in that.

Starting point is 01:20:40 And I'll say that here in a minute. But, but what I do want to say is, like, I'm really glad that, you know, our intimacy is not based upon whether we were or weren't able to conceive because we were, like, almost 20 years in here. And that just wasn't God's plan for us. And so it needs to be based on more than just that. And if you are struggling with infertility or miscarriages, like what I want to tell you is that I think sometimes because that pain is really hard and it is, it is. It's just, it's painful. It hurts. It's hard. It's hard to walk through it. But like, I would encourage you do whatever. you need to do. A lot of people will just try to push it down and not deal with it. But you need to,

Starting point is 01:21:30 you need to be dealing with the pain. However, you need to do that, whether it's talking to a friend, working through it with your husband, just being honest about what you're going through, all that. But don't let's take and get a foothold there because that's what happens to so many marriages who struggle with infertility. So, so yes, I would go there. You keep going. Are you done? You keep going until you're done talking to the ladies. Are you done? Okay. Well, there is one more thing. You keep going until you're done. I'm going to let you keep going. Okay. Here's another fox. So catch the fox of tearing down your man. So this was one of the questions that we received. And it was, what do I do when my wife is addicted to social media, constantly watching videos and comparing us to the people in the video. And so ladies, please don't do that. Like if you want to know how to emasculate your man, that's how you did it. You did it.

Starting point is 01:22:31 So you need to stop picking on the couple areas he's getting it wrong and never praise him or think him for what he gets right and you're going to emasculate him. So don't do that. Do not compare him to other men. He is your man and you chose him. So what are the things that made you fall in love with him And start noticing the things that he gets right and praise him for that and build him up? Because as you praise him and build him up with your words, I mean, I guarantee he starts working in confidence

Starting point is 01:23:02 And you're going to see some of those other areas change as well. That's good. All right, let me say a few things that I think husbands, They probably need to hear about sex and marriage. And dude, if you're a younger guy especially, Hey man, it's going to take you a minute and figure some of this stuff out. Be patient. have some grace.

Starting point is 01:23:19 You're going to figure it out. So let me just say a few things. Number one, monogamy is awesome. Like, let me just say this because probably men more than women kind of have this. I don't know, our culture's a little more jacked up. But, you know, men more than women will kind of have this thing of like, oh, man, it doesn't sound fun to eat the same flavor ice cream your whole life. You know, it's what like, so here's the analogy.

Starting point is 01:23:42 Bro, A, that's a really stupid thing to say. So here's the analogy. All right. So here's a question I ask. Who do you think has more fun playing the guitar? Eric Clapton or me? I don't know how to play guitar. Who do you think has had more fun?

Starting point is 01:23:58 Eric Clapton has spent his entire life mastering one instrument. And when he picks that thing up, he knows exactly what to do with the strings and exactly the right order to create a masterpiece. I don't know what heck I'm doing with a guitar. I've never played guitar. And honestly, without getting too weird, That's the analogy.

Starting point is 01:24:18 It's like the guy that goes from girl to girl to girl to girl his whole life, you're the guy who picks up a new instrument every week. You have no idea what you're doing. And so you can't do anything super fun when you play the new one because you don't know what you're doing. No, actually, what's really awesome is spending your entire lifetime mastering one instrument. And you can figure out how to do awesome things that way. So number one, I would just say figure her body out. Monogamy is awesome.

Starting point is 01:24:45 master the wife. You know what I mean, and I don't mean why to say that. Master the instrument. That's what I'm saying. Figure it out, pay attention, that kind of thing. Number two, men really need to get this. You pointed this out, for women, emotional intimacy leads to physical intimacy. For men, physical intimacy leads to emotional intimacy. And we're speaking in generalities. Of course, there are exceptions. but what a lot of dudes will do is again they tend to give what they want to receive it's like hey man here's what you can understand is what women need to understand is hey if you really want to access his heart you do it through his body like he's going to feel really loved respected cherished

Starting point is 01:25:32 when you give him a lot of physical attention like sex and intimacy she is not going to want to experience physical intimacy until you experience emotional intimacy with her. So how I might say it is for women, sex is more emotional than you think. Emotions affect her sexuality. For men, emotions are more sexual than you think. Like, sex with a husband affects his emotions more than most women would think. So it's like when that's not good, a lot of times he's not good.

Starting point is 01:26:09 Well, what men need to figure out is, hey, dude, you can't skip the emotional intimacy and try to get straight to physical intimacy with her. So, like, what men need to figure out is, is when she feels loved, heard, cherished, connected with, that's usually going to go well for you, man. So figure that out. Number three, and I got a hilarious little meme on this that I think is really funny.

Starting point is 01:26:36 You do need to figure out women are different than men when it comes to marital intimacy. Throw that meme up there. I saw this years ago, and I'm like, that's 100%. true. Like, and I'm not going to make all the applications. You can figure out what this means what it doesn't mean. It's real easy to get a man excited. It's really, really easy. Real easy. It's like on the, on the meme, there's one button. That's all this. For, and on the

Starting point is 01:26:58 meme, for, there's lots of things going on there. It, like, without being too weird, it's, you know, you need to figure that out. Women are different than men. So like for, especially young guys trying to figure marital intimacy out, ah, why isn't this going well? What I, what? What? What I would say is she's a crock pot, not a microwave. And she's going to need a second to preheat that oven. And you're not like that. And so sometimes there are, you know, I joked earlier. Actually, I wasn't joking where I was like, Jana, I got the kids for the next three hours.

Starting point is 01:27:27 You go take a bath, read a book. Like, you just, you got the night off. Let me just say, in general, it's like, like, I think men can't understand this because we're not like this. But, hey, man, what you got to understand, she's not going to be able to, like, go from, like, 13 hour day, a million things going on. I got kids all around, you know, running around my feet, screaming for this, pulling for that. And then I'm, you know, I'm the professional chauffeur

Starting point is 01:27:53 running a thousand kids, a thousand places, and da-da-da-da, I got this to-do list and everything going on. And then boom, in 10 seconds go straight to, you know, sexual intimacy. Like, bro, she's not wired like you. You can do that. She can't do that. Right.

Starting point is 01:28:06 And so you just need understand like, hey, man, that, that, you got to have time to preheat that oven. find a way to give her some space and let her, you know, give her a second or relax that kind of thing. Next thing I would say is the biblical command to out-serve one another. You need to take that biblical command into the bedroom. So a lot of the questions that were submitted, like I don't want to get more specific than I should, but it was really clear like there are a lot of men who are sort of like walking into, to the bedroom and their goal is really just their pleasure.

Starting point is 01:28:50 Well, hey, man, that's literally a sin. Like your job as a husband is to have a posture of, man, I'm here to serve and to bless you. And I would just say, hey, husbands, take that into the bedroom as well. And again, I don't want to get more weird than I should, but maybe an axiom in life that may need to apply to marital intimacy, as well is ladies first and I'll just leave it right there we'll just keep going and then last one I would say is uh is she needs to feel it's more like young men it's more important than you might think

Starting point is 01:29:27 like she needs to feel beautiful so this is one thing that uh that I think a lot of younger men don't understand so because men are maybe a little more visual than women in general for husbands I think a lot of sexual attraction and, you know, arousal, whatever word you want to use, is primarily about how his wife looks. Well, guess what? For her, you know, being whatever you want to say, in the mood, arousal, what are you going to say, is also about how good she looks. It's like, is if she feels beautiful, then she's going to be a little more inclined in that direction. and so man what you don't need is you you are not doing a good job treating her in such a way using your words to bless her so that she feels beautiful cherished you know attractive that

Starting point is 01:30:25 kind of thing so I think that's another thing that's really important is there anything that I just said that you would add color to or go over with like a verbal highlighter I think you did a good job with that that feel okay okay Should we get to, let's finish maybe with some Q&A? Sure. Okay. So like we said, there were well over 100 questions that were submitted. Jan and I are going to rapid fire a few of these.

Starting point is 01:30:52 And again, I want to continue to emphasize this is maybe more like a PG-17-18 deal. This is a married couples kind of thing. Because some of the questions, they were. They were about their real questions that real Christians need real answers to. but they are a little, you know, they're not consumption with your kids type questions. We want to help people with these. Do you want to take one first and then me go,

Starting point is 01:31:19 or do you want me to start or what you think? Because I know you've got a list over there. Yeah, you want to take the first one? Yep, let me go for the first one. Question number one, and we're going to obviously remove all of the profile images, and that's great, thank you. Question number one, this person asks,

Starting point is 01:31:36 are there things that should not be done in the marriage bed together? The answer to that question is yes. So let me talk about this real quick. I got this little list from a Bible teacher named Mark Driscoll, but this is really helpful. There are 10 things. Let me just list them. There are 10 forbidden sexual acts in the Bible.

Starting point is 01:31:57 They are fornication. That's sex before marriage. It's called fornication. Number two, adultery. That's obviously sex with somebody outside of, of marriage once you are married as adultery. Number three, polygamy is forbidden in the Bible. A lot of people go, wait, but didn't a lot of the people in the Bible practice polygamy?

Starting point is 01:32:17 What you got to understand is there is a difference between the Bible being descriptive and prescriptive. When God creates marriage and gives us the example, he creates one woman and one man for a lifetime. So polygamy, forbidden. Number four, rape is forbidden. Number five, incest is forbidden. Number six, any form of homosexuality or same-sex sexual expression is forbidden. Number seven, bestiality is specifically forbidden in Exodus 22, Leviticus 20, Deuteronomy 27. So we know what that is.

Starting point is 01:32:50 Number eight, prostitution is forbidden. Leviticus 19, 21, 1st, Corinthians 6. Number nine, this is a catch-all term, sexual immorality, which comes to the Greek word, pornea. Jesus forbids in Matthew 19. It's also in 1st Corinthians 6, Ephesians 5, 1st Thessalonians 4. So what I'm pointing out is the Greek word pornea. This includes, Jesus does it in the sermon of the mount.

Starting point is 01:33:14 This includes lust of the eyes, lusting after somebody that's not your spouse. The word is pornaia. So guess what that includes? Pornography is forbidden in the Bible. And then number 10, pagan sexual activity. And this is any type of sex that is caught up in the worship of false gods, which is very common throughout human history. So let me go back to, you can take all those things and let me synthesize an answer to this

Starting point is 01:33:43 question. The question was, are there things that should not be done in the marriage bed? One, those things that we just said, all forbidden. The other things that I would add or highlight are anything, anything that harms, degrades, or is unwanted. anything that harms, degrades or is unwanted by your spouse should not be done in the marriage bed.

Starting point is 01:34:11 And then I just want to again highlight this because it's on the rise in our culture. Anything that involves another person than your spouse. And that includes introducing pornography into your marriage. Like some of the questions were like, hey, is it wrong for us as a couple to watch pornography together to get, you know, kind of turned on and then, yeah, that is wrong because you're introducing

Starting point is 01:34:35 somebody that's not your spouse into your marriage bed. Anything you'd add there? No. All right. You want to take one? There was a question that we, I don't know, it was a lot. This one may have been one of the most asked was there was a lot of questions about frequency and what that needs to be in each marriage.

Starting point is 01:34:57 Well, let's just, let me read it. Oh, we got it. Yeah, this is one of them. This was, yeah, may have been the most frequent question asked. How to come to an agreement on frequency of intimacy when sex drives are opposite. So let me just, before you answer it, Jan, first of all, if you're in this spot, hey, everything's okay. Something weird is not happening to you. You're not alone.

Starting point is 01:35:21 You know, this is a normal thing to struggle with. Now, Jan, do you want to? I think one, like, that's something like you, you just need to have very honest, but like both people need to come to these conversations because they can be just, they can be pretty emotional because it's, I don't know, you're just dealing with something that feels, because it is very vulnerable. And so I think just coming with grace and love to conversation, but I think that is something you need to, I mean, we've had to do this, like talk openly and honestly with one another,

Starting point is 01:35:59 Because I think sometimes people are looking for a number. Like, what's that magic number for, you know, how many times each week or whatever? And I just think that that is very dependent upon each couple and that's something you decide together. And then, you know, a lot of times, you know, sex drives are different from one another. So I think it's figuring that out. Are there some biological things going on or maybe not? I don't know. But it's like, I think just figuring out what is what's best for your marriage.

Starting point is 01:36:28 but I think seeking to serve one another. Like one person can't be like, well, this is all I can get. This is it. You really need to come to an agreement together for the benefit of your marriage. We actually have a Bible verse that answers this specific question. So this is, you mentioned it earlier. This is 1st Corinthians 7, 3 through 5. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife and likewise the wife to her husband.

Starting point is 01:36:52 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not. not have authority over his own body, but yields it to his wife, do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. So if you are going through a short prayer and fasting season and you decide together, this is what we're doing. Awesome. I don't hear about that very often.

Starting point is 01:37:20 That is probably not the reason. I was going to say. I've never heard someone said that. Yeah, that's a rare thing. Then it says, then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you. because of your lack of self-control. So in other words, like, hey, just very gently, this issue should be sought to be solved aggressively

Starting point is 01:37:39 because this right here is pointing out the reality like, let me just say those questions that were submitted, it was not all situations where husbands' drive is higher than wife. That's true. Not. It was not all that. So I just want to say, whoever, you know, the spouse is, is, hey, let's work together, but we do need to work according to that passage to as quickly as we can.

Starting point is 01:38:04 Let's solve that problem. I'll give a gentle encouragement here. Two things. One, what you want to do in marriage is you focus on you and let them focus on them. So, man, if you're the one that needs to focus on patience and forbearance, self-control, you focus on you. And as much as possible, it's their job to focus on them. Now, do you need to talk about it?

Starting point is 01:38:26 Yep, you do. You have vulnerable conversations. And you need to figure it out fast because we got that Bible verse. But that helps. And then last thing I'd say is, man, watch out that we don't live by the I don't feel like it axiom. Children live by feelings and adults live by commitments. And I bet you are very glad that he doesn't only treat you in a loving way when he feels like it. Okay. Well, you need to apply that to physical intimacy, the same way that you experience. respect him to love you even when he doesn't feel like it, you need to try to apply that to physical intimacy. Yeah. And I would also add there, though, is like, whatever you need to do to like, you need to make sure you're showing excitement for it. Don't just be like, okay, like being a good soldier, like, no. Like you, just like the woman in Solomon, you want to be excited. You want to, be engaged and so or you're going to just kind of ruin the mood yeah and his confidence

Starting point is 01:39:32 and yes and his confidence like very hard for a man to feel unwanted right exact same way for a wife but it works both ways okay um let me do the next one and again i'm just again giving you a caveat this is a very very very very common question and so you know i am going to answer it um this person asked what does the Bible say about masturbation. So let me just say a few things real quick here. Number one, the Bible never explicitly mentions this. It's just not explicitly mentioned. Some people will sometimes point to Genesis 38 and old churches would talk about like this, they would call it the sin of Onan because you had a situation in Genesis 38 where a guy named Onan marries his dead brother's wife. And there was an Old Testament command that,

Starting point is 01:40:22 that related to making sure that widows were cared for and that they had a chance to produce offspring that could care for them in their old age, okay? And he, you know, I don't, I'll just say, you know, he, in Genesis 30, I'm just literally telling you what the Bible says is that, you know, he pulls out and then, you know, it says, spills his seed on the ground

Starting point is 01:40:43 is what says in Genesis 38. And some people will sometimes point to that, think it's talking about masturbation, oh, that's the sin of on him. Well, that's actually not what that's talking about. It's just talking about disobedience to his duty to the Old Testament law. So what I would say, so it's not mentioned in the Bible specifically,

Starting point is 01:40:58 but there are some things that are. We're specifically forbidden against any form of lust. And I'll just very gently, you know, with the exception of one scenario that I'll talk about here in a second, I don't know how you can do that without lust. So I think that's really important. Now, unless there are situations where I would say, like, we've got couples in our church who he is in long-term military service and he's deployed, or he travels a lot, or she travels a lot. And what I would say is that, man, maybe there are some scenarios where, man, in situations like that, where your thoughts and that sort of thing are focused on and towards your spouse only.

Starting point is 01:41:48 and then you guys have maybe discussed that kind of thing. And in rare circumstances, hey, okay, to protect you from sexual sin while traveling, something like that. But what I also want to point out is that the purpose of intimacy in marriage is to foster intimacy in marriage. And that act, if becoming habitual, it does the exact opposite. You're actually separating physical intimacy from intimacy with your spouse. Anything you'd add there? No. All right.

Starting point is 01:42:18 You want to take one? Yeah. Okay. So we got this a fair number of times too, but does God forgive sex before marriage? And so, you know, it was asked a decent number of times. So I definitely want to hit that. So absolutely, yes. So I think with that is just one, just with any sin.

Starting point is 01:42:45 We own our sin. and we repent of our sin, you know, seek forgiveness, you know, where that is needed. And then accept God's forgiveness there. So what I want to make sure I got out of the right one is 1 Corinthians 6, 9 through 11. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexual immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice to homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified,

Starting point is 01:43:28 you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God. And so, so I just want you to know, like there is forgiveness. Like, if that is you, like, you, you know, when you've come to Christ and you have, you know, repented and you have become his child, like you are washed clean and um don't satan i'm just to speak very honestly and candidly when um prior to being saved i had sexual sin in my past so i entered our marriage um with with sexual sin and so um that is something that i had to deal with because i felt so much shame and you guilt over like my past and and that just felt a lot of condemnation over that and um i think satan he will use our past against us a lot especially after we've come to christ and to show us

Starting point is 01:44:31 you know just try to make us feel condemned well you are no longer you are not condemned and you are forgiven and you're washed clean and you need to move forward and walk in that newness of life that Christ has given you and believe it and just, I think, own your forgiveness. That's right, man. I like that phrase. Own your forgiveness. You have been, that's literally, you've been washed, you have been cleansed, purified in the blood of the lamb in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Starting point is 01:44:59 Receive it. Receive it. The gospel is real good news. He's so good to us. He's so good to us, yeah. Let me do this one. If somebody has led me to sexual sin, this is in a dating relationship. can the relationship be saved or should I leave?

Starting point is 01:45:15 We good? Y'all good? Okay. Can the relationship be saved or should I leave? So let me just say this was a very frequent question. So let me just say, first of all, I hate trying to give pastoral counsel when you don't know the situation. I hate it. So it's not a one-size-fits-all.

Starting point is 01:45:34 Like, for instance, I don't know what that person means by sexual sin is that, you know, we, we, we, crossed a, we kissed too much and I, you know, had, I don't know, whatever. There's, there's too broad of a category there to speak with specificity. I don't know anything about frequency. I don't know that kind of thing. So I'll just give some general principles. Number one, you should not marry somebody that does not, is not pursuing Christ-like character. If you're a Christian, you should not. So if you're noticing that this person is intentionally and consistently leading you towards sexual sin, yes, a hundred, percent you get out of there, especially if it's like, dude, they ain't even, they ain't even trying.

Starting point is 01:46:15 It's like they're intentionally trying to tempt me to abandon my Savior and commit sexual sin. Yep, get out of there. First Corinthians 618 says that you are called to flee sexual immorality. So if you're in a relationship where that person is intentionally tempting you towards sexual immorality, in order to flee sexual immorality, you need to flee that person. The purpose of dating is to evaluate a person's. character. That's like priority number one in dating, evaluate character. And you're called to guard your heart and the song of Solomon says, over and over again, do not arouse or awaken love before

Starting point is 01:46:52 it so desires. So the one thing I know I can say is if this is happening continually, it's a pattern. This person's leading you there. Yep, you need to leave because if he's not going to respect the marriage before it happens, why is he going to respect it afterwards? Anything you'd add? That's great. You want to take one? Okay. Okay. How might co-sleeping, bed sharing impact a marriage? Real bad. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:47:20 You, it might be okay for a very short duration. There was a Felicity, our middle, she was born with a birth defect that really impacted her, her breathing. We had to have five different surgeries just for that. And so there were short seasons. I had to sleep next to her to make sure she did not stop breathing. breathing in the night. But that was for a short season, not long term. So, I mean, unless you have like physical ailments, you know, where it is not safe for your child, you really, you should, yeah. Short time, newborns totally get it. Yeah. But you are actively moving away from that. And so,

Starting point is 01:48:04 you know, here's what I'd say is the big principle here, there's two, is one, like, husband, the different genders are naturally, generally inclined to different sins. What husbands can sometimes do is prioritize their job over their spouse. What wives can sometimes do is prioritize their children over their spouse. That's what we're talking about right here. So for ladies, what we need to internalize is, hey, it's a wonderful thing. You love your kids and what best for your kids. That's actually a beautiful thing. But watch out that we don't get our priorities wrong because the Bible never says that you are one flesh with your children, even though they literally came from your flesh. It does say that you are one flesh with your husband. And it's specifically talking about

Starting point is 01:48:48 sexual union when it uses the word one flesh. So your job, hey, our job, wives, is to prioritize intimacy with our husbands over our, over our children. We also have the command for the marriage bed to be honored. And the encouragement that I would give to wives is, man, if you're struggling, like, oh, but I want the best for my kids, that kind of thing. I actually want to dignify that. That's a beautiful, wonderful thing. But here's why I gently say to you is the best way to be a good parent is to be a great spouse and to create like a masterpiece marriage that creates the environment that your children are raised in.

Starting point is 01:49:30 So just very frankly, dear sir or madam, there should be things happening in your bed that would scar your children for life if they saw them. you need to create a situation in which those things can frequently happen. All right. Let me take the next one. How do you, you want to keep going? Are you getting tired? We can keep going. I think there's one more of that goes going forth with it.

Starting point is 01:49:54 Our date night reservations at 5.30, isn't it? We'll be fine. We'll be fine. How do you know, this is an important one, how do you know she was the one God had for you? I did know that pretty quick. How can we tell if we're dating who God was? wants. We had a ton of single people, young adults listening, so let me go ahead and toss this. Toss that little diagram up. So this is what I want to encourage every single person to do,

Starting point is 01:50:18 and you do it before you start dating. Draw this little X, Y axis. I went over this real briefly, let me do it again. Draw this little X, Y, axis. Top right quadrant are your must-haves. So that's things like godly character. They are a Christian. You list anything that are like must-haves. If you're a woman, they are a man, like things that are must-hast. Then top right quadrant, right, you're nice to halves. You know, man, I'm hoping they're five feet tall. They have red hair, blue eyes, gorgeous smile.

Starting point is 01:50:55 I like it. I actually, on my list, back when I was in college, I did have, I was praying for someone around 5'8 because I am so short. 5'8 and a quarter. here I am. So seriously, it's totally okay for you to have some things that are on your list like, man, I'm really hoping they're this. That's okay. That's totally okay. Write down your things that are like nice to have. Make sure they're realistic. I keep seeing these like TikTok videos of like college. It's usually college women that are like, he has to be at least six, five and make at least half a million dollars a year. And I'm like, yeah. Don't say what in the world. Don't be an idiot. You know, okay. So write down. your nice to haves, your realistic nice to haves. Then down at the bottom right, actually I'll do that one last. On the bottom left, write down your physical boundaries. So before you start dating, decide we are going to go here when we're dating and we're not going to go here.

Starting point is 01:51:55 We are going to do this and we're not going to have this type of physical contact to honor the Lord Jesus with the purity of our bodies before we're married. Write those down and decide what the boundaries are. And here's what I'd say, put the line so far back, that you're never even in a situation where you could cross sexual impurity boundaries. That's what the Bible means when it says give no opportunity to the flesh. We did this when we were dating. We were like, here's some things. We're just not going to be here, not going to go there, not going to do that.

Starting point is 01:52:25 And then this is a really important one. In the bottom right quadrant, write the name of three mature Christian friends that will help you confirm your choice. So, okay, you got this. Now when you start dating, all along the way, you can actually be plotting where are they on the X, Y, axis? And here's the thing. When you find somebody that checks all four boxes, that kind of that dot starts plotting right in the middle, like, man, I got the must-haves, I got at least some of the nice-to-haves. They're respecting the physical boundaries and my mature Christian friends are giving me a thumb.

Starting point is 01:53:07 up, that's a great way to go. That might be a good spouse for me. Yeah. Would you add anything there, Chana? Well, I was just going to make a comment, but, you know, because my mentor, Mary Beth, you know, I went through something very similar with her, but like for me, you know, I came to Christ in college, so I was saved while I was in college. And so, like, on my list, it was just that, you know, that I would not be physically attracted to anyone until I was at a place in my life. I was ready to be married. And that was true until I saw you on our on our blind date. Jana, this is a fun little fact. Before we met on our blind date, because I had a, there was a scratch on the lens of the camera that took my college photo for a little phone book at college.

Starting point is 01:53:59 Jana thought I had a tongue piercing. Yeah, I was like, I'd trust Jeff and Mary Beth. I don't know. I don't know about him. So she was like pleasantly surprised to find out I was a normal person. I don't know if I said that though on our first day. You didn't. Okay.

Starting point is 01:54:16 I was like, oh, he doesn't have one. All right. There was like a little pixelated scratch on the photo that maybe looks like that. Okay. Let's do one or two more real fast. steer. Do you have one? Okay. Yes, I do. Okay, what's the best thing? And she asked the best, thing a wife can do for her husband to build him up. So I would say, treat him with respect and make sure you're having sex. There you go. Good. That's a great answer, Shanna. Nice and

Starting point is 01:54:47 concise. That's great. All right, let's do this one number seven, or not number seven. This person asked a question, important question, if women can't have authority over men, can a wife rebuke her husband? This was how the question was worded. Now I'm going to quibble with the way the question is worded. First of all, the Bible does not say that women cannot have authority over men. It says that husbands are the head of wives. So women are not commanded by the Bible to submit to any other man than their husband.

Starting point is 01:55:22 So first of all, that's super important. Let's make that very clear. But then she's asking, can a wife, rebuke her husband. So a few things I would say here. Because first of all, let's remember the order of authority. So the authority for a Christian woman is Jesus then husband. Okay. So if lower authority of husband disagrees with higher authority of Jesus, she is commanded by the scriptures to ignore the lower authority of her husband to obey the higher authority of Jesus. So if husband wants her to sin, she's like, nope, I'm out because I'm on team Jesus even before I'm on team you.

Starting point is 01:56:02 So that's the situation. Also remember, a lot of people forget this. Hey, when you're talking to Christians in marriage, remember, you're both Christians. So all of the Bible commands about how Christians should relate to each other, they still apply to you. So yeah, there are sometimes when it is appropriate for a Christian to lovingly, gently, Ephesians for speak the truth in love. So the answer to that question is yes. There are sometimes now,

Starting point is 01:56:35 do you want to do that in a respectful way, a gentle way, a way that doesn't like undercut him, that kind of thing as best you can. Yeah. Sure you do. Sure you do. But the answer is, yeah.

Starting point is 01:56:48 With love and respect, just like hopefully you would be with anybody you have to talk to about a difficult situation. That's right. You want to take one? You got one more? You know, I went through. I think we hit all the ones that I had. Let me do one last one. Do we have the emotional infidelity one? Yeah. Let's end on this one. I hate ending on a downer, but this was a really frequent question.

Starting point is 01:57:14 It's a big deal. It's a big deal. Would you say? Yeah. So first of all, it says, basically they're asking, what do you do when emotional infidelity happens? So first of all, we want to be really clear for everybody. When you get married, what you're doing is you are drawing a circle of intimacy so tight that no one else is ever allowed in that circle. So emotional intimacy with somebody of the opposite sex should not be happening. So I say this all the time. No workwife.

Starting point is 01:57:49 No, my best friend's a girl, but that's okay. Like, no, when Jan, I mean, we don't have to tell a story because it's a podcast long. but like when jan and i got married there were girls that i was friends with in college that it was completely appropriate for me to be friends with and then when we got married because they weren't married they thought that friendship would continue as normal and i had to just go through with all of those friendships and be like hey i'm really sorry like actually we're not going to message each other anymore like we used to about your life and your day and how you're doing in your heart because i got a wife now and that so to be really clear so that everybody knows that that

Starting point is 01:58:25 should not happen. Right. Because you should not have emotional intimacy with some of the opposite sex. It's not your spouse if you're married. Now here's what I would say when that happens a few things. Number one is it's the person who was sinned against. It's their job to draw the targets to give you a chance to rebuild trust and it's your job to hit those targets. So this could be a whole podcast but just to give a concise, abbreviated answer where I can't say all the things that need to be said, what I would say is it's not fair to trap that person in a situation

Starting point is 01:59:01 where you're never going to give them trust again. But trust should be slowly gained and quickly lost. So if you do discover that emotional intimacy has happened with another person, that's a very serious, very hurtful, very devastating, transgression of the marriage covenant. So the person who was sinned against after repentance happens, confession happens, we cut off that relationship.

Starting point is 01:59:30 Okay, we're done with that. We don't remain friends with that person, try to fix it. No, no, no, we're done with that. Now what we need to do is the person who was sent against needs to draw clear targets. Hey, I need you to hit this target. Hey, that may look like, man, you work with that person really closely. Over the course of the next little period of time, I need you to find a new job. or hey, I need you to never text or have a, you know, a message relationship with that person ever again.

Starting point is 01:59:58 Like, whatever it is. You draw that I need you, I need to have access to your phone and your text messages. By the way, Jan and I, we don't have stuff hidden in our marriage. No. You need, it's the person who's send against job to draw the targets. And then, hey, bro, if you're the one who transgressed, it's not your job to complain about her targets. It's your job to hit those targets. And as you do that, over time and consistency, you will rebuild trust and the relationship can be restored.

Starting point is 02:00:26 It's good. Anything you add? No. This is the longest podcast we've ever done. Yeah. It is. Jan will you close us in prayer and then let's go on a date? Glad to.

Starting point is 02:00:36 Father, thank you so much for the gift of marriage. And I just pray for just all the people who are listening, all of the, especially wives this week, Father. I just pray that you will just speak to her and come. for her. And I just, Father, I, you know, whenever, if there was any area of conviction, Father, I just pray that, that you'll remind her of your grace and that she can move forward, walking in repentance, and she can do that with joy and excitement about what you want to do and what you want to restore in their marriage. Father, I pray that you will build up strong marriages. I pray that you will be their solid foundation. I pray that you'll just keep leading them back to the cross and

Starting point is 02:01:19 focusing on you. And I just pray that you'll fill their lives and their marriages with more of the Holy Spirit and that you'll just lead them in your guidance and help them to each of us, help each of us to love you more each day. Father, we love you. And it's in Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thanks for tuning in to live free with Pastor Josh Howardton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review, and share the podcast, and don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Point Church online every weekend and find more resources at lakepoint.church slash live free. We'll see you next time.

Live Free with Josh Howerton - What Wives and Husbands Need to Hear about S*x in Marriage | Live Free with Josh Howerton

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