Locked On Mariners - Daily Podcast On the Seattle Mariners - Do the Mariners and Blue Jays Line Up For a Big Trade?

Episode Date: November 8, 2022

We are two days away from the official start of free agency, but the Seattle Mariners will undoubtedly use the trade market to acquire talent as well. Corey Brock of The Athletic proposed an interesting trade between Seattle and Toronto, and it's oddly similar to a deal Ty and Colby have discussed too. What do they think of the proposal? How does their idea compare? Plus, the guys' breakdown the fantastic year of Cal Raleigh. Want to win a Cal Raleigh autographed card? Stick around until the end of the episode to find out how.Be sure to follow or subscribe to Locked On Mariners wherever you prefer your podcasts! For questions and other inquiries, email: [e-mail] the show on Twitter: @LO_Mariners | @danegnzlz | @CPat11For more of Ty and Colby, check out their Patreon: patreon.com/controlthezone/BetOnlineBetOnline.net has you covered this season with more props, odds and lines than ever before. BetOnline – Where The Game Starts! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The athletic has proposed a trade between the Blue Jays and Mariners. That is very similar to an idea. Colby and I have talked about over on our Patreon show. We're going to discuss both options and talk about how Toronto and Seattle matches up in a trade overall and also review the 2022 season of Cal Big Dumper Raleigh. Colby, hit it. You are Locked on Mariners. Your daily Seattle Mariners podcast. Part of the Locked on podcast network, your team every day.

It is Tuesday, November 8th, 2022. This is Tadang Gazzalus and Colby Patnaud for the Lockdown Mariners podcast. Thank you so much for making us your first listen. Subscribe, like, and turn on alerts if you're watching on YouTube, or subscribe and leave a five-star review on your preferred podcast platform. If you like what you hear, and if you want to hear from us even more, please consider signing up for our Patreon. The link as well as our social accounts is in the description below.

On the show today, we'll be going over a trade proposal that was crafted by Mariner's writer, Corey Brock, and Blue Jays writer Caitlin McGrath and also talk about our very own Blue Jays Mariners trade idea. Plus we're going to continue our season reviews with a look back on the incredible season of Cal

Raleigh. But Colby, I have been talking your ear off for the last few weeks about the possibility of the Mariners trading for Teosker Hernandez. I have come up with several ways to potentially get that done. I have

floated ideas to you. And finally I got you to buy in a little bit on it and yesterday as we were talking about our offseason plan yes yes yes because I I fixed no I fixed your deal so that it was buy in a bowl I fixed your original idea that's why I started to buy in you wouldn't have even thought about this player had I not mentioned him you would have never thought about the possibility of trading for him if I did and you still have been floating around your idiot trade offer until I feel fixed it for you. So there you go. Teamwork. You can hear how that all went down on our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash control the zone.

But yes, so we finally started to hammer out this trade that, and I've talked about this a little bit on Lockdown Mariners that would land the Mariners to Ayosker Hernandez with Chris Flexen going back to Toronto as one of the pieces. And we also, as we were putting together our trade, and we still haven't finished it because this is, again, for our offseason plan that we do every single year for the Mariners. And we'll talk about that a little bit more once it's out and available to everyone on here on Locked-on Mariners. But lo and behold, I wake up this morning and find a very similar trade package heading back to Toronto for a different Toronto player, but the same exact trade package that you and I had preliminarily put together on yesterday's show for not Teoscar Hernandez, but Santiago Espinal.

And this was crafted by Corey Brock, Mariners beat reporter over at the Athletic and Caitlin McGrath of the Jay's side of the athletic in which the Mariners received Santiago Espinal, second baseman slash third baseman from the Jays, along with right-hand pitching prospect Alejandro Maline for Chris Flex and Penn Murphy. Colby, you and I had Chris Flex and Penn Murphy head into Toronto for Teasca Hernandez. We'll get more into that idea a little bit later on. But what do you think about this deal? Because this probably seems a little more realistic than a Tay Oscar Hernandez deal.

But does this really move the needle at all for you? Because for me, not really. I'll explain why in just a second, but I want to hear your thoughts. Yeah, so I guess the kind of issue with this deal is that Espinall is a good player, but he's not a great player. He's probably not a guy that you want playing every single day. He's a very good defender at both second base and third base. Can play shortstop if you need him to.

And he does some things well to play it. I mean, he hit 267 this year. He's a career 280 hitter. Those are both well above league average. you know he doesn't strike out 91st percentile and k percentage this year 92nd percentile and whiff you know he doesn't chase either puts the ball in play a lot doesn't doesn't walk as much as you would like for a guy with his profile and the reason he's you know the reason why you would like him to walk more is that there

really isn't any power or not a lot of it so what you have here is you have a guy who ideally probably is a utility guy who plays you know three four times a week and you know in a pinch if he's your everyday second baseman that's fine but you have to get power from somewhere and pairing espinal with jp. Crawford

it'd be pretty good defensively but there's no power coming out of the middle of that infield which means you have to go get it somewhere else which is an issue so Espinall is a nice player. And if you, hypothetically, right, you went out and you signed, you know, Carlos Correy or one of the short stops and Crawford was your second basement and Espinall kind of, you know, kind of played around in a few spots two or three times, four times a week, then fine.

But Espinall is the everyday second baseman, not really something that moves the needle much for me. also it's worth noting that Espinall is a bit of a platoon situation against left-handed pitching this last year he hit 301, 375, 451 that's a very good player

but against Rides he was 256 304 342 that's that's really there's no damage there there's no walks there that's just not a great player he's not a burner on the bases either

you can steal a bag here or there but that's not really his game. He's a good player. And he is a player that would make the Mariners bench better. And, you know, look, he's better than Dillmore. Not saying much, but he is. He's a little bit better than Dillmore. He's safer than Sam Haggerty.

He's safer than Dillam Moore. And that's fine. If you get him and like you said, and he's your, you know, your first utility guy off of your bench, then fine. totally fine with that. But if this is your answer to second base, I think there's better options out there and I'm not just talking about the four middle infielders

that are hitting the open market. I think even if you have a fallback option there, if you don't land any of those four guys, they're going to be better players that can be had than Santiago Espinall to be the guy at second base. 267, 322, 370 on the year. that's a 99 WRC plus he was one of the better defenders at second base in in all of baseball and that's why he ended up with a 2.3 F4 but like you mentioned no power really what to speak of you know 370 slugging percentage as I mentioned seven home runs 51 RBI not a not a particularly great base runner either this year had a negative 1.5 base running rating by fan graphs and also stole only six base runner. basis so he doesn't really provide you much there.

This is basically just Adam Frazier. Yeah, it's the same idea. And, you know, Jerry DePoto in the past, when he's looked to add to a contending team, a playoff contending team, has added guys like Santiago Espinal. I think that Espinall kind of fits in a similar category to the likes of D. Gordon, Malick Smith, et cetera. You know, and all those guys are a little bit different. different in their own ways, of course, but it's the same idea.

It's a contact heavy hitter who doesn't really strike out, plays good defense, and that's about it. And that's fine, and that's good to have in your lineup, but that's not, the Mariners need to do better at second base. So as a utility ad, yeah, totally fine. But if that's your second baseman, it's hard not to feel like you failed, at least a little bit this offseason. Yeah. It's like the cost the cost is fine too

Yeah, yeah Plus we should mention you know Santiago Espinall is under club control Through the 2026 season It doesn't have free agency until 2027 so You know you get him for a while but also again he's Kind of just an average player right? I mean you're not it's not like you're getting Years of club control in this deal either because flex and as for

four four years and And Murphy has, I think, five. So, yeah, it's, like, it's a fine trade. It's, it totally works. The Mariners would clear about seven, eight million bucks off of their payroll, which, you know, I guess could be used somewhere else. But so the deal is fine. It's just, there's not a lot of impact there to the everyday lineup.

It doesn't really solve any problems by itself, if that makes sense. Yeah. And so I just stacking up this deal to the one that we have for Teoscar Hernandez. I mean, obviously I'm going to lead towards the Teoscar Hernandez deal because Teoscar Hernandez is just flat out of a better player than Santiago Ospinal. But I also think that this that this kind of return still works for Hernandez, even though he's a better player. And I will explain why in just a moment.

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you're listening to the lockdown mariner's podcast. Thank you again for making us your first listen. So how could the Mariners get to Oscar Hernandez, a much better player than Santiago, Espinall, we'll just say that. I think that's pretty clear cut for more or less the same return that Corey Brock and Caitlin McGrath came together on for Espinal.

Well, as I mentioned, Espinall is under club control through 2026. To Oscar Hernandez, meanwhile, is hitting free agency at the end of the next season. So next winter, he's only under club control for one year and is currently projected to make in arbitration, his third year of arbitration, $14.3 million. It's a lot of money. Now, the Blue Jays are not a cash strap team, and that's not the angle that I'm taking with this whatsoever. But a corner outfield, we've talked about this with the Mitch Hanager discussion, that cornering, outfield is relatively one of the easiest positions that you can find on the high end for relatively

cheap on the market there are going to be other options out there for the blue jays to fill that hole and look the blue jays at the end of the day and the blue jays know this at this point because they've learned very well in the playoffs this past month and in the last couple years uh overall that, you know, they have all the offense of the world, and that hasn't gotten them anywhere. They need pitching. Pitching has been the issue for them. Pitching is the reason why they haven't been able to reach

what they think is their ceiling, which is being a perennial World Series contender. And so we've already seen that they are willing to sacrifice some offense in order to get pitching back. They are open to trading Alejandro Kirk for someone like Pablo Lopez. They are apparently, according to John Marosi this morning, willing to part with one of their catchers for one of the Tigers relievers or two of the Tigers relievers. And presumably in that instance, that would be Danny Jansen.

So there's already breadcrumbs here leading us to the conclusion that the Blue Jays are willing to subtract from that lineup and maybe be open more so to replenishing their lineup via free agency or via via. another trade, whatever, to help fill that hole in order to land the pitching that they so desire. And Chris Flexen isn't sexy. He's not. He's not an attractive option, but the starting pitching market is not very good. There are options. There are going to be some good pitchers that do hit free agency, or that have already hit

free agency technically, that are going to be attracted to the Blue Jays. But that well is going to dry up really quick. And Chris Flexen is a number. number four number five starter who has proven that he can eat innings and you have him for four years of club control and by the way we were wrong on a on an earlier episode a couple weeks ago when we talked about flexing situation he does not have a player option that was spot track's fault for miss uh for uh for uh listing that incorrectly that turned into a player option when he hit his innings count all that did was just guarantee him eight million dollars for this upcoming upcoming season and then he hits arbitration for the next three seasons so this is a number four number five, Innings eater who can actually, who's going to be cheaper than really anything you can find on the market for the next three years after this year.

And on top of that, you get Penn Murphy for whatever it is, like five or six years who, and Murphy was, you know, one of the better relievers for a time in one of the best bullpins in all a baseball. For one year of a corner outfielder,

no matter how good he is, I feel like those values balance each other out. Well, good job putting everybody to sleep. It's also worth noting that Penn Murphy, sorry, it's also worth noting that I think that Matt Festa also works in this deal. We haven't talked about that, Ty, but like, if the Blue Jays really want Matt Festa instead of, you know, Penn Murphy, fine, whatever. Yeah.

It's just about trading from your bullpen. And obviously your rotation depth as well. You know, you mentioned that, you know, the Blue Jays aren't exactly cash strapped, and that's true. But we do have to remember, you know, they are paying you say Kukuchi, $13 million. They are paying, uh, Hizun Rue, $20 million. Uh, you know, I believe both Vlad, I believe Vlad Jr. is Arb two. And I believe, uh, Bichette is Arb one. They're going to have to start paying those guys quite a bit here.

Um, so while, yes, the, the Blue Jays aren't like cash strapped. They're not desperate to clear payroll. it does, there is some appeal to them clearing potentially, you know, six, seven million dollars of payroll and collecting club control pitching for an outfielder. You know, it's, it's probably not ideal for them, but I think they're probably going to end up trading to Oscar this winter. And I think they could really use a lefty bat anyways. I think, you know, a solid left-handed hitting outfielder would really balance out that lineup a little more. And we know that they had interest in Benetendee, because it's a free agent.

And I think Jock Peterson makes some sense up there. You know, they're going to look to replace Riemeltapia anyways. So, yeah, Michael Conforto makes sense up there. You know, Brandon Nimmo makes some sense up there. So I think a left-handed outfielder actually helps balance them out a little bit better anyway. So I think that's what they're going to try and do. They need pitching. I mean, really after you have Minowah and Gossman and then you have question marks.

Burrios wasn't very good this year. Riu can't stay healthy, or at least hasn't been able to stay healthy. You kind of look at, you say, we know the story about Yasei Kikuchi, and it played out exactly the same way in Toronto. Are you sure you don't need me to run through it again for you, the entire backstory of Yusay Kikuchi? I got it. I got it. So, yeah, so I think they're going to be interested in pitching and, you know, getting a number four, number five for $5 million, saving six. million dollars in payroll space and getting a quality, you know, middle reliever, it's not bad.

It's not bad. Maybe you have to tackle prospect on there, you know, maybe a Peralander Barrowa type to get it done. That's fine. But this is, you know, this is the Mariners trading from a position of strength on their end and the Blue Jays trading from a position of strength on their end. So I think there's some mutual, there's some mutually beneficial aspects to this trade for both teams. I don't know how realistic it is. But I think it's probably pretty darn close to the ballpark. So we'll see what if the Mariners, I should say, are interested in Tayasca and if the Blue Jays are interested in Flexen.

But we do know that there were contenders interested in Chris Flexen at the deadline. The Blue Jays certainly fall into that category of contender. And by the way, should mention that the one that the reporter that first brought that to our attention was Corey Brock. Right. And, you know, he's worked closely on this deal with a Jay's beat reporter who may have heard that the Blue Jays are interested or were interested at a time in Chris Flexen. Yep. So on top of that, you know, on top of the questions about Rios and Kikuchi and Ryu,

the Blue Jays are also going to lose Ross Stripling to free agency. And it doesn't seem likely that they're going to bring him back because there are reports that he might end up making $20 million a year after the really good year that he had, which is mind-blowing to me. I would be surprised if he actually ends up getting that. But it does seem like he's going to end up walking. And, you know, Pete Walker, their pitching coach,

is revered as one of the greatest pitching minds in baseball right now. He's revered as just an absolute pitching wizard. And maybe they view Chris Flexen as someone that they can turn into their next Ross Stripling. Right. And it's kind of a similar profile when you really think about it too. So, you know, I think there's going to be a lot of interest in someone like Flexon.

And, you know, he's just a year removed from being a three-win pitcher on, you know, band graphs like that's it's pretty good that's pretty good when you when you factor in that he's been able to stay healthy for the last few years he looks you know reinvented since this time in korea uh i think and the fact that he's going to be you know like you're going to have to pay him eight million dollars now but then you're going to go into arbitration he's going to be really really cheap compared to the rest of the market like there's a lot to like there if you're another team looking to acquire someone like chris flexen right and that works but both ways to you can be like well why wouldn't the mirrors want to be interested in

having a guy like that on their team why do they want to trade that well because they have four really really good pitchers and maybe they'll do something on the back end there to uh fill out the uh fifth spot a little bit better than they do right now so anyway i think it makes some sense um and uh yeah anyway all right so cow rally big year for cow rally uh a little bit of a big year right You know, he had a decent end to the, to the season. It was not a great start to the, to the season. However, for Rale, he entered the season, basically the third catcher on this roster behind Tom Murphy and Luis Terenz.

Did not have a good rookie season in 2021. Definitely, you know, with the bat. And then even a little bit behind the plate as well. The defense was not particularly great. He gets sent down. and then Tom Murphy suffers his season ending injury, and lo and behold, Raleigh's back in the marriage clubhouse

within what eight days, nine days. And from that point forward, Colby, Cal Raleigh, was one of the best catchers in all of baseball. I don't know what he did down in Tacoma, what changed for him, but he ends up slashing 220,

289, 509, 509 with a 127 WRC plus. 29.2% strikeout rate, 8.8% walk rate, 26 home runs, 62 RBI. Of course, hits the drought ender as a pretty big postseason as well. This is a guy that we've talked about could be a legitimate MVP candidate if this is just a glimpse as to what he could eventually be in a few years time. I mean, where do you want to start with this? Because this is a really incredible start and a story for Raleigh, who, again, it just seemed dead to rights. Seemed like he was just nodded already. And then in a week's time just morphs himself slowly but surely into one of the best catchers in baseball.

What did you see over the course of the season? How did you see him progress? Yeah. It was pretty interesting. The one thing with Cal is that he's still striking out a little bit, but even that got better towards the end of the year. I think we saw kind of the biggest leap from Cal actually from, you know, the regular season to the playoffs.

It was kind of weird. You know, we saw Cal and obviously the home runs really stand out, but particularly in the playoffs, we saw him have just some really amazing at bats against some really good pitching. We saw him. the what was it a double against gossaman maybe maybe that was game one against mino but uh we saw him you know draw walks against gossaman we saw him uh drive fastballs to the left center field gap for doubles um as a left-handed hitter um we saw him recognize recognized split finger uh in the dirt we saw him

we saw him we saw him recognized slider um his pitch recognition skill seemed to get just significantly better uh in the playoffs which is weird and that's just, you know, probably a sign of him just seeing the ball very well at that time. But, you know, I think it's really fascinating. In the playoffs, Cal Raleigh looked like a, not just a home run hitter or not just a good hitting catcher. He looked like a premier bat, like somebody who could hit 270, 280, and, you know, get on base 35% of the time and hit 35 home runs. Like, he looked like a legitimate All-Star bat who also is a, fantastic defensive catcher. So I think that's probably the ceiling what we saw from Raleigh,

particularly in the Toronto series. That's probably the ceiling for him. But yeah, I think we also saw it, you know, throughout the year, we just saw him get, start to recognize things a little bit better. He started to pick out, spin a little bit better. He started to chase a little bit less. And he was doing all of that with, you know, basically half a thumb. So. I mean, that's crazy, right? You know, you talk about how much he improved from into the regular season to the playoffs and he's doing that with torn ligaments

and his thumb, half of his thumb broken off basically. He catches 236 pitches and 18 innings of baseball in the game three of the ALDS. He's a machine, man.

That's like and over the course of the season you also saw him become a leader in that clubhouse. you saw him really take charge in big time moments. And, you know, the rapport that he built with this pitching staff cannot be understated. This is a lot of different arms and a lot of different styles, both in that bullpen and in that rotation. And he caught them all beautifully and called masterful games for really all of them,

especially Luis Castillo. You know, they brought over Kurt Casale, you know, to have that familiarity with Castillo from their days in Cincinnati and Colby. I mean, Castillo's best starts, though, were with Cal Raleigh. It kind of worked the opposite way, right? And when Casale caught it honestly felt like Castillo had his worst starts of the year, right? You think about the Oakland start. You think about the start in Anaheim.

Like Casale was catching those games. So, you know, overall, like what Raleigh was able to do on the defensive end. And then to be, you know, we talked about it. leading up to the post season. Who's going to be the other guy outside of Julio? Well, Gino was one of those guys. Cal was the other guy. Cal was massive, massive offensively this fall.

Yeah, you know, it's pretty interesting. You kind of look at his year broken down by month. April, we know he was terrible. But 32 WRC plus. He comes up in May. He's okay, 75. You can live with that with his defense. And then in June,

it was a 162 WRC plus 104 in July 99 in August which was his his worst month since he basically became the everyday catcher and he was still a 99 and then you know as we talked about in September and into the playoffs

171 WRC plus in the last month yeah he hit he hit 254 325 634 634 in the final month and some change of the regular season and the playoffs, 10% walk rate.

His walk rate actually went up pretty significantly from July to August and then even more significantly in August to September. So this is a guy, again, he's going to strike out. That's going to be a part of his game. You know, if he didn't, then he's the best catcher in baseball because J.T. Rolamuto can't touch Cal Raleigh's power. Like it doesn't exist. They're on a different plane in that.

And that's standpoint. And defensively, they're not all that far off. So I think there is a very real case to be made that Cal Raleigh is already one of the five or six best catchers in Major League Baseball. And I think, you know, next year he's got a very good shot of making an All-Star team. Again, assuming he can stay healthy. And if he repeats what he did in September in October, which I know, I know. But like, okay, he doesn't have to slug 670. All right.

But if he can slug like 500. Let's dare to dream here, though. Let's dare to dream. If Raleigh hits 250, 325, 500 with his normal defense next year, he's going to get down-ballot MVP votes and he will have earned them because he was a four-win player this year. And he really didn't even start to, you know, take off until June. Like, the guy's incredible. And honestly, I think having Tom Murphy around next year, hopefully, hopefully, I think that'll actually help Cal perform even better. It'll take some of the pressure off.

it'll give him a veteran mentor. And, you know, it can help just, I mean, for the love of God, like how many times did we say Cal Raleigh really needs to not catch today? And he was in the lineup anyways because the Mariners didn't have a viable backup option. But they didn't feel like they did. So I think Taventon Murphy back will actually help Cal Raleigh. Keep him fresher, hopefully, you know, allow him to maybe sit against some of the tougher lefties that he had to face this year.

but Raleigh is as weird as it is to say Raleigh is the Mariner's second superstar. Like he is relative to the catcher position. He's a star of that position. And we'll see if he can repeat it. You know, there's always a possibility. He takes a step back. But, you know, you look at just the trajectory he was on towards the end of the year. And you're talking about a guy who is going to start the year.

It's probably one of the two or three favorites to, make the all-star team for the American League as a catcher. He was just insane. And I think we are seeing him develop into a star nationally, too. You know, I think he became a little bit of a household name, you know, with the great postseason performance and being able to be the one that ended the drought and everything. And, you know, he was one of the leaders in the comeback in Toronto, all that. And also, you know, just the nickname, right?

It took baseball Twitter by storm with the whole big dumper thing. So and of course like it's I mean you look at that guy right with big beefy hips and is Do you know careful the the big the big the big dumper the big jumper and you look at that guy And you know his name is big dumper right like you got to like you're going to fall in love with a character like that in baseball right This is a league in which the fans champion guys that look like Andrew Chafin right Cal Raleigh is naturally going to be a star right it's yeah it sure was something um no i just i feel like just from like a very like when you when you take everything into account you know age contract performance there may not be a

catcher that you would want more in baseball than cow rolley right now um again you factor in age contract all that stuff raleigh is already one of the four or five best you don't have to pay him anything for the next few years. And he's 25 years old. Plus, you know, your catcher's not nicknamed Big Dumber. I'm just saying. Exactly. Exactly. Yes.

Hey, Ty, you know what? Speaking of Big Dumber. Oh, here we go. Here we go. Good job. Good job. I'm proud of you. Yeah.

We are doing a giveaway. What? Yeah, I know. Now, we are a little ways away from getting to this particular point, but if we get to 5,000 subs on YouTube, we are going to give away this lovely autographed Cal Raleigh card right there. So we are about 800 away. You guys have about a month from today to get us there.

But you guys can't even get us to the Taylor-Tremel one. So I will happily keep the Cal Raleigh card if nobody wants it. So it's really up to you guys, though. But I will happily keep a Cal Raleigh Big Dumber autograph. card in my collection but you get us to 5k they can be one of yours and if you want to take this mug you know what's cards help us get to these goals up on the screen right now if you're watching on YouTube again 4,500 YouTube subscribers were given away a Taylor Tremel autograph card 4,500 YouTube subscribers and 3,000 Twitter followers and I know

that we are making a little bit of climb towards that goal on Twitter I think we're nearing 500 followers on Twitter so follow us over there if you haven't already at LO underscore mirrors when we get there we're giving away Jared Kellnick autograph card and again numbered numbered number two and then if we get to 5,000 like Colby mentioned Carol Raleigh autograph card help us out folks so that is going to do it for our show Thank you so much for joining us here on the Lockdown Mariners podcast. For Colby Pat Nod, I'm Tadang Gonzalez. Be sure to give us a follow on Twitter at L0 underscore Mariners.

You can follow me at Dan Gonzalez, the C-A-N-ZL-Z, and Colby at C-P-E-E-G-A-T-L-L-E. You can also find all that stuff in the description of this episode. And thank you again for making us your first listen. For your next list and check out the Lockdown Sports Today podcast featuring the biggest stories of the day, plus instant reactions, big game recaps and the take of the day. It's available on the Onesty app. and wherever you get your podcast just like us.

And with that, have yourself a beautiful baseball day and we'll see you tomorrow. Peace.