Locked On Mariners - Daily Podcast On the Seattle Mariners - Mariners Offense Produces Another Dud in Loss to Twins
Episode Date: June 14, 2022Hosts Ty Dane Gonzalez and Colby Patnode react to the Mariners' 3-2 loss to the Twins, preview Tuesday night's pitching matchup between Joe Ryan and Logan Gilbert and discuss whether or not it's time ...to move Jesse Winker out of the leadoff spot.Be sure to follow or subscribe to Locked On Mariners wherever you prefer your podcasts! For questions and other inquiries, email: lockedonmariners@gmail.comFollow the show on Twitter: @LO_Mariners | @danegnzlz | @CPat11 | @InsideMarinersFor more of Ty and Colby, check out their Patreon: patreon.com/controlthezone/Rock AutoAmazing selection. Reliably low prices. All the parts your car will ever need. Visit RockAuto.com and tell them Locked On sent you.Blue NileMake your moment sparkle with jewelry from Bluenile.com, and LOCKED ON SPORTS listeners get $50 off purchases of $500 or more using code LOCKEDON. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
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Another flat performance from the offense last night gives the Mariners their third loss in four games.
We'll be discussing that more on today's episode of Locked on Mariners.
Colby, hit it.
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I'm Tiding Gonzalez.
He's Colby Patnode.
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We greatly appreciate it. So we're going to be talking about last night's loss to the twins,
3 to 2, the Marinus Fell to the Twins. We're also going to be talking about Jesse Winker.
Is it time to move him out of the leadoff spot? And we also have a really fun pitchy matchup going on tonight between Joe Ryan and Logan Gilbert.
We'll get into that later on in the show. But first, let's reflect back on.
yesterday's ball game. Three to two, the loss
against the Minnesota Twins to open
up this three game set
down at Team Mobile Park.
Chris Flexen gave up a two-run
home run to Byron to start this
game. Middle, middle fastball.
Just can't do it against Buckson who
entered last night's game, leading
Major League Baseball and F-4 in
the month of June. He
has been sensational and he
was once again a problem
last night for the Mariners.
But Flexen did kind of settle in a little
bit there after that home run.
He goes five innings, just limited the damage to the two run home run.
And seven hits, five strikeouts, two walks.
He also led the game in swings and misses with 15.
I believe that also might be a season high for him because that's typically not a huge part of Flexon's game.
So seeing 15 from him kind of jarring to say the least, frankly.
The Mariners' offense was a little bit better than it was against Cutter Crawford and the Red Sox the day before, but still not very good and still not capable of taking advantage of some opportunities that they had, especially late in the game.
Taylor Tremel had a home run.
That snapped a 0 for 18 skid that he was on at the time.
He also walked.
And then was replaced by Scott's service instead of Dylan Moore in the ninth inning with a
righty on the mound, but we might
talk about that later on. That was a weird
decision by service. A couple of weird decisions
by service in this game.
Cal Raleigh, still
going strong. He led the team
in hard hit balls last night.
Three of them. Two of them
didn't record a
hit, and they were the two hardest
hit balls that he had, but the third
hardest hit ball that he had actually went for
a double in this one. So,
Raleigh's still going strong. He's fourth in
catcher F war right now for the month of June.
he's having himself a nice little month.
Of course, we talked about him.
I believe it was on Friday.
And so he's kept it going ever since then.
So Colby, you know, what's your just overall takeaway from this loss?
You know, is it service?
Is it the bats?
What is it?
Talk to me here.
It's the players.
I mean, there's only so much that Scott Service and his staff can do.
Players have to play better.
and you look at
you look at guys like Jesse Winker
who actually had a decent day last night
but it's just not near enough what you need from him
you know you look at guys like
A Eugenio Suarez who had another disaster of a night
that's three in a row more or less
I mean Abraham Toro went O for four with three strikeouts
his OPS is down around 555 now
and going down
Yeah, you just, you didn't get enough from those guys.
You know, the twins threw seven arms at you.
And all you could muster was six hits against really only one plus arm out there in that bullpen.
And it's Duran and whatever.
I mean, when he has success against you, fine.
But the Mariners only hit two balls hard off of, off with the twins bullpen in the
Twins bullpen, not that good.
So it's a sad sight.
You know, 11 strikeouts.
This team is just not going to, this team doesn't have enough power throughout their lineup that it can survive striking out 10 plus times.
I think they've now struck out 10 times or more in five of their last seven games.
You can't do it.
You're not going to generate enough runs because you don't have that power.
You also don't have that depth.
So God forbid, Ty France has a one for four.
you're probably not going to score a ton of runs, and that's not fair to tie France.
That's not a good recipe for success.
I mean, nobody last night had more than one hit.
You know, only three guys reached base twice or sorry, only three guys or two guys hit reach base
more than once last night.
J.P. Crawford and Cal Rale are the only two guys who hit more than one ball hard last night.
It's just a mess.
Everybody, but Adam Frazier had a strikeout.
and Dillemore had a strikeout last night.
It's just this lineup is not equipped to strike out 10, 11, 12, 13 times and consistently put up
runs, especially when Jesse Winker's not hitting right now.
Ty France is in a little bit of a slump.
He's starting to come out of it.
Suarez is going through one of his, his, you know, awful stretches where he doesn't look
like a big league hitter.
Frazier is starting to kind of come back around a little bit.
having a pretty nice home stand, some bad luck here and there.
But Toro's been a nothing.
You know, Tremel's been on a pretty big slide before that home run last night.
It's just there's so many easy outs in this lineup right now that you just,
you have to put the ball in play, particularly against guys like Chris Archer and
Caleb Dielbar.
It's Jarrell Cotton.
Like, these guys aren't great.
They're not good.
And the Mariners just couldn't really.
threaten them even.
So yeah,
it's a bummer.
But to me it comes down to strikeouts.
You can't strike out 10, 11, 12 times.
Not with this lineup and expect to win.
You have to put the ball in play.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's another favorable pitching matchup on paper that they just blow pretty much.
You know, Archer came into this game,
sporting a, you know, walks per nine of well over four.
He had an ERA of, you know, 365, but that came with, you know,
Phipps and in the low fours.
And, you know, you just, you got to be able to take advantage of that.
And they just didn't.
They get one runoff of him.
And it was unearned.
That's just unacceptable if you're the Mariners.
And then you mentioned all the strikeouts, et cetera.
They need to be better.
The offense needs to be better.
And of course, Julio Rodriguez was out of the lineup for most of this game.
He pinched in the ninth.
And that kind of, you know, that was.
the Trammell decision.
Would have rather seen Tramel hit
against the ready Emilio Paghan
instead of Dillon and just had
Julio pinch out for more on the next
at bat, but whatever.
But yeah, this shows you that you take
one of these guys out of the lineup,
whether that's Julio, whether that's JP, or
whether that's Thai France, and it's just
it's an ultimate disaster.
And so,
well, and Julio's been
sliding too. So, you know,
it's frustrating thing.
is you lost three of your four and in those four games,
you have not faced a pitcher that is better than a number four starter.
In fact,
I would say you haven't faced one that's of quality number five.
Cutter Crawford is not number five.
Rich Hill is barely a number five.
Michael Waka, I guess, is the one exception.
He's probably a four.
Archer is a fringe five.
And you just,
aside from,
you know,
aside from handling your business against Michael Waka,
you haven't had any kind of consistent offense.
You know, it sucks for the pitching staff.
They've allowed five runs in their last 18 innings.
Two losses.
That's unacceptable.
Well, and the Mariners entered this homestand leading Major League Baseball in Home WRC Plus.
They were at 134 WRC Plus at T-Mobile Park heading into this homestand.
And that has, of course, taken a pretty significant dive.
There has been no sense of home cooking whatsoever, aside from that game against Waka.
and it's really weird that of all the pitchers that they actually got to in this it was it was waka who's had a great year so far at least in terms of the numbers right
and then they they struggled against you know archer hill and and crawford that's just um you can't do it can't have it
just can't have it frankly they need to be able to take advantage of these these matchups more
because they just they aren't and it and it's crazy too because we know that there's
capable because they they have fared pretty well against actual good pitchers this year.
It's just it's it's mind boggling what has happened against these lower tier arms with the
Mariners offense.
But, you know, hopefully they figure it out.
Joe Ryan on the bump tonight for the twins.
And I mean, he's been really good.
So, hey, maybe the Mariners have a shot tonight.
So maybe they're going to, you know, explode for six, seven runs tonight or what have you.
That's kind of been the way that this,
This year is gone. We'll be talking more about that series in just a moment, but real quick,
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So let's talk about tonight's matchup between Joe Ryan and Logan Gilbert.
Gilbert was not.
against the Astros in his last start.
In fact, I would say that relative to what he can do, he was pretty bad.
He gave up seven hits.
He did go six innings and only gave up three runs, but it was not very pretty.
What are you hoping to see out of Gilbert tonight as he looks to bounce back?
Yeah, you know, with Gilbert all starts with the fastball command.
We all know this.
And there have been bouts where he has struggled to control that pitch.
We remember the little trip down to Florida where he walked.
I think four guys in each of those starts, it's something that happens on occasion.
And it's not something Gilbert is equipped to pitch around.
He'll be okay.
He'll work through it.
But he's not going to give you the desired results unless he has that basketball command.
So it starts there.
You know, it's, I think the change up is going to be a pretty important pitch tonight.
The twins don't have a ton of lefties in their lineup.
But Louisa Rise is, you know, the best.
hitter in baseball right now, at least in terms of average.
Max Kepler certainly has some big time power.
Trevor Martinich is a young up-and-coming player who's playing pretty well.
So the change-up is going to be important.
And then you just, you have to find a way to get out Buxton.
Don't let Byron Buxton beat you.
Really, he's the scary bat in this lineup.
I'm not that afraid of Carlos Correa.
Not that he can't do damage, but I just,
Correa doesn't take over a game.
Buxton will and does.
So, yeah, I think it's going to come down to, you know, you have to get the lefties out,
and then you have to find a way to control Buxton.
The fastball slider combo should come into play here, but if Gilbert doesn't control it well,
if he doesn't command both of those pitches against Buxton, he can win this game for Minnesota by himself.
So that's really what it's about.
It's about getting a rise out, finding a way to do that, good luck.
and then facing Buckson either with nobody on base
or finding a way to handle Byron Buxden.
And if you can do that,
you got a good shot of beating the twins.
Their lineup is pretty deep,
but it's not a jug or not.
So Gilbert has a shot to perform pretty well tonight,
but it's all about command with him.
Control and command, throw strikes,
stay out of the middle of the plate, he'll be fine.
If you can't do that,
I mean,
The Mariners kind of need innings from him because three of the last four starters have only gone five innings.
And the bullpen is getting a little taxed.
And there are no days off on this road trip.
So they play another, what is it, another seven games and six days.
So, yeah, it's one of those things where they need endings from Gilbert tonight.
Because the bullpen, while it's not in terrible shape, it's had to cover, you know, 12 innings.
sorry, 14 innings in the last four days.
You don't want to ask him to cover four more
against the twins tonight.
Yeah, try to avoid that at all costs.
And to reiterate what you were saying,
avoid Byron Buxton at all costs, quite frankly.
That would behoove Logan Gilbert
and the Mariners tonight.
Bucston is just, he's one of the best baseball players
I've seen when he's healthy and performing the way that he,
uh, the way that he's been over the last couple years.
Um,
just defensively what he's able to do.
And now that he's figured it out at the plate,
I mean,
he's just ridiculous.
He's,
he's definitely turned into, you know,
uh,
over the last,
you know,
six or seven years since he got drafted,
went however long it's been now since he got drafted.
Maybe it's even been longer.
Um,
it's been a while now.
But,
you know,
there was obviously the talk about him being the next Mike Trout.
he's hit that now like pretty much he's just got to stay healthy because like when he is healthy
he pretty much is Mike trout like that's like defensively offensively the guy is just a ridiculous
human being uh he's a ridiculous baseball player uh so try to avoid him as at all cost because he like
you said will take over this game without hesitation um and we'll see you know what this
offense is able to do against Joe Ryan like I said earlier
know, it's, uh, whenever they face an actual good pitcher, they, they seem to do pretty well for the
most part. And, uh, you know, even if they're going up against someone like Kevin Gossman or Max Scherzer,
who they only, who they only got a couple of runs off of, uh, in those games, still did enough to,
to, to win those games, you know, so maybe tonight they'll be able to do just enough to,
to beat Joe Ryan and the twins. It's, uh, it's going to be difficult, though. And, uh, you know,
this twins lineup as well, just going back to, to Gilbert for a second. It's, it's,
It's going to be a little bit deeper, presumably, than it was last night,
because Jorge Polanco was not in the lineup last night.
Polanco, I would assume, is going to be in the lineup tonight,
and he's had a good month of June.
Not a great year overall, but he's been pretty hot as of late,
so got to watch out for him as well.
And, of course, Max Kepler, who's kind of struggled over the last couple weeks,
was, you know, he drove in the game deciding run last night as well.
So you got to look out for him as well.
They got a few lefties in this lineup that should cause some headaches for Gilbert.
We'll see how he responds to that.
So earlier you mentioned Jesse Winker, who's been struggling this year.
And he's pretty much operated under the approach of one step forward, two steps, maybe even three steps, maybe even a million steps back at times this year.
It seems like he's turning the corner and then it just kind of all falls apart.
He's been in the lead-off spot since May 24th, but is it time to move him out of there?
We're going to be talking about that in just a moment.
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So Colby, Jesse Winker, as I said, has been in the leadoff spot since May 24th.
That's historically been the spot that he's had the most success in,
and that's why they put him up there,
even though that he wasn't really doing anything
to necessarily earn that role.
They were just kind of hoping that that would help him fix some things,
but it really hasn't so far.
He's still struggling.
He's still hitting under 200 in that leadoff spot.
He's walking, but walks will only do so much for you.
And yes, walks are a big part of a good quality leadoff hitter,
but he's just not really producing anything.
outside of that and he's striking out more now that's just becoming a huge problem for him so
i'll ask you this because you know of course the mariners don't have many other options to go to here
i think there's one and i'm sure you'll mention them here but um you know who do you think
should replace him in the lead off spot if you think that he should be um taken out of there
yeah um he absolutely should be removed from the lead off spot it's just it's not
working. He's already struck out 15 times this month. And in the entire month of May, he struck out
18 times. And in the entire month of April, he struck out 12. So I'm making consistent contact.
The numbers are a little bit askew because he did have an 0 for 6 thrown in there. But it still
exist. So yeah, it's time to take him out of the lineup. He's just not producing like you want.
and you just you can't afford to sit around and hope that the numbers will turn.
And they should turn in theory because you look at, you know,
kind of the underlying numbers of this.
And he should be a lot better.
The number should be a lot better than they are.
He's still hitting the ball pretty hard.
He's not chasing.
He's not swinging and missing all that much.
You know, the walk rate is elite.
The ex-Wobah is very, very good.
the ex batting average is very good.
He's just not really fine in the barrel.
He's just fighting his swing a little bit.
And the Mariners are in a position where they can't really afford to wait around
and just give him as many at bats as possible to make sure he can fix it.
The offense is struggling right now.
Jesse Winker is a guy who at some point should turn it around.
You kind of have to trust the back of the baseball card here.
But right now, results are all that matters.
The expected stats don't mean anything right now.
And the Mariners are, you know, push themselves back up to the cliff of, you know, heading into July and not being, not, you know, not playing meaningful baseball even by July.
That's a huge problem.
And it's definitely a step back if that's the case.
It's not the end of the rebuild and, oh, my God, we have to fire everybody like some people seem to think.
But it's definitely a step back.
and that's unfortunate.
And Winker, like it or not, has had a pretty big hand in the setback
because he just hasn't lived up to expectations.
So it's time to move him down.
He really has to work on a swing.
I would try to get him a few days off here and there.
It's just, it's not working.
It's time to make that move.
You gave it a shot.
It's not working right now.
And, you know, again, like you said,
there's not a ton of other options that are a better fit at the lead off spot.
I personally would just hit Thai France leadoff.
If it's not Thai France, it probably should be J.P. Crawford.
You have to get guys into the leadoff spot who are producing, right?
And so there's really only two options for that.
Frazier is starting to produce a little bit more, but he's not ready yet.
Julio is on a backslide a little bit right now.
He's chasing those sliders.
The off-speed stuff low is really good.
getting them right now and pitchers are going to continue to exploit that.
Watch Joe Ryan throw him nothing but sliders and curveballs tonight.
But so he's not really an option.
So pretty much comes down to Thai France or or JP Crawford.
I think Winker needs to be hitting fifth, six, seventh until he gets things figured out.
And like I said, it's unfortunate because there's not a lot of options.
But, you know, that's unfortunately the team put a lot of faith in Jesse Winker being
Jesse Winker from the get-go, and you understand why they put that much faith in him because
the numbers back it up. But unfortunately, that's what happens when you don't have a backup plan.
And so the Mariners right now have to scramble a little bit. That's their own fault.
But I don't think that just, you know, banging your head against the table is the solution here.
So you got to move Winker down. You got to move Crawford up or Ty France up.
You have to get those two guys as many at-bats as possible. And the only way to do that is to hit
them one or two in some order.
Yeah.
Just because there aren't many options doesn't mean that there aren't better options.
There's two.
Yeah.
There are two.
And you mentioned both of them there.
But let's be real about it.
They're not going to move Ty France into the leadoff spot.
They should.
They should.
But they won't.
So my choice here would be J.P. Crawford, right?
Because he doesn't strike out.
He's striking out 15% of the time.
That's a career low.
he's walking 11.4% of the time.
That's a career high right now.
He's hitting for a 1445 WRC plus.
He's slashing 297, 386, 434.
He's had a couple of hiccups here and there,
but overall has been very consistent throughout the season.
That's someone that you can just,
you can rely on him now.
I think it's time at this point.
The sample size is large enough this season
that you can trust J.P. Crawford,
that this is probably who,
who J.P. Crawford is for the 22-2 season.
Is that who he's going to be in 2023,
20-24? It doesn't matter. That's not what we're talking about today.
What we're talking about right now is just how to fix this lineup,
how to make it a little bit better,
and you should be guaranteeing J.P. Crawford,
the most at-bats in this lineup right now.
It doesn't have to be a long-term thing either.
In fact, you hope it's not.
You hope it's not.
But Crawford's done it before.
Right now he's producing.
He's your second best bat.
sadly.
And so putting him,
you know,
one and two,
it also keeps the lefty,
righty thing that Scott is obsessed with for some reason.
Scott cares way more about handedness than I ever will.
I don't get it.
I don't like it,
but whatever,
I just got to accept it.
And yeah,
like I said,
Winker,
unfortunately probably hits five or six.
And I say unfortunate because
that means Swares is probably hitting four.
And Suarez in a good lineup should probably be hitting six.
Seven,
honestly.
Yeah.
It probably also means that Adam Fraser has to hit somewhere in your top four right now, which, ugh.
But, I mean, who's the better option?
Right.
If you have JP, France, and Julio in your top three, what's the better option there?
There is a.
So, yeah, you're kind of stuck.
And there's not much you can do.
So you just have to do what's best for the team.
And that means moving Crawford out of the leadoff spot.
Winker.
Winker.
Sorry, yeah.
Yeah, Crawford is just, he's a better hitter right now.
France is a better hitter right now.
You know, and I would say that Winker just going off a track record is probably the most talented hitter in this lineup.
Maybe it's Thai France, but, you know, you can't just go off a track record and talent anymore.
You can't just go off a process anymore.
You're too deep into the season now for process to reign supreme.
And, you know, we're process over results guys here.
But even us at this point, it's just we're kind of over it.
Like, it just...
You're probably more hard than you're working right now.
He's got some serious work to do on that swing.
So like I said, it's certainly not, you're not giving up on it.
You're not exploring, trading Jesse Winker at the deadline.
Like, you're not doing any of that stuff, but it's just acknowledging the reality.
Right now, Jesse Winker is not a good hitter.
there are a lot of underlying stats that suggest he should be but he's not so it's at some point you just got to pull that trigger and you know it's the same thing we could have the same discussion with abraham toro we almost did it might be time to send torro down and just you know let sam haggerty get some at bats i mean it's it's not good but again when you don't go out you don't go get the jonathan vr's when you don't go you know and get the legitimate backup plans like you and i
wanted the Mariners to do all winter, sometimes you got to lie in the bed you made.
And this is the bed that Jerry and his crew made.
You know, they decided not to not to back up Winker, which I think that's pretty
understandable.
But they also decided not to back up Kelnick.
And despite saying, no, we're not going to trust Kyle Lewis for anything.
They did because they didn't go out and get anybody better.
So they didn't go get an emergency infielder in case Adam Frazier's second half was legitimate.
They didn't go out and get somebody in case Abraham Toro September was legitimate.
They just kind of assumed the best for everybody.
And now they're paying the price.
And by extension, so are we.
And it's unfortunate.
And at some point, you feel like Adam Frazier and Jesse Winker, their track record is so good.
They will eventually turn it around.
But will it be too late?
Maybe.
I mean, we're not there yet.
But every day you fall a little bit further behind, it gets harder and harder and harder.
And at some point, you're not even to be able to justify going.
out and getting the big pieces you want because if you're seven games back with six teams to
pass on July 1st, you're not a contender.
So you've got to start turning it around.
It's a tough home stand.
It's been a tough nine game stretch where you're playing nine games in 10 days against,
you know, three playoff teams.
The twins, the Red Sox, the Astros, they all have a very, very good shot of going to
the playoffs this year.
So it's tough.
It's certainly not an easy stretch, but it's, it's, it's certainly not an easy stretch.
but it's when you have to find.
But the Mariners were supposed to be a team
that could compete with these teams, you know,
a little bit better. To be fair, they have been.
They haven't gotten blown out at any point.
All these games have been super competitive.
They could have won all of them.
They could have lost all of them, but that's kind of what the Mariners are.
And they just haven't gotten the big hit or they haven't gotten the big out.
They've been just a little bit worse than these teams.
And a big part of that is that they haven't gotten what they needed from
Jesse Winker, Adam Frazier, Robbie Ray, the guys they brought in.
and Abraham Toro, the guys who we asked for them to back up.
They didn't get anything from Kelmick because they didn't put in safeguards.
So it's just one of those things where that's why I'm sitting here looking like a moron
pounding the table for guys like Clint Frazier and Yermann Mercedes because they didn't do it.
They didn't put in those safeguards.
So now we're sitting here saying, should Sam Haggurty get more at bats and Abraham Toro?
That's gross.
And I like Sam Haggurty, but no.
The answer should be no.
but it's a legitimate question.
Yeah, not in a year where you were supposed to be contending.
Just, yeah, guys like Sam Haggarty and all that.
And, you know, naturally, that's going to happen because injuries are going to happen and stuff like that for continuing teams.
I mean, shoot, look at some of the players that the Yankees have run out, you know, over the last couple years at times when injuries have happened.
But, you know, it shouldn't be to this extent that it's happening.
And, you know, there was just too much.
much faith putting guys like Abraham Toro, like Dylan Moore, even, like Jerry Kellnick,
you know, and it just, it's kind of blown up in the Mariners face. And, you know, the Toro discussion
is probably something that we're going to have, maybe tomorrow, maybe on tomorrow's episode.
We might get into all of this a little bit more. But for now, that's going to do it for our show
today. Thank you so much for joining us here on the Lockdown Mariners podcast.
For Colby Patnode, I'm Tadang Gonzalez. Be sure to give us a follow on Twitter at L.O.
underscore Mariners. You can follow Inside the Mariners at Inside Mariners.
You can follow me at Dan Gonzalez, it's D-A-N-Z-L-Z and Colby at C-P-P-E-E-P-A-T-E-L-E.
You can also find all that stuff in the description of this episode.
And thank you again for making us your first listen of the day, just like you do here every day.
Now make your second listen to the day, locked on MLB.
That's where Paul Francis Sullivan and please call him Sully brings you his unique perspective
on the major leagues president pass.
It's free wherever you get your podcast just like us.
So have yourself a beautiful baseball day.
And we'll see you tomorrow.
Go, Ems.
Please.
