Locked On Mariners - Daily Podcast On the Seattle Mariners - What If? 1995... (Part III) and Other Mariners What If?s

Episode Date: May 8, 2020

Jon D. Miller joins D.C. Lundberg, who's recording the show from the Locked On Mariners Mobile Unit, to talk wrap up the "what if" scenario D.C. laid out over the previous two shows about the 1995 Mariners. The two then discuss some other, smaller "what if" situations involving Mariners' trades and individual player performances. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to Locked-on Mariners, part of the Locked-on Podcast Network, your team every day. Here's your host, D.C. Lundberg. It's Friday, ladies and gentlemen, D.C. Lundberg here, Locked-on Network's King of the Road. That was terrible. But I'm coming at you today from Rathdrum, Idaho, ladies and gentlemen, yes, Rathdrum, Idaho. As the Locked-on Mariner's party in the Panhandle continues, I suppose. Rathrimi-Idao today, we've been in Idaho all this week. going to continue to bring our shows to you from Idaho for the foreseeable future because it is

opening back up, ladies and gentlemen, and I'm only 20 minutes away. That's why I'm over here. And I got to say, there are a lot of Washington license plates way more than I'm used to seeing in Idaho. In any case, I'm rambling, but do remember to download rate and subscribe to Locked on Mariners on Google Podcast, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher Radio, or whichever podcasting app that you personally care to use. Also remember that we are part of the Locked-on Podcast Network, which is sponsored by Bilt Bar all this month. You can ask your smart device to play Locked-on Mariners podcast or any of the other programs here on Tlopin. Follow this show on Twitter at L-O-U-U-U-N-R-R-G, if you're scoring at home.

We are wrapping up our what-if scenarios for the Seattle Mariners this week, or really our what-if scenario that I brought to you. over the last couple of days. And we're going to kind of delve into that a little bit and kind of back up, you know, what I said, that the Mariners weren't getting past Cleveland and certainly weren't getting past Atlanta if they were to get past Cleveland.

Here with me to talk about that is somebody who is not on the road. He is, in fact, at home in the South Puget Sound region. That is our very own Locked-on Mariners contributor, John Miller. John, hello from Raftrum. Hello, how is it in Idaho? raining. It's raining today, although I love it over here. I filled up the Locked-on Mariners mobile unit with gas before today's program, and which

of course is my car. And one thing I love about it is that gas is so cheap over here compared to Spokane, where prices have kind of stagnated a little bit. But in Idaho, they continue to drop like a rock. The gas station I go to unleaded is only 147 a gallon. That is incredible. That's just to make all you Seattle listeners jealous out there. In any case, this was probably the longest intro in the history of this program.

So let's get into the actual program. I know you listen to our first two episodes of this week yesterday and the day before, kind of changing the dynamics of the September 27th, 1995 game, to turn that into a 2-0-Mariner's win rather than a defeat, which really wasn't that far-fetched, quite honestly. and then going through the playoffs. You told me before we went on air today that you actually did look up how the Mariners did against the Yankees in 1995

and how they did against the Indians in 1995. I'm particularly curious on the Mariners' record versus the Indians in 1995 because I posit that the Indians were such a good team. The offenses were similar. Mariners' offense may be a little bit better, but Cleveland's pitching was certainly far, far superior. did the Indians, pardon me, how did the Mariners do against the Indians in

1995 at large during the regular season? Against the Indians in the nine games that they played. Mariners lost five of them, Cleveland won four. The Mariners scored 42 runs and only allowed 44 runs. Wow.

Okay, and then, you know, 44 runs, it was very close. Very close, and I don't have, you know, and since I'm on the road, I don't have the tools that I ordinarily do. And I was wondering, John, if you could divide those 42 runs and 44 runs over those nine games, so we can see how many runs they were scoring per game

and then allowing per game versus Cleveland. The Seattle Mariners would have scored an average of four and a half, actually 4.666 whatever runs a game, and the Indians would have scored about 4.888-something runs a game. Okay, and, you know, I'm not exactly, I don't know if that's near their, you know, league averages or not. But, you know, looking over some of the Cleveland Indians' numbers for the 1995 season,

I said that maybe their offense wasn't as good as the Mariners. They were better than the Mariners. They led the American League in home runs in 1995. They led the American League in batting average, on-base percentage, slugging percentage, total bases, runs scored, hits. They were second in doubles. they, you know, in just about every single important offensive category, the Cleveland Indians led the American League.

And in this 144 game season, remember, John, they won 100 of them. Averaged out over 162 games, I think it's 111 or 112 wins. This was just a great, great team, and we haven't even spoken about their starting pitching yet. Dennis Martinez at age 41 had a brilliant season. Charles Nagy, one of the most underrated pitches of the 90s, did not have the best season, but he certainly did okay. Oral Hersheiser had a great season. Chad OJ, a young Chad OJ, had a very, very good season,

and Ken Hell came over, I believe, at the deadline, or maybe he started the season with him, I don't remember, and he did very well, and their bullpen was lights out. Jose Mesa, this might have been his finest season as a major leaguer. He had a 1-1-3-ERA that season, and 46 saves. Wow. Just a dominant team, John.

Yes, and you had mentioned the Indians could have had as many as 111 or 112 wins. It wasn't until 1998 that the New York Yankees got 114 and set the then American League win record. Correct. If the Indians had gotten 11, 112, they could have very well tied or beaten their record going back to 154 of 1111 wins. Wow. Wow. You know, the strike really cost a lot of players in team some accomplishments. It cost the Indians, obviously, maybe a tie or a outright hold of the American League wins record. It wouldn't have lasted very long, as you just noted, because the New York Yankees won 114 and 1998.

and then I think the Seattle pilots or something hold the record right now. I don't know when they did that, but 116 wins by some team in 2001. I know it was the Mariners, ladies and gentlemen, don't write me. I'm just goofing around. But, you know, the strike costs the Indians that. It costs Tony Gwynne, maybe a run at 400. It costs Matt Williams and Barry Bonds when he was still skinny. A chance at Roger Maris's single season record.

But, you know, back to these Cleveland Indians, They were so, so good. I didn't realize their offense was as good as it was. Albert Bell would have been the MVP of the American League that year. If he wasn't such a jackass, let's face it, Mo Vaughn won the award. But Bell had a season for the ages that year. He had 50 home runs and 50 doubles, I believe. I don't really need to believe that.

I can actually look it up right now as he vamps for time. Yes, here we go. Albert Bell, in 1995, had 52 doubles and 50 home runs, 126 runs batted in. That speaks for itself, John. Yeah. So I don't know exactly why I tossed it to you at that point since it did speak for itself. But I didn't realize that the Indians, I mean, I knew that they were really, really good.

And I knew that their pitching was really, really good. I didn't realize their offense was that great. I mean, this is a historically great offense. But just to play devil's advocate, let's say that they had a bunch of players injured or something. or they're starting pitching blew up, and the Mariners made it to the World Series against the Atlanta Braves. The Mariners were not going to beat the Braves either.

And I'll go over some of their offensive numbers. They were second in the National League in home runs. They were ninth in run scored. Their offense was a very productive, solid offense, not really historically great. And they did have Fred McGriff, who for my money is a Hall of Famer. If it wasn't for the strike,

he'd have 500 home runs. Chipper Jones is a Hall of Famer. David Justice was one of the top left-handed hitters of his era. Mark Lemke was on my favorite players. Solid hitter, good contact guy. Good to have either the number two spot or the number eight spot because he could bump people over and did the little things. And, oh, yeah, they're pitching staff.

Greg Maddox, Hall of Fame. Tom Glavin, Hall of Fame. John Smolt, Hall of Fame. All three of them in their prime. And then they also had Steve Avery. who at the time was one of the top young pitchers in the National League just kind of fell off a cliff after he got to the Red Sox. And their bullpen was also very, very good.

Mark Wollers had a great season for them with a 209 ERA and 25 saves. Again, as special as this 1995, Mariners team was, the Indians had a better team and the Braves had a better team. That's all there is to it, John, I think. Yes, even if the Mariners had somehow squeaked by the Indians, farthest they would have taken the Braves, and this would have just been pure luck, is six games. I don't think it would even have gotten that far. Not with that pitching staff.

Good pitching always beats good hitting in the postseason. And the Braves, that was the top pitching staff in baseball at the time. Yeah, there have been many comparisons made to other pitching staffs, and you can go back to Kofax and Drysdale or. Warren Spawn and saying and guys like that, but the Braves pitching staff for quite a while there, a good stretch of time, was right up there with any pitching staff you care to name. They acquired Smoltz, John Smoltz from the Tigers for Doyle Alexander in the late 80s when he was a Tiger's farm hand. Tom Glavin was homegrown, and they acquired Greg Maddox as a free agent in 1993,

three, as if they didn't already have two, you know, future Hall of Famers in their starting rotation plus Steve Avery. And even after Avery went to the Red Sox, they still had that, you know, those, that three-headed monster, if you will. Kevin Millwood came up through the system and had some very good seasons with them. So you're right. I mean, we're talking about a dominant, dominant, historically good starting rotation. And the best that the Mariners could throw out there,

the name that stands up and everyone is Randy Johnson. And it was kind of Randy Johnson and, you know, a less than supporting cast. Bob Walcott pitched very well in game one against the Cleveland Indians. I realize that.

But Chris Basio did not have a good postseason. Andy Benis did not have a very good postseason. And he wasn't even that effective for the Mariners during the regular season after he was acquired from the Padres. And Tim Belcher was hit her, mess. They were really going off the three-man rotation just to be able to pitch Randy Johnson as often as they could. And he actually did run out of steam towards the end. And I mean, how many innings did he pitch in game six against the Indians? Only, I think he left in the sixth inning.

He was gassed by that time. He had nothing left in the tank. Yeah, that's exactly right. Which is unusual to say about him because he was such a reliable workhorse. Well, and that just goes to the Indians had such a deep team That they could go to a bullpen or perhaps have a starter arrested and use them in relief The Mariners just didn't have that That's the word you hit the nail on the head The Indians were deep Not only on their bench for their position players, which they were

But they had a very, very deep rotation And the Mariners really just had one guy they were leaning on and the Indian's bullpen was certainly a lot better. Right now we're going to get to the Mariners trivia question, which is the following. It actually has to do with the meritor's bullpen in 1995. While Norm Charlton was the team's closer down the stretch after being acquired in mid-July, he did not lead the club in saves. Who did?

Answer coming up after a word from Biltbar. You may find this hard to believe, ladies and gentlemen, but there was a point in my life where I was going to the gym pretty much every day. even though those days are long gone, I have tried a protein supplement or two in my day. Protein shakes, bars, none of them were really all that appetizing. Built bar is different. It does not have that weird aftertaste that many protein supplements have. They're not chalky or gritty, and they taste more like a candy bar than any protein bar that I've ever had.

I've got the sample box right next to me right now as I record today's show on the road in the Locked-on Mariners Mobile Unit, a.k.a. Mike Carr. In addition, gang, the flavors that do not have nuts in them are produced in a peanut and tree nut-free facility. So if you have a nut allergy, the nut-free varieties are totally safe for you to eat, you know, unless you're also allergic to the 15 plus grams of protein per bar. In addition, they're low sugar, they're low calorie. Go to builtbar.com. Use the promo code locked on to get $10 off your first order. Try them for yourself. Whether you want a post-workout protein boost or are looking for a healthy snack or quick bite on the way out the door in the morning, Bilt Bar may be the answer you are looking for. And speaking of answers, do you have the answer that we're looking for? Who led the 1995 Mariners and saves?

Charlton saved 14 important games down the stretch to move the Mariners into that tie in the American League West at the end of the regular season. John, have you got any idea who led the 1995 season team in saves? Well, I've got a number of guesses. I'm just going to narrow them down. All right. It was either John Cummings, Dave Fleming, or my final answer, Bobby Ayala. Yes, sir, it's Bobby Ayala.

He saved 19 games for the Mariners that season before giving way to Norm Charlton in the closers role. More locked on mariners in Rathdrum, Idaho, following a word from Postmates. Soon as I find that page. Here we go, gang. If you're the type who starts thinking about what to eat for dinner while you're eating lunch, you will love using Postmates. They deliver food from just about any restaurant you can think of right to your door.

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And as I've been saying, Washington's going to be in lockdown for a hell of a long time. I get the feeling, which is why I'm doing the show in Idaho in a free state. So that just makes Postmates that much more important. You don't need to go anywhere. They can come to you. Just download Postmates on. iOS or Android, find your favorites and get anything you want delivered within the hour gang. And for a limited time, Postmates is giving our listeners $100 of free delivery credit for your first

seven days. To start your free deliveries, download the app and use code locked on. That's code locked on for $100 of free delivery credit with no minimum purchase for your first seven days when you download the Postmates app. Anything you need, anytime you need it, Postmate it. Now time for the second half of Locked-on Mariners. Once again, your host, D.C. Lundberg. Yes, indeed. I'm not going to sing this time because it didn't work out so well in the first at the top of the show, but that is Joey Martin leading you back into Locked-on Mariners.

Live to tape today from Rathram, Idaho with John Miller, who was not with me in Rathrim, Idaho. He is at home in the South Puget Sound region, talking about kind of the Mariners' What-if situations. We kind of went off on the, the Braves and Indians for the most part in the first half of the show. We got to bring it back to the Mariners. And, John, as I was thinking about how to go about this theme week,

a lot of little what-if situations popped up in my head, which are kind of more in the line of personal accomplishments and whatnot. You know, Brian Holman was the first one I thought of. You know, what if Ken Phelps would have struck out? Or what if Mike Gallego came to the plate and wasn't pinch it for? Would have been a special game, wouldn't it have, John? That really would have been a special game. And who knows what may have happened to his career as a result of that?

Actually, and you bring up a good point because his career was really derailed by injuries. What if that never happened? Yeah, exactly. And he was part of the trade that brought Randy Johnson to the Mariners from Montreal, and Johnson was not the centerpiece of that trade. Holman was. So if the Mariners had Johnson through the middle of the 1998 season, who knows what Holman would have done if he would have stayed healthy,

but man, that would have been a great one-two punch that the Mariners would have had, wouldn't have been? Yes. And if another guy that we had around that time, Eric Hanson had been able to stay healthy, they could have been really good. That would have been a wonderful one, two, three in the starting rotation. You know, Eric Hanson was traded after the 1993,

free season. I know you know this, John. Just kind of a recap for those who may not know. Eric Hanson was traded from the Mariners to the Cincinnati Reds along with Brett Boone to acquire Dan Wilson and Bobby Ayala in return. You know, the Mariners got Dan Wilson out of that. It was a really good, that's a really good trade for the Mariners, especially considering that after that that is when Hanson really ran into arm problems. And his signature pitch was that curveball. So if you got arm problems and you're a curveball pitcher, you're toast. Yeah. And kind of speaking of trades, I kind of hate to bring this up.

But 1997 trading deadline, if the Mariners were not so desperate for bullpen help, you know, who knows what could have happened if they were able to keep Jose Cruz Jr. Because they had developed him through the system. He was the minor league player of the year in 1996. and didn't make the club out of spring training. And on this show a couple of times, I've always said, well, I don't know why the Mariners didn't make more of an effort to sign Mark Witten after the 1996 season.

I'm guessing it actually might have to do with they thought Jose Cruz Jr. was ready. And he wasn't ready at his spring training, but it was called up, I believe, in May or at the very end of April, and did very well. I think he hit 268 in his brief time in Seattle. And his career batting ever, which I believe was 248. He wound up as something as a journeyman. But, you know, he was a, he liked hitting in the kingdom. He may have had a better career had, if he were able to stay in Seattle, rather than having to be traded away for bullpen help. Any thoughts on that, John? Yeah, I distinctly remember that trade. And at the time, I was against it. And even to this day, I like to go to the what if. And he was our top prospect. He was a minor league,

player of the year. He had a good start. And then you trade him away for bullpen. A reasonable journeyman veteran bullpen help are kind of a diamond dozen. So I wouldn't trade a top prospect like that. Yeah. I mean, you're definitely on to something. You're definitely on to something. Who else did the Mariners have that they could have traded? And that's kind of an ambiguous rhetorical question

because, of course, we don't know. And then the other trade that the Mariners made that day, Heathcliff's Slocum, for Derek Lowe and Jason Veritech, who both went on to become stars. And I was only reminded of this because I was watching Chopt the other day, and Jason Veritech was one of the celebrity judges. But in any case, the Veritech probably would have come up to the big leagues in 1998 and had a similar role to that of Chris Widger.

Like someone in a timeshare with Dan Wilson, even though Dan Wilson was the number two catcher in the American League at that time, I think. Certainly, you know, certainly the defense was there. But, you know, how long would the Mariners would have held on to Dan Wilson before giving the reins to Veritech? And I know Lowe was not very effective in 1997 with the Seattle Mariners. Who knows what kind of career he would have had, you know, as a mariner? because he really didn't pitch very well in the kingdom, I hate to say. No, he didn't. And the talk with Wilson and Widger and Veritak,

well, you end up with, okay, we've got a great young prospect here in Veritak. What do we do with him? Do we have him a good year and then trade him off? Or do we have him platoon for the position and maybe have Wilson, go away? When you've got two good catchers like that and you don't want to let a good catcher go, what are your options? Honestly, I think that the Veritech Low trade makes a lot more sense to me

than the Jose Cruz Jr. trade, even though the return on the investment for Low and Veritech was practically zero. if, you know, if Slocum would have pitched even decently for the Mariners, forget well. You know, let's just say he pitched very well for the mayors, and he gave them three or four years of solid back-end relief, then the trade might be worth it. But that's an awful hard pill to swallow still.

Very hard, yes. And moving away from that, because I don't want to get killed by irate mirrors fans by talking about that trade too much. One of the other kind of what-if scenarios, kind of going back to the personal accomplishment field, was Mike Cameron, his four home run game. They were in his first four at bats, and I think he had two more at bats following that. And I remember specifically listening to the radio broadcast, and there was a pitch that he took, which was a fastball basically right down the middle of the plate,

and he didn't offer at it. If he would have put a good swing on it, maybe he's got the Major League record. Yeah, that is something that I've gone back and forth on and having gone back and watched the clips of the four home runs and other times having watched that game and even before rewatching the game distinctly remembering that in his last at bat he hit,

it was to, I want to say moderately deep right field. Yeah. And it was caught. And we're watching the game live and like, oh my good, there it is.

And like 10 feet from the track or something. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I mean, I know this is our theme for the Lockdown Network this week. I kind of feel like playing these what-if games are a little bit unfair to these players because four home runs and hitting back-to-back home runs with the same teammate twice in the same inning, which is the only time that's ever happened in Major League history.

You know, that's an accomplishment in and of itself. I mean, that's the game of Mike Cameron's life, and nobody can take that away from him. And Brian Holman, same thing, that was the game of his life. And nobody's going to take that away from him. And the Mariners obviously put their heart and soul into the 1995 season. and I kind of feel like I'm insulting these men a little bit by kind of playing with what if this happened here, what if this happened there.

And, you know, I don't mean it that way. And I hope it doesn't come across that way. You know what I mean? I know very well what you mean, and I certainly don't want to do that. These are great men, great human beings, great ballplayers, some of them. And if we really wanted, we could pick apart any.

We could go to, he wasn't with the Mariners at the time, unfortunately. but Randy Johnson's perfect game. Right. And go, what about this 30-3-1 count that he had? If the umpire suddenly falls out of ball thinks it's a little bit outside, well, there you go. He doesn't have a perfect game. And going back to Randy Johnson, this just sprung into my head two times during the

1997 season while he was with the Mariners, he struck out 19 hitters. What if two more per game strike out? Then he's got the Major League record. Yeah. And, you know, again, not to take anything away from these accomplishments because they are fantastic accomplishments. But, you know, anytime something doesn't quite work out exactly the way you want it to, the what-if games kind of do go on in your head, whether you're talking about a sports team you're rooting for or, you know, something, I'm going to stop because I don't like where this is going. but you know everybody's kind of got what ifs in their life and they're hard not to think about but again I don't want to do a disservice to these to these ball players who put their heart

and soul into everything and these accomplishments that we're talking about you know they're great in their own right yeah they really are and it does as well to talk about them but then not keep going with what if Mike Cameron did this or that and lose sight of the fact that he's one of only a handful of people in the history of the game that have ever hit four home runs in a game. That's correct. And if you really go take it too far, it's going to get to the point where, well, the mergers could have won 162 games in whichever season and then swept the postseason.

That's just not feasible. I guess it's mathematically possible. But it's just not going to happen. No, it's not. And Randy Johnson's striking out 19. Okay, well, at that point he doesn't have the single season record for the game record for strikeouts. But 19 is great. And when we interview them after the game or interview them years later and talk about something like that,

we don't ask him, well, what about this? What about that? You know, exactly. And the fact that he did it twice in one season. Unless, you know, one of those games was a Mariners' loss. That's on the offense. Totally. Because when your pitchers strike at 19 a game, he's obviously dominating.

You got to support him, man. And, yeah, sometimes it just doesn't work out. And I guess that's kind of the basis of this entire week. And I think with that, we are going to wrap up for the day. John, where can the good people find you on Twitter? I can be found on the Twitter sphere. at Seattle Pilot 69. Very good, and thank you again for joining us here today, John.

Always a pleasure having you join us here on Locked-on Mariners. Thank you very much for having me. You are very welcome, and a reminder to you listening out there. Do please remember to download, rate, and subscribe to Lockdown Mariners on Google Podcast, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher Radio, or whichever podcasting app that you like to use. Follow the show on Twitter at L.O. underscore Mariners. Follow me on Twitter at D.C.

We will be back with you next week with another theme, which I don't recall off the top of my head, from yet another city in the beautiful gem state as the Locked-on Mariners party in the panhandle continues. Until then, ladies and gentlemen, have a wonderful weekend. And happy Mother's Day. This is Joey Martin saying join us back here next time for another edition of Locked-on Mariners, part of the Locked-on podcast network. Ask your smart device to play Locked-on MLB upon the Congress. conclusion of this program.