Locked On Patriots - Daily Podcast On The New England Patriots - Locked On Patriots February 16, 2018 - Offseason Positional Review Tight Ends

Episode Date: February 16, 2018

Mark Schofield chats about the current state of New England's TE group, and then talks about draft prospects at the position with Jeff Risdon.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Good morning and welcome into Lockdown Patriots for Friday, February 16th, 2018. Mark Schofield here in the big chair. Again, extra bonus Friday edition. I told everybody, look, we're going to be going four days a week. Now we're in the offseason, but had some things happen. Got a great guest lined up for today, so I didn't want you guys to wait. We're going to be getting back

into football. I do want to say, though, at the outset, yesterday's show started with a quick little story and brief discussion about the tragic events down in Florida. And I know that people come to this show for football, for Patriot stuff. I know I've got listeners to this show that are fans of other teams because they just like the inside.

And I appreciate all of it. But I did feel like I had to say a couple of things about what happened down in Florida. And I got some good feedback on it. And I appreciate people listening to it, taking some time to think about it, taking even more time to reach out about it. I do appreciate that. It means a ton. Got some nice comments on it. Got some people that didn't like it. And that's okay. Like I said at the start, like uncomfortable conversations are uncomfortable for a reason, you know, and I don't have answers. I'm just one guy with a microphone in front of

his face. I don't pretend to have answers. I don't. I don't. I don't. That's why I just thought, take the time to sort of have experts sort through this stuff and maybe we can come up with some answers. And maybe we can't maybe at the end of the day there's just no answer to this i'd at least like to know we tried but today let's get back to the football and we'll continue sort of the off-season previews here we're going to move to the tight end position which is a strange place to be it's's similar in a sense, I think, to when we talked about the quarterback position because the Patriots, they do have four tight ends under contract

for the 2018 season, working our way up the depth chart. Jacob Hollister is under contract, rookie undrafted free agent out of the University of Wyoming. He saw a lot of playing time this year They also have Dwayne Allen under contract In terms of salary cap numbers look Hollister

Just over half a million dollars. It's his sort of cap number for next year Allen's cap number for the 2018 season, $5 million. Then there's Martellius Bennett, who, yes, is under contract for the 2018 season. $6.1 million, his cap number. But I believe the Patriots can move on from that contract rather easily. Looking over at our friend, Miguel Benzon, Patscap. Looking at his page right now.

As well as looking at Miguel's Twitter feed. And Miguel, he lists Bennett as one of his most likely salary cap moves, salary cap cuts for the New England Patriots. And he also indicates that Bennett and Shea McClellan as well might be eligible for the injury protection benefit, which is $1.15 million each. That would hit the Patriots salary cap in

September, which would add to their salary cap number. And I believe if I'm reading everything right here, that because of the way that the Bennett deal was done, the Patriots would save all that $6.1 million if they cut him. So he's obviously somebody that the Patriots might look to to free up some space. And then it gets us to Rob Gronkowski. Cap number for 2018, 10.9 million base salary of 8 million.

Pro-rated bonuses, roster bonuses, workout bonuses gets you to that 10.9. And sort of the issue there, as you look to the tight end room, I think Allen and Bennett are guys that people think will be gone. Miguel, for example, tweeted on February 7th. He got to $34 million in cap space after making some cuts and Bennett and Allen were part of that Allen didn't quite work out Bennett

we don't know if he even wants to play so that's one issue the other issue is when you look at you know the value of tight ends around the league. Gronkowski is paid fairly well. The average, including non-guaranteed money,

the average per year among tight ends. Jimmy Graham is tops with $10 million average per year. Again, that's guaranteed and non-guaranteed money. Then Travis Kelsey at $9.3 million. Then Jordan Reed at $9.3 million, just a little lower than Kelsey. And then Rob Gronkowski. Now, in terms of guaranteed money, Gronkowski is way down the list. I mean, there are guys like Charles Clay, CJ Fedorowicz, Delaney Walker, Jermaine Gresham, Jimmy Graham, Eric Ebron, Antonio Gates, Kobe Flanagan. You have to get down into the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20s. Rob Gronkowski, in terms of guaranteed money per year,

is 20th in the league amongst tight ends. And he's even lower than that when you look at the percentage of guaranteed money that makes up his contract, his overall contract. O.G. Howard, all of his money is guaranteed. Luke Wilson for the Seahawks, all of his money is guaranteed. Luke Wilson for the Seahawks, all of his money is guaranteed. Eric Ebron, all of his money is guaranteed. Evan Ingram, 96.5% of his contract is guaranteed.

Then you scroll all the way down and it's 24.4% guaranteed money as a percentage of his overall contract. So when Rob Gronkowski came out after the Super Bowl and talked about how he'd have to sit back and evaluate whether he wants to keep playing, keep those numbers in mind. View them through that prism.

Because I think at the outset, this is a tight end that wants some more guaranteed money. This next contract might be his last. Gronkowski takes a beating out there. He's had injuries. He came into the league with an injury history. So he just probably wants to maximize his final NFL contract.

Maybe he's doing this to get a new deal. But regardless, maybe he is really thinking about retiring. The Patriots, you know, giving the money allocated to Bennett, giving the money allocated to Allen, what they could save,

how they could make some room there, and the fact that they might need Gronk insurance beyond Jacob Hollister, and they might need their next tight end, similar to discussions we've had about Tom Brady, the Patriots are going to be in the market for a tight end. So that's something to definitely keep in mind. Now, in sort of looking around the league, if they try to address it, say, in free agency, there are some big-name guys out there.

Jimmy Graham is out there. Antonio Gates is out there. Trey Burton, an interesting name, is out there. Some other guys sort of down the list a little bit. Tyler Eifert's had some injury concerns. I don't know if you go there. The aforementioned Luke Wilson is more of a blocking tight end. That's how they've used him in Seattle.

Clay Harbor, who spent some time with the Patriots in the past, Logan Thomas, quarterback convert. So there are some ways that the Patriots might sort of address this position via free agency. Get in a guy like a Darren Fels or a Troy Nicholas from Arizona, Clay Harbor, bring him back in. But the other thing to consider is that this is a very intriguing tight end class in the draft. You don't have sort of the star power

like you did last year with O.J. Howard and Evan Agram, David Njoku, who are growing into some offensive weapons already in the NFL, but it's a very deep group. And as I've said before, if you want to talk QBs, I'm your guy. But if you kind of want to branch out a bit, there are experts that I know and trust

and think the world of that I like to get on for their thoughts on some of these guys. Because look, my attention, my main focus is studying these quarterbacks. I keep my eyes around. And when I'm watching quarterbacks, as you'll hear in a minute, there are guys that catch my eye. But you want to hear from the best, and that's what I'm going to do next.

I'm going to talk with Jeff Risden, who's an absolute must-follow on Twitter, writes for Real GM as well as Browns Wire and Texans Wire. He's going to give me his thoughts on some of the tight ends that he likes as well as who might be the best fits and where in the draft for the New England Patriots. That's ahead with me, Mark Schofield and Locked On Patriots. Welcome back to Locked On Patriots for Friday, February 16th, 2018. Special Friday edition here in the offseason because I got a great guest lined up. As I mentioned earlier in the show, we're going to be talking tight ends. The Patriots might need to address that position.

Matter of fact, I believe they have to given some questions after the top guy and the fact that the top guy is hinting at a WWE career rather than playing for the Patriots. To who do we turn? Perhaps an expert on all things draft. Mr. Jeff Rizff risen he is one of the main contributors over at real gm.com as well as the driving force behind texans wire brown's wire and just an all-around all-around great guy jeff how are you doing today my friend that's too way too nice of an intro and i would love to see gronk in in wwe although not at the Patriots' expense. He could wait a couple years on it. It's a great idea. He's easy to sell.

He's incredibly easy to sell. I'll tell you this, Jeff. When I was coming back flying through Atlanta from Mobile, I'm walking through one of the main terminals with Owen Reese and Joe Ferriolo. We were on the same flight from Mobile into Atlanta, and we see a Brookstone-type store selling gadgets, and who do we see a massive cutout of?

But Rob Gronkowski at, you know, Hartfield Airport in Atlanta. He's a marketable dude. So I totally get the WWE fascination, particularly when you see the dude get beat up every day, every play, every game. Yeah. And no, it's funny. He's so marketable. My wife is a casual football observer.

She hears Gronk and she immediately like turns to the TV like, what's he gonna do is he gonna rip his shirt off hopefully you know that that's right so he has that mass appeal beyond just the football guys yeah and so you know he clearly has a life after football which maybe he's looking to get into sooner rather than later which means we're gonna talk some tight ads you just released sort of your pre-combined rankins piece on the offensive side of the football it's fantastic it's over at Real GM people have to check it out if not for any other reason then Jeff's commentary on Josh Allen which I think more people should take to heart because it makes I'm not a fan no no you're not a fan I mean look man I love this his ball number his overall numbers

and ball placement are pathetic but but his shot-in moments, notably the first half of Wyoming's bowl game, are enough to gamble a seventh-round pick. That's amazing, Jeff. I love it. Well, thank you. That's from the heart. And as you know from talking to me in the past,

that's an improvement in my evaluation of him from where I was earlier. Because I did watch more, because people encouraged me to watch more. And I saw some things that I did like. So I'm higher on him than I used to be. He's got the watch more. And I saw some things that I did like. So, you know, I'm higher on him than I used to be. He's got the rocket right arm.

We can give him that. Oh, he does. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. But, you know, it's like, you know, if you take one of these guys that win lawn drive contests and like put them into the Masters, they're not going to win the Masters, people. You can throw the ball hard. You can drive the ball long. But there's more to doing those things than just those little skills. That's a great analogy. I'm going

to steal that from you. It's all yours, Jeff. It's all yours. You can have it. But Jeff, we've got to talk tight ends, and you've got four guys that I want to get through here. I'm going to start at South Carolina and Hayden Hurst, because the way you wrote them up over at Texans Wire, I think is going to intrigue the Patriots. What can you tell us about Hayden Hurst because the way you wrote him up over at Texans Wire, I think is going to intrigue the Patriots. What could you tell us about Hayden Hurst, a tight end from South Carolina? You know, and I think you're right about that because especially if Gronk is still there, he's not a number one tight end. He's not an alpha receiver, but he can play off of that guy very well. He does a lot of things. He's so versatile. He lines up H h back full back he's lined up at running back he's taken jet sweep handoffs from the slot he can he can line up split wide he's i think he's uh about

six four about 250 pounds so he's versatile pretty fast not overly fast for the position but but just the way that he was used in south carolina's offense there's a whole lot to like about him because he can do anything you ask him to do at a reasonably good level yeah and building off of that jeff i think the blocking in space which is a strength of his that you noted i think that's going to really sort of appeal to the patriots and their coaching staff yeah one of the things that he does really well he's not real good at sustaining the blocks but he jolts people when he hits them and i and i like that about him uh he doesn't necessarily block in line well and is not going to move people all that much but but he's he's good enough at what he does and and of the guys that we're going to talk about he is the best blocker of the group by far uh and and if

you're asking your your tight end to you know seal off an edge for for a you know an outside bouncing run or or get down the field and get in the way of a safety that's trying to close on a guy breaking down the sideline, he's your guy. Yeah. And one of the interesting things about having Gronkowski is Gronkowski is such a good blocker that the Patriots don't need a tight end to come in and be immediately proficient at that. But if they do want that, I think Hurst is their best option out of this group, like you said.

Oh, yeah, definitely. And, you know, the thing is that he can do it out of the backfield, too. If you want him to play that H-back role, you know, motion across the formation and, you know, get on Gronk's flank and confuse linebackers, you can set up dictate matchups with that. That's all what Josh McDaniels and Bill Belichick are about. That's exactly what they love to do. In terms of sort of weaknesses to his game, you highlight inconsistency and sort of build it off of that inconsistency in the red zone. What are the issues there that you saw?

He's not a guy who runs great routes. He's a guy who relies somewhat on scheme to get open, which, again, isn't necessarily as big of a problem with the Patriots as it is with some other teams. The Browns is an example. That's why they're a win 16. There you go. But he's not a guy who presents himself as a big target either,

even though he's a relatively big guy. Of the guys we're going to talk about, he is the least likely to make an impact as a receiver down the field and in the red zone. He's a guy that if you don't have that element of the deep game to him, he's not going to get open. He's just not that nifty. He's not that, I don't know, lithe. And doesn't present himself as a target as well as some other guys do.

He had one red zone touchdown in two seasons. Not great production, but perhaps when paired with Gronkowski, it wouldn't matter as much. Yeah, and if he can get another big wide receiver on the outside, which I think the Patriots should add as well, aside from Hogan, I think that would help them out too, because I think he can fill that niche very nicely. Jeff, you mentioned route running, and there's a guy here that

I maybe wasn't that blown away with on tape, but then seeing him down at Mobile, I felt a little bit better about his route running. Now, that's Mike Giusecchi from Penn State. He's gotten a lot of buzz, particularly after the Senior Bowl. But what are your thoughts on the Penn State tight end? Well, first of all, I love him because of the fact that he was an All-American volleyball player. Well, there you go. That's right.

I played college volleyball myself, and my wife was a professional volleyball player. So that speaks to me, so that automatically earns him bonus points. But he's a phenomenal athlete. If you just watch his highlights, he is leaping up in the air way over guys. I mean, he's going to have a 36, 37-inch vertical at 255 pounds, 6'4", 6'5", probably closer to 6'6", actually. Just a tremendous athlete. He was a very good basketball player as well. And one of the things that I love

about him is that he's really good about not using it all the time, but using it when he needs to use it. There are some guys who like to show off that they can do these things and they sort of overemphasize it. He only does it when he needs to do it. And I like that about him. I think he understands his own game very well. And man, if you get the ball anywhere near him, his catch radius is insane, especially going up or going to the outside. If he's working on the sideline route, you can throw the ball two yards out of bounds and he's still going to catch it. There is sort of a weakness to Jaceki as a blocker, not on Twitter, where he's very willing to block you on Twitter, especially if you mentioned his block and inability, but block it is probably not his strongest suit.

Do you think that's something he could develop and work on in the NFL? Do you think it's just something you probably shouldn't ask him to do? You know, and I'll say this as a 6'5", former volleyball player myself, it's hard to get leverage when you're built the way he is and the way I am. It's just not there. He has long arms. He's not a guy who's going to bench press more than probably 15 times either. That's just not what he does. He is a guy who is going to be receiving tight end.

He can get in the way. And one thing I would like to see him learn how to cut block because he doesn't do that yet. And I think that's something that weaker blockers at the tight end position can do and learn. You saw Vernon Davis learn how to do that very early in his career and it wound up being a very good thing for him. He emerged later as a much better blocker. He's been a little bit sturdier than Gasicki, though. But this guy, he's so fun to watch. Again, he played with an inaccurate quarterback in Trace McSorley,

a guy who's going to sort of spray and pray. Obviously, Brady doesn't do that, but if you're looking for life after Brady and you don't know what you've got, that's not a bad quality to have, a guy who can, you know, sort of make a lesser quarterback look good. Now, a guy that played with a pretty good quarterback is Mark Andrews from Oklahoma. Yes, he did. What are your thoughts about Mr. Andrews? I liked Mark Andrews a lot better last year than I did this year.

I think he gained some weight, and I think it wasn't good weight because I think he probably slowed himself down. He's much more plodding, getting off the line and getting his release, and he's not running away from linebackers anymore, and that's a problem. I still like his all-around game, and I would love to see him lose like 10 pounds because it didn't help his blocking at all from what i saw he's he's he's an average blocker he's adequate he tries

um i think that's probably the the nicest thing you can say adam he's better than gaseki which i think is you know again i don't want mike to block me right right right sorry bro yeah no but the the number one thing that i like about mark andrews is that he played with a quarterback who's good at extending plays and he was really good at getting himself open and presenting himself as a target when mayfield went off script and that that is not an easy quality to have and it's not something that you see a lot of tight ends coming into the league able to do did baker mayfield ever go off script though i mean i don't i don't know if I saw that ever happen,

other than perhaps on every other play. But that's a discussion. Did they have a script? Did they even have a script? No. I think it was basically that movie, The Best of Times, where Baker's like, drawn plays in the dirt. Love that movie.

That's a great movie. Not enough people have seen that movie. I wrote a piece about it last summer. Hell yeah. Yeah, I love that. I wrote a piece about it last summer. Hell yeah. Yeah, I love that. Back to Andrews, though. Is there a situation that, you know, is there something you'd want to see? Because we're coming to the combine.

Is there sort of an ideal sort of weight that you'd want to see him come in at that would make you feel a little bit better about where he's headed? I'd like him to be at 250 because I think he played it in the 265, maybe even 270 range. You know, if he can get down there, if he he played it in the 265 maybe even 270 range you know if he can get down there if he can if he can break 49 in the 40 I think I'm pretty happy with him because I don't think he was playing that way last year no no and he was he was prior to that he was much faster and lighter in the open field uh in prior years and and one of the things that I noticed while watching

Baker was when Baker would get into trouble it would often be Andrews that he would look for in those sort of scramble-drawer situations. Do you sort of think that that speaks to how he's going to be looked at by his future teammates, that he's sort of the guy that the quarterback's going to look to in those situations? Yeah, definitely. He's got a lot of value for a young quarterback. As a hypothetical, I'll play Browns fan here for a second,

even though I'm not one i'm from there but i'm not a fan um because i'm smart um if they get baker mayfield i would love to see them get him because they have david and joku is sort of a dynamic you know speed threat but that that underneath guy that guy who can catch the the 8 to 12 yard route when things break down they don't have that guy uh there's a lot of teams that don't have that guy, and he can be that guy for a young quarterback. I'd love to see the team that takes Mayfield in the first round get him in probably the third.

I think the second's a little rich, but third round would be great for that. There's one more name that we wanted to discuss today, and that's a prospect that probably not a lot of listeners of the Lockdown Patriots podcast have heard of. A young man from South Dakota State, Dallas Goddard. What can you tell us about this man? Oh, man. If you like people who make one-hand catches in the end zone,

and honestly, when I watched him, I actually thought I was watching Gronk a little bit. Just the way that he frames the ball, he can just reach out and stab the ball, and it disappears into his hands. That's one of the things that I love about Gronk, is that if you throw it near him, frames the ball, he can just reach out and stab the ball, and it disappears into his hands. That's one of the things that I love about Gronk is that if you throw it near him, he's swallowing the ball, and he's doing it with nonchalance. Goddard does the exact same thing.

He's about the same size as Gronk. I don't think he's as fast, probably not as fast in the open field anyways. He doesn't have that sort of route nuance to him yet. But this guy, my goodness, he is a snow plow as a runner after the catch. He can reach out and make the extravagant catch. He was a high school basketball star. You can tell that he liked to use the hook shot because he does everything. He actually tries to catch with one hand too much for my liking. I'd love to see him secure it a little bit more. He's a guy I think I think the the scouting would have fallen more in love with him at the senior bowl unfortunately he got hurt um

left after I think it was the first practice not even like halfway through the first practice so that that was a real disappointment because I think it could have been a good coming out party for him because I don't think that the crop that was there was all that great no it really wasn't and with Dallas is there sort of because you've because you've dropped the Gronk reference, and obviously that's going to perk up some ears that are going to be listening to the show. Is there sort of some, are there weaknesses to his game? What about him as a blocker? Those are two areas people will ask about.

Yeah, he tries, again, at blocking. But again, this is where the level of competition comes into place. He is so much bigger than anybody he faces at linebacker or safety and at the fc or he's yeah the fcs level um it's hard to judge how he will do that's one of the reasons why the senior bowl was so disappointing because i wanted to see him can he handle you know getting jammed by okoronkwo and going out and running around against a good linebacker you don't get to see that um he did play some some actual future nfl players. He played Northern Iowa, and they got a couple guys in their defense that are good, but you just want to see more engagement. Again,

like Gasicki, he's a little bit high cut, which makes it tough for him to gain leverage. He doesn't help it because he fires his hands out late and high, which can be taught. That is something that can be coached but you know he's never going to be an he's not a guy that you want as an inline blocker this is another guy that you want as a flexed receiver he can be a motion guy um they used they've actually used him as a split wide out some too uh in a short yardage situation he can do that for you as well but uh not not a not a powerful inline blocking guy um he also needs to work on his routes. Again, this is a function of simply being a dominant athlete at his level. He didn't have to run great routes.

They could just throw it near him, and he could bully people. And that was sort of the way that he approached it, too. Like, I dare you to try and cover me on this. I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do, and I'm still going to beat your ass. And that doesn't fly in the NFL. No, it doesn't fly that often in the nfl but jeff i'm going to ask you here is we're kind of rounding this out to dive into a scary place and that's the mind of bill belichick you're going to take one of these guys which guy are you

going to take and if you want to qualify by sort of round by saying i'd get this guy too and then maybe this guy later in the fourth that's fine too too. Yeah, you know, I think assuming Gronk is back for like two more years, the guy I would pair him with would be Gesicki because I think that he can provide that more outside length. Although Hurst is attractive. I think Gesicki goes a round earlier than Hurst or two rounds. I think he's a second rounder. I don't think there's a first round tight end in this draft.

If there is, the team's making a mistake. But you know, Gasicki in the second round, Goddard, he can be a third rounder. And I'd be happy with, especially with where New England slotted in those rounds, that would be a good value for them. Hurst is probably in that range too. I think Andrews, just because of the way he moves, I think he's going to go later. I like his game, but again, I don't think he's the guy that the Patriots are really looking for. I think he's more of a, I'd like to see him in Kansas City or Cincinnati or someplace like that. I don't necessarily think he fits as well in New England, but he's worth mentioning just because he's a top five talent in this class. He is Jeff Rizdin.

Reminder, you can check out his work over at Real GM as well as Texans Wire, as well as Browns Wire. He's one of the best people to follow on Twitter. Please do that. He is at Jeff Rizdin. Jeff, before I let you go, the mic is yours. Anything you've got coming down the pipe that you'd like to promote? Oh, I just – you covered where I write.

I put a ton of stuff up every day. I publish eight things a day between the two wire sites. I have all sorts of draft stuff coming at Real GM. I tend to break them up by school. I do draft prospecting by school. So like I'll have Ohio State, I'll have Oklahoma, UCLA. I sort of do them that way. And I also do positional stuff too,

but the school way is a little bit more fun because it allows me to watch them binge on a school and do it that way. I get more out of it that way. There you go. Please do follow Jeff if you don't already. If you're not following him, I don't understand what you're doing. That is it for today's show. I'll be back Monday with Luke Inman. We will be going into some offensive

linemen the Patriots might want to look at. Until then, keep it locked right here to me, Mark Schofield, and Locked on Patriots.