Locked On Patriots - Daily Podcast On The New England Patriots - Locked On Patriots February 22, 2018 - Offseason Position Reviews: EDGE with Jon Ledyard

Episode Date: February 22, 2018

Jon Ledyard from Locked On Steelers and Locked On NFL Draft stops by to chat some potential EDGE prospects for the New England Patriots.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Good morning and welcome into Lockdown Patriots for Thursday, February 22nd, 2018. Mark Schofield back in the big chair after an unscheduled day off on Wednesday. Reminded to follow me on Twitter at Mark Schofield. Follow the work over at InsideThePylon.com. Got a Check With Me piece out that came out earlier this week. Two new first sound videos went up as well. One on Lamar Jackson, another on Logan Woodside. You can check those out by following me on Twitter at Mark Schofield. Also, those are posted at the Inside The Pylon YouTube page, youtube.com backslash Inside the Pylon YouTube page. YouTube.com backslash Inside the Pylon.

Today, we're diving back into offseason positional reviews. We're going to talk edge defenders. Going to be joined later by John Ledyard. He is the host of Locked on Steelers. He is the co-host of Locked on Draft. We're going to talk about three guys that the Patriots might want to consider either late in the first round with pick 31 or early in the second with that pick they got from the San Francisco 49ers. But first, let's talk about the guys in the room right now

because Patriots lost some edge defenders as this season began that kind of sort of hurt their ability to put pressure on the quarterback. Two guys that they lost, Dante Hightower, Shane McClellan. Remember, Hightower was used primarily as a pass rusher to the end of the 2016-2017

season. That was where he contributed most. Shane McClellan was also used as a pass rusher. Both those guys were lost for the season, as was rookie Derek Rivers, a third-round draft pick in the 2017 draft out of Youngstown State. He was the all-time career sack leader at Youngstown State

played pretty well at the Senior Bowl that's where he sort of got himself into the day two discussion has some good pass rushing moves including an arm under rip move very much like James Harrison who is also an addition to the Patriots this year. And while Harrison is a free agent, the expectations are that the Patriots are going to try to bring him back. And the Patriots also got contributions from Dietrich Wise, Eric Lee, Trey Flowers, Marquise Flowers as well.

So they added some guys that can sort of help get some pressure off the edge. But pass rush has always been a question mark for the Patriots. Getting back probably as far as I can remember. It always seems to be one of the things that people point to. How are they going to generate pressure on the quarterback? How are they going to get after opposing passers? Are they going to blitz more? Can they add guys? It seems like every draft year

there's the discussion. The Patriots need to address pass rush in this draft. They need to address edge in this draft. But they have bodies to do it right now. They're going to get Hightower back. They're going to get Hightower back they're going to get McClellan back if they bring Harrison back

they've got some guys that can do it the issue for me becomes even with those guys past rushing is sort of becoming like pitching you can never have enough of it look at the Eagles look at how they won this Super Bowl look at one of the biggest plays of Super Bowl 52

it's what I was talking about it's what I was screaming about from the mountaintops Eagles. Look at how they won this Super Bowl. Look at one of the biggest plays of Super Bowl 52. It's what I was talking about. It's what I was screaming about from the mountaintops the entire week and a half before Super Bowl 52. The ability of the Eagles, the ability of Philadelphia to go into their speed rush package where they got good edge guys, but they can kick

a Brandon Graham inside. So now you've basically got three edge type players providing you with pass rush. The ability to bring on extra pass rushers on situations where you have to get after the quarterback, that's a huge

ability for a defense. The ability to rotate pass rushers in and out to keep those guys fresh up front, that's a huge thing for a defense. So even though the Patriots have some guys right now, even though they're going to get some guys back, they could still address this in the offseason. And as we're going to hear in a second from John,

there are a couple of intriguing guys that the Patriots could look at either, you know, late first round, early second round, guys that you've probably heard talked about, guys perhaps that you haven't heard talked about. One of them, the guy we're going to get into, Marcus Davenport, he really sort of caught fire, headed into the senior bowl, but then just sort of underwhelmed down in Mobile. You know, he was bandied about as a potential top 10 player because of the raw talent, the raw traits, but he does need some refinement.

Now we're seeing discussion that he may fall out of the first round. Now with a combine around the corner, that may sort of change things. Edge is one of those positions where you can do some stuff in the drills, you can do some stuff in the testing where you're going to see your stock bump. You're going to see your stock rise as a result. So we'll get into those guys in a moment. But the basic premise that I want to leave you with before we talk to John is this. You can never have enough pass rush.

The most – say what you want about the big draft guys. Say what you want about the Kipers, the Pullians, the Mayocks. Mike Mayock said something years ago when Deion Jordan was drafted in the first round by the Miami Dolphins that has stuck with me. And I've talked about this before. I'll reiterate it again. The most important place on a football field is the seven yards behind the offensive center. You need a guy that can throw from that spot and make the right decisions.

You need guys that can protect that spot on the edges with your tackles. And you need guys on defense that can attack that spot. That's the way the game is right now. Now, maybe the game is shifting. Maybe the offensive paradigm shift that some of us have been wondering about is closer at hand. But until that date fully arrives, that's the most important place on the football field. That's the place you have to protect. That's the place you have to make great decisions from. And that's the place you have to attack.

And so if you're a team entering a draft, if you're a team entering the offseason, do you have enough guys to attack that spot? For most teams, including the New England Patriots, that answer is no. Are there guys they can get in the draft that can help? I believe that answer is yes, and we're going to talk to John Ledger right around the corner about some

of those guys. That's next with me, Mark Schofield and Locked On Patriots. Mark Schofield back with you on this Thursday edition of Locked On Patriots. As I told you, we're going to be diving into some draft prospects at the edge position. And listen, you guys listen to this show knowing full well I'm a QB guy.

But when it comes to other positions, there's times when I need a lot of help. Edge is one of those. So I brought on one of the best. He is the host of Locked On Steelers, the co-host of Locked On Draft. He is one of the best analysts in the business of the edge position. Also does incredible work over at NDT Scouting. This is John Ledyard. John, my friend, how are you today i'm doing great mark thanks for having me man looking forward to it thanks for uh coming on buddy and we're gonna talk for edge guys here and i think the best place to start is a guy that got a lot of buzz when we were down in mobile

marcus davenport university of texas san antonio jeremiah had him up in his top 10 had him at seven in his first mock draft to tampa bay but he slipped a little bit didn't have the best weekend down in mobile what were what are your thoughts on davenport right now yeah i think that he's a very raw prospect who if he were being kind of seen and treated in the proper light we would all kind of be excited about as a day two developmental guy, probably mid to late range. You know, obviously there's a lot of flexibility in there for somebody to reach up and develop a guy if they feel like they have the right staff in place to be able to do that. But that's about it with me. I mean, you know, he is sometimes explosive if he can cut the false step out of

his stance. I think that there's potential there, but again, his stance and kind of his posture before at the line of scrimmage need to be reworked a little bit. You'll consistently see him false step, which slows down that first step off the ball. He plays with a really high pad level around the top of the arc. There's not a great finishing move for him, so he doesn't have like a go-to. He liked to do an outside swim swim I just have not seen that and you know I train I chart edge edge defender sacks and end up watching a ton of edge defender tape in the NFL just to like get a feel for moves that work and things like that and it's just really hard to hit an outside swim and get your hips through on guys in the NFL you know it's just Cam Jordan is the one

guy that sets it up really really well but there just aren't many and I just you know that's the one move you really like to go to. And he doesn't have a great shoulder dip and bend around the edge, you know, and he's a bigger guy. So it's hard for him to reduce his surface area a little bit. So there are definitely some traits there. I'm excited for his combine. I think that he's going to do well there. I don't know that he will blow the doors off this thing. Like people are saying in run a four or five flat at six, seven, almost two 60. I don't know that he will blow the doors off this thing like people are saying and run a four or five flat at six, seven, almost two 60. I don't know if we're going to see that, but I think that he'll do some good things there and we'll be able to evaluate it maybe a little more

fully. And the interview process is going to be fun for him too, because he's got kind of a lazy, like laid back type demeanor. And he even had said in an interview that the coaches had to kind of tell him like listen like we if you put in everything and raise your intensity level this season the nfl teams are going to be talking about you and he did for most of his senior year but you know people are going to have different impressions nfl teams will have different impressions of those statements and whether you know that means that he didn't take it as seriously as he could have before and things like that so i think that part of his evaluation will be interesting for teams too, but he's,

he's a promising talent. I just, I don't know that I would see paid the Patriots is super interested in him, not in round one anyway. Yeah. And to that point, you know, what is it about,

you know, Davenport, whether on the field, off the field or whatever, that gives you sort of that hesitation when you link him or potentially link him to new England. Yeah. I think that I don't, when you look at New England,

there are guys that maybe are a little bit rarer from small schools, but I think that the big thing with Davenport to me is, I mean, the size maybe a bit like they've gotten some guys to play on the edge. Not quite at his size, probably, but they're bigger. A lot of times that doesn't seem to be a huge priority for them. I think they like a little more polish. Derek Rivers last year was an example of a guy who played at a smaller school. They're polished in his approach. Very assignment sound, run defender, good with his hands,

and had that legit bend and flexibility, the athleticism that you want too. So I think if they're looking for a guy to play on the edge, the one thing Davenport would give them is some flexibility maybe to be able to play inside but they kind of have that with guys like trey flowers and dietrich wise now so i'm not sure that they'd be looking for that so i think they're looking for a true explosive bender type pass rusher and i'm just not sure that that's what davenport offers at this point so we'll see as we get closer we'll probably hear more and more but but I don't know. I think maybe I'd be a little bit surprised to see new England, uh, attracted to Davenport at the end of the first. So John, let's move away from a smaller school guy and go to a big school

guy. And this is somebody you suggested when we were talking about doing the show and that's Sam Hubbard, Ohio state. What attracts you about Hubbard right now well i think hubbard is the opposite of davenport really um you know not not maybe high end upside and again i don't know if davenport is high end upside but not maybe the upside that davenport has but very much a finished product it's weird because he only has 22 starts on the edge he came to ohio state as a five-star recruited safety everybody's gonna think he's raw and the announcers during the combine are probably going to say, you know, this guy, blah, blah, blah, needs technical work or things like that, but he's, you know,

the raw gifts from being a converted safety are off the charts. It's actually the complete opposite with Hubbard's tape. He's extremely polished, very good with his hands, great decision-maker on the edge, great assignment-sound run defender. There's just not a lot in terms of run defense. There's not a lot that at least you're wanting more from his tape. But where he doesn't really give you much is in terms of real juice off the edge. I think he's going to be a capable pass rusher, good vision.

He works back inside when he gets too deep, doesn't let himself get pushed up the arc. But there just isn't really – you have to be able to kind of win decisively in some fashion to be high on pass pressure, I think. And Hubbard doesn't really have the bend and flexibility or the burst to be able to win the edge. And even though he can get back inside, I don't know that NFL tackles let that happen as easily when you're not an edge winner, at least to some degree. And he doesn't really have the power moves to go through guys.

So I think Hubbard will be somewhat limited, but he will get tons of hustle sacks like he did at Ohio State he'll get those in the NFL because he can move well he just doesn't have quote-unquote pass rush athleticism that flexibility in his hips and in his ankles and I think that he'll move well though and I think he'll consistently find good paths to the quarterbacks and there's enough bad tackles in the NFL that he'll have a couple games a year that bump his sack totals and you know the Patriots they do a good amount I think with taking their players and moving them around and that's something Hubbard did really well at Ohio State you know he moved around a little bit he would play inside he would stand up over the center and so that part of things would appeal to them as well but a plug and play guy that that just plays non-stop with his hair on fire super

physical I really think that that aspect of things would appeal to Belichick. Yeah, and to that point, John, do you think sort of his background as a converted safety, the way you talked about him seems like a Simon Sound type of guy with some versatility. That sounds and that screams to me as a Pats guy, you know, that's a New England Patriots pick. That's a Belichick pick. As an outsider, somebody that sees the entire league, but, you know, you see this's a new england patriots pick that's a belichick pick as an outsider somebody that sees the entire league but you know you see this team a lot is that something that sounds right to you my assessment of them oh yeah for sure i mean it just kind of the traits and the way that he carries the demeanor you know just it's kind of all screams new england i mean really

it does um you know i think that even a somewhat, I think Rob Ninkovich had a lower ceiling than Hubbard has. You know, Hubbard I don't even think has a high ceiling, which tells you. I thought Ninkovich was kind of a limited guy. Hubbard is like a better version of that basically, I think. You know, a guy that you can just trust. You know, he's just not going to mess up. He's going to be a great part of your team. He's going to consistently give you everything.

He's going to make hustle plays. When the game gets tight, he's going to be going harder and faster than everybody else. His conditioning is going to be excellent. He's packed weight on himself, still somehow able to play heavy snap count when they needed him to play late in games consistently. I mean, he, I don't think there was ever a second where he took a playoff. I mean, his tape is just him running to the ball constantly. And so I think those kinds of things will really appeal to the culture in New England. Speaking of a guy that had some weight issues as well as some other sort of issues away from the field,

that's LSU's Arden Key, who's a name that could probably improve his stock at the Combine. But what are your thoughts on him? I'm not sure that the Combine matters to anyone like it matters to Arden Key, any position. Because not only does Key have to prove he's a high-end athlete with great upside, but the weigh-ins are going to be huge for him. Because remember, he gained all that weight at the beginning of the season for LSU. He was pretty bad. Then he dropped a ton of it in season. It was really weird.

And then he kind of regained his explosiveness and finished off the year okay. He's had an extremely volatile career at LSU. He was like stepping away from the game and from the program. And then he came back and he's been hurt. And, you know, just the medicals are going to be huge. The interviews with teams will be huge. There's been reports that he has off-the-field issues on Randy Gregory-like levels and that really scares teams.

You know, I don't know I've heard not good things at all along those lines so that part is going to be huge all the testing that goes along with that and so I just think that when it comes to Arden Key you've got so many questions at every stage of the combine process that need to be answered and there's just so much uncertainty around him you don't see him mocked in the first round much right now because people are just kind of scared off by him you know and i don't blame him and i think nfl teams honestly will be too unless they get some overwhelming confidence from the combine so he has a ton riding on this

ton riding on the combine now maybe more so than any other player that's going to be in indianapolis now provided sort of that those issues check out that teams get some sort of semblance or some reassurance that the medicals check out that the off the field that checks out what about him on the field because like you said volatile there as well right yeah it really is it's just inconsistent and that's kind of been the whole theme of his career just kind of seems like there's nothing really to hang your hat on with him um you know he's listed for nfl.com site anyway 66265 there were reports he was at 230 when he was at his best and then bulked up to close to 275 maybe even higher he had written on his twitter um so i don't know where he played at that's going to be the other question where Where did you play at? What happened with your weight?

Because it seemed like it moved around so much, like you said, the shoulder surgery and things like that. But to me, the big thing is guys with his body type haven't translated really well. Like if he is legit 6'6", and as lanky as he was, haven't translated really well. So it's kind of hard to see okay and then you take the body type and then look at key's tape and you can understand why because a lot of the time he he is flexible in weird ways but i wouldn't say that he bends through contact really well like if you give him a cleaner edge he can cut it a little bit trimmer but i don't think that he bends through contact

particularly well at the top of the arc because i don't think he has that real that real strength in his lower body now he does have a nice dip or a rip move with it with his inside arm when he goes through that but again it's just there's he doesn't set up pass rushes really his spin move is just kind of spinning in place and a lot of the time he's just energy without a purpose. So especially when he was heavier too, he did not have the same burst off the ball. So that's going to be when, when he, when he started off the season, he just looked sluggish off the ball. And then there are times where he plays really uninspired football, like just kind of looks like he's totally out of it on the field. And then there's other times where he like his pace is insane and he's

like losing energy celebrating after plays because he's losing his mind so much i mean he's just it's just all over the place it's hard to even describe that you will not watch tape and see many players like garden key in so many different ways because he'll have some he'll have some plays where you're like really impressed and he'll have some effort plays that are really just kind of jaw-dropping like the hustle and the effort and the intensity and then they'll have some effort plays that are really just kind of jaw dropping, like the hustle and the effort and the intensity. And then they'll have plays where he just doesn't even look like he knows where he is. So it is, he's a very difficult player to quantify. All of it seems to kind of paint the picture of a guy that terrifies me in terms of being, being a guy that you want to draft high, you know, maybe if he's available later and he's sliding,

you take the chance, but you know, top 25 recruit nationally. I mean, he definitely has the pedigree coming out and there's been enough signs of traits that someone's good, but he's just, he might be the highest risk pick in the draft. I mean, he really has that type of floor ceiling where it could be like, I could see him being out of the league and I could see him developing into a stud. Now, maybe not a star. So maybe that, maybe I don't think his ceiling is quite that high, but I think he can certainly be a good player if he gets it all together. Lastly, we're going to talk about on

this list here, and we do it for a couple of reasons. One, there's the Rutgers connection, but two, this is a guy that maybe didn't produce a ton while he was in school, but he caught some eyes down in Mobile. I know you were a fan of what he did down there, and that's Kameko Ture from Rutgers. What can you tell us about him, John? Yeah, Touré is very interesting. Yeah, and the Rutgers-Patriots connection, too, trying to keep it alive. But I think he has terrific bend and flexibility around the edge. And I didn't see it at first on tape, went back, revisited. I think I see it more in his ankles on tape, although in Mobile I saw it in his hips and his ankles.

So he's more of an edge tilter than he is a bender. So kind of a dip your shoulder, but turn your ankles to the pocket, turn your feet to the pocket rather than really bending through contact, which is something you see like Vaughn Miller doing, some guys like that. He kind of reminds me of the way that Yannick Ngakwe is able to get around the corner without having great bend. And his strength through contact is a lot better than people think it or than I thought it was, I should say. And I think that most people do because he has kind of that lankier frame. So again, his frame isn't totally dissimilar. I think he was six, four

something, but not totally dissimilar from Arden Key. So again, there's some concerns with that frame, but I think he was a little bit more compact and a little bit stronger through contact. And I think that's been the big difference with some of those guys with longer frames. They're lankier. They're not as compact. And then when they face contact at the top of the arc, it's not enough to get by on pure athleticism.

You're going to have some level of contact. You're not just going to run around everybody at this level. You're going to have some level of contact to work through some level of a punch or hand usage from a tackle. You've got to be able to trim through that and keep moving in really a tough direction to keep moving in. So to me, that's what Trey has. And at the top of the arc, I really like that about him. There are times when he gets inside of you too. So he's, he's got a little bit more ability or a little more thought process as a pass rusher than I thought he did. His hand usage is a little bit better. The concerns with Trey are that sometimes there's no plan of attack

and he's inconsistent too. Like as an edge setter and run defense, he will, he'll get bounced off the line of scrimmage and he'll get rolled sometimes. You know, I mean, he'll, you'll have, you'll see him have his issues in one-on-one contact out there and you'll see some lack of awareness stuff too, unblocked situations, getting kicked out a little bit, not really stepping down. So there's some concerns with him as an every down player. I think he's going to be a good pass rusher. I really do. The other big concern is the shoulders. He's had a couple of shoulder surgeries and like you said, very little production. A lot of people think that he lost most of his sophomore and junior year after a good freshman season. A lot of people think that he lost most of his sophomore and junior year after a good freshman season.

A lot of people think that his shoulders are going to keep him from ever being the player that he once showed the signs of being as a freshman and going to keep him on the field. So we'll see what those medicals reveal at the Combine. But right now, yeah, it really is just kind of a consistency thing with Toure. There's definite – I would say that the upside with him is greater than it is with Davenport and probably even Key, to be honest. But he's been so up and down again like Key kind of, and he's been so unavailable. Is he able to be coachable? There were some reports that he was in the doghouse a little bit too

during some of his time at Rutgers, but he wouldn't be the first player to have issues at Rutgers and not be used the best way either. So think that there could be the best could be out in front of Ture and I really like his traits John we'll get you out of here on this I'm going to ask you to dive into a scary scary place and that's the mind of Bill Belichick obviously I've picked 31 at the end of the first they've got an early pick in the second that 49ers pick somewhere in the 10 to 11 range dependent on a coin flip and then I pick again at the end of the first, they've got an early pick. In the second, that 49ers pick somewhere in the 10 to 11 range, depending on a coin flip.

And then a pick again at the end of the second. If they do go edge, where would you feel comfortable picking one of these guys? What do you think the Pats would do if they go edge? One of these guys, I would probably wait for one of these guys. But Davenport will probably be gone if they do that. Davenport may be gone before the Patriots pick anyway, from what we're hearing anyway from reports. It's too early to take a risk on Ture or Key in my opinion probably.

Depending on what the combine reveals about Ture, the first is probably too early. That's probably too rich for me. I'm not that ballsy of a guy. But then I think Hubbard will be probably loved. Now I'm just guessing, but I just thinkfl teams are really gonna like him i don't because he's a sure pick i mean ryan anderson went i mean you knew you weren't getting any pass rush from ryan anderson he went the second round last year you knew you were just getting a hustle guy a tough guy who was a good run defender i mean i thought it was a dumb pick i think hubbard

is a much better player much ranger much a bigger area of impact at both as a pass rusher and a run defender than anderson is i would get on board with that pick a little bit more, but I think that he's, I'm not, I would like to say he's there. Where do the Patriots pick in the second round again? I, it's dependent on a coin flip.

It's either the 10th pick in the second or the 11th. So it's like 43 or so. He's probably on the board in that range for them. I think, I don't think he's going to go first round. I know some people think that I don't think Sam Hubbard's going to go first round. I think the combine is going to push him back down the board. Ideally, you'd love to land a guy like Sam Hubbard at 63, but the reality is the Patriots need a guy, they need an impact guy. So, um, we'll see what they, what they end up

coming up with. But you know, if you're, I don't know where I'd take key. We're going to see what comes out of the combine. Uh, my guess is that Trey won't be an option for teams as high as 63, but I would probably have him. He'll probably be on my board somewhere around that, that spot. So I could see, I could see getting on board with that. If you've got two solid picks in the books,

I had a Trey taking a little chance at that point. He is John Leonard. You probably are, but just in case, please, please, please follow him on Twitter at ledger NFL draft. John, incredible stuff before

we go the mic is yours plug some stuff you got coming down the pipe for us man i got linebacker rankings dropping uh today in a couple minutes i think over at ndtscouting.com um so you guys can check those out uh always got nfl draft stuff coming up at fan rag sports ndt scouting and then of course locked on nfl draft podcast with trevor and i we go five days a week right now we're previewing the combine giving our predictions for all the different combine drills for all the different position groups so having a lot of fun with it as always and uh yeah that's i'm all over the place if you if you throw a rock you'll probably hit me there we go john fantastic stuff as always please do follow john check out all his great work that will do it for today's show. I will be back

tomorrow. We will be talking some defensive backs, some cornerbacks in this class with Luke Inman, a friend of the show as well. Until then, keep it locked right here on the Mark Schofield and Locked on Pitch.