Locked On Patriots - Daily Podcast On The New England Patriots - New England Patriots: Two-Man Race in Coach Search? Mike Vrabel vs. Ben Johnson; Enter Aaron Glenn?

Starting point is 00:00:00 The New England Patriots coaching search is off to a fast start, but is it really just a two-man race? Stick around, you're about to be locked in to the Locked On Patriots Podcast. You are Locked On Patriots, your daily New England Patriots podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. Hello to all of you, Foxborough faithful. Thank you once again for making Locked On Patriots a daily part of your New England Patriots coverage and hopefully your first listen each and every day. I'm your host, Mike DeBate.

Starting point is 00:00:38 I cover your New England Patriots for Patriots country. Reach out to me. Let me know what's on your mind on X at MDABATENFL. You can catch me over where the skies are blue on Blue Sky at MDABATENFL.BSKY.SOCIAL. And of course, you can send some social media love to Locked

Starting point is 00:00:56 On Patriots on our X account at LO underscore Patriots. And Pats fans, today's episode is brought to you by our friends over at FanDuel. You can start the season by our friends over at FanDuel you can start the season with a big return on FanDuel new customers can place a five dollar bet and you'll get started with two hundred dollars in bonus bets if you win or lose your first five dollar bet visit FanDuel.com to get started Pats fans it has been quite the roller coaster ride for your New England Patriots, with the

Starting point is 00:01:26 Patriots losing both their head coach, Gerard Mayo, and the number one overall pick in the 2025 NFL Draft in the aftermath of their 23-16 victory over the Buffalo Bills. Yeah, I don't think roller coaster ride really does it justice, but the Patriots, to their credit, have acted pretty quickly in attempting to fill their now vacant head coach position and today on the pod we have an excitingly insightful show on tap for you I'm going to start by bringing you the very latest on the Patriots interview front I'm going to share my opinion on why today's update was a good sign that the Patriots are taking this search seriously but stay with us from there because that's where the real fun

Starting point is 00:02:05 begins. Not one, but two expert analysts from our Locked On Podcast Network right here are going to be joining me to discuss arguably the two top names on the candidate board. And you pretty much know who those names are. Who better than the host of Locked On

Starting point is 00:02:22 Titans to bring us valuable information on Mike Rabel, who is scheduled to interview with the New England Patriots on Thursday. Well, his name is Tyler Rowland, and he's going to be here in just a moment. But we are not stopping there because Matt Deary, host of Locked On Lions, is also going to drop by and he's going to give you his analysis on Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson. And of course, per league regulations, Ben is allowed to virtually interview on Friday.

Starting point is 00:02:49 The Lions are still in the midst of a playoff run. So an extra special treat for all of you everydayers out there. If you're a casual listener or a first timer, this is a great day for tuning in to Locked On Patriots. Because only here on Locked On Patriots will you find insight on both Rabel and Johnson brought to you by the local experts who covered them and who know them better than anybody. So stay locked into Locked On Patriots, Pats fans. I guarantee you, you are not going to want to miss a single second of the action.

Starting point is 00:03:17 But before I welcome in Tyler and eventually Matt to the pod, I thought it would be a good opportunity to catch you up on the Patriots coaching search. And since Sunday's firing of Gerard Mayo Patriots have conducted interviews with Pep Hamilton and Byron Leftwich those have both been in-person interviews they took place on Tuesday and in case you're wondering yes both of these interviews satisfied the Rooney rule requirement of interviewing at least two diversity candidates. Of course, we all remember Leftwich being best remembered from his playing days as quarterback of the Jacksonville Jaguars, but he also rose through the coaching ranks pretty quickly in 2021

Starting point is 00:03:53 with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers as he helped guide Tom Brady in the Bucs offense to being one of the top units in the NFL. A little bit of a decline in 2022 cost him his job, and he has not coached in the NFL since that time. That's also the case with Pep Hamilton, who has been a longtime offensive assistant in the NFL. Most recently, he served with the Houston Texans as their offensive coordinator in 2022. So again, based on Tuesday's activities, the local and the national media have now gone into overdrive in saying that the formalities are done.

Starting point is 00:04:24 It's down to a two-man race between Mike Vrabel and Ben Johnson. And I understand the cynicism with the media and with all of you out there in the fan base. But I also want to point out that I do think it's disrespectful to both Byron Leftwich and to Pep Hamilton to say that these guys were simply brought in for formalities. I can tell you that the organization thinks very highly both of Byron and of Pat, and that either of them, or potentially even both of them, taking roles within the Patriots coaching staff is a definite possibility. Pats are not going to bring anybody through these doors unless they're interested in what they can provide to the team. There's also another part of this process that I wanted to set the record straight on, and that is why these candidates were brought in so early. It's easy to think that the only reason the Patriots interviewed these candidates so early was that they wanted to make the Vrabel versus Johnson choice as soon as

Starting point is 00:05:14 possible and get someone in to fill this job. If I'm being honest, I was one of them. That was until Wednesday evening, and that's when SI's Albert Breer reported that the Patriots have requested permission to speak with Detroit Lions defensive coordinator Aaron Glenn as a potential candidate for their head coaching position now this tells me that the Patriots are serious about being comprehensive and as the great Don would say I'm gonna give you my reasons look Vrabel might be the guy Ben Johnson might be the guy it may end up coming down to a two-man race. But bringing in Aaron Glenn at least shows to me that the New England Patriots are open to hearing any and all ideas. And they want to do so from a solid group of candidates.

Starting point is 00:05:56 Now, unfortunately, Matt Derry joined me here on the pod before word of Aaron's interview hit the newswire. So we didn't get a chance to discuss Aaron's prowess. Hoping to have him back on soon so we can do that, but just from reading his resume and from briefly talking to people around the league about Aaron's prowess, I can tell you bringing him in is not a formality. Aaron Glenn is going to make a solid head coach in the NFL,

Starting point is 00:06:19 and the Patriots would be very smart to seriously hear his pitch. We all know about the strides made by Detroit's offense, and Matt's going to offer some great insight on Ben Johnson and his accomplishments there in just a little bit, so folks, stay tuned. You are not going to want to miss it, but Aaron Glenn has been stellar in the Motor City when it comes to the defense of the Detroit Lions. This is now a top 10 defense. Detroit allowed a 61.1% completion percentage and a league low 82.0 passer rating. Opposing quarterbacks were only able to complete 18 touchdowns against them and

Starting point is 00:06:53 were responsible for 16 interceptions. On the ground, the Lions were equally as formidable, allowed only 98.4 rushing yards per game. And think about this, folks. They did all of this despite losing the likes of defensive end Aiden Hutchinson, defensive tackle Aleem McNeil, linebacker Derek Barnes, and cornerback Carlton Davis to injured reserve. Talk about getting the most out of their unit. Next man up, Aaron Glenn is sounding awful Patriot-like, isn't he, in that regard? And he's been solid on the defensive side of the ball since his playing days he was a former first round draft pick played the cornerback position for a number of nfl teams this is his fourth year as detroit's defensive coordinator and under his leadership that unit has only

Starting point is 00:07:34 continued to grow and grow in stature so if i'm the patriots i'm excited about aaron glenn interviewing for this position and at the very least i think it sends the message that right now this is more than a two-man race. Once again, if I'm the New England Patriots brass, I'm paying close attention and I'm hearing every word Aaron Glenn has to say.

Starting point is 00:07:53 And speaking of that, it is time to listen to the words, the wisdom and counsel of my colleagues here on the Locked On NFL channel, starting with Tyler Rowland, who is about to offer his unique and candid insight on

Starting point is 00:08:06 Mike Vrabel, who will once again, folks, be walking through the doors of Gillette Stadium on Thursday for his interview. You loved him as a player. We all did. But what kind of coach might he make? We'll discuss this and more when this episode of the Locked On Patriots podcast continues.

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Starting point is 00:09:17 an official sportsbook partner of the NFL. Patriots fans, as a player, Mike Vrabel spent eight seasons here in New England won three Super Bowls not only was he an all-pro linebacker during his time with the Pats but he also showcased his versatility on 12 occasions calling in 12 touchdown passes and of course it made him a beloved figure here in New England no surprise as to why he continues to be a patriot at heart even after his tenure as head coach of the Tennessee Titans. For many, Mike Vrabel possesses the resume and experience to be a strong fit here in New England as the 16th head coach in franchise history. But today, we're going to give you a unique look at Mike Vrabel, an insider's

Starting point is 00:10:03 look at Mike Vrabel, the insider's look at Mike Vrabel, the coach of the Tennessee Titans. And my guest today, his insight is as honest as they come, folks. He is the host of Lockdown Titans, the madman of the hosting tandem of Lockdown NFL. Most importantly, my good friend and colleague, Tyler Rowland. But thanks so much for joining me here today and welcome to Lockdown Patriots. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Mike.

Starting point is 00:10:25 Always a pleasure to talk to you. We had our crossover earlier this year that was a good time, even if the seasons we just experienced weren't necessarily as good of a time. Absolutely. You know, our fan base is still waiting for some laurels to be thrown our way from the Titans for basically giving you guys the first overall pick. Now, I kid you not. The Titans did it the right way.

Starting point is 00:10:44 The Patriots did not and that's one of the reasons why the Patriots may be looking for a new head coach and lo and behold they may be looking for one that you know quite well in Mike Rabel and after serving as defensive coordinator for the Houston Texans back in 2017 Rabel was hired as Tennessee's head man in 2018 and he had a bird's eye view for his entire coaching tenure in Tennessee. Led the Titans to a pair of nine and seven seasons in his first two years with the team. Took them to the playoffs in 2019. Upset the Patriots and the Ravens. Got to the AFC Championship game. Everything's looking great. The Titans then improved to 11-5, 12-5 in his next couple of seasons, took the AFC's top seed in 2021, but

Starting point is 00:11:27 didn't quite have the same success in the postseason. That's when all of a sudden the wheels started to come off a little bit in Tennessee, and of course Frabel was let go after 2023. Last season, he spent the season as a consultant for the Cleveland Browns. Now, Tyler, usually I like to end things on a high note here in New England, especially on Locked On Patriots, but Patriots fans have suffered enough this season. Let's start with the positives. What about Mike Vrabel's record?

Starting point is 00:11:53 What about his tenure coaching the Tennessee Titans leads you to believe that he still has the ability to be a top flight head coach in the NFL? Well, one thing that I said when Mike Vrabel was let go by the Titans, I was in favor of letting Mike Vrabel go. Now, that might have been a mistake looking back on things now based on the structure that they had in the organization. But one thing I said throughout the process was Mike Vrabel is a good football coach. He is a good coach.

Starting point is 00:12:19 He may not be the right coach for where the Titans are at as a team and as a roster, but he is a good coach. So no matter what, what you know is firmly established. It's not like when you hire a first year head coach with Mike Rabel, you know, he has experience. He knows how he wants to run his practices. He knows how he wants to set up his staff. Like there are things that you figure out on the job in your first year, like Geron Mayo probably was, even if you learn. And even if you are mentored by somebody like doing it yourself is just different in life and learning things on your

Starting point is 00:12:50 own. And you don't have to worry about that learning curve with Mike Vrabel. So he's going to be experienced. He's going to be ready to go. And he understands the game. I think that's the number one, most important thing is he truly understands the game from everyone's perspective. He knows how, you know, what coaches are experiencing. He knows what players are experiencing. So that allows him to be prepared for moments that maybe other people wouldn't be prepared for, because he's seen every reaction a player can have, or every way a player can take a piece of information. He's seen a bunch of different coaches and how they take information. So he's just prepared for all scenarios and all situations. It's like a football Batman in a sense, you know, like if you, if you give him time, if

Starting point is 00:13:31 you give him time, he can beat anybody, you know? And that's the truth with Mike Vrabel. He was really good after like bi-weeks and, and many buys that you get from primetime games and stuff like that. He did pretty well with those in his career. So he's just a guy that's always going to be fully prepared for any situation that presents itself within a football game and having someone who doesn't like flinch at the moment or get nervous or get worried. He's experienced it at all at the highest level. So you always have someone

Starting point is 00:13:59 who's cool, calm and collected and knows exactly what to do in every situation on the sideline. And that's super important in game during the games to happen. And then, of course, he has the ability to coach every single position. Mike Vrabel is a football savant. He understands how defensive backs should press. And, of course, his linebackers, he knows how to coach them. But he can coach an offensive lineman on a combo block and getting up to the second level. Like, he understands every aspect of playing football.

Starting point is 00:14:27 So being that prepared for situations while also being that equipped to coach your players, literally hands-on coach your players, that's a really good combination. It makes for a really good head coach. First of all, I love what you said about him being a football savant, about him being prepared for any situation. Bill Belichick described Mike Grable as one of the smartest players he ever coached. Always knew where everyone needed to be on the field, whether it was him or whether it

Starting point is 00:14:52 was his teammates. And he was vocal enough to let you know where they needed to be and when they needed to be there. So that type of insight will always endear him to New England Patriots fans. And it's nice to know he's carried that from the field to the coaching box the other part of what you said kind of flew under the radar a little bit but I do want to highlight this when it comes to Patriots fans folks teams coming out of buys coming out of breaks that's when you really know that your football coach is getting through to your players if these guys are coming out playing well playing hard especially if they went into

Starting point is 00:15:22 that buy or break with a loss. You want to see them come out and give 110%, 120%, a lot more than they gave on the field in a losing effort. That's something we didn't see from the Patriots this year. I had that Arizona Cardinals game circled on my schedule for the New England Patriots coming out of a very late season buy. Can they come out and play hard they did not against the arizona cardinals and i think that may have been some of the undoing for gerard mayo right off the bat so great insight tyler thank you so much for that but turnabout is fair play and i do want to let patriots fans know that tyler did say he was in favor of letting mike go at the time tyler i don't

Starting point is 00:16:02 want to put you on the hot seat but i'm going going to my friend. Cause I know I can, when you look at his coaching tenure, uh, was there something specifically, uh, about either the way he interacted with management or his coaching style on the field? What should make Patriots fans give this one a second thought if Mike Vrabel is named head coach? Well, I think that you could do a lot worse than Mike Vrabel. So I think that for the Patriots, it would Mike Vrabel. So I think that for the Patriots, it would be a fantastic hire. So I'm not, when I say these things, I'm not trying to say that they should necessarily scare Patriots fans away, but if things do not go well, if the Patriots make this move, it'll come down to these three things. Number one, while Mike Vrabel knows

Starting point is 00:16:40 everything that you can about football, I don't think he's very creative or a good play caller. So he doesn't do well with play sequencing on defense. He's not a creative schematic guy on either side of the ball. He knows everything that you can know, but innovating and pushing things forward. I don't think that's really what Mike Vrabel is going to do. So creativity when it comes to scheme and play calling is not, I would say

Starting point is 00:17:05 one of his top uh skills as a coach I also say his ability to hire assistants is really what ultimately doomed him in Tennessee in my opinion well it might be number three but number two is definitely he has not consistently hired good assistant coaches he hired a terrible offensive line coach in his last year in Tennessee in Jason Hotaling, who was not terrible, but he wasn't ready to be a top-tier offensive line coach in the NFL, and that's what the Titans needed. His hires at offensive coordinator, he struck lightning in a bottle

Starting point is 00:17:38 with Arthur Smith, who became a head coach for the Falcons, but that also probably had a lot to do with Derrick Henry and A.J. Brown being on the team. But after that, Todd Downing, who has been a complete failure for the New York Jets this year, he was the Titans offensive coordinator for two seasons. And then he hired Tim Kelly, who's more middle of the road, but he just wasn't very good at hiring assistants. And that makes it very difficult to have consistent winning seasons if you're unable to hire consistency at your assistant position. So the third and final thing is Mike Vrabel is cantankerous. He's a rugged guy.

Starting point is 00:18:14 He's rough around the edges. And at the end of the day, it comes down to office politics. And this is something that all your listeners have experienced at their job. There are just certain people who they may be good at the job, but they're just difficult to deal with on a daily basis. And in these organizations, it may not seem like that for fans outside who aren't in it on a daily basis, but that wears on people. And Mike Vrabel could maybe not get along with Elliott Wool for other people

Starting point is 00:18:41 and others. Power struggles within the organization, and that's what doomed the Titans in Mike Vrabel's tenure with him is he got in power struggles. He was rubbing people the wrong way in the organization, and the Titans aren't a good organization, and the Patriots are. So maybe that's less of an issue, but his creativity as a scheme guy, his ability to hire quality assistants consistently,

Starting point is 00:19:01 and then just his rugged personality that rubs people the wrong way. Those are the three downfalls, I would say, to the Mike Vrabel experience. Excellent insight once again. And to play devil's advocate and to give the Patriots side of things when it comes to rebuffing some of these folks, when it comes to cantankerous, yeah, I think Patriots fans media have a PhD in dealing with cantankerous head coaches. Bill Belichick was definitely as ornery sometimes as they come. But once you realize the value that he brought to the table

Starting point is 00:19:31 each and every day on the field and his X's and O's knowledge was second to none, I'm still a firm believer in that. So I think Patriots fans will put up with that as long as the evidence on the field bears it out. As long as the New England Patriots are winning, I think they'll put up with that. And they did. And that's how it was in Tennessee. Exactly. Until the winnings stopped, that was fine.

Starting point is 00:19:52 But once the winnings stopped, now it's too much to take. And that's just life. Absolutely. And the last four years of Belichick's tenure here in New England were quite different from what he was dealing with in his first 20. So I completely get that. When it comes to hiring assistants, we've heard now that Mike has supposedly top tier, top level assistants that he's been eyeing for whatever job he takes.

Starting point is 00:20:14 And if it is the Patriots, I think he realizes that he's going to need experienced coaches around him. That experience he has in the head chair is more than what the Patriots had last year in Gerard Mayo. However, they're going to need solid coaches, solid football guys that know their craft, know their individual role, and are able to put it forth on the field. So that could be a lesson he's learned, and that speaks well for Mike Bray. The last thing that you mentioned I think is actually going to lead us quite nicely

Starting point is 00:20:40 into our next guest here on Locked On Patriots Today. Another of my colleagues is going to come in in a moment and talk about a younger, perhaps more innovative play caller on offense who might be a very good fit for the Patriots. That is Ben Johnson of the Detroit Lions. And who knows him better than the host of Locked On Lions? Matt Deary is going to pop in here in just a moment to give you all the ins and outs, the ups and downs, and an insider's look at Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson. But first, Tyler, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule for

Starting point is 00:21:12 coming in here to Lockdown Patriots today. Before I let you go, my friend, please, are there any more parting words of wisdom on behalf of or in detriment to Mike Vrabel, the head coach, potentially being chosen by the New England Patriots from an insider's perspective? I'll say one thing good and one thing bad quickly. The good thing is that Mike Vrabel is great with in-game decision-making. That's a huge X factor to his coaching experience.

Starting point is 00:21:39 And Patriots fans may remember when the Titans gamed the rulebook against them in the playoffs and wasted a bunch of time by committing false starts on a punt, and they had to change the rule in the offseason because Mike Vrabel was so smart in the rulebook that he was gaming the rule against the Patriots to waste like two minutes of time in that critical playoff game. So there's an example of it. And two, I do worry about Mike Vrabel's fit with a young quarterback.

Starting point is 00:22:03 That's not anything that he's ever dealt with before. And if I'm the Patriots, I love the Mike Vrabel's fit with a young quarterback. That's not anything that he's ever dealt with before. And if I'm the Patriots, I love the Mike Vrabel emotional tie. He is a good football coach. But I would probably lean towards Ben Johnson because you need to get the most out of Drake May. And I think you'd get that with Ben Johnson and Mike Vrabel. That might be more Matt Eberflus and Caleb Williams in Chicago feelings than what you would get with Ben Johnson,

Starting point is 00:22:24 who's more of a cultivator of a young quarterback, in my opinion. So that's just my two cents on it, but I don't think it would be a bad hire whatsoever. It would be a good move for the Patriots. Folks, he is Tyler Rowland. His opinions are honest. They are candid, but they are insightful. And I know you have filled Patriots Nation today with wisdom and counsel, my friend, beyond your years.

Starting point is 00:22:44 I thank you for all of your insight and for your appearance today. Patriots fans, Matt Deary of Lockdown Lions is about to hop in here in just one moment talking all things Ben Johnson when this episode of the Lockdown Patriots podcast continues, a proud part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team, every day. Lockdown listeners, listeners. It's playoff time. And if you're like me, you want to make the most of these final weeks of football action. That's where PrizePix comes in.

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Starting point is 00:25:27 That's rocketmoney.com slash locked on. rocketmoney.com slash locked on. Patriots fans, welcome back to Locked On Patriots. And a name that isn't just on the New England Patriots coaching radar right now, but is also on the reported list of those that have been offered an invite to interview for the position is Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson, the innovative play caller who at this point seems to be the bell of the ball when it comes to coaching searches out there in the New England Patriots have been taking notice. They've invited Johnson, who according to Tom Palacero of NFL Network, is intrigued

Starting point is 00:26:09 by the position. Could that mean that this could be a great fit in Foxborough? We are going to go to the source here and give you insight that you can find only here on Lockdown Patriots when it comes to Ben Johnson, the potential head coach in the NFL. He is my friend, my colleague, Matt Deary of Lockdown Lions. Matt, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule joining me here today. Welcome to Lockdown Patriots, bud. Mike, it's been too long, man.

Starting point is 00:26:35 I haven't seen you in a while. And great to reconnect and talk a little Ben Johnson with you. Absolutely. And Matt, for a team right now of the New England Patriots, we have watched our team regress here from an offense which brought so many people to its feet for so many years with Tom Brady as your quarterback and Josh McDaniels as your offensive coordinator to a team that now ranks 31st in overall offense this season, dead last in passing offense, 32nd, no higher than 29th when it comes to red zone offense

Starting point is 00:27:06 third down offense and scoring offense I think it's obvious that something needs to change and it needs to change quick Ben Johnson has become the hot name out there on the coaching circuit when it comes to turning around an offense an innovative play caller someone who has not only the insight but the wisdom beyond his years to be an impactful member of a franchise and take it from one level and elevate it to the next. We've seen it these last three years in Detroit as offensive coordinator, but you know, Ben, as well as anybody, if not better, what contributions has he made to this Lions offense that has

Starting point is 00:27:42 helped them get to where they are right now, number one seed in the NFC, and on the verge of potentially competing for a Super Bowl. Mike, I think you said it best, a guru, genius, all of those things really do come to fruition. Look, you got to have talent. You know that, and the Patriots don't have much talent on that offense. You got to have a good offensive line, which the Lions do. Ben Johnson seems to pull all the levers. He got to have a good offensive line with a lot, which the lions do. Ben Johnson seems to pull all the levers. He seems to know, all right, I can get away with certain things. I can go jumbo package. I can, you know, put Amin Ross, St. Brown in motion, Jamison Williams in motion, utilize the tight ends and the running backs. He just seems to have a great feel for the game and

Starting point is 00:28:21 does not really care about, uh about opening up the playbook too early or showing a trick play in week 14 when it should have been a week 18. He's got an immense, immense trick bag, and he's utilized it this year. The pre-snap motion, number one, is what has made Ben Johnson and this Lions offense so effective. Just throwing off the other team's defense, putting different men in motion, constant motion. Linebackers and safeties having to swivel one way, then the Lions go another way.

Starting point is 00:28:51 He's excellent at that. Play action passing game under Jared Goff for the last three years under Ben Johnson has really thrived. You start with running the football, kind of an old school mentality with the likes of David Montgomery and Jameer Gibbs, but then you utilize that play pass game with Jared Goff.

Starting point is 00:29:07 And it also helps Ben Johnson, certainly, that the Lions offensive line is a top three, maybe top one offensive line in the league. He utilizes the receivers in the slot. Mentioned before, Jamison Williams out on the perimeter. A guy like Tim Patrick, who was a cast off from the Broncos, comes to Detroit and is immediately thrusted in as the No. 3 receiver, and it works. He just knows it's a great feel for the game, a great feel for offense. He and Jared Goff have worked so well together

Starting point is 00:29:35 the last three years, and I'm still surprised that we sit here on January 8, 2025, and he's not a head coach yet. I know that's not the rules state. He's just going to virtually interview this week and he'll talk to the folks up in Foxborough this week. But I really thought after last year, he was, it would have been a lock to go, but he's going to be very selective with what he wants to do for his future. And if there's nothing out there, he likes, he could come back to Detroit. I don't think that he's an ego guy or I have to be a head coaching guy. He said he wants to be one and that's the next step, but I think

Starting point is 00:30:10 he's going to be very careful with what button he presses. Yeah. And I think it's so important for someone who is gaining the type of reputation that Ben is, and it's well-deserved of being an offensive genius and offensive guru to then go and to take your talents and be a head coach in this league. But I like what you said about him being selective about his new role. And I think that's something that may set him apart from his peers, maybe even someone like a Josh in years past. That doesn't necessarily bode too well for New England. I do have to be very honest because you're looking at an attractive situation with Drake May. There's no question about it. I know Ben would probably love to work with a young quarterback with his type of

Starting point is 00:30:49 upside but you're looking at an offensive line that was porous and i'm being generous when i say that uh they were not good this year matt um weapons around drake right now that leave a lot to be desired and a running game that's centered now around an Gibson and Ramondre Stevenson, who a lot of people feel regressed in a year where he was supposed to showcase his talents in a system, an outside zone system that really was supposed to play to his strengths. So in that regard, when you look at Ben Johnson's ability to be a head coach and to make his players around him better, to be able to take talent, good players and make them play great or even mediocre players and make them play well. What about his style would lead him to look at New England and say, this is a good opportunity for me,

Starting point is 00:31:36 maybe not year one and year two, but eventually I can see us having success together and really bring the Patriots back to a level of respectability. Let's talk a little bit about Detroit and the situation that the Lions are in right now. They have an owner that stays out of the way. Sheila Ford Hamp has been tremendous. Started off by hiring Chris Spielman as kind of an assistant to both her and the president, Rod Wood. Then they get the general manager in Brad Holmes. They get the head coach in Dan Campbell. And there is a system in place where everybody stays in their lane, does their thing, and it seeps down to the coordinator,

Starting point is 00:32:13 certainly with Ben Johnson, and the defensive coordinator, Aaron Glenn. Both are allowed to just do their jobs. They report to Dan Campbell. They've got great relationships with the head coach. And they know there's not going to be a time when an owner comes into an offensive, comes into the quarterback room or comes into an offensive unit room and is saying, hey, we need to run the ball. Ben Johnson is left alone to do his job. And so the next step for him and the next place for him is going to be somewhere where he's left alone he if he's going to be the head coach the last thing he wants is an owner medal uh whispering in his ear or a team president or a general manager no he

Starting point is 00:32:51 doesn't want that so i think he's he he looked up last year and look the panthers were very interested in him but i think he looked up and said i'm not working for david tepper and ben johnson has carolina ties i think he said i'm not doing that and so you know new england seems to fit because mr craft for many many years allowed obviously bill to do his thing and stayed out of the way and there was success there you mentioned drake may i think that would be a nice calling card for Ben Johnson in terms of positivity and him going to New England because I think he would want to work with a good young quarterback who you've got team control over for the next handful of years

Starting point is 00:33:32 and you can model and develop things around him. The GM situation up in New England, you know better than me with the Elliot Wolfe thing and what goes on there. But I can tell you if I had to guess and go, all right, Ben Johnson has to choose between, let's say, New England and Chicago. All right. And maybe people think Caleb Williams is better. I don't think Ben Johnson wants to deal with the circus in Chicago of who's my boss. Is it Kevin Warren? Is it Ryan Poles? The McCaskies have no history of winning. The Bears, the Bears are rebuilding since 86,

Starting point is 00:34:05 basically throw in the one Superbowl, the Rex Grossman. So I would say new England based off of that. But obviously what has happened over the last year and a half in new England hasn't looked very good to Ben either. But I think working with a guy like Drake may and being allowed to do his thing, I think would be intriguing.

Starting point is 00:34:24 The question is, are the reports and the rumors about Ben saying, yeah, I'll come to New England, but I want to bring some of my personnel buddies with me, whether it would be one of the Lions assistant GMs or somebody in Washington right now, like a Lance Newmark who is friends with Ben from their days in Detroit. Would he want that? I don't have the answer to that, but I do think the Patriots are in the game here. Yeah, that's good insight. And I'm glad that you mentioned that because some of the insight that we got from Mr. Kraft, and we spoke to him on Monday morning after, uh, Gerard Mayo had been relieved of his duties was a contrition, uh, to essentially take the responsibility on his shoulders. Gerrard was the guy that he chose.

Starting point is 00:35:06 He knew that there was a lack of experience there, and I think he's looking to find that type of experience this time around, not necessarily that he can't be a first-time head coach and come in here. Ben has certainly proven himself with the stops that he's made and the job that he's done in Detroit, but surrounding Ben with experienced people, people he's comfortable with. Elliot Wolfe right now is remaining in place, but from those that I talk to close to the organization, that's a fluid concept, meaning that if Ben is serious about wanting to work

Starting point is 00:35:35 with people he's very comfortable with, I think New England would be very amenable to that. So that does speak well. It's good that we've kind of redeemed New England as a potential destination because right now the roster is in rough shape, but it can get better. And that leads me quite nicely into my final question for you, Matt. And everyone I've talked to that has either had dealings with Ben, close to him, know his roster, know his ability. There really aren't many downfalls. I haven't found anyone to say a bad word about him. I don't want to put you on the hot seat and have you do that because there may not be one, but is there anything about Ben's either lack of experience as a head coach or about his style that gives you pause that he may be ready for the big seat in New England,

Starting point is 00:36:17 knowing the pedigree that comes with being a Patriots head coach and only one degree removed from a legend like Bill Belichick? Well, I mean, I think the biggest thing that is the question that is asked a lot, even here in Detroit is, uh, you know, look, you knew Dan Campbell was a quote unquote leader of men. The minute he hit the podium for the first time and said, we're going to bite kneecaps off and we're going to do all these things. You looked up and you said, wow, whether you thought it was buffoonery or whether you thought it was, it was, uh, you know, uh, from the heart and, and, and genuine Dan Campbell stood up there and said, this is how we're going to play. And he's loud and he's big

Starting point is 00:36:55 and he's boisterous. Ben Johnson is a smallish skinny, quiet guy. I mean, he, he can laugh and he's been good on the podium when he, when he does his Thursday coordinator sessions. He's got good personality. The question is, is he a leader of men? That still remains to be seen. Aaron Glenn, who the Lions defensive coordinator, will get looks. You watch him on the sidelines. You see him high-fiving players, jumping on guys, shoving guys. You hear more about leader of men from Aaron Glenn than you do Ben Johnson. Ben Johnson's kind of this mad scientist, guru-call-and-plays

Starting point is 00:37:31 that I guess you could question whether he can lead men or not in this league. But there's been so many bad coaches out there. For example, and I don't know anything about anthony weaver i don't even barely know i remember when he played for the ravens but like people say oh anthony weaver is leader okay but did the dolphins defense ever wow you where you went oh yeah the dolphins even so good who's their d coordinator with the lions that offense wows you it is so creative it's so explosive that Ben Johnson has that. Everybody's talking about him.

Starting point is 00:38:06 So he deserves a shot. And that's kind of the talk around him right now. Absolutely. Matt, what can we say? Thank you so much for the insight. I know a lot of people are excited about Ben up here, and I'm one of them. I really would love to see what he could do with a talent like Drake May. I think he could resurrect this offense and with a couple of pieces and a lot of cap space

Starting point is 00:38:28 that the Patriots have available and valuable draft capital. Maybe they can help replenish some of the cupboards that are bare right now in New England and give a young coach an opportunity to build something special here that we haven't seen since Tom Brady walked out the door. Once again, Matt, a tip of the cap to you, my friend. Best of luck to the Lions in the playoffs. You got a lot of fans up here in New England that are cheering you on, so hopefully they can pull it out.

Starting point is 00:38:50 But thank you once again for joining us here today on Locked on Patriots. All right, Michael. Great to see you, buddy. Great to see you as well.

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