Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #1023: Frames & Icons with Daniel Holt

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

In this podcast, I sit down with Senior Game Designer and Graphic Designer Daniel Holt to talk about how the frames and icons for March of the Machine were designed.

I'm not pulling my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for other Drive to Work at Home Edition. So I've been getting a lot of people online asking all about frames and the making of frames. So I decided to go to the source. So I have Daniel Holt with us today. He's a senior game designer in R&D, and he is in charge of making frames. So who better to talk about frames? So hey, Daniel. Hey, Mark. Excited to be here. So Daniel has a lot of hats on.

He does a lot of game design in addition to doing all the framework. But he is in charge of the frames. So we thought what we'd do is we would look at March of the Machines as our lens today to talk about the making of frames. So really today's topic is we know we want a frame. How the hell, how does that happen? How in the world do we get a frame? So, why don't we start talking about probably the most dramatic frame

in all of March of the Machines. Let's talk about how battles came to be. From a frame standpoint, let's just dive in. How do battles come to be? Jumping right in with the big one yeah let's start with kickoff meeting that's always the most fun okay so what is what is a kickoff meeting yeah so mechanical frame kickoff meeting well i'm gonna step back again mechanical frames that is anything that has gameplay relevance so you know booster phone or the the really pretty aesthetics uh

that's a different uh side of the designical frames have to do something with gameplay. They help cue in players to what to do with the cards and how to play them. So the kickoff meeting for that is where I sit down with the game design leads and other stakeholders, and I'm like, hey, tell me all the mechanics in your set, even if they're returning. And we evaluate those. So obviously Battles was a big one that came up here. And I take away what Dave Humphries said that he was planning at the time. and we evaluate those. So obviously battles was a big one that came up here. And,

uh, I take away what, you know, Dave Humphries, uh, said that he was planning at the time. And it was a little unclear how we were going to approach battles. So I gave all these different layouts and, uh,

ultimately we had to test them because we're like, do we want them? Is this a single sided solution? Is this a, you know, double sided? What size are these cards? Some of these have a lot of text on them.

How do we do this? Ultimately, what we landed on, we did test a few with external sources, but what we ultimately landed on was a horizontal card so that it looks very different from other things while it's on the battlefield. And then when it transforms into your,

uh, your own piece, whenever you attack it, uh, it's more of a normal card in that, in that case. Right. So horizontal,

this means it's on its side. It's land sort of landscape, right? Right. Yeah. Um, and you know, it's not every day you get to make a new frame.

I should probably start with that. Like battle is a brand new card type. It's got everyone, well, we're recording now before Mom releases, but, like, everyone doesn't know what it does. They're all just guessing at what it could possibly be. So designing that new frame was pretty exciting. Yeah, I mean, we don't, look, we don't make new frames. I mean, the last time we made a new frame was Planeswalkers, you know,

so we, I mean, a brand new card type. We don't make new card types all the time. So, a new card type has a couple things that are helpful. The biggest is we are allowed to bake some amount of rules into the card type. So, for example, planeswalkers on them don't explain exactly how

planeswalkers work. Because battles were a brand new card type, we wanted to explain as much as we could but it it we are allowed to hide a little bit into sort of the the how the car type works yeah and there's still some visual cues i put in the frame you know uh starting with the top you know it's it's a dfc so it has that new uh try evergreen triangle upwards on the front backwards on the back uh it's got the reminder a little notch in the bottom right corner that tells you what's that new evergreen triangle upwards on the front, backwards on the back. It's got the reminder little notch in the bottom right corner

that tells you what power toughness is on the back. And then it's got the new, I'll say loyalty symbol. I think it's contested. Where it kind of resembles the loyalty of a planeswalker, the symbol for that. So people know that they can attack that symbol, kind of like a planeswalker works.

Yeah, one of the things I know in design that they settled on was the more it worked like a planeswalker for how you attacked it, the easier it was for people to understand it, because they could latch on to something that already exists. So when that happens, when we do something which, hey, we want you to kind of think of it like a planeswalker,

in the frame design, are you trying to mirror some planeswalkerness to make people say these act the same? Yeah, it's what I try to do when I start making new mechanical frames is I try to change the smallest thing for the most effect. We have a lot of frames. There's a lot of proliferation every time we make new mechanics. If I can keep making small changes that make the thing function, that's where I like to live. You know, whereas Booster Fun likes to go all out with all the bells and whistles. Okay, so, and you brought up something important here. So let's, a lot of framework is building upon previous work, right?

So when we talk about battles, we can't ignore double-faced cards. So let's talk a little bit about, like, what are the challenges of making the frames for double-faced cards. So let's talk a little bit about, like, what are the challenges of making the frames for double-faced cards? Right. I don't know how to do this. Well, I mean, for example, one of the things is there's two sides of information, and one of the big questions is,

how much information is the front side supposed to have to let you understand what the back side is? Or, like, you talked about the symbols earlier. Like, there's a symbol on Double Face Card. You know, there's a lot of iconography and, like, you know, visual information that's coming on a DFC. Right, and with DFCs, you know,

we kind of solidified how they look, starting with Bro, you know, where, like I said, they introduced the new evergreen triangles, especially for Meld. Meld was new with that set, first time since Eldritch Moon. So we've kind of found our pace with DFCs. But here we did have to decide if we were going from horizontal to vertical and how that would look. And then obviously every time we do a new mechanical frame, like DFCs especially,

Booster Fund then has to figure out where to place all of those icons. I know there's some DFCs showing up in our plethora of Booster Funds showing up with Mom, where you're like, oh, there's a really cool stylized triangle up there. So that's something that team always has to consider when we do DFCs and stuff as well. So how do you figure out whether the front was supposed to be horizontal or vertical? How did that decision get made? figure out whether the front was supposed to be horizontal or vertical? How did that decision get made? Again, it was

to show that this is clearly a different type of permanent. This is a brand new frame that's ultimately a borderless, full art frame. But we wanted to make sure that whatever this new card type was, mostly that it didn't tap. It's very

unoften that this battle will tap uh just like enchantments um so it was a little bit safer to be horizontal but it also let us do these wide battle shots i mean they're called battles so that's that's more of a landscape scene in general so a lot of the art we were testing early on i'm like this looks really cool in a landscape form so another real quick thing for the audience is um so landscape is when it's horizontal sideways so social uh media like movies and have a certain aspect ratio to them right so movies are three to five i believe um and tv is three to four though it's slowly become three to five because tvs have just started to match what movies look like. And a sideways card closer

matches the ratio of like a movie screen. So when people think of sort of cinematography, the sideways matches much more what sort of cinematography looks like. Right. And we were seeing that in our early testing, early looks, you know, with stakeholders and they're like, oh, this looks sweet. And you know, even

the art director, I believe it was Taylor Ingerson for this set was like oh that's sweet i can work with that okay so the other challenging thing about battles is the back side of battles there's no consistent i mean it's always a card but it could be literally any card type it can even be an instant or sorcery so how how did, like, what did you do? Like, the front is brand new. It looks very different. But the back is closer to a normal magic card. So were there any, are there any differences on the back?

Like, does the back of a battle look different from a normal card in any way? Not really. They're pretty traditional DFC backs. You know, they got the dark color palette with the white text to show, to further remind you that this is the backside. But I know a lot of rules were coming up with some of the incident sorceries, like you mentioned, because they had to make the keyword work to where you could cast the backside if it was not a permanent. Because most DFCs, you know, exile and then return transformed, etc.

So any other challenges on battles before we move on? Like, any other things that you had to think about that maybe the M-person didn't even consider, but, like, you had to figure this out? Not really challenges. I would say, like, the final thing I will say here was just getting the ratio correct. Like, how tall does the text box need to be to maximize how much art is shown

with allowing enough room for the rules and, you know, getting the security stamp on the side and, you know, just all the placement, the full layout, and then just everybody getting signed off on the horizontal because that was a big, big discussion from some folks. Oh, yeah. You bring up something really interesting that, having done set design, and it finally came up to burn me, and I realized that is, there are art, all the art fits in a certain size, and then different frames need different art in different ratios. And that one of the things that's really important is understanding what ratio, like, the art director has to know what they're commissioning.

And so, like, sagas are a new thing that completely, you know, they're these long, tall things, you know, and I know one of the challenges of, like, doing battles is introducing a brand new ratio, so, like, I don't know, how many different art ratios do we have? Quite a few, and that's always my deadline, for sure.

It's like, I get to work on these for quite a while, especially if we kick off the meeting pretty early on in the life cycle, but I know my deadline is okay art directors are like breathing down my neck for i need the commissioning ratio so i can send this to the artists so they can start drawing on this so that's when i know i'm like okay i gotta wrap this up and figure it out okay so let's uh there's more double-faced cards than just the battles so let's walk through the other double face cards so uh first up is the Phyrexians. On the front side, it's a normal

creature, usually iconic to a certain world, and then it transforms into a Phyrexian. Is there anything different? I mean, obviously we've done transforming double-faced cards before. Do these function in any way different? Anything you had to do to them? Nothing too specific for these. A lot of the rest of the DFCs are pretty easy

in the set or at least straightforward. Um, but it was more, you know, work for the print production team because these frames just don't exist yet. Like, you know, we haven't done backside, uh, sagas yet. So that all has to be made. And so our frame library just continues to grow and they have to keep managing that. Um, but ultimately they do look similar to normal. They have the dark and color palette. We left

all the icons of the lore chapters and the banner on the side the same. I just realized, I was talking about one thing and you answered it different. I was talking about the, I'm a normal creature, and then I turned into a Phyrexian version of that normal creature.

And then you were talking about the Praetors that turned into Sagas. They're a bunch of different DFCs. So the Praetor Saga is like, we had a Praetor frame, we have a normal creature frame, we have a Saga frame. So that's just... I don't know what... The thing people have to think about is, as you were explaining,

the backside of a double-faced card has certain qualities that are different about them. We've never done a Saga on the backside, so you have to, like, how is the Saga different, even though you have something to saga on the back side so you have to like how is the saga different even though you have a you have something to go off of because sagas have a look i mean i think that's that's a majority of my job right like it's every time we have a set it's like people can kind of understand how how it will look like like you just said like you're like okay it's a it's a creature on the back side and it's got this attribute i'm like we've done that before

i'm like but we haven't done that on the back side yet so we we do still have to make that frame we have to you know darken uh the the title and type bars we have to it just all has to be considered and make sure that the other teams know that that is coming down the line and that's kind of where i act as the liaison between game design and creative is i'm i'm in those check-in meetings and figuring those out yeah something for the audience to understand that's important is, so if we've made a frame, it exists. So like, oh, we've made a green creature frame or whatever. But every time we do something we haven't done, like Daniel has to make a brand new

frame. Like it might be very close to a frame you know, but it is subtly a different frame. And that part of what this meeting is, you're talking about the kickoff, is like, how many different frames do we need? And some of that is, okay, Battles is splashy, brand new card type. But a lot of it might just be, oh, like, for example, I know in Infinity, we made a colorless saga for the first time.

That's what got us into trouble. And so, like, yeah, that's the art ratio story, where I got the art ratio wrong. You know, that was just something, like, for example, when we make Saigas, the first time we made

multicolor Saigas, those are brand new frames. And each multicolor combination is slightly different because there's been, like, you know, like, for example, I know you won't know

this off the top of your head, but, like, roughly, just in the ballpark, like, how many different frames exist for magic currently? Like, just to give, the idea of scope. Oh, you should prep me for that question.

Yeah. Oh, man. I mean, but it's like hundreds, right? Okay, I would say a hundred, like, just red frames. Yeah. That's the other thing is, like, what I do is I make blueprints, and then I hand that off to the production team for them to make all the versions and all of them print-ready.

So when we're talking number of frames, like let's say the Saga frame. The Saga red creature frame is – or Saga red frame is just one frame. They have to make that for the whole Wooburg gold, all the two-color combinations. So now we're at, what is that? That's 21. Yeah. That's quick math. 16, I think.

But I'm like, that happens for every frame. So like, it's a lot. You know, I hand off one version of the frame for battles. For example, I mocked up a red frame for a lot of the early meetings and stakeholders. And then I handed that off to them. And now when we see the main set set we see all the variations of it yeah and one of the things about the meetings that the design has meetings with you it's like okay what are you doing that we haven't done before and what that might mean is it might be a mechanic we've done before but we haven't done in this color before you know oh we're we're doing know, something brand new. Like, for example, you just, you accidentally said this,

but it's a good example, is in Neon Dynasty, we made soggers that turned into creatures on the back. Yep. You know, well, that's, okay, that's slightly different. We haven't made that before. You know, every time, even if we're just tweaking something, that can just make a brand new frame that doesn't exist. And so a lot of meeting with

you is like running through literally everything we're doing so you can figure out oh yeah this is a new frame this is a new frame you know yeah and i mean it's just battles are similar to what you just said on neon dynasty where everyone's like oh it's a saga on the front we have that frame i'm like yeah but we had to add a dfc. We had to figure out where the notch goes. The notch was, like, not on the right side like normal. We put it on the left. So there was a lot of little minor things that I tried to change, as I mentioned before. Okay, so let's continue on our double-faced card. So let's talk about the incubate token.

So we made, for the first time ever, a double-faced token. We had never made a double-faced token before. I mean, one that transforms. Both sides are the same thing. I guess we've made double-faced token. We had never made a double-faced token before. I mean, one that transforms. Both sides are the same thing. I guess we've made double-faced tokens that are completely different cards. But as far as having a relationship with each other, talk about the making of the incubate token. Yeah, this one was also straightforward in concept. But then when I sat down to do it, I'm like, oh, yeah, we already kind of like darken these the color palette to to look good on these four tokens.

So the front side and we haven't done like colorless of this either. So the front side had to say like more of the neutral palette like we normally say, not on tokens, though. We had to mimic, you know, main set magic front sides and then the back side went dark. So you can still tell the difference. And neither one has a casting cost, because it's a token. So we still put the symbols up on the top right and left, but there's no casting cost up there.

And then centered the text. Like, all these little things we had to consider, because we just haven't done tokens like this before. Yeah, and like you were saying earlier, that when you're making something brand new, it's trying to figure out what's the cleanest, easiest way that the audience will be able to read it and understand it. You know, and it's funny because when you see new frames, I think the audience, when they seem close to something that exists, it seems very obvious. But a lot of those choices aren't necessarily obvious.

Right. And that's I mean, that's the best place to land. Right. If the audience sees them like, oh, that's obvious, and moves on with it. I'm like, okay, I did my job. I did what was expected. Okay, so I'm thinking, what else? So we talked about the DFCs. What other challenges, like what other frames did you have to make

for March of the Machines? Actually, with the Commander decks, we can talk about that a little. Oh, sure, sure. The return of plane chase. So we have all the planes returning. This isn't a huge change. was more of a more of a cleanup choice but um there was a lot of filigree art uh frame around the sides of the of the old uh plane cards we just decided to clean that up and make them a little more simpler while keeping the same aesthetic of the of the main boxes that way you

just get to see more art. In general, we think that was kind of cluttering the sides and hiding some of the art on the left and right. So does, when we make something like planes, like planes, for example, are a different size card. How much does that matter? Or is the ratio very similar? The ratio is very similar.

Don't quote me on this but i i think the the aspect ratio is essentially uh two cards two normal besides magic cards uh make up the larger card and these frames while they were old we did have the the files uh and we were able to pull from that and let the print production team really work with that. So whenever we get an old frame, so I guess another interesting part of your job is whenever we do a frame that we haven't done for a while, meaning it was kind of made in olden times, one of your jobs is to say, okay, is this frame ready for,

like, are there things that we've learned along the way that we want to apply to this frame yeah um i've been at wizard since january 2018 which feels like a while ago but it's only been five years um so anything any frame prior to that i do have to dig up and you know um i'm speaking of mom and frames you know we went back a while for the uh the booster fun frames you know we've revisited all the booster fun from all the different planes uh some of those are before my time like the x1 frames and the kaladesh uh and then all of the booster fun team uh has joined since those sets so it was really fun digging up and seeing what we could work with those files and

how they worked and then obviously we introduced a bunch of new BoosterFun for planes like Tarkir. Do you have any interaction with BoosterFun? Yeah, so what I do with BoosterFun is I do UX design as well for Studio X. Explain what UX is. Sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. UX is user experience.

So just how players interact with the game, which again ties back to the mechanical frames. So what I do with user experience for the Booster Fund is I just help out a lot with testing. So we have a fantastic illustrator that actually joined the Booster Fund team during March the Machines, which cannot imagine this being your first set

drawing all the booster fun um what a what a ride that was uh so you know he does all the all the assets works with the art directors i chime in from i'm like hey we got to make sure color identity is represented here so i kind of i kind of do checks and balances there to make sure frames even when booster fun are representing the gameplay things they need to but then when it goes to testing i try to unify all of that so you know when we test we want all the cards to have the same level playing field you know i put lorem ipsum style text on the text box just so players when they're you know testing these they're like they're not trying to read the card and judge it

on a game design perspective they're truly looking at just the frame so you you mentioned something once again that printing people will know but explain explain what Loram Ipsum is. Loram Ipsum? Yeah. Yeah, Loram Ipsum is just filler text. I don't actually use Loram Ipsum on the test cards, but the title will be Test Card Name, Creature-Subtype. First ability, second ability, this is reminder text explaining what this ability does.

That's what I put basically on all my test cards, just so that players aren't reading them. Because back when I first started, I didn't do that. And I just kind of made up some stuff in there. And I would get feedback like, this card is just too strong, or this card looks pretty weak. And I'm like, I don't want you to be reading that stuff. Yeah, it's important when we do testing that we want people to focus on the thing we want them to focus on. And what we've learned is Magic players really want to care about cards. And so if you give them information, they get very hyper-focused on that.

Okay, so there's something else you do beyond frames I want to talk about, which is symbols. So not only are you making the frames themselves, but let's talk about that. I don't even know if Martian Machine has new symbols, but I know you've worked on plenty of sets that have new symbols. What is the act of making symbols? Yeah, we can talk about one of the big symbols, which is set symbols. Okay. I do those. Marching Machine has a few of those.

I'm actually really excited about the main set set symbol because, as you know it's elspeth's uh sword stabbing uh diagonally a lot of people realized early on that this was elspeth's sword i obviously couldn't confirm it then but now that it's been revealed i was uh there's a moment in the story where elspeth stabs elish norn with that sword so that's the moment i was capturing with that set symbol and if you rotate the set symbol just slightly to where it's vertical, it is actually a Phyrexian symbol being destroyed by the sword.

Yeah, that's cool. So a lot of players didn't catch that early on. Is it challenging coming up with new set symbols all the time? A lot of the world building really, you know, gives us ideas to go off of. By the time I start on set symbols, we already have the world guide. So I'm able to look through there and really get a feel for that.

We'll talk about the world guide in a second. So I have a lot of inspiration from the world building where I can pull different things. And, you know, every setting is so different. And the real key with set symbols is just make sure they're distinguishable from each other and you kind of get a reference when you see it like what what do you mix an awesome set symbol like what is the the thing where you go oh i've nailed this set symbol i think simplicity plus flavor um if you can describe a set symbol in one word, it's great. But one just phrase, like,

sword's breaking symbol for March of the Machines. You know, the commander set symbol is Elish Norn's head. I just, I really like those. Some of the ones I liked in the past, you know, like Amonkhet, it's a pyramid. Like, such simple and straightforward symbols are my favorite. Okay, so let's talk about that. That's the set symbol. Let's talk about symbols within a set. So, for example, I mean, the one I remember is because you,

the only thing I've done set design on was Infinity, but we had to make a ticket. We had to get an icon for a ticket, for example. And I know you did all the infinity um frames and symbols yeah um i don't think march of the machine has many or if i'm if it does i'm forgetting them uh but yeah like infinity has has the ticket so that'll show up you know like energy is the same way from kaladesh uh basically anytime that we need an icon over you know just the word for it that's where i'll come in and do that.

Watermarks in a similar way. Every Fortel card has the raven with wings spread from Kaldheim. Do you do watermarks? Yeah. We don't do watermarks as much anymore. I think because

we kind of lose those in booster fun, and I'm not sure they were conveying as much as we would like them to. But ultimately, I'm like, yeah, we can use watermarks here or not. Usually they're saved for factions, you know, like the Strixhaven schools, the Ravnica guilds. So do

symbols that go in text, do those have any different needs from symbols that go elsewhere elsewhere like the expansion symbol they have to be even more simple than the set symbol like um i mean just based on size alone on the card because everyone sees the sees my icons and stuff very large when i'm approving and talking to stakeholders but you have to remember they go very small when they're printed on the card the set symbol has you know a lot more room than the text box does as terms of like line height for the text uh so icons do have to be very very clear you

know the energy symbol is that pentagon with the lightning bolt and then like the ticket is just a sideways almost like a sideways rectangle uh just very clear, like I need to go read this. I mean, they're like our mana symbols. Like you just have to instantly know what they mean. Yeah, one of the challenges I know, this was before your time, so you have nothing to do with it, but I'll bring an example where we ran into trouble.

In, what was it? In Shadow Morrow, we decided to do the untapped symbol. And so the way we did it is we literally just inverted a tap symbol. Like what was white was it, in Shattamore, we decided to do the untapped symbol. And so the way we did it is we literally just inverted a tap symbol. Like, what was white was black, what was black was white. And then we mirrored it or whatever, you know. And the problem was people read it as a tap symbol because it is so close to a tap symbol that, like, people didn't, most people don't go, oh, this part's black and this part's white. Or, you know, it just, It read to people as a tap symbol.

Like we were too close to the tap symbol. I love seeing people see the untapped symbol for the first time. Even me, it trips up a little. But other people are like, wait, what is this? Yeah. When they see it now. And it's a good example where symbols have to carry some basic information. And if you just are slightly off, it confuses people.

Right. A similar thing we ran into was, I know with energy, like if we had too much energy, you just couldn't tell how much energy there was. There's one guy that's like paid eight energy, right? Yeah, yes. The whole line is just the icons.

I think we've moved to a system where we do number and then symbol rather than do, I think if the symbol appears three times or less now, right, we use the symbol, and if it's more than three, then we put number symbol, because it was hard to read beyond three. Yeah, I think we even did that with Kaladesh now that I'm thinking about it. One thing I really like about, go back to testing with new icons and things like that,

is you want it to be instantly recognizable, and whenever you get to ask new players in testing they're seeing it for the first time you really get honest reactions and good feedback there and that's one of the other benefits of testing is like you know we stare at all these mock-ups forever you know game designers are pretty intuitive they can like use context but getting getting folks to look at it is the most valuable. Yeah, no, it's... The amount of... I don't think... The other thing to point out is, let's say you make something.

Let's say you decide to make a new symbol or whatever. How many stages does it go through? How many versions of a frame or a symbol do you think exist? A lot, especially if the option isn't clear. Both battles and the Neo, how we were handling saga creatures or sagas into creatures in Neo had probably like 10 versions at the early testing.

And then when it comes to icons, they have even more because I'll just sit and I'll sketch all these different icons and I pitch them to stakeholders. I think I pitched 30 set symbols for Neo, but I'm a little biased for that set. And even March of the Machine probably had 20.

And then I'm just talking about like, okay, you pick a symbol. They've agreed this is the general symbol or general frame. How many iterate, like how much do you tend to iterate beyond that? Once you even agree that this is the thing we're going to do, how many iterations do you tend to have? Typically, once we figure out a direction for mechanical frames or even icons,

it's pretty straightforward after that where I'll make it as clean as I can and ready for the production team. So not many iterations that once we decide on a direction okay I'm like okay I would say the picking is the hard part once you pick it and then it's just extrapolating getting everyone to agree on a direction is the hardest part for sure uh but booster fun then has multiple rounds where you're like yes we like this direction but you know it's all aesthetic. So Dalton, our illustrator, he'll keep iterating and getting things perfect and figuring out where all the colors should go, etc. So anyway, I can see my desk from here, so we're almost done.

So I just want to give you any final thoughts on the frames and symbols of March of the Machine, any big picture review of all the work you did? I think we covered a lot of the new stuff. I will say for March of the Machines, this set is so exciting to see finally happening. You know, all the planes coming together. I just, I think fans are really going to be excited by both the booster fun and just the return of their favorite plane.

You know, we went back to Kamigawaawa now we get to see it again already like all the planes are just coming together and this this is an amazing moment yeah actually and we we see a lot of planes uh yeah like there's a number of planes and i'm like okay where's that plane from which which plane is that you know so that's that's kind of fun, if you are a Vorthos that really, really get into sort of, like, all the things we've ever referenced, you know, a lot of them are showing up. And some pretty obscure ones, too. But, anyway, I want to thank you for being here today, Daniel.

It's fun talking frames. So, I promised them I would talk frames, so I'm glad to have you on. But, I'm at my desk, so we all know what that means. This is the end of my drive to work so instead of talking magic it's time for me to be making magic so thanks for being with us Daniel thanks Mark

and I'll see all you guys next time bye bye