Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #1194: Brainstorming

Episode Date: November 29, 2024

In this podcast, I talk about how to use brainstorming to come up with ideas.

I'm pulling out of my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for the drive to work. Okay, today's topic came from a suggestion on my blog. Today I'm going to talk about brainstorming. So I'm responsible for the early part of design, exploratory design, vision design, and our job is to take a blank piece of paper and make it not blank. We have to create something from nothing. And one of the tools we do that, we use to

do that is brainstorming. So I'm going to spend some time today talking about what exactly brainstorming is, how do we do it, and just some tips and tricks for those of you out there that want to brainstorm better. That's today's topic. Okay, so the idea of a brainstorm is I have a bunch of people in a room, talented people that have good ideas, and I have a problem to solve, and I want... It's sort of one of the initial parts of solving a problem that early on, especially in exploratory design, one of the things you need to do when you're trying to solve a problem. That early on, especially in exploratory design, one of the things you need to do when you're trying to solve a problem

is kind of map the problem. So what you wanna do, so the first thing for brainstorming is, brainstorming works best when you're trying to solve a specific problem. Now that problem can be, doesn't have to be pinpoint. For example, an often thing we do in exploratory design, especially when we're doing top down,

is we do a brainstorm and we're like, okay, what kind of things would people want to see? Now we're focused, we're like, oh, this is Indistrad, we're doing Gothic Horror, this is Theros, we're doing Greek mythology. I mean, we're focusing on what we're talking about. And that's the first sort of lesson for brainstorming is that brainstorming is an effective tool, but you don't want too open-ended.

You want like, you have to go, we're trying to solve the following problem. The problem doesn't have to be, once again, it can be a larger, looser problem, but you want to point people in a direction, right? We're trying to solve something. I want everybody sort of searching in. I want to, you want to know what the goal is. What am I trying to brainstorm for? Now that said, one of the big things about brainstorming is, one of the biggest sort

of handicaps to brainstorming is that, and I've talked about this before, one of the ways that people think, and this is just how humans think. So the way the brain works is whenever I face a new problem, the brain says, hey, have I faced this problem before? And if it has, it goes, okay, and it sends you down the neural pathways of how you solved that problem last time you were there. And the idea, I mean, it's pretty smart for the brain. The brain basically says, I need to solve a problem.

Have I solved the problem? Oh, I have. Okay. I will use the information from the previous problem solve to solve this factor. And the idea being that, hey, like the more you do something, the quicker you get at it because your brain starts short-cutting things and, oh, I know what I'm doing here. And in general, that is very valuable. Your brain short-cutting things and remembering what you've done before, that is a super,

super useful part of your brain. And for most things where you want to get better at doing the same thing, very valuable. The challenge with creative thinking is it sort of, it fights against the way creativity works. Because it's like oh I want to think of something, so it sends you down the neural pathways that The problem with creative thinking is it sort of fights against the way creativity works because it's like, oh, I want to think of something. So it sends you down the neural pathways that you sent before. And what happens is if you sort of keep thinking about the exact same thing, it will, you'll just get the same answers as normally the problem.

So part of brainstorming, and this is why brainstorming is so effective, is you want to use it as a way to sort of push in directions you wouldn't. And there's a couple ways to do that. One is you want a lot of people in your brainstorm. I mean not unreasonable about, but having multiple people in your brainstorm is very important. The reason is each person's neural pathways are tied to that person, right? So if I give you a problem and each one of us

thinks about our problem in the way that's most natural to how we would think about it, we are repeating ourselves, but we are saying things other people wouldn't say, right? And the key to breaking the neural pathway thing is just having different approach to the problem slightly differently. Meaning, if I say to you, think of something to do with an elephant, your brain will go

down a certain path. But if somebody else, like maybe you're thinking about, oh, I'm going to ride my elephant. But someone else is like, oh, I'm going to put the elephant, I'm going to show off the elephant. Each of you are going down a slightly different path. And then when you share that, it sort of spurs the other person and going, oh, I didn't think about riding the elephant.

And so a lot of what brainstorming is, is trying to get a lot of different ideas out there because the group mind think is going to be different than the individual mind think. And in general, one of the reasons that we keep changing teams, the reason we don't have the exact same design team every time is you want a different mix of people because that different mix of people just gets a different group mind think. And so if it's always the same four group of people, the group could fall into the same problem I'm talking about with the individual. And that's why in a brainstorm it's good.

Like one of the things that's great in a brainstorm is make sure you're always bringing in fresh voices, people that haven't been in the brainstorm before. That there's nothing wrong with brainstorming with people that you've brainstormed with before, but you always want to mix in new voices because the idea is you want to hear new and different ideas. Okay, so normally what I like to do when brainstorming, and I'm going to talk about sort of the old school, you can do the same thing typing on a screen. In the old school we would use a whiteboard, not a billboard, a whiteboard. But when we

do now that we have a lot of meetings where you know some number of the audience is at home we will do the same thing but we'll type it on the screen. Works the same. So what you want to do is you want to get a prompt. So you want to, so let's say for example we're making Indus Rod and we're making, okay, we want to do Gothic horror. So the question I will ask, so once again with brainstorming, you want to ask a question. More so than just here's a topic randomly associate with it. It's more like, okay, I'm going to ask a question. So for example, for Indus Rod, I might be asking, we are doing top down gothic horror.

What would you expect to see if I said we were doing gothic horror? And so the idea is I want to ask a question, I want it to be a point of question. And then, so the idea is the first stage of brainstorming is you want to spill out a lot of ideas. What I call the fire hose portion of brainstorming. You really just want to fill your board up or screen or whatever. You just want to, whatever you're tracking your notes on,

you want to fill it up. And so there's a little trues about brainstorming that there are no bad ideas. Not 100% true, there are bad ideas, but kind of what the real answer is, is in the early part of brainstorming, it's not time to judge the ideas yet. Not that the ideas aren't good or bad.

I think there are good ideas and bad ideas. But the sentiment, which is important, is, look, spit all the ideas out. And there's an important reason for that. One is that there are ideas that aren't good ideas that will lead to good ideas. In brainstorming, they call those stepping stones. The idea is maybe I picked something that's just totally impractical, but my totally impractical idea inspired somebody else to give a more practical suggestion, and they wouldn't have got there had I not given my suggestion.

So early on in the Firehose version of it, portion of it, the goal is not to critique anything just yet. There comes a point you do want to critique and the idea that you never critiqued brainstorming is wrong. You do want to do that, but you don't want in the initial in the initial fire hose idea, mostly what you want to do is just fill up, just get lots of ideas. And the reason it's okay to have bad ideas on some level is you just have to work through things. The thing that's most important in the early part of brainstorming is just generate a lot of ideas. And like I said, part of that is the first five to 10 ideas you're going

to come up with are probably the same five to 10 ideas you're gonna come up with are probably the same five to 10 ideas you would come up with last time I asked you to come up with. If I gave you the same prompt, you'll give me the same answers. But as you sort of work through things, oh, the other thing when you're brainstorming is you want everybody yelling out ideas altogether.

I really think it's important to, the idea that you have a room and people yelling things out the reason it's so important versus just okay on your own go write down the list is that One of the key elements of brainstorm now We'll come back to this again and again is that you are trying to intermix people that one of the most powerful things of brainstorming is that you are Each the different people in the brainstorming is that you are each, the different people

in the brainstorm are helping the others, prompting the others. So the reason you want everybody yelling things out is, let's say I'm saying name things for gothic horror and I name something and somebody else goes, oh, like I hadn't thought of that area but now that you're talking about that area, how about the following? So there's a lot of what tends to happen in brainstorming is you get certain areas and then somebody sort of hits a different area and then the group sort of covers that area is what kind of happens in brainstorms. Like you sort of spit out all the initial stuff and then as you're digging a little

bit deeper, people will find pockets that other people just didn't think about. Oh, you know, for example, we're doing, we're doing Innistrad. You know, maybe we start by doing all the universal movies, you know, all the monsters from the universal movies. But then someone else gets into fairy tales or someone else gets into Japanese horror, or you find different things and, you know,

not everything you say, like, the other important thing here is, just because it's written down doesn't mean it's something you should be doing. But the idea of just spouting out different ideas will just generate a huge list. The second part, once you've generated a huge list, usually what we like to do is what I call the sticker method. We'll have, old school we'll have a whiteboard, like nowadays might be on a screen. what I call the sticker method.

Old school will have a whiteboard, like nowadays might be on a screen. But what you say to each person is, you give each person some number of choices. Literally when we used to do it in a room altogether, you'd get stickers. And the idea is, okay, you can put a sticker on your top N ideas. Usually something like five, anywhere from five to ten.

The idea is you want people to have freedom to identify what connects to them and you want to give them enough that they go a little deeper, you know. The other thing that's a little dynamic that goes on, and I don't know the great answer for this is, the person that goes first is influential because they're sort of putting their stamp in the ground. So if you can get everybody to put up their stickers all together, or,

and this is one time when it's online that I don't mind not having anybody hear everybody, what I'll do online is okay guys Pick your five favorite and put them in the notes, but don't read the notes so you put yours yours in The reason that is good is is ideally if you can keep you from influencing when they're picking stuff Meaning I kind of want to see what people feel in not influenced by other people and then what you want to do is take all those things and then sort of put them into a list.

And ideally what you wanna do is, okay, here are, let's say we have five people doing it. Here are the ideas that five people identified something they thought they liked. Here's four, here's three, here's two, here's one. The fact that more people pick it does not mean inherently it's better, but it does mean it's more obvious and one of the things when you're brainstorming is

You are not looking for one thing There's not a such a thing as the best answer Especially in magic design most of we're trying to do are what are many avenues that we can explore to do are what are many avenues that we can explore. What I find with when a lot of people vote for something, what that says to me is this is pretty resonant. For example, we're doing Innistrad and everybody picks monsters as being important for gothic horror. Like, oh, okay. Or maybe some people pick vampires and some pick werewolves and some pick zombies. But like you can see it clustersters in that group that is very informative. The reason that you want to sort of have people pick their favorites is it's very telling.

The other thing I will say, by the way, I jumped to the voting part in the brainstorming part. If you are the person leading the brainstorm, it is fine to do a little prompting of your own people yelling things out and somebody says, oh, somebody said this, well this is this category. Can you think of more things in this category? Like it's okay if people don't naturally get prompted, you the person who's running the brainstorm

can prompt people. And that a lot of what I wanna do in the first part, in the fireworks part, is just try to get as many ideas out there. So if we're stalling out a little bit, I'll look at ideas that people said and say, oh, this is like this. Can you think of more things like this? So it's fine and brainstorming if you need to to prompt. I like prompting off other people's ideas. It could be prompting off your own ideas if you need to. But the idea really in the first part is to fill up the board with lots of ideas. The idea of the second part is to put some critical analysis on, okay, now that we've written everything out, what speaks to people?

Now once again, in magic design, we're usually not looking for one answer. I mean, there are people who are brainstorming who are trying to find a single answer. It's not magic design. If I'm making a set, there are 300, 200, 300 cards being on the set but there there are a lot of cards I got to make and so what I want is lots of options, lots of things we can do. The reason that I'm looking for the concentrated stuff is I'm more likely to look at that stuff for mechanics. For example, when we did Innistrad, oh look, a lot of people voted for vampires

and zombies and werewolves. It really communicated the idea that the monsters are important. And not just that they were monsters, but the type of monsters. You have to say, okay, what do vampires and werewolves and zombies have in common? And the answer was they all were previously human. They were humans that got turned into monsters. There are other kinds of monsters that are monsters that come from space and I mean there are other kind of monsters. The idea that you meet here and part of this I think is a lot of like the reason you look some of like Universal Studios monster pictures is oh a lot of the monsters had to be had to be played by

humans and so a lot of the things that became popular like in the early days special effects was harder they didn't have CGI you know and so what you could do was you could dress somebody up like a monster but if you dress them up like a monster they kind of look like a human. And so the monsters that naturally lend toward being human, because they were formerly human, is what people gravitated to. And so a lot of that, once again, one of the things about brainstorming is not just getting, but then trying to analyze what it is you got. And in that case, I'm like, okay, while monsters really seem to be, really resonate, okay, is there a way to make monsters matter?

And that is what led us to the idea of, oh, well, these exist, you know, vampires and zombies were existing creature types, and werewolf, I guess, existed. We just didn't have a lot of them. And so we're saying, okay, well, how do we represent those? Well, we have a tool in the game, which is creature types. OK.

And then once we start saying, well, we want to have those three. And then also we talked about on the board of having, like, how important was that humans? Because humans are both the victims of the monsters. And as I explained, the monsters came from humanity. So there's a dichotomy that is important. And then once we had four, one of the things in magic design is, hey, five works better than four because we tend to divide things by five.

And then we realized that we could do ally color combinations. We put vampires in black red. We put zombies in black blue. We put werewolves in red green. We put humans in green white. And we had white blue and we realized that, oh in red green, we put humans in green white and we had white blue and we realized that ghosts also fit. And ghosts are also a form of human, so it fit our theme.

Now it's interesting to note that in the early brains, I mean we mentioned ghosts, I'm sure ghosts were on there, didn't get a lot of votes. Really the concentration was in vampires, werewolves, and zombies. But when we came back and circled around, we did have that as a resource to look back on. Maybe Ghost wasn't the top choice, but hey, to fill out what we needed, it was the next best choice. And it was there and it got a vote or two.

It wasn't at the top. But it existed. And that's another thing about using your brainstorming is you are generating something that itself is a tool. And that, I should stress that. Bra something that itself is a tool. And that I should stress that. Brainstorming is a tool. The reason you use it is it is helping you fine tune your ideas. And a lot of it, like I said, a lot of it is, and the reason I find brainstorming so

useful is people have a lot of ideas, but you need some amount of organization. So the third part, first part firehose, spit out ideas, second part voting. Third part is sort of organization is understanding what it is you did. So the thing I like to do in the third part is I like to group things together. So I commonly, so one of the ways we do this in brainstorming sometimes is people will write ideas on post-it notes. It's a different way to brainstorm. We prop the idea and then everybody writes their idea on a post-it note and then puts

the post-it notes on the wall. Then you have people vote on what they like. Then the next step is organize those by category. So with Post-It Notes, you can just move the Post-It Notes around. If you write it, you have to, I mean, you then have to rewrite things, but the idea essentially is say, okay, wow, we had a lot of ideas. The ideas are going to clump together. The ideas are going to like, oh, for example, just using using in a shroud of my example today Oh look vampires and werewolves and zombies and spirits and creature black lagoon. Oh, okay

Monsters one of the categories monsters And so you want to group like things together so that you can like you'll have a lot of ideas But the reality is when you start grouping them You'll really consolidate into a lot fewer ideas, because there'll be more categories, right? And the reason that categories are really important is you want to sort of map out the design space that you have available to you, and that the brainstorm is a really good way to understand the category space.

Now the interesting thing is some categories will have lots and lots of options in them because just, oh, monstrous, there's lots of monstrous, people name a lot of monstrous. Some of the categories will not. There might be one person said one thing that's its own category, transformation, let's say. The thing that's really interesting and the thing that's important is just because something has more things in it doesn't make it a better category or a more important category. From a design standpoint, it might make it a richer category in the sense that maybe you can make more cards out of it because there's more individual things there.

But one of the things, for example, transformation was something that got written down when we brainstormed Innistrad. And at the time, it was his own little thing. Transformation was something that got written down when we brainstormed Innistrad. And at the time, it was his own little thing. I remember noting it when we grouped it. We said, oh, this is his own, this is talking about a theme that runs through horror. And later on, when we were trying to figure out how to do wearables, and we got onto double-face cards, and we realized that we had a card that was one thing

that became a second thing. I went back and got Transformation. I'm like, oh, okay, one of the things we talked about is Transformation, we've now made a mechanic. Now, ideally we made it for the werewolves, but the werewolves also are core to Transformation. They're a human that turns into a monster. Vampires and werewolves turn into monsters,

but it's a one-time, one-way thing. Werewolves go back and forth, and that's a very unique thing about werewolves, that, you know, half the time, or a portion of the time, they're not a monster. And that's a very unique thing. But once we had the double-faced cards, I realized the transformation as a theme,

I'm like, oh, scientist turns into fly. Oh, little girl turns into a demon. The idea that there's a vampire turns into a bat. We've started, once we understand the transformation, oh, and that's the other thing that you can do. One of the things that's useful sometimes, once you group categories, you can then do sub brainstorming.

So let's say for example, someone said transformation, I think that's a cool idea, but we really didn't explore it. We can do a second pass and I can say, okay guys, our new sub brainstorm is transformation in horror films. I want when one thing changes into another thing. And then you get, oh, scientists in the fly and girl gets possessed by demon, and person

turns into zombie. You can start talking about, you start identifying those things and get more space on that. And a lot of times what you'll find is you might have a meaty category that just touched upon a little bit, but when you brainstorm, then you start getting all the different card ideas. So, okay. Number three is you want to sort of categorize. just touch them on a little bit, but when you brainstorm, then you start getting all the different card ideas. So okay, number three is you want to sort of categorize. And another important thing about categorizing

is it starts giving you, you're mapping, what I call mapping the space, right? You wanna understand, okay, I wanna make gothic horror, what's available to me? What can I do? What are the tropes? Like it does a lot to sort of help you think about it and it helps you think about it in a category form which is very useful.

A, when you're trying to figure out mechanics, categories are a good thing to think about for mechanics. B, when you're thinking about themes, categories are good things for themes. And so a lot of early design is about trying to get big picture stuff. Well, categorization is all about big picture. And so you want to categorize. Okay, after you categorize, if you need to, you can do the sub-brainstorming I'm talking about.

A lot of time that happens there is when you see something and you feel like there's more meat on the bone, but you haven't gotten it, because maybe for example, you were brainstorming and someone mentioned transformation and the team went on, but the only thing up there, like it's its own little category, but you're like, you know, there's more there.

That's when sub brainstorming comes in. So you can go, okay guys, I wanna go back, I wanna fill in. We've made some stuff, we've made some categories. I wanna go back and fill this in. Now the other thing is once you get categories, so I like voting when you have individual things because it's very telling about

what individual things are popular. Once you group things together, you can do voting again. You can say, okay, now we've categorized these things into categories, let's vote. Usually there's less categories and individual things, so the number of votes you give people is less. Let's say you group things into 12 categories or something. Okay, I give people three votes. I'll go down a little bit. But then the idea is the reason you vote after categorizing is

to get a sense of what is exciting people. Now, because you voted before, you will have some of the information without having to vote again. Oh, look, we grouped together a lot of stuff and a lot of things are monsters. Look how many votes monsters got. All the things in monsters got a lot of votes individually. That'll kind of tell you that monsters have some weight to it. But it's nice once you do it because you're going to do sub brainstorming and you're going to fill things out. And so it's important to sort of it because you're going to do sub brainstorming and you're going to fill things out. And so it's important to sort of take a step back and only because like transformation

might be a really meaty area, but you know, it was one thing in the initial brainstorm and maybe one or two people voted for it, but you hadn't fleshed it out yet so people weren't thinking about it. But once you really spend some time, people might go, oh, I'm really excited by this, where they just hadn't really thought about it before because it was light. That's why it's important, the categorization is important to sort of understand what value you have and what's there. The next part about it, and this is the part that a lot of people don't do, you make a

categorization. Next is recording it, is taking your brainstorm and putting it in a place that you can reference back to. Now, one of the things we do in R&D is we have meeting notes. And so all our meeting notes go up. We have a place we keep all our notes for the team. And so as part of our normal process, we do that. I also like, by the way, not just keeping the raw brainstorm, but as you sort of work

it through and make the categories, write that up and then re-put that up so people can see it. And it's nice to put that resource somewhere where we have an area where we'll put resources, and I like to put that where you have files and things that people can grab. And it's like, okay, here is our sort of mind-mapped area. Whatever it is we're brainstorming on, here is the sort of mind mapped area, or whatever it is we're brainstorming on, here is the finished product. And I think that's really important

that when you are brainstorming, you've created, like I said, I called it a tool. And that tool is not just useful once, that tool is you can go back to. So for example, like just a different set. So when I was doing Infinity, Infinity has it's a carnival slash amusement park slash circus.

So we did a lot of brainstorming on, okay, I wanna really map out what are all the things you expect to see at a carnival and an amusement park at a circus. And we really, we made a giant list and we were very thorough there And that's a particular case where I'm like look this category is not infinitely wide There's only so many rides that you would see at multiple places

And so we categorized them and understood them and then when we were making attractions. I kept that list in front of me Oh the other thing that I did sometimes you will do when you're working in a category is sometimes I'll take a list and I'll prioritize it. And what that means is usually what I do is I make three categories when I'm prioritizing. Category one is must have. So I'll just use amusement park rides, let's say. Okay, we've got to have a roller coaster. Like a roller coaster is like definitive amusement park.

Like we'll miss if we don't have a roller coaster. And then the second category is like, yeah, we want stuff in this category. This is something we'll seriously consider. Maybe we won't do it, but we'll seriously consider it. A lot of category two is going to get used. So maybe I'm like, it's a spinny, the ride where you, it spins around and you get pinned against the wall. That's not as iconic as a roller coaster, but it's pretty iconic and if we have space, I'd like to do it. So that's like the second category. It's like, look, I have to have to do rollercoaster.

I have failed to do an amusement park set if I'm not doing rollercoaster. If I don't do a little spinny thing, okay, I mean, maybe I have better things, but you know, that's in the second category. And the third category is like, I don't know. Yeah, technically. And maybe it's like, you know, the little car ride

the kids sit in where the car just goes in a circle. Okay, maybe we want to do that. There's a lot like, we had a lot of kiddie rides and what we found is, oh maybe we just want a, maybe we just want a thing that represents kiddie rides. And we did like a kiddie coaster. But the idea of the third bucket is, it's not that we won't use it. I just want to be thorough. The third bucket is like, I don't anticipate us using it.

So the idea of the three buckets is, we are going to use this absolutely. We could use it, there's a good chance we'll use it. Some amount of the second category will get used. And the third one is like, I don't expect us using it. Maybe we will, maybe there's something we need and it just fits the need of something. We have a cool design, that's the slam dunk answer for it.

It's not that category three can't get used, but you don't anticipate it getting used. You will use one, you will use a lot of two, you don't expect to use three, that's the buckets I use. So one of the things that's good when you're making that resource for the end is, not only do you wanna make lists of things, but I find prioritizing the lists,

and then putting that somewhere where everybody has access to it. So for example, I'm like, okay, we're making rides. So we're in the middle of infinity. We're making the attractions. These are all, they're not all rides. Some of them are, you know, places you go, food stands and things. But we made a list of, our list wasn't just a ride.

The list was of all the different things that it could be. But we did subcategories. Even talking about that, I think we did attractions, we had three different categories, even we subdivided attractions, which was some of it is rides, some of them is games, and then some of them we called miscellaneous, but like the fortune teller or the ticket booth, like things that aren't a ride and aren't a game, but that you will participate and you interact with. And the idea is, so once you generate that, you then want to make the list, you want to

prioritize the list so that people can use it as a resource. That's the reason I like the buckets. And then you want to put that somewhere where people can access it. Think of it as a tool. It is a resource. And I know whenever I make a set and I have that resource, it's something I can go back to. Another thing that we do sometimes, by the way, that's a, this is a magic particular

thing is I like to take our brainstorm list, go to the creative team and say to them, hey, use this as a jumping off point. Can you give me a list of cool names that would be fun in this app? And that what I find is a lot of times having like names that sound like magic card names when you're going like not just have the raw list, but have a list of names and use that raw list. And I like having a list of names that can inspire people to design. And so that's another thing that we'll use the raw brainstorming list sometime

to make a sort of a brainstorm of names, of cool magic names that fit the theme. Anyway guys, so to recap, part one of brainstorming is the firestorm process. Get as many ideas as you can. It is fine to prompt. Number two is voting. Have people sort of give opinions. Get as many ideas as you can. It is fine to prompt. Number two is voting.

Have people sort of give opinions. Brainstorming you want to interact with each other. Voting ideally, ideally not interact if you can help it. It's hard to do live. Then part three is organization and categorization of figuring out how things go together. You then can do sub-brainstorming where you take areas that you didn't fully flesh out and things go together. You then can do sub brainstorming, where you take areas that you didn't fully flesh out and flesh them out.

Then I like to do another series of voting where you're voting on categories to get a general set of people to think of categories. Then you wanna turn that rough list into a more workable thing. You wanna put it into buckets. I like my three buckets. But you wanna sort of do a list of priorities

and then create a document that people can then visit and see so they can use it. At least in magic design, that's how we do it. I think you need brainstorming for other things. There might be some functionality. I've talked a little more today about brainstorming for magic design, but I think most of the things I'm saying are applicable to any brainstorming.

It is true if your output is slightly different than my output is, there might be some elements of brainstorming that we don't do that you want to do that are useful. I'm definitely sort of tainted. This is magic, magic design brainstorming. Anyway guys, I hope this was enjoyable to you and I like doing podcasts from time to time that are more about skills that we use in design. I've got a lot of positive feedback that players like podcasts about that. So I hope you enjoyed today's podcast. But guys, I'm at work.

So we all know what that means. Instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. I'll see you guys next time. Bye bye.