Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #1283: Top 20 Most Influential Expansions, Part 1

Episode Date: October 10, 2025

This podcast is part one of three going over my talk from MagicCon: Atlanta looking at the top 20 most influential Magic expansions of all time.

I'm pulling out of my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time to have their drive to work. Okay, so at MagicConn, Atlanta, I gave a talk about the 20 most influential magic expansions of all time. If you want to watch that speech, it is up on, I think, YouTube, I think. So you can watch me give the speech with all the pictures I made a lot of slides. But I always do a podcast version of the talk, which is a little bit different. So you can actually watch both or slash listen to both.

So anyway, I'm going to go through the top 20, and I'm going to tell some of the stories will overlap what I told. I might give some details here. They're different. So I try to make it a little bit different. Okay, so number 20. Oh, my caveat that I gave in the speech was these are the 20 most influential expansions, A expansions, so not alpha, but I do acknowledge alpha as being obviously super influential.

And then the idea is what sets really influence the sets that follow in it. Being influential means innovation is pretty important, and it just sort of did something that then influenced other sets after it. Obviously, this waits older sets, since the older sets had the easier chance to do something for the very first time. That becomes super important. Anyway, number 20, Lord of the Rings. Tales of Middle Earth. So Lord of the Rings is the most recent.

It came out in June of 2003. The lead vision designer was Ben Hayes. The lead set designer was Glenn Jones. So the reason I picked this is it really became the touchstone for how we do

universes beyond. And that's why I sort of picked it. Really sort of establishing the key to doing really flavorful top down. The idea that look we don't have to reinvent the wheel we can use a lot of mechanics that already exists

a mass is a great example where like we needed to get the orc army how do we figure that we adapted a mass to do that you know and the set just made use a lot of what the set did is made use of existing mechanics but repurpose them to make them have you know a flavor sense within you know Lord of the Rings

we did a lot of very innovative things in the set we played around a lot with booster Fun, what Booster Fund could be, like basic lands that are maps of Middle Earth. We had a lot of different funds with frames,

with box toppers. We really experimented with how we use sagas. We had a fun thing with the Nazgal where we did nine different pictures. That's become a template that we're looking at using again.

We We did serialized cards and different serialized cards at different amounts so that, you know, different things that people could have some chance of maybe getting. And then, of course, we did the one ring, the serialized one ring, which was, I think, hands down, the best promotion we've ever done. If everyone knows the story of all that all played out. I mean, really, the key to Lord of the Rings is

how exactly do we make a universe's beyond set that shines? And the answer is by making a set that just is as flavorful as possible to the source material. That it feels like, oh, playing this game is kind of like living this property. And Lord of the Rings did that amazingly well. And that is why Lord of the Rings is number 20. Number 19 unglued, August of 1998. The lead designer was me. The lead developer was kind of me.

or nobody. It didn't have a lot of development. So I'll say it was me as much as there was any development. So Unglued came about because Bill Joel, who at the time was the head designer, and Bill Rose, who would later become head designer, had an idea for a set. They said to me, here's what we think is a cool idea. What if we made a set that just wasn't tournament legal? That we did something to it to designate maybe a border, a silver border.

I don't know if they actually pitched me silver border but the idea was it wasn't tournament legal and so you were free you could do whatever you wanted because it didn't have the restrictions of having to work in tournaments and that's really that was the jumping off point they picked me to do it I guess

because they thought I was the most out there designer I seemed very creative and they're like okay we want to see what you'll do with this so I will say that when they pitched this to me I added some elements of it that became core of what unsets are was my doing. For example, the addition of humor, nothing they said.

The reason I added humor was at the time, we really were very, magic was very badass, in quotes. And so I thought that magic could have some more levity. Obviously, nowadays we have a bit more levity. But back in the day, it was really, that wasn't something we did. So I was like, okay, well, here's something we don't normally do.

And I really leaned into the idea of what couldn't the rules handle? My goal when I was making the set is I only wanted to make cards that we couldn't make in a normal expansion. That was my original goal. Anyway, the unsets really paved away for lots of things. So, first and foremost, full art lands. The story behind that is, I'm flying to Jen Con, and I sit next to Christopher Rush, who many people know he's an artist, he did Black Lotus, among many other pieces of art. And he was a graphic designer that worked at Wizards, that did the man-a-symbols.

So he told me about this idea that he had. He goes, imagine if on a basic land, instead of the art being contained to just the art box, what if it was the whole card? And his point is, there's not much you need to know about basic land. It's pretty simple. People understand basic land. Wouldn't be cool if we just made use of the full card

to play up the art. And he had pitched this idea, and no one wanted to do it. And it wasn't, I think he just told me because it was an idea he liked. We were just chatting. And I was like, well, oh, in fact, this, that conversation happened before the onset was even the thing. We had had that conversation. So when I was making unglued, I remember that conversation and I'm like, why can't we do that?

So I went to him and I say, I want to do that. What do we need to do? And I worked with him and we ended up making a brand new frame. And the idea is, you know, why not? And because it was the weird set, nobody really stopped me. I was making the weird set. In fact, that was, I think the code name was the weird set. And it obviously became a giant hit.

In fact, probably the most popular thing in Ungloom. We put one per booster pack. And they were a monumental success. So much so that every unset since then has done Fowar lands. And it has moved into normal magic. Nowadays, like every set usually has some... Not all the lands are Foulart, but there's usually some Foulare. And it's become a fun...

way to sort of just do something extra with the lands. Another big thing that I did for the first time is token cards. So token cards came about because I was in Japan for the very first Japanese Grand Prix. And I noticed that somebody, they had, what's the card called? It's a card that in every turn makes a 1-1 saffering. It's a green card. It's from Tempest. I'm blinking on the name of it. You all know what it is. But anyway, they were using cards from another game to represent the little sappelings. And he gave me this idea. Long before, in my youth, I used to be involved in another kind of magic, like magic tricks. I was a magician. I used to do kids' parties. And I remember I used to do some card tricks.

And there was a deck that I bought once. The idea of the deck was, it was just lots of random weird cards. It's a 14 and a half of clubs. It's a black seven of diamonds. It just has had weird things that like, and the idea wasn't that the deck was a trick per se. It just was a variety of things that you could figure out what to do with. And I really like that. I leaned in that for unglued. Like, what can I give you that is just different? That fits in a booster pack. And okay, we had never made tokens before. So I made, I think there's six tokens in unglued. Because tokens weren't a thing yet, I wasn't very specific. I had art. I had color, but I didn't, I didn't have a name. I didn't have a size. I didn't.

have any other mechanics on it. It's just like, you could use this, you know, and so, you know, there's a human that could be a human or a soldier or citizen, you know, it had a lot of options to give you flexibility because we had never done before. Obviously, that went on, you know, eventually it became something we put in every single booster pack and became such a staple that we, now every magic set has, you know, like just it's a staple element of every magic set. And the reason we can do it is because we have the tokens in the pack.

other things unglu did it did dice rolling for the first time oh it did alternate frames for the first time ever it did frames that like didn't look like a normal magic card maybe the card's so big it's on two cards

maybe the text box is tiny so you can make a bigger rules text maybe it was sideways maybe a character's knocked off one card onto another card all sorts of things that we had never done before I actually spent some time talking to the graphic designer about, you know, and the printers.

Like, what can we do? How can we print cards? And that really paved the way for a lot of things. Obviously, unglued two would be where I do split cards for the first time. And it doesn't get, because unglu-two never happens, I put them in invasion, which I'll talk about when we get to it. Oh, maybe evasions in the top 20. So anyway, really sort of set the stage of, like,

pushing the boundaries of what we could do, breaking out of text boxes, of the idea that the art isn't confined to the art box. that is something obviously we make use of it Planeswalkers and other cards we had the first ever watermarks show up there we had the first ever multiplayer cards that reference

multiplayer play you know we had a lot of cards that would things that would spawn whole mechanics infernal Spawn of Evil became the forecast mechanic you know there was just a lot of things that would then go on to be other things in math

And there are a lot of individual cards, well, I mean, a lot of cards that would spawn, cards that would spawn real cards, like the cheese stands alone becomes bearing glory, or Timmy becomes Elvish Piper, stuff like that. So anyway, Unglued was a very influential set, and why I have it, at number 19. Number 18, Tempest in October of 1997, I led the video. I led the design. Henry Stern led the development. The story here is,

so the way I first got involved with Wizards is I pitched a puzzle called Magic of the Puzzling for the Dueless, which is a magazine we made for Magic. I then, once that became successful, I flew myself to JemCon, and I met the editor-in-chief, Catherine Haynes, and I pitched articles.

And I started doing articles for the Dueless. And then, because I demonstrated that I knew magic, and I could write well, and I turned things in on deadline, I started doing stuff for other sections of the company. In fact, there was a point at which I was doing freelance work for seven different sections of the company. And everyone thinks that I exaggerate. I'm not exaggerating. I was doing a lot of writing for a lot of different parts of the company. So I was up and rent, and they used to fly me up every once in a while. I would meet with people and stuff.

And while I was up there, I interacted with Mike Davis. So who is Mike Davis? A little background on Mike Davis. So Mike Davis was a friend of Richard Garfield. I say was. He sadly passed away. So Richard liked inventing games, and he invented a whole bunch of games, including a game called Robo Rally.

Mike thought Robo Raleigh was a great game. But Richard was more interested in making games and trying to sell them. He wasn't a salesperson, and he really liked to make games because it was fun to make them. But Mike said, well, if I could sell Robo Raleigh, If I could sell it, you know, he really wanted the game to get made. And Richard said he'd split, you know, the profit with him. And so Mike started setting up meetings. Now, Richard at the time lived in Portland.

So one of the meetings Mike set up is with a man named Peter Ackison in up in Washington, rent in Washington, near Seattle. And the idea was it was a little tiny company, a little, all they did was a little roll-playing company. Wizard of the Coast. But Mike was being very thorough. And so they come up and they talk to Peter. And as the story goes, most people know the story.

It was, you know, too many parts for them to make. They're too small company. So Richard said, what could you make? And that's when Peter gives him the parameters that gets Richard to go make magic. Obviously, because that's all. So Mike ends up when Wizards, when magic sort of hits big,

Mike ends up working in R&D as the vice president of R&D. So it's Mike Davis who actually hires me that I was up there one day in Renton. I see Mike. We were talking. And I said to him, you know, I'd be willing to move to Seattle. And he says, when could you start? And then he and I went for a little bit of a walk. And he explained to me that I was being hired as a developer, not as a designer.

I said I really wanted to be a game designer. And he was sort of like, well, we have Richard. You know, we're not really looking for more game designers, but we really need game developers. What was going on at the time was a bunch of people that were working on magic wanted to start working on other things. Richard was designing other games and other people that had to have been working on magic

wanted to move off. Wizards was doing a lot of other games. And so they hired four people to sort of become the new default developers on magic. Me, Bill Rose, Mike Elliott, William Jackers were the four. And so he really stressed that in this meeting

that we weren't hiring designers, we were hiring developers. Now here's the thing. I wanted to be a designer. That was my goal, to be a magic designer. But I said, okay, let me get in the door. I'll be an R&D. I will be there.

And I go, I'll bide my time. So anyway, I start working at Wizards and all the early sets I'm a developer on. I started with alliances. So like alliances, mirage, visions, whether or the like, I'm just on the development team. You know, I'm, the four of us basically are the development team. Eventually, Henry Stern will joys. But the five of us, for a while, are the development team on most sets. But one day after hours, so one of the fun things that working in R&D is Richard Garfield worked in R&D.

And Richard loved games. I've never met someone in my whole life that loves games more than Richard. And so he, after hours, he would introduce to us games we had never played before. Often in other languages, like I remember, the first time I played Sessler's of Catan, it was called Siedler-Day Catan. And it was in German, and Richard taught us how to play. And we just assumed, I mean, okay, whatever Richard tells us, because we couldn't read the instructions. And so, in the way, we played a lot of games, and I had a lot of fun, and I really got to know Richard. So one day, we're just playing, and Richard mentions that he hasn't worked on magic designed since Arabian nights.

It's been a little while. And he said, you know, it might be fun to work on magic again. So I say to him, seeing an opportunity, I go, well, Richard, if I ran a design team, would you be on my design team? And Richard, like, yeah, that sounds fun. Absolutely, I'd be on your design team. So then I go to Joel Mick, with the head designer at the time, and I go, hey, you know, early magic most of the design work was done by outside groups. But we were talking about trying to move design resources into R&D, meaning have R&D started, instead of having outside people design and we develop internally, why aren't we designing as well? So I go to Joel Mick, and I'm like, you know, we talk about doing maybe internal designs.

There's a set upcoming, I would like to lead it. I, you know, and I said, you know, Richard Garfield said he'd be on my design team. And Joe's like, well, well, Richard's going to be on your design team. And so that's how I got my first design, which was Tempest. So I led the design. Henry Stern was the lead to the lead to design. So Tempest was really interesting. I was, so what happened at the same time as Tempest is a guy named Mike Ryan and I.

Mike was an editor on Magic. He and I got to know each other because he was editing my book of puzzles. And we became good friends. Michael was a writer. I was a writer. And we really bemoaned that Magic didn't have an ongoing storyline. There were some stories that brothers were, I mean, there were, like, touches upon things. But, like, how about an ongoing, like, something that went across years?

So we said, you know, invent the thing you want to see. So Mike and I put together a proposal called the Weatherite saga, which we pitched to Wizards. and they said yes So they were so eager to do it We actually we sort of retrofitted Weatherlight But Weatherlight wasn't really designed to be the story We managed like he We changed it over during the second art wave

So we got a little bit of art in it So there's a little bit of story on the art And we got to do the names and flavor text on But we were limited Tempest was us full glory Like really for the first time telling the story In the cards Now obviously like Antiquities told the Brothers War story

of, but it was sort of hinting at a story. We were telling the story, and not just in flavor text and names, we were telling it in art. In fact, in the Dueless, we put a, it was like a three-page spread that was a full, what do you call it? Like a shot by shot of the story. So it would show the picture, a little paragraph explaining what's going on. And it really could give you the entire story. In fact, in Tempest, instead of a rulebook, if you bought the starter, it came with a storybook telling the story and introducing you to the characters.

That was the first time we'd ever done anything like that. First ongoing continuing story, first time the story was really integrated into the art of the story as well as the names and flavor text. You know, we spent a lot of time we divvied up.

The way we did the flavor text is each character was given to a different writer. For example, I had Ertai and Karn. So I wrote all the cards with Ertai and Karn. I wrote those labor texts. If it was either any flavor text referencing them or from their, you know, from their voice. So that the reason we gave it to specific writers is that different writers could sort of find the voice of the character.

Anyway, the other thing we did is they hired the very first world building team. Mark Tadine, Anson Maddox, among others, Matt Wilson. Anyway, they hired a bunch of people and for the first time ever, Magic, like, built a world. you know, actually figured out what it looked like. And Rath, I was really eager to get to a new place. So we made the plan of Rath, and it had a whole look and feel. And once again, we were doing characters because we were doing the Weatherlight Saga, so there's a regular cast.

So all of them got a definitive look so that there's just continuity from art to art. Tempice also, it just did a lot of basic things. There's a lot of static core effects that happen there. There's a lot of... One of the things in R&D is when we use an ability, we tend to call it after the set that did it first. So, like, you talk to, like, a root waller ability. That's like an activated giant growth.

And it's named after root waller. Well, the very first root walla was in Tempice. Actually, the funny thing about that just real quick, the very first root wallow was actually supposed to be a chuck walla, which is an actual creature. And the artist who drew it was unaware, they thought we had made it up. And so they made this fantastical creature.

But it's like, oh, it's an actual real creature. So we ended up having to change the name because, well, it didn't look like a chuck wall. But it didn't look like a root walla. But anyway, Tempest did a lot to really sort of put that stuff on the map and define that. So that's why number 18 is Tempest. Number 17 is Miriden. Mirdin was October 2003. I lived the design.

Randy led the development. So interesting, Mirrodin was the first what I'll call sort of modern world building. Tempus was the first world building where we brought in a team and they built a world. But Mirrodin was the first time

where we said, okay, what's the mechanical theme we're playing into? Oh, the mechanical theme is artifacts. Okay, how do we make a, you know, we wanted to make a metal world. And so we invented a world or the creative team came up with the world

where there's a reason that metal was imbued inside things every living thing was partly metal and how did that come to be and what is this and you know the making of the world's mirroden was really the beginning of sort of world building where creative and design are working hand in hand like Tempice we made a world

and there's a little bit I mean there's a little bit of oh we need this for the set so you have to add this but mostly the world was made to be the world it was and then we sort of retrofit the stuff we did into it. I mean, there's a little bit that we did, but the Mirrodin, like, from the beginning is, this is what mechanically we're trying to do.

Let's build a world that's evocative of the mechanics that we are building. Mirrodin also, by the way, had four really influential mechanics. It had affinity, which was the first cost reduction mechanic. The idea of cost reduction mechanic is, oh, this bill gets cheaper under certain conditions. Affinity itself has gone on to become evergreen. and not evergreen, deciduous. We use it all the time. And we use it all sorts of things.

Car types, subtypes, preacher types, and even weirder things than that. But it really led the way for the idea of cost reduction as a core mechanical piece. Second, we had entwine. Entwine was a mechanic where you had a choice between two things, but you could pay mana to do both. And the idea of getting to do both,

having a choice, and both being an option, with something in Twyne really added. And it's something we use all the time now. It's a very common thing. It spawned mechanics and such. It was very useful. Then we had equipment. Equipment almost like it became...

I mean, equipment is probably became as one of the fastest items ever to become evergreen. It's like we put it in a block and once the lock was done, we're going to keep doing this. And so really the idea of bringing to life objects that your creature can use. in the past when magic first started everything was kind of an aura

but we like the idea that I give him a sword well if my creature dies the sword's still there somebody else could pick up the sword and then the final keyword was entwine not entwine was imprint

imprint was a mechanic where you would exile a card and then care about qualities of that card now it's not that we I mean not that we imprint has come back but we use imprinting a lot

without sort of naming it as imprint The idea of card as a thing to register something is pretty cool and pretty powerful. And so we use that quite a bit. I want to put Mirrodin. I mean, Mirrodin was really sort of also did a lot to sort of... We had done artifact sets before in small number, like antiquities, obviously. But this was the first to demonstrate how we could really use. use it in a larger block sense.

So anyway, number 17, Meriden, which brings us to number 16, Magic 2010. So this is June, oh, sorry, July of 2009. Aaron Forsyth was the lead designer, and Eric Lauer was lead

developer. So basically, so Magic, when Alpha first came out, Alpha had, obviously, all new cards. And then Beta had two new cards because we had left two of them off the sheet. But after that, all the corsets had no new cards. That was just the way the corsets were made. And Aaron, I mean, so Magic 2010 has about half the cards are brand new.

So how did that come about? Well, so it turns out after 10th edition, I'm sorry, after 9th edition, we put out Russian, Magic in Russian, the Corset in Russian. Russian. So the rule we had at the time that started with Alpha is when we did a limited edition, the first time something appeared, we put it in black border. And then each time you reprinted it, it showed up in white border. Like whenever we did reprints in a corset. And so because Russia, it was the first time it had ever appeared in Russia, Russia got a black border. And the cards looked really cool. We hadn't had a core level corset cars in a black border for a long. long time. And people really liked it. So when they were making 10th edition, they're like, oh, people really liked the black border of Russian. Maybe we should just do black borders. And they decided to get rid of the white border. And 10th edition was the first corset to just have all black borders. And that was really exciting. And a lot of people bought it. But the problem

was, okay, well, what is the next corset going to do? And that was Magic 2010. So Aaron, Aaron really said, okay, I'm going to start over. In the halls of R&D, there are three uncut beta sheets, the common, the uncommon, and the wearer sheet. And he used to stare at that, just sort of like a sense of like, okay, what did Richard do? When Richard first made magic, what did he do? And I think Aaron really wanted this idea of how do we remake the corset.

So first and foremost, his idea was, look, every time we make a core set, we have this rule that we can only do reprints. So a lot of times we want to do something, and we can't because we're restricted in what we're. can do. Why can't we make new cards? Like, let's take this restriction off. And that was really important,

because at the time, only premier sets made new cards. And Aaron sort of said, look, any magic set that needs new cards should make new cards. You know, if we want to make the best entry-level experience, the best core set, why not? Why can't we just make the cards we need to make?

And so Aaron just started making cards. In fact, I was on this team. And we did a lot of top-down design. Aaron was really big in a resonance, that a lot of what makes magic shine is, you know, and we did a lot of like, okay, this is a genie, like you rub the lamp and get your three wishes. It's the genie of the wishes. What does it do? You know, and we made something that was really evocative. I mean, it definitely, one of the coolest things about Magic 2010 is you really got the sense that it was

something that, um, it just felt so basic and right and so flavorful. Um, so anyway, uh, it was the first set to have mythic rare first set to have plains walkers first set to have a pre-release it brought lightning bolt anyone made to mention it brought lightning bolt back to standard it just did a lot

of bold things and it really was something that was pretty influential and really had a lot of impact on sets that followed and not just core sets okay we'll do one last set before I end today and this is number 15 alliances okay so a

alliances came out in June of 1996. The head designer was Scaf Elias, and the head developer was Charlie Cotino. So, when Richard first started playing Magic, he had a bunch of playtefters.

A bunch of them were people he met at the University of Pennsylvania, in graduate school, I believe. And anyway, they're all studying math. And so they became the playtesters that I refer to as the East Coast Playtefters. There are other people, and later on the talk or another podcast, I'll mention some of the other ones.

But anyway, the East Coast Playtesters was Scafellias, Jim Lynn, Dave Petty, and Chris Page. And Richard had each of his different groups work on expansions because he knew someday we need them. Turns out, so magic comes out, they print enough for a year's supply of magic. That sells out in like six weeks. Then they make beta, which is like, okay, no, no, really. This, this is a month. enough for a year of supply and sold out in like a week.

So they realized they had a hit on their hands and that they had a sort of speed up getting expansions out. So the first expansion Richard made in Ramey Knights. The second expansion, the East Coast play sessions were working on Ice Age. They stopped that to work on the second expansion, which was Antiquities. And that is this that we

were talking about. Oh, no, no, sorry, sorry. Antiquities is number 14. This is number 15. This is alliances. Oh, sorry, sorry. I started telling the story of antiquities. Well, when we get to antiquities. I'll re-tell that story. So, Alliances was made to be its own separate

thing. In development, we ended up tying it to Ice Age. It wasn't originally designed to be an add-on to Ice Age. All that work was actually added in development. But it was the very first set that was part of a block. That is pretty

influential. Oh, the story of alliances, which I've told before, but such a fun story. so Chris Page was one of my editors on my book of magic puzzles I used to tap out the opponent so they couldn't do anything so you could win your game and he came inspired by the idea of what if there were cards you could play when you were tapped out which is where we got the pitch cards cards that you could cast for free

what we call alternate cast cards like oh well you could pitch a card of the same color and sometimes pay life to cast it and that freaked out our customer service department now there was a big gap The longest gap ever between magic expansions was right before alliances came up. There was an eight-month gap between homelands and alliances. So there was a lot of pent-up desire

and homelands hadn't gone so great. So there was a lot of attention going on alliances. Alliancees really needed to hit its landing. And the customer service people really didn't like the pitch cards. They thought they were so wrong, so not appropriate that they wrote a letter to Peter saying they believe that they were going to

change the release of alliances, that alliances wasn't going to be received well. And they're like, we are the customer service, we're the ones to deal with the players day today, we have the eyes and ears, we understand the pulse of the players, the players aren't going to like this. So Peter cut in half, like instead of, you know, he cut the printing in half, the allocation in half. And so we hear about this in R&D. So we talk among yourselves. So we send SCAF as a representative. And SCAF says, Peter, R&D's talked. Here's what we're going to do. We are going to put the other money and we will pay for the second half of the printing of alliances. And we will split the profits to you 50-50. There's zero

risk for you and you still make money. And once Peter saw how, like how the R&D was willing to put its money where its mouth was, he put it back up to 100%. So, anyway, alliances obviously had alternate casting cost cards. That become a big step. Not just pitch cards, but just lots of different ways. You can do things in other things. And it was, one of the things about alliances is it just had so many cards that did things that we had never done before. And a lot of cards that became, like, for example, Taste of Paradise was kind of the proto kicker card. Like, there's a couple cards in the set that you could pay extra mana to have extra effect. And it just, I mean, in my talk, I just, there's like slide upon slide. It's like, oh, the first card is

destroy something in power four or more. The first card, divide things into piles. The first card, make your opponent, make a choice. The first card where you see the other creature or a spell. And there's just endless one of these. The East Coast Play Chess were very inventive, really good designers. Like I said, they did antiquities, they did fallen empires, they did Ice Age, they did alliances. And so I think alliances was their most creative inventive set.

Antiquities, we'll get to next time, which is also on my list. but alliances just, it's chock full of good ideas. It's just you can tell these designers that have all these areas they want to explore. And so much of that would later get explored. But it really did a lot of foundational work. So anyway, that is number 15 alliances. Okay, guys, I am at work. And so obviously this is going to be looking like a three-partner.

So I hope you enjoyed my talk in podcast form. But I will do the rest in future podcasts. But anyway, guys, I'm at work, so I don't know what that means. It means at the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. I'll see you all next time. Bye-bye.