Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #1326: How I Have Changed as a Designer

Episode Date: March 27, 2026

Last year, I celebrated my 30th anniversary of working at Wizards of the Coast and on Magic. In this episode, I look back and explore how I've changed as a designer over the last three decades.

I'm pulling on my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for out there. Drive to work. Okay, so today, I got asked a question a while ago that really been percolating around my head. So I thought I would do a podcast on it because I thought it was an interesting topic. So I just celebrated last year my 30th anniversary working on magic. So I've been now doing magic design for over 30 years. So the question was, how has my design?

changed over time. And anyway, it was an interesting question. Someone on my blog asked me. It's the kind of thing that oftentimes in my blog, I get asked a question that's way too complex to actually answer on the blog. It really is like a thinker, right? And so it's just, I've been thinking about it,

and I decided I'm going to do a podcast on it because I think the topic is so interesting and so, there's just so much to say that it's hard to write an answer in any believable amount of time. But if I have 30 minutes to talk about it, I thought I could give an answer. So one of the interesting questions is sort of

how have I evolved as a designer? And the answer is I've evolved a lot. Like, one of the things about magic, I talk all the time about the iterative process, right? You make something, you get feedback on it, you change it based on the feedback, and you continue that loop. That's the iterative process.

We do that to make magic sets, but also you can think of magic as, as a game is sort of an iterative process. Like, we make a magic set, we get feedback, we take that feedback into our next magic set. And so we are constantly evolving. But not only is the iterative process true for game design itself,

I as a designer am going through iterative process, meaning I do things, I get feedback about what I do, I change how I do things. And so that's another, like one of the other really interesting things about this question is, I have changed because the nature, Like, I learn things, and as I learn things, I change them, you know.

One of the advantages of doing something for 30 years is, hey, I think I'm more efficient at it now than I was 30 years ago. Mostly, because I, you know, there's a thing, a book called Outliers, but they talk about like, how do you get good at something? And the key idea is, I think they say 10,000 hours, but 10,000 hours with constant feedback, kind of what the book says. It's sort of like, well, you've got to do it a lot. You got to do it a lot.

You got to get feedback. and what makes you really, really good at something is just the mere act of doing it a lot with feedback. But one of the things that's clear here is I get feedback. You all are out there. I go online every day.

I have my blog and social media. I interact with the public daily. So I get plenty of feedback. And I got my 10,000 hours in. I have no idea how many thousands of hours I've done magic design. But it has been my 40-plus hour job for 30 years.

And I don't always clack off necessarily. So just because I'm not at work doesn't mean I'm not thinking, you know. I recently told the story of like how I came up with entwine, mechanic from Mirrodin in a dream. Because I just was obviously like I was thinking so hard about it. My subconscious is like, let me work on that for you.

So anyway, I spent a lot of time on magic. So what has changed? How am I different now than I was 30 years ago? So one of the things, so I'm going to talk about some larger trends. Trend number one is that I think your scope changes with time. And what I mean by that is, when I first got to Wizards, I was so enamored with making the perfect card. I wanted to, you know, I was very focused on individual cards.

And so that was kind of what drove me. I wanted to make the best magic cards I could. And the reason that so is that's how I interacted with the game. I was a magic player. and what is the game? The game is cards, right? And so when I first got to Wizards, I just wanted to make amazing magic cards.

And I did. I made thousands of cards. I made a lot of cards. And at some point, I'm like, well, cards are really cool, and I like cards, and I continue to make cards. But you know what?

I want to go bigger than just the cards. And I really started focusing, like, on mechanics, right? Okay, it was one thing to make a card, but it's another thing to make a whole mechanic. What if I make a mechanic? Then you can make all these cards out of the mechanics. and probably even before I got to mechanics, it's just like making cycles, making things that were

there's through lines, evolutions. A lot of my early design, you know, like in Mirrodin, we did the Calder equipment where there's one piece in each set and they put them all together, they make their own token, they're all equipment. You know, stuff like the mega, we did cycles within sets and I started doing the megacy where like in Odyssey, we did this alt-win cycle, and two cards were an Odyssey, and two cards were in torment,

and one card was in judgment. And then we did a mega-mega-cycle where we did this land where the first one was in Mirage, and then every year we made another land, and it was the first set, then the second set, and then the third set, and then the second set, and the first set. Anyway, I played around a lot with sort of form of not just making a card in a vacuum, but making cards interact with other cards, which, of course, then leads to mechanics. You know, and then beyond mechanics, I start worrying about synergy. Like, I don't want to just make mechanics.

Like early magic, for example, the way we used to early magic was, just make two mechanics. Okay, what are the two new mechanics? But then I start saying, you know, why I just want two mechanics, I want some larger synergy. I want some, you know, the idea you move beyond mechanics into theme. Okay, I wanted to be about something. I want my mechanics to connect. And then the next evolution of that is you start to start. getting into the idea of identity.

I want the set to mean something. You know, I'm not just crafting, I'm not just crafting individual cards. I'm not crafting individual mechanics. I'm not crafting individual themes. They all have to come together that I'm making something that's holistic and the idea of making a set

that sort of can be the ultimate of what the set wants to be. And really getting into the idea, you know, like an intrastrade of saying, okay, I'm making a Gothic horror set. and what does that mean and what are my themes and starting getting the idea of how do I master the art of building a set

so that the themes all blend together to make something that is larger than any component piece of it. And then I start connecting the idea of, well, sets, we can go bigger than sets. We can do blocks. How do the sets connect to other sets? How do we make a larger theme that crosses over just between one set? And then you start sort of transcending the idea of just caring about one set

and you start getting into the idea of I want to improve the processes as a whole. I don't just want to improve any one set. I want to improve all sets. And so I want to figure out, I want to make tools and things that help just make magic better. And the idea of really sort of focusing on, not just how do we make any one set the best we can,

but how do we create processes so that all the sets are better? And then I got really into the idea of, well, the key to really making sets better is not just making good process, but making people the best that they can be. And I really got focused in this area that I really care a lot about now is magic is a collaborative process. So if we want to make the best magic we can, it's all about sort of getting the people,

you know, getting the people to be the best they can. And a big part of a lot of the focus I have now is how do you make the best magic is make the best magic designers. And so a lot of focus also is in how do we improve the magic design itself. That's just the design, the designers. But anyway, so one of the through lines here is that kind of what happens over time is you kept stepping back.

You kept wanting to see the bigger picture. And one of the cool things about magic for me is there always was a bigger picture. And I don't know, like right now, I'm so focused on sort of the process and the people and maybe with more time, I go, wait, wait, I can go even farther back, you know. But that's a lot.

And like early on, one of the things that is very big about magic design is everybody who's a magic designer first was a magic player. Just magic is too advanced of a game for you to come in and start designing for it without knowing it. We've actually had, I've had designers who have come into R&D who aren't magic players

and I put them on design teams and what I find is even, I mean, and I'm talking with some really, really good game designers. They just didn't know magic. And the The problem is they just sort of reinvent the wheel, right? Magic has had so many people send a smart time on it. You put a really smart designer on it and they're like, ooh, what if you do thing X? Like, yeah, yeah, we've done thing X.

Ooh, what if you did thing Y? Yeah, yeah, we've done thing Y. And we've kind of so mapped up all the low-hanging fruit that it's hard for someone new that doesn't really know what we've done to, you just kind of do all the work we've done to a certain extent. So what that means is we have found that really the best magic designers are people that start as magic players that really have this intuitive sense of the game. Just because magic is so involved, there's so much complexity and like there's so much depth, there's a lot going on.

So just to be able to design for magic, it's very, very hopeful that you love the game of magic. So what that means is when you first walk in the door and you become a magic designer, you come from the aspect of being a player, right? And so the impulses you have when you first get in the door is just wanting to put your stamp on the game. It's a very powerful thing. And one of the hard things about making magic, there's two things about making magic that I don't think most people are used to doing. One is that it's a collaborative process. Now, there are other collaborative process.

It's possible people who came to work on magic. I mean, there might have been another game companies, for example, where they were being collaborative. But imagine it's collaborative in a way that if you have not interacted in the collaborative process, it's just a very different animal. It's just, you know, the idea that all of you are working together to make the best thing that you as a combined group can make takes a little getting used to. You know, that, for example, before I was a game designer, I was a writer, right? I wrote for television and I did playwriting. I was a writer. And that is the act of making a play is collaborative.

So when I directed my own plays and stuff, and that's very collaborative. That's me working with actors. That is a collaborative thing. So obviously I've done collaborative things. But the act of creation, or at least the creating of the script, the creating of the play, that's very collaborative. But creating the script is not that collaborative.

It was me alone making something. And I talked to people, you know, my mom's a psychologist. I definitely chatted with her. Like, I had a play called Lego My Ego that was all about emotions. You know, I chatted with her to understand sort of, I'm trying to, you know, I'll get expertise where I need expertise. But it's a pretty solitary thing. And even on, like when I was on Roseanne, for example, even then, even though at some

point you're sitting in the room and the whole group is punching up the joke, so very collaborative, you still write the initial script by yourself. So there is just, you know, and like I said, I came from a background that was relatively collaborative. I did plays, which are very collaborative. I worked on TV writing staff, which is very collaborative. And even then, the act of making a collaborative product was still somewhat, in some ways, very new to me.

Because when you're writing a script, you go with your gut and you don't have to convince anybody, you just get to do what you want to do. Not that you don't listen to feedback, you do. But in a magic thing, like, you don't. Like, the group makes the decision. And now, one of the advantages, you know, when I'm leading something, is I have final say, but one of the things I've learned is I really want the best thing. And my gut might not always be right, you know, and I really need to stop and listen and listen

to what the group is saying. And it's not that sometimes the group, I mean, sometimes I disagree with the group. And if I'm leading, the goal is to get the group to where, you know, where I need to sort of add an element because I, but that's the, anyway, the core thing I'm trying to say here is what a collaborative effort is, is the whole group needs to go in the same direction. That if you're fighting each other or going in different directions, you're really not accomplished anything. You're spinning your wheels. So there's a lot of elements to collaborate that the more you work with it, the more you understand it, it changes how you design. And when you first get to Wizards, and this is no strike against new designers, I was there, I went through this.

It's just a process you go through is when you first get there, you are a fan of the game. You're just so excited to put your stamp on the game and you make a card that you think is great and you know what? You want that card printed as soon as it can't. Oh, the other thing, not only is a collaborative process,

it's a delayed process. That's the other thing that's really weird. The idea that I work on something and three years from now, my work will be out there. This time gap is not something, I mean, there is plenty of gap in other fields. You know, I had written scripts and took a while before someone did those, you know.

Like, it's not that there can't be gap elsewhere, but magic has a very specific gap and a little bit longer gap than most people are used to. And trying to work with that gap and then work with the collaborative process, those are really a little bit disorienting when you first get to Wizards. Not in a bad way, but in, you know. And so a lot of designers early on make something awesome. and when you make something awesome, you want to have the audience

see that awesome thing. I made an amazing card, I made an amazing cycle, I made an amazing mechanic, and oh, I... And here's the challenge. What I've learned over time is magic is going to make a lot of cards.

A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of cards. A lot of cards, a lot of mechanics, a lot of themes. The key to making the best magic set is making decisions about what that set is, and what that set wants. And what that means is, there's a lesson I talked about for my screenwriting days, but it's very aprop here,

which is no movie is worth a scene, no scene is worth a line, is the quote from one of my professors. And what that meant is, if you write an amazing scene in your movie, but it doesn't advance the plot, it doesn't help the movie as a whole. It's just a cool scene in a vacuum.

You need to pull that scene. If you have an amazing mind, it's just really piffy and really cool and really fun. If it doesn't advance the scene it's in, it needs to go. So one of the big lessons about art is you have to understand what you're doing and that sometimes you can make things that are really awesome in a vacuum and that awesome thing in a vacuum might not need to be in your thing. And that is hard. That is so hard.

And as a beginning designer, the idea that I make this awesome, amazing magic card, and you tell me, yeah, that doesn't go on the set. That's hard to hear. And you really had this pressure to try to get into the set, because you know it's awesome. And the challenge is sort of learning, like, the thing about magic is, magic is going to keep making cards. I mean, I've learned this 30 years in. Magic's going to keep, and we keep making lots of cards.

There's lots to make. Magic is a hungry monster, is my line. If you have a good idea, I guarantee we will get to it. I guarantee we will get to it. You know, I, you know, I invented energy. I and my team invented energy for Mirrodin. It got cut for Mirrodin. It took me 13 years to find home.

I ended up getting home in Kaladish. But it did. You know, I wanted to get poisoned in magic. That took forever. And there's lots of individual cards. Like, one of the interesting stories was when I first got to Wizards, I was really, really, The color pie was one of my passions. Surprise, surprise.

And so one of the things that I really wanted to do early on was find classic magic cards that I really liked and just get them in the right color. So one of them was there's a card in Alpha called Manaflare. Manaflare is an enchantment, and it makes all your mana tap for one extra of the color that you're tapping for. And that was an awesome card.

I played so much Manaflare. But when I got to Wizard, I'm like, well, Manaflare, the card's in red. That's not really a red ability. It should be a green ability. You know, green is the color all about enhancing. and lands. So I really wanted to make a green,

I wanted to make a green maniflair. And so every set, I would put it in. I'm like, oh, here's the green maniflair, you know, I would, either it was early enough that I'm making the file I've just put it in, or in sets that I was on, I would propose it. Since that I was in development,

when we find holes, I'd stick it in. I would stick that card wherever I could. My goal was, like, magic deserves to have a green maniflair. It's awesome. Let's put it in the right color. we should get it. So the car adventure was called Heartbeat of Spring. I think it was in Champions of Kamagawa.

So I, championship of Kamagawa was, came on 2001. No, no, no, no. 1999. Came out in 1999. So I got a Wizards in 1995. So it took me a couple of years.

Like I put that in every set I could. Every set I could. I mean, it took a couple years to finally get a set. to get that made. And that was kind of a lesson of learning my 10,000 hours of look, here's a cool thing.

Yes, it deserves to be in magic. But look, it's going to get in when it makes sense. There'll be a place where it's the right thing to be and that's where it'll be. And there's a lot of cards like that. There's a card I had called Moose and Squirrel, which was a green 3-3.

I think 3G-3-Mek-a-1-T token. I called it Moose and Squirrel. And I tried to get that card in everywhere. And then eventually somebody who wasn't me put it in a file just because they'd seen it in other files and they go oh that this fits here and they put it in a place where it made sense because it was I think in

Morning Tide where the idea was I think it was I think it was Lauren book. Anyway, the idea was that you wanted to be two different creature types and oh I can make one creature type and then make the token a second creature type. But anyway

there is a lot when you first get to wizards there's a lot of desire to, like you really want to sort of show off what you're capable of and you want to impact. Like, the other thing to remember is magic is very impactful to people who play magic, especially really in franchise players.

You know, magic, before I became my job, you know, magic was my passion, right? I made friends through magic. I had memories through magic. You know, I, I, it, you know, especially down in L.A., like, it was, one of my, one of my core sources of meeting people and of getting to do things. And, you know, magic had a really warm spot in my heart. So when I get hired by Wizards, I'm like, oh my God,

I'm working on magic. Like, that was exciting, right? I'm, I'm now making the game that, like, meant so much to me. And I want it to mean so much to other people. So you pour your heart and soul, you know, and when you first get to Wizards, you have so many ideas, right? I was designing cards before I got to Wizards. The second I get there, I'm like, oh, I have lots of card ideas. Like I remember when I finally convinced him let me do a set in Tempest. I let Mike Elliott and I had been,

both of us had been hired as developers, but we secretly, not secretly, we were pretty loud about it. Both of us very publicly, wanted to be designers. And so when I had the opportunity to choose my design team, I asked for Mike to be on the design team.

So the first day, we actually, for the first week of design, we went down to Portland's day at Richard, Richard Garfield's parents' house, just to sort of get away for the week. And so Mike and I had both, printed up mechanics. And Richard also hadn't designed anything since Arabianite.

So anyway, the three of us all were like, oh, yeah, I have some mechanics. And Mike and I, we spent maybe the first day going through what we had had, and it was pages and pages and pages and pages. Like, Mike and I had designed some cards. Richard had made some, too, but Richard, like Richard was busy doing other stuff. So Richard had some stuff. But Mike and I, like, for years had just been throwing things down on paper. And so, man, that outpouring, the desire to get there.

But what happened with time is, as I started, like, as I worked on more sets and I saw more of what was happening, I started to get a better sense of, like, hey, I wanted to make an impact on magic. But the interesting thing, like, yeah, I can make a card, and a card can have an impact. I've made some very famous cards. I've made some cards to see a lot of play, you know, and that, And I've made some pretty iconic cards that are like, I remember somebody was new to the office, and they were trying to ask me like,

oh, what cards have you made? And I'm like, I've made a lot of cards. And I go, I've made cards so ingrained in the game that you don't even think that a person made them. My example is like naturalized. I was trying to get, I wanted to shift disenchant to green. And so I made natural. I figured I named naturalize.

Because I was just trying to say, I wanted a green be center of artifact destruction, and green couldn't be the best of art destruction if destroying an artifact or enchantment wasn't in green. Because green could do both. And so I'm trying to cancel. I made cancel because the counter spell was too good. So I, in fact, I made it.

I both made and named cancel. So there's early days in magic where I'm trying. So like, there's a point at which we're trying to fix things that we think are like, this is great, but a little too powerful. So there's a lot of stuff like that I did, which are, and my point was I don't think anyone thinks about someone

had to make a cancel now once again on some level look Richard made counter spell I was just fixing counter spell so it's not like

it was a great you know feat but my point is you know I mean and I've made plenty cards that

you know were things that never happened like I made the card flicker for example and urs his destiny that's the first card to flicker things

to exile and bring it back it was inspired by you know I had worked on development for Mara and we had phasing, and I really got into, like, doing different things with phasing.

And one of my favorite things to do with phasing is use it as a protective thing, where, like, oh, I can phase when I'm in trouble so that I can protect myself from things. And that inspired me to make Flickr. In fact, originally in Earth's Destiny, which I was the sole design team, I did a vertical cycle of it.

And actually, Flickr, the one that ended up at rare was the common. But there's a little much, they made it a rare. But the point is, I realized that, look, I can make an individual card, and maybe individual card is impactful, but, okay, now I make Flickr, and that's not really one card, I made a mechanic. I made not even a mechanic, I made an effect. I made something that we can riff on again and again. Or, like, for example, the idea, like, during Ravnika, when I made hybrid mana, like, okay, that's impactful. You know, that wasn't just I made Ravnika better.

That was, I made magic better, right? And that is the big thing about how the more you work on the game, the more you're like, oh, I want to have an impact. You know, making the game better is, you know, like you start to pull back what you can do. And like right now, one of my big beliefs, like one of the things that I'm very proud of is the number of people that have become influential to magic that I got in the door, that I got hired. like one of the things there's this exercise that someone I forget who it was

but they were talking about when you feel down to the dumps and you just feel like I have no impact the one thing they said is to do what they call it's a wonderful life

so for those that don't know it's a wonderful life is a movie starting Jimmy Stewart if you haven't seen it go watch it the basic premise is he's a man that does lots of things and he has a moment of crisis where it looks like things are going horrible

and he really he's worried that that he's going to sort of negative impact all the people he loves around him and so he makes a wish and he says I wish I'd never been born so then there's an angel named Clarence who comes and shows him

what life would be like And the whole idea is, man, you didn't know how many people he touched. And in the world where he didn't exist, all these things were different. You know, he had, I don't want to ruin the movie for you, but like, one of the little tiny things is he saved his brother. His brother fell through the ice when he was a child. And he saved his brother. He ended up going deaf in one ear because of it, you know, but he saved his brother. And then many years later, his brother is in the Navy, I think, and is a hero and saves like a whole ship of people.

And the whole point is, had he not saved his brother, his brother wouldn't save the boat, you know? Or, I get very much about this movie. But also, like, he did all these things to help all these people and all these, you know, without him there. And so one of the things that I think is very impactful is to sort of go to your life and go, it's a wonderful life. Like, what would be like without you there?

And so, like, one of the things I want to think about is if I wasn't here, if I didn't exist, what would magic be like, you know? And the one thing that I'm really proud of is, wow, I had an impact on magic. Not only have they made a lot of things. Now, things I made, would somebody else have made them? Maybe if I didn't make hybrid manna, would someone else make hybrid mana? I think so, probably, at some point, would have figured that out. You know, and I don't know.

You know, like I said, I... But what I realize is the real impact I have... I mean, obviously, I made things, those things are important. I made individual cards. I made mechanics. I mean, all those are impactful. And on some level, you know, maybe I made things other people wouldn't make it. That's quite possible.

But my take on the mechanics is, look, if we make magic long enough, yeah, I made hybrid, but someone would make hybrid eventually. Maybe it would take more time or something. But somebody probably would have got there. Like, it's not, it's not like the idea is so how do you imagine it. Someone had to think it up and had to do it. And fine, you know, and our reality was me. But if I was out of the picture, you know, somebody.

But, but when I think about sort of the people I bought or the process, like, there's things that I definitely did that I don't know what happened had I not been there. And that's the stuff that really is more impactful to me, you know. Like, for example, you know, Aaron Forsyth, who's my boss, Aaron is at Wizards because I sought him out to run the website. That's how Aaron first got to Wizards. And then, you know, he was working on the website, and I thought it would be really cool to get him on a set. I thought he would enjoy it. He could write an article about it, and he turned

out to be amazing at magic design. So we got him in R&D. Where he rose to the rinks. Now he's, you know, the VP of Design and, you know, and Aaron's done all sorts of things to have giant impacts on magic. But would Aaron be in the door? Would Aaron be at magic if I had, you know, and so that's a lot of how I think about sort of nowadays is, um, I want to do things. I want to have as big a swath and influence as I can and that really is how I've changed over time is like people

for example I'm very, very big on people one of the reasons for example we did three great designer searches and from those we found in fact great designers and we've hired lots of people and these are people that have themselves put an indelible mark on the game you know I love training people

I love helping teach people you know I love I love helping people upgrade their skills to become better designers. Another thing for example that I'm a true believer end is just sharing knowledge. Not even just at work.

The reason that I do this podcast or I write articles or do my blog is I think game design as an art form is an amazing thing. And when I was trying to be a game designer, there was nobody telling you how to be a game designer. It just wasn't a thing and so I want to correct that.

So one of my goals goals of my life has been, hey, I want to spread the knowledge as much as I can. Not just within wizards, and I do plenty within wizards, but outside of wizards. You know, like one of the things that's really, really funny to me is because I've spent so much time educating the public that now when we get magic designers, they are already pre, on some level, shaped by me, because there's no way that you become a magic designer and you haven't been influenced by myself that I've written or recorded, you know, that if you want to learn about magic design, you know, that if you want to learn about magic

design, I'm your number one conduit to learn about magic design. So now people walk in the door and some of my education has already happened. I've already, like, you know, now when people walk in the door, because of all the stuff I do, like, everybody's already a step ahead of where it used to be. And so that, you know, that means a lot. So the real question is, how have I changed in 30 years as a designer is I just think I've gotten a lot. I keep trying to raise my scope. I keep trying to have bigger and bigger influences. And my goal is, you know, one day, not soon, but one day I'll retire. And I just want to be, you know, an indemnable force of good.

Indelible. Indelible force of good on magic and magic design. And hopefully, on some level, I want to believe on game design in general. You know, I have a lot of people who work at other companies who meet me and they're very excited to say, look, I got in game design because of you. or you've really much influenced my philosophy or game design or, you know, different variations of that. And that means a lot to me. And so that is how I think I've changed over the years is I just, I started very micro and got very macro.

And just over time has spent more and more time figuring out, like, what are the biggest changes I can make? What are the biggest impacts I can make? And so, anyway, that, my friends, is, how I think I've changed over 30 years. This was a really personal podcast. I hope you guys enjoyed it. It was fun to do. So just a little inside behind the scenes.

I'm almost at work here. Sometimes I outline things, and I have a very meticulous outline of what I'm going to say. And sometimes I just sort of do a... I'm like, ah, I know the topic. I'll just sort of talk off the top of my head. Today was the top of the head. I didn't map it out.

I just sort of said, well, I generally know what I want to say. And so So anyway These kind of podcasts are fun for me Because I don't really quite know where they're going Like if you had said to me Yeah, you're going to really explain the plot It's a Wonderful Life

I don't know I know that was going to happen today But anyway, thank you guys for listening It means a lot Like one of the things that I've learned over the years Is how many people listen to this podcast It is kind of mind-blowing to me How many people listen to this podcast

So it means a lot I hope that I'm spreading pearls of wisdom and I'm helping people in different ways. But if you aren't there a game designer, my note and lesson of today is, I think the key to being the best game designer you can be

is really thinking about what impact you have on the game you are making and sort of pull back. And my big lesson is I have a lot more impact on the game I'm making when I think much more holistically and big picture

than if I'm just focused on getting the one cool thing I did in a moment through. So anyway, guys, I hope you enjoyed today's podcast, but I'm now at work. So we all know what that means. It means an end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. I'll see you all guys next time. Bye-bye.