Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #1332: Video Production

Episode Date: April 17, 2026

For eight years, I was in charge of overseeing final-day video production for the Pro Tour. In this podcast, I talk all about it.

I'm pulling on my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time to another drive to work. So one of the things I do on my podcast from time to time is I talk about some of the things I've done for Magic that weren't game design. Obviously, my major focus has been game design, but over the years I've done a bunch of different things.

So today, I'm going to talk about my time as a video producer. So for those I don't know, I went to school at Boston University where I majored in broadcast and film. I got a BS in communications, believe it or not. So broadcast and film is a fancy way of saying TV and movies. The internet wasn't really a thing yet when I was in school. So I studied communications, specifically studying at the time the two major mediums, which was TV and film.

And so one of the things I had to do, to major in television film is I had to do video production. So, real quickly, the technology is advanced a lot. Basically, TV in the early days was

mostly done on video, which is electronic, and film is chemical. You're shooting on actual film. Now, the digital technology has gotten so good that a lot of people, I mean, some film isn't actually shot in film anymore and shot in digital, but back in the day,

we learned how to basically work with both video and film in school. And so I did actual classes where I went out with a little 8mm film and shot films, but I also did video production. And while I did do some video production out in the field, as they call it, but I did do a lot of video production in the studio. And in fact, I had a class in video production, and the way it would work is each time you would do a video production, but you would take a different role.

Maybe you're doing sound, maybe you're doing the lights, Maybe you're the talent, meaning you're on camera. But at one point, you've got to be the director. And that is, if you've never had a chance to direct a live production, it is quite heart-pumping. So the idea essentially is there are a bunch of different cameras, three, four cameras you'd pick them on the setup. And then there is people that are doing graphics,

and there's a bunch of people doing things. And you, the director, are calling everything in the moment. sometimes this would be for live television, sometimes it's shot live, meaning even though it's live in the moment you tape it and show it later. Late night shows tend to work that way. But anyway, I had an opportunity to do video production. So I actually had some training in video production. So when I first took my job at Wizards, I'm like, well, I studied communications.

Maybe some of that will be relevant, but most of it probably won't be. And what I learned over the years is almost all of it. Even my video production ended up becoming. becoming valuable. So that's what we're talking about today is my time is a video producer while working on magic. So when I first got to Wizards back in 1995, Skaf Elias, who was one of the original East Coast, one of the original playtefters, part of what we call the East Coast playtifters designed antiquities and ice age and alliances and fallen empires. Scaf was, Scaf had an idea that part of getting people invested in playing magic.

was to have a high level of play that people go to spider to. And so he created the ProTor. So before I came to Wizards, one of the things I did was I used to write a puzzle column in the duelist called Magic the Puzzling. In order to do the puzzles, they wanted me to use the latest cards, meaning they wanted me to make puzzles of the latest things that were out. So in order to do that, I needed to see the cards ahead at time. And in order to build a puzzle, I needed to see all the cards because I had to build the puzzle.

so I needed to have access to everything to figure out what I was building. Anyway, what that meant was I got, we'd call them Godbooks, but I used to get, they'd mail me all the upcoming set. And I'd get a chance to see it for anybody else got a chance to see, which was very exciting. But one of the side effects of that was I was not allowed to play and sanctioned play because I knew the cards. So what happened was when I lived in down in Los Angeles before I moved up to Seattle,

I used to do a lot, I used to help run tournaments. So I was very involved in the running of tournament. So when I got to Wizards and Scaff was like, oh, we're planning to do a pro tour, I was very excited to be involved. So I volunteered. I ended up being the R&D liaison to the pro tour. And I was sort of Scaff's right-hand man

and helped him in putting things together. And I was very, very involved, especially for the first eight years. The first eight years of the pro tour, I went to every pro tour. Save one when Rachel was born. But I went to every pro tour. And then when my twins were born,

I decided I need to do less traveling, so I stopped coming to the pro tour. But during my time at the pro tour, so basically the pro tour usually was three days. It was a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, usually. So on Friday and Saturday, I would do the feature matches. And I've done podcasts on the feature matches. They were one of the things I was most responsible for

at the pro tour. And so I would pick who was playing who, and I would judge the feature match area. But on the fly, final day on Sunday when the finals happened. So back in the day, nowadays we stream the whole time. But back in the day, the only time we actually shot on camera was on the final day. We'd have the quarterfinals, the semifinals, and the finals.

We'd be top eight. So I was in charge of overseeing the video production. That's why I was a video producer. So here was my responsibilities for the eight years that I did it. So first and foremost, At the end of the second day, when we called the top eight, I would get the top eight after we called them, we'd say, you need to stick by, so I would then talk to them.

And there's a couple things we would do. One is they would fill out a sheet with information. That information allowed us to know where they're staying, a contact number. We had a few incidents where people didn't show up on time. And I asked a bunch of things about them, biographical information. They would name their deck.

They would talk about where they're from, what city, what country, and I would just ask a few things to just get some flavor on the next day when we were doing coverage. And then I would walk through kind of the rules. Now, I did video coverage a while ago. So some of the things I talked about, for example, might not still be true. Like, one of the things that was true back in the day

that is no longer true now is you couldn't have card sleeves on your cards. The lights, the cameras couldn't handle the light reflections. You couldn't see the cards. they would reflect the lights and then you couldn't see what... Basically, when we play magic, there is a bunch of cameras around the room, usually three, and then there's one camera

known as the gym, which is up above, that's shooting the table from up above. And that was important to showing a match because you had to see the match from up above. So anyway, at the time, you couldn't play with sleeves

because it reflect the light. Now, the cameras are a lot better. That's no longer an issue. But anyway, there's a lot of little things about how it worked. This was also the time that we introduced, or early in the pro tour career while I was there, we introduced the play mat, the red zone, if you're, for, and part of what we wanted is we wanted people to always play in the same area, so the audience could more easily understand what they're watching. So we put the library in the graveyard and set places, and when you attacked, you went into the red zones and stuff like that.

And I was very involved with like making the match and stuff like that. So anyway, I would do a lot of prep on the night before. But really, the vast majority of my work was on the day itself on Sunday. So I had a bunch of responsibility. So first, let me talk a little bit about the video production of making a pro-tore event. And once again, I'm talking about many years ago. I think most of what I'm saying is still true. There's some technical things that are slightly different,

but most of what I'm talking about is still true. So the idea is you have a director. Our director, for the eight years that I worked on the pro tour, our director was named Bruce. We had the same director. With one or two exceptions, when we went overseas, we would have a different person. The team that we normally had to do the pro tours did all the domestic protours. But the international protours were, I don't think, I don't think Bruce. Bruce might have done some of the later ones.

But anyway, so the thing is, Bruce was a very good director. He had done a lot of video productions, but Bruce did not know magic, especially when he started. And so my job, well, sorry, sorry. So Bruce exists. He's the director.

There is people, they're cameramen. I think there was, there's someone, or probably two people doing the jib, and then I think there were three other cameras. It might have varied. Maybe there was as few as two, maybe it was four.

My memory is that there were three. And then there are also, like there's somebody that's doing, we call the Chiron or the CGI. Like the person who's doing graphics and like putting people's names up and keeping the score. And then there's a few other roles of there. Video production has a lot of different component pieces. There's someone doing audio, for example.

Audio is its own thing. And so the director has to oversee all those things. You know, there's a lot of stuff going on when you make a video production. So the thing I would do was I was kind of what we'd call the team. technical advisor. And the issue is Bruce knew video production, but he didn't know magic. And one of the tricky things about shooting a magic game is that it's not always obvious what is going on. You can have boards where there's nothing on the board but a dramatic moment is happening. Or you can have boards, there's lots of things on the board, but nothing really important is

happening. You know, that understanding when something dynamic is going on can be very difficult if you're not very clued into how magic functioned, like the specifics of the game and the cards. So my job was, well, a couple of things. First and foremost, I guess, I asked just to mention, we had to have commentators. When you do commentating, there's, normally you have two commentators, what we call a play-by-play and what we call a color commentator.

A play-by-play means that they're describing what is going on, and they're making sure the audience understands just the nature of what's happening. And then you have a color commentator. The color commentator traditionally is someone who in sports used to participate in the sport. And for us, back in the day, my color commentator was somebody who had played in that pro tour who did not make the finals. And in the early days, I used to rotate. Like, I used to have a different color commentator every time. And then I started realizing, oh, it's much, much better to have regular people who learn how to do it and get better at.

it. So I started having actual teams. And I'll talk about some of them in a second. In the early days, also, I did play-by-play in the very early pro tour and then became clear that there were people better than me to do play-by-play. And also, it was hard for me to do play-by-play and do all my video production stuff. Because part of what's going on is, as we're shooting, I'm talking with the director and I'm filling him in on information. Oh, well, guess what? The game's about to end. Here's what you want to focus on. Look at this player's hand, they're about an attack for lethal, whatever it is. I'm explaining him what's going on so he can understand how he visually wants to film it. But I need to tell him, oh, this is about to happen,

this is the dramatic moment, you need to capture that. So I would sort of fill Bruce in. And not only did I pick the commentators, I also would be in the booth with the commentators, and I would be feeding them information, meaning if there's something they needed to know, I would feed them information from the booth or from the floor. We'll get to the floor in a second. And also, I had a lot of knowledge about the porthors because that's what I was doing. So I also would take a lot of notes, and I'd make little notes I'd pass to my commentator saying, oh, here's a factoid or here's little things you might not know.

I would share the sheets they filled over the night before so they could look at that night before so they could find facts they wanted to do. As I'll talk about it a little bit, one of the big things about doing commentary has to do with making the story, but I'll get to that. Okay, let me finish my setup. So, Bruce is in the booth. He's talking to me. On the floor, there's what they call a stage manager,

which is somebody who talks to the director who's in charge of making sure everybody on the floor is doing what needs to be doing. And I had something that I called the spotter. The point of the spotter, and the spotter was always a magic person. Scott Johns did it for a while. Scott Larerby did it for a while.

I had a bunch of different spotters. The idea of the spotter is, I need somebody on the ground. that understands magic that I can ask questions of. Because one of the things that I'm determining as the producer is I determine where we go when. Meaning, I'm the one that figures out what state the games are in and where we want to go. So normally what would happen is I would show up in the morning, we would look at the quarterfinal matches, and I would have a priority order for the quarterfinal matches.

For example, I would always pick the match we would start with. I'm like, oh, this is the most exciting matches. It's the match people most want to see. We're going to start there. And then we would move around. One of my goals is I'd like to show every match if possible. In the quarters where there were four matches, I almost always got to show two. I most often got to show three.

If I was lucky, I got to show four. The biggest problem with that is once... The thing we learned early on is you don't want to leave a game while games is in progress. We experimented early on of like, oh, this is kind of stalled out. Let's go do another game. The audience pretty much wanted once you started a game, you could come in a game mid-game, but once you started in a game,

they really want to see the completion of the game. Going away before the game completed, every once in the blue moon, if it was that true, true stalemate, and nothing was going to happen, and if there was another game that was going to end quickly, I'm not saying we never left a game in progress, but we most often did not leave the game in progress.

So what would happen is once a match finished, if I didn't get there, then we didn't see them. But the goal was, I would want to track what was going on, my spotter was to fill in what's happening in other games. There's a judge at each game. The judge is responsible for keeping the score. So my spotter could go and talk to the judge.

The judge at each table could show them the score. And then I can sort of check on things what's going on. The other thing my spotter could do, well, one of the important things the spotter did is the spotter conveyed to the Kairon guy, the person doing the online scores, the scores that are putting up, he would communicate to him. So whenever the score would change, he would communicate to him. the score has changed so it could be updated. And whenever,

if there's anything that we were unsure of, like, let's say my commentators were talking about something. Like, let's say they wanted to see a hand. You know, one of my commentators would go, wow, it would be really great if we could see the hand. Blah, blah, blah. Now, sometimes they say it aloud and Bruce got it. But the thing is, they can only see what's on camera.

One of the things I can do is I can then go to Bruce and go, oh, we need to see the hand. And sometimes they'd be talking about something, and I understood, oh, he's about to draw something, go show the hand. Like, I understand the context a little better than Bruce would. So my job was, one of my jobs, was as the game was evolving,

I made sure that Bruce was aware of what was happening in the context of the game. And then, when we were going to move games, I made it very clear where we were going to go. And I would use my spotter to help have that information. The spotter also did things like, let's say I need to see a hand. and the camera wasn't in his position to show me the hand.

I could say to my spotter, and my spotter could step away from the table and whisper so they couldn't hear him. I could say, okay, look at John's hand. Does he have, you know, disenchanted his hand, whatever it was that mattered. And they can go, and they go, yes, he does, or no, he doesn't. And I could feed that, I could write notes and feed it to my, I could feed it. Because for most of the time, we were in a booth, a sound booth, early magic, We did different things over the years.

There was a period we were in front of the audience. But anyway, so we were mostly in a soundproof booth. And so I would pass notes in. They could talk to the audience. The audience's reaction couldn't be seen by the players. And so we could let the players – sorry, we could let the audience in on things that the players didn't know because the players couldn't hear the commentators

and the players couldn't hear the audience. There's some famous examples that's not true. But for the most point, that was true. Okay, so I would show up. I'd figure out, I'd get everybody in position and make sure people understood all the rules of what they needed to do. I would talk to Bruce and make sure he understood the play,

the order of play we wanted. Usually I would pick an order that we would go by default. This is our number one, this is our number two. And what that meant is, if, barring other circumstances, two is the one I most likely want to go to. But maybe two is true. dragging out game one and three is already in game two.

So I might go, oh, okay, let's go to match three because if I don't, if I wait, it might be over before we get there. And then I would work with the commentators in the booth to make sure that they had all the information they needed and that any conduit that had to go between the booth and us or the floor on us, I was the person who did that. Okay, so let's get to kind of the, how to make a cool progress, a cool, podcast. So the thing that is important, A, having the right people was really important. Like I said, in the early days, I would jump around a bit. What I eventually learned was what

you really want to do is just get a play-by-play and a color that know their stuff that are good, they get practice at it, and they just get better. The more you do it, the more practice you get, and the more you learn the nature of how things work. So my two favorite pairings that I had while I was running things. My early pairings that I enjoyed most was Brian Weissman on play-by-play and Chris Bacula on color. And then the later one that I had in my reign was Randy Bueller on play-by-play and Brian David, I'm sorry, Brian Dayton Marshall on play-by-play and Randy Bueller on color. And both of those teams were really good. There's been lots of other good teams. I'm not, I'm just talking about when I did it, the people I worked with specifically.

Oh, so the idea of having a good, what you want to have is you want to be, you want to have what we call a narrative. And what that means is people respond to stories. And so what is this match about? Obviously, they want to advance to the next thing. And there always is that. That always is, okay, part of it is the winner gets to go forward in the tournament. And the finals, the winner wins the tournament.

So there always is that. And part of the story is will they win this tournament? And there are a little sub-stories about that. But the cool thing is in any one match, what is this match about? Not necessarily just, oh, the winner advances, that's important. And there was a couple of different ways to build the narrative. One way was to build the narrative off the players. Maybe, for example, these are two players that have a history.

Maybe they had met before in another famous match. Maybe they're on the same team. Maybe they interest me, don't like each other. Like, whatever it is, maybe there's something about the personalities. Maybe one of them's quiet and one of them's loud. Like maybe they represent different styles. Maybe they're from different countries. Like, whatever it is, you're finding something that you can sort of angle your story around.

The other big thing you can angle the story around was their decks. Oh, well, maybe this is about, you know, these are the two most prominent decks and they're facing off against each other. Or this is control versus agro. Like, you could, you also could take the decks and sort of talk about, like, the decks represent something. So I like people, whenever we could, having our narrative be about the people was the most compelling to me. people respond the best of people. But sometimes there just wasn't a really compelling sort of person narrative, and then you could do deck narratives.

Sometimes, by the way, there were larger narratives that were kind of bigger than people. Maybe they're representatives of two teams, you know, maybe the representatives of two countries. So there's different things you could do. So you can kind of go in personal, you could pull back about the person's role in a larger sort of context, or you could talk about the deck. So those are the most common. And every once in a while, you would get a different kind. I can remember, so in 2000 at Brussels, World Championship in Brussels, Belgium,

I forget whether it was the quarterfinal or semifinal, but John Finkel is playing Darwin Castle. And I wanted to say it was the quarters, but it could have been semi. Anyway, what we realize is that these people are the two people in the front spot for the Player of the Year award. The Player of the Year is based on a full year magic and it ends at the World Championship. So what we realize is whoever won this match

was going to win Pro Player of the Year. Yes, they would also advance. So yes, that was part of it. It wasn't like, they still wanted to win to win the tournament. But all of a sudden, the match was about who wins Pro Player of the Year? Like there was something on stake immediate for this event, for this match.

This match is about who becomes Pro Player of the Year. And that's really cool because the story we're telling resolves right here. Now, you don't always get that. You know, that is, it's very, it's awesome when that happens when things land up like that. You don't always get that lucky. A lot of times, you know, you're working to build your narrative. You know, like sometimes the narrative is given to you on a silver platter. I talked about this during Kai's podcast, but Kai Buda and John Finkel end up in, I think it's a semifinal match in one of the ProCore Chicago's.

I think it's the second one that, I think it's the second one that Kai won. But anyway, they had never met in a top eight match before. And many, you know, consider Kai and John to be the two greatest match, you know, pro-matchel players of all time. So the excitement for that match was just palpable. You'm saying? So I don't, I mean, and that's one of the few matches where I said, we're going to start this match, we're going to watch this match. We're not leaving until this match is over. We might not see other matches.

That is okay. And the reason is, this is what everybody wants to see. this is what we're going to show them. And that's the kind of thing where, look, you can't, you can't script that. You know, I mean, we didn't know it's the one and only. But the one and only time, the best two magic players of all time face off each other

in the top eight final, okay, you know, that writes itself. And sometimes you're really working hard and figuring it out, but one of my jobs as a producer is I would work with my commentators to sort of help figure out what our narrative was. And I had a lot of information, so, like, I would, because I knew the

matches the night before, I would spend time at night sort of walking through like what the possible angles are and I would talk through with my people the next day to say, you know, here's different angles we can take, what do you like, what narrative do you enjoy? But the more you can make the match about something. So I'm going to give an example of my favorite, my favorite commentating match moment of all time, just because it was a really exciting moment. And my commentators, I was Brian Weissman and Chris Bacula. So this was at U.S. National.

I'm blinking on the year of U.S. nationals. It was 96, 97, 98. Not 96. It must have been 98 is my guess. My guess is it was 98. I might be off by year. So anyway, Mike Long, who many people might know as the bad boy of the pro tour, somebody who was up to no good and was probably the number of,

villain of the pro tour. And so he goes undefeated, or he's going undefeated in the Swiss at US Nationals. And in the final match, there's a card on the floor and a judge gets called over, who, by the way, was me. And so we end up giving him game loss. A lot of players thought he was up to something. They won him kicked out of the tournament, you know, following the rules at the time. And he did get a game loss, which was a pretty severe penalty. But it did not warrant kicking him out of the tournament.

But anyway, he goes in the top eight. Everybody, nobody wants Mike Long to win other than Mike Long. Nobody wants Mike to win, right? He's the villain. And so everybody's there to sort of root against him. So it gets down to the finals. And he's playing out a kid named Matt Lindy. and Matt Lindy

at the time was like 16 or 17 Matt Lindy would go on to be a good pro player he had other top eights but this was his first kind of thing so even though that he was known to some of the players if he wasn't out of the blue

but he was young this was his first top eight and so the narrative is okay who's going to win the U.S. National Championship the brand new you know the rookie

Matt Lindy the kid or Mike Lawn and, you know, people did not want Mike Long to be the U.S. National Champion. So there's this really palpable thing. And so one of the things that happens, and I don't remember this is game four or five, but there's a point in which Mike Long is going to win the game and the tournament. The game, the match, and the tournament. Mike Long is playing a deck called Prosperous Bloom, which is a combo deck.

And so Mike needs to get the pieces together, and once he gets together, going to win the game. So Mike gets the pieces together, but he has to let his guard down to one turn. Like he doesn't have what he can do to go off, so he has to let Matt Lindy take a turn.

And the issue is that Matt Lindy, if he has a particular card in his deck, which is called a Bance, if Matt Lindy has a Bance and is able to cast a Bance and he knows to cast it at this turn, he would stop Mike and he would keep Mike from

winning. So there's just this moment in which, oh no, everything's at stake. The game is about to end. Mike Long has the pieces. He's going to win the game. But wait, there's one chance. If Matt Lindy is able to have this card

and know to play at this moment, he stops Mike. And one of the things that Brian and Chris had done is all of them under, they understood the nature of what's happening. They recognize that Mike was about to go off. They recognized that Matt needed to have abeyance

and so they're setting this all up they do an excellent job of explaining to the audience here's the dynamic of what's going on Mike is about to win but Mike has to let his guard down for one turn and in that turn there is a card in Matt Lindy's deck

that if Matt Lindy has in his hand and knows to play he will stop Mike and once again so I'm in the producer I'm like okay Matt Lindy's about to draw a card what this card is matters you need to show him to draw this card.

And so when he drew it and it was the abeyance, so this was a point in time where the commentators were in front of the audience. Later we'd be in the soundproof booth, but this is earlier in magic history. So we're in front of the audience. And there's a huge audience and everybody's there.

Mike Long and Matt Lindy, the production was at the opposite end of the hall, which is like three football fields away. So just to get the helpful of this situation, When Matt Luling draws the abeyance, you could hear the audience screaming. Like, Mike realized he had the abeyance because they were so loud that they heard him three football fields away.

Now, it turns out, Mike knowing it didn't change anything. And the real big, so the big question was, did Matt know that right now we needed to play the card? Now, it turns out he did, that's a very good player. And so he drew it. He understood he needed to do it. He did it. He stopped Mike. He goes on to win the tournament.

And it was everything that I like in a good broadcast, which was there was something interesting going on. The commentators did a good job of making sure everybody was aboard and understood. There was a cool narrative happening. And then there was this dramatic moment, like there's a sort of a climax moment. We're like, something comes. And it was, there's been a lot of really fun magic. So most of what we, most of what we, most of.

Most of our finals are, you can go watch them. They exist. Not everything, we're missing one or two things, but most things are there. And it's really, watching live magic is super fun. I mean, obviously, you can stream now and watch the pro tours, and that's great. But it was, like, one of the things in my mind that I always enjoyed as a video producer was I'm putting on a show. Much like when I'm a lead designer on a set, I'm trying to make a set that makes, I'm trying to make the most exciting set possible.

I'm trying to use all the tools available to make an exciting magic set. Video production is the same thing. I'm trying to use all the tools available to make the most exciting video match. And obviously, I'm working with a lot of people. It is not a solo endeavor. You know, I have Bruce, the director, and I have all the crew people. And there's, you know, 15 people. There's a lot of people on the crew.

I have my commentators. I have my spotter. You know, there's a lot of people that are working to make that happen. and it is not remotely a solo endeavor. But it's really fun. I really enjoyed, like I said, that one of the neat things about my time on magic is that I've gotten a chance to design magic cards

and lead magic sets and do all that. But there's other things I've gotten a chance to do. And that's one of the cool things in my experience at Wizards is, like, I actually had a chance to be a video producer, and I did it for quite a while, and it was super fun. We even shot some stuff for... We were on ESPN2 in the early years, and there's some times where I got to go into the booth.

I flyed in New York and we'd edit a show. And I was the culture, I was the technical advisor because the main person who was doing it didn't know magic that well. So I was there to make sure that the magic part was what we needed to do. And we'd bring in, I used it at the time, Brian and Chris, they'd do commentary.

Like, they would do, there was live commentary then we'd record stuff after the fact because sometimes we needed them to say specific things or do throw-ins and throw-ins and stuff. But anyway, that's I I'm trying to think of something to talk about today. Like I said, when you're 1300 podcasts in, just trying to find stuff you have not talked about.

And I realized that I talked about my feature matches. So if you wanted to talk about me running feature matches or how feature matches started and, you know, how my very first pitch of the idea to them being an ongoing thing, I've done a whole podcast on that. In fact, I might have done two podcasts on that. But I'd never realized I'd never done my video product. before. So it was a lot of fun. Oh, also, another related video is after the first pro tour,

they made a video, and then they asked me to direct it after the fact, which is not how the way, not how he's supposed to direct a video. And that is a true story of chaos. So that's also a podcast you can listen to about PT1. So anyway, and I have infinite, not infinite, I have a bunch of Pro Tour podcast. If you want to hear more about different stories at the Pro Tour, I have some fun stories with just different things that happened and different things that I did. And some of those stories involve

me in my role of running the future matches or being the video producer. All those exist. If you want to hear more about the Pro Tour, I've talked much about the pro tour. But I am now at work. So we all know what that means. It means it's the end of my drive to work. So instead of

talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. Hope you enjoyed today's podcast. and I'll see you next time.