Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #1334: Identity

Episode Date: April 24, 2026

In this episode, I talk about the role games can play in a person's identity and how that affects our approach to designing Magic.

I'm pulling out of the driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for the drive to work. Okay, so today's topic is a complex topic, but an important one. Today I'm going to talk about the concept of identity. So one of the questions I get all the time is what makes magic such a great game? So I want to talk about a really important part of it today. I'm going to dig deep into some psychology.

So today is an interesting topic, something that fascinates me that hopefully all of you enjoy. Okay, so one of the things is when you are growing, when you are growing up, one of the things that you really desire is you want a sense of who you are and where you belong and, you know, it's what it calls a sense of identity. You need a sense of identity. And normally what happens is the way that people sort of create their identity is they find things around them that speak to them. And usually what that means is those things hit the note of something that's important to them. And usually it has to do a lot with where they're at, what else is going on with life, and like what is important to them. So I will use myself as an example. So growing up when I was little, I got teased a lot.

I got bullied. And something like, it's interesting because I have kids now. Nowadays, they do a lot. Like, the amount of bullying that happened in my childhood is not even remotely allowable right now. You know, I would just have people who would, like, chase me around on the playground at the recess, and if they caught me, they would just start hitting me.

And I would have to evade them. them because I didn't want to get hit by them. That's not something my children would have ever faced. But anyway, I definitely, I mean, I had a very loving family. So one of my big issues was there's a sense of vulnerability I had. I got beat up, right? And so what did I flock to? What was the pop culture?

What was the thing that in my youth really spoke to me as a person? And the answer was comic books, superheroes. It was sort of like I felt very powerless. I felt, you know, and that it was important to me the idea that, you know, there are, the idea of super part individuals really spoke to me that I wanted a sense, two things. One is this the idea that there's something you could do to stop injustice or something. And the second thing, the idea that there's this internal sense of right is a big part of comic books that I really connected to. But the idea was I found something that was offsetting something I needed, right? That I definitely felt this sense of powerlessness and I felt the sense of helplessness.

And so I sought out something that made me feel more empowered, that made me feel like that what was happening to me was wrong and that, you know, it should be adjusted. Anyway, my point is I was at a point where I needed something, you know, psychologically. I needed something, and I gravitated towards something that psychologically gave me the thing that I needed. And that's the key sense of identity is that depending on your situation, everybody's situation is different. I mean, the reality is everyone's childhood is difficult in their own way, that there's something they need they do not have, something they want, they can't get, you know,

different people will have different issues, whatever your childhood. There's no such things in childhood in which everything went perfectly. There's always something, whether you know, whether you're lonely, whether you're, I mean, there's just lots of different issues. And what happens is that you find something that just speaks to you in a way that's kind of core to your essence. That's like, oh, something about this really addresses something about me. And that I, as a person, think of it this way.

When you get a laptop or you get a thermos or whatever, you get something that you carry around with you. There's a desire to put stickers on it. Why? Why do you need to put stickers on it? And the answer is that you want to sort of personalize it. You want to make it such that it represents who you are, that if someone sees your computer or your thermos or whatever and they see the things you put on it, it speaks to who you. you are. A similar thing is I'm really into t-shirts and I'm very peculiar in my t-shirts that I want the t-shirts to represent things I care about. And these are all, these are all

expressions of the same thing in the sense of identity, right? That I want, I want to feel like I, the individual, I'm about something, that something represents me and that these things that you connect to psychologically become really important to who you are as a person, that they speak to your sense of identity. And that by picking and choosing things, you start to form what your identity is. That these things that exist that I collect and I connect to start shaping and showing people who I am. And the sense of identity is a really, really, like, from a psychological standpoint, like an

absolute. Like part of becoming a person, part of growing up is shaping and figuring out your own identity. It's a big part of, I'm just growing in general, of adolescence, it's a big part of, okay, so why am I explaining all this? The reason I'm explaining a sense of identity is it is something that is core to human nature. It is core to how people function. Okay, so let's get back to the magic, actually a podcast about magic. So one of magic strengths is that it is very flexible and adaptable, meaning most games, and I've talked about this, most games when you play them, they sort of spell out what they are.

I'm this. And then maybe that game adapts to your identity because something about the game speaks to you. And I think the games that you like most are games that somehow, much like the pop culture, you know, like there's things that you choose and you enjoy because something deep about them hits upon something that just makes you feel good. Now, I mean, part of it might be, I mean, I'm trying to get really deep in the psychology. I mean, part of it is you enjoy it. Part of it is it's a fun game.

It's a fun TV show. There is a little bit of enjoyment to it. But there's something that goes a little bit deeper. There's something that there's something about it that sort of satisfies you. The reason I'm really into comic books, A, I enjoy them. They're well written. It's not like I don't enjoy, you know, they're good storytelling there. Or, you know, within comic books.

They're good and bad comic books, obviously. But there are, there's the opportunity for. a great story town. I've read amazing stories through comics. But it's not just that, that there's something inherent to the essence. There's something that speaks to me personally that makes me really enjoy it.

And so magic and its adaptability, one of the strengths of the game is that you the player have a lot more realm of what the game is than the average game. If I buy

monopoly or scrabble or pick the game. Like, what the game is is kind of defined by the game in a pretty strong way. Scrabble is Scrabble. You know, maybe there's some variance to Scrabble, you know. It's not that you can't personalize a little bit, but, you know, you can play Monopoly and make up your own house rules. I mean, there's some customization of games that happens. But there are some games, what we refer to is lifestyle games.

Magic, obviously, is one of these, Dungeon Dragons. There's different war games. The idea is it's something in which the game is so big that you, the player, that Richard liked to call it bigger than the box. What it meant is the game is more pieces than you, the player, are going to access. And so you choose which pieces you access. And that is very powerful and very potent, right? That here's a game and you, the player of the game,

are given immense power to determine what the game is. And in Magic, for example, I mean, I talk about Magic is almost a game system, right? How do you want to play? Do you like the social game of Commander? Do you like thinking on your feet of booster draft? Do you like, you know, playing powerful cards of old and vintage? Like what you want or what you represent, you can choose and control. that you control the format you're playing,

you control the cards you're playing with, and you also have a lot of say in the kind, you know, for example, you know, a lot of these combine it have to do with like power level or have to do with how old the cards are. And so the idea, anyway, the important part here is one of magic strengths is it is very good at crafting itself to your identity.

And on top of that, Magic just does like the whole idea behind the psychographics So Timmy Tammy, Johnny, Jenny and Spike is each of those says, oh, magic can provide this thing for you that is something that is just a human

thing that helps you. For example, I'm a Johnny, right? That when I started playing magic, the thing that magic really spoke to me was my ability to show off something about myself. I'm a creative individual. You know, I, the thing that I

loved about magic was it let me say something about me and show that to other people. And like I said, the whole idea behind the psychographics is that what is the psychological need you have? How can magic provide that psychological need? And because magic has such flexibility, it does a lot. There's a lot of different ways for you to enjoy it in a way that's satisfied. And that is really potent. Like one of the things, when you look at average play, I don't remember what it is right now, but last time I looked like the average person who played magic,

the average player was over 10 years. That, I mean, there's few games in existence that have that. Partly because a lot of games don't last that long, like video games, there's only so long the game lasts before you're on to the next video game. But even of like tabletop games, there's not that many games that people play continuously for 10-plus years.

Now, Magic has a bunch of things going for. One is its adaptability. We'll get that in a second. Meaning that you don't get bored of it because it keeps change. That's an important, relevant, why people keep playing. But I think a big part of it is the idea of lifestyle gaming is that there are games that become part of your lifestyle. They become part of your identity. And that part of the reason the game is so much impact, like,

Once you sort of elevate something from sort of something you enjoy to something your identity, that's kind of like the next stage, right? It's not just something I enjoy. It's something I enjoy so much that I want to express to other people who I am through that thing. And that one of the things that's really interesting about, pick whatever, entertainment, games, you know, is that one of the neat things is that it allows you to find people like yourself. If I enjoy Thing X and I find other people that enjoy Thing X, there's a common bond. You know, if Thing X speaks to my identity and speaks to your identity, look, at least in some part of who we are, we overlap somewhat, right?

At least it greatly increases the chance that that is true. One of the reasons, like they talk a lot about how to make friends, right, is go do things you enjoy and you will meet people that enjoy those same things. And then you just increase the chance that you let, you know, if you like thing X, then maybe you like thing Y and thing Z. And that magic, for example, a lot of, like, one of the things that's really interesting is, I've talked about this. I did a thing one time when I said to people, I want to write an article about what positive effects magic's had in your life.

Write in articles about how magic is made your life better. And I got inundated with emails. In fact, my normal article is 3,000. words, it ended up being 8,000 words. And I mean, I just used a fraction of the letters I got. But the interesting thing is I read through the letters is there are a lot of people that were talking about how magic helped them do something that they needed to do, but they didn't know how to do or weren't able to do.

And whether that is like they were able to socialize, they were able to express themselves, they were able to, you know, maybe harness their mind or shape things. One of the things about games that is really powerful is that games allow you a way to test real life skills in the safe environment. Right? That, you know, it's hard in the real world to test things because if they go wrong, you know, if I'm at work and I make a crucial mistake, that could have big ramifications. I can get fired. All sorts of things could happen. But in the game, like, nothing can go that wrong.

I lose the game. Like, the consequences are very low. And so it allows you the opportunity to sort of test things and learn things in a safe environment. And so there's a lot about magic, like I said, the magic becomes a big part of a lot. I mean, not everybody. Magic means different things of different people. To some people, magic might be a game. They play every once in a while.

To other people, it's a lifestyle game, meaning it's a core to their identity. that who I am is somewhat shaped by the fact that I play magic. Who am I? I'm a magic player. Who am I? I'm a commander player. I'm a pauper player. I'm a drafter. And there's subdivision within those categories. But I define who I am through the things that help me identify who I am. And so magic, that's one of the powerful things about magic is because it is flexible,

because it allows you the player so much ability to shape how you play it and what it is, it is very, very good at latching onto identity. And that one of the reasons that magic I think is so powerful is, like a lot of things is when you look back at your life, you will think of the things that helped you. And a lot of times the things that helped you are the things that just, allowed you to do things you needed to do, but you weren't able to do them at the time.

That they helped guide you at a point when you need guidance. And that's another, I guess I should get into this, is when you are at your lowest, you kind of remember the things that helped you. Whether that's people, whether that's, like, you know, I, I remember, like when I look back in my life and I think of things that were very impactful,

including people, was just there's something about something helping you when you're at your low point. It's a very vulnerable place to be. It's a very, you know, and everybody, once again, everybody has a low point. This idea that so-and-so has a charmed life

so they never know, you know, they've never had anything go wrong in the life. Everybody has things that they want that they can't have. and I think an important part of sort of crafting your identity is picking and choosing what matters and why it matters. And so, anyway, the idea essentially here is that I think for a lot of people, especially in franchise magic players, there are plenty of casual people that magic is just one of many things they do, maybe they play every once in a while, and that it doesn't quite have the identity.

but if magic is one of the things that you do, the circles you travel in, the things you, you know, if magic is part of your identity, it's a different being. And when I talk to the enfranchised players, pretty much part of being in franchise is making a conscious decision

that magic is part of your identity. It's not your only identity. You have other things. And even then, what parts of magic you choose to make part of your identity itself is pretty important. Like some people, you know, art is a very important part. Some people, you know, like I talk about like Vorthos or Mel,

which have more do with aesthetic profiles, but even then, the things, whatever it is about magic that sort of helps craft what your identity is, that makes magic what you are, that is important. Now, let's get into the larger issue is another thing about magic. So one of magic's things is magic is really good at crafting and becoming part of your identity. And like I said, for people who want to be, not everybody. Another thing that magic does that is very potent and powerful is that is constantly adapting, right? That magic, like, we keep putting out new cards. Like, one of the reasons people play for as long as they do is you don't get bored because magic is constantly evolving.

And in an interesting twist of fate, magic tends to evolve toward what the player base as a whole wants. So if you look at like the evolution of commander, I think the player base as a whole wanted a more casual game, wanted a more social game. And so magic kind of started shifting in that direction. That it wasn't a conscious decision of any one person, but it was a conscious decision of kind of the combination of people. And again, I think that's the strength of magic. like magic kind of becomes what the players want it to be. But here's one of the challenges is that magic's evolution is not based on you the person, it is based on sort of the group of players.

And that everybody crafts, there's something about magic that people craft around that becomes part of their identity. And the other thing is, what you care about can change over time. Your identity evolves as you grow, you know, the things that defined you as a kid or as a teenager or as a young adult, like those things change. Some of them are through lines. You know, as a kid,

comic books were very important to me. As an adult, comic books are very important to me. That has been a constant. But there's other things that matter to me when I was a kid that don't really matter to me now, that at one point we're really big, that now just don't hold the weight, you know. So some things last the test of times in ways

because you, much like the game of magic is constantly adapting, you, the person, are constantly adapting. That your identity is not a locked, thing. But I will say the things that define your identity when you're young, some of those stick on, that there's continuity to your identity. You don't really, I mean, there's exceptions to this, but you don't really just reinvent yourself. I'm not saying that never happens, but it is very difficult. And on some level, who you are is who you are. You can grow, and as you grow, you can change what matters to you. And even within magic, even if magic is

part of your identity, you can grow and change it as you change. you can adapt magic and have it changed with you. Now, the challenge is that for each person, like, magic is really good at becoming part of an identity. Once again, for the more franchise. But because magic is so adaptable, not everybody, like, magic is really good at sort of crafting its own need of identity for you. And so, much like I said, I had a whole idea of the psychographics, that what makes magic special to me, is not necessarily what makes magic special to you. Okay, so magic craft my identity,

or it's one of the things I craft my identity around. There's something about it that means a lot. But then magic adapts. And it is possible that magic's adaptation, while following the will of the player base, might not be exactly what magic means magic means to you. So when that happens, the challenge is that here's this thing that you've sort of connected your identity to

and something core about it is changing in a way that's moving away from the way you identify with it. And so the challenge there is that's very disconcerting. I love comic books. Well, what if one day all the comic was said, we're done with the superhero thing? We're going to move on to something else.

We're going to tell different types of stories. Part of my identity goes, no, no, no, no. The superhero thing was core to what I liked about comic books. I don't want you to move away from that. The reason that that thing became part of my identity was that specific thing. And so as magic adapts and evolves, the challenge is sometimes the thing that you shaped your identity changes. And that is very disconcerting. And that one of the reasons that, so one of the trisms as being one of the faces of magic is that I'm on the front line. And whenever we do

something and magic changes in some way, the players that don't like that thing will voice, or some of them, will voice their unhappiness to me. And one of the core themes that I hear is, I enjoyed Thing X about magic, you are moving away from Thing X. That is the thing that Magic meant to me, why are you ruining magic? And the other thing that's really important is, there's a lot of a way. awareness that needs to go into understanding other people's identity, right? Your identity is very personal.

Even if you don't, I'm not saying the average person necessarily stops to think about why they like the things they like. Maybe you have. I have. I mean, some people are introspective. Some aren't. You know what's important to you. You don't always know why it's important, but you know what's important. And if the thing that's important to you shifts away.

For the reason it's important, if what matters to you start changing, it is very disconcerting. Now, one of the things that can happen as you grow up is who you are as a person can change, meaning your identity changes, meaning the things that you connect to might change. Maybe my favorite TV show growing up was a certain TV show, but as they get older, oh, well, who I am as a person starts adapting. And so that thing, being core to my identity, maybe it changes with them. doesn't. You know, there are some things that embed in your psyche that stick with these to death. And there's some things that are there, but as you change and adapt, it's kind of like there was a

movie, let's say, that was really influential when you saw it. Because, once again, it satisfied some emotional need you had at the time when it came out. And I, you know, one of the things that's really interesting to me is when I look back and I think about how I interact with movies, that there's something very personal about it. There's a theme, the movie's about something, but the way that I connect that theme to my life can vary person to person. Now, movies are doing very universal themes, and a lot of people connect in different ways, but it's the same thing. Like, I went and saw a movie, something about that movie spoke to me, and maybe I made a part of my identity because something that movie said, some message or something about it,

was very important. And I will say, if you, like I will say, if you, go look at your favorite movies. Your favorite movies are your favorite movies because something about them speaks to you on a very personal level. Not that they're, I mean, probably they're well made, but anyway, the point I'm making is let's take something that really meant to watch you. And then years later, you go back and watch it again. And man, it is not the movie you remember. And the reason is that the movie had an impact at a time when you needed that impact. But now that you're a different person later in life, you interact. with the movie very differently.

And then the movie might not hold the same element of why it mattered so much to you when it mattered. Because you as a person are different. There's an expression, you can never step in the same river. Right. Because the idea the river is constantly flowing. And so it's changing all the time. So anyway, my point

here is that magic is really adaptable. Magic allows you to craft things so you can connect to your own identity. But then magic keeps changing. and it keeps changing in a way that you, the individual, don't completely control. Interestingly, you do control some of it. You choose what pieces you connect to, but you don't choose the larger thing. Let's say I really like thing X about the game, but then we, the people making the game,

adapt away from it. Oh, I really like this thing, and the magic starts doing that thing. That is a disconnect. Oh, what magic meant to me was this thing, and now magic's not doing that thing anymore. That that is very disconcerting. And I think one of the reasons that I, this is my topic of the day, is one of the things that I, I take very much to heart is I very much care not just about what the message that people are giving me, because I do care about that, I do care about what they're saying. But I care a lot about kind of the emotion behind it. I clearly, I mean, if it's not clear, I mean, I've done, I've done podcasts.

psychology. I love psychology. My mom's a psychologist. I'm fastened by psychology. Why do people do what they do? And my job literally is to bring emotional resonance to people to make people happy. In order to do that, I need to understand why. It's why the psychic graphics, why I made them in the first place. I need to understand why people, what makes people like the game. But in the same sense, I have to sort of understand why do people write me angry letters? you know, and this is not a new thing. People have been writing me angry letters since as long as I've been talking to the public. And there's a core, one of the core through lines,

and this is sort of why I decided to make this topic today is identity is something that is fundamental to who people are, and the things that are part of your identity are really important to you. there's a reason that people latch on to entertainment, you know, to pop culture, to games, that there's things that you do that are entertaining, but also they speak to who you are. And that when those things shift away from the thing that matters to you, it is upsetting. And I understand, like, one of the things is, on some level, magic. is always going to be the game it was when it had the most lift for you, the person, right?

There's a point in your time, especially if you're a lifestyle gamer, especially if magic is part of your identity. And I'm assuming if you're listening to the podcast of the man, the head designer of magic, that at some level, magic maybe has some, you know, has some role in your identity. And I just want to say that I do hear people that when you read, you. write in and you're like, here's the thing I love about magic, and you are shifting away from the thing I love about magic. You're shifting away from the thing that I identify with. I do hear you. I do understand. And like I said, the hard part about magic is that I, the designer, one of the

designers, I don't design for any one person. I design for every person. And so with it, means is that I have to make decisions that are for the good of the group. I have to make decisions that make the most people happy. But what that means is I'm going to make decisions that make individuals unhappy because I'm trying to sort of match, like magic in some level, the collective consciousness of magic players kind of is moving and needing things. And our goal as the design team is to try to sort of hit that consciousness. And we try to make things as wide as possible. We do a lot of one-ofs. I mean, if somebody says they really want something, one of the things about magic is maybe I can't deliver that as a major theme, but I can do it in small doses. I can make

individual cards, maybe every once in a while. Like, it's not that I can't try to address different people. And we try to, in every magic set we make, we make a lot of different things in it so we can express a lot of different elements to a lot of different players. And so it's not, all or nothing. But really sort of the role of today is I understand when magic shifts in turns that you, the player, it can be emotional. And I've been there. I'm a magic

player. Like I mean, I'm at work. I'll finish this thought. So, this is the thing I wrote about on my blog. What I call the Dark Night. And the idea of the Dark Night is, is that when something is part of your identity, such as magic, there comes a point where it changes in a way that sort of rubs up against how you defined it.

And one of the things for me that magic really was an important part for me was, the strategic element of magic was very important for me. This idea that I love puzzles. And I think, I'm just getting, today is a lot about my psychology. guys. One of the things that I like about puzzles and I like about games is this idea that this empowerment, that there's a solution, and if you can find the solution, you can win the game. There's something very core to my psyche about that, the idea that, hey, if I need to solve things in life, it's a puzzle to be solved, that I can get the things I want if I figure out

how to do it. There's something about that mentality that it's part of my psyche, why puzzles are a big part of my identity, in games as well. And so when Commander came out, Commander is more about politics than strategy. And what I mean by that is, the way to win Commander is more about interconnecting with other people, more about building relationships.

And when I say a political game, I don't, I'm not trying to knock. Commander is a fun game. There are political games that I do enjoy like diplomacy, like diplomacy, It's just a certain style of gameplay. And the idea of it is there's just as much skill in a political game.

It's just the skills you're playing into are playing the people. Rather than playing the people. Now, that's not to say there's not a lot of strategy. There's still strategy and commander. I'm not saying there's not strategy. But the court of kind to win has a lot to do with interacting with people. And one of the reasons people love Commander is because what's core of their identity is that interaction with other people.

It is that shared, you know, the socialness of it is super important. So when Commander started becoming the dominance of magic, magic started focusing on that. I had my little dark night, which is the reason I love magic. That's not my personal reason for loving magic. And it's not that I do enjoy the socialness of magic. There's elements I definitely do enjoy. It just disconnected for my, why magic is part of my identity.

And there's a little bit of When the thing you love moves in a direction That isn't the way you appreciate it It's a little disconcerting And I called the Dark Night because you're sort of like I have to come to grips with what my thing is And for me Now I also work on the game

That this probably is I had to have my own My own sort of come to moment to say Well what is magic to me And what I realize that I sort of slowly adapted to is one of the things that magic has become for me as a designer of the game is that I really like helping people.

It's an important part of who I am, it's part of my identity, and that part of the way I like to see the game is that I'm providing a service to people. I do believe magic is a source of great good, and that when I go back and I read all those letters of all those people that magic change their lives, that I, along with all my coworkers,

many, many people make magic. I'm one of, you know, thousands of people. But I was a part of that. People's lives got better because of something I did. And what I realized is that that was a really important part of magic. And guess what? You know, what Commander is doing? It's doing those same things.

It's making lifelong friends. It's taking people who are in a dark place and really needed an escape and giving them that escape. It is doing all the things that all the letters came, you know, all the people saying how magic made their life. Commander is doing that. and that I shouldn't, like my turn is realizing that, oh, this thing that felt like it was contradicting my identity didn't need to, that my identity could adapt to what that is. And essentially, I've sort of absorbed it. And now I'm very proud of Commander.

I know people seem to think I had this thing like, I hate Commander. I don't hate Commander. Commander isn't what I as a game player. It's not my favorite way to play Magic. But I really love what Commander is, and I love what Commander does. And as a magic designer, I think there's a lot of cool things we've done because of the commander. But there is that moment. And one of the things that's really hard is when the thing that shapes your identity itself changes,

it makes you have to walk through your own identity. And one of two things happen. You adapt to the change or you move away from it. I get that. And that may be somebody, like, there are definitely examples of I grew up and this property meant the world to. me, but then something fundamentally changed about who I was or about the property and it stopped being who I was.

And I get that. And I think when you face up against magic, if magic changes and magic is a game about change, one of the things that you need to go through is understand what magic means to you and look at that. And one of the things about magic, one of the big pluses about magic is magic is adaptable.

Magic is many things. And that if magic changes in a way that sort of contradictory identity, you can't and sort of reevaluate what you want magic to be and how you want magic to be. And for some people, maybe magic shifts in a way that's no longer your identity. I mean, I'm not, I don't want to discount that. You know, magic's going to constantly evolve. And for some people, maybe the thing you most loved isn't the thing that says strong about it anymore.

But anyway, that is kind of my thing today is I listen to a lot of players. and I don't want people some, it's very, very hard to communicate to people that you hear their pain, if you will, that's not an easy thing to communicate. And I just, my whole idea of today really was to say to people, I understand the potency of magic,

I understand how it becomes a strong part of your identity, and I understand the actual pain that comes as magic continues to adapt. And in some ways, sometimes adapt away from the thing that you must, most identified with. And I feel that. Now, the good thing about magic is we're not undoing the past.

The things you enjoy in the past are still there. And magic also is very flexible. So, like for me, a lot of my relationship with magic had to do with rethinking why magic mattered to me and what about magic was important. And I was able to adapt to it and change and sort of absorb new magic into my identity. Some people will do that. Some people won't. But the people that are writing into me, I in no way want to minimize anybody's pain.

I know way want to, like, I hear you that magic's adapting, especially for long-time players who have magic, a very core part of identity, as we do new and different things, as we adapt to the collective consciousness that are moving in different places, I do hear that that can be disconcerting for you. In no way, I'm never trying to diminish or dismiss that. It is just a very hard message to communicate in writing where I'm answering questions. It's hard in my blog to communicate that. So why I decided to do today's podcast. I do think magic is an amazing way.

Like, magic came to become a very core part of your identity. And I appreciate that. And I love that about magic. And I love how much magic has become part of my identity. It's huge part of my identity. Magic and comic books, big part of my identity and puzzles. But anyway, so I hope today gave you a little. insight into sort of how I think about magic, how I think about the magic players.

And you've learned a lot about me, too. So my little therapy session today. But anyway, guys, I hope this was something different to think about. I try in my podcast to sort of throw, like, game design is about a lot of different things. But one of the things game design is definitely about a psychology. And understanding people is core to understanding good game design. And so identity, understanding identity, understanding why it matters to people, understanding how your game plays into that

is fundamental for a good game designer. So anyway, guys, that is my talk today, and I've actually been at work for a little bit. I just wanted to finish my talk. So you all know what that means? It means the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic.

I'll see you all next time. Bye-bye.