Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #486: Getting Unstable Made

Episode Date: November 9, 2017

I'm joined by carpooling guest Mark Purvis, Magic senior brand director, to talk about how we took a product that no one at Wizards was asking for us to make, Unstable, and got it all the way to print.

I'm pulling out of somebody else's driveway. You know what that means. It's time for the drive to work. And I have a carpooling guest. So, Mark, say hi. Hi, everybody. So this is Mark Purvis. So this is a name some of you guys might recognize. Why don't we start by explaining sort of what you do at Wizards and... Sure. I work on the brand team. My title right now is Senior Brand Director. And I've been working at Wizards for about 10 years now. My 10-year anniversary was just this summer.

And the brand team... Newbie! Yeah. The brand team is in charge of some of the more business-y aspects of product development, as well as developing marketing campaigns and working with our trade marketing team to make in-store play programs and fun things like that. Right. You guys figure out how much to produce the stuff. Yeah.

And we work with finance and all the kind of boring sausage factory stuff that has to happen in order to make any kind of product. But I've actually been a huge Magic player ever since Revised. That's when I started playing. Oh, Revised, okay, yes. In 1994. And, you know, I have worked on a couple of sets

since coming to Wizards of the Coast. I've had the privilege of playing down in R&D on a couple of sets. So what sets did you work on? I made the Zombie Empire deck in Plane Chase. I made the Kalia deck and designed Kalia and Tariel in the first Commander decks that we ever made. But I've also worked on Gatecrash and M13 and just a couple of sets like that. But the last set that I worked on is the one that I had the most fun with.

Okay, and what set was that? It was Unstable, which I am so excited we can finally talk about. So today we're going to talk about sort of the history of getting Unstable to print, because that was actually a pretty complicated thing, a lot more complicated than you would think. So let's talk a little bit about the history of the Unsets and kind of how the role they've played, because there's a Because you have to understand the unsets in the past to understand the challenges of getting a third unset made. So why don't you talk a little bit about Unglued and Unhinged?

Sure. I mean, I was not working at Wizards of the Coast when they came out, but I was a big-time casual player on the outside. And so in 1998, when Unglued came out, I went to a release event in Los Angeles, where I was living at the time. And just from that first set, I have so many fond memories of just different things that happened while playing it. I played at a little baseball card shop off Melrose in Los Angeles. And my opponent was sitting with his back to a giant plate glass window that faced Melrose, and when I played Herloon Wrangler,

I'll never forget, he looked at the card and he was like, well, I guess I've got to decide whether I'm going to take my pants off. That was not the intent of the card, by the way. I was at the pre-release, I'm head judging, dressed like a chicken, and I walk by somebody and they go, in response to a declaration of attack, I remove my pants. And I'm like, what have I done? What have I done? Well, he ended up not doing it.

And it ended up working as intended. But, you know, that Christmas I remember going home and playing with my little at-home play group. My best friend, Greg Jackson, played free-range chicken against me. He proceeded to roll double. For those of you who don't know, free-range chicken, you can roll two dice. If they come up doubles, it gets plus X, plus X, where X is what you rolled. He proceeded to roll double sixes two or three times in a row

and just booked me with it. And it was hilarious and it was fun and it was a great, fond memory. So a little history for you. So what happened was we actually did a pre-release for Unglued at Gen Con. That's where I dressed up like a chicken. And it was a big hit at Gen Con.

And so what happened was Wizards had gotten a lot of early buzz. And so we didn't really make what we now call supplemental sets back then. That wasn't something, in fact, I think Unglute is the first ever supplemental set we made, I believe. Especially the first booster product one. And so we didn't really know what we were doing with it. And that what happened was it was the closest in size to a small set. So they just

treated it like a small set. And the reality was, it wasn't a small set. In fact, it wasn't even as big as a small set. And so we made too much of it. So early on it sold really well, but then and here's the thing about overprinting, you can make anything fail by overprinting it. The most popular successful set in the world, if you just make too much of it,

you know, it'll stop selling at some point. So my favorite way to play is to wacky draft, you know, put a mix of booster packs into the pool and have everybody drafting different things, but I always encourage people to play with silver-bordered sets in my casual playgroup. So when I got to Wizards of the Coast, I was really excited about the possibility of there being another silver-bordered set. So I don't know, five or six years ago I started doing research into what had happened with the first two, and it's exactly what you said. Because it was such an unknown quantity at the time, there wasn't a really good way to estimate what the demand was going to be.

And so when I dug a little further into it, I realized this would have been a really successful product if we had treated it like we do Conspiracy or some of the other ancillary specialty SKUs that we do right now, instead of treating it like a small set, which is what the business team at the time looks like they did. And in their defense, it was unlike anything we'd ever done, and they really didn't know what to do with it.

And the sad thing is we did it in Unglued, and then six years later did it again in Unhinged. So Unhinged came out in 2004. So here's where the story starts to come together. I'd wanted to make a third set forever. Mark had wanted to make a third set forever. And there's a third Mark involved, a guy named Mark Globus, who was actually in the first great designer search. I think he tied for fourth. He ended up getting a job on the digital team and then eventually moved over to the main R&D team and now he's a producer in R&D and he also really loved the unsets and so what I call the council of marks the three of us really wanted to make it happen and so we were trying to figure out how to

how to do that so this was uh so what is 2017 so beginning 2011, like January of 2011, we had, three of us had a meeting. And the idea we had at the time was, okay, it's going to be hard to get it on the schedule, but what if we just make it first? What if, it'll be easier to say to people,

hey, we have this already made product. Let's see if we can release it versus let's convince people to make it before it existed. Well, there were a lot of really good reasons to do it too. Every time we would do a panel, every time we would go to PAX or to Gen Con or any panel,

we would have someone in the Q&A ask us when we're going to do another Silver-Bordered set. And over time, it's become really hard to get your hands on sealed boosters of those sets. And so it was clear that people wanted that experience. And I suspect it's sort of like a cult movie at this point, where there's a cult following and there's a group of people out there like us that are really excited about the prospect of being able to play with a set like this again.

So here's what happened is able to play with a set like this again so so so here's what happened is we had to make a set uh before like it wasn't on a schedule or anything it was something that was like okay we have to figure out how like okay let's make something um and so Globus had an interesting idea he said what if we make something that we can justify for another business reason beyond just... I mean, we believe very firmly that there's an audience. We believe that people would want it. It always was made under the pretense from us of this would be an awesome thing the players would really love.

But because there's a lot of skepticism because the previous two had sort of overprinted, we needed to come up with some other reasons to sort of make it. sort of overprinted, we needed to come up with some other reasons to sort of make it. So the thing that we tried originally was there was a lot of experimental things that were going on in printing. So behind the scenes, one of the things that you guys don't see too much is we deal with printers, they print our cards, and that the technology of printing keeps changing because there's just new things they can do. And so the printers will come to us. We deal actually with a bunch of printers because we print a lot of magic cards.

And they will come to us and say, hey, we have new technology or we think we're going to get new technology and they pitch us ideas. And so when we started, the idea was, well, what if we use this as a set to explore new technologies? Because the unsets have always been an exploratory thing

even like one of the things that i always one of my guidelines was that it never could be what was black border at the time but if you kind of look at unglued there's things we did unglued that like that was crazy that we've done since then in fact sometimes people look at cards that are unglued and go why was that silver'm like, back then that wasn't considered something we did. You know, BFM seems crazy, but then, you know, flash forward 15 years later and we were meld, which is not that much different, you know. It was a really natural sort of excuse to play in that space as well.

And it really pushed us to do some innovative things, not only within the card set, but at every step of the way afterwards up to and including how we would promote it on the website or announce it. All of this innovation, the spirit of innovation kind of infused itself into every step of the product. And that's one of the things I love about it. Yeah, one of the things, like I said, one of our jobs was we wanted to make it and then sell it and convince people, convince the people in the building that this was something we needed to release. And so interestingly, when we started, we were sort of looking at new printing technology.

That's where we started. And the guidelines that I started when I made my team was let's push boundaries. Here's new things that one day printing will do. Well, if that were true, what could we do? And we really came up with lots of crazy ideas. And then what we found out over time was that a lot of the ideas that we were designing to were things that one day will happen, but hadn't happened yet. And in fact, we started in 2011. By the time the product was ready to go to printing,

some of the things that we had originally experimented with weren't even available. I know in development, we had to pull back on a few things that we had tried, because the technology that we had built it to didn't really exist yet. One of the things, for example, that we messed around with that at the time didn't exist, although we're starting to get there, is the idea of saying card A and card B have to appear together. Like, they're in the booster

together. Now, I know some people might think that sounds so easy to do. It is not. It's actually... In fact, if you go back to Innistrad, one of the things that we'd wanted to do in Innistrad, when we first did double-faced cards, was that there was a separate card you would play that went in your deck that you played that card and then went and got the double-faced card. So the idea was there would be a card that's like the summon the double-faced card and then the double-faced card. But we needed those to appear together in the pack because otherwise, like, you know, it's the go get the werewolf card and the werewolf card.

And we ended up not doing it that way because the technology didn't exist. I think at the time they could promise us, like, 95% pairing accuracy, which meant, like, 19 out of 20 times they came together. We're like, well, that wasn't good enough. So we ended up finding another way to do double-faced cards. One of the great things about Wizards is we've got a really talented production team that will take a problem that we'll throw at them. And if the technology doesn't exist now, they'll figure out a way to match what we're trying to do. So even though Unstable pushed

a lot of technologies to the point where we're probably going to be able to realize the benefit of them in the next year or two, we were able to find ways to deliver the experience that we had planned if that technology had actually existed. It's just a little bit more complicated to get there than we had intended. So, okay, so here's the story I want to tell, which is, okay, so we start making the set. So I have a design team. I start putting the set together um i have a design team i start putting the set together okay but the next step is actually getting it on the schedule so let's talk a little bit about how did we get it on the schedule sure well uh we we had had a really great set called conspiracy and that had opened up a whole new way for people to experience draft and we realized that there

were people out there that were really interested in in these sort of one-off experiences that they could have in between the major set releases. And so it seemed really natural that we'd be able to put a set like Unstable on the schedule and be able to release that in that slot. Yeah, it's interesting. One of the things I tell people to understand how long it took for Unstable to get made was within the window of us starting Unstable and Unstable coming out, Sean Main came up with the idea of conspiracy, made conspiracy, conspiracy came out, conspiracy was a hit, Sean was asked to make conspiracy two, he made conspiracy two, conspiracy two came out, and then Unstable came out.

My boss always jokes about this being the mark retention plan because she knows that I care so much about this product that I'm gonna stay up with her the coast and fight no matter what to make sure that it comes out. But I think she's throwing you and Globus in there as well. Yes. So, yeah, so Conspiracy proved that we could do a set like this and have it find a home in our schedule. But I know that one of the themes in the set that early on we thought was going to be pretty loud was the idea of it being a sort of a steampunk mad scientist world. And early on we had also been talking about Kaladesh as being etherpunk. Or having a little bit more of that.

Well, when we first made the set, we decided to give it a creative treatment. Because the previous unsets, it was card by card. There wasn't a lot of world building. And one of the things we wanted to do, because whenever we make an unset, we want to use the technology of the day. And creative had come a long, long way

since 13 years ago. And so we really wanted to give it a cohesive vision. So the idea at the time, in 2011, was we came up with this idea of doing a steampunk mad adventure world because steampunk was on our list of worlds we wanted to do. And at the time, we weren't going to Kaladesh yet because we ended up sort of audibling into it.

What happened was in Magic Origins, we were figuring out the worlds that all the planeswalkers were from and they came up with this idea of Chandra's home world and that we just liked it so much we audibled.

We ended up putting it on the schedule. But in the seven-year plan, it wasn't there. So when we made, originally, when we chose to do a Mad Adventure steampunk feel, there was nothing on the Magic schedule that was doing steampunk at all. But you're going to jump ahead because you're talking about the second delay, not the first delay. Well, yeah, I mean, the time it was actually on the schedule internally that we were, you know, this close. I know you guys can't see.

I'm judging about an inch away from announcing it was that time for Kaladesh. We had talked about putting it out. But it was originally scheduled for 2015. Right. It was going to be the summer of 2015. But what happened in 2014 was Modern Masters, the very first Modern Masters came out, and was a huge hit. And then we're like, oh, we've got to do Modern Masters 2. Okay, how can we make space for Modern Masters 2? And I got pushed back. That

was the first time I got pushed back. Right. And then the second time was the Kaladesh one that I was talking about. Yes, right. It's going to come out in the summer summer 2016, and then it was decided that we shouldn't have two steampunk sets so close to each other. It's kind of funny. Once you see Unstable, obviously, they're really nothing alike. They're about as different as sets can be. But there was this worry that they would be too similar. They both have an artifact theme in them, and they both obviously have their roots in steampunk.

Although, I don't know, they ended up really, really different places. So then it got pushed back to the summer of 2017, and then I think Conspiracy 2 came out and was really crunched between Eldritch Moon and Kaladesh, and it didn't really have time to breathe. Eldritch Moon and Kaladesh. And it didn't really have time to breathe. And so I think we decided to move Unstable to December so that it would have a little more time for people to play and have fun with it and not have like a week or two and then the next set comes along. Well, there's also this great opportunity with Magic's 25th anniversary, right? So with our 25th anniversary,

there are going to be a lot of different products that we're releasing that are going to be for different audiences. Because one of the best things about Magic is that different people enjoy it different ways. And so it just seems like a really natural fit to be able to release it as part of our celebration of the 25th anniversary of Magic. Yeah, so I keep thinking of the little quote from Monty Python. Like, we put the set out, and it sank. So we put a second set out, and it sank. We put out a third set, it burned over and sank.

But the fourth set stayed. So finally, the fourth release, that's the one that actually, we told you it's coming out, so I hope it's coming out. Oh, it's definitely coming out. I actually just talked to our production team yesterday, and they're going down to the printers next week to watch it actually be printed. Oh, cool's definitely coming out. I actually just talked to our production team yesterday, and they're going down to the printers next week to watch it actually be printed. Oh, cool, cool.

So we're actually recording this a little early because by the time you guys are hearing it, it's going to be coming out either. It has come out or it's coming out shortly. But I'm trying to think of any other. One of the interesting things also along the way was, I mean, I'm going to do a different podcast talking about the actual design of it.

Today's a little bit more about getting it made. And I'll do different podcasts talking about how contraptions and stuff came to be. The other thing I remember was, you were on the development team. I was, yeah. So I was on the design team. I led the design team.

And then I was on the development team with you. Had a bunch of different lead designers. It changed. It had a very, very long development period. Because you keep getting pushed back. And so I think the first lead designer was Billy Moreno. And then the second one was Dave Humphries. And then the third one was Ben Hayes.

But that's kind of I think one of the cool things about the set is that every one of those people brought a different sensibility on how to make the play of the set fun yes and that's one of the things that you know with the first unset it wasn't a 15 card

booster it was a 10 card booster for those that love their trivia so it was difficult to incorporate it into a draft environment. I think one of the big successes with this one is that we really focused on making the play fun. In addition to there being fun cards and there being jokes on the cards that are really hilarious, it creates really fun play situations that the previous ones had in them, but this is really the focus of this set. Yeah, the other thing that we did, because once again,

we had to sort of convince internally why we thought there would be a strong audience for it. We designed it with a lot of formats in mind. I mean, we obviously designed it to be drafted, and it's meant to be drafted by itself. And we put a lot into it so you could draft it a bunch of times and have fun. We definitely thought about Commander. There's a lot of legendary stuff in it. We thought about cubes. I know that Uncards actually are very popular in cubes.

So we made a bunch of cards that were, we thought were cube friendly. We did a bunch of casual things. Like I made a Squirrel Lord so you can make your squirrel deck yep, the Earl of Squirrels the Earl of Squirrels I'm a big fan of squirrels and I'm so excited

to have new squirrel cards to put in my casual decks yeah, one of my ongoing goals is to over time make enough squirrels that you really can make a robust squirrel deck but there's a I'm trying to think of other... A little extra time here. Okay, so let's walk through.

We... So we started in 2011. I think the design was a slow design. I think we took maybe three years on the design because we didn't have an end date for a while. So I was kind of... The funny thing was while I was working on it, I was still leading other sets. Like, every moment that I was leading this set, I, ever since Shadowmoor, I've been continuously leading a set since Shadowmoor, so I was, while I was leading this set, I was still leading another set, so we just did it very slowly so that we could get it done and do it right and do it well. And, like I said, we kept

trying different things, and then coming back and saying, okay, can we do this? Can we do this? Can we do this? And then as we got closer, we started sort of figuring out what we could do and we mimicked some stuff that we'd originally planned, but we couldn't do. Okay. So how do we get it from, how do we get it on the first schedule in the first place?

How did we do that? Well, I think doing a lot of research into how we could have, you know, come up with the right print run, the right timing, all the right, uh, ways that as a business we could benefit from doing it were some of the things that went into convincing the leadership that this was a really great idea for us to do as a business. And that's, that's kind of my gig gig but a lot of great things came out of it even things that saw the light of day prior to the set actually coming out for example one of the things that you mentioned Mark Globus had worked with the production team on was really pushing print capability and innovation there so when you look at the full bleed

lands that came out of the set we part of why we have black borders on cards is just to make it so that we can sort of hide when there's little imperfections on the tolerances of the cards. Right. So if the, if it's cut a little, a little bit miscut, and this used to happen a lot more in the past, the tolerances have gotten so much better and our printers have gotten so good

that this, this doesn't happen that often anymore, but we got to the point where we felt really comfortable that we could actually have the artwork go all the way to the side of the the card and so that we could take the idea of the full art land that was first presented in the first unset and really take it to the ultimate extreme and of course we got we got john avon to work on it he's one of the best magic artists especially for landscapes and he just really knocked it out of the park on those cards. But my point is, you know, those innovations and things that you may never see ended up benefiting us in other ways.

For example, the full-bleed look of the Amonkhet masterpieces was a direct descendant of the work done on the full-bleed lands that we made for Unstable. Right, we had done the lands before they had done the invocations, and so that's a good example where one of the things that, in selling this, one of the things that we've really stressed is the unsets get to be a place for innovation, that there's a lot, for example, if you

just look at magic, like I said, the full-art lands, as an example, something that was really successful, when I first tried it, I mean, Chris Rush originally wanted to do them, and no one would let him do them, and the only reason that I did them and unglued that they let me is like, well, it's the

weird set. Okay, yeah, yeah, it's a weird thing. The weird set can do it. And then they were crazy, crazy popular, and then obviously I didn't get it on Hinge, and then they just started, like, normal magic now does them. It's no longer just a weird silver border thing. And there's a lot of other stuff, like split cards. I mean, actually, the second

Unglue 2 never came out, but split cards were made for Unglue 2, and then that set never came out, and then when I was doing Invasion, I said, hey, Bill, I have this weird idea, and I convinced, I mean, Bill I convinced, but it took the rest of the company a little while longer to convince.

But there's a lot of things that we do in Magic now that, you know, I talked about MELD earlier, you know, like the, what were the future cards from, future site cards, the packs. There's a lot of things where we'll try something, and that there are things we did in Unstable that I actually think 10 years from now might just, magic does that, and that you'll look back and go, why was this silver-bordered? But I was really, really happy that we were able to sort of push boundaries and that one

of the things we did when we tried to get this on the schedule was sort of really, oh, here's something else I did, but it's something for you guys to know. I actually went around and I collected all the comments I could find off my blog, off Reddit, off all the social media we could. I made a collection of, here's people asking for a third onset. So when we went to them, we're like, look, look, every place you can look, here it is. Here's people asking for it. And so one of the things I think that got it made was you guys.

It was just the constant sort of, like, it might seem like you asking the same question every day for years didn't matter. But it did. It really, really did. It did. In fact, you know, we sometimes record our panels. Yeah. And one of the things I did as part of the presentation for making this product was I took a series of clips of different people asking the same question at our panels and I played it as part of the evidence that there's

no really there's there's a bunch of people out here that really want us to make this and I don't know if you go back and look at some of those those panels and you look at I don't know there were a couple I was on some of the San Diego Diego Comic-Con ones. Yeah, San Diego Comic-Con. If you look at the expression on our faces, you'll probably now realize that we were in our heads screaming, yes, yes, we're going to make another one. But we just can't tell you about it yet because we don't know when it's going to come out. Yeah, in fact, I think almost the entire run of San Diego Comic-Con,

like every single San Diego Comic-Con, every year somebody asked, and every year we knew eventually it was coming. Yeah. In fact, the thing we kept joking about was, the way we wanted to release it was wait for somebody to ask a question and go, yes, we're doing it!

Show the sign! We didn't end up doing that, but we were close. We thought about doing that. Yeah. So anyway, we're almost wrapping up here, but... So, real quickly,

so what happened was we got them to put it on the schedule. It's clear from the fact that it moved a bunch of times that it was... Everybody who was sort of like... I think what really got it on the schedule was a combination of us demonstrating to them you guys wanted it or some of you wanted it. And the passion of me and Mark and many Marks in the building

of sort of, it was clear how much of a passion we had to make it, and it is, I can't say how excited, I'm so excited it's coming out Yeah, and if you, you know, even if you've played Silver-Bordered Sets before and aren't sure about whether or not they're for you, check this one out

because so much more work, modern development was applied to it. Modern world building was applied to it. It's got replayability like the other ones really didn't have built into them. And, you know, I'm excited to draft this. Yeah. And the other thing that we, one of the things I also talk about is it has a modern sensibility, a modern design. It is, there's a lot of, I think we've gotten a lot better at designing magic cards just having done it for a long time. And like I said, I did the other two unsets. This is clearly, I think, the bestly designed as a whole package.

I mean, there's lots and lots of fun individual cards in the old unsets. I, like, unglued, unhinged my babies. I love them. But Unstable is a package. It is something in which it is a lot more of a cohesive thing. Like I said, there's world building built into it. We were very conscious of lots of different formats, lots of different ways to play. Also, the humor

is something I should express. Each set had a very different tonal humor to it. For example, Unhinged had a lot more of a sophomoric sort of humor. This set is not that. This set is a little more of a refined sense of humor. We kind of built a world that was really kind of cool and interesting.

And, like, the five factions are awesome. We really spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make cool, neat factions. We did world building with it. We had artists come in. And, like, you know, the crossbreed labs is just, like, it's amazing. All of them are really, really cool.

And, you know, like I said earlier, there are the opportunities for hilarious situations to come up in gameplay. Yes. I don't know if you've talked about Ben Hayes asking Brian Holliday to... Oh, no, no, no, no. We haven't yet.

Should we tell that story? Should we tell that story? I'm trying to think when we're going to release this because right now we haven't said anything yet that I can't release it relatively soon. Okay. So why don't we hold off? I will tell that story. I'm trying to think when we're going to release this because right now we haven't said anything yet that I can't release it relatively soon. So why don't we hold off.

I will tell that story. But I realize today we haven't said anything that we can't release this relatively soon. So let's not.

If we say something we can't say then I have to wait for like two months to play this. So I promise guys I will tell that story. The Ben Hay story

I will tell that story. Yes. And I am on the way to work for you. So I would be happy to do this again when I talk about specific cards. Awesome. So I am on the way to work for you. So I would be happy to do this again. Yes. Talk about specific cards.

Awesome. So I think probably what we'll do is I'll pick you up and we'll talk about specifics. Today we were very vague, so we talked about the history of the stat. But hopefully, anyway, guys, we worked really hard to make this happen. This was a Herculean task behind the scenes. It was something where we were passionate. We really cared. We put a lot of time and energy. In fact, just as

pure time put in, because it took so long, because it stretched over so much time, I was constantly, not full-time, but I was always working on it. And so this set had a lot of love from everybody involved in it. And so I think you guys will really, really enjoy it. And let me end by saying this.

I've said this a couple times, but I will say it one last time. If this is the kind of thing you love, please obviously do it. If you've never experienced it before, try it. It's a perfect draft experience. It does not need to be something you continually play. It could be something you sample once and try

and see what you think of it. I really believe when you play it, it's not what you might think it'll be. It's magic. I mean, there's a lot of fun things. I always talk about how the spectrum of fun to competitive, this is on the fun side of the spectrum. But it is just a lot of neat

things. There's a lot of fun experiences you get from it. And, if this is something you care about, we've made it two times before, didn't have great success because we overprinted it. If this one something you care about, we've made it two times before, didn't have great success because we overprinted it. If this one is not something people show, if the audience does not demonstrate

this is something they want, I do not believe we will see a fourth unset. Please prove us right, is what Mark is saying. If the audience comes out and there's passion, that would be awesome. If in the end it's like, well,. That, if the audience comes out and there's passion and, you know what I'm saying, that would be awesome. If,

if in the end it's like, well, there's not really an audience, then this will be the last sunset. So, prove, prove me that we're right, that there really is a strong audience

and people want it. So please, please go buy, go buy, go play. I really think you'll enjoy it. It's a really, really fun set.

But, we are now at work. So, so thanks, thanks for joining me today. And I will have you back. We'll talk nitty gritty of actual cards and things. We'll talk mechanics and stuff.

But anyway, I'm at work. So that means this is the end of our drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for Mark and me to be making magic. Okay, I'll see you guys next time. Bye bye.