Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #680: Diversity in Game Design

Episode Date: October 11, 2019

In August, I wrote an article about why diversity matters in game design. This is my podcast version of that topic.

I'm pulling my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another drive to work. Okay, so every once in a while on my podcast, I take a topic of an article I wrote and I do a podcast on it. Partly because not everybody likes every medium and some people like to listen to me in podcast form. This was an important topic though, so I'm happy to do a podcast version of it. So this article was called, Why Diversity Matters in Game Design. So the point of the article, the point of today's podcast, is not to talk about why diversity is important. It is. But it's not the point. What I'm talking about today is why is diversity good for game design specifically? So in order to talk about this, what I did is I took six of the lessons

from my 20 Lessons, 20 Years, 20 Lessons podcast, the big thing I did for GDC. I took six of the lessons from my 20 Lessons, 20 Years, 20 Lessons podcast, the big thing I did for GDC. I took six of them as base sort of lessons that I've talked about in the past, and then I applied to them, okay, now let's look at why diversity matters in this context. So that's what I'm going to do today. I'm going to walk through each one of these and talk about sort of just the general importance of diversity in game design. of just the general importance of diversity in game design. Okay, so lesson number one is allow the player the ability to make the game personal. So this general game design rule or lesson talks about how if you want somebody to really get connected to your game, you have to give them some means in some ways to make it personal

to them. you have to give them some means in some ways to make it personal to them. That, you know, I talk a lot about in my game design of how people fundamentally make their decisions based on emotion and not on intellect. As much as we as humans like to think we make intellectual decisions, most of the time it's our emotions that are running our decision making. And we talk about a game, a big part of a game, you know, whenever I talk about, like, a big part of a game. Whenever I talk about how do you know if your game is good, I ask the question, when someone plays your game, do they want to play

it again? What draws them in? There's a lot of competition for games. What makes your game the thing that really pulls people in? Well, one of the things I talked about is the more you can make it personal for that player, the more there's something in it they can see that sort of speaks to them, the more bonding you create with the gang. I talk a lot about how people are creatures of comfort when I talk about all the different theories of communication theory, of how there's comfort and surprise and completion. But the first one is

comfort. And, you know, built into our DNA and the way we function is, you know, when we were a young species, like, eating the wrong berries could kill you, right? So, like, we sort of learned the importance of recognizing something and how you just naturally feel more comfortable when you see things that are something that you're familiar with. And so one of the things about diversity is we want every single person who plays the game to have that sense of comfort with the game, that they can see themselves in the game.

And that is something that, you know, if you are trying to bond people, if you're trying to pull people in, if you're trying to get people to sort of have a level of comfort, having a wide variety out there so that no matter who you are, no matter, you know, whatever you come to the game with, that the game itself has a mirror reflection to it. That you can see yourself and go, oh, I feel like I belong with this game because I can see myself in the game. I mean, not only is that important because it puts the person at ease, but it also just makes them more willing and have an easier time connecting to your game.

And like I said, the key to making a good game is making something that people in one playing can really bond with. Because like I said, if you play a game and there's nothing about it that pulls you in, there's nothing about it that makes you go, something about this speaks to me, then you will move on and you will play another game. And so diversity is just a tool for the game designer to help make more comfort, more familiarity, make the wider spread so more people come to your game and go, oh, something about this game feels comforting to me. And, I will stress, not everything in your game needs to be for everybody.

Actually, I'm getting ahead. That's a future lesson. I will get there in a second. Okay, next lesson. If everyone likes your game, but no one loves it, it will fail. Okay, so what this one talks about is how if you design your game to make sure no component is unliked by anybody, what you end up with something is very homogenous. And it's not something anybody will fall in love with. That what makes people really fall for a game is there's something bold, there's something

that really speaks to them. And in order to do that, people don't all want the same thing. There's no such thing as making everybody fall in love with a game, but nobody hates your game. The very things that will make somebody love it will make somebody else hate it. And the whole point of this lesson is, don't worry if somebody hates a component of your game. That you can't design to not be hated. You have to design to be loved. And the idea is,

as long as there's something in your game that each player can find to love, it doesn't matter if they hate other things. They'll focus on the things they love about it. And that, I think, one of the big mistakes that designers make is is instead of trying to make things that really are going to grab people, they try to make things that won't upset anybody. And that's just not the way, like, there's so many games out there. There's so much, there's so much competition that you can't just be okay or nothing offends me. You know what I'm saying? What you need to do is you have to make a game that people go I love this game.

I love this game. Like one of the things that Magic does that I think really helps it is it really lets people sort of create the game they want it to be. You can make it the format you want it to be.

You can make your deck the deck you want it to be. That there's so much ability to find the thing that you love. You know, if you love elves you can make an elf love. You know, if you love elves, you can make an elf deck. You know, if you love whatever you love, you like Greek mythology or you like, you know, zombies or dinosaurs, whatever it is that you really are passionate about.

You know, magic is 20,000 cards. Go find the things you're passionate about. And the fact there's things you might not like, like not every card is for every player. Not every component has to be for every player. but you have to think about how something's for everybody. Now, when you think of Magic, there's so many different kinds of people who play Magic. For starters, there's different formats. You can play Standard, you can play Draft, you can play Modern, you can play Commander, you can play Pauper. There's infinite ways to play draft. You can play modern. You can play commander. You can play pauper. There's infinite ways to play magic.

And you can play two-player. You can play multiplayer. You can be a Timmy or a Tammy, a Johnny or a Jenny, a Spike. Aesthetically, you could be a Vorthos. You could be a Mel. Maybe you like cosplaying. Maybe you like trading. Maybe you like the art. There's so many different ways to enjoy magic. Now imagine if all of magic just made one of those groups happy.

For example, let's say the Spike Drafter. What if every decision made in magic was to make the Spike Drafter as happy as humanly possible? 100% of the things were dedicated to make Spike happy. And everybody else, well, they'd make do. You know, the Commander player, well, every once in a while we'd make a legendary matter set everybody else, well, they'd make do. You know, the commander player, well, every once in a while we'd make a legendary

matter set for Spike, the drafter, and then they'd get some new legends. But, you know, people would have to scratch to get by.

And people would, you know what I'm saying? If you like magic and, okay, we don't make legendary creatures very often, but every once in a while

we'd make some, we'd do the best that we could. But the point is, if you make your legendary creations very often, but every once in a while we make some. We do the best that we could. But the point is, if you make your game for one demographic, you know, it's only one demographic in mind, it's that same thing. You don't need 100% of your game

to be liked by everybody. You know what I'm saying? What you want is, you want everybody to really love something, but you want to diversify so that a lot of different people, like your players are going to be different. They're going to want different things.

If your game only speaks to a tiny, tiny subset, you're going to have a tiny audience. Do you want to have a giant audience? Do you want your game to appeal to a lot of different people? Then you want to go broad. You want to have a lot of possibilities for people. You know what I'm saying? You want people to fall in love, and what that means is you need to push in different boundaries and different ways to make things that people really can stand up for. Now, what that

means is some of the components won't be for certain people, but that's okay. They'll lean toward the things that are for them. And, like I said, you need to make sure that everybody has something they really feel strongly about because that is what makes someone stick with the game. The idea that I love this component. Even if this other component isn't for me, it doesn't matter. I love this component. You know what I'm saying? That one of the things that makes magic work is, okay, maybe I don't care

so much about Egyptian mythology, but I love pirates! You know, and you find the thing that really speaks to you, and then you can make the game that, and you can focus on that. And that is an important part of any game design. Okay, next lesson.

The details are where the players fall in love with the game. So the idea here is you want to put a lot of time and energy on your details because while not everybody will appreciate every detail, somebody will appreciate each detail. And that a lot of times the things in your game that end up being the breakaway. In my talk, I talk about Fibble Fib. Fibble Fib was, there was an illustration on a card,

not even a good card, like a card that maybe you'd play in limited, just random illustration, but it just something about it caught people. And from that one illustration, we have made plushies and phone cases and we've hit him in other art. In fact, he finally became more of a spark. He got his own card.

Something that started as a very minor thing just caught on. And you never know what's going to be the thing that catches on. So you want to put a lot of time and attention on your details. Okay, so this is where I bring up in the article the idea of otherness. So it's an important part in diversity. The idea is in any one society, in any one category, there's usually a majority. The majority of people are something. And it's not always the majority, but it's a thing that's kind of the default thing. So that, you know, in society, the default is you are something. And then anything that's not that default, depending on whatever the subject matter is,

is treated like what's called an other in that you are, you kind of know that it's not talking to you. So, for example, I'm a straight white cis man. In most cases, I'm not in the other. But the one example where I am is my religion. So I'm Jewish, for those of you that don't know that. And there's times in my life where I've been somewhere where the assumption is you're Christian. The majority of people in the U.S. are Christian. And I'll go to places or go to parties or do things. And the idea is, it's very clear that who I am and what I am in those circumstances is not

the norm. That I just have to kind of accept that, well, you know, if I want to be here, I have to go, well, that's kind of what it is, you know. And that sense of otherness, like I said, religion is interesting in that, you in that I don't look other, meaning I can blend in very well. People might not necessarily know my religion from just looking at me. So my sense of otherness is not quite as severe as people who can never escape their otherness. But it does make me understand. There's moments in my life where I can recognize and see that I'm not made to feel like I belong. I'm made to feel like, you know, if I want to be there, I have to kind of go,

well, I'm, this is not for me. And just, it's, I have to kind of accept that I'm the other. And the reason we bring that up is I talk a lot about how the details really can grab people. And once again, not every detail has to be for every player. But one of the things about details is people can really latch on to them. For example, I had a really interesting conversation with someone about Chandra. And the fact that Chandra comes from a mixed parentage, meaning that her parents are not of the same race, and maybe she's a biracial child, really spoke to them.

It took Chandra from being just a character to be someone they really connected to, because they came from a biracial family. And the fact, for example, that Chandra looked like her dad and didn't look like her mom at all really spoke to them. Because that's something that was true of their sibling.

Their sibling looked like their mother but not their father. And the idea that that little note really, to that person, brought them in and made them feel connected. That was their fiddleship. That was something that really spoke to them and became something big to them and that's one of the things I'm trying to point out is when I talk about your details mattering what I mean is somebody out there is really going to latch onto that detail

and that detail is going to mean the world to them that detail might be the difference between them loving your game and not that what it takes for someone to fall in love with the game is not a lot it's just something that really pulls them in and speaks to them. And sometimes those things are the details. And diversity gets to be those details.

That you get to say, hey, here are different people in different contexts. And that as you spread that out and show a lot of different kinds of people, you get to connect to people out there that can see themselves and connect to them. And sometimes it might not even be who they are. It might be something that they recognize or see or someone they've connected with. But it's those little details that make people connect to your game. It's that, you know, I'm saying that there are people who play Magic because Fibblefip just spoke to them. But that's also true for other things.

The number of people who've written to me to say, I saw this aspect in the game, and that the fact that I saw that really made me feel like this game was for me, that the game wasn't about somebody else. I wasn't an other in the game. I was with, the game spoke of me, that I didn't feel disconnected. And a lot of things,

one of the things you learn as you sort of study diversity is there's a lot of people who have learned in their entertainment to just accept that they're the other. I'm not going to be in my entertainment. I'm not going to be in the movies I see. I'm not going to be in the TV shows I watch. I'm not going to be represented in the games I play. And a lot of people really sort of go, okay, I guess that's the way things are. But when they get a taste of seeing themselves, it's really potent.

It's really powerful. And it connects to them. And that part of what you're trying to do as a game designer is you want as many people as possible to connect. The diversity is just yet another means to create these details that will pull people in. Okay, next. Allow your players to have a sense of ownership. Okay, so this rule was all about customization. What this rule, or lesson, said was

you want to make sure that you give your game player some control over what they are playing with. And the idea is, if you put some customization in your game, you allow your player the ability to customize, to make it feel like it's their own. In Magic, Magic has a lot of customization in that you build your deck. I mean, you choose what you play. So that's a huge, you have a huge ability to affect how you're playing because you get to choose the pieces you're playing with. So a good example here is, we made a card called the Alicia Who Smiles at Death, who was a trans character,

a legendary character who was a trans character. We wrote a whole story about her. And I heard from so many trans people, you know, who said, oh my God, just seeing someone like me in the game, you know, it let me, I now could build a deck. And a lot of them said, I built an Alicia deck. You know,

it really was, it's a component that I can then take and I can build around and I can use it as a means of self-expression. I can say, hey,

I want people to see this aspect of me so I will play this aspect in the game. You know, I can customize my game to be about that. That I can make an Alicia deck or I could make a deck in which Alicia plays a component. You know, I can customize my game to be about that. That I can make

an Alicia Decker. I can make a Decker which Alicia plays a component. And so, I mean, I can't even tell you how many people who have contacted me

about Alicia and about how the ability to play Alicia, the ability for Alicia not just to be something they see, but something they play. Something, you know,

it could be their commander. Something that they really could identify with was powerful and important to them. And that a big part of making your game get accepted is giving people the tools to really, you know, like I said,

the whole point of customization in the game design standpoint is to make people make something that feels uniquely their own. That no one else does exactly. I've done this. This is something that speaks to me. And diversity is a huge tool of that because if you're giving people the tools to customize, if one of those tools is a breadth of diversity,

a breadth of different options that allows them to sort of build something that very much speaks about who they are. And like I said, that is a powerful, powerful thing. You know, the one thing, probably my number one lesson in game design is that if you work with human nature instead of against it, you are helping yourself immensely. And the need to belong, the need to feel included, is a basic, basic human need. If you build that into your game, you are just increasing your chance that the players can bond with your

game. And once again, I say this all the time, that's how you win in game design, is getting players to bond to your game, is getting people to make the game feel as an extension of them. That it's not just something they do, it's something that they get to belong to. One of the strengths of Magic is it's not just a game, it's a hobby, it's a lifestyle, it's a community. And that is something that is really, really potent. And if you can build that into your game,

that just increases your chance of your game succeeding. Next, design the component for the audience it's intended for. One second. Okay. So this lesson talks about how not every piece of your game is made for everybody. So, for example, when I talk about this, when I make a card, I like to think about, for example, the psychographic. Is this a Timmy Tammy card? Is this a Johnny Janney card? Is this a Spike card? Who is this card for? And if you don't understand who you're designing the component for, then you don't end up designing for anybody. You have to sort of keep in mind, who do I want to make happy?

Because if I try to make everybody happy, you often make nobody happy. I got to sort of focus. Because if I try to make everybody happy, you often make nobody happy. I got to sort of focus. And diversity is a lot of the same thing, which is, if I can think about who I'm designing something for, it just increases my ability to be able to speak to them. Like, it was a big deal that when we made Alicia, for example,

that we had a story that went with it. We were very conscious in that. You know, one of the things, for example, that we do, we started doing a while back, is making sure that all our worlds have a gender balance that matches the world, which means 50-50. That half of all the characters you see on a card are female, and half are male.

And that, you know, one of the things that I've, like I've heard time and time again from a lot of women players is just seeing women in, you know, roles that they really, you know, they're not the damsel in distress, but they're getting to fight the fight and, you know, they're powerful wizards

or soldiers or whatever really speaks to people, you know what I'm saying? And a lot of women have commented to me that that was important for them. And, you know, one of the things about diversity is it allows you to fine-tune all your components to really say, hey, I'm making something that can speak to that person. And one of the things we try really hard is to say, what are all the different groups we can speak to? How do we speak to them? Now, I'll admit, some groups are easier than others. For example,

you know, we're a game about fighting, you know, in which we show visual cards. And so it's a lot easier, for example, to show physical things, you know, to show gender, to show skin color, because we get a visual thing. We don't mean, there's no, I mean, on the cards themselves, we have a picture, and maybe we have a line in the flavor text. It's a lot easier to show visual things

than do other things. We try the best we can to represent all the stuff we can, but we try to play into our strengths with it. We have a lot of visual components, and the art's really big, so visual diversity is something the art's really big. So visual diversity is something we really, really push because it's something we can be good at and we can demonstrate. But anyway, that is important, that if you're making a game,

you want to make sure that all the different people that might like your game have something in your game that is for them. And you need to be conscious and think about that because I want anybody who sits to play my game to go, I enjoyed this. I want to play more. And I want everybody to have that feeling but everybody's, you know what I'm saying, when I design a magic set, I know that this one card is going to make a certain group happy. But it's not going to make a certain group happy.

But it's not going to make you, like, for example, when I make a Johnny Jenny card, like, especially like a weird, rare, that just does something quirky you have to build around. You know, we used to do, we did this thing called God Book Studies, where people inside the company grade things. And those cards never did particularly well. And the reason was, most players are like,

this is a weird thing, I don't know what to do with it. I don't like it. Now, the Johnnies and Jennies are like, oh, it's a weird thing. What can I do with it? And, you know, we used to always have to make sure to fight to keep those things because, look, not everybody likes the weird thing you don't know what to do with. But for the people it's for, for that audience, it speaks volumes. It might be the difference between them playing and not playing. And my point is, the same reason I have to defend

and make sure that the Johnny Jenny Rare stays in the set is the same reason I want to make sure that I have different minorities represented, different people, so that the thing that might keep somebody else in the game might be, oh, I bond with this card. It really speaks to me. I'm going to play with this card. And so you have to sort of design your components known for all the different

people that you want to play with. That is really important. Okay, the last lesson. Be more afraid of boring your players than challenging them. So one of the biggest things against diversity is this desire to, you know, why things are great. Why change things? And my answer there is when I make the game of Magic, I, you know, I, my job is to push us in new places.

I'm the guy that, you know, push to say, why don't we do split cards or hybrid mana or double phase cards or, you know, whatever it is. Whatever is something. Let's make a multicolor set where only four of the ten combinations are even in the set. You know, I'll pitch things. And a lot of times when I pitch stuff, we're going to make a set all about lands. We're going to make a set about fairy tales. There's a lot of stuff I've done that at first people are like, eh, I don't know

if we want to do that. For whatever reason, I don't think people will like that. And a lot of what I've had to do is fight through that and say no, no, no. I think that's something people will like. And the whole point of this lesson is, if you try something a bit out there and it doesn't work, the response from the audience is okay, I tried it. I didn't like it. It doesn't make them stop

playing. It just makes them go, okay, they tried something. I applaud that you tried something. But when you just do nothing, they get bored. And they're not forgiving of being bored. They're forgiving of you trying something bold way more than forgiving of you boring them. And so the point there was, the reason for this lesson is,

there's this idea that playing it like not rocking the boat is the safe thing to do. And my argument is, in game design, it is not. It is not the safe thing to do. And my argument is, in game design, it is not. It is not the safe thing to do. Making a game that nobody really... Making something that doesn't stand out to people is going to fail. And that if you're going to make a game, you've got to be bold. And that being bold is not the risky thing.

Being bold is the non-risky thing. Because to succeed, you have to really get out there. And if I look at my successes in magic, a lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them meant a lot of resistance. A lot of them, people going, I don't know. And me going, no, no, no, trust me, it'll work out. And I think diversity is similar in the sense of,

it's very easy. The people that tend to fight against diversity, usually it boils down to, hey, things are okay. Why do we have to change things? And my only issue there is, if I never push things, if I never try, you know,

I think magic would be much less what it is today had anyone I say I, I and other people in magic, not just me, but if we as R&D as a department haven't pushed things, haven't tried things we hadn't done before, hadn't, you know, experimented, like what makes magic magic is not that we do exactly what we've done before,

is that we do stuff we've done before, but then try new things and add new things in. And, you know, one of the exciting things about the game of magic is it keeps reinventing itself. Well, it wouldn't reinvent itself if we didn't push it. And I think diversity is the same kind of thing where it's very easy to get initial resistance just because people fear change and change is different

and what's wrong with the way things were. But one of the things I've found is every time I've interacted with people and I've seen the reaction of the diversity in what we've done and how powerful it's been and how impactful it's been, it just makes me want to push even more. And that if you are making a game and you're trying to do something that is really going to be a success, you need to be bold.

I mean, that's the whole point of this lesson. You need to be bold. And the idea that you're doing the safe thing by not being bold, of not pushing, of not, you know, it's not true. Like, it's, you know, there are a lot of games out there. Making a game that, you know,

I made a game that nobody dislikes and that everybody goes, oh, it's okay. Yeah, that's going to fail. You know, you have to make a game that people go, oh, have you seen this game? Have you seen this game? And to do that, you really have to be willing to push. And diversity is one of those areas where it is easy to fall on the trap of just doing what you know and just doing what you're familiar with and just doing what's come before. But I will say as somebody who's on the front lines

of magic, meaning I'm someone who interacts with the public on a daily basis that every time we really push diversity, every time we really you know, I mean it's not, we do it all the time, but I've seen from people the responses that it's had. And I've seen how it's just brought more people in. And Magic is doing the best it's ever done. And one of the reasons for that, and if you look at the statistics that we see, basically what's happening is we're getting more and more different kinds of players playing. You know, there's more women playing than ever before.

There's more minorities playing than ever before. There's more minorities playing than ever before. There's just more people playing Magic. You know, there's more of a breadth of the audience. And that is something that's exciting. That if you put a breadth of in your game, you start seeing that breadth outside your game. That as we have made a conscious effort

to create more diversity within the game, we've also made more diversity outside the game. And've also made more diversity outside the game. And those are connected. I truly believe the diversity outside the game has come from a lot of a push of diversity inside the game. That, you know, when people get to come to it and they see that they are not an other, that they belong, that is a potent, potent force. And, you know, one of the things for the reason I wrote the article, the reason I'm doing today's podcast is while there are plenty of social goods for diversity,

like I said, that's not my goal. My goal today is to talk about game design. You are just, on some level, when I discover an important tool, when I discover something that makes me a better game designer, it's crazy not to use that. For example, I talk a lot about creativity and I talk a lot about how to use that creativity to make a better game. I wouldn't give that up. I wouldn't say to people, hey, here's a tool you could use. Yeah, don't use that.

No, of course use that. That when you're making a game and you're trying to make the best game you can, you need to use every resource available to you. And my point of today, of the article of today's podcast is diversity is a powerful and useful tool. It will make your game better. It will make your game more available. It'll make your game, it will help you with your game. It will make your game more successful because it will broaden who your audience can be. And I will say in today's world, gaming is not a homogenous thing. You know, when I was a little kid, I think gaming was a little bit more homogenous than it is now. And it has grown, you know. Gaming is not something that a few people do. Gaming is something that most people do. that a few people do.

Gaming is something that most people do. And that you want your game to be something that can be approachable by, you know, a wide audience. You want a lot of people to sample your thing. And what I'm saying today is think of diversity as a tool in your quiver, your game design quiver.

I guess an arrow in your game design quiver. And that it is something to be, you know, you want to think about how to use it most effectively. It shouldn't be a question of should I use it or should I not? Of course you should use it. It will make your game better. It will make your game more approachable. It will make your game, like I said, all the lessons I talked about today, it will just make your game a better game and it will make it something that more people will connect to and play. And fundamentally, like I said, whenever I talk about game design, my goal is to make a game that A, you are proud

of and B, that can be successful. And part of a game being successful is just broadening your chances of having as much audience as possible. You want any person who plays your game to walk away going, hey, I enjoy this game. And I'm not saying diversity is the only tool. Obviously, I have podcasts, I'm on podcasts of all sorts of other tools you need.

There's a lot to game design. But ignoring diversity, not using diversity is silly because diversity will make your game better and will make it much more approachable by more people. So that, my friends. So let me recap the lessons.

I'm just putting my brain on. Okay. So why diversity matters in the game? The five lessons, sorry, six lessons of today. Allow the player the ability to make the game personal that when they see themselves, they'll feel more comfortable. If everyone likes your game but no one loves it, it will fail. You can't design for everybody. You know, you can't

not make any one person unhappy. You gotta make everybody happy with what they are. Don't try to make the, don't make a game that no one loves it, it will fail. You can't design for everybody. You can't not make any one person unhappy. You got to make everybody happy with what they are. Don't make a game that no one dislikes. Make a game that everybody can love. The details are where the players fall in love with the game. That one of the things about putting the diversity in makes people see things that connect with it. Allow your players to have a sense of ownership.

Customization is important. Part of making customization important is giving people options that allow them to do things that they can connect with. Design the component for the audience it's intended for, you know, that you have to think in terms of, I want all the different people out there to like my thing. So you have to consciously design components for a wide breadth of diversity and be more afraid of boring your players and challenging them. You know, the biggest reason people sometimes stop doing diversity is people sort of scare them, like somehow doing diversity

will make it harder for you or drive people away, and that is not the case. That is simply not the case. Magic has pushed really hard to be diverse, and it has only made us a bigger game and better game. I'm telling you that diversity is a tool to improve your game and give you a wider breadth and a wider audience.

Anyway, guys, I hope you enjoyed today's talk. It's an important one. But I'm now at work, so we all know what that means. This is the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic.

I'll see you guys next time.