Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #732: Annie Sardelis

Episode Date: April 17, 2020

In this podcast, I'm interviewing Annie Sardelis, one of the members of the Creative team.

I'm not pulling on my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another episode of Drive to Work Coronavirus Edition. Okay, so I've been interviewing people because it's hard for me to do that in my car, but I can do that at home. So on the phone right now, I have Annie Sardellis. So Annie, say hi. Oh, hi. I'm Annie. So Annie, let's explain to the people what you do. What part of R&D do you work in? Oh, okay. So I am a game designer on the world-building team.

That means I help create the original worlds and characters for the tabletop card game. I'm not a game designer in the sense that I put the text on the cards outside of the flavor text and card names most of the time. So I work mostly developing the new worlds with other members of the team, hang out with design and art teams to create resources for everyone and just make up a lot of fun new stuff. So how did you end up at Wizards? Oh, okay. Previously, I was working at another smaller game company

where we were working on card games, and I got to do a little bit of everything. So smaller companies, you sort of end up dabbling in a lot of different things. So not only did I do, like, card design and testing, I also wrote art descriptions for all of the card art that we would release. And that ended up being quite the job i would come to discover insofar that it was literally someone's actual entire job at witnesses of the coast and um i decided like i saw a post on twitter basically for the job opening and i was like actually i really want to get deeper into the world building of card games.

Like, that's what appealed to me the most. So I sent an application and just ended up working at Wizards, I guess. So one of the things that I'm sort of curious for you to talk a little bit about is how much time and energy goes into making a world. So when we decide to make a brand new world, we won't talk about an existing world since all the stuff you've worked on that's

new isn't out yet, but we'll talk more in the general sense. What do you need to do to make a new world? Like, what happens on your side of the wall to make a new world? Oh, wow. So, yeah, we work, like, super far in advance, as I'm sure everyone

knows. So, I guess, like, the first step is that there's just like these seeds of things that we wanted to do either from a design side or a world building side. Like, oh, we really want to be able to show off three color things or factions or tribes or this culture that we haven't seen yet. And, you know, shown in the context of magic. And so there's this huge planning process of, like, when can we get to all of these awesome worlds we want to do? And that happens, like, really, really early. And then they plan out, like, all the big sweeping story decisions then as well. And then from that, when we have, like, a timeline of, like, all right, this is coming out, and this, and this, and this, we can finally start to do world building proper,

which is just a lot of meetings and a lot of figuring out, like, what all we need for the set, which mostly involves, like, environments, characters, like, creatures, like what kind of architecture, like the whole shebang. We have to talk about every aspect of it, and also the aspects as they relate to the game design. Like, if this world is introducing a new tribe, like, what do they look like? What do they do?

What's their culture? Do they have a religion? And these meetings can go on, I guess, they go on for like six months or more where we're just like talking about all these different aspects. And then it sort of culminates in the World Guide asset, which just has all this information in one place. It's like a big go-to resource for everyone at the company to check out. And developing that world guide involves calling in artists for, like, the art push,

working with the art director, working with design. We always work with design, like, constantly. So let me explain something for the audience they might not be aware of, is the creative team really has sort of two sections to it, right? That there is the people that sort of are in charge of the visuals and the people that are in charge of the words, maybe not for a better term. Although the word people also do all the cosmology and like what is the world like? Yeah. And you work on the word side.

Yeah, a bit, yeah. We would just, like, provide some words to, like, the art people, and then they just sort of go with it. Like, in the end, it is whatever the artist or art director decides, like, a goblin looks like on this plane is, you know, what it ends up looking like. We might just tell them, like, oh, it's like a cold plane, so maybe they have fur or something.

But in the end, how it looks is the artist. But a lot of what your team does is, okay, this is the world. These are the things that have to exist in the world. And you guys build a lot of the cosmology of what's the relationship

like and how do the people function? What are the... You're coming up with a lot of, hey, this is a real world. How do the people function, right? Yeah, definitely. The worlds all have to be internally consistent. Things have to make sense. That's what makes worlds satisfying, especially fantasy worlds and game worlds.

You can really like see that these characters like live here and time passes here and things are important and it's sort of like we do end up answering a lot of like can we do this thing in this world questions which sort of reminds me of like why you might go ask like a play designer something's like oh can we make this it might like break something and they tell play designer or something. It's like, oh, can we make this? It might, like, break something. And then they tell you that, like, mechanically, where they're like, oh, well, can we do this? Like, can dragons, like, breathe underwater here? And then, like, we'll get asked that question.

You'll be like, uh, I don't know here. You know, so it is a lot of logistics, yeah. So a good example, I'll just use a recent example, is not that you particularly worked on this stuff, but Throne of Eldraine, one of the questions we keep having is, where was the line? Like, what was acceptable? So, for example, you know, we made the gingerbread golem, you know?

It's like, oh, is that okay? Are there walking, talking gingerbread golems here? And then, you know, are talking animals okay? Like, we had to figure out where the line was, and so we'd come and talk with the creative team and say, okay, can we do this? are talking animals okay? Like, we had to figure out where the line was, and so we'd come and talk with the creative team and say, okay, can we do this? You know, can there be a midnight ball? Yeah, sure, there'd be a midnight ball.

Can there be a talking cat? Maybe there shouldn't be a talking cat, you know. Mm-hmm. And, yeah, that stuff is important for world consistency, but also, like, we go to a lot of places, and, like, no one place can really just have everything you'd ever want to see, you know? Like, we may even return to the world, or, you know, so it's all about, like, making that call, like, for what's best for the card set, you know? Yeah, actually, one of the things that is important is, it's not only what is there,

it's also what's not there. I know you guys spend a lot of time saying on this world, these things don't exist. These creatures aren't, you know, to try to make the worlds feel different, we don't want every world to just have the same creatures. Right? Yeah. Yeah, I know. I feel that personally sometimes, too. There is, like,

this long span of magic sets with just, there weren't any goblins. And I'm like, oh my gosh, where did they go? And it's like, well, they became devils. And I'm like, no. But so yeah, I'm always holding out for new goblin friends. Yeah, one of the things that's funny is

there's this pressure between wanting the worlds to feel different so they're unique, but wanting to have enough continuity that people can build decks between worlds. And so, I know there's that constant tension. Like, we want enough goblins, but not too many goblins.

So, I thought maybe we'd talk about a project that you and I worked on together that is out. I know a lot of your projects, you and I are working on some stuff that's not out yet, but we'll talk about a project that is out. So, Unsanctioned. So, Unsanctioned is the box set we released a month or two ago. That it was a reprint of a whole bunch of Silver Border cards, except there were 16 brand new cards in it.

And I was in charge of the design of the cards, and you were in charge of the creative of the cards. So, I thought we'd talk a little bit about some of these cards because there's some fun stories. Yeah, for sure. It was also a really fun opportunity to make some like legendary characters that I know everyone has been like holding out for. And I hope that we were able to deliver on those, you know. Well, let's start with the one that I thought probably had the most requests of any legendary

thing I've ever had, which is a legendary squirrel. So A. Cornelia, fashionable filter. Okay, so, I think when I turned this card over, it was actually called, A. Cornelia was my name, but I think I called it Goth Squirrel was my original name.

Oh, yeah, yeah. It was a play on, like, the Goth Girl. Yeah. I had hoped to keep some of that aesthetic in, like like her outfit as you can see like she's also a black squirrel and you know back in maryland we had a lot of black squirrels whatever it's cute um and uh her outfit actually takes a bit of cues from the what are they called like the spy people from you know oh yeah the sneak the agents of sneak yeah the agents yeah we forgot the watermarks. Yeah, we forgot the watermarks,

by the way. We forgot the watermarks. Oh, don't mention it. But anyway, Annie Cornelia should have had a sneak watermark. I mean, she's flavored as if she's part of the sneak, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, she does borrow some of the looks from that. And yeah, she's just got this awesome vault of just golden acorns. I'm looking forward to, like, yeah, we need some, like, token acorns or something. I made a gold now.

Yeah, there's this. So, for example, I make the card. So this was part of a cycle. We made a cycle of enemy-colored legendary creatures for the set. And so I wanted a squirrel lord. Black and green made sense, because that's where the squirrels are in the Silverboard sets,

and the Blackboard sets, too. Okay, so I make a card. So what happened? So I think for all these, I gave it some name as a possibility, and then you have to evaluate. So walk through how these get named. Oh, okay.

So, yeah, this is basically the one set where i led the creative text and yeah it is a huge collaborative process because uh you know design has a certain joke in mind or like a pet name they gave the card in design and you know there is something to it like if you like the name that means there's definitely something to it and uh we gathered other internal submissions for the names. For larger sets, there's, like, an outsource. Like, there's a huge team of awesome writers that submit stuff. But for these, I think we kept them internal.

And just whoever had a good sense of humor around the office, I just sort of wrangled them by email and said, like, send in stuff. Like, send in your best puns. It's okay. It's an unset. So after getting those, I just sort of, like, went through, and you sent in, like, a ton of puns. And I'm just like, oh, my God, there's so many.

So it was a challenge. But I made it through, put a bunch of puns on cards, and we ended up, you know, I just, you just try to go with whatever sounds catchy. Some jokes, you just got to keep them them like Alexander Climelton yes I have no idea what else I could possibly be calling outside of that so um and when it comes to the flavor text it it is really tricky to like judge jokes and humor um I don't feel like I'm the best judge, but I was the judge for the task. And I think that we got a decent number of files of stuff we picked or like clever, like clever nods to things.

Like especially the Surgeon General Commander, it's like a lot going on in it. I think that was one of your submissions. Yeah. So let's talk about Surgeon Commander General. I call him Surgeon Commander since the generals crossed off, but yeah. Yeah. Pause Commander, yeah. Okay, so he came about because we wanted a five-color legendary commander for Host and Augment. That's how he came about. So, okay, so I think the name, I think I did turn in this name, right? Yes. So, okay, so I think the name, I think I did turn in this name, right? Yes.

So, but the creative, so how did you figure out what it looked like? Like, you worked, who was, Dawn was the art director, right? Yeah, Dawn was, yeah. So, Dawn Mirren had done the art direction for Unstable, and so she did Unsanctioned, and so talk a little bit, how did the picture come about? So you know it's Surgeon Commander. Yeah, again, this one did borrow from Unstable. Unstable is just such an awesome resource for funny stuff.

And also this one leads right into Augment. And so I just picked some of my favorite types of animals. Like I really think wombats are super cute. So the character has a wombat head and like a chameleon tail is really distinctive. You'd see that from a mile away if you were picking on animal tail and you know, gotta have bat wings on.

So did you pick the animal parts? Yeah, I picked the animal parts. Okay. And so like the little sign in the background, it just like remind me of those like doctor signs where it's like, oh park. Okay. And so, like, the little sign in the background, it just, like, reminded me of those, like, doctor signs where it's like, oh, like, how much does it hurt? Or, like, how do you feel? And I figured with all these, you know, mashup monsters,

they would, you know, they might have some mixed feelings about how they feel sometimes. So it helps to have a surgeon commander help them out. It's funny because Mark Gottlieb, who's one of the designers, loves wombats. And Magic made a wombat many, many, many years ago and we've never made another one. And he was very

excited. I actually thought he might have been involved in there being a wombat, but it turns out he was not. You just like wombats. Yeah, well, what do we have? We have like a rabid wombat. Yeah, rabid wombat's the one wombat, so. Yeah, we need some fluffy friends, so here's one. So this one has flavor text.

Oh, so this is interesting. I think I said to you that we had to reference, one of the jokes about the card is that the template's wrong because we need it to be five color, but that's not actually how we write it. That normally you would say tap add one man of any color, but we had tap add white, blue, black, red, or green to make it a five color commander.

So I think I do. Yeah, this is also a text that you sent in because, yeah, I was just thinking, like, it's going to be honestly, like, pretty tough to, like, tell the joke here unless you just thinking like, it's going to be honestly like pretty tough to like tell the joke here unless you're like really, really into like looking for this sort of thing.

So this is one where it's sort of like explaining the joke, but it's, I think it's very helpful because you know, as like someone who doesn't know the intricacies of what makes a commander a certain color, I'd be like, what is creative templating? Like, what do you mean? Like, the crossed out name? And I'd be like, oh, you know. And then I would just... Oh, so let's hear.

The other card I want to talk about is Stet. Yeah. Because Stet has my... Stet has what I think is one of the most subtle jokes in the entire set, which is you're doing. So let's talk a little bit. So Stet is our... We had never made a dragon.

We'd never made a silver water dragon before. And so I said to my team, okay, give me a dragon that does something dragons don't normally do. And Ari came up with this idea of the proofreader. So, okay, you get,

you get Sted. I think I just, I named it Sted, but you, you, you did the rest of the name. I think we had like Sted dragon something. Yeah. Well, first it was like a dragon and we're like oh my god like what like what kind of dragon is this

that has like the white identity also we're just like well it could just be a white dragon and those breathe ice and like on a red card and it's like yeah let's go with it and so i was like how do we justify this ice and then i'm like oh it's actually really useful as a tie-in to its mechanic like its mechanic group moves the first letter uh from something oh yes uh right moves first letter straight up yeah it deletes the first letter of a target permanent which is nuts and so if you have these little mice co-workers, if you delete them off, they become ice. So here we got a white dragon breathing frost breath on some mice turning into ice,

and it's an editor. It's a bureaucrat, like the past editor. So one of the things that's funny is you guys will do the art, and the artists take, what, seven weeks or something to draw the picture? And meanwhile meanwhile we're working on the cards and

we can make changes as long as we match the art and I remember at one point we were talking about maybe changing the deleting letter and you're like no no no the ice becomes ice it can't change there's been a crisis so

okay so I'm going to ask you about another card okay I'm going to ask you about flavor There's been a crisis. So, um... Okay, so, uh... I'm gonna ask you about another card and see if... Okay, I'm gonna ask you about Flavor Judge. Oh, okay. Let me pull that one up. So Flavor Judge... Do you remember where Flavor Judge came from? Yeah.

Flavor Judge is the chicken referee. Right. So we got the art for the box, the key art. So the art that goes on the box. And it was a squirrel boxing with a goblin. And then there was a chicken who was the referee. And I thought the referee chicken was the best thing on the whole picture. So we decided we were going to make that a card.

Yeah, that key art was already in, I think, before I got hired, and I thought that was a brilliant idea. It's just lean into the whole unset in a box, unsanctioned, so unsanctioned fighting. We got Chicken Referee. And there's also the one land.

Oh, the Underdome. Yeah, the Underdome. Yeah, that was the last minute. That was... We were only supposed to do 15 cards. And then to make the decks work, I needed a land that had for any color, and I didn't want to use City of Ass,

so Gavin okayed getting a new art. So we made... Last minute made Thunderdome. Underdome, sorry. Yeah, I just think it's cute that we have a little bit of like unsanctioned continuity lore going on with you. Yes. Okay, so the flavor text is interesting on this one.

So Flavor Judge, I believe the name, that's the name we submitted was Flavor Judge. Oh, real quickly, just so they know this. So the way it worked was Annie and I sat down, and we had playtest names for all the cards. And then for Annie, I had a, so either it was names for all the cards and then for Annie I had either it was we really like

this name, try to keep it. We really don't like this name, you need to come up with another name or eh, maybe. And I think Flavor Judge was and we wanted to keep it because there's a format called Flavor Draft and the judge in Flavor Draft is called the Flavor Judge

so we were making reference. The mechanic is based on that format. But the Flavor Draft. And the judge in Flavor Draft is called the Flavor Judge, so we were making reference. The mechanic is based on that format. But the flavor text, do you remember the story of this flavor text? Oh, no, you could tell it. So the mechanic of the card is that you're asking an outside person, does this make sense? And so we knew we wanted flavor text

where someone's just describing something crazy. And I think we wrote like 40 of these. I mean, you ended up picking this one, right? Yeah, I actually don't quite remember the whole ordeal. It might have been a little bit late when it happened. Yeah, so what happened was we just thought of crazy things that could happen and then wrote. There's only two lines for flavor text. Another thing that happens in flavor text is

you only get so much space and so not only do you have to write it, but it has to fit in the space you have. So sometimes, like, oh. Yeah, this was a good one. Right, this was a two-liner. This was a good one where it didn't have space before and then, you know, you guys went in, fiddled around, and gave it some space, but yeah, because I think some,

I think this card didn't use that space on it. Oh, maybe, maybe. Okay. I think we made space so we could add the flavor text in. Yeah, always a good call, always a good call. Right, and this one is like some animated wall fighting a dinosaur. Yeah. Let's see, how about, oh, Circadian Night Owl.

Oh, I love him. I know that's my name because we spend a lot of time on that. I'm trying to think. So when you do it, let's talk a little bit about art descriptions. So how, I know you work with the art director. Explain how exactly how we do art descriptions. Okay. So in, you know, card development like towards towards the end of it

i guess like around set design time like the the designers identify like chunks of cards that they're ready to hand off for uh art that means they're like mostly done messing with them like the creature won't vastly get bigger like the card won't get deleted or something like that usually and um then uh the writer like the concept writer who someone like me and art director and the lead designer all like sit down in a room and then top line all the cards it takes a couple meetings to get through all of them usually and um you just talk about like well what is this card like what can it be and usually everyone has a copy of the world guide in front of them for reference so we'll like flip through to like different uh like factions or

creatures and be like oh this one's really cute like have we used this guy yet like let's put him in they could be there so like oh it should be that guy but he's getting crushed by a giant and it's like oh okay and you just try to like come up with the you know the most interesting fun thing it could be while also showcasing uh the world the best you can like make sure you're not doing like 20 bears as much as i'd love to do that too it's like usually you only have like one or two bears you know how how it goes. Only some of my bears. Yeah. And then after you're done top lining every single card, you just sit down and start writing the descriptions.

You say what plane it's on, like the location, the action, and sort of like the general mood of the piece. And then the art director takes a look at those, makes sure you're not doing anything crazy, and then they send them off to the artist for sketches. And that is sort of how it goes. Right, and... And you mentioned sketches, so what happens is, the art director

sends out to the artist, after so much time, I forget how much time they have, but they have to send back a sketch first, so that the art director can look and see, oh, is this going in the right direction or is there something happening that I need to make some adjustments on?

Mm-hmm. Do you look at sketches or is that just the art director? Oh, yeah. I review art, like, every morning. Like, the first thing I do is go check out what needs review. Okay. So the projects you're running, you do comment on the art? Yeah.

And it's just on our side side since we are not the art director who gets to make lots of like the aesthetic calls and compositional calls it's like we have to say like okay their feet need to be on the ground this guy doesn't fly like put him down or like oh like actually this guy needs these

tattoos because that's what this certain faction has and they'll have forgotten to put those or something. So just, like, small comments to make sure it's, you know, staying in line with our guidelines that we make. Yes. Another thing that will happen sometimes is somebody will make up something and you're like,

oh, no, no, look at the style guide. That's not how the swords look. Oh, look at the style guide. It has to be a sword-like style guide. Oh, yeah, and, like, what's not how the swords look. Go look at the style guide. It has to be a sword like the style guide. Oh, yeah, and like what hand people hold certain weapons in. Let me tell you, some of these people, like, they know exactly who is left and right handed in

the multiverse. Yeah. Oh, no. Change the sword hand. So, stuff like that. Okay, so we're almost out of time. So, my... What So what do you do that you don't think the average person is in the idea that somebody spends time doing that? Oh, boy. Okay. I guess this is a bit of a sentimental thing not like a super like shocking crazy thing but um

just like really you know really giving it a hundred percent on like every single card um like it really isn't just like the like the big old like bomb crazy like rare cards and like awesome characters you already know it's like every single card i i am trying to pour my heart into and like add a little something for everyone like whether it be like uh something cute or something funny or like maybe the flavor text is like really really resonates with you or tells you something new it's um yeah i i honestly didn't think you know like when you know you just like look at there's so many magic cards like there's so many and you're just like how can someone give so much time to each one of these cards but really there's like a huge team of people working on every single little piece and making sure that each piece has a reason to exist and can possibly be someone's favorite thing.

So, um, that is a cheesy answer, but. Okay. So, um, when you're doing your flavor text,

do you, do you have the art or not when you do flavor texts? Uh, yes, we do. Um, and if not the final art, something pretty close to it. So what, we do. Um, and if not the final art, something pretty close to it.

So what, what is something about, cause we talked a lot about names and we talked about, about doing concepting. Um, we didn't talk too much about flavor text. So like what, what is the biggest challenge of flavor text? Oh, the biggest challenge. Yeah. I haven't read a lot of text stuff, but I guess it's like feeling like you're either writing something like really cheesy and trying not to like self censor yourself I guess or like reading something

that you're just like oh like that's like so like epic sounding and like you know not going like oh that makes it cheesy but going like oh that actually makes it epic you know like finding that line between like cheese and badass is like, you know, pretty hard to do. So are you pro or anti-pun in Blackboard or Magic?

I am pro-pun in moderation. In moderation, okay. Yeah. It's funny, I used to do, back in the day day I used to write a lot of flavor texts I don't do it anymore but I would always get the pun quotient higher than it is

currently because I would just submit a lot of puns oh yeah like sometimes there's like this middle period where the playtest name

is like called like blue uncommon too and so I'll give it a little bit of a better name before sending it to an artist and a lot of those times

they will be puns. But I do expect them to change as they get more real. So, yeah. Yeah, actually, it's funny. One of the things that often the creative person does is during playtesting, they change the file not to give the final thing, but just to, like, give the feel of it so that people play, they get the sense of the world.

Mm-hmm. And one of the things I love to do when I have my creative team is I like them to give me a list of names that make sense for the world, and sometimes we'll design cards to them. Oh, yeah, definitely. Like, a lot of my favorite cards from Innistrad,

Jenna was my creative person, Jenna Hellens in the creative team, and Jenna gave me names, and some of my favorite cards from Innistrad, Jenna was my creative person, Jenna Hellens in the creative team. And Jenna gave me names, and some of my favorite cards from the original Innistrad were like, Jenna just came up with this cool name, and I'm like, okay, we're making this card. And then it just turned out, we designed it and turned it into a cool card. That's awesome. I hope I get to do that sometime in the future set I work on. I'm sure you'll get it.

If you've been on one of my teams, I do that all the time. I love doing that. That sounds good. So anyway. I'm sure you'll get it. If you've been on one of my teams, I do that all the time. I love doing that. That sounds good. So anyway, I'm almost to work. So any last thoughts as far as something about magic? One of the reasons

I'm trying to interview different people is to show them how many different people work on this game. I don't think people really understand outside the building,

like, the number, the amount of eyeballs, the amount of energy that goes into making a magic card. Is there some aspect that, like, I don't know, I'm sort of curious as a final touch of something that you would like people to know about, hey, somebody's doing this. I guess that uh yeah i guess that there's like a lot of writing on like a lot of writing these concept

things that is unseen writing um but is still you know real and happening and people still come to our team to ask like logistical questions about like characters and stuff like that it's just there's there's a lot of writing happening is all i'm saying even though it may not be player facing i guess yeah i mean that's a good point you do a lot a lot of writing which goes up in the world guide and a lot of different places but the public doesn't see it and so um i mean it the result, I guess the Planeswalkers Guide to Eldraine actually, like,

has so many facts from the World Guide that I don't think players would have got to see otherwise. So, go check that out if you get a chance. Okay.

Well, I want to thank you, Annie. This was fun having you on. But I can see I'm almost to my den. So, we got to wrap up. So,

I just want to thank you very much. And, as we all know, this is the end of my gotta wrap up. So I just want to thank you very much. And as we all know, this is the end of my drive to work, so instead of talking magic with Annie, it's time for me to be making magic. So I want to thank everybody for coming, thanks Annie for

being here, and we'll see you all next time. Bye-bye.