Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #739: The Professor

Episode Date: May 15, 2020

In this podcast, I talk to Brian Lewis (aka The Professor) of Tolarian Community College.

I'm not pulling out of the driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another Drive to Work Coronavirus Edition. So I've been doing a lot of fun interviews since I'm stuck at home. So today I have Brian Lewis, a.k.a. The Professor. Oh, hello. Thank you so much for inviting me to your not Drive to Work, Drive to Work episode, Mark. Well, I'm doing a bunch of these these days. Okay, so what I wanted to do today is I want to sort of walk through, talk about all about you and your past. So here's a question I've been asking a lot of people to start with, which is, how did you get into magic?

What was your introduction to magic? My introduction to magic was I started back in high school, which for me was right around the time of Revised. I missed Beta and Unlimited, but I came in at Revised and it was, believe it or not, to meet a girl that I liked. And she played Magic the Gathering in a group of people who played on the quad during recess and lunch. And I was in high school. I liked this girl. And she played Magic. So learning how to play Magic the Gathering seemed like a really great way to be able to have an excuse to talk to her and socialize.

And also along the way, I picked up Magic the Gathering along with my first girlfriend. And then later, first heartbreak. Ah, okay. Though that relationship did not last, the Gathering, along with my first girlfriend, and then later first heartbreak. Though that relationship did not last, my love for Magic the Gathering certainly did. So I came in around revised,

and my first job that I ever got not too long after was to be, I worked during the summer to be able to save up money to buy boxes of Ice Age when Ice Age came out, and I would have never gotten that first job if I didn't have a motivation to want to buy as many boxes of Ice Age as I could. So that was the era. Revised Fallen Empires, Ice Age. That's my origin into magic. I remember it well.

Yes, yes. So that was, we're talking 94, right? I would assume, yes. I don't have the years memorized. I do know the sets. Well, Ice Age came out in 95, but 94 is when Revised came out. So if you started in Revised.

That sounds about right. When I was well into about a year of playing Magic, Ice Age coming out, it blew my mind. And I was just like i need to get this i want i just i i believe a friend of and and myself devised this plan that we're going to just buy as much as we can and spend the whole summer playing and that's why i was like all right i'm going to spend i don't know four six weeks working this job and i i have to put half in the bank that's the rule half goes in bank. And then the other half is mine to do whatever I want with.

And 100% of it went into literally Ice Age. Okay. Okay. So how do we get from you learning magic to try to talk to a girl to how did you start doing, you know, podcasting videos? And like, what was the beginning of that? Well, I went on hiatus after high school. I felt, you know, it was going off to college. And adults don't play magic, I naively thought.

And so I decided better sell off my magic collection. Big mistake. And my friend, actually, the one who had also gotten the summer job and that I played magic with, he said to me, don't sell your magic cards. You might want them someday. I said, adults don't play magic. And he said, no, no, no. But to take out and just remember, it was such a special thing that we did throughout high school at that point. He said, you're going to want it. I said, no way I I can get, you know, like just a great deal. Spoiler alert, it was not a great deal to just unload my magic collection.

And I did. And it wasn't until right around the time, just a little bit before original Innistrad came out, that that very same friend who I stayed lifelong friends with called me up and said, hey, you know what I just dug out of my mom's garage? My magic cards. come take a look and just holding his cards in my hand again i said we should go down and we should get a couple couple packs and just to open fun and maybe get one game just for fun and like that i was right back addicted again and getting right back into the world of magic and my wife took to magic like a fish takes to water. She grew up playing other nerdy games and she loved Final Fantasy games. And so as soon as mana and defense and attack was explained to her, she's like, yeah, I know all that stuff. And she loved it. So it was something we could do together. We found our local game

store and just became a part of that community. We started making friends who are still friends today, meeting people who met their significant others and best friends through Magic. And it was just this breath of wonderful fresh air into my adult life. And I felt so silly for having said and thought back as a teenager, adults don't play Magic. It actually fit even better as an adult, especially having the disposable income for it. And one thing that was special to me was trying to keep my cards in great condition. And I was obsessed with, even though I played with my cards, I wanted them to always feel as pack fresh as possible. And we had these wonderful things that we didn't have when I was a teenager called card sleeves and deck boxes made just for

magic. But some of them were better than others. And I began noticing, oh, wow, these sleeves split on me or these sleeves did not keep dust particles from getting in and making very minor imperfections in my precious, precious magic cards. And I just I went through the whole store's supply and I just learned everything about all of them. And it turned into one point where the owner was literally referring customers to me, where the customer would come in with questions about card sleeves and say, that guy over there, hey, hey, hey, Brian, they got some questions about Dragon Shield versus Ultra Pro or whatever. And I'd start talking. And I just decided, you know what, I should maybe make a video comparing all the brands that are at my

local game store and saying which ones are better at what and why. And it was just supposed to be you know what, I should maybe make a video comparing all the brands that are at my local game store and saying which ones are better at what and why. And it was just supposed to be one video. And I made that video and it did kind of well. And then someone said, hey, what about deck boxes? I went, oh yeah, I could do deck boxes. It was going to be two videos. And then someone said, what about play mats? Play mats? That's ridiculous. Play mats. What is there to say about a play mat? A play mat is a play mat. Well, that isn't entirely true. And also people don't know about washing and cleaning. Okay, I'll do one on play mats. What about binders? What about playing modern with just goblins for a couple of bucks? And suddenly I was doing a video a week and suddenly I was a YouTuber.

So how quickly did it go from your first video to you being a weekly video producer? Weekly was unexpected because keep in mind, I still had my job. I was teaching English at community college at the time. And this was just a hobby. But it was something I loved doing. I always was a, you know, I was an English major, which means I wanted to be an artist and a creator. But then I majored in English. So I

ended up teaching English, as is often usually the case. So I really got a thrill, not only from playing Magic again, but making these videos about Magic. And it didn't take long. I chronicled it in a video once where I had all the data and could go back and look, but it was within the first year of doing these videos, maybe six months, I was doing one video a week than two. And by the end of the first year, I was at two to three per week. And it was amazing how the topics kept unfolding. I kept thinking there's nothing more to say. And then suddenly there was a lot more to say. Suddenly it was, well, what about intro packs? How are they different than event decks? Oh, I can talk about that. Well, what about a fat pack? Is that good for me if I already have a big collection? What do you think of that? And

suddenly every product that gets made, whether it's an accessory or a new thing from Wizards, I was just kind of expected to do these reviews. And I loved it. It was just, I can't even describe the thrill for a failed artist, English professor, to suddenly have tens of thousands and then more and more people actually looking at the things I created. It was like a dream come true. It was. It has been a dream come true. So the name, Tolarian Community College, how did that come about? Tolarian Community College, well, I was a professor of English at a community

college. And we all know the Tolarian Academy was the finest academy for the wizards of the multiverse, Urza gathering all the future hope for the future of fighting the Phyrexians and just the best of the best, right? The Tolarian Academy. And I thought, well, you know, we're doing card sleeve reviews. We're not, we're not going to do the Phyrexians. We're not going to fight the Phyrexians, but you know, we're going over card sleeve reviews. So we're, we're the community college. We're on, we're on Tolaria East across the street from the mall. And I just leaned into that idea that I was a, you know, community college professor. And so now we're not necessarily the best. We're just going to talk about card sleeves. And I liked, I've always liked the kind

of humor of not being the best of being, you know, the, the community college as it were. So I leaned into that. So when, from the starting of the first video, how long before it was labeled Hilarion Community College? How early was that? Oh, that was the first, when you make a YouTube channel, you have to pick a name. Oh, okay. So the very first video. That was the name. Yeah. I didn't envision it. I literally envisioned it being just one video, but I did still have, because I was a creator. I mean, I've written novels that never got published. And when I was a kid, I made magazines about Nintendo games and stuff. And so I always wanted to do the full thing.

And I wanted that name, even though it was just going to be one video, to be the right reflection. And that first video is intentionally filmed as being like, I love those cheesy old 90s educational videos. And I just love that corny aesthetic. And I really thought that's how I'm going to create the video. The video was edited. It was, it was, I, I did several attempts at filming all the shots and writing the script and, and such. And so there was this overall vision for, even though it was just one video of, of it as a complete work. And yeah, I, I, I, I thought of some names.

I think one of my failed names was Urza's YouTube channel. You know, Urza has everything. Urza's Glasses, Urza's Weathervane, whatever. Urza's YouTube channel, why not? That was one. And believe it or not, it ended up someone else was thinking parallel. I honestly really thought Cardboard Crack was a great name. And I remember the owner of my local game store saying, no, don't do that. It's not PG and you

want everybody to be able to see these videos. And I said, oh, that's a good point. I'll go with Tolarian Community College then. And that's also been a thing is that I've always wanted the videos to be, we keep it PG or, yeah, PG. Every now and then I'll do a PG 13 innuendo, but that's

the length of it. And I like it being a channel that, that people can watch with their kids, that, that people can let their kids watch and not be afraid of. And, and so that was very formative early on my, my local game store and local game store owner was very instrumental in shaping the community aspect of Tolarian Community College, because that was my community there at the game store. So the professor, was that persona sort of baked in from the beginning, or did it evolve? Never. I never even occurred to me to say a name or have a character, ever. I just never named myself. I just didn't see that. It didn't seem relevant.

I figured it was just didn't see that. It didn't seem relevant. I figured it was just talk about the things. I think early on people called me Talarian and it was actually Wedge of the Mana Source who named me. Little known fact, but it was one day, it was when everybody was doing the Ice Bucket Challenge. You remember that? I did one. Yeah. And you had to, you were supposed to tag other people. So Wedge went and did the ice bucket challenge and he tagged, and he just said the professor of Tularean community college. And Wedge was much bigger than me in those days. And I was really freaked out that, you know, I got such a shout out. Uh, and, uh, uh, I really loved the way he said it just, you know, that feeling like, like a bell rings in your head. And when he said that, the professor of Tolarian Community

College, I thought that's really cool. That's the idea is I'm the professor of Tolarian Community College. And then I just kind of casually referred to myself that way, not even as a like hidden identity, but just I would say in videos, oh, I know what you're asking, but professor, isn't this how it is? And then it just kind of took off as the moniker. And I've never really tried to hide my name in the first Q&A I did at 20,000 subscribers. I was like, the number one question is, what's your name? And I'm like, it's Brian. I don't try and hide it. But, you know, it just became a nice persona.

And it just fits me like a glove. I really enjoy it. So here's obscure Wizards trivia for you. Yes. There was a Brian Lewis that worked at Wizards in the early, early days of Magic. Really? What did he do? What did he do?

Yeah. Was he in creative? Something in the creative department? Nope. He was our very first lawyer. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay.

So anyway, a little opposite then. He was successful and well-educated there. Okay, so walk me through how you started from, okay, just making random video to becoming somebody that people knew who you were. What was that sort of experience like? I remember the first time I got recognized and it was on accident and it was my own friend at the game store who did not realize because in the early days, the very early days, like the first three to four months of the channel, I wasn't on screen really because it was just,

I didn't have a good camera and it was just a very basic camera pointed down at the product and so it's like my hands and and he was he was I was joking about like fat packs or something and he said oh you sound like this youtuber I like it uh he's talking about how how fat packs are really just for for for this purpose and not this other purpose and you sound just like him I thought he he was joking. And I go, ha ha ha. That's funny. And he's like,

no, you should check it out. It's Tulare and community college. And I'm like, you know, that's me. Right. And he didn't.

And that was the first time to my recollection that anyone that I realized other people were watching despite the metrics and the numbers. And then once I started appearing on camera, which was within the first year as well, I mean, anytime I'm in a game store, a GP, Magic Fest, any type of Magic-related event, it's without a doubt that I'm going to get recognized. And yeah, except that nobody at my local game store cared

because they had already known me at that point for a while. And so I remember Jimmy Wong of the Command Zone. I invited him up for a pre-release and he came and he drove up from L.A. because I was like, my local game store, you got to come pre-release here. They're going to do a revised draft, revised booster draft after after it. And he was down and he drove up from L.A. to San Francisco and he came in and everyone's like, oh my god, it's Jimmy Wong. And I was like, hey, why don't you ever, like they wanted his picture and thing. And I said to everybody, sorry, you don't ever

ask me for my picture. They're like, yeah, we know you. We don't care. We know you. You're normal. It doesn't matter. But elsewhere, yeah, I'll totally get recognized and such. The next big part for you is you start doing the videos. They start getting some acclaim. People know who you are. Okay. Let's talk about

from it being a hobby to being your career. So how did that come about? Well, it's a sad statement on higher education in America these days. But the truth of it is, is that it became more profitable to make YouTube videos reviewing card sleeves than to teach literary analysis and rhetorical analysis at the college level. I mean, I was in California where 75% of all college instructors are adjunct or part-time, which is done so that you don't have health benefits and you have to reapply for your job every semester and you never know what you're going to get. And so I was teaching at two, three, one semester, four different community colleges. You put a full time paycheck together from part-time work. No sick days, no vacation days. Like people would

say, are you working this summer? Like summer classes? I'm like, yeah, I got a summer class. They're like, too bad. I'm like, what do you mean too bad? That means I get paid this summer. I don't know how I'd go three months without pay. That's wonderful. But I would never have a sick day or anything like that. We paid for health insurance out of pocket.

And I'm teaching, my wife is also a, she's a professor of geography and she's doing the same thing. And as the videos took off, there's some revenue coming in. And I came to my audience and I said to them, I can't do both. And what I wanted to do was I presented them with how much I got paid per class. And I said, this is the number. I forget it now. It's in the old video. I said, this is the number that I get per class. If we can raise this much by Patreon, I can trade, I can take one less class and then be able to make three videos a week. And they quadrupled that number in one day. And so I got to quit one of

the two colleges that I was teaching at. And suddenly I was doing part-time. It was just overnight. I just wanted one class paid for. And they raised four times what I wanted. And so, okay, I guess I'm quitting. I had two colleges I was regularly teaching at, a good one and a bad one. And I quit the bad one and I kept the good one. And then I was a part-time YouTuber. And so the community support and them saying like, yeah, we would love to chip in a dollar to be able to have you do this instead of

literary analysis. And it was wonderful. And that's when I knew that I could build something from this. And I never quite believed I could become full-time until it finally happened that everything had grown to the point where I actually got cut from the good college where my classes, you needed 24 students enrolled. I had 18 in one and 20 in the other for the fall semester or spring semester, I think it was. And I said, sorry, you don't have the minimum enrollment two days before the semester begins. We're canceling the classes. You don't get paid. And I said, well, what else? You've got a replacement class for me? No. Well, it's two days before the semester starts. I can't just go to another college. And they said, well, what else? You've got a replacement class for me? No. Well, it's two days before the semester starts.

I can't just go to another college. And they said, too bad. I said, I've been teaching here 10 years. They said, well, reapply in the fall. And I realized looking at the numbers that it didn't matter that they cut me because at that point, the YouTube channel through ad revenue, through Patreon, merch sales, all that stuff. I didn't. I was like, OK, it stinks, but I'll be okay. And then I just decided to go full-time.

I didn't need it anymore. I told my viewers, hey, I'm revamping the Patreon. And they supported that. And it just became a full-time business by me getting cut from the college that I'd worked at 10 years because I had 20 students enrolled instead of 24 for the fall

and such. And I was just like, all right, I guess I'm full time now. So about how many videos do you produce a week on average? On average, three videos per week. Some weeks, maybe I'll take a day off. I took a day off last week. I did two. But some weeks I'm going crazy. I'll do five. But on average, I like to shoot for three. I like to do Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, though. That's been becoming more just nebulous lately when I've noticed people don't care about the day it goes up. So I'll do about three a week, yeah. Okay.

So one of the things that I want to talk about is I think there's this belief that somehow there's some adversarial relationship between you and wizards. And, I mean, you're independent like obviously you're your own voice and you give your own opinion and like yeah um but uh something i wanted to sort of bring up and talk with you about a little bit is like we love having you around i mean i'm not saying you never you can never be a thorn inside from time to time but you know one of the things that's important to wizards is, hey, having a robust community building videos and making content is amazing. It's great for us, you know?

And I mean, that's something, I mean, what was your take on your relationship with Wizards? That's sweet to hear. I think it's also different because I think I can, like, I can be a GP and bump into one person at Wizards who has a big, genuine smile on their face and shake my hand and another person who maybe they were instrumental in a product I didn't like and maybe they'll be a little less happy to see me.

I feel like it ebbs and flows over the years too. We're going on six, seven years now. And so I think it depends. But I don't – I mean I love Magic the Gathering. It's changed my life. And for the better, it changed my life in high school. I mean, in all honesty, all the jokes about, yeah, I did meet my first girlfriend through Magic the Gathering. And that really means a lot. But but also, what I didn't say in this episode so far as I also met this social group in high school. I had a rough time in adolescence. I was alone. I was friendless. I had a lot of anxiety issues and some bad stuff going on at home. And when I got to every day come in and have people who maybe they didn't become lifelong friends just yet, but they were people I could talk to and socialize with and escape into this great game with. I mean, Magic the Gathering saved my life. And then it gave me a brand new one at a

point where I thought I was in a dead end job that was never going to so much as give me a sick day off. I used to wake up terrified of what would happen if I got hit by a car and broke a leg and needed to go into the hospital. I was like, my job would just move on without me 10 years. They didn't care about me and what's going to happen. How can I provide for my family? And now I have this beautiful dream come true and it's the best game in the world. And I love the people who make it. And that's wizards of the coast. That doesn't mean that I don't disagree, but I disagree from what a lot of people don't see. I always hate it when I, when I do do a negative review or a critical video. And a lot of people say like, yeah, way to give it to them or

go get them. And I think you realize I love them and the game, right? I just want it to be better. I don't want to destroy anything, but it's me saying, I think this is an area, it's like saying to a friend, I think you could do area, it's like saying to a friend, I think you could do better here. And I love you. And that's why I'm saying it. And it comes from a place of love. And I want to strive for tough but fair.

I like Roger Ebert. I was a big fan growing up of Roger Ebert. I read all his articles and I just loved his reviews. He loved movies. He loved cinema. He loved the industry. And he would trash films sometimes in his reviews, but he wasn't happy to do it. He was just being honest. And that's what I strive for. And I think

that there have been times, honestly, and I think you and I have talked about this in a few DMs sometimes where, you know, maybe I was being unfair and maybe I, I, I, I, maybe was a little more vicious than I should have been, uh, in some of my comments. And I don't want to do that. I am an entertainer and I do need to make jokes. And if it's a product that I think there's a mistake, I might make a joke. And I get how that can sting sometimes. And I get why, like whoever made the dual deck that I thought did not work well maybe doesn't want to shake my hand. I get that. But I do love Wizards. And I do love this game.

And I think I've brought a lot of people into it and kept a lot of people in it. And so I do think I serve a good purpose. It can hurt sometimes. This year has been great. I mean, I, I, this year, I don't know what happened. Like I get to have you on, on and, and several other people from Wizards, whether it's R&D or other departments. And, and that it's been a lot of radio silence in all honesty over the years. And there were times where that was rough because it felt like, and I understood it, but it's still rough because, you know.

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that's interesting, I mean. Yeah. I've been doing this for a long time and I think I've gotten a pretty thick skin in that it's hard to have the position I have with the interaction with the public that I get and not sort of, like a lot of my job is people are going to give criticism and I'm supposed to listen to it because the criticism I mean not that every

criticism necessarily needs to be acted on but a lot of it hey there's valid complaints and you know our job is to try to keep making the game better um and I like like you said if I think you're unfair I won't publicly say it it, but I'll message you or something. And I go, really? You and I will go back and forth sometimes. And I'm like, did you think about this or think about that? I've always appreciated that, actually. Like I said, you know, the saying is silence breaks the heart.

The thing that's been the worst over the years has been feeling when you feel on the outskirts of things or when you feel otherwise like just, you know, and I get it too. I totally understand why maybe there's a point where if I am saying, hey, don't buy this product maybe, or hey, this decision was really bad. I can see why it's like, well, don't put that, don't promote that guy. And I get that. Or don't even maybe talk to that guy. But I, I, I've always appreciated that you would slide into a DM every now and then and be like, are you kidding me? Or, or even better, have you considered this? And that I appreciate because I definitely don't think I'm always right. And I always say to my viewers, even though they don't always listen, I say, the thing that matters is you. This is my opinion and my perspective. And I want you to, if you buy

anything, even a product I don't like, and you walk away saying, I love this, then I'm happy. And I just don't want people to buy something and then be disappointed, whether it's card sleeves that don't work or there's a million magic and and maybe you buy one and it doesn't meet your needs and and uh i want people to always feel like their money was well spent and that's that's my end goal not for people to agree with me and whenever a viewer writes me and says hey you said this was bad i bought it and i love it i say i'm so happy you love it i'm not i'm not like you're wrong no it's a game have fun have You have fun. You're doing it right. But yeah, I think we've both been building a better relationship.

I mean, here I am. I mean, this is a huge honor being on your podcast. And am I the first magic YouTuber you've had on? Well, the funny thing is right after I interview you, I'm interviewing Megan Maria. Well, who are you going to post first? I think you're going to be posting the same day. Okay. It's like the same day. Okay. It's like a theme day. Okay.

But, yeah, you know, and I think there's also, it's good for wizards to have organic creators. I believe that, like, you've, and it's good for wizards to have inorganic creators, and it's good to have people in between who sometimes are organic and sometimes inorganic, and so it's good to have people in between who sometimes are organic and sometimes inorganic. And so it's a nice spectrum.

But at the end of the day, I love you guys. I love your game. I only want it to do well. And I only want it to be better. And if I'm ever being unfair, everyone is allowed to call me on it. But make sure you tell me why. Like, that's what I used

to, when I taught literary analysis, every interpretation is, is that is fine, but there's interpretations where you cannot point to your evidence and there's ones where you can. And so we're not saying your interpretation is invalid. We're saying you're not able to back it up with evidence from the text. And so like, you can call me on, on it and i'm very happy to hear it but point point to the evidence and and we can talk and i i love that and i love you guys and i love magic i don't know i mean that comes through one of the things i've always enjoyed i mean you and i've known each other for a while is yeah i can see you love magic i love magic you know i mean like uh it's it's a great bond and and you know,

like I said, from time to time, you'll say things I don't agree with and I'll let you know that I don't agree with them, but, you know, I respect that,

like, I think everybody has a right to their opinion and all of us are really just trying to sort of make magic the best game it can be and I do get

when you're being critical, you're not like, you're like, you know, you can do better, Wizards. That's how I get it when you're being critical. And once again you're like you know you can do better wizards that's how i get it uh when you're being critical um and once again wizards is not i mean we're a lot of people so like you know i can understand some random right some other person might be upset that you

said something but my whole take on you is i i i think you're a great addition to the game i i think that uh you know you make a lot of great content and it brings people to the game and makes people enjoy the game. And hey, that's all good stuff. That makes me really happy to hear that because that's really what I'm striving for. And one thing I'll say is this, I've said this, I don't know if I've said this to you specifically before,

but 90% of my criticism comes down to feeling like things that would otherwise help players access the game is is not being is being made difficult and so like a lot of my stuff comes down to gosh darn it we want to play this game and and and this has made it difficult uh or or otherwise uh you know an obstacle towards towards more people playing and gosh darn it i want to spend my money on magic i want to get magic i want to play magic all i want to do is play this game why are you making this more difficult than it has to be and if that's your your loudest critic is is screaming that he loves

your game and and you're not letting him play it as easily as he would like you know you that's that's that's a that shows what a great product you've got in that way you know i mean i i want people it comes down to i want to play modern i love it i want to play commander i love it i want to draft more i love it i can't draft as much when you do x so let me draft more by by doing y maybe and then you go well we're a business and you know we meet somewhere in the middle maybe yeah yeah so anyway i i'm almost to work, so we gotta wrap this up. But it's been fun having you on, like I said. You and I get to interact every once in a while. These days, it's mostly online

just because we're not traveling anywhere, but it's been a joy. One of the things that's fun is I'll go off to some event, and oftentimes I'll see you there, and we've hung out, and it's... I enjoy spending time with you, Brian. It's definitely a lot of fun, and I enjoy all the stuff you do, and I'm, I enjoy spending time with you, Brian. It's definitely a lot of fun and I enjoy all the stuff you do. And I'm not saying I never disagree with you, but, uh, I, I reserve

your rights to say things that I disagree with. So, um, keep, keep doing what you do. Well, thank you. And thank you for being a very large and instrumental part of changing not only my life, but so many people's lives for the better. It's known and it's appreciated. And even if I didn't like whatever product from three years ago, I love you for what you've done and for me in my life and so many others. So thank you for that. Well, thank you, Brian. And so guys, I'm now in my den. So we all know that means this is the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking with Brian, it's time for me to be making magic.

So say bye, Brian. Goodbye, Brian. Okay, see you guys next time. Bye-bye.