Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #749: Jimmy Wong and Josh Lee Kwai

Episode Date: June 19, 2020

In this podcast, I talk with Jimmy and Josh, hosts of The Command Zone and Game Knights.

I'm not pulling out of my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another Drive to Work, Coronavirus Edition. Okay, today I have some very special guests. So I have Jimmy Wong and Jocelyne Kwai, hosts of Command Zone and Game Nights. Hello, guys. Hello. Hello, Mark. It's an honor to be on. Thanks for having us. So first thing I'd like to do, I've learned this because you guys are my second two-person.

Can each of you identify yourself by voice so people listening know who's who? Good call. Hi, I'm Jimmy Wong, and I sound like this. And hello. I mean, how's it? This is Josh Lee Kwai, and I sound like this. Okay, so what I've been doing, the first question I've been asking everybody is, how did you get into magic?

So let's start with your magic beginnings. Nice. I'll give a really quick breakdown when i was in third grade i grew up in seattle washington and that of course is the home uh of magic the gathering and there were a lot of card games running around when i was a kid and i remember seeing people playing on the gravel outside of the classrooms as a third grader i remember going on the bus and seeing a kid hold up his nightmare card which i thought was the coolest card i've ever seen in my life i remember seeing the art for demonic tutor back in the day and just my brain exploded falling in love with sort of like what is this what is it about

and so that was how i first got into magic and built my first deck and did all that and it was a mono red deck with like eight copies of incinerate and eight copies of Lightning Bolt. You haven't changed much, Jimmy. I got into Magic. It was, I believe, my sophomore year of high school. It was like winter, I think 93, might have been early 94. A friend of mine had a group that had already started playing, but there was only four of them. And they wanted me to come and start playing

because they knew I was into similar interests. and they needed somebody to play the fifth color and we were they were actually playing multiplayer at that time with sort of their own made-up rules um and so i came in and of course i got handed green which was the worst color in early magic uh but i was hooked as soon as i cast my first spell yeah it's funny um there was a format called star i don't know if they're officially playing Yeah, it's funny. There was a format called Star Magic. I don't know if they're officially playing Star Magic, but in early Magic, there was a format called Star Magic where you played, everyone played a mono-color,

and then when you beat your two enemy colors is how you won the game. Yeah, actually, I think that's what we played. They must have read about it in a magazine or something, but I think that is what we played when we first started, or when I first started. So you guys both started pretty long ago. You were near the beginning. Jimmy, when did you start?

Like, what product did you first play with? Ice Age was my first set, but I believe it had just come out. So the cards everyone was playing with, I think, was around the revised Unlimited era. Okay, so anyway, you guys, well, suff suffice to say playing a long time yeah so how did you go from being just magic players to being to starting to do something more with magic but what was the first step of doing something with magic beyond just playing magic i think for me actually it has to do with something that's not magic which sounds a little weird but when i first started playing magic it was just for a little bit in third through fifth grade and then when i got into

middle school i started getting more interested in other things like pokemon and then i realized there are pokemon cards and then i got into another game called magination and i just like slowly loved card games and what ended up happening is for this game called imagination which was also a game that was based out of seattle ccG based. I ended up curating and creating a forum for the game. And it was like the number one top fan site, also one of the only like three fan sites that existed. And it blew up into this sort of 2000 person forum and we made a little community, people role-played.

And I would say that's actually my first foray into like making content with a card game that I would definitely tie into later on when Josh and I finally met and started doing stuff for Magic. Yeah, I took a long break from the game around Mirage. That was when I was going to college, and my whole play group was going to different colleges, and so we just kind of naturally fell away from the game. And then I taught my nephew to play around the Innistrad block and kind of got back into it.

And then I was actually doing some work with Rocket Jump, which is a YouTube channel run by Jimmy's brother. And Jimmy came into the office one day and he like set some magic cards down on like a desk. And I remember like Sarah Angel was like on top and I was like, you play magic? And then he invited me to come play Commander with some friends of his, which ended up being Alex Kessler and Craig Blanchett, who are also people in the Magic content community. And then we started making content because Jimmy and I were just like, you know, we couldn't find a lot of content about Commander at that time. And we just kind of looked at each other one day and we're like, well, we could do it. You know, there's cameras and stuff all over the office here, so we could just do it. And then that's kind of how it started.

So what was the first thing you did? What was the first content you made? Not Commander related. I mean, the very first episode we did of our show, well, we recorded like six or seven episodes of our podcast before we even released one. We wanted to have a backlog so we knew we would be able to release every single week. So I think our very first episode of our podcast was our first magic content. And it was just Commander 101, just explaining what the format was and how it was different than other formats. And then past that, sorry, this is what I meant.

We were like, okay, well, we got stuff to do. Conspiracy just came out. Let's do a conspiracy set review. And so it's not Commander related necessarily, but it what I meant. We were like, okay, well, we got stuff to do. Conspiracy just came out. Let's do a conspiracy set review. And so it's not Commander-related necessarily, but it was multiplayer-related. And actually, I think one of our biggest inspirations was limited resources because we both got into Magic again. And I remember going to the Journey into Nyx pre-release

and learning more about limited environments. And when we listened to that podcast and Marshall's sweet, buttery, smooth voice, I think both of us looked at each other and went, well, we can do this too. We have the equipment. There's nothing in this for the commander space. So then we jumped into it. And some of our early content was the Commander 101 as well as a conspiracy set review.

But it was kind of like just getting our feet wet and getting the show underneath us and doing a lot of test runs to make sure that we wouldn't just sit there sit there and say um the whole time did you start as audio or did you start as video we were audio only uh but we did do videos released on youtube but you couldn't see us so we would just put the cards kind of on screen as we were talking about them uh i think it was like 100 episodes or so before we started actually pointing a camera at ourselves so that that was pretty far in, which is funny because we had access to all the cameras the whole time. But I think we were, Jimmy's right, limited resources was such a huge catalyst for us doing it that in our minds, we were just like a podcast and we didn't need the video side. And then after a while, we started thinking like, we know how to do all the video stuff. We should probably just take advantage of that.

video stuff we should probably just take advantage of that okay so at what point did you go from we make this material till you realize people were listening to it what was your first sort of fan interaction hmm that's a really good question it was interesting because for a long time we didn't want to put videos on youtube we were just like man why make a youtube channel or a podcast we don't need to do all the extra to do about that i think once we to put videos on YouTube. We were just like, man, why make a YouTube channel or a podcast? We don't need to do all the extra to do about that. I think once we started putting videos on YouTube and realizing how much of the audience was there and didn't listen to podcasts, but would consume the video version of the content, is when I started to sort of have the, oh, this actually has a good following here. And there are a lot of people that are interacting and commenting, starting to tweet at us and all that. And I think that's when the snowball started rolling down the hill a little faster.

Because prior to that, I think our most interactions were just seeing people put a nice comment for us in the iTunes review section because we asked them to. I mean, for me, I think it was GP Vegas in 2015. We decided to throw a party um a commander focused party because gps and things are mostly focused around draft and standard and they didn't at that time they didn't have really anything organized for commander players at all and so we picked a night and we rented out like a ballroom in a hotel and we just we weren't we had no idea like what this was going to be would 10 people show up we had we didn't really know and uh so we kind of put the word out and invited people and we got

like 200 people at this thing uh luckily we'd rented a big enough room we actually had to convince the hotel to allow us to like open the sliding doors to spill into another room because we had too many people and that was when i was like oh a lot of people are listening to our show i guess okay so um so command zone went on like how long did command zone go on before you game like how did game nights happen how did that happen i think it was like four years of the show before game nights came up two i believe we started in 2014 it was probably like two and a half years and at the end of 2016 because it was um commander 2016 was the first game nights episode you're right

yeah yeah yeah it really happened because um trick jarrett had sent us the commander product for c16 commander 2016 uh a few weeks early i think like three weeks early before it was out and we that had never happened right we never gotten early products before and so jimmy and i had been discussing like commander gameplay and how we maybe would do it if we ever got the chance and this seemed like the perfect time because that was the first time we ever could be like if we shoot it we can release it right when the product's coming out and people will be the most excited and so we just scrambled mad scramble and did the whole thing in three weeks it was kind of nuts so i've actually been on game nights so i i have some awareness of what it takes but talk a little bit i don't think the average person has

any idea how much goes into making a game nights episode i don't think the average person has any idea what goes into making almost anything sometimes. Like we turn on the TV and we watch Game of Thrones and we're all angry and disappointed at it. But what we don't realize is there are approximately 800 to like 2000 people that had to be in active coordination and spend hundreds and thousands of hours to like put it together. I think the main thing that I always try to tell people about when it comes to production is that every single minute you see on screen, every single part of that has to be made, right? Like every part of it has to be put there by someone, designed by someone, drawn by someone, costumed by someone. And so Game Nights, I think, is similar in that way, in that there's a lot of time behind the scenes editing and all that stuff, as well as pre-prep.

But Josh can go much more into detail about, I think, those production things that sort of get lost in translation. Here's what I'm interested in, Josh. I mean, for the average person, I mean, I come from a background in this, so I'm very, very familiar with how this goes. But give people a short version of what exactly it takes to make how long is Game Nights? Like what's an average Game Nights episode? About an hour.

An hour. How long does it take to make an hour of content? I think the general calculation we use is somewhere between 15 to 18 hours of work per minute of screen time. So an average hour-long episode is somewhere around 1,000 hours of work, maybe. A little more, a little less, depending on the complexities of the set. You know, Unstable, I'll give you your favorite set, Mark, which was a great episode, loved doing it. But that has a lot of complicated things in it.

Like the contraption mechanic was something that we had to figure out, like how are we going to animate and visually show that in a cool, interesting way? And so that just takes a little bit longer maybe than a normal set that doesn't have a mechanic that's as complicated. And so it varies, but it's a ton of work. And most of that work is in editing. I'd say, you know, 80 to 85% of the work is just the editing time. So I'm going to use the unstable just because this is the one I did.

So, for example, I flew in early in the morning. You guys picked me up at the airport. I mean, I flew in like 7 a.m. or something. We started shooting, I'm guessing, like maybe 9, 9 a.m. And we finished at like 11 p.m. or something. We started shooting, I'm guessing like maybe 9, 9 a.m., and we finished at like 11 p.m. It was all day. And part of it is, I mean, well, walk through, like, why did you take that long?

What's going on? What exactly happened in the making of a show? I remember when we were booking that, and the idea was you were going to fly in that morning and then fly out that night, and we were like, hey, he probably needs to stay overnight because it's going to be complicated and we're not sure exactly we can't guarantee he'll make the flight if we book it that night um yeah there's just so much that goes on to into it so first of all when we're playing the game it's not like playing a normal game of magic you're not just like playing it at a normal speed usually you're

playing and then restating things making sure you put the cards into the right places. So everything everybody does, they have to do it multiple times so that it's sort of done in the way that will make it so that when we edit it together, it's as smooth as possible. So you know, Mark, I'm constantly like, okay, I'm not telling players how to play or what to play, but

just say it this way. Put the card here. Say this before you say that. Make sure you say the name of the person you're attacking. Make sure you say the name of the card that's doing it. And all that takes a bunch of time. So the average game length is double or triple what if you were just playing the game would be. And then you've got the interview process afterwards. So each person has to sit down in the confessional booth and talk for another hour and a half, maybe two hours, depending on the complexity of the game.

And we're literally going through every single thing that happens because we have somebody during the game that's sitting there writing down, transcripting every single move. And so I'll be like, OK, Mark, then Jimmy did this. What do you think about that? And not only that, he doesn't just say what he thinks. We're trying to formulate a story as we go. So it's a collaborative effort with the interviewers, with us, trying to be like, okay, so we know Jimmy is going to talk about this was kind of his plan.

What were you thinking? And then how do we build in the moments? Because within Game Nights, there's all these little jokey moments. And so you're trying to build to the slaying mantis moment. Yes, yes. The mantis moment only works if you set the expectations correctly.

We have to set that up, only because our viewers might not know. So I came down to show off Unstable. You guys did one of your few, if only game nights it wasn't Commander, because you were kindly showing off Unstable.

And so we played Limited. So Slaying Mantis is a card that when you cast it, you flip it in the air and anything it lands on, it fights. And it's like a 6-6, so it can destroy most things that it lands on. From a certain height, too. What? From a certain height.

From a certain height, yeah. You have to throw it from a certain height. Is it height or a certain distance? It's a certain distance. Yeah, a distance. Anyway, so what happens is... It's actually like 20 feet. I am playing against Josh, and I'm winning.

I have a good board. I'm ahead. But he pulls out the Slaying Mantis, and then I get very afraid because, like, it can wipe out my board. So go ahead, Josh. What happened with the Slaying Mantis? So first of all, I want to say that three feet is way farther than you think. We measure out three feet, and I'm like, what? I thought it would be way closer so i line it up and and once i pull the card out mark's not allowed

to move his stuff on the board at all so it's actually kind of stacked close together and i think i have a pretty good shot at taking out like three or four creatures with this thing and i throw the card and it barely touches the edge of the table. Like, I don't even get close to his board. It just sunk. Gravity took over. The funny thing is, I did the pre-release three, four weeks later, and I drafted a slaying mantis. And I practiced and practiced and practiced.

And I'm like, I gotta at least hit the table. I set the bar real low for you, Bart. I actually, I tossed it three times and two times I hit Creature, so I did pretty well with it. That's an absurd hit rate. That's amazing. Yeah. I practiced. I should have thought to practice with it, but I just, it didn't occur to me.

So, the great part about that moment, from just live being there, was I was so afraid, and what you missed was so funny. Oh, that was, anyway, that was, I had a blast shooting with you guys that was a lot of fun yeah that was a ton of fun uh yeah so so moments like that you know if you watch that episode of game nights you know that moment and you know this from being in the industry a lot goes into creating that moment so that it lands how you want it to land you have to set the expectation so you got mark going like oh no if he does this this is gonna happen and you got me being like okay i just gotta aim for this and then the whole game's gonna turn around and then you have the build up the build up the build up throw it and everybody just busts up laughing because i totally win yeah but if you don't cut that right then the moment's not funny so we spend a lot of time on moments like that so yeah that's

why the show takes so much work is is really crafting the story and the moments and the storytelling honestly like everybody thinks the graphics and the animation take a ton of time and they do take time but we do that at the end after all the story is done the storytelling is what takes the most amount of time yeah one of the things that i don't think people uh really can appreciate uh is how important editing is i i think i mean like once again having worked in the industry like editing is. I think, I mean, once again, having worked in the industry, editing is so, so important, but it's kind of invisible to the viewer. That's just what's there.

So it's very hard to know that someone had to take hours of footage and make that happen. And Magic's a really tough game to make it digestible so you can follow it, right? Because it's so complicated. Yeah. Yeah, I think the best comments that we ever receive on the show to make it digestible so you can follow it, right? Because it's so complicated. Yeah. Yeah, I think the best comments that we ever receive on the show and the ones that I know Josh agrees with this too

is when a parent will go, hey, my kid loves your show. They're five. It's like there's no way they know what's really happening. But that means that Josh and the editing team has crafted a believable and right enough storyline in terms of the emotions, the music, the graphics, the dynamics, that someone can watch it with their eyes closed and understand what's happening because they just listened to it. Someone can watch it with their ears covered because they can understand what's visually happening. And then when you bring it all together, it's like a cohesive experience.

And that, you know, honestly, half the movies I see on TV these days don't even have that level of cohesion to them. So there's a lot that really goes into it. And I think people don't understand. It's like, yeah, like we are recording these interviews afterwards and we are adding our own storyline to it. But you have to do so in a way that benefits what happened live during the game. Like we weren't sitting there being like, hey, guys, Josh is going to miss this throw really badly. And we're all going to bust up laughing because there's just no genuineness in that moment. It's much better to let that moment play live and then figure out afterwards okay that

was hilarious how are we going to build up to a way into that in a way that honors the real live moment and keeps us you know like genuinely excited and and actually laughing about what happens so from so the audience understands this from a production standpoint you shoot the show how long before the show is done like what how long does it take to do that uh generally about a month so we're in post-production for around four to five weeks yeah so it's it's a long time but that's also and there's multiple editors so oh sorry jimmy that's also still rushing it like you guys could spend conceivably two three months on this yeah you know during the

the lockdown for the pandemic we actually had to cancel one episode just because we couldn't get you know that amount of people in one room to shoot and so that gave us like six weeks because we the you know akoria got delayed a little bit the paper release and so we were able to be like oh can we delay the episode of game nightsights to time up with that? And yeah, getting the extra couple of weeks allowed us to have, you know, a lot more leeway to fix things we would normally not be able to fix. And also just a lot more leisurely pace because Jimmy's right. Sometimes, oftentimes four weeks is like a 90 hour work week for me and the other three editors the week before it releases or something like that. Okay. So let's talk a little beyond.

So you guys have Command Zone. You guys have Game Nights. But that's not all you guys do. There's other stuff that I know you have. I participate in some of it. So what else do you guys do? What else do we do? I do a lot of hosting.

And you'll see Josh and I both as proud representatives of the Magic community at certain events. I think my favorite personal event that I've ever done hosting-wise for Magic was the Kaladesh PAX, where they transformed a huge part of the PAX convention here up in Seattle, Washington, to be all about Kaladesh. And it was awesome.

We had just tons of little panels and all this stuff. Josh was there vlogging, and it was great to see the Magic community come together in a really exciting event. So I do a lot of hosting on the side as well, a lot of and all this stuff. Josh was there vlogging and it was great to see like the magic community come together in a really exciting event. So I do a lot of hosting on the side as well. A lot of game related stuff. Um, I have a cooking show.

I have a cookbook and a bunch of other random sort of YouTube things from over the years. Yeah. It's funny. The pack shows the one time that maybe we're a sports coat. It was a flannel one though, right? Yeah.

Uh, I think it had like a flannel sort of feel to it, but, uh, in the future though, I just let Mark wear his flannels. I'm not sure why we're trying to dress him up. So I know the one other thing you guys do, because we had an opportunity with you. I had an opportunity with you guys to do Make-A-Wish. So there's another show I know you guys do.

So let's talk about the Make-A-Wish and the other show. Yeah, so the other show that you're asking about is called Extra Turns, which was sort of devised by Josh and the crew after sort of evaluating, you know, Game Nights takes such a long production time to do, and we would love to get more gameplay out there. So what's an alternative way to do so in a slightly less intensive work way? Still is a lot of work, don't get me wrong. So that was called Extra Turns.

And when we got contacted by Make a wish foundation and it was for this awesome kid named evan that listed mark rosewater as one of his great inspirations and he runs a magic club out of his high school he's a really really awesome kid and it just so turns out that the weekend that we wanted to work with him mark you were headed down to comic-con because magic always has a presence at you know sdcc every year and so we happened to be able to line it up perfectly where you would you know en route from la to comic-con uh stop by the command zone office and meet with evan and play a next returns game with him and for him it was something he had no idea was about to happen so we loaded him up with a

bunch of awesome swag and you walked in and it was just like this is the reason i'm playing the game this is the reason that he's my idol that like the the eyes he just lit up and it was great because like i've never done a make-a-wish before but this felt like a like a make-a-wish on a make-a-wish on like there's like so many elements there that really got to make this moment special for evan and that was like one of the things I think Josh and I will never forget. It's definitely those moments where, you know, you think, wow, this is, this makes everything worth it. Not that it's not worth it normally, but it's just like one of those seminal moments for like, wow,

this is a good reason just to do this stuff all by itself. So we've, I'm not too far from my desk here so we have a little more time um is there any other things you guys do that you really want to talk about any other things that like interact with magic or a cool story interacting with your fans i think it's funny because when jimmy explained like the other things we do he didn't talk about some pretty big things that he does so it can like but yes we do other hosting things for magic and stuff but jimmy like like didn't talk about the fact that he just came out with a book feast of kitchen which is a cookbook that he did yeah and it's based on another youtube

channel that he has that only has a million plus subscribers this other YouTube channel this Smurf account that Jimmy runs and then he didn't talk about the fact that he's an actor and he's gonna be in Disney's Mulan which was supposed to come out a couple months ago yeah he's got a major part uh in a huge Hollywood movie also he has another movie that the trailer just came out for called Wish Dragon. It's an animated movie. He's the voice of the main character, Jimmy. I forgot that. All the leads.

My humility outdoes me once again. Josh never mentioned that he is an esteemed trailer editor that has edited for the likes of Star Wars The Force Awakens as well as the official trailer for Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, which, by the way, was my first encounter with Josh Lee Kwai without realizing it. We all loved that trailer when it came out.

I think everyone was still in college at the time. But yeah, Josh and I come from sort of a deep Hollywood background in the entertainment business. I think that's what's led to a lot of the high, we want to create the most quality product ever. We want to do stuff that is up to our standards. And I think that's really important because Magic of the Gathering is a game

that has so much fan support, but not in the super high quality production ways. So I think that's one of the things that we were able to bring to what we do at the Commands on the Game Nights. And that's sort of like backing from our prior experiences and sort of the consulting we were able to give ourselves so that's like sort of like our outside world has definitely directly contributed to the inside world of what we do for magic and all those things josh said is true and i just didn't mention them so so one of the things that's very interesting

from when you, when did you guys start Commands and what year did you start Commands in? 2014. 2014. June, I believe. So you guys started, I mean, relatively early on in Commander. I mean, not the very beginning, but you know. What do you, like Commander has gone from that to like literally,

I believe our data shows it's the most played magic format yeah it's been incredible to see the growth of the format over the years and uh yeah it's just it's just great to see it's not i don't think it's surprising to jimmy and i because you know we loved it and we always say that you know especially game nights is really like our love letter to magic and all the things we love about the game and you know a lot of that has to do with just that casual aspect so much of game nights is about the laughter of those moments like the slaying mantis it's about the fun of playing the game and and i think you know i like tournament magic and the pro tour and watching all that stuff but we just felt like that side

of magic was maybe a little bit underrepresented and so that was one of our goals was to be like, yeah, but most people play Magic just to have fun. And that's why we love it. I think the tipping point for me was when you had that poll on Twitter, Mark, and it was like limited versus Commander, which one is more popular? And then we just saw Commander edge it out just barely. And it was like, wow, it's cool for us because that's also both of our favorite formats so i think it's it's something something that we aren't surprised about i think multiplayer games board games all those things are just on the rise in general as people in our

generation start to have kids or start to have a little more expendable income to spend on these hobbies of ours that maybe were felt to be a little shameful or embarrassing when we were growing up. So what is, I mean, like I said, I'm wrapping up here. Do each of you have a story of what is your favorite? It can be a Command Zone story, a Game Night story. Just your personal favorite moment of just, this is, I don't know, just your favorite moment of doing all the stuff you do. Our favorite magic moment.

I'll go first while you think, Jimmy. So I talked about our party at GP Vegas in 2015. And so what we did is 2017 there was a GP Vegas. And we said, okay, we're going to throw the party again. And this one was insane. This one, there was like 600, 700 people.

Room just packed, people playing on the floor. Jimmy is like standing on a chair trying to yell because we didn't know it was going to be this big. And so we didn't bring like a PA system, which we clearly needed. And, you know, Wizards, you guys gave us a ton of stuff to give away. So we were just firing free drafts. Ultra Pro had given us a ton of stuff to give away. So we were just firing free drafts. Ultra Pro had given us a ton of stuff to give away. So people were just coming away with like all these free deck boxes and sleeves and all this stuff. And it was just like the most fun night.

And, you know, I think it was like Command Fest before Command Fest existed. And I think that's the moment where... And I remember Gavin Duggan, who is one of the rules committee for Commander, I was standing at the front of the room just kind of watching everything. And he came up and he was like, well, I guess the format just really works. And I was like, yeah, you're right, it does.

I mean, if you couldn't tell. So that was a pretty goose bumpy moment. Yeah, I think maybe the moments that stand out the most to me are the moments like that when you kind of stop and go oh this is real this is this is it this is cool that i'm feeling the the excitement and the energy and i think one of those moments for us is when we finally built the first set for game nights at the old rocket jump offices um it was sort of this thing where like we kind of talked about a lot and then we had a producer and some other people help us with the facilitation of all the manual labor that needed to happen to build it and when it finally started coming together and i was just sort of you know josh and i were just sort of sitting there hearing the lumber get cut seeing the

things going up and i was like wow we we turned this into something that like if you asked us four years ago do you even think you're still going to be doing this i don't know we would even said yes and the just seeing everything come to life and all the walls being put up and then finally turning on the cameras in the space and just seeing the difference quality jumping up from my apartment when we would hang a gopro like off of a weird looking looking stick on top of a lamp because it was in the middle of the room and then tell everyone to stop moving so it would stop and sort of stabilize and use gaff tape everywhere. It was just cool to be able to see the full level up into that next thing.

And then even past that, bringing on graphics editors and doing all the small things and refining the product. It's really cool just to see how things have evolved and to be there for those landmark moments along the product. It's, it's really cool just to see how things have evolved and to be there for those landmark moments along the way. Yeah. One of the things that I found very interesting is, uh, like I,

I've had a lot of chance to interact with you guys over the years. And, uh, just like, right. I've seen the set. Like when you go up and you see the set and you look up close and like, like there's a screen in the background that you guys always have some

illustrate, whatever the art is of the set you guys are doing. And there's illustrated art in the background that you guys always have some illustrated, whatever the art is of the set you guys are doing, and there's illustrated art in the background. And it's the details. I've always been super impressed. I mean, you guys are, I think, just top notch in the production values. Well, we appreciate it. That's what we aim for.

And it's funny. Like I said, my background is, I came from Hollywood many years ago. said my background is i came from hollywood many years ago and so uh i appreciate the the sort of cinema quality you guys add to things like it really is i in some ways i don't know people one of the things i've learned about media is that people don't always understand why they feel the way they feel but it's all these little details that make them feel that way uh and i i always love that you guys are just, all the details are always there and so perfect. I think the thing that I have to give a lot of credit for is,

Josh is right. I have a YouTube channel that has over a million subscribers. The Commando one's around 350-ish thousand. And it's like, wow, look at the numbers. It's Jimmy Smurf account. But after making content for nine plus years, you get tired sometimes and things just kind of, you get lazy and you're like,

you know what, that's good enough. Just put it out there. And I think without Josh around, I wouldn't have instilled the full on, like let's make it as good as we possibly can because why wouldn't we? That attitude wasn't there as much for me when I first started the command zone with him.

And so I think over time, that mentality and that attitude wasn't there as much for me when I first started the command zone with them. And so I think over time, that mentality and that attitude has helped inform a lot of the other parts of my life as well. And I think that is one of those great things about like collaboration and working with people that you're really inspired by, as well as people that, you know, you can consider your peers. So I feel like you must probably feel the same way with all the amazing designers around you, Mark,

but it's great to be able to balance off of someone else and use them as the initiative and the reason that you want to get better and hopefully it's the same on the other way around because that's what makes i think all like successful business partnerships work is that you're both looking after each other's backs and making sure that you're elevating at the right pace together so guys i always uh i always kind of compare it to like if you go to work out at a gym, you can only work out so hard by yourself, but if you have a spotter, you can get a lot more done. So finding that right partner is just so important to any creative endeavor.

Uh, good point. Even, yeah. Even ones that seem like they're just you, like even writing, having the right person to bounce things off of will just improve the product at the end by so much. So, yeah, it's really – I feel the same way Jimmy does. It's really been a huge boon, I think, and a big reason for our success is just the fact that we've gelled really well. And we've been able to keep pushing each other to keep making things just a little bit better each time. Well, thank you, guys.

I see I'm approaching my desk here. So I want to thank you guys all for joining me. And you're only my second ever dual interview. So it was great having you guys on the show. Thanks so much for having us, Mark. Real pleasure. Okay, guys. Well, I'm at my den, so we all know what that means.

It means the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. Thanks so much, guys. Bye. Bye-bye. See you guys next time. Bye-bye.