Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #756: Chris Pikula

Episode Date: July 10, 2020

In this podcast, I talk with Chris Pikula about the Pro Tour and what it's like to win a Magic Invitational.

I'm not pulling out of my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for the Drive to Work Coronavirus Edition. So I've been bringing really fun interviews and I have another fun one. It is Chris Bakula. Hi. Okay, so Chris, I'm going to start with the question I've been asking everybody, which is how did you start playing Magic? I started playing Magic when I went home for summer vacation after my freshman year of college.

And one of my friends came home from, one of my high school friends came home from like a weekend LARP, I think. And people at that event had introduced him to Magic. So he came home with like, you know, a handful of revised cards that someone had given him and said, this game is pretty cool. People taught me how to play. We should buy some cards and play. So, you know, me and seven or eight of my high school friends

that summer started playing Magic with Revised. Okay, so this is like 94? Yeah. Okay. Okay, so how do you go from that to becoming a pro tour player? How did that transition happen? Oh, wow. So that first summer obviously like uh you know learning magic i don't

know how i don't really it's really hard to understand what it's like to learn to play magic now um because there's just so many resources and and so many uh ways to just learn about the game. And back then, obviously, there wasn't. So things took a while. But I think I won a tournament at the end of that first summer at like a local store or something. And then when I got back to Cornell, like a small, obviously a tiny local store tournament in 1984, pre-pro tour. And this is,

this is then, um, and, you know, I, I, you know, I could go on more into how I feel like I,

like what, how I developed into like getting good at magic. If you want to talk about that, or if you want to talk about like, you know, I went back to Cornell and then instead of going to like getting good at magic if you want to talk about that or if you want to talk about like you know that the i went back to cornell and then instead of going to like the role-playing section of cornell has a friday night gaming club um i don't know how long that had been going on before i got to cornell there's always been a friday night gaming club there as far as i know

um probably going back to the early 80s um at least and uh you know when i got back from that first summer vacation i started going to like the magic room instead of the like role-playing room and that's when i learned really started to learn about everything like at the end of that first summer um my friends and i still had not really figured out the difference between like alpha and beta and revised we were still kind of confused as to like why some cards were rare and why we never got moxes and packs and

I had to learn all that when I got back to Cornell from like these people who had these like binders full of like you know all these old cards that I'd never seen you know what when old cards that i'd never seen um you know what i when i think about those days i really what what is so different about magic now than magic then is that rares are just kind of good now they're either complicated or good. Okay. But back then, I was actually frequently confused because I would think something, but because a card was like a rare, but it seemed terrible to me, I would think I must be bad. I must be bad at the game because this card's rare, so it must be usable.

So I must not really get it. But in fact, i was just off and right i just was kind of unwilling to accept the idea that i had was like smarter than the game if that makes sense and then there were like cards that were kind of expensive that also confused me like i don't know if you remember i'm sure you um it was like hard to get like killer bees and i and i saw that card like why would anyone want this card i don't understand but it was like hard to get like killer bees and I saw that card and I was like why would anyone want this card I don't understand but it's like hard to get

but we're like really trading for it so it took a while to really understand the whole ecosystem but then when tournaments started getting more organized and I guess they rolled out, did they roll out Type 2 just before the first Pro Tour?

Type 2 was the summer, I think, before the Pro Tour. Pro Tour started in early 96, and summer of 95, I believe, was the introduction of, they called it Type 2 at the time, but Standard. Right, so when Type 2 came out, Standard, and then there was Type 1 1 and Type 1.5 came in there somewhere, which is like legacy.

1.5 happened later, but yeah. It became extended, I think. Right, right. So that's when it became more competitive, I think, is when we started to get more serious about tournaments and such. And then, of course, Pro Tour 1 was literally just a friend of mine called and registered us.

So then we were all just in the Pro Tour because one of us found out about it and made a phone call. For people that don't know, PT1, there was a small list of people we invited. But other than that small list of people we invited, you had a call on the phone to get in.

That's how you got into PT1. Yeah, and... So what was PT1 like? What was PT1 like? Yeah. PT1 was... So the coolest moment of Pro Tour 1,

the one thing I remember, the thing that really hooked me on competitive magic. So it was at the Puck Building in New York, which is now an REI. And, and there was like a big, like, sort of like a spectator room outside the tournament room. And there was a big screen where you could like watch the feature match. And of course that was all very new.

Yeah. screen where you could like watch the feature match and of course that was all very new yeah um and i just very distinctly remember watching dave humphries use his sylvan library um on the big screen in his feature match and i don't know it was just so cool watching dave humphries play he was just like at sylvan Library and Sinbad in his deck, and then somehow he still just got totally ruined because his opponent cast Autumn Willow before he cast his Autumn Willow, so he couldn't cast it because of the old legend rule.

And, uh, I don't know. There was something that seemed so... So he was playing Dennis Bentley, by the way. Oh, is that how he was playing? Yeah. I did not realize that. So there was something so, like, intellectually just cool about watching dave use his sylvan library on the big screen that just really really struck me as as just what i wanted to do i wanted to like be involved in this like weird intellectual battle on that could potentially be on the big screen for a much longer time. And, yeah, I really

did get hooked. I mean, besides that, obviously, by modern standards, the tournament had a lot of problems. The judges were extremely inexperienced. It was the first pro tour. Huh? It was the first pro tour.

I know, I know. I'm just saying, you know. They had judged every pro tour. I know, I know. They had judged every pro tour that existed up to that point. Yes. By modern standards, yes, we would not be satisfied with the level of how much sloppiness was allowed for both the players and the judges. But it was a cool event for sure. No question. So let's talk a little bit about early magic. for both the players and the judges. But it was a cool event for sure, and that made me want to do a question.

So let's talk a little bit about early Magic, because one of the things that I like doing is using this as a chance to talk a little bit of history, and you and I go way back to early Magic history. What was the early Pro Tour like? I mean, I think that people think of, you know, modern sort of pro tour and they don't realize that yeah it was a different time uh sure i mean the big one big difference is how young everyone was for sure um you know i was 21 um 21 for Pro Tour 1.

Okay. And I remember being thought of as, like, old. And there were a few people older. And even, like, a very tiny handful of people who were over 30. But it was really much younger than if you go to like a competitive event. Now,

if you go to a pro tour now or mythic championship, um, or even to look at the top tables that, you know, I guess I don't, I want to talk about grand prixs. I don't even know. Well,

I mean, we're in a pandemic. Normally, normally people gather and play magic. This is a weird time. I went to grand Pre two years ago and looked at the top tables at the end. The average age is definitely over 25.

That just obviously wasn't the case. That was one because Magic was so new, so there just wasn't a group of people who'd been playing since they were 12, obviously. It just wasn't a thing. But also because the game got so much bigger and the prizes got bigger,

it just attracted a more older crowd, I guess, a wider crowd. So, yeah, people were definitely a lot younger. And that, of course, had both positives and negatives. And that, of course, had both positives and negatives. You know, I think the young, the age, obviously I have a very big reputation for fighting against cheating in early magic. And I do think that the age of the people involved in that kind of magic did play a very large part in how much cheating there was in magic back then.

It wasn't just that the judges weren't as good at looking for it or that somehow the people running the tournaments were more permissive. I mean, those things were true to some extent, but it's just that people who are young make bad decisions sometimes, and I think that really contributed to a lot of that. So that was a big part of just how young everyone was. Yeah, you always had this quality about you that you felt like everybody could do better. Like, you know, people weren't doing... Like, it could be better than it is.

Come on, people, we could be better. That seemed like a through line. Yeah, but it's funny because even when... So every once in a while someone will show me, like, a Usenet post from me from, like, 1997. Yeah. And I'm very obviously young in these because i'm i'm saying the same

the things i'm saying are the same ideas i might use now yeah i say them very differently yes um you know it was also uh you know magic was different back then because it wasn't this uh you know there wasn't nearly as much because it wasn't this, you know, there wasn't nearly as much sort of hive mind about what was good and what was bad. So people could take, you know, today there are players who sort of get credit for kind of maybe doing things a little bit differently. Like Sam Black is a recent, you know, very successful player

who I think has a reputation for, you know, playing different decks than other people might. But back then, almost everybody in some sense kind of did their own thing. There wasn't nearly as much, you know homogenous sort of approach to the game where now today is like you know most of the players just kind of like

play the best deck and then there's these kind of like you know I don't want to use the word outcast they're not outcasts. They're just different who kind of do their own thing maybe more often than they should. Sometimes they're Dutch wits, sometimes not. But back then, I feel like everyone sort of did their own thing more.

It was just harder to know. I mean, of course, the structure of how the tournaments work and what I mean by that is different because the timing is different. It used to be there was no real way to test for a Pro Tour except with your friends. There wasn't like a week of Magic Online before the Pro Tour or even something like that where you could really play a lot. Um,

and because everyone was younger and the prizes were smaller, um, but mostly I would say because everyone was younger. So people just didn't have as much money. People weren't flying and living together for two weeks before tournament either. So everything was just much less explored, and you were more likely to show up at a tournament and not really know how good your deck was or be more surprised by what you saw.

You know, obviously today people still show up at tournaments with bad decks, but I feel like probably the last five years especially, I feel like the pro tour decks have become a little bit, quite a bit more predictable. Where back then you would often show up and someone would have a deck that really blew you away. You're like, we just didn't even know this was a deck. So I'm going to segue into a tournament that talked about not knowing what was coming.

I want to jump to PT Atlanta. Okay. So for those, let me set the stage. You know PT Atlanta. Let me set the stage for the audience. So PT Atlanta was the pro tour where we introduced the players to a set that wasn't out yet. It was Mirage.

And it was a pre-release tournament Pro Tour. Like, you opened up the packs for the very first time. You've never seen anything in the... Like, you're seeing the cards for the very first time and now you're playing a Pro Tour. So, what was that like? So, one thing I want to say about it is, yes,

you're playing a pre-release pro tour which is obviously pretty nuts um especially because it's early in the days of magic where you know wizards had not had you know they just they hadn't really gone through this like what they have this modern idea of like building sets for Limited didn't really exist. Well, Mirage was the first set we built for Limited. Right. Yeah. But the other thing was, and this is related to that,

is that I think a large number of the people in that tournament had never played in a sealed deck tournament before. It wasn't just that it was pre-release. A lot of people just didn't play Limited. People just played, you know, whatever their, well, I guess Type 1 or whatever we were calling it when you could just play with all your cards, and then Type 2. So even sealed deck was pretty new to a lot of people. Obviously some people had played the Ice Age pre-release and then I guess, was there a

pre-release for... Alliances had a pre-release that was held in a couple cities. Including in LA at the boat because it coincided with a PT on the boat. Right. So there wasn't widespread seal deck experience either.

People weren't used to just going to the pre-release every three months and going seal decks. Yeah. So it was very challenging. And I would say that it would be incredible to be able to go back and look at those decks. Because the deck building mistakes... I mean, I made top eight. And I built my deck terribly but my deck was just very good

so I could sort of I just had bad mana essentially if I drew my mana my deck was going to be very good I didn't need to build it the way I did it was just a terrible decision but but I mean people made I mean I just remember Dave Price just made terrible decisions

Brian Weissman horrific I just remember Dave Price just made terrible decisions. Brian Weissman, horrific. I just remember people who are considered to be very good Magic players who were already considered to be top-tier pros were just totally flummoxed by this because new cards, new approach to the game. There were just a lot of mistakes. Was that your first top eight? Yeah, because Dallas was later.

Dallas was the next event. Okay. So that was your first top eight. And then the very next pro tour, right? Dallas was your next top eight, right? Yes. Back-to-back top eights. That's right. So, because I remember it's funny, next pro tour, right? Dallas was your next top eight, right? Yes. Back-to-back top eights. That's right.

Because I remember, it's funny, when you first came on the scene, you were well known for being kind of an entertainer, you know, that you could spin a yarn and stuff, but I think back-to-back top eights finally said, oh, hey, Chris is a player now. You know, this is... What was that like, sort of, finally making top eights?

Uh... I don't think it felt quite like that just because, it's because, you know, they're only, I made my second top eight at the fifth Pro Tour. Yeah. I made my second top eight at the fifth Pro Tour. It's not like I was some... There have just only been five Pro Tours. The first one, I obviously just showed up and didn't really realize what we were getting ourselves into. They didn't have as many rounds back then, so they felt a little more random. It didn't feel that way to me it definitely didn't feel like oh i finally made it because like

i mean maybe it's just sort of like the you know trader gambler in me who wants to talk about small sample size or whatever but it just it didn't feel like anything had was had already been determined i mean i i knew i wasn't i probably already knew that i was not as good as john It didn't feel like anything had already been determined. I mean, I knew I wasn't, I probably already knew that I was not as good as John Finkel at this point. Who is as good as John Finkel, by the way? Right, exactly. It was very clear very early that we weren't as good as him.

And we knew that we were playing catch up somewhat with the people who had just been kind of playing magic 50% longer. I mean, we couldn't play magic and thinking about it, like competitively, like quite a bit longer than us. So, um, there just weren't that many years back then. So if someone had been playing three years and you've been playing two, it felt like a lot. Um, but I don't, I don't think it felt, I mean, it felt good to do well, but I was used to just doing well at local tournaments

and doing well at the tournaments that like neutral ground ran or pre-neutral ground, gray matter tournaments, whatever they're called, or whatever. So I was used to doing well in tournaments. And I think the Pro Tour was so new that I didn't feel like I had been stumbling on the Pro Tour. I did well. I got top 32 at Pro Tour 1

and 3, I think. So yeah, I mean, obviously it was great to do well, but I don't think it hit me. The top 8 didn't have the mystique it has now. Okay. So let's flash forward about a year. So it is PT Tempest, and I tag you to do commentary for the first time.

Do you remember this? Just for the top eight, right? Well, we only did commentary for the top eight in those days I think it was, well, we only did commentary for the top eight in those days. Right, right, right. Okay. And Dave Price, so a good friend of yours

would go on to win the tournament. That's right. And anyway, one of the things I had done back in the day was I would ask different pros to sort of do color. And I asked you to do color on the Tempest one. I think,

did you do it with Brian or with Brian later? At that tournament? Yeah. I don't remember. At that tournament, it might have been Brian Hacker? Maybe. Maybe it was Hacker. But anyway, for the very first time, I had you do

commentary, and you did it really, really well. You were you were excellent in commentary. You were I mean, you've always been very entertaining, but you did a really good job. Then I started using you all the time doing commentary. So what was that? What was that doing commentary like back in the day? I always really enjoyed commentary. I think that uh i think i got lucky where early in my career you put me in a couple spots where i was really biased and people enjoyed that yeah um uh like it was clear who i wanted to win and i i somehow uh i managed to do that in a way that endeared me to people rather than made people not like me

because obviously you can imagine a situation where being biased in the booth is going to turn people off maybe my you know the opponents in some cases may have worked in my favor as well yeah yeah I mean I will say that

I also you know I compared to today for sure I mean I was just ahead of the curve in understanding magic back then as well and the longer I've been involved in magic and you know I've done some sort of commentary lately, like with the super leagues that my regular ran and, uh, I covered the magic online championship when we did it online a few years ago. Um, so I still occasionally do commentary now and I watch a lot of magic

coverage. Um, and the one thing that I have realized now is being good at magic and being on top of your game in many ways is is still the most important thing to being good at commentary and and it's not because it's not because that's what people necessarily want from commentary but because when you when you always understand what's happening it just frees you up to be a better partner be entertaining um when you don't have to think of as hard about the magic where you can say intelligent things about the game as it's happening um and still have enough brain power left to be a good um you know sort of entertainer um or entertainer slash journalist um i think that's just worth a lot and i've just been constantly blown away by almost every really

good magic player i've always like wow this person's way better commentary than i would have expected them to be based on their personality. It's because they're just really good at magic and that makes the commentary. I'm sure I'm biased because that kind of spiky player commentary appeals to my sensibilities. As a consumer of magic

content, I'm sure I'm biased towards liking those kind of commentators. I still think it's really important. I was one of the good magic players back then, so'm sure I'm biased towards liking those kind of commentators, but I still think it's really important. I was a good Magic fan back then, so I think I probably stood out from the group a little bit more. Okay, I want to jump ahead, because before we run out, I definitely want to talk about Kuala Lumpur.

Okay. So you had been to a couple of invitations, so this is the Magic Invitational at Kuala Lumpur. You had been to a number of Magic Invitational before that you were a frequent, the fans used to vote you in all the time to go and see if you remember this

I used to tell you you were invited and by the end of the proctor you had to tell me whether you were going or not and for Kuala Lumpur I went back to you and you said I'm not going to go I'm out, do you remember this? really? yes, and I had to talk you into going do you remember this? no, yeah you said, I'm not going to go. I'm out. Do you remember this? Really? Yes. And I had to talk you into going. Do you remember this? No.

Yeah, you were like, I've done it. I don't need to do it anymore. And I'm like, oh, come on, Chris. You enjoy it. And I had to talk you into saying yes, which I did, obviously. Kuala Lumpur is so far. Anyway, I got you to say yes, but you did say yes.

So let's talk about what happened at Kuala Lumpur. So this is... For people that don't know, it's the invitation you won. So this is obviously... Right. So obviously, it seems like I won. I beat John Fink in the finals, which... Pretty big moment for me.

Each of us had a colossal misplay, which is interesting. Well... Oh, and real quick, the audience doesn't know this. The finals in the Invitational is there were five formats and you played each of the five formats. And one of the formats was Solomon.

I was Solomon Draft, which you're not very good at. Solomon Draft, I'm just terrible. I famously lost to you in it once. So famous to me. It's a famous event to me. So I'm really bad at Solomon Draft. So really I had to win three out of four.

Solomon Draft is also like many people consider to be like the real skill testing format, which is why it's so embarrassing that I lost to you, but also why there was just no chance I could beat John. So really I had to win three of the four other formats is how I viewed it. Yeah. And that is how it played out. So yeah, beating John in the finals of that is obviously amazing. But the big thing from that tournament, the other big thing besides, you know, me winning

and Middling Mage, is that i showed up at that tournament and i was very unhappy with our decks i was like i don't like the decks we built i don't think they're good i don't know what i'm going to play so i went to dave humphries and i said hey are you guys willing to share technology i mean i'll be honest i don't think our decks are great which is why i'm coming to you but uh um but what do you think like i you know do you want to share like work together and this is like the day before and i don't know i assume he proposed it but it doesn't sound i don't know who proposed it but i know that he was like whatever it's not a pro tour it's no big deal but he said to me

I'll show you what I'm playing but if you win this tournament you have to fly me to wherever the tournament is next year because there was always a Grand Prix there was always a Grand Prix on site associated with the Invitational so he said okay fine you can see my decks

if you win the tournament, you need to fly me to the Grand Prix where the Invitational is next year. I was like, yeah, okay, fine. So that actually happened and I had to fly Dave to Australia. Right, he was in Sydney. Not a cheap flight to Australia.

Yeah, the thing I always remember about Kuala Lumpur, we were at some, like, amusement park or something. It was some, like, some half water park,

half amusement park thing. Do you remember that? I remember we went bowling. Yeah. We went to the night market. Remember the night market? I remember bowling. I don't remember

the amusement park thing. Well, I mean, we were staying at, the place we were staying at was some, like, resort. Oh, right. I mean, we didn't really The place we were staying at was some resort.

Oh, right. We didn't really go to it. Yes. It was this big Kuala Lumpur resort that we had no idea what it was. Yeah. That was a cool trip. It's so long ago. Since we're almost out of time,

I want to hear a little bit about winning the card. What is it like winning an Invitational card? I mean, it's amazing. Having the card is amazing, especially because it really, it's not what I submitted, but first of all, it's better than what I submitted, which obviously makes it cooler. They changed the card, but it's very, very much in the spirit of what I wanted which is the most important thing yeah we worked with you

you worked with me to get me something I would be happy with I think that I happened to win the Invitational at a time where magic design was changing a lot so it was very difficult for me to design a card that was going to fit perfectly with the direction that you guys were taking magic design.

So it made more sense for me. In many ways, it made more sense for me to give you the gist of what I wanted and for you to come up with the specifics. And it worked out amazing. It was really exactly... Of course, now it's sort of underpowered by modern standards.

I don't know if you saw the thing going around on Twitter about the card I submitted in 2002. Oh, I did not, but... Which was a much fancier design that ended up sort of like being ahead of the Magic Design crew. I designed a 2-2 goblin

that you could tap to reveal, you remove the top card of your library from the game, and if it was a goblin, a sorcery, or a mountain, you could play it. Okay. Which is basically like a red card now. Yeah. That was 18 years ago. Yeah.

But Meddling Mage, there wasn't really a card like it, so I wasn't sure exactly how to design it. I think I actually submitted a Spikedale creature. You sacked it to counter the creature. You named a card, and you could sack it to counter the card that you named, I believe is what it was. Right. Anyway,

it worked out amazing, because it was exactly really 100% in the spirit of what I wanted, and a really powerful card. It's been a four of in two decks that won Pro Tour, or three decks. It's been a four of and two decks that won Pro Tour. Or three decks. It's been a four of and three decks that won Pro Tour. And obviously no other Invitational card has done that.

Yeah, and the intent when I came up with the prize was to give somebody something that would mean a little more to them than just winning some cash at the tournament. It sort of put you as part of magic in a way that was just very different. Oh, absolutely. It's incredible. I wish you still did it.

Well, we started the World Champions. We're starting to work with them on a card. We're kind of redoing it a little bit with the World Champions now. That's a great idea. But anyway, Chris, I realize I'm approaching my desk so I'm almost to work.

Do you have any last thoughts before we wrap up today? Last thoughts? Yeah. People always ask, people, whenever they interview me, they ask me last thoughts. I'm like, no, I did not prepare any clothes in your box. Yeah, I don't know. I hope magic, you know, post-quarantine, we figure out how to make in-person magic happen again and feel as exciting as it used to feel.

I guess that's my only closing thought. We will. Once we get some sort of the proper medicine, we'll get there. Magic will return. But anyway, I'm at my desk, so we all know what that means. It means it's the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. So Chris, thank you for being

with us. Thank you for having me. And guys, I will see you next time. Bye-bye.