Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #762: Mike Turian

Episode Date: July 31, 2020

In this podcast, I talk with Mike Turian, Pro Tour Hall of Famer and coworker. I talk with him about his time working as a Magic developer and his current job as principal product designer. What is that? Listen and learn.

So I'm not pulling out of the driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for the Drive to Work Coronavirus Edition. Okay, so I've been doing fun interviews. That continues. I today have Mike Turian. Hey, Mark. It's good to not be in your car. Yes, well, you join me on my Drive to Work. Man, this used to mean something. Now it's sitting in my den okay so i'll start with a

question i've been asking everybody how did you get into magic okay so i started playing magic uh the first pack of magic that i purchased was the dark uh so a couple of years ago now yeah uh and the way it sort of happened was, originally I had heard about Magic through, I was in high school at the time, and, you know, in English class, sort of in the back of the room, these guys, they were playing this card game.

I didn't really know what it was, but, you know, it looked fun, it looked interesting, and they actually taught me to play when we were at sort of this overnight camp. And, you know, I kind of treated it as like any other sort of board game of like, hey, that was a fun evening activity. But then I my mom sent me to a different leadership training program. I remember the name slap very well. It like student leadership something something and which i uh me and my high school friends of course had uh fun times with uh and at that uh at that activity my friend ari stuhlman every day it was a week-long program

and on monday he's like hey you got to come check out this game. And on Tuesday, he said it again. And finally, when he asked me for the third time on Wednesday, I was like, all right, fine. Like, I could tell he was just going to ask me on Thursday and Friday, too, right? So it was just easier to go along. We went down to the card store, and lo and behold, it was that same card game that I'd been playing, you know know a few months prior now i really wish i had sort of picked it up a few months prior right and just got in even more at the ground floor of course but uh yeah we we bought some dart we we started playing with revised and you know i i remember opening it up and it totally blew my mind just at the time it was so unlike any other game i'd ever played

you know the fact that you could customize the components as you went was such a novel and fun idea for me uh that i i fell in love and you know here we are 25 plus years later and you know i was i was playing jumpstart on magic arena last night so uh i clearly still love it okay so how old were you when you started man i'm it was between my freshman and sophomore years of high school so i i think i think that means i was either 13 or 14 uh you know i yeah i must i must have been i'm gonna say 14 if i'm but that's it's a long time ago that that's what i really remember okay so did you play continually since then like up till we'll get to your wizard's days did you play continually or did you stop for a while

uh no i i mean yeah i i was really hooked um the. I played in my first event. So if I started playing, I'll say in August or September, which if I recall is about when The Dark came out. I played in my first event in November, and I came in second place. It was like an 80-person event. And I really loved the tournament scene. I mean, eventually I would go on to play at Pro Tours and whatnot. But the tournaments and the constant events really always kept me engaged, right? So even if there was, you know, a month or two where, you know, I was focusing on other things,

I would still be playing Magic, you know uh in traveling to events even at basically all the time the only the only sets for me that i really don't have as much experience with are actually when i joined wizards later on like you know you have that sort of gap in time as we work on sets ahead of time right so there So there were a couple of sets in the Champions, in the Kamigawa block, that I just had a lot less experience with because of jumping ahead in time. But no, I mean, I've played weekly, daily, monthly, ever since I've started playing.

Okay, so we only have a half an hour and you've worked at Wizards a long time. So you played on the Pro Tour, you did really well, you made the Hall of Fame. We're not even going to get into that. That could be its own podcast. But you obviously had a lot of success. So how did you get to Wizards? Okay, so

yes, that's sort of... I like how we consolidated my Hall of Fame magic career into a small soundbite. 15 seconds. You did a lot. You made the Hall of Fame. Boom. Moving on.

Boom. Yeah. It's a lot of plane flights here and there and everywhere. So through the course of that, I was fortunate enough to meet Randy Buehler and become teammates with Randy during that whole Hall of Fame, pro tour career time. And Randy would go on and join Magic R&D. And at the time, he was the director of Magic R&D. And so he basically, every fall, they'd be looking for new interns or new contractors to join.

And Randy, as the director of magic rd had full hiring power and so basically my interview with randy was because they were looking for you know play designers like people who could really play test and assess the power level of cards um so i had i drove out to seattle after graduating from the University of Pittsburgh, and I was just crashing on a friend's couch, basically knowing that, hey, this contract opportunity would be coming up again. And so my interview process was actually Randy invited me out to lunch at a Mexican restaurant, and I had my interview for the contract position over lunch. interview for the contract position over the lunch and basically randy was like look you know you're here there's no one i would rather have join uh magic r&d in this role and so uh that was my that was my interview right and it was so great that of course the pro tour meant that you know i'd already met uh you know people like you mark um so i was already kind of known uh within

magic r&d so there was just a little less of that typical formality of interviews so yeah, that was really it, I went to a Mexican restaurant for lunch and I started a couple weeks later in Magic R&D What was the first thing you worked on? The first set I was on was Guild Pact that I was actually on the team for. I did playtesting for Ravnica. Saviors of Kamigawa was basically totally done by the time that I had showed up.

So I was playing FFL with those cards but uh they were they were complete um so that sort of gives you the time frame also uh i think cold snap team sort of uh fired up around that time so i was on the cold snap team as well um so yeah it was many years ago i remember i remember uh i had a book of that that had all the magic cards in it right all the magic images in it you know i don't think gather even existed back uh back when i started i'd have to double check but i remember at the time looking at that and then sort of being like okay this is all of magic that has existed before i started working on magic right and now now you know the amount of cards we've put out like would way would way overwhelm that so i'm super proud of all the

work that you know we've done making so many fun cards okay so the first set you led that you're on the development lead was scars of mirrodin correct well scars of mirrodin was the first uh the first large set that i uh what did you leave before scars of mirrodin was the first uh the first large set that i uh what did you leave before scars of mirrodin so so the first set i was the lead for i believe was future site oh future site okay right yeah so the sets the sets i led as a developer or final designer as we now call them uh scars of mirrodin worldway conflux morning tide future site uh so yeah so imagine being uh you know, I mean, I've worked now in R&D for a couple of years

by the time this all came up, but then FutureSight was my first one. I think I had the list backwards. So FutureSight's your first set. So that was a challenging first set to lead the development on. Yeah, absolutely. That was something else.

Like, hey, we're going to show all of these crazy mechanics and we want to be predicting the future of magic. And, you know, so that was, of course, you know, as you've told many times before, it was a set where we initially were planning on introducing planeswalkers, right? So all of this was, we were looking to jam into, I believe, 180 cards a day. Yeah, the story I often tell is we do something called hole filling, where we give out stuff for people to make cards. And so for Future Sight, we had the future shift of cards, with the cards from the future. And you did a hole filling, and you came to me and you go, none of it works, Mark. I need you to make me cards, make me some future cards.

Right. Yeah, no, that's totally that, that, that I think really encapsulates how future site win as a design because it's just so out of the box, right? Like it's outside, outside of the box. And, and working on that, it just, you know, I was really glad to be able to tap into your insight and designs there because you just need to really have a really strong fundamental understanding of what matters in design to sort of understand

what the future could even be, right? And to project that. Yeah, so like I said, that was a challenging first set. So that's the first set you led. The second set you led was Morning Tide, which was in the Lorman block. And that was, I had the brilliant idea

of having the first set be a race tribal set and the second set being a class tribal set. So how did that go? You know, there were definitely different challenges tribal set and the second set being a class tribal set so how did that go uh you know it was there were definitely different challenges with morning tide than there were with a future site right future site had the that i i remember i remember really distinctly looking at this grid because i think lorwyn had like eight uh classes eight races yeah eight races yeah sorry eight races and then morning tide had five classes uh right and so like you know and of course then real quickly just because i want to explain to

the audience a race would be like goblin or elf and a class would be like warrior or wizard okay yeah yeah yeah exactly right and so then there were, right, there were the classes, there were the races, and then basically, and then you overlay the colors, and you end up with this like huge matrix of things. I certainly felt for players when they were experiencing that matrix through gameplay because it was just a little bit too much to care about. Yeah, that set directly led to New World Order getting created. Yeah, because

when you're talking about matrix, that is a mathematical thing. When you're talking about playing magic and having fun it's like of course math matters for magic but yeah the fun is really where you want to be uh focusing things and so yeah new world order uh came about around that time also yeah yeah so i think the theme so far i see is you just get very complicated sets to work on yeah right yeah there's definitely,

well, because, I mean, at the time, and I think that, you know, to New World Order's credit, it sort of reset how Magic R&D thought about it, right? We were, a lot of our innovation was coming through complexity. And so, you know, with New World Order, with the reintroduction of the core set,

you know, we sort of said, hey, let's step back, let's hit on more resonance, let's hit on these tropes and these themes that make magic so much fun. And you can sort of see that now in all of our newer design sets. Okay, so the next set you led was Conflux. Yeah, so Conflux was really fun uh you know because one of the things to me about conflux was it was all about nickel bolus right and you know it was one of the sets that had only that single planeswalker in the set and well let's read your plans real quickly so Planeswalkers got introduced in Lorwyn, the plan at the time was it'd be a sporadic thing that every once in a while we do. Not every set would have Planeswalkers was the idea originally. And so, yeah, your set, right, the only Planeswalker I think in Conflux was Nicol Bolas.

only one and you're right like like now typically a set will have around three planeswalkers in it right uh you know three to five and but yeah so for conflux it was like hey okay we're doing another planeswalker and and i remember i remember you being like you know basically saying hey the nickel bullets that we have just isn't cutting it and. And you sat down one day and you sent me this whole page, pages of designs, because basically you were like, look, it's Nicol Bolas. It needs to be awesome. And it was exactly what the set needed. I was super happy with how Nicol Bolas came out in that set. And also I remember, too too just a fun little aside

that i believe that somehow the the names of the conflux cards uh were shown ahead of time you know were leaked or whatnot and uh but but none of the mechanics and so i remember the internet's excitement overseeing nickel bullets planeswalker but just and then having no idea what he did and speculating uh so really to me that sort of focus on nickel bowl is uh it was one of the things i was happy with how conflicts came out okay so after conflicts you next did world wake so conflicts was the second set in shards of lara block next set you did was world wake which was the second set in uh zikar block. Yeah, Zendikar. Yeah, so, I didn't,

I'm sure you've told the audience about sort of your fights with Landfall and getting Landfall made, but I always really, I always really... I gave you props here. So, the story I tell with Zendikar people know is that no one believed in the Lands Matter set, but one person,

one person did believe and that was you mike turian you're the only person that believed so i want to give you props thank you thank you yes i i did believe in you mark i i think that uh you know in retrospect it sounds so obvious it's like of course lands matter of course that'll be awesome but at the time yeah people really really gave you a lot of hard time and a lot of grief about like how can lance possibly better um so anyhow so as as part of that you know because i worked on the zendikar team uh and and then i was leading world wake uh and world wake is another set that's you know jace the mind sculptor was the only planeswalker in the set

and once again it's like all right how are we going to make jace awesome uh you know what what is what is this super awesome planeswalker who's you know in the gate watch and this and that like how is it pre-gate watch this is pretty good it was pre-gate watch at the time but just yeah you know he was a major player jace was our major player yeah jace was one of the most famous and popular planeswalkers yes yes uh and we knew that and he was one uh one of the most beloved of the original uh of the original lorwyn five um and so all right we want to make world wake awesome we want to make jace awesome. We want to make Jace awesome. And then, of course, everything around Land Matters. And, you know, so it was a really fun set to work on.

And, you know, of the sets that we're talking about, it's sort of, I don't know, it has a special place in my heart for sure. If only you made Jace the Mind Sculptor good. It turns out, yeah. I always used to be, yeah, I made the most powerful planeswalker of all time. Now perhaps Oko is sort of in competition for that. But yeah, Jace, he turned out really powerful. I mean, and we wanted him to. You know, we were looking to sort of brand build and awareness build around Jace and around Planeswalkers.

You know, I probably would have gone back and done it slightly differently given learnings of the past. But he certainly did come out powerful. Yeah, quick story behind that just so people don't know. When we originally made Planeswalkers and they made the frames for Planeswalkers, I said to them, design a three loyalty Planeswalker and design a four loyalty. We're going to do a four loyalty, so design the frame. And I know when we,

I came to you when we were doing this and I said, it's time. It's time for the four. So the one thing we gave you from design, you designed the card, but we said it has four loyalty abilities. That's the one thing we knew about it from design, that we had planned the frame from the beginning.

Right, yeah, we knew for sure, yes, when it was handed off to me, it was mostly a blank slate, and also the this is going to have four abilities and sort of vision principles around how we thought the

how those four abilities would would work together right we knew we wanted an ultimate and then all right what are these other three abilities going to work and also of course since we're putting words on the card those abilities both need to be cool and awesome and fit on the card yeah yeah that's something people don't think a lot about we think all the time but like logistics like that's awesome it doesn't think a lot about that we think all the time, like logistics. Like, that's awesome. It doesn't fit on the card. We do it. Right, right.

That's for sure. Okay, next up is I think the last set you led the development for. You've had many jobs at Wizards. We'll talk about that in a second. So, Scars of Mirrodin. Yeah, Scars of Mirrodin. Yeah. The original Mirrodin was one of my all-time favorite magic sets right at the time I was working on Scars of Mirrodin. The original Mirrodin was one of my all-time favorite magic sets right at the time I was working on Scars of Mirrodin. You know, I had a lot of success on the Pro Tour playing the set. I always really enjoyed equipment and the introduction of uh phyrexia right and you know one of the things to me that

always stick out about scars of mirrored in was bringing uh poison back to magic i mean you know been part of magic of course but really scars of mirrored in folk uh with in fact and how we're going to bring this poison mechanic back and do it in a new, fun way. So a lot of Scars of Mirrodin was both that Mirrodin representing doing equipment, which, of course, we had some power level challenges with prior, and then doing, in fact, in the right way. Yeah, the other thing, a little behind-the-scenes thing is I tried to bring Affinity back, but R&D decided it was a little too risky,

so we didn't end up doing it. But I tried. Yeah, I remember between the reintroduction of Poison and wanting Affinity to return, that I had a lot of conversations with a lot of internal people around, okay, is this possible? Is that possible?

Because both of the mechanics were, you know, controversial for very different reasons. Okay, so now, so the next, I'm going to do what I did with your pro-pro career with your middle of magic career, middle of wizard's career. So you left R&D to go work in various other sections of the

company. Where all did you work? You worked? Yes. So I went from R&D, I went over to organized play and worked on the organized play team for a couple years. Then that brought me down to the technology team and I worked as a producer for the technology team. Eventually, that would lead me to become product manager for Magic Online and then business and marketing manager for Magic Duels. And then I came back to Magic R&D a few years ago as a principal product designer. Okay, so let's explain what that is since you you and I have some idea, but the audience does not. What is a principal product designer? What do you do?

So principal product designer, if you think of the vision designer as sort of that initial, like, your role of, hey, what is the vision of the set? And spending time and being like, okay, what matters for, you know, I'll say Throne of Eldraine. Yeah, Throne of, you know, I'll say Throne of Eldraine. Yeah, Throne of Eldraine.

Let's start with Throne of Eldraine. It's a good example. Yeah. So, okay, Throne of Eldraine. Oh, how much of it is storybook? How much of it is fantasy? How much of it is fairy tale, right? And the vision designer spends a lot of time both figuring out what that vision is

and then building the structure and outline around the vision. So in my role, one of the big things I do is then I'm one of the people that carry the vision, you know, through game design. I work with the final designers to basically make sure that there's connections there. But then throughout the whole company, right? I mean, I know that we spend a lot of time here talking about Magic R&D, but, you know but just in my walk through Wizards, I was an organized play. I was on the brand team. I was on the technology team.

And then there's sales team, customer service, et cetera, et cetera. to make sure that the vision for each of these sets gets carried through so that when you're at the pre-release, your experience there, like, oh, if there is a pre-release kit, what's in that pre-release kit, aligns with all the way back to the early work that the vision designer does. So that's, I mean, of course. And then there's plenty more to it, but that's sort of like a brief encapsulation of, you know, one of my main functions. Right. So one of the things that you and I interact all the time is a lot I feel of your job is I sort of, I and my team establish a vision and then you sort of carry it through the product to make sure that the vision happens.

that the vision happens. A good example might be Ikoria. I'm like, it's a monster set and then once, it's your job to make sure that everybody else knows it's a monster set,

that the packaging looks like a monster set, that the marketing looks like a monster, you know, that everybody's working in the same direction because one of the,

kind of the whole point to a vision in the first place is it's about this, not about three other things, it's about this. Yeah. Like I know, for example, Throne of other things, it's about this. Yeah. Like, I know for example, Throne of Eldraine, you and I had a

long talk, because, so Throne of Eldraine was fairy tales meets Camelot. That was kind of the pitch from the very beginning. And the thing I said to you is, while Camelot is cool, it's not, magic is done at 8,000 times, you know what I'm saying? It's like, look, there's knights, and, you know, like, that's cool,

but that's something magic does all the time. And I'm like, you know, the fairytale thing we don't do all the time. And I sort of explained to you that if you're going to sell the set, it's not that the set doesn't have the Camelot stuff, but that's not the exciting thing. Look, magic has knights finally. It's not, no one gets, you know, no one's going to go, knights and magic.

But when you say, oh, look, it's Goldilocks, people, what? You know, it makes people stand up. And part of my job is to say to you, look, this's Goldilocks, people, what? It makes people stand up, and part of my job is to say to you, look, this is what's going to sort of sell the set. This is the part of the set that's going to be the exciting thing, and then your job is to make sure that everybody understands that, so, you know, it all...

It's all the teams, like I said, just walking through what you've done, there's so many teams at Wizards. Part of the reason I'm doing these interviews is, like, look at all these different teams that exist. And... Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, you mentioned Decoria and being a

monster set, and I think part of that, like, when I was working on the Godzilla Box Topper cards, right, it was like, hey, how come this is the right promotion to do with the set? It's like, well, it's the monster set. Godzilla is the king of the monsters.

Hey, let's take a look at building a partnership. How do we want to successfully introduce these cards to Magic in a way that complements the vision and complements the design? So that way, players who are excited about that type of promotion can be excited about it and players who want to focus on mutate and companion and all the other monster mechanics can still be excited about that right and so that's that's you know the godzilla promotion came along well after vision design had handed off but sometimes those opportunities uh arise and you know it's my role to say hey that doesn't fit within the vision of the set let's let's stay away from that yeah the other thing that people may not realize is um there's a lot of things that surround a set you know like nowadays

for example sometimes we have commander product tied to a set or we might have um and or even just in any one set you know for, for example, the collector pack. Like, there's a lot of components that happen in a set now. Like, when I think of you these days, I'll be writing some article and I'll message you going, okay, what's in this, what's in that, you know, and making sure I have everything straight so that I can communicate it. And you have to keep track of all that stuff. Yeah, I do. I both have to keep track of the collector booster information

and I have to be working with the internal teams on planning it out, making sure that our print vendors have a good idea of it, making sure that our internal operations people have a full understanding of, hey, this is what this collector booster represents because a lot of what booster fun is is you know we're trying to have fun with it we're trying to go to these fun amazing art styles and introduce these cards in a fun way uh so tip that means that there's just variation between what we did with uh akoria and did with Eldraine and, you know, Theros Beyond Death, like, there's a little bit less of that typical cadence. And we're just introducing more variation because for each set,

we want to be representing that set as well as possible. And you, nowadays, you do a lot of what we call premiere sets. The non-core premiere sets is what you tend to work on, right? Yeah, right. So, I mean, of sets that have been released, Throne of Eldraine, Ikoria, Layer of Behemoths, Zendikar Rising, which I know,

I think you'll have already talked about once this goes live. And so those are some sets, as well as Double Masters. So those are sets just coming out here in 2019 and this year, 2020, that I've been the lead for. Yeah, like I said, one of the things that I... It's hard. I think when I tell stories about like I came up with the card and the people are like, and it got made or something

I had an idea for a set and it got made they miss the hundreds of people working on it you know, and not, obviously R&D is part of it, but as you were talking about, there's just so many different sections that all have to come together it is not like

I talk a lot about getting R&D on board. Then you have to get everybody else on board, which is a huge number of teams. Yeah, totally. I mean, one of the things that's, you know, having gone from being a magic designer to now a principal product designer for magic, one of the things that's very clear is no matter how many times I've thought, oh, and now I've communicated all of the details, right? Now I've thought of everything. Basically, as soon as I make a post or communication, I get back, you know, 5.8 questions from the team that work in that

because there are so many details. I think that I could likely come on and do a half hour talk about how we change uh how we handle collector numbers uh in the bottom text of the car of the card with eldreen right and so it's just like oh here it is here's a number that's on the card that you always see and look at and like somebody and in fact lots of somebodies are out there being like all right how are collector numbers being handled for the set how do we want to order these etc you know what are the rules behind them yeah collector numbers is a great example i'll bet the average player doesn't think i mean they know they exist and they use them but i don't think people think the amount of work hours that go into collector numbers like if you ask the average player, they go, well, how hard is it?

And they have no idea. They have no idea the amount of hours. Yes, they have, yeah, and rightfully so, because, I mean, from our standpoint, it's like, oh, when you open a pack and when you're playing a game of Magic, we want you focused on the fun, right? And if you're looking down at the footer and seeing,

oh, I wonder why this card is 268 slash 270, right? Then we haven't done our job. I want you focusing on, oh, this is a great magic card. You know, look at this cool play I made. This is the deck I want to build. Those are the things that, you know, that's why we all play Magic. Yeah, and when you look at a Magic card, it's a great thing to just take a normal Magic card and look at it,

and every aspect of that card, no matter what part you look at, some team has spent a lot more time than you could possibly imagine on making sure that is what it needs to be. Whether it's the name, the mana cost, the art, the card type, the collector number, the legal text, you know, the flavor type.

It's every piece of the card. There's a lot that goes on to every single piece. And it is definitely, anyway, it's, I'm hoping a lot of these interviews get people to see that of all the people that are working on all these different things. Yeah. Yeah. to see that of all the people that are working on all these different things so yeah yeah no it's it's i'm glad you're doing them uh because i think that you know in a podcast it is it is a really fun way to sort of open people's eyes i mean i i remember back like your original question was talking about oh you know how did you start at wizards like people now ask me the question

like oh did you always know you were going to be a game designer like is that something that when you were growing up you wanted to be i was like i didn't even realize that was a possibility like it wasn't even in my mind space that like you know when i'm playing you know uh access and allies with my dad or playing risk with my cousin that like somebody makes this game and now of course even you know with those games too all of these details of how how this box of components gets onto a shelf and insult to me i have such a greater understanding of it but you know as a kid it wasn't like oh yeah that'll be my career but here we are now it is and it's yeah the it's funny now when i open a game and i

play a brand new game how i'll marvel at components sometimes like wow they really handle these components well right right like oh look at these molds my goodness so anyway it's funny it's kind of funny uh how uh like my olden days when i used to be a writer like i i'd go to a movie or something and you can see the structure when you understand it and it's interesting how when you get to know something you can't not see the behind the scenes stuff because that's what you do all the time so yeah well and that's how I mean to me it's one of the the great ways that I know that I'm really uh you know still in love with magic and into the game is like when i play right like yes if i stop

and think about it i'll be like oh here's this here's this aspect that sort of is unlocked but typically i'm just in the game i'm just having fun right i'm thinking about what my next play is right i'm not which is attacking i believe yeah Yeah, which is always attacking, yes. Always attack. That's a good rule of thumb. Okay, so I'm approaching my desk now, so we need to wrap this up. So any last thoughts before I get to work?

Any last thoughts? Well, you know, I think to me, man, I didn't know about this. You know, I'm excited for Zendikar Rising. It's going to be so much fun. I mean, every time that we go and we revisit a world that I worked on, you know, originally, right? Like you mentioned us working on original Zendikar together. There's always just that thrill of like, oh, where is this world going to go next? Where is this plane going to go next?

So I'm really excited about that upcoming release. You know, I guess that's, I don't know. By the way, I get a great joy every time we do another Zendikar set, just because the number of years that people just didn't believe we would ever do it so anyway i mean that's yeah that that's exactly what you know i'm going for like oh you know if we do a set with reprints like i super love when we're doing a set with reprints and i'm like oh i made this card like i can go back and check my files and you know talk about the design of it

uh you know just seeing seeing reprints seeing us revisit places uh in that way that's so much fun and of course too i mean since we mentioned future site i super love when a card from future site is introduced uh into magic that's always uh it's always fun because you know especially now so many years after future sites release like you know the the stars really need to align now yeah we're one of those future site cards to uh uh happen not not relating that to zendikar rising at all i'm just uh just talking about that in general well thank you mike you, Mike. So I see my desk. So we all know what that means. It means this is the end of my drive to work.

So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. So thanks, Mike, for joining us. Thanks, Mark, for having me. Anyway, guys, I will see you next time. Bye-bye.