Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #788: 25 Years

Episode Date: October 30, 2020

October 30, 2020 was my 25th anniversary of working at Wizards. In this podcast, I talk about the many things I've done in those 25 years.

I'm not pulling out of my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another Drive to Work Coronavirus Edition. Okay, so today, and by today I don't mean the day I'm recording this, but the day you are listening to this, which is October 30th, 2020, is my 25th anniversary working at Wizards. 25 years. So I thought today I would use my 30-ish minutes to go through my entire time at Wizards to talk about all the various different things I've done. I'm not going to hate them all, but I'll do the best I can and give you a glimpse of the many things that I had done. Okay, so

in 1995, October 30th, 1995, I show up at Wizards. I want to talk about things as they got released, even though obviously I worked on them ahead of time, and the order I worked on them might not be exactly, but it's a little easier to talk about release things. So the first thing that I worked on that actually happened

was not even a product release. It was the Pro Tour. So in February of 1996 was the first Pro Tour in New York City. I had worked with Scaf Elias, whose brainchild the Pro Tour was. I had asked if I could be involved. I was officially made the liaison from R&D to the Pro Tour, and I worked very closely with Scaf.

And the first eight years of the Pro Tour, I went to almost all the Pro Tours. I ran the feature matches. I did all the... On the last day, I did commentary in the very beginning, but then I produced and ran the video stuff and the commentary. I didn't do the commentary, but I did commentary in the very beginning, but then I produced and ran the video stuff and the commentary. I didn't

do the commentary, but I oversaw it. I produced it for the first eight years of the Pro Tours existence. The first set I worked on, which came out in 1996, was Alliances. I was one of 13 developers on that set. Everybody who was in Magic

R&D, or just in R&D at the time, Homeland the previous year had done really badly, and Magic had a big gap before the next set came out, and we wanted to make sure it was really good, so everybody worked on that. The first three cards I ever made, Library of Lotnum, Goose of Scepter, and Soldier of Fortune, all showed up on that set.

That's the first three cards I ever made. They got... I'm sorry. That I ever designed, they got published in a Magic set. Then, the end of that year, Mirage came out. So, I was hired as a developer. And so, for the first couple years, I was, I, Mike Elliott, Bill Rose, and William Jockish, and then at some point, Henry Stern, were on all the development teams. We were Magic R&D for a while, Henry Stern, were on all the development teams. We were Magic R&D for a while, so we were just on all the development teams.

Mirage is also the place where I made Morrow. I filled a hole with a card I'd made years ago, and I got my nickname. The card ended up getting printed called Morrow. That's got my nickname. Okay, in 1997, Visions came out,

so I was on the development team for that. Fifth edition, I was actually on the design team, although there's no new content. But I helped pick what cards went in. Weather Light, again, I was on the development team. Portal, I was actually on the development team. That was a product we made to teach people how to play. And then at the end of 1997 was Tempest.

So Tempest was the first set that I officially was on the design team for. And now when I'm on the design team, I led the design team. That is not how things work anymore. But I was hired as a developer, but I really, really wanted to be a designer. And so I convinced Richard Garfield. He hadn't done any design on Magic since Arabian Nights. And I convinced him to be on the team with me. And that was enough to convince Joel Mick, who was the lead developer,

or lead designer at the time, the head designer at the time, to let me run the team. Tempest was the first in-house design. Before that, all the designs had been done by people outside. Well, technically, Weatherlight was done inside as well, but Tempest started before Weatherlight, because large sets took longer to make. But anyway, Tempest was my first time

being on a design team and leading a design team. It went very well. Also, so I bring up Weatherlight and Tempest. At the same time, during that time, Michael Ryan and I pitched the idea of Magic having an ongoing story, which was called the Weatherlight Saga.

And from Weatherlight through Exodus, he and I were in charge of the story. It got sort of taken away from us in Exodus. That's its own story. But anyway, we were there for the start of the Weatherlight Saga. I would continue to be working on the card side of it still, but I stopped doing the creative side of it after Exodus. working on the card side of it still, but I stopped doing the creative side of it after Exodus. Also at this time, by the way, I had become the editor-in-chief of The Duelist.

The former editor-in-chief, Catherine Haynes, left, and they needed an editor-in-chief. They looked around, and they couldn't find somebody, and they ended up asking me, and so I spent a lot of my early time, in addition to all my responsibilities as a Magic R&D person, I was also Editor-in-Chief for the Duelists. Okay, we get into 1998. So Exodus and Stronghold. So now we get into sets that I was on the design team and I was on the development team for. I think I started the design for Stronghold and handed it off to Mike. I think Mike officially is listed as the lead for it, but I did a lot of design for Stronghold and handed it off to Mike.

I think Mike officially is listed as the lead for it. But I did a lot of work on Stronghold. But anyway, I was on the design teams for Exodus, Stronghold and Exodus. And also, Unglued came out that year. That's a product that was given to me by Joel Mick. And basically, it was like, here's the idea of the product. It has silver borders, which means it's not termed illegal because at that point,

everything else was termed illegal. We were just starting to get into formats and stuff. And anyway, the idea was this was, what would you do with that? You're the wacky designer, Mark. And so I ended up deciding to make strange mechanics and a little more casual and make it a little fun, added a lot of humor into it, and so

Unglued came out of that. And the Silver Border cards have always been my baby. The Un cards hold a deep place in my heart. Urza Saga, I was on the design team for and the development team, Urza's legacy, design team, and the development team.

Then we get to Urza's Destiny. Design Team, and the Development Team. Then we get to Urza's Destiny. So, that, I was, was the Design Team. I was the only person on the Design Team. I believe Arabian Knights and Urza's Destiny had the uniqueness of having one-person Design Teams. Obviously, Richard Garfield did Arabian Knights. But anyway, I was not on the Development Team, because I was the sole designer, so I wasn't on the development team. Then we get to Mercadian Masks, where I was not on the design... Well, I'm sorry, I was on the design team.

I did do design. I was on both the design team and the development team for Mercadian Masks. So, interesting, from alliances forward, from the very first set I work on, I believe there's a run for a long, long, long time where I designed a card in every set that came out. Every set that had

new cards in it. And Mike Elliott and I at this point became the main two designers that were designing most of, led most of the sets. Bill still led a few sets as well. Okay, so we get to Nemesis where I think I

was on the design team for that. Prophecy, so interesting thing about Prophecy, I was not on the design team. William Jockish led that design team, I was not on it. But after it was done, Bill had some concerns about it, and so Bill and I did a redesign pass on it. We made the avatars, we made the winds, and so we just made some exciting rare cycles and stuff. And so at this point, Bill had become head designer. So Joel Mick was originally handed over to Bill. But you can see sort of me being trained to become head designer, although obviously it's a few years off.

But I'm starting to do redesign work on other people's stuff. Then comes Invasion. Invasion, the design team was me. Bill Rose led it with me and Mike Elliott. I often said Mirage was the second age because we started designing blocks. Invasion is the third age of design where we started designing themes for the blocks.

This was the first block that had a theme. It was a multicolored theme. And I was a big advocate in pushing for that. So now we get to set. So Plane Shift, I was on the design team. Apocalypse, I was not on the design team for, but again, um, I and Henry Stern had pitched the idea of saving things for saving the enemy's color stuff. So it's the first kind of block planning that you're seeing, and I was a big advocate of that. So you're starting to see, you can see the traces of where I would go once I become a hand designer of, I really believe in planning

out blocks. Um, but anyway, um, that was Apocalypse. And then Odyssey comes out. So Odyssey was, uh, after Tempest, it was the second premiere, you know, standard legal set that I led the design for. And it had a theme. It had a graveyard theme.

Um, and so, uh, like Threshold and Flashback. Flashback starts here in Odyssey. 2002, we have the first You Make the Card. That was my brainchild. And I ran it. Also, by the way, in 2002

was MagicTheGathering.com started. So Magic didn't really have a website. Magic had a website, but we didn't have a, it wasn't something people regularly came to. And I was tasked with the idea of making it something people would visit, of making content for it. And so I helped get Aaron Forsythe hired to run it. And I started my column, Making Magic Starts Here in 2002, which I've been writing ever since. So 18 years of writing my column. I think next year, by the way, I hit my column, Making Magic Starts Here in 2002, which I've been writing ever since, so 18 years of writing my column.

I think next year, by the way, I hit my 1,000th week of writing the column. That'll happen in early 2021. Anyway, so I both helped design Magic the God in a Column and became one of the columnists. So other sets, Torment, Judgment, I was on those design teams. We get to Onslaught.

So this is a good example where I was not technically on the design team, but I was asked by Bill to do a lot of redesigns on it, really push to make the tribal mechanic a major theme, added morph, added cycling. So while I quote-unquote wasn't the lead of the set, I did a lot of rework on it. And once again, you can see me getting groomed

by Bill Rose to eventually become head designer. So now we get to 2003. Legions. I don't think Legions or Scourge I was on the design team for. When I get to the end, I'll talk about some other stuff.

While doing Magic, there's other things I was also working on all during this time. Um, then we get to Mirrodin. So Mirrodin, I led the design for, and I started getting very involved with, uh, creative. Oh, so this is 2003. So the end of 2003, by the way, is when I officially become head designer. Um, Bill Rose, a few years earlier, had become the vice president. And Randy Bueller

had become sort of filled in, became sort of the, I'm not sure what to call him, the director of R&D, of magic. And he promoted me, and I became head designer

in December 2003. Also that time, not and I became head designer in December 2003. Also at that time, not only was I head designer, but I also was put in charge of the creative team, and so I led the creative team for a couple years. But anyway, so that was other things I was doing. So 2004, I was on the design team for Dark Steel. I led the design for Fifth Dawn. That, interestingly, was Aaron Forsythe was brought on to write an article about it.

He was on the design team. He did such amazing work, designed both mechanics of the set, that we brought him into R&D, later become my boss, so obviously he did quite well for himself. Champs of Kamigawa, I was not on the design team for any of Champs of Kamigawa, but I was on the development team just for Champions. I was not on the development team for the other two sets. Interestingly, Betrayers of Kamigawa, when I became head designer,

was in the middle of, I think it had just finished design. I know I worked a little bit on it when transitioning from design to development. But Betrayers and Saviors were, quote unquote, under my startup as head designer. I really, Ravnica was the first set that I sort of, both of those were in motion. I just sort of kind of finished them off to be what they were.

Also, the Pro Tour Hall of Fame got introduced in 2005. I was instrumental in putting that together. It started in 1996. From 1996 through 2004, I was in mainstay at the Pro Tour. In 2004, my twins were born,

and I pulled back and stopped going to the Pro Tours regularly. Also, in 2005, we got to Ravnica City Guilds. So this is the first time that I... The first set that, from the beginning, I was the head designer. And I really had sort of... I decided to let Champions of Kamigawa be what it was going to be.

Made a lot of decisions I wouldn't have made, but it was already in motion. Ravnica was me sort of planting my flag in the sand and saying, here's what I want to do as head designer. I really wanted to introduce the idea of block planning. Obviously with Ravnica, you could see that. That, like, you know, they all fit together to make a larger thing. Also, during Ravnica, Hybrid Mana got introduced. It was a baby

of mine. Backdream Invasion, I got split cards made. There's certain things that, I mean, I've made a lot of cards mechanics over the years, but there's certain things that I'm super proud of. Okay, so in 2006, Guild Pack. I was not on the design team for that, but I did do some work after I got handed off

because I was the head designer. Dissension. I was on the design team for that. Coltsnap was the set that got the Lost Ice Age set that the story behind it was we'd asked, uh, the powers that be, uh, if they wanted us to have a set during the summer

and they said no. And then, like, six months later, they're like, you know what? We do. And so R&D had to quickly make this. And so we ended up making Cold Snap. Not we've done better work than Cold Snap. Um, then we get into oh and then was the great designer search

the very first great designer search Alexis Janssen won it Ken Nagel, Graham Hopkins, Mark Globus Scott Van Essen were all people that were on it know a while as well that ended up getting internships and most of them got jobs so anyway that was sort of

an idea I'd come up with. I was trying to find new designers because I was the head designer, and it was really hard to find designers because I couldn't just pluck them off the Pro Tour like development teams did. So I did a search, and I found some great designers, and I hired them. Next up is Time Spiral, which Brian Tinsman led the design for. I was on the design team. But you can start seeing me as head designer. Once again, block planning. There was a past, present, future.

I started having more of a definition to what the stuff is. Planar Chaos on the design team. Future Society led what I call my art house film sort of design. It's a really good design. There's a lot going on. There's a lot of nuance of it. It gets really, really good reviews from franchise players, but most of the players are just overwhelmed by it.

It's a little too much. But I am very proud of it. Future Sight was when we were going to first make Planeswalkers, by the way, but they did not get introduced until a little later. I'll talk to them in a second. Lorwyn. So Lorwyn was Aaron's first lead. I was on the design team for this.

At the time, I was prepping Aaron to be my protege. Little did I know that he would go on to do much grander and greater things. We did introduce Planeswalkers. I led the team. I oversaw the design on Planar Chaos, and then when we knew that we... I got Planar Chaos, sorry.

Future site. When we knew that we weren't goingar Chaos, sorry, future site, when we knew that we weren't going to have them done in time, we made a whole separate team, which I led, and we came up with Planeswalkers, borrowed a bunch of different ideas, Richard had come up with this thing called, what are they called, in Ravnica

structures, they were called structures, and I took some elements of that and some other stuff we had done in other places and sort of, with the whole team, we made the Planeswalkers. It turned out really well. First, dual decks got put out there. I was a big advocate of dual decks.

In fact, there's an article I wrote in The Duelist like in 95, where I talk about making decks to play against one another. So way back when, I'd been advocating for a long time to do them. Okay, so we get into 2008. Morning Tide, I was on the design team for. So Shadowmourne, Even Tide.

So I introduced the idea of doing a large set at a time other than of the fall, which is traditionally when it's done, or the Northern Hemisphere fall. And the idea was, after Coldsnep, I said to Bill, next time you want to do a summer set give me more advance warning I'll make it more organic and the idea I did

is I came up with this large small large small structure where it's a four year block but Shadowmoor was the first time we had a large set outside of the fall

and it went really well and really you could see us starting to pave the way for the future also Time Spiral for example

I passed Time Spiral but I introduced the idea of a bonus sheet in Time Spiral for example I passed Time Spiral but I introduced the idea of a bonus sheet in Time Spiral that would definitely inspire a lot of things so anyway the story about Eventide was I was not supposed to leave Eventide and the person who was supposed to lead it

at the very last minute decided they didn't want to do it and I know other people to lead it so I ended up having to lead it myself From the Vault comes out so the first couple I decided they didn't want to do it, and I know other people to lead it. So I ended up having to lead it myself. From the Vault comes out. So the first couple from the Vault, I was put in charge. I think I was on the team for the first one, and then I was in charge of the next couple.

But I was in charge early on of that product. Shards of Alara came out. So we had mini-teams for each of the shards. I led the Esper mini-team. I was on the mini-team for Bant and for Naya. And then, although I was not on the Crysis mini-team, I did come up with Unearthed, which was the mechanic for that. Okay, so we get into 2009.

I worked on Conflux Design. I did not work on Allura Reborn. When I first became head designer, I worked on a lot of design sets, but I wasn't on all of them. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that it was easier for me to sort of run things that just was on the design team so I could sort of see what was going on. So moving forward, I'm on most of the design teams. I'll point out a few that I wasn't on, but I was on most of them. Magic 2010 was Aaron's reinventing of the core set.

He asked me to be on that team. We were making new content for the first time and really rethinking what a core set was, so he wanted me involved, so I was definitely involved for that. Then came Zendikar. Zendikar was a set that I was trying forever. Lanzapalooza.

I really had this idea that we could build a block around land, a set in a world that was built around land mechanics, and there was some skepticism. I eventually got it made, and it ended up being very popular with the audience. Obviously, we're on our second visit this year, so people liked it. Okay, we get to Worldwake.

I was on Worldwake. Razzle-Drazzy. Interestingly, I was not on the design team of Razzle-Drazzy, but I was on the development team. Razzle-Drazzy, interestingly, I was not on the design team for Razzle-Drazzy, but I was on the development team. There's a few sets like that. Sometimes when I wasn't on the design team, I would be on the development team, so it would give me opportunity.

I think sometimes when I knew I was going to be on the development team, I wouldn't be on the design team, so I'd have a fresh set of eyes. I did that a couple times. Then we get to Scars of Mirrodin. So I led Scars of Mirrodin. Scars of Mirrodin so I led Scars of Mirrodin Scars of Mirrodin is definitely me

rethinking a little bit about me and playing a lot more psychology and trying to figure out the idea that sex had to make you feel something and I really said okay we're reintroducing the Phyrexians I kind of want to scare you with the Phrexians.

I want them to feel invasive. And so this is a... I talk about different stages of magic. This is really us... Sort of me upping the game, I thought, of design, of really involving more emotions in it. The other thing you'll notice with the start of Zendikar is there's a period of time...

Early on, I was handing off a lot of designs in the fall and then eventually came to the conclusion that what I needed to do was I did the fall set and then I handed off the winter and spring sets to other people and so for a while here I'm doing all the fall sets oh another interesting factoid uh with Shadamore starting back in 2008 uh from 2008 to 2018 was a 10-year run where I was leading in design every week consecutively for 10 years. In 2018, and not that I don't

do a lot of that. I lead most of the time, but I did have a 10-year run of consecutiveness. Okay, then we get into 2011. I did work on Married in a Siege. I did work on New Phyrexia. Innistrad was a false set so that was Innistrad's one of the sets I'm most proud of

I really think it is as far as a finished product especially a premiere set it's probably the best work I've ever done it was me really sort of getting into a lot of the stuff I'd played around with how to make a set feel something

I'd been trying to make a horror-themed top-down set for a while, and after getting the runaround, I finally got them to sign on, so I was very happy with how that turned out. 2012. So Dark Ascensions, I think the only

winter set I ever led the design for, I think. I mostly did fall sets, and occasionally I did spring sets, but I think that's the only winter set I ever led the design for, I think. I mostly did fall sets, and occasionally I did spring sets, but I think that's the only winter set I did. I was on the design team for Absinthe Restored. I was on the design team for Return to Ravnica. That's the

first fall set in a while that I hadn't led. Ken Legle led that design. Okay, we get to 2013. So Gatecrash is the first time I co-ledled a set so i led the first half and i handed it off to gotlieb um you'll see that this is the very very early beginning of this kind of the slow shift toward a vision design of the idea of me doing the first part of the design you'll see me do more of this as we get move forward um dragon maze i was on the

design team for uh by the way there are a lot of Dragon Maze, I was on the design team for. By the way, there were a lot of core sets that I was on. I didn't mention a lot, but I definitely did a bunch of core sets, development of core sets, 7th, 8th, and different things like that. Then we get to Theros. So Theros, I led the design for Theros. Originally, it was going to be a completely different block. It was supposed to be originally this

start in prehistoric times, and every set in the block jumps forward thousands of years, so that the last set was whatever the most futuristic we do, but yet still be magic. But anyway, it needed too much. It required the creative team to build three worlds,

and at the time, they didn't have the resources to do that. So at the last minute, we changed it to do Greek mythology. We've been talking about doing Greek mythology forever. In fact, Champions of Kamigawa had almost been Egyptian. But we had

talked about doing Greek mythology forever, so it was an easy thing to go into. So now we get to the point where I'm on almost all of the design teams. I'm not leaving. I'm leaving most of the fall ones, but not the other ones. So Born of the Gods I was on, Journey to Nyx I was on. Oh, so one of the interesting things that happens is I'm writing my articles all this time, not making magic.

Obviously, it's going strong. This is when I introduce... I read my article about our change to the two-block paradigm. So, I... During Shards of Alara, we introduced Mythic Rares. I wrote an article about Mythic Rares.

As magic changes sort of its structure, I read articles talking about that. Metamorphosis 1.0 came out. Conjurer of Tarkir, I lived the design for that. Had a very unique sort of block structure again. Large, small, large, where the small set drafted with both the large sets, but the large sets weren't played together.

So we came up with this whole time travel theme in alternate reality. So 2015, Fate Reforged, I was on the design team for. Dragon's Tarkir, I was on the design team for. Magic Origins, I was not on the team for that,

but I did work a lot with Sean of helping structure it with him. Then Battle for Zendikar. I let that. We start to see the story once again changes, and this is the rise of the Gatewatch, where he starts hearing the Gatewatch stories. Okay, we get to Oath of the Gatewatch.

I was on the design team for that. Shadows of Innistrad actually was the first large set in a while that I had not led the design for, but that was led by Mark Gottlieb, I believe, led the design for that. Shadows of Innistrad, Eldritch Moon, I was on for

a lot of those. Kaladesh. Okay, so Kaladesh, which was the end of that year, you start seeing me taking the thing I'd done with Gatewatch, where I start doing the first half and handing off the second half. And that is, you can start seeing the transition to vision design here, because I'm doing more of the early part of it. So Kaladesh, I did the first half and handed it off to Sean Main.

Then Amonkhet, I handed it off and did it to Ethan Fleischer. Ethan Revolt, by the way, interesting little tidbit. This was the changeover between the old system, or the 2-in-1 system and the new system of 3-in-1. So I was not on... Ethan Revolt was the design and the development led by Ben Hay. So I was not on... Aether Revolt was... The design and the development were led by Ben Hayes.

I was not on that team. I think Aether Revolt, up until the D&D set that's coming, is the last set that I hadn't been... last premiere set that I hadn't been on the design team at all for, the vision design or anything. So we get to Amonkhet.

I led the first half, handed off to Ethan Fleischer. Hour of Devastation was interesting where I was on the team hal or anything. So we get to Amiket. I led the first half, handed it off to Ethan Fleischer. Hour of Devastation was interesting where I was on the team halftime. I think the vision design team met twice a week and I was on half of it just because there was a lot going on. Ixalan, large set in which I did the first half

and handed it off to Ken Nagel. Also, we then announced we were changing over again to the new system, the 3-in-1 system. So I wrote my Metamorphosis 2.0 article. The end of 2017, Unstable came out. So I didn't mention in 2006. So 1998, Unglute came out.

I didn't mention this timeline didn't have Unhinge. In 2006, Unhinge came out. And then it took me from 2006 to 2017, so 13 years to get the third unset. And I worked on this table for seven years. We, in fact, made it before we knew for sure that it was even greenlit, and then later got it made. After that point, we start getting into vision design. And so we start talking vision design. So I led mostly early vision design. So I led the vision design for Dominaria.

I led the vision design for Guilds of Ravnica and Ravnica Allegiance. By the way, those were designed as if they were one block because it was under the old model. By the time we came out, they were always going to be two large sets, just we needed that to make guild, to make gills work. But we designed

the first set, well, I guess it was vision design, but it was under the, it was vision design in which we were under the two-in-one model. And then we shifted, so Dominaria was the first vision design that I did. And Gills of Raptor and Raptor of the Allegiance were designed

under the old two-in-one system, the 2-in-2 system. And then was War of the Spark. So that originally was going to be have a large set and a small set. We got rid of the small set. Doug Byer came up with this really amazing idea of this major war with most of the planeswalkers in it. And at the time,

like, sets had maybe three planeswalkers in it. So I had to figure out, like, how do you have a war with most of the planeswalkers in existence when the set only gets three planeswalkers in it. So I had to figure out, like, how do you have a war with most of the planeswalkers in existence when the set only gets three planeswalkers? And so we had to solve that problem. But I led the vision for that. Throne of Eldraine was the fairytale set that I'd been wanting to make forever, ever since we'd made Lorwyn.

And finally, finally, finally, I finally got that out. I led the vision for that. Theros Beyond Death is the first set that I, first vision that I did not lead at the beginning of vision design. So I handed that off to Ethan Fleischer. I was on the design team. So with few exceptions,

I'm almost always on the design team by this point. Ikoria, I led the design team for. Originally, Eldraine was going to be two worlds and Theros was going to be in that slot. But we decided that Eldraine would be one world. We audibled at the last possible minute. In fact, I had already started design on the second Eldraine set.

In the middle of Vision, we switched over. Anyway, at the last minute, we pulled forward. We had this idea for Monster Island that was like two years in the future that we pulled forward to do for Ikoria. I also led the design for Zendikar Rising, the vision design. Kaldheim was the second set

that I handed off. Again, I handed it off to Ethan Fleischer. Strixhaven is my baby. I led the design for that. I'm very proud of that. And then Dungeon Dragons was a set that we didn't quite know what it was when we made it. Normally I don't do...

I didn't work on core sets, and that was in the core set slot. It's its own thing. But because of the nature of what it was, I didn't actually work on the design for that. I did not work on the vision at all for that. And then Innistrad, the werewolf set, I was on the design team for that,

and I led the vision zine for Vampires. Ethan led the werewolf one. I led the vampire one. But anyway, during this time, not only did I work on Magic, but there's many other things I worked on. I worked on Duel Masters, which is a product we still make.

I was on the original design team, and I led two small sets. Star Wars trading card game, I was on the original design team with Richard Garfield, who led it. And then I led the first design for the first release. I was on the original Zion team with Richard Garfield, who led it. And then I led the design for the first release. I was on the Zion team for G.I. Joe. I was on the Zion team for a set called Neopets.

The version that got made wasn't the one that I made. We made a really cool design that didn't get used. I made a Dungeon Dragon trading card game that never got published. I made a wrestling game that never got published. I was on the Zion team for Transformers, the Transformers Trend Card game. I was on that. Uh, and then, like, what we were thinking was the board game that I was involved on.

Um, anyway, so over my 25 years, uh, I mean, I didn't even, I was just going through this timeline. So I missed, like, I, uh, I did Vanguard way back when. I did, um, I mean, there's a lot of products that I'm probably missing along the way that I, I worked on. Um, but just to give you some sense of my 25 years, uh, I've done a lot of stuff. I've made a lot of magic. Um, I don't even know. I, I've been on the design team of, I don't know, 60, 70 sets, something like that. Something crazy. I should count at some point. But anyway,

it has definitely been quite a ride. It's been very exciting, and I really enjoyed it, and I could not have... I kind of feel blessed that I've gotten to work 25 years on a game as amazing as Magic, and it has really been... I mean, I'm not done yet or anything, but the first 25 years have been awesome. Just really exciting, and it's kind of and it has really been, I mean, I'm not done yet or anything, but the first 25 years

have been awesome. Just really exciting, and it's kind of, it's really neat to celebrate my 25th anniversary. There's not a lot of people that can say they worked 25 years on the same game. In fact, it is possible that Bill Rose and I might be the only ones in the world. I mean, there might be a few other

people, because there are a few other games that have lasted that long, but it's a handful of people, my guess. I don't think there's probably more than 10 people in the world that have worked for 25 years on the same game. Just because, A, most games don't last 25 years and make new content. So, just being able to do that is hard. And then, staying

with it for 25 years. So, Bill celebrated his 25th anniversary, by the way, at the beginning of October. I think October 4th. He started early in the month. I started later in the month. But anyway, that was my trip through my 25 years. So I hope you guys enjoyed it. But anyway, I see my desk.

So we all know what that means. It means it's the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. So it was great fun sharing with you all my 25 years. And I will see you all next time. Bye-bye.