Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #808: Evan Erwin

Episode Date: February 12, 2021

I interview Evan Erwin, a longtime creator of Magic content.

I'm not pulling out of the driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another drive to work. Coronavirus edition. Okay, I've been doing interviews while I've been at home, and today I have Evan Irwin with us. Someone who's been with Magic for a long, long time, so we're going to talk about his many adventures with Magic. So, hello, Evan. Hello, how are you doing? I'm doing good. Okay, so Evan, I always start my interviews by asking, how did you get into magic? All right, well, for those who may know me, you

may have heard this story a few times, and if you don't, it's cool because I enjoy telling it. I, as many magic players are, min-maxers, right? And we look for ways to game and loopholes in the system, and I found one. I was pretty miserable in school. And I was like, man, school sucks. I wish I could get out earlier. And then they decided to change the entire scheduling of my schooling. Instead of doing seven classes a day, we would do four classes a day, what they call block scheduling.

And that's all cool and all. But we were the interim year going for this many credits needed versus that many credits needed. And suddenly I figured out if I just took summer school, I could skip the entire junior year of high school. And so that's what I did. And I got there. And so I took, you know, history and English and all that, that you needed to, to get your, your credits for it. And I will just, I will never forget it that I had a buddy named Ron and he was like, Hey, or no, actually Rob actually, he said, Hey, come over here and check this thing out. and there was, like, people were on a desk,

the sunlight was coming in, I can still see the light, you know, coming off the cards, and I go over there, and I have no idea what's going on, and they're just playing, or whatever, and the guy is playing a blinking spirit, and he says, you know, and he's, like, attacking with it, or whatever, and the guy tries to kill it, and he said, I'll pick it up and put it in my hand, and I was like, wait, wait, what has happened right there, and he was like, well, you just, you can bring that back to your hand, you know, whenever you want to, you guy tries to kill it and he saw i'll pick it up and put in my hand i was like wait wait what what has happened right there and he was like well you just you can bring that back back to hand you know whenever you want to you'll have to play it again but you know it never dies i'm like it never dies and he was like it never dies oh my god i was like that's the coolest thing i've ever heard of and that is pretty much where it started my buddy said hey

we can go get some cards at his card shop downtown so we did he taught me how to play said, hey, we can go get some cards at this card shop downtown. So we did. He taught me how to play. And I am very, very competitive. And it just, man, it hit that outlet perfect. And I created a whole social circle around it, you know, and really thrived in something that I could do that was kind of nerdy. But, you know, it's a math game at heart. But at the same time, there was a whole culture of kind of kids like me who didn't really fit in. They weren't the cool kids. We didn't go, you know, we weren't at the cool kids. We didn't go, you know, we weren't at the cool parties or nothing. But at FNM,

we could play the sweet decks and have fun trading and stuff. Okay, so this is back in 96, right? Because this is Ice Age. 96, yeah. This is Ice Age. Okay. So, or actually, Ice Age came out in 95, didn't it?

It did. But Ice Age was like the first set I kind of interacted with. Oh, okay. But you started in 96. Yeah, 96. And this is where Homelands was out and Fallen Empires was out,

and then Alliances came out, which kind of, like, changed everything. Okay, so you played. In your first stint, how long did you play? For my first stint, from about Ice Age all the way through Tempest, essentially the release of Tempest, and it wasn't even so much that, you know, I didn't like Magic or I was tired or whatever. It's just, you know, it's like some

friends that stopped playing. I had gotten like a real job and suddenly my real job didn't let me go to the tournaments I was going to every week for the past few years. And, you know, I like to compete. And so playing casual Magic didn't appeal to me. So I then sold my collection that today would buy me multiple cars. But now I was just, you know, cashing out for a couple hundred bucks and kind of went on my way. Okay. So when did Magic draw you back in? Oh, yes. Magic drew me back in in the question mark of what's going on with Magic?

What happened? That's weird. I used to play it all the time. I wonder if that's still going on. And that was the day I went to the website. And that was literally the day that Cranial Plating was being previewed. This was obviously, of course, Darksteel. dark steel and i was like oh what's that and then i you know i slowly learned what the affinity deck was and what the affinity deck is doing to magic which was also kind of fascinating at the time um not not great stuff

but i'm also the guy who while i recognize the tier one deck i always play the the deck that beats the tier one deck so i was always the guy playing white weenie, trying damping matrix to just get them. And I could never get them because that deck is ridiculous. That was me. I'm laughing because you're the one person that affinity brought into the game. I know, right? Isn't it crazy?

Like I stayed for that. I stuck around. And then I realized, you know, at the time that there was a whole, there was a whole world of content, you know, back in the before times and the ice Ice Age and whatever when I was playing, there was hardly news groups, which I didn't even know existed. And so the ability to read articles and have people give this insight

and all that stuff was brand new to me. It was exciting to me. So one of the big, I mean, you've done a lot of things, but probably the thing you're most known for is the magic show. Yes. Right? So it's around this time, right? So what prompted you to make the magic show?

What prompted you to start that? I feel like I have a good read on trends. I can see stuff coming. I can see stuff coming down the pike. When stuff is important. When stuff that you should be aware of. And when YouTube came out, I was like, this is the future. I don't know how, and I don't know why, but I know that I want to start making videos because I also wanted to get my voice out there with content. I was writing articles already and I was, you know, I was doing

okay with those, but I felt like it was sort of the next level of content. And I still have the emails that I emailed the editor at the time. And I said, hey, you know, what if I were to video myself playing a draft? And then we post that as an article. And he laughed at me and said, no one's going to sit around and watch you draft. That's going to take forever. What are you talking about? And I'm like, okay. So I wrote a script. And so because I wrote a script, I wanted to animate something so I can make silly jokes. And one thing kind of led to another. And before you know it, I'm winning a popularity contest and I'm off to Valencia. Well, let's talk about that a little bit, about Valencia.

How did that all come about? Oh, goodness. This was the 2007 Invitational. There was a storyteller category. Gerard Fabiano was the pro pick. Let's put it that way. And I was not. And so suddenly it was all the pros won Gerard Fabiano was the pro pick, let's put it that way, and I was not. And so suddenly, it was all the pros won Gerard, and then it was dinky old me with my silly invitational video, which I actually went back and checked out in preparation, and man, it is a big ball of silly

that I was doing back in 2007 or whatever in August. But I. But, uh, but you know, I won the vote and before you know it, I'm playing at the pro tour. Oops. The pro tour got flooded. We can't have a day one. Everything goes under. We got to somehow smoosh two days, three days where the competition in the two days, um, I went like two and 10 or something. It was ridiculous. Um, but I had a great time. And that was the first time when I really got to meet Wizards R&D, and I got to sort of see people. I got to talk to Randy

Bue. I got to talk to all these awesome developers that I only heard about, only read about, and got some of that sort of insight into Magic that I'd never gotten before. So did we meet at the Invitational, or had we met before that? I believe it was the Invitational was where we met. that i believe it was the invitation was where i met um one of the one i think my very first facebook photo is us in the the hotel lobby time is sitting around me you and uh forsyth yeah just talking about stuff was i was probably gushing over uh gi joe at the time because that's what i enjoyed yeah so so uh okay so the invitation you got invited to was in Essen, right? Yes. So in Germany, there's a giant, like, I think it's the biggest game convention in the world, I believe. Yes.

And anyway, I'd always wanted to go to Essen, and finally we worked it out so this invitation would be at Essen. And so it's in Germany. So I was very excited. So that's where we met for the first time. You and I had communicated before that, but that first time we met in person? Yes, I think so. That was the first time we actually met in person.

And then that was, you know, awesome because I got to talk to you, of course, to meet you and sort of get those insights as to, you know, what's going on in magic. And it's always fascinating to talk to anybody from Wizards, honestly, to see how the sausage is made and whatnot, because I love that stuff. Okay, so, I mean, I think you've really, I mean, kind of your career is moving around from company to company that

has something to do with magic. From 2010 onwards, yeah. I mean, you've worked at a bunch of different places, and you know, and then always as a part of that, you've done your, you know, magic show and other sort of outreach stuff. You've written articles and things. So one of the things that's interesting is like,

there are a lot of different kinds of sort of magic celebrities, if you will, but you were very much like a content celebrity, right? You were someone who sort of, you were an outsider. I mean, you've never worked at Wizards or anything. You were always someone who was giving an outside, but a perspective um and i've always i've always tried to be that way i've been you know i was earnest before it was cool to be earnest you know what i mean like

everyone was like evan they're paying you evan you can't possibly love magic this much and i'm like no i for real love magic i've always loved it everything about it the community the culture the game itself like it's it's always been great to me. So, let's talk about the evolution of the Magic Show a little bit. I'm sort of curious, like, because when you started, I mean, there wasn't much, I mean, there wasn't a lot of video content about Magic, you know? It was basically zero. Yeah, I'm saying,

I think if you was being, I mean, maybe technically there was someone who beat you, but I mean, when I think of kind of, like, early Magic video content, I think of the Magic Show. That, to mean, when I think of kind of like early magic video content, I think of the magic show. That to me, like it's the earliest I can remember. And that's great. And me too.

I mean, I would happily give props to anybody who was before me. I would want to know because, you know, back then you go back and like they're in like 240p or 360p or whatever crazy low resolution it is. And I remember, you know, multiple steps along the way, getting nicer cameras and stuff like that. But it really, it kind of started like once, once I went to the Invitational, like everything just like sped up hugely. That's when I started to have relationships with these pro players. I started to get to know them. I started to get to know, you know, people like yourself where I get this sort of rapport and people kind of get comfortable with me and be

able to interviews, you know, have interviews with me and know that i'm not going to like make fun of them or put them in some weird light or whatever um and and building on that trust just just went on and on with the uh with the ability for me to go to all these different places and my god i'm in a couple years i was flying around the world which was amazing and uh and i had a fantastic time yeah one of my favorite memories with you see well see like is is the dinner we had in Japan. Where was it? It was in, it was one of the worlds in Japan.

Yeah, it was Chiba. I don't remember exactly where, though. Yeah. But anyway, it's just one of my favorite magic memories. You and I had dinner, like, it was just you and I in the middle of China,

not China, in the middle of Japan, and we went, like, at some point, I think we went flannel shopping because I needed some flannels. I remember we were shopping and we were past that. We were like 10 minutes past when they were supposed to close,

but they didn't want to come over and tell us, but you could see them just kind of waiting over there. The instant we stepped out of the door, they slammed it behind us and locked it. It was silly. I went to the Invitational, then I went to Hollywood, which was amazing. Pro Tour Hollywood. Charles Gendy. Yeah. Pro Tour Hollywood. Yeah, Pro Tour Hollywood, which was great. I got to go to the Nationals events,

which was incredible. I got to start meeting people like Brad Nelson, of course, who's awesome. Gavin Verhey. I got to meet him on that kind of circuit and whatnot, which led on onward later to like the Magic Cruise. I got to meet him on that kind of circuit and whatnot, which led on onward later to to like the Magic Cruise. I got to go back. And so a lot of what I did before we had this interview was to go back. You know, hey, I have a terrible memory. Let's go look and see what I've done. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I was in a lot of places. And 2009 specifically between the Magic Cruise, Honolulu in June and Worlds in November. Like that was that was a great year.

Not going to lie. Yeah, it's funny. The cruise, I got asked to go on the cruise, but my kids were young and I didn't want to take them out of school. So I passed on the cruise and I was like, why did I go on a cruise? I shouldn't have gone on the cruise. It was so much fun. Yeah, I heard such great things about it. Aaron went.

Aaron and his family actually ended up going. But I look back, I'm like, I should have taken my kids out of school and just gone on the cruise. But it was a lot of fun, you know? And they tried to do those for a couple of years. I think I only did the first one. But yeah, it was great. So were you playing or you were covering them, right?

I was covering. There was about a year, year and a half or so, where I actually was contracted by Wizards to do coverage. And so I would make, I would essentially make the magic show. show and then on the side I would make some stuff that Wizards was wanting you know certain interviews or certain things done in different languages and stuff like that um but so there for about a year you know Wizards was helping me see the planet and that was incredible and so uh that was a great run and that was basically 2009 2010 all the way through pro tour Amsterdam we're all the way through uh Chiba actually so one of the things I what what I mean you've been when magic show started back what in 2000 2006 okay so you've been 50 it'll be 15 years this year yes um so

what did you what did you learn along the way? Like what kind of like what are the lessons? What are the lessons of making video content for Magic? Goodness gracious. It's hard to know where to start because, you know, these days the streaming world, streaming has kind of turned everything upside down in many ways. And in some ways good and not always bad. But, you know, I would definitely say that if you're going to ever run a Kickstarter, only give away one thing. Don't make it complicated.

Don't make it weird. If you're trying to crowdfund anything, you know, try to keep it super simple. I ran into a lot of problems with that. Yeah, I mean, honestly, you generally make the content you want to see in the world. If you go back and you watch any of those old Magic shows, it was because no one else was saying the things I was saying at the time. No one else was making fun of these cards that I was making fun of. No one else was giving these insights that I thought I had. And I felt like a lot of what I was presenting was sort of the standard Magic player, the average, or at least average Spike Timmy person, because that's what I am. magic player, the average, or at least average Spike Timmy person, because that's what I am, you know, and sort of be able to communicate how much I love magic, how much I, you know, things I didn't like about it, and things I want to change, and the things we can improve,

but for those who are just making it, again, the more that you are, the more that you are passionate about whatever you're, is you're making, the better it's going to be, and you're going to have mistakes, Lord knows, all I ever see when I go back to the old content and see mistakes that I made. But you're going to get better and everyone starts somewhere. You know, you got to, you got to do something if you want to get good at it. So. The other thing that I really think when I think about the, like the impact that you had sort of on magic content creation was really communicating the idea that, look, this is a script. Like you made scripts.

It was preplanned. It wasn't, I think a lot of people think of like, oh, you just get on camera and do something. But like the reality is there's a lot of preparation that goes in. And especially with magic show, like it was completely scripted out. It wasn't like you were just saying stuff off the top of your head.

It was very carefully planned. And I, I think that you presenting that sort of made people realize that like, oh, I can make this as content in a more structured way, I think really helped people. Sure, and in many ways, it was a really good thing that my editor told me not to just film myself drafting

or whatever back in the day. It was, hey, write a script. That way I can put my ideas together. I can write the jokes and I can prepare for the jokes. You know, I can record the audio and edit the audio the way I want it. And then I can make the jokes pop the way I, you know, I can animate them and have fun that way. So it was good. Okay, so let's talk about, we glossed over one real quickly, but I want to go into, there's two tournaments you played in that I want to talk about.

One is the Invitational and the other is the Community Cup. Yes. that I want to talk about. One is The Invitational, and the other is The Community Cup. Yes. Okay, so we talked about, so the way you got to The Invitational was there was a slot that the audience voted on

for a storyteller, and everyone had to make a video, and you got in. But what was it like playing in The Invitational? What was that like, the actual? Oh my God, it was absolutely incredible. I mean, these were like, you know, these monoliths of personalities,

of, you know, resumes, and, you know, they were royal Brothers, and there's Kenji. And I mean, it was nuts. This was like the all-star team that I've done nothing but read about and make videos about, and then all of a sudden I get to play with them. And my favorite memory from that event was I had to borrow the Power 9 to play my deck in vintage because vintage is one of the formats and i got to stay with steven benendian who was teaching me how to play this

crazy storm deck at the time play a big storm deck and then you drain them when they're dead and so uh every time we would sit there and i'd like draw and i play the stuff and then he'd say oh you got the nuts and i'm like i do and he's like yeah because this and this and this i'm like okay cool and then he's like all right game two and so we scoop him up and we play again he's like oh you got the nuts and i'm like i sure do we scoop him up we play game three and so there i was against olivier roel and i sit there and i'm like like oh man i got the nuts and he's like he's like yeah and i said um okay and so olivier was like well then kill me and i was like i think it was something to the antwarner well but regardless he was like well then kill me i was like oh god but it was somebody in the Antwinter world, but regardless, he was like, well, then kill me. And I was like, oh, God, Menendee never taught me how to kill.

He just kept saying I had the nuts. I was like, all right, they're supposed to scoop, but they didn't. And I lost. Yeah, that was fun. And the second part was the the morning after I posted the video and I go down to the Essen booth and it's completely deserted. And I'm like, oh, my God, where did everybody go? And everybody was in this little like booth that they had given you to keep your stuff in. And everyone was crowded around the laptop watching the magic show that I just posted that morning. And, uh, that was a great feeling too. So, yeah, that is, uh, that was a fun show.

Anyway, it was super fun. The whole thing was great. Okay, so let's talk about the Community Cup. So what is the Community Cup, and how did you get there? Oh, boy. Well, the Community Cup was a... Well, it was an event that had a lot of community members involved in it, and you go to Wizards, and you were playing different events and stuff and have some fun with that. Getting involved...

I want to say, was I invited at the time? I can't remember exactly the the process to getting to the community cup if you if you haven't please let me know um we invited people i mean wizards invited people we just yeah i recall just like i got an email i was like this sounds fantastic let's go um and so yeah we would go there we had a whole sort of day of festivities and they took us on the tour around seattle and you can see a bunch of stuff from that and the episode that i made from it. But yeah, going over to go see where Starbucks began

was super cool, as well as being able to tour the Wizards offices themselves. Go into the pit, which like no one gets to go into. That was sweet. Yeah, we don't do the tours anymore. So it's... But yeah, was the pit exciting?

What was your thought seeing Wizards? Like what was, okay, I went inside some Wizards. What was your actual thought of? It was a really cool place to work. I mean, it felt like, you know, that it was a really fun sort of vibe. There was all this artwork all over the walls and stuff and everything was like, you know,

super duper clean and great. And ultimately just felt like people were excited to be there. It had a very fun vibe, as it were. Okay, so let's keep chugging along here. I'm trying to go in chronological order. So in 2011, so the Innistrad Complete Set Review. Is that the first time you ever did a set review? That's correct.

That's the first time I ever did a complete, literally talked about every card in the set. And as far as I know, no one had done that at that point. I love being the first one to do things, by the way. So let's talk a little bit about that. Like, one of the cool things about this is not only on some level were you the first person to do some of this stuff, but also making the innovation. So, like, how did you come up with the idea of doing the set review? How did that happen?

It was just one of those things where, you know, Magic is very cyclical, right? You know, every three months we're back there for the big standard set anyway. And you know, we, everyone was writing their set reviews in their own way and limited reviews and constructive reviews. I'm like, what, why don't we just talk about everything? And then it's like, we have this whole studio that we had built at star city games. And it was like, we can turn the camera on and just go.

And like Jerry lived there. So Jerry could come and hang out. So it was me and Jerry, uh, can turn the camera on and just go and like jerry lived there so jerry could come and hang out so it was me and jerry uh and i might have been todd anderson or he was in part of it uh where we just got to talk about every single card ever and when we uh when i did that a few times i did it once and then i think it was either shadow or it wasn't um uh after innistrad there was uh i know abison restored what's the one in the middle? Dark something? Oh, Dark Ascension. Dark Ascension, thank you. There was Dark Ascension and then I think Abyssin Restored was the first one I did with

Brad. And me and Brad, there's just something magical, if you will, about getting me and Brad Nelson in a room to talk about Magic cards because he's like me but good at Magic. So it's really awesome to kind of just have us bounce off each other

and have those fun moments. People got to kick out of it. So there's two things that happened. I'm going to go slightly out of order here, but let's talk about doing your last magic show, and then we'll get into Magic Mike's. Sure. So you have, what, 305 shows is what I have written here?

That's the number I have, yes. Okay, so that's a lot of shows. So what was it like sort of ending doing something? Like you had done it for such a long time. Right, and, you know, I've been reading a lot of stuff about, you know, how creators can create anxiety for themselves and how you are competing with yourself so often. And, you know, if this post gets 1,000 likes and your next post doesn't get 1,000 likes, what are you doing wrong, right?

And if I make a video and it didn't get 40,000 views and the next one got 20,000, I'm upset about it or whatever. And I'm constantly trying to re-up myself. I'm constantly trying to be funnier than the last one. I'm constantly trying to do that over and over again. And I kept psyching myself out. that's like kind of where I was at. And I, I, I wish there was a better way to put it. You know what I mean? But like the problem was, I felt like, you know, I was like, okay, I tried it. They didn't really like this one. I tried it. They don't even like this one. And so then I gave it some time and I tried to come back

for another one. And I was like, I just, I can't, the audience isn't responding the way they used to and stuff. And it just felt really frustrating. And there wasn't really like, I just I can't. The audience isn't responding the way they used to and stuff. And it just felt really frustrating. And there wasn't really like, you know, this is the end. I'm never going to do this one again. It was like I just kind of stopped making them because I didn't have as much fun doing it anymore. It's hard to sort of say it that way. But, you know, as time had gone on, you know, you've got to be careful when you take the hobby to the job. Right. Because sometimes the hobby can the job, right? Because sometimes the hobby can get to be too much of a job. So, um, I, I really enjoyed making the magic show and I'm not saying I want to make any sort of scripted content like that again, but it was,

it was time for me to stop right then and do something different. Okay. Well, speaking of something different, so let's talk about Magic Mike. So how did that come about? How did that? Well, I felt like that at the time, and this was 2015, I felt like at the time that there wasn't any real kind of news program for Magic. The Newsening was a program that I produced with Ruben Bressler at Star City Games that was supposed to be kind of like the daily show for Magic, but it got to be too cumbersome to write a whole like episode's worth of jokes just about magic and but i wanted someone i wanted a program that could just kind of give me the essence of magic the zeitgeist as it were because i love

the culture of magic the culture of magic is my number one thing that i enjoy about it and that's why i tried to bring with my shows and my content was check out how cool it is to be here and to hang out and how cool and smart these people are and how we're all having a good time with this competition and whatnot. And so I had a few ideas in my head, and I was like, well, I know Ruben Bressler, and I know Aaron Campbell, and I liked Ruben because I've always liked him. I think Ruben's hilarious. I've done nothing but try to sort of drag Ruben around wherever I go.

I got him hired at Star City. I had him doing magic mics and stuff. He filled in for one of the magic shows back in the day as well. But I think Ruben's hilarious, and I think Erin has a point of view that is all her own. She is unique, you know, to herself. And so I like sort of having that to bounce off of, essentially. And I can kind of be the figurehead, and they'll kind of be around me. And as time has gone on, it's been very popular and it's sustained its popularity this whole time

and it's been pretty successful, all things said. So for the people who have never heard it, what is Magic Mike's? We showed up, sorry. I showed it as an interview. I'm supposed to make sure the audience understands what you're talking about before we get into talking about it.

No worries. Magic Mike's is a three-person news program that is filmed weekly on Wednesday nights at 11 o'clock Eastern. And we talk about what's going on in Magic, just the Magic news, not just sort of, you know, it's not sort of tournament-focused per se. It's more about the culture and the updates that happens to Magic. And we get into, you know, the drama and stuff.

Sometimes there's Twitter drama, and then sometimes people got, you know, DQ'd or whatever. We'll cover that stuff. All the tea gets spilt, as they say. But it's a good time, and we've had a great time over these past years making it. And I always look forward to what Aaron Rubin had to say. Okay, so one last piece I want to get here,

because my desk is not too far away. I can see it in the distance. Let's talk a little bit about SCG Live and the various stuff you've done with doing commentary and stuff. Streaming. Yeah, streaming. Yeah, again, so the streaming stuff was, it kind of came to fruition,

or coming to fruition around 2013, sorry, around what? Was this 2015, was it? That date actually I think is incorrect. I might have that wrong. But anyway, around 2010, 2011, the streaming stuff was happening. And GG's Live, Rashad Miller was doing most of that stuff. And SCG, you know, Star City Games was running their tournament series at the same time.

And what if we were to stream, you know, a magic event? Oh, my gosh, this is crazy. No one's ever done that before. And I'm like, let's do it. So we contracted Rashad to do some events for us. And those went okay. But, you know, it's always better when you're able to kind of go in there and say, hey, would you do it this way? Would you do it that way? And there's only so much room you kind of have with contractors and, you know, being able to create policies and stuff like that. So I convinced them,

convinced Pete at the time who owns Star City. I said, hey, let's hire our own crew. You know, we're doing these events anyway. We know we're doing them. We know this is a good advertising outlet, excuse me, for the for the tournament. And probably didn't understand at the time what an important advertising outlet it would end up becoming, because I believe it's the number one outlet that they have at this point. But but, yeah, it just became something that I hired Jeremy Knoll and then he had a friend of his. And then we started doing more shows, so we had to hire more directors. And then we built a whole studio at Star City Games to film original content in, which is kind of where the set review started showing up as well.

So it all kind of steamrolled into creating something that, I meanric Phillips and Patrick Sullivan, which are like the dream team of pairings because they get along so well with each other. So it wasn't just, you know, there was a point which, you know, they didn't, a lot of people don't understand that the commentary also needs to be about these people getting along with each other and not just did they tap that for mana, did shuffle after whatever you know it's about can you keep the banter going and um and they just they did it better than anyone else did but i also got a chance to work with a ton of people along the way and this is where you have you know gavin bear hayes in there reuben brussels in there chapin's in there uh and you have some amazing moments as a result yeah it's a lot of uh one of the things i don't think people realize uh is how much you did sort of just behind the scenes of organizing creating things and getting things put together um and it's interesting i mean i i've someone who's known you for a long time just watching you do

different things in different places um work i mean what's my what's my account of people who were my employee who are who now work at Wizards? Very high. There's multiple people at this point at Wizards who have worked under me at one point or another. And they're all fantastic, so I'm happy for them. So I just want to ask, the one last thing we didn't talk about real quickly is Forgotten Lore. Sure. So how long did you write that? Forgotten Lore I did for about three years or so.

And that was another one where I kind of was psyching myself out and I really hate, like, I kind of hate to say that because it feels so defeating, but you know, at the same time, I felt like if, if I can't feel like I can do one thing, I'll just focus on Mane Results Horror, which is where Magic Mice came from. Uh, but Forgotten Lore was a history program that I did because I didn't think there were a lot of, you know, history programs for Magic and the history programs I found for magic, I wasn't happy about. So I wanted to make the content I wanted to see in the world, which I did. And it's cool to hear someone like Rhystic Studies, like Sam, say,

hey, I was really inspired by your Forgotten Lore work. And that's where some of his work was inspired from. And that's very humbling. I really appreciate that. Yeah, and one of the things that, I mean, I like to think this podcast is, I mean, at times, a history podcast., I mean, at times a history podcast. I do a lot of delving back into times. A lot of my interviews have been, I've been interviewing people from long ago.

So hopefully, I mean, I too am a big magic historian and fan of magic history. So we are, I'm almost to my desk here. So is there any final thing before we wrap up here? Any thoughts on your many, many years making magic content? My many, many, many, many, many years. It has been an absolute privilege. And I want to note for anyone who happens to be out there and making content, one thing I've never, ever done and I never, ever will do is never, ever attack any person at Wizards.

Wizards is a very large company with hundreds of people. Tons of them have talked about me who I've never met in my life, I'm sure. And there's nothing wrong with that, and that's okay. But, like, I will criticize Wizards, and I hope Wizards does better. And I think you, Mark Rosar, are a fantastic person who I super appreciate. I think you're great, and you're awesome. And please continue to kill magic, because you're doing a great job. Well, we got a lot of fun.

In fact, one of the things I'm most proud of is coming up very soon. Shrixhaven is a set that I'm super, super proud of. I hope you lean into it

big time. I hope it's all the things that you're doing. Oh, I'm... Anyway, let's get Colton out the door. But anyway, I'm...

It's a set I'm just... I mean, I was very involved in it. All sorts of stuff coming out this year is awesome too, but it's just a set I'm personally most excited about. I'm, uh, it's just that I'm just, I mean, I was very involved in it. All sorts of stuff coming out this year is awesome, too. But it's just that I'm personally most excited about it. I'm excited. But anyway, so I can see my desk here. I've made it to my desk.

So we all know what that means. It means it's the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. So thank you, Evan, for being with us. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And guys, I will see you next week. Bye-bye.