Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #881: Strixhaven with Yoni Skolnik

Episode Date: October 29, 2021

I sit down with Designer Yoni Skolnik, and we talk about the design of Strixhaven: School of Mages.

I'm not pulling out of my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another drive to work. Coronavirus edition. So, using my time at home to do interviews, and today I have Yanni, who is the lead designer of Strixhaven. Hey, Yanni. Yanni Skolnick. Hey. Hey, Mark. Thanks for having me on. Okay, so this is interesting. I actually had a podcast with Ari. Okay, so this is interesting. I actually had a podcast with Ari. Ari and me, we were talking about the vision design of this set.

And I had it with Taylor, and we talked about the art design of the set. So you're on to talk about the set design. So the audience, if they really want to get a sense of all the different parts, this one set I've had a lot of different people on. So you can get a lot of facets of what different people are doing. So let's talk a little bit about set design. So I finished this set, I led the vision, and I handed you a file and a document. So let's pick up the story from there. Yeah, so Eric Lauer led the first month of set design as kind of a transition period. of set design as kind of a transition period.

Our biggest focus there was looking at what would be the mechanic that added casting more spells to the game. We decided that flashback, which you handed off, didn't make a lot of sense. We wanted to save it for Innistrad, and we felt like doing it in both sets wasn't something that felt right. So we kind of got right away to looking for a thing to replace Flashback with, which ended up being Learn Lesson.

Okay, how did you get to Learn Lesson? How did you get there? Like what process got you to there? Yeah, I think we just had a meeting or two to kind of brainstorm a lot of ideas. Eric and I both kind of separately pitched something in the space of LearnLesson, and then we reconciled our ideas. I know Eric had been inspired partially by the,

we considered using a similar mechanic in Kaladesh, which you may have talked about before. Called Inventions, it was Inventions, was the name of the mechanic. Getting artifacts out of your sideboard. And it seemed to make a lot of sense, for instance, in sorceries. Instance sorceries have a lot of narrow effects that make sense living in the sideboard. And also it was a good way to justify spells making tokens to have them act as creatures.

And so when we got to putting it all together, it just pretty quickly made a lot of sense and felt like something that Eric, after having looked at the artifact version in Kaladesh, felt we could execute on pretty well. So how long do you think it took from removing, taking out flashback to adding in Lethal Learns? How long did that process take?

Probably only a couple weeks. It was basically the first major thing we tried. And after our first playtest, we had enough confidence in it that we decided to plan for it to be the thing. Okay, so it was pretty quick. Yeah. Within that one month that Eric led the team before handing it off to me to lead. Okay.

So the one other thing you added was the idea of the Mystic Archive, that that was added. When did that happen? That happened later in design. We, maybe around the halfway point of set design. We just had some concerns in the company that Strixhaven wasn't really showing people why it was a plane worth caring about. We had this idea that it was the most prestigious school for magic in the universe, in the multiverse.

But nothing to really show that as concrete proof to our players. So I think we got to the idea of doing this kind of bonus sheet, as we kind of call it, of extra cards from another set that was considering doing it, but then ended up thinking it didn't make sense. And once again, similar to how

Kaladesh looked at doing Learn Lesson, but with artifacts, their idea for what their kind of mystical archive would be was a lot more problematic because it had a lot of permanence. But then us doing it with Instants and Sorceries, we kind of immediately realized how to make the gameplay aspect of it work better in draft. Kaladesh did have, I forget what they were called, did have the artifacts from the past,

just at a much, much, much lower rarity than a bonus sheet. Yeah, I was always a big fan of what we did when we called them masterpieces, I believe, in Battle for Zendikar, Kaladesh, and Amonkhet. I think the biggest issue the audience had with them is they felt just a bit too rare and not something that you were really going to encounter unless you were opening boxes upon boxes.

And so with what we did in Strixhaven, we really wanted to make something that showed up every single time. And, you know, there was a lot of work to look at different drop methods and different methods of distribution, especially since we had already kind of figured out what we wanted to look limited to look like, and we were halfway through the process. We wanted to find something that

wouldn't totally upend the format and would allow still a lot of focus to be on the stuff that was going in in Strixhaven. And we found this method of having all the uncommons, which you get two-thirds of the time, be cards from Standard that people would already be familiar with and would have lower impact in limited games than all these iconic rare and mythic cards we wanted to bring back from throughout Magic's history. So I want to tackle that. history so let's i want to tackle that uh one of the big challenges i think like one of the things about vision design is i come up with a really grand idea and then i give it up something to actually make it work right that um and so one of the really big challenges i think of this set was

making instance and sorceries matter in a big way. It's something we've talked about forever, but it was a really big challenge. So let's talk a little bit about, like, I mean, the visions I gave you some tools and some tools you had to build on your own, but what was it like to make that work? Yeah, I think that, you know, we got in the handoff, we kind of decided to keep that Magecraft

was the main thing that was compelling you to put these extra Instants and Sorceries in your deck. We liked that each school would have its own reasons for caring more or less about Instants and Sorceries and what their own Magecraft effects would have. The most challenging part of getting it to work was that Magecraft, as an ability, just adds a ton of complexity, being triggers on the board that can happen multiple times in a turn or at instant speed on your opponent's turn. Your opponent is always aware it's something that could happen. And so designing a set around those abilities meant we had to be very careful with what other cards did that were complex and on the board. I think a lot of our reasoning for iterating on schools in various ways

was making sure we were giving them ways to express their mechanics and their school identities in ways that weren't adding too much complexity on top of the magecraft and tons of instance and sorceries environment. So what is a concern that as someone who has to build the set, that maybe the average player doesn't even think about, but what problems does Kareem

have with instance and sorceries? What do you have to solve? Let's see. I'll say as an example of what I was just talking about. For example, for Wibberbloom, we got pretty quickly to, we love, it's about life gain. One of our favorite ways to care about life gain

is to trigger whenever you gain life, but that had a lot of similarities to Magecraft. So we had to look for abilities in Wibberbloom that care about life gain, but aren't adding a bunch of triggers to the board. We got to cards like Brackish Trudge, which if you gained life that turn, you can return from your artifact. Or Vianna Troll, which increases how much life you gain

and cares about you having a high life total. Other issues with instants and sorceries. Well, every color just had one or two more instants and sorceries than it normally normally gets so there was just a higher quantity of them and that meant we just had to reach further for more design space that instance and sorceries could use um it did help that we have the learn mechanic which you can take something that's you know a very small effect add learn to it like you would add cantrip to something and now it's a very useful card like our white card that gives a single plus one plus

one counter usually that has a very low impact in your deck and isn't you know maybe you have one or two slots for a combat trick like that but making it a learn card means it now kind of counts as a creature and because you can get the summoning sorceries um and you can you're able to print a lot more of those niche effects because they have that extra utility yeah it's interesting the as you brought up the as fan so as fan for those ideas this term all the time but for those that don't happen to know the term stands for as fanned it talks about what percentage of something when you open up a booster pack how often does a sub a theme show up um and one of the biggest problems instant sorceries provide you is right the as fans a little low on something that you want to care about um and so part of the

challenge is how do we get more on the set part of it is making more instant sorceries um part of it is right recurring them or finding ways to reuse them like one of the reasons that Flashback was something I was interested in is it allowed you for one card to get two spells and Lesson Learned can do some of that as well

a lot of times the Lesson Learned themselves are spells and then they get you spells and so Lesson Learned filled a similar void yeah finding instants and sorceries that could replace effects from traditionally other card type was really important. The biggest example of that is finding reasons for instants and sorceries to make tokens. So, the biggest aspect of that was just having every school have their own iconic token, which it made sense for them to make. token which it made sense for them to make part of what we also liked about quandrix was because they're the quandrix fractals being variable is that um it helped justify putting those on instance

and sorceries a lot you know a sorcery that just makes a single token just kind of asks you why shouldn't this be a creature um so making them lessons uh that you get from the sideboard may help justify that. But also the Quandrix cards, like I was saying, it counts how many lands you have and then makes a token of that size. Well, you already need to track something unusual with this card, so it's a lot more normal for it to be a token than just a creature. Another example of that is we have a lot more plus-one-plus-one counters,

which worked well with us getting to Silver quill needing to be more about combat so they get cards that give plus one plus one counters instead of auras or equipment that buff your creatures um and then the way we got to having colorless sorceries which ended up all being lessons, was actually from asking the question of why, you know, in Ravnica we have signets or lockets that are artifacts that fix your mana. Can we make those sorceries? And that got us to kind of an early version of environmental sciences, which ended up being one of the most important lessons in the format. Okay, so another...

I'm just jumping around here. If you have more to say on any topic, let me know. I'm just jumping around and talking about interesting things. So another challenge for you. This was all on me giving you this one. Originally, Fencing was the only...

Fencing was the codename for Strixhaven. Originally, Strixhaven was the only set that was going to have the modal double-faced cards. And the idea originally was, oh, this is one of the techniques to get spells in your deck because they can be permanent on one side and a spell on the other. And then we broke them out.

We ended up making a year-long thing. We did lands in the first set and the gods in the second set. But you were kind of obligated to do them because we sort of set it up as a year-long thing so i know there's some challenges to this i'll talk a little bit about the the challenges of mdfc's in your set yeah so um uh what the biggest challenge to start was just finding uh you know we wanted a lot of them to be a permanent affront and a sorcery on the back.

And for that, it meant that I felt the sorcery needed to have kind of a higher level of complexity and do more to not, to differentiate itself from other mechanics that are a permanent and a spell, like adventure or channel. So we put a lot of time into trying to make sure that these combinations of permanent and spell were unique and that also kind of carried over to our permanent permanent cards like vadine's um where we had to make where i felt the pressure to make both sides be kind of unique and deep in their gameplay and that ended up with a lot of them being quite overly complicated, which is one of the aspects of a set that I think came out the roughest in the end. Another aspect of a challenge is we really wanted to show kind of opposites with the schools having like a white and a black effect that showed different sides of it. a white and a black effect that showed different sides of it. And usually that was fairly straightforward with just, you know, a white effect and a black effect are pretty opposite.

And if you put them in any white effect and any black effect that are at all similar, they'll look kind of like opposites. So my favorite of those was always one that was, I believe, handed off from design of a white creature that gives your other creatures indestructible and a black destroy all your creatures spell that spares one thing to kind of contrast selflessness and selfishness. But it was pretty challenging to find in many of the designs ways that felt cohesive in the same deck but played out like opposites one of those examples that i'll give is some one i think you handed over of the blue sides a

permanent control magic and the red side is an active trees and a temporary control magic well typically those go in very different decks active Treason is something you want as a finish the game and end it right there. And Control Magic is because you're playing for a longer game and you're trying to steal your opponent's resources and kind of beat them on card advantage. So that's a kind of example of something I was looking to avoid where I wanted to make sure that all those DFCs, both sides felt like opposites, but really made sense in the same deck. So another big challenge of this product was we were trying to sort of revisit a theme we've done, but make it its own. And so clearly Ravnica had established sort of the model of the faction set. And this set was trying to sort of reclaim that a little bit. It was a two-color faction world, but it was very hard trying not to be Ravnica.

What were the challenges of not being Ravnica for you in building the set? Yeah, so we made the decision, you know know kind of the biggest on its face change was not having one mechanic per faction and instead having uh less you know uh spell mechanics be shared across all of them and so um you know one of the big challenges there was making the factions feel cohesive and like all their cards went together and gave you a story about what it did and also a strategy about what it did but not kind of using the same line of text over and over again so much that it felt strange that we weren't um keywording it and making it a mechanic so we ended up with a good deal of lines of text that were repeated kind of three or four times

below that bar for a mechanic to give you a clear strategy in limited and tell you hey if you're building a quandrix deck um there's all these kind of wacky cards that care about numbers but the thing you maybe see the most often is if you control eight or more lands and you can kind of figure out all those eight or more lands go together uh to end up with a cohesive deck uh wherever quandrix cards also fit in really well and hopefully it feels like you're counting to eight and that's something maffy so quandrix by the way uh was the the school that changed the most from what they want vision design handed over to what ended up in the printed set um

i'm curious to talk a little bit about this, because this is definitely something you guys have big impact on. So when we handed over Quandrix, we had modeled it as like a go-wide strategy, like a very Selesnian kind of thing, and fractals in our version, you made a lot

of fractals. It was variable how many fractals you made, but they were all 1-1 creatures. They weren't... And so we handed over to you this go-wide strategy. That is not what happened. So how did it get to where it ended up? Yeah. So Eric and I talked through it and decided that the first big issue was just that the Quandrix were making 1-1s. And Wiverbloom also wanted to make 1-1s,

and we wanted the tokens to be a little more different than that. And then we also felt like somewhere in the set there should be a faction that is making huge creatures. Prismari got up to four 4s, but we felt like having something even bigger was an opportunity that we shouldn't miss. And then a third issue was we wanted another another faction to play in the kind of big mana space next to prismari to go together with them better and to have more cohesion when you're mixing those two

themes and so all that kind of combined for us to decide that it made sense for Quandrix to be the big mana faction with the big creatures and that brought us to okay, they've got these variable sized creatures and we can make all sorts of different effects that tell you how to make them. Okay, another faction, I mean obviously you've stuck close to what Vision Design was envisioning, but I know it was a big challenge, was Lorehold, the red-white. We were trying, like, one of our goals in making these was we were trying to be very not

kind of a low-hanging fruit version that was the Ravnica version. And I think Lorehold is the most divergent from what we traditionally do as Red-White. We made the choice not to be an aggro deck, which is what Red-White most of the time is. What were the challenges with Lorehold? Yeah, so

a big challenge was just figuring out what were the ways they would care about the artifact. Red White has some pretty strict lines in the color pie of how it interacts with the artifact and how it deals with that. The graveyard. And we wanted to, sorry? You said the artifact, but you meant the graveyard.

Yes, I meant the graveyard. Artifacts, a spoiler for something I'll transition to in a moment. Four of a graveyard. And so finding those lines of text was challenging um we we found a few things that i'm very happy with my favorite is the get a card back of you know four different card types instant sorcery artifact uh enchantment since red and white can each do some of those pieces but getting back just one of those cards isn't really enough on its own. But when you combine it all, it makes for kind of a unique package.

And then also leveraging the whatever one or more cards leaves your graveyard text to work with some of the recursive elements that we were aiming at giving Red-White. We didn't want to kind of go all the way to making it a control deck. We felt that was a little bit too big of a departure for Red-White.

So we're always aiming it as kind of a more mid-range attrition deck that has these aggressive spirits and this spirit of tribal strategy to transition to attacking your opponent and ending the game. But if that didn't work out then it had these graveyard recursive methods to kind of make the game go along um

one thing i think that worked out great that i'm happy we did is i you know made sure cory bowen leading commander team knew that he could take um factions in different directions than we did in the main set. So always it was important. It's about history. Graveyard's an aspect of it. But Corey's team also brought in artifacts as a thing for Lorehole to care about, which very much makes sense for the history to kind of give them more of a can-do in Commander where them caring about Graveyard just couldn't really possibly compete with the way other colors care about Graveyard in Commander.

Another good example of that is, I think, with Silverquill, where for Limited, we felt Silverquill needed to be the aggro faction. And it kind of, you know, we tweaked for Vibe to have that make sense and gave them the theme of plus one, plus one counters. But in Commander, that wasn't especially compelling. And they sort of got to a unique point of it being a politics Commander deck where they had all these effects that care about interacting with your opponents and helping pit them against each other. And I felt that was another great way to show a faction off in a different light that totally felt cohesive with the flavor and worked alongside a lot of Picards in the main set, but had a very different core mechanical identity. Yeah, I know. It's interesting for us in vision design, Silverquill is one we struggle the most with. Like we knew we wanted to be the aggro because since red and white wasn't going to be aggro, it made the most sense for black-white to be aggro. But, like, trying to make sense with what Silverquill creatively was, like, it took a lot of time to make all that package come together.

But I was happy with how it sort of, the end result came out when it was all said and done. Okay, so let's, there's two ones we haven't talked about yet, so let's go on to Prismari. So, the challenge with Prismari from our end, which I'll hand it off to you, was we were trying to not be the Ravnica Guild, and the blue-red Ravnica Guild is about spells. So, there's some big challenges there. Yeah.

I think pretty early on in Vision we landed about on they're going to cast big spells. Ravnica, Izzet in Ravnica, had a lot of different spell mechanics, but the way that kind of always played out and constructed was the Wee Dragonauts deck, the Gutter Snipe deck, where you were rewarded, essentially the Magecraft deck, where you were rewarded for casting spells repeatedly

rather than ramping up to big spells. And so Prismari was relatively one of the easier ones to execute on, where we got to, okay, their Magecraft abilities are going to reward you less for repeating them and more for just casting one spell per turn. I think the biggest thing we changed in set design was just adding a little bit of treasure to the equation, which made sense mechanically as a way to rampen the spells and made sense flavorfully as it's the art school. They're making treasures.

Several of the cards have, you know, treasure cycling, quote unquote, where you pay two mana and you discard the card to make a treasure. That adds a very small amount of power to the card, but it helps a lot to smooth out the draws and make it so you can put a higher amount of these cards in your deck, since if you draw, you know, casting your turn seven spell on turn six is actually a very big difference. We got to that starting with the Bithyk Magma Opus, where I just kind of asked my team,

okay, I want to have a big flashy spell for them to cast to aim at Constructed, but we also have these ultimatums in Standard. So how are we going to make this a big expensive spell to cast, but with very different dynamics than the ultimatums? And we got to A, make it an instant, and B, give it this kind of outclaws at a lower mana cost, so that you can put more spots in your deck and it has a second usage. So before we get on to Weatherbloom, you mentioned something that I just want to read from, you and I know this, but the audience might not. When I talk about the Vision Design team,

Yanni was on the Vision Design team, He was part of the vision design team. So it, I mean, while we were handing this off to Yanni, Yanni was there the whole time. You know, different set designers work differently. Yanni, Dave liked being on the set design. Eric likes not to be on the vision design team.

So it varies from set designer to set designer. But I thought, i liked having you there i thought it was very helpful yeah i i love being involved in every part of the process uh i i'm an anxious types of a way i i feel more comfortable in life is just by always checking in and making sure i know what's going on and so it you know felt very good to be there seeing all the stuff and then when when I was making changes in set design, I knew exactly why we had put things there

in the first place for that reason. And that gave me a lot more confidence that I knew the changes I was making were the correct direction to move in. Okay. So our last school to talk about, or college, sorry, college. In Division Design, we called them schools

and we later decided to call them colleges. So, I always forget to call them colleges. Okay, so Witherbloom. That's the one that changed the least. I think Witherbloom was the one that we handed over and, I mean, you guys did a lot of tweaking, but it didn't fundamentally change, I don't think. Yeah.

Yeah, it was pretty clear that it was about life gain, but it also had a bit of a sacrifice element with these pests as part of it. The main struggle was just finding effects that cared about life gain that we felt wasn't adding an excessive amount of complexity to the board. We love a Johnny's Pride Mate, and so we had the common blood researcher doing that, but we didn't want too many things that trigger repeatedly when you're gaining life. And so finding different versions of those was our main focus. Okay, so I can see my desk here. I'll briefly circle back around to Quandrix.

Oh, sure, sure. Yeah, I think one of the criticisms a lot of people have of the set, which is somewhat valid, is that other than Lorehold's set, the factions aren't extremely different than their Ravnica components. They're, you know, moderately different to different extents. But we did want to, you know know we wanted to give a different faction but not necessarily to rewrite the wheel with all five color pairs felt like that'd be a pretty big

challenge um quandrix ended up skewing a bit closer in appearance to um simic by using the plus one plus one counters but we felt that their focus was still kind of on ramping getting to big mana and just going big in general so even though they had that aesthetic of plus one plus one counters we felt um it was sufficiently differentiated from simic and that it might be upside that oh you could play the uh cards that create a lot of plus one plus one counters but then it's up to your simic cards to manipulate or get extra value out of them. And we also felt that, you know, green-blue so often is the color pair of just draw a bunch of cards and get a bunch of mana and go big.

And we were kind of happy to have this actually be the first green-blue faction that was really about that um it's kind of always the unofficial theme of green blue draw a bunch of cards get a bunch of lands go big um and we liked it for simic we were kind of making it official when before it had just been plus one plus one counters weird, wonky stuff. I do want to point out something important that you're mentioning is if we had made a set where we took every of the colleges and just went as weird as we could go, if Lorehold was the base at which all of them worked,

it would be really disorienting. What the audience doesn't really or needs to understand, which is magic wants to always have something be different. We want to change something. But you need a lot of things to be the same. That it's possible for us to make a game of magic using the rules of magic that don't remotely feel like a game of magic.

And our goal is not to be as different as we can be. Our goal is to make a compelling game of magic. And that does require, there's a certain threshold of normalcy that a set needs to have. And while we had fun making lower holds and it's cool that we can do stuff like that, it's kind of like having a cake of all icing. Like, you know, like icing is cool to have on a cake, but you need some cake with your icing.

And that too much icing really detracts if there's not cake there. And I think that's a lot of what the weird stuff can be. if there's not cake there. And I think that's a lot of what the weird stuff can be. Yeah, that said, I do hope that we will one day go back to Strixhaven, and we will be able to get a little bit of extra icing on those other factions. We had a lot of complexity that we were figuring out

between just being an instance and sorcery set, being a set like Ravnica, but different. So we did need to keep complexity low for a lot of the faction based what are they doing what are they building around um but i do think similar to how uh you know the main set and the commander deck showed different sides and different mechanical interpretations of silver quill and lore hold that a future ravna uh strict haven set could have um you, you know, Greenblue will still care about numbers and going big, uh, Quantrix will care about numbers and going

big in some way, but they might have some more unique hooks that, um, we can figure out in the future when a lot of the other structure of a set is already established. Yeah. I mean, the school sets have such strong identities that what math magic means really can, we have some flexibility. Oh, and I want to stress to the audience, Strixhaven did really,

really, really well. So the, the, the chances of returning one day is very, very high. That, that did amazingly well. So any last,

I can see my desk here, Yiannis, I'm almost to work. Any, any final thoughts on Strixhaven? Um, I think I got I got, oh yeah. On learn lesson, a big thing for us to figure out was the out clause with,

or figuring out, you know, how many of each we're going to have. Is it going to be a problem when you get too many learns and not enough lessons, too many lessons and not enough learns? So a big innovation that there was a lot of discussion around was learn having the option of, if you don't put a card, bring in a card from outside the game, you can discard a card to draw a card. I got a lot of pressure saying, oh, is this a little too finicky?

It's so often going to be stronger to bring in a card from outside the game when that's an option. But I kind of, that was my big thing that I felt I had to stick to my guns for, that we needed this out clause in case, you know, you drafted too many learn cards and didn't get enough lessons. And then when we got the testing constructed, we also found it was very important there of sometimes you're just struggling with tempo and you don't have time to cast an extra spell. And what you really need is just more selection in that moment and so it was very very gratifying to see at the world championships that kind of the the most exciting moment uh was when somebody cast when andre strowski cast divide by zero needed to cast another spell that turn that cost one mana discarded card and drew into his Spikefield Hazard

for the big win. So my last thing before we sign off for today, Yanni, I'm not sure the audience knows this, but this was your first, I mean, you had worked on core sets, but this was your first sort of non-core premiere set. And I just want to say

I was super, super happy. There was a set I was very personally attached to. I really felt really strongly about it, and I just want to say, I was super, super happy. Like I, um, there was a set I was very personally attached to. I really felt really strongly about it. And, um, I love how it turned out. So I'm really happy with all the work you and your team did. And, uh, I got, Strixhaven's one of the sets I'm proudest of having worked on. So thank you for all your hard work. I'll, I'll, since you threw me a compliment, I'll throw you one.

Uh, you know, people know you're a great designer, but the thing that I sometimes manage to forget is how amazing of a world builder you are. And on Strixhaven, like, the idea of it's a magic school, but they're actually learning life skills like math and history. It really is kind of a unique thing you brought to the table. And I'm just so impressed that you know people had speculated oh is strict saving going to be just like every other book i've ever read about a magic school and it's really not it's such a unique world and it ended up there

because you had this kind of thing that both gave it such an interesting creative bent and a great um mechanical grounding of we get to do math magic and we get to do history magic. So thanks for that. It's one of my pet peeves of like all that kind of, it's like, why don't they ever study math? Like they're always studying potions and things like, don't they have to know math and reading and writing?

It's like, you know, but anyway, so thank you so much, Yanni, for joining us today. This was a lot of fun. I,

I obviously, I love talking about strict saving. This is the third interview I've done it. So if you haven't listened, by the way, to me and Ari talking about vision design or me and Taylor talking about the art direction, it's a great compliment to me and Yanni talking about the set design.

So please give those a listen. And thank you so much for joining us, Yanni. But I can see my desk. So we all know what that means. This is the end of Drive to Work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. Thanks, Yanni.

And all of you, I will see you next time. Bye-bye.