Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #899: Templating with Matt Tabak

Episode Date: January 22, 2022

I sit down with Editor Matt Tabak to talk about the importance of templating.

I'm not pulling out of the driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another Drive to Work Coronavirus Edition. So, using my time at home to interview people past and present, and today's interesting. Today, I had a topic I wanted to do, which was on templating, and I realized I needed an expert to come join me, because templating is far from something I'm good at. So, Matt Tabak, Editor-in-Chief of Editor extraordinaire, is joining us. Hey, Mark.

Okay, so first off, let's define, what is templating? So we talked about templating. What do we mean by templating? So templating is basically the process where we take what a magic card does, its function, and we translate that into the words that we put on the card so whatever whatever a designer wants the card to do we write to the words that we put on the card so when a player reads it they know what the card does they know what to when they're in the game they know what the creature does they know what the sorcery does they know what the enchantment does etc so

it's the kind of the language that we use that the magic rules know how to interpret the effect and so where you know players know what the game does and how to play that's template i often call it magic ease that it's it's the language right magic has its own language it said so the game and the rules and the players and Magic Arena and Magic Online, they all speak the same language, Magic Ease. Okay, so let's talk, I want to talk a little bit about the history of templating, and then we're going to get into the nuts and bolts,

the nitty-gritty part of actual templating. Yes, in the beginning, there was none. Yeah, Alpha, so people were, I've talked about this a lot from a design standpoint, but it's true from an editing standpoint as well. Alpha was very card-centric, which means every decision was made for that card to maximize that card in a total vacuum. And so one of the things that Alpha did is you could have two cards that basically did the same thing, but the words weren't the same.

And that caused some confusion early on. Yeah, I mean, Magic, you know, when it started, it was kind of the first game. I mean, in one sense, it was the first game of its kind, right? Training card games were not a popular genre at the time. Now, there were certainly games. There were certainly board games. Board games had cards. So it wasn't completely unprecedented for a game to have cards that told players what to do.

So it wasn't like they were, you know, completely new. But in a very real sense, Magic was the first of its kind. So they didn't really have a lot to draw on when kind of putting this product out into the universe or the multiverse as it were um but when you look at a lot of the early cards it was kind of you know flying by the seat of their pants so um the early like time walk you know if you look at like an alpha time walk which i'm gonna start talking noticeably slower as I look at Gatherer to bring up. So while you look at it, let me explain something real quick. When Richard first made the game,

no one could predict Magic as the giant monstrosity of a game it became. And the idea was, look, you're playing with your friends. If issues come up, you and your friends figure out what happens. This idea of, you know, everything has to work the same so major tournaments can happen, that's all down the road. You know, and so really what Richard was trying to do is be evocative. He wanted the cards to be as evocative and as cool as possible. The idea of them all working the same,

just that wasn't super important in early Magic just because the early vision of Magic was not what it eventually would become. No one could have predicted the juggernaut that Magic would become. Right. So do you have Time Walk? Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. Do you have Time Walk? Do you have the Alpha Time Walk? Yeah, so like, Time Walk, very simple card,

very simple words, nailed it, right? What was, read me the text for Alpha Time Walk. Alpha Time Walk, take an extra turn after this one. So, by the way, a funny story, talk about templating. In beta, when they were playtesting, originally it said, target player loses next turn.

Right. And they misinterpreted that as meaning, when I cast it, I win, because they lose next turn. Right. And they misinterpreted that as meaning when I cast it, I win because they lose next turn. Right. So and this is a lot of a lot of what templating is, is kind of anticipating what the player is going to think the words mean. So you read the text and thinking about, OK, if I'm a player in the context of the game and in the context of not only while I'm sitting at the table, you have to think about like, okay, a player opens us in a booster pack, right? Because rules text isn't just important in the middle of the game.

You have to get the player to put the card in their deck, right? So when we're talking about what words we put on cards, a lot of that is coming up with attractive, fun text. At the end of the day, we're making a game, right? We want this to be approachable and fun. And, you know, we want players to be excited about the cards that they open. So you have to get the players to get to the table and put the card in their deck. Right.

And that's a tension with templating is you both want to make it as cool a card as you can and as understandable as you can. But you want things that are the same to work the same. So, like, it's important. One reason templating exists is if three different cards do the same function, we don't want them having three different sets of words, because that's going to confuse people, right? And so templating it sort of says, hey, this effect is worded this way, so every time you see it, you learn it works the same. Right, and then you have, so I'm just picking kind of the first alpha card I came to with reasonably long rules text is Keldon Warlord. So it's, you know, it's a creature,

it has Xs where its power and toughness are, and this was at the time very unusual because all the other creatures, at least most of the other creatures, had numbers there. So Keldon Warlord explains to you, the Xs below are the number of non-wall creatures on your side, including Warlord. Thus, if you have two other non-wall creatures, Warlord is 3-3. If one of those creatures is killed during the turn, Warlord immediately becomes 2-2. So one of the functions of rules text is kind of to explain unusual situations to you. Now, having one of your creatures killed is not what I would call an unusual situation. This function has sort of been taken over in modern times by reminder text.

Sometimes reminder text, there's kind of two flavors of reminder text. So we'll get into all this, you know, as we go on, but we don't have a ton of time because this drive, though fake, is not that long. There's kind of the standard explain a keyword reminder text. So this is kind of remind you, this is what a keyword does. Then there's the, this ability is kind of unusual. So let's give you an example of a situation that might come up to give you an idea of what happens.

And this is kind of what the Keldon Warlord text is hinting at. It's like, here's an example of something that might come up in play that we think will come up during play. And here's how it happens. And this, if we give you this example, hopefully the player can extrapolate what will happen in other common situations,

and you'll just have a greater understanding of what's going on. So why don't we talk about the hierarchy? So when you're looking to edit and template a card, what's the order of importance that you look at? Now, do you mean when I'm looking to template a card or whenever I'm looking to template a card? Exactly. We'll get to that later. So, kind of the, there are several factors that come into play or enter the battlefield, but really come into play when I'm looking to template a card.

The most important thing, actually, like practically, is that it fits on the card. Words have to fit. If they don't fit on the card, that's the ballgame. We can't print the card. Nothing else really matters. Yeah, a classic example of that was in Theros, the

equipment for the gods. We wanted to make it equipment, but there's no way to make enchantment artifact like equipment just didn't fit legendary legendary that's kind of its own deal right and then there's the the tax box yeah and they both like everything magic cards are only so big everything is kind of a fight for real estate right the some every once in a while though it's rarer than the other real estate fights the name and the mana cost will fight right if the name is really long and there's a lot of mana symbols in the mana cost they'll fight right that's kind of the easiest fight

to settle because names can usually just get shorter that's simple unless you're an underworld underworld cook cook and then then we have to right creative. Right, it has more of whatever. I'm not Ethan Fleischer. I can't do it. I think, like, of the, like, 25,000 cards plus in Magic History, I think one, and I can't remember which one it was, but I remember, like, one card lost a mana symbol to accommodate a name. Like, it went from multiple colored mana symbols

to fewer and more generic mana? Spirit of the Night in Mirage was originally Spirit of the Nightstalker. And that didn't fit, so we had to shorten that. We've done some name shortening. Several cards have had their names shortened, but I think, like, one

and maybe it was Nicol Bolas Planeswalker? No, that wasn't. Something. I can't remember off the top of my head. Okay, so number one, you gotta fit. But anyway, so that happens. Typelines are often a thing of contention. We have standards as far as how large text can be because cards are game pieces that should be usable by humans, you know, with reasonable eyesight limitations. We don't want the text to be too tiny. So we have standards as far as how

text can be. There are some variations. We do make exceptions on occasion because rules text is, you know, pretty awesome. It's what makes the game go uh abilities are great cards without abilities are sometimes awesome hi asamaru but not often um creatures that with abilities do cool things we like printing abilities abilities are cool um too many abilities can be overwhelming and don't fit on cards also we translate the cards as well so not only do we have to keep it short, but German, I know, ends up being longer on average than English.

Yeah, German tends to have more text. Some alphabets are unpredictable. We print in 11 languages, so we have to be accommodating globally. So, rule sex must fit on the card, and that applies to, of course,

the type line also, and the name, and the mana cost. Everything must fit. We want to make the game as approachable as possible. Magic is complex, or can be complex. We don't mind complexity. Complexity can often be a hook. It can be exciting. It can be, complexity. Complexity can often be a hook. It can be exciting. It can be, you know, the game is not tic-tac-toe. We want it to be intriguing and intellectually stimulating and all these other wonderful adjectives. We don't mind complexity. We don't want it to be complicated. We don't want it to be daunting. But we don't want people to get hung up on kind of the minutia. Like the rules are very, there are a lot of them, right? Magic is a big game with lots of interconnected pieces that interact in sometimes surprising ways.

And it's big. It's been around forever. And we put out new cards constantly um thousands and thousands of cards and they all work together right it's not like we put out magic you know 2021 and it doesn't really work with magic 1994 it's not like the madden games or whatever where they look similar and they're kind of basically the same game, but I can't import my 1994 team to, you know, it all works together. So it's a big, big machine that all the cards talk to each other and there's a big system that makes that happen.

So we want every player, when they look at their cards, to be able to read the card and kind of get a fundamental understanding of what's going on. And the way we do that on the ground level is templating. We use the same words, at least we try to. We use the same words to describe the same effects. Magic has a handful of things that it does, right, on a basic level. There's damage.

We move cards from here to there. Targeting. There's targeting. There's tapping and untapping. There's like a handful of basic actions that magic cards take. Then there's like some more complex ones. And every once in a while,

we'll innovate something new, right? There's like bidding. And then there's, you know, wacky things like mutate. And it's all just kind of like a handful of facts remixed for, you know, different things. And then we just kind of build on top of those building blocks. We're like the Hasbro version of the other building block toy. Someone will fill that in with the right trademark.

Dude, the Hasbro one. I can't think of the things. I don't have kids, so I don't have these references available. I forget as well. So also, not only do we have to make it work on the cards but remember there's digital as well like Arena

Magic Arena and Magic Origins no not Origins, Magic Online exists and you need to be able to like the cards have to not only work in our system but also computers have to make them work yes the computers and robots

that run Arena and Magic Online. So the Magic templating and the Magic rules are basically a language and a code that facilitates both human gameplay. That's of primary importance. We want, you know... And we also makes digital play possible.

And really, one of the advantages of templating is that as a player, you start recognizing the patterns of the words we use. And when you start seeing, like some of magic templating is a little bit long, right? like some of magic templating is a little bit long right you see an ability but abilities start showing up and you start recognizing familiar phrases like triggered abilities all kind of fit the same pattern like when an event happens effect or whenever an event happens effect and you start kind of recognizing these patterns and it kind of builds a shorthand in your mind and you stop really needing to focus on every word and you start recognizing phrases and it kind of builds an understanding you start building a language where you start understanding cards on an intuitive level because we have used consistent templating from excuse me from set to set and from

card to card which is why when we deviate we have to do so with a great deal of thought and care like if we stick a word in the middle of a sentence that changes the functionality of something we have to be real intentional and real careful about how and when we do it um because the more subtle we are about it the more likely players are to miss it and for it to be misinterpreted so you brought this up earlier so let me let me let's try this as an example let's use when and whenever as an example of how they mean slightly different things so like the audience can be aware. What does when mean versus what does whenever mean? So when and whenever, from a rules point of view, they're the same. They're two of the three words that indicate a trigger ability.

And we just use them. What's the third? I'm sorry? What's the third? The third is at. And they're just used in different contexts. At is used if we're talking about a part of the turn. So like at the beginning of your upkeep, do a thing. When and whenever are used if the triggered ability triggers on something happening. And we use when if we anticipate that the ability will trigger only once. And we use whenever if we anticipate that the ability will trigger more than once. So whenever you draw a card, you gain one life. We anticipate you'll draw more than one card. In most scenarios, you'll draw more than one card. This ability will trigger more than once. We do whenever.

And it's just a nod to English. Just sort of a subtle reminder that this ability will trigger more than once. We use when, like when this creature enters the battlefield, this ability will trigger only one time. Now, the creature may leave the battlefield and then come back. Now, we can get into the details, the nuances here, it's a new object. That ability is actually different than the ability it was the first time it was on the battlefield.

The important thing is, in most situations, that creature is only entering the battlefield one time. I mean, technically, it definitely is only entering the battlefield one time, but for practical purposes, that ability is only triggered one time. When this creature enters the battlefield,

you draw a card. Oh, and then I gain life because of the other ability so they're both from a rules point of view the same it's just a kind of a a little subtle thing we do for in english is this ability going to trigger once or more than once yeah i mean one of the things that i know is something you guys always think about is we want the audience to both understand it and get excited by it. And so, like, for example, sometimes we have fun. You know, sometimes the land still continues to burn. You know, like sometimes we'll use some templating

that really captures flavor and does something a little off the beaten track, assuming it's a unique thing and not something we're doing other places. Yeah, flavor can be a great ally of ours. We definitely look for opportunities to lean on it. They are not super common. I mean, rules text kind of has to be, you know, it kind of has to stick to the system

as closely as it can. Reminder text is a good opportunity to kind of inject a little flair, if you will. Like, Ops and Fireheart was kind of an unusual situation where other reminder texts weren't performing well in testing. Like, we'll often just test out different templates uh internally just to see how people react to it and we'll especially test it on people outside um the studio and just to see like people who have not seen the cards a lot um do they on first read do they understand it do they get it like what are their reactions to it? And so we just sort of like kind of threw a Hail Mary and just, I believe it was Del Lago, principal editor, fantastic editor who came up with that text and it just worked.

Like people just got it. And it's one of the more famous kind of offbeat reminder texts talked about to this day. So we'll look for opportunities when it's appropriate to do those sort of offbeat reminder text. They can be effective. The opportunities to use them don't pop up that often. I want to stretch that reminder text doesn't have the same rules weight. Normal templating, there's a very exacting wording we have to use so it matches the rules.

Reminder text doesn't sort of have that. It's not quite as technically exact. So we are allowed to be a little more Englishy, if you will, a little more common sense in the wording in reminder text, more so that we can always be in normal templating. Yeah, technically speaking, reminder text has no rules at all. It doesn't carry any weight. It doesn't actually... I mean, from a strict rules point of view, there are no rules. It's not actual text. It doesn't do anything.

It's strictly there, as advertised, to remind players what's going on. Now, there are some internal guidelines for what we do in reminder text. Reminder text can be incomplete. It can be vague. What it cannot do is lie. Like, we don't do, unless we make mistakes, which happens. It can't be incorrect.

It can leave things out, though, right? It cannot tell you everything. Yeah, it can't be incorrect it can leave things out though right it can not tell you everything yeah it can be incomplete and it can't hello take two it can't misrepresent what kind of ability it is for example if it's reminder text of a triggered

ability it has to look like a triggered ability like if it is a keyword that is a triggered ability, it has to look like a triggered ability. Like if it is a keyword that is a triggered ability, it will say whenever or when as appropriate, you know, it'll take the form of a triggered ability. It may not be the exact rules text it would be if it were rules text, but it won't not look like a triggered ability if it's a reminder text of a triggered ability, for example. So one of the tricks we use all the time, or we use a lot, is we're trying to do something. If we make a keyword out of it, that gives us the flexibility of defining it in rules text on the

card, in reminder text on the card, and then technically we can do it, you know, elsewhere. So sometimes when we have hard things to template, we make use of keyword technology to allow us to, you know, use the reminder text to explain a little easier than the technical thing we normally would have to do. Yeah, keywords are great for a couple reasons. One, it lets us inject a little flavor, whereas, you know, maybe we couldn't before because it lets us put, you know, a flavorful stamp on maybe an ability or maybe a collection of abilities, right? Like some keywords are actually two or more abilities behind the scenes. And yeah, it can be a space saving measure because it lets us kind of approximate what the rules text would be in reminder text.

approximate what the rules text would be in reminder text. Keywords can also sometimes be a space lengthening measure because whereas normally we could just put the rules text, now we have to put the rules text basically in reminder text plus put the keyword there. So oftentimes keywords actually make cards longer than they would be if they weren't keywords so a lot of uh people will sometimes suggest why don't we just make this a keyword to make things shorter when in reality they actually just make cards longer but that's sometimes a price we're happy to pay because the the card ends up a little more flavorful and a little more cool with the keyword but people sometimes don't understand that they actually just make their cards longer by adding a keyword

right but there's also a big difference between... One thing about reminder text is once the player understands it, they stop tending to reference the reminder text. So the practical language gets shorter, even if there are actually more words on the card. It feels shorter, even though it might actually be longer. Yeah, and sometimes, because especially nowadays when we're often producing multiple versions of a card they'll be you know your basic version of a card that appears in draft boosters but they'll also be like collector versions and other special versions sometimes we will chop reminder text off of those more uh awesome versions of the card. So sometimes having reminder text gives us a tool to, you know, omit it from other versions of the card.

So it makes us, you know, it lets us print some versions of the card that, you know, without as much text on it for, you know, people that don't need that reminder text. Okay. So something I, cause I can see my desk here. We don't have too much time left. One big topic I do want to talk about before we end is talking about the order of abilities. How do we decide, like, what order things happen? What order keywords happen? What order abilities? Like, how do we, the order in which we think the abilities will be relevant, with some exceptions. Haste is kind of always first because it's generally useful immediately and then never again.

There's one that comes before Haste, though, isn't there? Well, there are some exceptions. I mean, Flash is always the absolute first one, right? Because it's in your hand. Right. And then some keyword abilities go on different lines. So basically, they're kind of separated by paragraph by when they are relevant. So keywords that apply as a spell is cast go on their own line. So like Flash, and there are a couple exceptions to this,

so everything I'm about to say is kind of the general case. You will find exceptions to this, and we can get into semicolons, but I don't think we have that kind of time. So, Flash, things that apply as the spell is cast. So, Flash... Can't be countered. Like, I'm just trying to think of, like...

Can't be countered is another spell, right? Additional costs, alternative costs, things like that kind of appear on their first line kind of by themselves. And then, like, battlefield-relevant keywords for creatures or other permanents. that kind of appear on their first line kind of by themselves and then like battlefield relevant keywords for creatures or other permanents um haste appears first because it's generally uh you use it right away yeah it's good i'm sorry um haste appears sorry i'm speaking out of turn here flying usually appears first because uh kind of just by tradition uh flying is just sort of the most intuitive kind of keyword we have everybody kind of understands it

um you don't really like it used to flying used to have reminder text at least uh on commons and uncommons kind kind of explaining about not being able, can't be blocked except by creatures of flying or reach. We've sort of moved away from reminder text on flying because people just kind of get it. Even people that you just taught magic to, people just kind of intuitively understand what flying means. Haste, apologies for misspeaking before.

Haste appears last in the list of keywords before haste is you know useful on the first turn and then you just kind of forget about it so haste always appears at the end of the list of keywords and then uh as far as uh the other battlefield relevant keywords your village your vigilance your trample your reach or etc they're kind of roughly ordered in how we think they'll be relevant so uh defensive abilities are probably first because we think you'll be blocking before you'll be attacking with most creatures um things that are relevant as you're attacking, like vigilance would come before trample because you attack, you know, you don't tap to attack before you assign combat damage. So we sort of roughly work out.

There's a kind of basically just look at old magic cards to kind of get the pattern. When we have a new keyword ability, we just sort of think about, you know, where it is. Normally now new keyword abilities come with reminder text. And basically if a keyword has reminder text, it gets its own paragraph. So we just sort of work, kind of think about the logical flow. If we're talking about the order of abilities with other abilities, not keywords,

it's just sort of thinking about the kind of the order we think they'll be relevant in. So like enters the battlefield abilities will come before dies abilities um they'll be like every once in a while there'll be some exceptions like a dies ability will appear before a say an ability that lets you cast it from your graveyard um on some zombie cards or things like that so we just want to basically make it as easy as possible for the reader put everything in kind of a logical order make everything as clear as possible um we sort of operate under the assumption that you know players read their cards in order that's not always true they don't always read everything we all kind of operate the same way um we're

players too. So that's basically it. There are, you know, there are some rules. Some of it are judgment calls. And design, you know, gives us a never-ending buffet of odd abilities to kind of think about and argue about and talk about. So templating meetings are never a bore. Right. Templating meetings are never a bore. Right.

So just so people are aware, part of the process is usually during set design, although vision design will sometimes get really rough versions of things so we can understand where we're heading. But during set design, there are meetings that are called templating meetings where the lead set designer and the editor of the set will get together and talk through what are, A, the new mechanics doing, and then just individual cards. Where are there problem trials? Where are you doing something that Magic hasn't done before? And where are you doing something that there is templating? Sometimes you want to do something new, and the editor will go, well, we have words for that, and those words are this.

Right. As I said before, Magic has a handful of things it does. And every once in a while, something brand new will come out of the blue. And of attention to what players talk about what some of us are plugged into social media um we pay a lot of attention to the kind of rules questions that people ask um we pay attention to how people react to things like release notes and previews and, you know, how do people react to new abilities and how things are worded. And sometimes there are complex things and there are reactions we don't anticipate. And we just, we constantly try to iterate and improve and, you know, better anticipate how the public will react. And it's, in some ways, kind of an impossible task, right? The public is an incredibly wide swath of amazing people. The breadth of people that play Magic would astound you, right?

You can't anticipate every reaction, but you can. Right, and one of the things that I know comes up, we have to wrap up soon here, but one of the things that comes up all the time is the more enfranchised players want us to, like, continually shrink language and add more keywords because to them, they understand it. And so, hey, why isn't this a keyword?

You do this enough, make it a keyword. And then one of the tensions is we need the guy that's, you know, the person that's never played before who picks up their very first card to be able to understand it. And if there's too much vocabulary, it just becomes a wall they can't get past. Right. Should flying just be a little, like, wing icon on the pipeline? Like, there are good arguments that it should be there are good

arguments that it shouldn't be we could talk about this forever you know should magic like develop a complex system of iconography in year 27 i don't know maybe maybe not i you know these are conversations that take you know that just go on forever and ever and ever. And I've been, like, there are a lot of text improvements that we've made. There are text improvements we will continue to make that we are far from done. Magic, there are a lot of words. Word count is in some ways the enemy. Like, words are great. We love words.

Words communicate. But we definitely want people to love playing. Reading is great and fundamental and all those things we were taught in school. We want people to be excited by the words that they read on the card and not kind of scared by them. So anyway, here's my wrap up and then you get your two cents. Okay. Essentially, magic uses its own language. There's a whole team of people

whose job it is to understand that language, adapt the language, and invent new language when new things happen. And that templating is, I talk about design, and every week you guys come

and I talk about design. Templating, there could be a templating, I don't know if anyone wants a templating podcast, but there's just as much material in templating. The amount of decisions that have been made over the years, it's a very wide, deep, complex thing. And there's a dedicated team that has to constantly be working on that. And it's an ever evolving thing. It is not, it is not like, oh, we're done,

we've templated everything. It is a forever changing thing. And it's a whole skill set that there's a whole team dedicated to making it happen. And today's podcast is trying to like, just dip the toe into, hey, there's this major thing that matters. That is one of the many things that we have to care about when making the game. Well, now I'm just thinking that every part of the card could have their own podcast. It's like, hey, everybody, welcome to the power and toughness podcast this is gavin verhey and today we're talking about the slash it's two one day here on it's it's like week it's week 17 of my 22 week series on four three yeah let's talk about zero toughness today so anyway i part of my goal of today's podcast is just to get the idea that this is a very, like, there's a lot that goes into making a magic card. Magic cards are a very complex thing, and that this, the language, the language of what the card says is its own specialty. And like I said, the reason I brought somebody on,

I've been making magic cards for over 25 years, and I'm horrible at templating. I mean, I understand it better than the average person, obviously, but I am not a good templater, and I've been doing this forever, because it's a skill, and it requires a lot of knowledge, and it's forever changing, so I bring in an expert to talk. Well, it makes me feel better, Mark. I've been templating for about about oh dear, like 13 years now and I'm really bad at art.

So, anyway. And the cycle continues. So any final thoughts here? Because I can see my desk, so this drive's closed over. Oh, are we still doing the driving gimmick? That's my gimmick. We're driving to work. Great. Fantastic. Any final thoughts

on templating? Any final thoughts? Quite a drive. No. Thanks for having me on. Always a pleasure to come and talk about the inner workings, how the sausage gets made, the room where it happens, all that good stuff. Happy to

chat about how we do what we do. Always a pleasure. And hopefully your listeners got some insight out of it. I'll be happy to come back for the sequel or if you want to talk about any topics in the future. I don't know what kind of ideas you have, if you have any un-thoughts or...

Yes, Matt was my editor for Unfinity, which if you think templating is hard in a normal set, imagine the crazy things I throw at him in Unfinity. Oh, Unfinity. Is that a thing we can talk about? They know it exists. They don't know what's in it yet. But maybe I'll have you come back

and we'll talk about trying to edit magic cards when I ask you to do wacky things. We did some templating in that set. So stay tuned, cats and kittens and beings of all kinds, because we have some fun in store. So anyway, guys, I can see my desk. So we all know what that means. It means it's the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. Thanks for joining us, Matt.

Thank you, Mark. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time. Yep. See you next time. Bye-bye.