Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #904: Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty with Dave Humpherys

Episode Date: February 5, 2022

I sit down with Designer Dave Humpherys to discuss the set design of Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty.

I'm not pulling out of my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another Drive to Work, Coronavirus Edition. So, using my time at home to do interviews, which is harder to do in the car. And so today, I have Dave Humphries, and we're going to talk all about Kamigawa Neon Dynasty. Hey, Dave. Hey, how's everyone? Okay, so this is a set in which I led the vision design and you led the set design. So you and I were the two main design people on this set as far as leading stuff. So mostly I want to talk about set design because if people want to hear about vision design, I have a whole podcast on that.

So let's start the story of you get handed the set. I mean, no, you were on the vision design team, so it wasn't like you didn't know what was coming. But let's start the story with, okay, you put your set design team together and you start set design. Yeah, so, right, again, this was certainly a little bit of a tricky setting for me just in terms of, like, I'd played the original Kamigawa block.

But, yeah, I certainly don't know some of the trope space in the background here as much as a lot of other people. So I was really trying to reach out and look for other people who would be inspired and able to help sort of shore up my weaknesses. I reached out to people on our Duel Masters team to see if anyone from the Tokyo office could help out. And I pretty quickly found out that like Koichiro Maki would be able to join us at least for some of our meetings.

And then like also in-house Yuki Fuji would help translate for him during our meetings. And we also had some one-off meetings and just I wanted to get right off with a perspective of, yeah, like, you know, what's going to seem what's going to seem appropriate for like a Japanese Japanese audience and sort of the sensibilities that they felt would make sense. And so I was yeah, at first I was just really excited to be able to bring that perspective because I knew there yeah, there would be a lot of issues that we would want to treat right. And it was just I'd be curious in terms of like weighing in like what were popular mechanics and cards and what did we not do right? And so yeah,

Maki and Fuji were, were great help in getting the ball rolling. And we had a lot of other people super excited in house like Daniel Holt and, you know, and some of the other people coming from, from Vision like Ari. Yeah. So the, so one of the challenges of this set is normally when we do a return we lean heavily into the original source material mechanically as well as creatively so you know we go back to ravnica it's all about the guilds and you know normally we lean heavily into the mechanical space that we'd been before but this set the first time it was not mechanically well received right so one of the challenges was how do we go back to kamigawa but still like this wasn't this wasn't kamigawa part two from in a mechanical sense right yeah we spent a lot of time looking at the old mechanics and yeah it just frankly

there wasn't a whole lot there i mean yeah there there were there were cycles of things and whatnot that we definitely latched on to i mean ultimately right i mean even at handoff we didn't think that the main set would have ninjutsu um actually part of the conversations i was just alluding to and for some other just studies we did and surveys like really made me made me feel like we really needed to do ninjutsu or a variant of it i mean i know we were shying away from it because um what would become modified or was enhanced at the time right that there was a concern that like oh this this this is a big part of what got built in envision that you would put counters and equipment and and um you know and and auras on your creatures and that that just wouldn't work

with ninjutsu right you like you don't want to bounce your um creature that's unblocked um if you've invested time putting putting those components onto your creature and that ninjutsu didn't feel like a good good um good thing to be adding like we did actually try a ninjutsu variant that um that let you keep all those things and um in the end it just didn't feel like it was, it was worth adding in something that was kind of similar, but a little bit different with that rules tweak. I mean,

there were some confusing things in the rules tweak in terms of explaining it. Like we'd have to like, I mean, it's a small thing or it seems like a small thing, but even just coming up with a name that was going to be satisfying was maybe going to be tricky. And I mean,

also in the end, just the gameplay was pretty swingy. Like if you could, can I explain, let me explain what we're talking about. Cause the audience, I mean, was maybe going to be tricky and and also in the end just the gameplay was pretty swingy like if you could let me explain what we're talking about because the audience i mean you and i know what we're talking about but um the mechanic in question was um like ninjutsu but you you changed the creature but everything attached to the creature stayed like you exchanged it rather than unsummoned it and put a new one in it sort of took its place if you will yep yep right so yeah so i mean again it seemed like a good solve and i think like and mechanically it solved a lot of the reasons why we didn't want to

include the mechanic in the first place but then it ended up among other besides the things that i mentioned it just ended up being like kind of too strong that you could ninjutsu and keep all that stuff. It was pretty swingy if you were able to pull it off. And I think we also realized the more and more we playtested anyways, if we just use the original ninjutsu, a lot of the modified rewards are mostly in

red and green, and with ninjas being blue and black, and with ninjas you're trying to go wide rather than build up your stuff. Like there actually didn't end up being as much overlap between those things in a competing way as you as we might have thought. So it all just played out pretty well. And it was nice to be able to return to the original mechanic. And then, yeah, I guess like channel is one of the other returning mechanics, which is just a super versatile mechanic.

You can kind of do anything with channel. It's almost too versatile in some ways, and I definitely use that mechanic to try to be my smoothing mechanic. There are a lot of things you can do with channel, but none of the other mechanics on the set lend themselves to being smoothing mechanics, which by that I mean just like if you mana flood or mana stall or get the wrong mana or whatever like that we can lean on channel let

your cards be modal and so you can write like if you can do something if you have less mana or more mana and and i also tried to lean into designs that also like just even beyond that like help you get lands or help you like help you cycle the draw card or things like that. Yeah, actually, my biggest strike against channel is kind of like my strike against kicker. It's just so universal that it kind of covers 8,000 other mechanics. Right, we did end up putting it like in order for a card to have channel, it needs to be an artifact or an enchantment, which doesn't mean a whole lot mechanically. It just gives you a little bit more of an expectation of where to find the mechanic.

There is one exception, though, by the way. So when we hand it over, we said just artifacts and enchantments, but you did add it to one other card type. One big exception, yeah. Also for lands, yeah. I felt like, yeah, we put it on lands. exception yeah also for lands yeah like i felt like yeah we put it on the lands i felt like that was um yeah just like i i'm probably one of the biggest detractors from doing legendary lands in general so i mean it's kind of funny that i ended up doing a set with legendary lands here but i

felt like yeah channel channel alleviated enough of my concerns about uh legendary lands to give that a shot here and i feel like it it tested well enough and it's nice to be able to do something like legendary lands once in a while for flavor um so yeah but if you if you draw multiple copies hopefully you can find another use for your copy um you know certainly you can still draw multiples and wish that you know they weren't legendary but um right that there was enough flexibility to try that out there. And then as well on those, I have the cost reduction on those referencing having other legendary creatures to be a further callback to some of the original Kamigawa themes and also, frankly, to help differentiate them more from the Zendikar Rising MDFC lands,

because otherwise they'd be, yeah, I don't know. It just helped distinguish them a little bit more. So let's talk a little bit, since you mentioned Legendary. So one of the things, probably one of the biggest things about original Kamigawa block that kind of got the notoriety was the fact that we had so many legends in it. Like at the time, just so the audience understands, like, a set might have four, five, maybe six legends in it.

And Champions of Kamigawa said, like, every creature at Rare was a legend. That was very unheard of at the time. And I think the... I think the Populative Commander really is one of the things that kind of puts this giant spotlight on champions of kamigawa you know many years after the fact so how did you handle the legendary theme right so i mean the tricky thing is that you know between now and then we've sort of made

made like legends matter sort of became a bit of a dominaria theme or you know certainly we played it up in in that set um so i was a a little bit worried about stepping on the toes of that for what we might want to do in the future there. I did like, you know, it was, I forget who pointed this out to me, but I believe the original Kamigawa block has 102 possible commanders. And if I'm not mistaken, only one of them is multicolored. Yeah, that's right. So, like, I don't know.

It more or less just occurred to me that like you know wow if you love this plane there's just so much we can ease there's so much low hanging fruit in terms of like we can just make we can make multicolored commander and you know just in and of itself that's going to have a ton of appeal here now and like that yeah

that beyond that we wouldn't necessarily need to do a whole lot more there's there I promise you there's there's a lot going on in the set and we wouldn't necessarily need to do a whole lot more. I promise you, there's a lot going on in the set, and we didn't necessarily need to go too deep into that space. I think there are some callbacks. Besides the land, there are a few other things, too. But I chose not to play that up as a huge theme. Right, but one of the inside jokes in R&D is that

a Dave Humphrey set has a lot of legends in it. Oh yeah, there are a lot of legends, there just aren't as many cards as maybe you'd expect referencing legends, I guess. Sure. Well, once again, I think the thing you hit is there are a lot of legendary creatures and legendary other things in this app, so that

feel of legendariness is very much there. Legendary Matters wasn't played up as much, right, because Dominaria is around the corner, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, there are a lot of legends. Yeah, I can't remember the count, but yeah, it's up there, as you said. A lot of my sets have been

getting that notoriety or whatnot. Okay, so what else, like, what was the most challenging thing for you of set design for this set? Like, what was the, what were the big challenges? Yeah, I mean,

like, let's see. I mean, there are a lot of little things that were kind of in the weeds that are maybe fun to talk about. But yeah, I mean, some of the, yeah, I mean, the ninjutsu stuff I talked about was tricky. I mean, just in terms of a process standpoint, it was actually kind of hard to balance out the artifacts and enchantments in terms of just process-wise, I had to commit to art and concepts

where, like, which creatures did I want to be artifacts and which creatures did I want to be enchantments and sort of making sense of that, too, just in talking with Emily in terms of, like, the creative side of things and how that would appear on art and not be confusing but we've done artifact sets, we've done

enchantment sets, we haven't really kind of done a mix of the two and those characteristics matter a lot in terms of some of the early deadlines that I needed to hit in terms of art concepts. So again in some ways that's kind of in the weeds but I think also kind of just an interesting thing in terms of art concepts. So again, in some ways that's kind of in the weeds, but I think also kind of just an interesting thing in terms of the flow of

the process. I just want to explain something for the audience so they understand this. So we have what we call art waves, which means at certain times we send out art and normally in a large set, usually there's two art waves. Sometimes there's a third depending on how it breaks. And what happens is you have to commit to things, like

you have to commit to some amount of art, and the tricky thing about a set like this set is an artifact creature looks a certain way, and an enchantment creature looks a certain way, you can't just later change it, and so when you have art that kind of locks you in mechanically, it becomes more tricky on sets that do that,

and that's what dave's talking about is like this set had a lot more what the art is means what the mechanic is in a way that's harder to change it later right so yeah yeah there was a lot of just like you know oh we have the samurai should it be an artifact samurai or an enchantment samurai and yeah like what's you know how is this how are all these things going to enter interlock in terms of like the color pair themes and like what you know what's going to end up kind of like siloing a card into a certain strategy like oh only only this one color pair is going to want this if we if we choose this type or don't choose this type and trying to trying to you know just get get all the mesh coming together in the right way where all these pieces interlock in the

right way and that like we're not overdoing any one theme and that yeah we have some cards that are options for decks and maybe cards that actually do kind of intentionally flow to one deck in a draft um if we want it to yeah it's it's interesting that i artifacts versus enchantments seems like a theme we would have done long before now. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that it wasn't until we built up a lot of artifact conventions in our design and a lot of enchantment conventions. Like, we didn't kind of have the technology really to do this until now. And that there's some themes that seem like, why didn't we do this long ago? But I just didn't think we have the infrastructure to sort of build it long ago.

Right. And to elaborate a little, I mean, it's further complicated by the fact that we sort of have, like, white and black, which we're trying to strike a balance between the two, right? Like, what you said there almost implies sort of like a two-sided conflict, but that's also not really what's going on here. Yeah, there's also, like, white and black as a color pair is trying to integrate both artifacts and enchantments. So, yeah, there was a lot going on in terms of, like, how all that had to come together. And, again, even just making sure that there were enough of each type to make sure, like, that the white-black color pair worked and things like that. As well as the color pairs that were more, like, green-white is more about, like, really all enchantments. And blue-red is more about all artifacts. Again, those are at least things you can do. I try to have my sets be

pretty open-ended in terms of how you can draft them. Yeah, one of the... I guess Scars of Mirrodin was the classic example where the way it settled when it was finished was it was two one side or the other, that either you chose one side or you chose the other side. It was hard to mix and match the two sides.

And that one of the things we do now is even in sets that have a conflict from a flavor standpoint, we still need you to be able to play pieces from both sides in some decks, right? And so, like, this set had to be something where, hey, you could

play one side, you could play the other side, but we needed to give you reasons to mix and match them. And a lot of the structure of the set was built around how and why would you do that. Yeah, I liked also how Modified played into that and that it had incentives, like, right, that you could get stuff

for plus one, plus one counters and, right, equipment and auras, right? Like, that was bringing in, again, multiple card types and, like, a reason to be playing both sides as well to maximize trying to be able to do that. So, one of the things that, like, it was interesting in handing this off was

in some ways the set had two elements to it, right? Like, half the set was kind of like Kamigawa Part 2, where you were doing a lot of old things, like, you were referencing the old set, and part of the set was, like, brand new, like, in some level, we did a brand new Japanese

themed set, you know, it was disconnected in some way, it was a brand new thing. How did you bridge those two things together to make them feel like it was one singular thing yeah yeah that's probably a tricky one to answer i mean i i mostly it was yeah really trying to rely on on other people's feedback of making sure it still felt like enough of the old i mean yeah and particular again people like dan Daniel Holt and others were like, is this still doing justice to enough of the old?

Cause again, in many ways I was trying to build something new and exciting. And I feel like in many cases, that's where some of my strengths lie as a designer. So like I'm certainly pushing, it was pushing on the new here, but right. Trying to make sure that we still had, you know, plenty of stuff that was going to appeal to the fans of the plane for many many years um and yeah you know that that came through like again i think like having ninjutsu like helped a ton in terms of that balance like i think the sagas themselves and playing up the traditional side really let us help deliver especially on the creative side of like what might appeal to some of the old fans so i i felt like yeah it's kind of funny in a way where like the the set itself was kind of

speaking to that balance of like right that there's there's a traditional element that's going to apply in many cases maybe to some more of the traditional fans and again like the right the newer side maybe will apply to yeah some of the more recent players so it kind of had that real world overlap that was kind of interesting. But yeah, I was pretty excited in terms of just some of the new stuff we did here. We haven't touched on the creature equipment, which are kind of cool in their own way.

But that felt like a really cool, new, exciting thing to be doing. We certainly haven't touched much on vehicles either like right there's the whole a whole kind of technology aspect that we were uh able to really play up here and and make feel very new in terms of the new side of things okay we brought a bunch of mechanics let's talk some of the mechanics so let's start with reconfigure that is the equipment that sort of comes to life, the creatures that can become equipment. So, it's funny, when I look at this mechanic, I always, listens are the thing that I always go to.

The very first set I led, which was called Tempest, there are these creatures that can become auras. And you go back and forth between being an aura and being a creature. How did you think of Reconfigure? How did you put it in your head?

Yeah, I mean, I frankly loved it. I mean, again, I don't know that I had much to do with creating it, but yeah, I thought it was great initially. I just, conceptually, the idea of a creature that could kind of hop on and be some of your body armor or weapon or whatever just really resonated with me. So I loved it i mean i feel like somebody right there there are some elements to like that could create repetitive gameplay i mean like equipment can can kind of create repetitive gameplay if you're not uh careful with it you know sort of certainly that was on my mind i mean

similar like with the samurai mechanic that i ended on so that was certainly my mind. I mean, similar, like, with the samurai mechanic that I ended on. So that was certainly a note. But, I mean, one thing I did like about reconfigure is that, like, equipment has a problem. Like, if you build an equipment deck, like, you can draw, like, all your equipment and not enough creatures, or you can draw, like, all your creatures and not the equipment, and then your deck's not doing anything. Like, either way, there's, like, a potential for, like,

not your pieces A and B not coming together and things just not really working out in a game. And, like, so, I mean, I think it's really cool here that, right, that these are, right, if you just draw a bunch of these, you have creatures to put equipment on and, like, yeah, things just kind of naturally work out in that way and, you know, your gameplay is going to be pretty solid no matter what. And I also like at the same point where, like, at some point these are, like, likely to be creatures, right? Like, when you play them, they're creatures, like like it you know certainly you can maybe equip them right away

but then if you kill that creature it comes back as a creature there are going to be windows where your opponent can interact with these cards as creatures and almost every deck limited constructed otherwise has ways to deal with creatures so it it also eliminates some of the like frustrating parts of like oh like i can't get rid of this equipment i I just keep doing this over and over, and it's not fun. I don't have, you know, enough ways to deal with this. So, like, there are going to be ways to interact with these cards, which, like, so, I don't know. I kind of just love the mechanic.

Okay, so let me talk about another mechanic. This is one that changed a little bit. We'll talk about this. Sagas. You mentioned Sagas. So when we handed over the file, we had Sagas that turned it into creatures. But one difference is we handed over as a one-sided thing, and

we made note, my document I handed off, I'm like, this could be double-faced, but we're going to try doing a single-faced. So, what... Let's talk a little about the evolution, how you ended up with double-faced sagas. Yeah, it's funny that you mention it. I actually had forgotten that they were single-faced when i

started um so yeah i'm trying to remember how well i can remember that story um yeah i mean i think it just felt natural for them to be double-faced cards i i think now i'm vaguely remembering just conversation like what's going to be the most awesome card and i mean some of this may have been been talking with like aaron or you know aaron forsyth or bill rose and whatnot in terms of like right just trying to sort out like, you know, what's the best presentation of the card? Like, you know, if you have to try to capture like somehow like the saga story and the creature itself,

like that's not as cool as just being able to, yeah, separately show you the visual of the saga and then like a visual of like this really cool creature that you get at the end. And I think the genesis of the change probably was then mostly from what I can remember, just in like, we want to show you the,

the best visual output of, of what we're trying to convey on the mechanic. Yeah. I mean, one of the challenges of double-faced cards is they do such a good job of like telling the story and showing the, you know, the change between like, It's so good at doing that. And it's very tempting.

I don't know. I do agree that the Saga creatures are just better being double-faced cards. But I'm also sympathetic to like, okay, not every set should have double-faced cards in them. Right. We did make one pretty late.

Actually, maybe the biggest late change in the whole process was actually on sagas which was for the most of play testing they just transformed which meant that they basically had haste um and so yeah pretty late in the process we decided that like uh that's just we need we need to give opponents another turn to interact with them as a creature um and then yeah then we can put power back elsewhere on the card, and it's not just all about this creature getting to hit you before you've had a chance to interact with it. And again, in a silly sort of way that's totally invisible to our players,

I had a lot of kind of goofy worded cards that were like putting counters and stuff on permanence so that you could put your counters on your saga so when it transformed it would still have the counters and be modified and like once we decided to have it exile and return then i i have a say i was able to clean up a lot of cons to read more like normal comments but that's that's sort of just a side side amusing story but yeah um i was trying to get the best of all worlds and the end, yeah, like by having it, having them exile and return as a creature, and then like that, yeah, you'd have a turn with them

blocking instead of coming right over. Ended up, I think, just playing a lot better, and the games weren't, weren't, we were finding Limited was like a little bit too much pressure going on when they all had haste. Okay, another mechanic. So this one's an interesting mechanic. So we're talking about modified

so this is a mechanic that was in another set that you led that i think you removed from the set and then uh this is a different set that we put it in and this time you didn't remove it from the set so um the mechanic was originally made for call time um so let's talk a little bit about what why not call time why here more about why here i bit about why not Kaldheim? Why here? More about why here, I guess, than why not Kaldheim. But what was it like sort of getting a mechanic for the second time that you got rid of last time? Yeah, I mean, yeah, certainly that means I'm going to have some reservations. I mean, I'm going to struggle to remember back to Kaldheim on why it cut. I mean, again, Kaldheim had a lot of stuff going on, too.

I think the only remnants of that is on one card I can think of. There are probably more, but like the... I think there are three cards that reference being enchanted or... And some of those ended up with slightly different wordings. I think that expression of the mechanic, I believe, was... Again, maybe it was more modified to start with, but then we moved to caring about if your power was greater than your starting power, your base power.

Oh, right, right. Yep. But yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I was a little skeptical. I mean, even again, right. Everyone has personal tastes. I mean, modified here, I was still kind of skeptical on. I was also feeling the pinch of like it being a little bit tricky with

ninjutsu and, you know, to me personally, like, like I kind of like it being a little bit tricky with ninjutsu and you know to me personally like like i kind of like it wasn't something that i kind of got as much as some of the other stuff but i knew like a lot of the a lot of the vision work had been built around it and there were a lot of people on my team that really liked it i mean you know like i i think in the end again a lot of this was just me listening to other people like i was like you know asking people oh do you like this and like you know again from my from my perspective i've seen things like kind of hoping people are going to say they don't like this so i can you know change it like you know and but that wasn't the feedback i got a lot of people really liked it so like again that's right i don't know like just a funny thing in

terms of way like right a lot of my job is just to listen to what other people's feedback is like it's not a mechanic that's like i find exciting, but a lot of people loved it, so it stayed in there, and it's a pretty big part of the set. It's also an interesting tale on how magic has a lot of things it can do, and that different things make sense in one place and don't make sense in another. You could have the most awesome mechanic, and it just doesn't fit somewhere

because it just doesn't tie into what the rest of the set is doing. then in the right environment it you know like i think modified just worked really well here because it linked the two sides in a way that was really helpful and the the material we were playing around with you know a lot of the the japanese pop culture stuff like it's very big in in a lot of the stories that you see you know coming, coming out of Japan. So. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a new thing to do and a different thing to care about. And yeah, as you just said, and I said earlier, yeah, like I liked how it tied together where each, each, you know, or auras and equipment were both lending a thing from their respective side of

the kind of the spectrum of things in terms of tradition to tech. Like also, I think I eventually figured out like one of the things I kept moving, I kept moving more and more of those designs to kind of almost be more in a tribal space. Like I was a little bit worried about the gameplay might be like, I'm just going to toss everything on this one creature, right? Like a lot of the initial designs were, if this is modified, it gets,

it gets better. And then like you, like there wasn't enough reason to kind of diversify how you were modifying things and i kept i kept making more and more designs that were like kind of more tribal bonuses like the more modified creatures you had like the better you know that's where the rewards would be and then like i don't know i found that sort of uh right that that that alleviate a lot of my concerns that like i'm not about, like, somebody throws all their threats on one creature and, like, it either wins the game or it doesn't. If it gets answered, you lose. If, you know, it doesn't get answered, you win.

Like, that's just not the gameplay I was necessarily hoping to build up. But, like, as I made more and more of the rewards trying to tell you to, like, put a counter on this and an enchantment on this and an equipment on this one and, like, if you have four of them, you get a bonus for having four of them. Like, I don't know. I started liking the gameplay a lot more. Okay.

So we're, I'm almost at my desk here, but one final thing that you brought up, I want to talk about, which is vehicles. One of the things like very, very early, like one of the, I think go all the way back to exploratory design. Like when we said we wanted to sort of play around in Japanese pop cultures and I'll stress when I say that, I mean, pop culture from Japan, created by Japan, about Japan. Mechs and giant machines are just such a big part of a lot of the storytelling. And so we were very excited by vehicles representing mechs and things.

So talk a little bit about making vehicles. Yeah. I mean, as you said, there's just a ton to play with from subject matter and stuff here, right? Like at least with vehicles, like there's not a ton new that I did in terms of, right? Like there's not really a lot of mechanics that I can think of.

I mean, like there are a ton of cool, interesting car designs. Like there are a ton of vehicles in the set where I feel like I do pretty new and novel stuff that's really fun, fun, exciting. So like, right, this was more just like, oh, there are these really cool things to draw from and we can make cards that are really top down

for those particular vehicles. And yeah, there's a lot of livable stuff. But yeah, we didn't really do any reinventing of the wheel here those particular vehicles and yeah yeah there's a lot of livable stuff but yeah there's there's we didn't really do it really yeah reinventing of the wheel here in terms of how the mechanic works they're very on the mechanic right but this is a good example where one of the one of the things that top down does for you is it allows you to say hey we're going to capture something and then we can just use existing magic mechanics to capture something. And it's not that we read, like,

vehicles are mostly vehicles, but they have a flavor, like, how we handle it flavorfully is different than a lot of other worlds. That, like, if I just show you random vehicles, you know when I'm showing you Kamigawa. Yep, yep. Yeah, no, they're, yeah,

I love a lot of the cards here. So anyway, this was, I will say, David, it's funny. I'm so excited. I work on a lot of sets, obviously, but this was one of the sets that I was super happy with how it ended up. I mean, your team did a great job. Kind of the whole role of how this works is Vision says, here's an idea for something.

And then set design just makes it way better, you know? And I really appreciated like you guys did such an amazing job. The set turned out really, really good. I'm really happy with it. Yeah. Thank you.

Um, so I want to thank you for joining us, Dave. It's fun. I love having guests on and it's especially exciting to talk about current sets. So thank you for joining us. Yeah, it was fun. Yeah. It's, it on, and especially excited to talk about current sets. So, thank you for joining us. Yeah, it was fun. Yeah, it's tough

juggling all these sets. I mean, I guess you know way better than I do, but it's like, what did I do on this set? I know. I always joke, like, every once in a while on my podcast, not my podcast, on my blog, someone will talk about that. I go, let me list every set I have to currently care about.

I list all the code names and everything. And like, it's always like, here's 15 sets I have to keep in mind. So it is, it is a little daunting. But this set does stand. I have more memories of making this set than the average set just because there are a lot of very specific things in the set that I remember. So, but anyway, I can see my desk. So we all know what that means. It means it's the end of my

drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. So thanks for joining us, Dave. Yeah, I hope everyone enjoys the set. And for everybody else, I will see you next time. Bye-bye.